How do your 7-8 yo boys deal with peer-pressure?

[frogs]

This is going to be longish and convoluted, but I'd really appreciate some other experiences.

Ds (Y3) is a July baby, one of the youngest in his year. In terms of schoolwork and general social confidence and ability he's towards the top of the class, he's sporty and at least averagely tall. But he's locked into a somewhat destructive relationship with a group of boys in his class, led by one boy in particular (let us call him Leon) who is one of the oldest in the year and clearly has ambitions to be the class alpha male (tall, sporty, good-looking, clever and more streetwise than my ds).

I've known for years that there were tensions between ds and Leon, who does go out of his way to try and assert his superiority, which ds is absolutely not prepared to accept, even though he knows he's a bit outclassed. It came to a head over lunch today, when I told him that the music teacher at school had asked me to get ds to take his instrument into school for an informal audition to play in school concert. Ds flatly refused and became hysterically tearful quite quickly. Turns out he was worried about Leon and his little mates laughing at him, which is apparently a fairly regular occurrence. My observation whenever I walk past the playground during school hours is that ds is usually to be found in the noisy thick of things, having what appears to be a fine time. But whenever he comes home in a bad mood, there's always a Leon angle to whatever story I finally manage to winkle out of him.

I don't think this is bullying, but I do think it's a boy pecking-order thing. There's possibly also a race angle to it (not racist, though) inasmuch as the leader and a few of his mates are mixed race and therefore clearly ahead in the cool stakes. The white boys in the class have largely carved niches for themselves that avoid conflict with this boy (one has the nerdy maths-whizz slot, two others are the class August babies and bimble about together letting the male politics of it all go right over their heads). Some others are happy to go along with letting Leon be the leader. Unfortunately both ds and Leon are in the same ability group, and are thrown together quite a bit, although the teacher knows there are issues and has done her best to minimize it.

Any ideas? We've resolved the music thing to ds's satisfaction (I said I'd talk to the music teacher and ds could do his audition at lunchtime or after school rather than in the class music lesson, which I suspect is what he was worried about). But I know the issue will resurface just because there is such a profound personality clash between the two boys. Unfortunately it's a one form entry school, so they're both in it for the next four years.

[frogs]

Anybody?

[MarsLady]

Hiya frogs!

This is a bit of a toughie! What has the teacher put in place to deal with this?

What friends does your DS have other than LeonTheAlphaMale (LTAM)?

Just trying to remember what things came up for DS1 and how we/he dealt with it.

[MarsLady]

You see... to a certain extent... oh hang it! I do actually think it's bullying. It's such an emotive word that we are often loathe to use it. I don't think that there's a race issue though. (Trying to not to be biased here babe).

I guess the thing that comes to mind strongly is this: Your DS needs a massive self esteem fix. Not that I think he's lacking per se... but so that he has a real sense of his own worth so that LTAM isn't quite so important.

It's very hard at that age (and I have been known to pray that certain boys fall out of my son's life).

The question is.... and so far I'm not proving to be a help at all.... how to give DS that boost.

When was the last time that you talked to the teacher about it? Are you able to agree a strategy or strategies together? Whilst moving the music audition was helpful, clearly it won't be a long term solution. So.... I'll need to think more on this. I hope other MNers (probably Custy lol) will come along with some good thoughts. BUT I do think it needs to be dealt with even though they are 7-8.

[thinking hard face]

[VioletBaudelaire]

frogs, could your DS perhaps be given a certain classroom responsibility?
something that will improve his self-esteem, but that eradicates any direct competition with 'Leon'?
Would the teacher go for that?

[Bink]

Your poor ds.
No helpful experience (we didn't write the book on boy group dynamics round here, as you know) - but I'd guess the crux is how LARGE Leon looms in ds's life - he seems to be being a filter for ds's whole school experience, is that putting it too strongly? In which case I would think that the overall objective has to be "dilution" of Leon, and I'd do that by involving ds in things - with a bit of challenge and adrenaline to them themselves - that have absolutely nothing to do w/ Leon. So that, perhaps, ds in due course will find himself thinking about yesterday's rock-climbing lesson (eg) and thereby not actually noticing Leon not picking him for the football team.

