Stranger Danger, Sarah Payne etc, what do you tell them?

[WideWebWitch]

I'd be interested to hear what other people tell their children about the potential dangers of adults.

My ds is 4.5 and we've discussed this a couple of times. The first time was when he came back from seeing his father for the weekend (ex-dh) and my ex mil told me that he'd run away from her in Brent Cross shopping centre (quite a big centre, NW London). We were all together when I was told and ex mil had with her a newspaper with a photo of Sarah Payne on the front page. I therefore told ds about the fact that Sarah had run off (I know she hadn't exactly, but...) and that a bad man had taken her and killed her. I explained that he must not run away from me or any adult with him because of this danger.

We've had a similar conversation this morning as he legged it while I was paying in Sainsbury's and I was furious with him. I've said:

• There are more good people than bad people in the world.
  
• It's very unlikely to happen to you as long as you do stay within my sight (or mil, dp etc)
  
• You can't tell who is good or bad from the time of day or just looking at them.
  
  I got lots of hard questions: "why do some people kill children?"; "is it always men?" "where were Sarah's mummy and daddy and do they miss her?" "where did they find her body?" All horrible and I answered them as best I could.
  
  He is a friendly cheerful boy who does say hello to people and he only ocassionally runs off from me. So, I do want him to be frightened enough not to do it since the Brent Cross episode shook me (although I wasn't there at the time and he was safely returned after someone took him to lost children and tannoyed ex-mil) but I don't want to scare the wits out of him too much or to destroy his innocence.
  
  What do other people do? Has this been discussed at length already? Thanks. Oh, and he also opened the front door to the electricty meter man recently and shouted up to me that "there's a goody at the door, I've let him in, can you come downstairs?" I've told him he does not know he was a 'goody' and he mustn't do it again(I was in the loo).

[salalex]

I'm interested that you've told your ds so much about the dangers of other people. I really haven't gone into much detail with my dds - 4 and 7 yo and my eldest turns off the TV if stories such as the Sarah Payne one ( or any other stories of disaster, death etc come on). You've made me wonder if I should tell them more. I live in Scotland in a small town and I just don't feel the risk is so great here. Am I sticking my head in the sand? I feel much happier myself about walking around late at night on my own too. I do tell them not to run away and to stay where I can see them when we are out of course. Actually, my 7yo has just started walking some of the way to school on her own, so perhaps now is the time for a chat. Thanks for making me think about this WWW.

[janh]

www, I know just how you feel. My elder son, when small, was always completely outgoing and fearless, would disappear wherever we went and would talk to anybody, anywhere, any time. I used to do more or less what you are doing - I don't think, with a child of that character and temperament, there is much you can do beyond that. As you say, scaring the wits out of him or being explicit enough to destroy his innocence isn't a good idea.

I hate those questions - why do people kill children? Why do they want to hurt them? How do their mummies and daddies feel? Hard enough to find answers to them for an adult, never mind a small child.

I used to say more or less what you do. Most people are nice (or at least not nasty!) and don't want to hurt children - but if anybody ever says "come with me", you should say you have to ask your mummy first. And if someone tries to make you go then you should scream and shout and kick.

As far as running off in crowded places is concerned, could you tell him that if he does it again he will have to wear one of those stretchy things which attaches to the adult he is with? If he is aware that they are really intended for younger children it may make him want to avoid the embarrassment.

Can you keep the front door locked when you're in, so that he can't open it, at least until he has got the message about not letting people in until you have said it's OK?

He is still young enough to keep forgetting what is OK and what isn't - as he gets older sensible behaviour (at least in this area) should become a bit more automatic.

HTH!

[Enid]

Mmmm...I personally feel that is too much information for a 4.5 year old. Or am i sticking my head in the sand? I also feel that, sadly, if someone wants to abduct a child they will, they are very persuasive and it would be impossible to teach a child to be wary and streetwise enough to avoid someone that was really intent on stealing them away. Sarah Payne was 8, and it was a tragic coincidence that she was alone for those few minutes that her abductor happened to be passing. And Jamie Bulger was taken by other children, so do you teach your child that even children pose a potential threat?