[frogs]

I think bink is right that the crucial issue is how LARGE the relationship with this child looms in ds's life. I don't think it's the single defining issue of his school experience (which is probably why I haven't defined it as bullying), but it just keeps coming up.

Mars, I don't think it's a race issue as such, just that Leon's little group consists of a handful of smart, clever, sporty older boys, who happen to have a headstart in the streetwise cool stakes on account of being mixed race. The other kids in the class, whether black or white either go along with Leon and mates, or they just don't engage with it and do their own thing. Ds's trouble is that he does engage with them some of the time, will play with them when they let him, but is not enough of a yes-sayer to really be accepted.

Leon is actually a perfectly nice boy (though clearly an Alpha Male with too much testosterone and not enough to do!) I know both the parents and they are lovely. I think it's ds's own conflict really he's very much a joiner, a team player at heart, but is also coming to realise that certain things are important to him that are not shared by his peer group, and starting to feel that he doesn't want to have his agenda dictated by these other boys. But unlike dd1 who was always quite happy to paddle her own canoe regardless of what anyone else thought, ds does also want to fit in.

He does plenty of outdoor activities (mad keen cricketer, music and we've booked him in for a week's residential activity holiday in Somerset to the place dd1 has been going for a few years). Which I'm sure will help. He does have friends, and I think is generally liked at school though not cool enough to be uber-popular. But I still find myself wishing that he was in a two-form entry school so that we weren't stuck with the same ruddy group dynamics year after year.

[MarsLady]

The problem would still have reared it's head in a two form entry school though I think. Our primary is a one form entry (so many similar aspects to our lives Frogs... we MUST meet!)

I think.... you need to find a way for DS to know that you support his decisions where LTAM is concerned, but he's still a bit little to have to deal with it iyswim.

You need to remind him of his heroes... you know in Cricket etc. Maybe I should just send my DS1 round to pick him up from school so that LTAM sees how cool your DS is.

[MarsLady]

Oh and I bet your DS and LTAM are best mates by the end of Y6!

[DimpledThighs]

Frogs

I am sorry to read about your situation - in lots of ways I have a simliar thing with my DS yr1. He is very able but unfortunatly this seems to lead to a lot of competition in the class in this group. Part of me just thinks this is part of life lessons and let them get on with it - esp. if you see your ds having a 'fine time' inthe playground, but the music thing must have been hard. shame when being teased is in the equation so young. With my ds I have tried to encourage a lot of things not related to this group, but still in line with what he likes - e.g. kung fu and he also mixes with some of the other children not in this group due to my friendships and who he invites round for tea. It is important to point out that this group is not the be all and end (if he will listen is another matter.)

The race issue does not ccome into this - could this just be coincidence?

Another incidental thing that has helped has spending been spending time with much older and much younger children - learnt that it is all only in relation to his school class.

Sorry - dash off!

[frogs]

I bet your ds is super-cool, Mars! Ds would be so impressed. The 20-something quasi-professional-rugby-playing son of a friend of my mum's sometimes takes ds out to the playing field for quick game, and we get a blow-by-blow commentary on repeat loop for about 6 weeks afterwards.

I think there would be similar issues in a two-form school as well, but most of the 2-form+ schools I know mix the kids round at least a couple of times during there time there. Whereas in a one-form entry, by Y6 they've been sitting in a classroom with the exact same group of kids for 8 years. Dd1 was part of a little group of alpha females in her class -- intermittently it was like living in the Miss World dressing room, but by Y6 they were so sick of each other they couldn't even be bothered to argue.

I don't think Leon and ds will ever be best mates. L and his little group are all oldest or only children used to calling the shots, and ds as the younger brother of a very bossy and sharp-tongued older sister is highly sensitised to people pulling rank on him. Prophetically, the only punch ever thrown at any birthday party I have given involved my ds decking Leon because L had pushed ds's face into a bowl of crisps. It was his 4th birthday...

[frogs]

their time there.

[MarsLady]

"Prophetically, the only punch ever thrown at any birthday party I have given involved my ds decking Leon because L had pushed ds's face into a bowl of crisps. It was his 4th birthday... "

Then I think we need not fear for your DS. lol!

Gotta go out but if I think of anything else I'll post. And if you ever need to borrow DS1 and his supercool rugby, football, basketball playing self just holler! And he's 14! Little boys love bigger boys!

[DimpledThighs]

also kung fu, rock climbing, kick boxing, go karting etc. all carry A LOT of status inthese situations (not that that is what you necessarily want - but it can't hurt!)

Also point out that Harry Potter sticks up for Neville and is not in the in crowd!

[squidette]

This one hits home to me, frogs.

My eldest son is in a similar situation - in Y3 with one of his classmates having carved the label of 'head of the boys' for himself but in a very aggresive, taunting, teasing way. Some would say he is a 'bully'. Bad news for any child that he doesnt like that day.

I dont have any advice, only suggestion of what i have done that has worked Very Very well for my son. I taught him to stop feeling like a victim, then i helped him to stop being one. From a personal view, i am very against 'anti-bullying'. I was taught that sticks and stones may break my bones but words can not ever hurt me. I still think this is true and it pains me to see our education and social system teaching our children that this is NOT the case, and that words from another are hurtful and 'bullying'. I want my children to grow up accepting of others and themselves and that some people who say mean and nasty things, or exclude, or reject for jobs or even dates in later life, is more to do with the person saying the mean thing that it is to do with him.

Nearly everyday my son would come home saying he hated school because of XXX or XXX didnt let him play or XXX made him cry. While my heart breaks at this because i love my son and want him to be happy, another part of me wants to teach him to find ways to feel better on his own about this. At one point i went into school with my son so he could talk to the teacher about how he felt. The teacher was great and moved seats and a work table space, but this is where i began to think that i was starting to teach my son to be a victim of someone elses unpleasant behaviour. He still comes home with stories about XXX, but he knows now that words are just words and he doesnt have to like them and he can feel upset (validating feelings is important) but there are ways that he can think and act differently so that is not all XXX's fault. They now play together when the circumstances are there in place so that they do play together (ie, a natural law!) and when XXX is feeling in a 'mean mood' my son understands that its nothing really to do with him and is more encouraged to ignore him/play with others/even play on his own.

This may be against what many parents nowdays have been encouraged to do, but the ideas of 'anti-bullying' and helping children to build high self-esteem are two of the most damaging notions in society at the moment.

How to help your own child, rather than trying to stop the 'bullying' is quite a sensible site with some good solid suggestions that you may want to try with your son. I use the really simple 'is that true?' question a LOT of the time when i get tales of XXX saying he (son) is ugly/cant play football well/has funny hair. Some times he says 'yes' and we talk about if he would like to change that part (hair gel or footy lessons) and sometimes its 'no' in which case i reply 'Oh, i am glad you know its not true' (in the case of ugly} with a great big smile.

Sorry if i have rambled on a bit, but your post took me back to when i started to see this and how i tried to help my son. It was hard to do this, as so many times deep inside i wanted to make it all go away for him (and everyone in the world to like each other and get on well!) but i think in reality what i have done is help him to think more for himself and not let this other child be too Big in his life.

As you say, they are going to be together for a long time. It is a difficult situation and i am sure you will find a way that suits you and your son to deal with this. I dont know you frogs, but i am thinking of you.

[frogs]

Thanks for that squidette. I've bookmarked the site to have a proper read later.

As I said earlier I haven't defined it as bullying because I don't think ds sees himself as a victim. We had a long chat earlier about jealousy, and ds accepted that some of the time Leon says nasty things because he's jealous or threatened by ds's refusal to toe the line. And ds admitted that he sometimes also felt jealous of Leon because he was so cool and had so many other boys doing his bidding.