I think it must have been very worrying to hear that your son ran away, but I think you should try not to project your own fears onto your son. It is extremely unlikely that he ever would be abducted or that someone sinister would try to gain access to your home.

I'm sure there was another thread similar to this a while ago, maybe about Frank Furedi's How not to be a paranoid parent (I think that was the title)?

[Eulalia]

Seems like you've got the balance right WWW. I've not yet said anything to my son as I still think he's a bit young. I think we have to get it in perspective that the number of child abductions have not gone up - they are the same as they were 25 years ago. There is just a lot more publicity now.

I was a bit horrified at the reaction of a friend of mine. Her husband brought home a work colleague to stay the night at their house. He didn't really know him that well and she'd never met him before. She said she couldn't sleep because she didn't know what sort of man he was and her 2 year old daughter was also scared. I think she was over-reacting and is surely teaching her that all men are potentially bad. Seems a bit sad but I am afraid probably quite common.

[WideWebWitch]

Thanks everyone. Salalex, I live in a small town in the depths of the country too so don't feel there is that much danger here - unless from complacency? But ds is in London every other weekend and there is so much more potential for getting separated from ex-dh and getting lost. (I used to live there too, so don't think London is a scary dangerous place, but it is bigger!).

Enid, he had already gathered something about Sarah Payne from hearing adults talking about it (not me) and had previously asked a few questions. I suppose I decided that better he knew what happened from me and that I scared him slightly (whilst reassuring too that it's unlikely) than he runs off in Brent Cross or another big place again...

And I know that stranger danger is no more likely now than it was 25 years ago, just that there is more publicity etc. Still... I don't think I'm a paranoid parent, just a realistic one But I will look at that thread - it's interesting to hear what other people do.

The door is locked (and dp is downstairs) as I type. Eualia, I'm definitely not like your friend and am trying to teach him that being friendly is good and people are generally nice. Thanks everyone.

[bee]

I usually tell the boys, when they ask why people would want to hurt children, that something has gone wrong in some people's brains and they can't tell what is right and what is wrong. Not sure if this is medically/psychologically accurate but it seems fine for them.

[lou33]

My second child is only 5 now, but at the time Sarah Payne went missing it affected her greatly, to the point that even today she still asks about her. She became very aware of stranger danger as a result of her death, so if anything good can come out of something so terrible, this was one of them. So I don't think 4.5 is too young, as long as it is explained to them on a level they can understand.
Btw my oldest is 10 and her current school is too far away to walk to, but the local school she could attend is only about 350 yards away. I still wouldn't let her walk there on her own though, not just because of strangers but because traffic is a big problem. There are many different forms of danger I suppose.

[janh]

lou33, I was going to mention that (with ref to wandering off in supermarkets and thus, possibly, car parks) but I thought maybe that was another issue. You are right though, there are many dangers and traffic is another form of stranger danger.

[ScummyMummy]

I agree with Enid and Bee. Personally I don't think that young kids need to hear about the specifics of child murder cases- or other distressing news cases, come to that- unless they are asking specific questions. It IS VERY rare for child abductions and murders to happen, thank God, and, as Enid said, probably no amount of warnings to the child would prevent a determined abuser/murderer from carrying out their plans.
I would in any case be hesitant about telling a child that s/he should not run off because of stranger danger. I think that it's possible that such warnings could instill a sense in some children that most people they meet are likely to be evil and therefore to be avoided. Mine are so obsessed by goodies and baddies at the moment- too much Spiderman and Thunderbirds, I think- but still touchingly confident that the people around them are likely to be goodies. And I think that's really positive.
I tell mine not to run off because they might get lost and that might be scarey for them and Mummy. I've also talked to them about what to do if they do get lost and told them to approach a policeman or a woman with children- sounds like your son managed pretty well in that respect, WWW! I guess I might change my mind and say a bit more when they are old enough to be regularly outside on their own- whenever that stage comes.

[janh]

Scummymummy, they get taught about "stranger danger" as soon as they start school. Unless you have a child who is a professional absconder, preschool, you probably can't appreciate how worrying it can be.

Granted, abductions as such are rare (and murders even rarer) but there are other situations better avoided and if you can make a wandering child aware that he or she needs to look out for them, then he or she can look after him- or herself better. It would be nice to avoid the issue alrogether but it's not always possible.

If your kids don't run off "because it would be scarey" you are lucky.

[ScummyMummy]

Appreciate what you're saying, janh and you're right that it isn't really an issue for me as yet. However, the one time one of my boys ran off in a department store I promise you my overwhelming fear- and I was starting to feel utterly sick by the time we spotted him a good 10 minutes later- was that he'd somehow got out and was playing with the traffic, not that someone had taken him.
I do think it's possible to unintentionally scare kids witless in the name of informing them about important issues that they are powerless to control! I well remember working myself into a complete tizzy of fear, to the extent that I couldn't sleep, aged about 10 or 11 after my teacher told our class in graphic terms about the destructive power of the atom bomb. Lying awake terrified of the bogeyman abductor doesn't sound any more pleasant, though it's long been a traditional feature of many childhoods, I suppose.
I agree completely with equipping kids to look out for themselves, and have no problems whatever with what you said to your son, janh, about asking Mummy before going off with someone, and screaming and kicking if someone tried to make him go with them, but I'd be very wary of saying more than that to a primary aged child, still less a pre-schooler- ie: talking in detail about horrific specific cases- unless they'd heard something and were asking you about it. Unfortunately, it's all too likely they will hear something and then I suppose that giving the kind of reassurance that you, Bee and WWW offered- that it's very uncommon and most people are not like this- is all that one can do.

[mears]

Here's a scary story. I had gone to visit my mother with my ds and 4 children. I had to go to the shop for my mum and when I was driving back I saw my dd who was 5 at the time walking along the roadtowards my own house with a teenage girl.
My heart stopped when I saw her. I stopped the car and crossed the road to get her. The girl had found her wandering along crying a few streets away from my mum's. She had gone out of the front door after I had left looking for me. For some reason she thought she would walk to our own house which is a few streets away in the same town
I thanked the girl for looking after her and later phoned her parents because I did recognise who she was. I was worried that she might be concerned that she had handed my dd over to anyone. I sounded so stupid on the phone!
When I returned to the house no-one had noticed anything. They all assumed I had taken my daughter with me.
I emphasised to her to never go out the house again without asking. I also emphasised that not all strangers are nice like that girl was.
I would never have thought I could lose a child but that incident gave me a real fright. Children need to know that there are some 'bad' people out there so that they do not just trust anyone. The police reiterate that at school regularly. It is sad but it is a fact. Don't ever think that it won't apply to your child.

[mears]

meant to say dh not ds

[ScummyMummy]

Not trying to be controversial at all, but I'm interested in why you feel that is a scary story, Mears, apart from the obvious horror you must have felt on finding that your baby was able to let herself out and was alone and lost on the streets, which must have been awful for you. As I understand it, a teenage girl helped your distressed daughter and tried to deliver her back to your house. Surely that's really positive and what we would all want should such a situation arise? I'm sure it was very clear that you were her mother from your reaction and your daughter's and that was why the girl was happy to hand your daughter over to you. Also if you recognised the girl slightly, chances are she also recognised you and knew that you were the mother. Sorry if I've misunderstood your post- as I said I've not really reached this stage with my kids and am not trying to teach my grandmumsnetters to suck eggs here!
But while I definitely agree that kids should be warned not to trust everyone, not to get in a stranger's car, etc etc, I also think, as Enid said earlier, that there's a real danger of projecting our own strong fears about abduction onto our children (when the real risk is very small) and thereby making hard for them to deal with a fairly common situation- getting lost. I just wonder if it would be effective to emphasize what TO do in a getting lost situation- eg: approach a policeman/woman with kids/phone home reversing charges- as well as being clear on potential dangers.

[mears]

What was scary was that I think I am a good parent yet a lack of communication with my dh resulted in my dd being able to just walk out the front door with no-one aware that she was gone. She could have ended up with anyone. It is positive that she was found by a nice girl.
I think I was trying to emphasise that situations can happen even though you think it is impossible therefore all children should be warned about strangers etc.
I do agree with you that you do not need to go into graphic detail though.