In fact my ds has won several class prizes recently for various things which has done wonders for his confidence (hence my enthusiasm for him to play in school concerts) but has also upped the ante in terms of nasty comments like, "Oh, you only won the science prize because Miss X knows your mum's a scientist and she helped you".

I think he will just have to find his own way through. It is so hard for boys, isn't it? Girls can be right little cows, but the status thing is so much more upfront with boys, and they mind so much. And ds is so outclassed in the street-cred stakes, bless him. He came home before Christmas one day saying, "Leon says there isn't any Santa, it's just your mum and dad. So I said to him, 'How come then, that when you leave a mince pie and a glass of sherry out, they're always gone in the morning?!'" And he was so pleased with himself for his 'victory'. Bless.

[Gameboy]

Hi frogs - I also had a similar experience with DS1 (Yr2) last year. A confident, bright and sporty (football obsessed) boy (let's call him 'B') was making life a misery for my DS. What was worse was that he HAD been a childhood friend (from NCT classes) but as they grew up, their interests diverged. We had issues about B telling DS that he was crap at football, and any team he was in would lose, that boys who wear glasses can't do sport, and even examples of him ruining DSs work and then lying about it.

DS was also very bright, one of biggest/tallest/oldest in class and top of every subject, but was nevertheless intimidated by this little jerk.
In the end we talked about some of the various scenarios and 'role-played' soem different endings for them which gave DS a way out without having to be a victim, and also focused on his strengths and the other boy's weaknesses, so e.g.:

B: Hey, , you're crap at football...
DS: Yup, I don't bother with football much, but y'know what, I LOVE swimming, and just got my level 6 last week. And last week I got my first karate belt. How's Your Karate?? Oh, yeah, sorry, you don't do that do you, you just play football all the time...

A bit mean, I know, but it worked, and I can remember DSs face when he came home and told me that he'd actually played out one of the scenarios, and that B had backed off.

I also had a quiet word with the teacher and explained the issues, and asked her to try to avoid setting up situations where they were 'head to head' in competition for things (which had often been the case the previous term).

We also kept doing a lot of reinforcing of what DS was good at relative to others, and making a point of rewarding him for achievements etc, and making sure he got an opportunity to take in certificates etc to school (There were a lot of football trophies around at the time).

The issue now seems to have largely resolved itself, although they mostly mix in different circles in class now.

[frogs]

Anybody else have a take on this? I've looked at the site squidette linked to, which seems to have a lot of sensible ideas.

[Dinosaur]

Ummm...

DS1 hasn't experienced this as yet, because there's not really an overlap between sporty and clever in his class, and he's very definitely set his face against any kind of competition in the sporty stakes. And he has no concept of street cred.

Apart from music, what other things do they laugh at him for?

[Tortington]

the kid needs some street cred obviously

can you not buy him a skateboard and take him to a skate park.


your a scientist frogs - thing balance
ying & yang

to balance out nerdy musical gifts.

one needs trendy stuff to enhance social status.

BMXing is also good.

any 'extreme'/ street sport.

NO ONE is better than a kid who can pull off an 'ollie' at 7 years old!

[frogs]

He didn't seem sure himself, dino. I think he's just trying to get a balance between wanting to fit in and wanting to be himself, and this irritating lot are rather throwing him off balance.

Custy, he's not nerdy really I think dino will back me up on that. Not supercool, but possessed of at least average levels of cred and a reasonable quantity of trendy gear. I suspect actually they're teasing him because he's encroaching on their territory apparently there's been a fair bit of "Oh, you think you're so good at cricket, blah blah", or "you think you're so good at spelling, don't you". Skating/biking doesn't really seem to be where it's at in London -- I'm guessing not enough people have the space. It's all bloody footie really, and they get so blasted competitive about it.

[Tortington]

ahhh,
i didn't mean thee to be an inference of nerdyism. but yes the 'thing' of street cred is often dependant on place of living within the country.


dunno then, sorry! ying yang thing dictates he must immediatley do something horrible to balance out the goody two shoes i win everything and am good at everything lable.

the only thing i can suggest is bog washing other kid.

sorry

[frogs]

Cheers for that, custy. Luckily it isn't the kind of school where these things get sorted by flying fists at dawn. I think he'll just have to tough it out, and keep telling himself they're all silly and he doesn't care what they say.