[Enid]

I worry a bit about contributing to this thread as dd is only 2.5 so I haven't really come up against this problem yet. She is very trusting and will go and talk to anyone (in shops etc), and at the moment I view this as a lovely and positive thing (especially as she can be quite shy too). But yesterday we were at a mini-farm looking at rabbits etc, she was toddling along behind me. Suddenly a man appeared from one of the barns (a perfectly nice man!) and she ran up to me immediately, looking worried, and said anxiously 'mummy theres a man'. The poor man looked mortified. If he had been a woman I have no doubt that I would have said 'oh look, she's a nice lady, hello', or something, smiling at the woman. But I didn't say anything, just took dd's hand tightly, as subconciously I was pleased she had run to me. I felt guilty afterwards that I hadn't been more light-hearted about it.

However, I truly believe that if you have an absconder, trying to scare them absolutely will not work and can cause more harm than good, especially at 4 years old. At that age I would have though that it is just an impulse, and that not much thought goes into the decision to make a break for it.

[tigermoth]

www, I've been quite open with my son about the Sarah Payne case. I didn't go in to graphic detail, but did answer his questions. I have also explained time and time again about the dangers of getting lost and letting strangers approach you. I suppose I started to do this when he was around the age of your son - about 4.5 and I haven't stopped since.

He needs a sense of danger if he is to play out, as he does. Allowing him to play out is the most postive reinforcement I can give him that the world is a good place. I then feel it's my duty to warn him of the dangers.

I would feel uneasy if he played out believing that all adults are autumatically good. I would have failed him. As Janh says, schools reinforce the stranger danger and traffic messages anyway.

My son, like yours, is a confident and outgoing boy. If he had a different disposition I would change my approach. I felt my son could handle quite blunt facts about abductions and kidnappings even from age 5. For instance, that abductors commonly approach from behind, in the street, and simply put a chloroform-soaked rag over the mouth of their victim. It is so easy to bundle a small unconscious child into the back seat of a car and drive off. Yes, I know this sort of abduction is v.v. rare. My son knows this too.

I concentrate on two things when we talk about dangers:

Firstly, how awful he would feel if he was lost - so being lost is not a good idea. Then, we run through what to do if he is lost ie approach a shopkeeper or uniformed person. If not, go to a family - not a lone adult. And if a strange adult touches him, even taking his arm, he must move away from them, and if he can't, he must make lots of noise.

IME giving my son freedom tells him the world is a good place - usually. The clear warnings then help equip him for it properly.

So, www, don't hold back on this - your approach sounds spot on to me.

[Cityfreak]

I am sure that you have to bring your child up in a way which suits where you live, eg nice small town, scary city, etc. I have started explaining to my toddler that some people are not nice, and when he runs away in a crowded place, he might meet someone who is not nice. I think it is just the same as saying, eg, "Don't climb up that bookshelf, or you might fall down and have an accident which will hurt you." We came across a dead lizard, then a dead butterfly and then a dead bird recently, and I took the chance to say, "Oh, dear, look, this poor animal is dead. He can't play any more. His life is gone. I feel sad." I believe that this is better than trying to protect the child forever from the realities of the world. I am not, however, prepared to give real explanations to him yet at an adult level.

[WideWebWitch]

Thanks tigermoth.

[Enid]

I'm finding this thread really interesting because I really hate the idea of having to tell my dd about abductors etc, but realise it will probably have to come one day.

Tigermoth, is that really true about abductors? Do they really do that? And if they did, what on earth could a child do about it? If someone walked up behind me and put a chloroformed rag over my mouth I'd be done for, all the warnings in the world wouldn't help. I can understand warning children not to talk to strangers, to make a big noise if anyone touches you, never never to get in a strange car, but I don't know about the chloroform and rag business.

I had a very paranoid mother who was always telling us the absolute worst case scenario ('If you don't come back when you are called someone will come and take you away and you'll never see me again' ) so I get a bit confused about what is necessary and what is just too much.

[winnie1]

Personally, I think one has to keep a balance between media hype and wrapping ones child in cotton wool. My daughter has been taught from a very early age to look after herself in terms of knowing her phone number, name, address etc, and she was always taught to look for an adult in authority to approach if she got lost (uniforms are really good here) and I have always answered questions when they have been asked (the hardest on returning from a friends when she was maybe 6 and asking what an abortion was as it had been an issue on Eastenders at the time and they had watched it!!!) As for stranger-danger I haven't taught my daughter about this specifically but about trust generally. More people are abused by people they know than strangers and whilst I can't think of one person I know whom I would not trust with my child I wanted her to know that certain behaviour was inappropriate and that she must always voice her objections to things she doesn't like/feel comfortable with. I suppose we started talking about such things when she was about four although she wasn't allowed to do anything on her own until she was ten. It may seem that our discussions are about responding in the event rather than about preventing the event but I really felt that I wanted my daughter to learn to trust in her instincts and not be fearful of all men/strangers. As others have said if someone is determined enough they will abduct a child whatever and should we all live in this heightened state of fear waiting for something dreadful to occur? Like others I taught my daughter not to go with strangers for fear of us loosing each other not for fear of 'other' dreadful things happening.

I was raped in my very early teens and two men tried to abuse me prior to this. I was 16 when I told my mother about the rape and 26 when I told my father. I don't believe either of them could have prevented these things happening to me. I never told eithr of them about the abuse. It all scarred me and I found it extremely difficult to trust men (I also know several women who have been abused/raped as children or teenagers) so I am not looking at any of this through rose-tinted spectacles but despite these experiences I believe it is essential that children are not given too much information too soon. They have to be able to handle the information they are given and only you as a parent can decide when this is. My daughter is now 12 and has an understanding about sex and we have talked about rape (not that rape has anything to do with sex)and issues that come up on Newsround but I don't dwell on any of it and encourage her not to dwell on it either because I don't want her worrying unduly. The world can be a cruel place and children learn this soon enough. I found it disgusting seeing children involved in demonstrations spurred on from the News of the World response to the tragic case of Sarah Payne.

[winnie1]

Going back to Tigermoths point I don't teach my children that all adults are good, anymore than I would teach them that all white, middleclass, Guardian readers are good...

I understand what you mean about teaching them of the dangers tigermoth. Forewarned is forearmed but I would simply say that one has to get the balance right and the right point for that child.

[tigermoth]

I think you have to look at your child and what you allow them to do by themselves, and them tailor the information you give them to fit. As you say Winnie, it's all about getting a balance.

My oldest son is extremely outgoing and loves talking to strangers. He was desperate to play out from an early age - 4.5 years. As we gave him more and more freedom, we gradually explained the dangers, seeing his reaction as we went. Hearing facts, IMO, made him more aware why we were so strong on playing out rules and therefore less likely to break them. Because rules like not going up to a friendly looking stranger in a car did not make a lot of sense to him, without knowing why.

However, I spend much, much, more time telling him what to do - the positives, rather than talking about possibly scary facts - the negatives.

[Hi]

I am raising this thread again as I am worrying (most likely unduly) about sleepovers. They seem to start so young now. With a child of 7/8 or even younger how do you cope with sleepovers with families you do not know anything about really. I know that they say all too often an abuser is someone really well known but how do you try to tell your child it's ok to say no, then, when they are being unreasonable about bedtime tell/explain that no is not ok at such times without them worrying too much. Sorry I'm rambling but it's getting increasingly hard to let go, though I want to so that the children can grow healthy and happy with full lives. School is one thing but when you know nothing about a family except that their child is in the same class as yours, how do you cope with trusting your child to the care of someone else?!

[mears]

I don't allow sleepovers with families that I do not know well. My dd was asked to a sleepover last year age 7 for a birthday. I don't really know the girl's mum so I picked her up from the party about 10pm. DD was upset but soon got over it. I am also select about who syats here. Some may think I am a killjoy but there are plenty of years ahead for sleepovers when my children are at a less vulnerable age.
I think sleepovers are a ridiculous concept that have got completely out of hand. Bah humbug