My baby. Sniff.

[ScummyMummy]

lol at ollies, custardo. I think mine would fall off their bikes but I will start training them up immediately.

I don't know, frogs. This all sounds very familiar and I think you are right that it's all about status and pecking order and wanting to be popular. Squidette's site looks pretty good to me. My boys recently joined in with and, worse, came up with ideas of their own to enhance, a class culture of teasing a particular child. The school are on the ball and all the kids know it's wrong, especially mine, but when all together they seem to find the lure of possibly impressing each other by getting a reaction from this child (and boy does he react, unfortunately for him) almost irresistible. We came down on the boys like a ton of bricks, obviously and I don't think they will be at that particular game again. But I must say- and I hope this doesn't sound like I'm blaming the victim here because that's the last thing I'd want to do- I also don't think this child will stop having a tough time generally until he stops reacting because, unlike your boy, he is a massively easy target, which is a heart breaking thought (and partly why I was so utterly livid with my sons). Made me think a lot about bullying and remember being on both sides of the divide as a child. I do think, sadly, that kids need to learn, somehow, if they possibly can, a genuinely "talk to the hand because the face couldn't give a shit" attitude when their peers take the piss, as well as learning to be kind in circumstances they find difficult just because it's the right thing to do. Bloody hard, both.

Hmm. Not very helpful to your specific situation, I know, but I do sympathise. I do think my boys' awareness of their medium-high but not super popular social status within their class was one factor in their nasty behaviour, just as your son's awareness of this makes him extra sensitive to Leon's teasing. Really hope things will settle down for all of them in due course.

[Porpoise]

Hi Frogs
Bit late to this thread but wanted to add that, like Squidette, your situation sounds rather familiar!
My ds1 (now yr4) had similar problems with a group of his classmates last year.
For what it's worth - and I could be completely wrong, of course - I think year 3 is a funny old year for the boys.
It's when it starts to dawn on them who is good/not good at what (the girls generally suss this out a lot earlier!) and then they sort of flail around trying to deal with all the feelings that throws up. Not very pretty.
With ds1, we did some of the stuff Squidette did with her ds - and a lot of talking with him about not rising to teasing because it'll only make them carry on.
And it did pass. He's really happy in year 4.
HTH

[tigermoth]

Stunned reading these messages. Frogs, in particular. You know so much more than me about the social dymamics of your son's class. How do you acquire this knowledge? I am impressed and worried - do most other parents know this sort of thing?

I have a year 3 son, youngest in class, August born. Small one-class-per-year school, 24 children in each class. He goes to playdates, parties, school functions, church, beavers, so I have a fair amount of contact with his classmates, but I hardly know all their names let alone their differing personalities or the pecking order if it exists in his class.

OK, I have a handle on the personalities of 2 or 3 boys, but ds is super-secretive about his life at school - rarely complains, rarely explains.

But I can also see this from the perspective of having an older son who was slightly more forthcoming about his school day. I never knew things in as much detail as you, but from the picture I got, his friendships and the class pecking order weren't fixed from year 3 to year 6 or even from term to term.

IME my son and his friends didn't really think deeply about where they fitted into the class and act accordingly. Perhaps I missed a lot?

But anyway, I think you must allow for boys' developing abilites at different times - my son suddenly 'got' advanced reading in year 4 for instance and moved up two sets. Any pecking order based on ability and talent must get skewed when this happens, surely? Also,I'd factor in my son's temporary crazes for different toys and games ie my ds1 thought Pokemon cards (and the boys who played them) were cool in year 4 but by year 6 it was football and the school footballers who were his favourite friends and he said the pokemon players were a bit nerdy. And when one child leaves a class or another joins, new friendships are formed.

I realise I have not said anything about Leon. If you feel there is a big personality clash then I would think this is unlikely to go away. But I think you can be more hopeful that the pecking order between the class will naturally shift and change as everyone progresses through school.