Clueless about discipline - please help !

[skybluedaze]

Nightmare trip into town this morning with nearly 4 yr old DD and her very well-behaved little sister. My eldest is full of energy, ideas, affection and all things wonderful. She also loses the plot very fast, becomes quite manic and can be very tricky. Normal, I know but sometimes I think I'm just too easy-going. I've always been keen on talking things through and resistant to time-out / toy confiscation / and endless reward charts but is it time for a re-think? What's a suitable punishment for a nearly-4 year old when we've collapsed through the front door after I've had to practically carry her home she's been so naughty. We've had lunch but instead of calming down she's still spoiling for a fight. I can't make her stay in her room - although she's clearly exhausted - forget about this morning and move onor try and impose some sort of consequence ? Aaaaaggghhh !

[FrootLoopy]

I've always done bottom step time out. Close enough that I know what they are up to, but away from me so they have a slight feeling of exclusion.

Oh and time out only begins when they SIT there QUIETLY.

And actually, for them, that small time away from everything works. Sometimes they are tantruming because they're overwhelmed, talking it through does nothing to stop that feeling of being overwhelmed, it could even exacerbate it.

If they don't stay there, you just put them back. Sadly a 4 minute time out can take a VERY long time to enforce sometimes. But if you give in they will keep battling you over it because they know there's a chance that they will win.

[skybluedaze]

Thanks for replying frootloopy - I just can't imagine my (temporarily) furious four year old sitting still for four minutes without being carried back to the step a gazillion times and I went off that when I tried to do the carrying back to bed thing (bedtime also a battle) and ended up doing it about 30 times until we were both in pieces..... But something's got to give. I've tried ignoring bad behaviour / loads of positivity but this has been going on a long time and while she's fab a lot of the time I feel her little sister is getting shortchanged as all my energy goes into dealing with big sisters outbursts.... I will take a deep breath and try time out

[mumnosbest]

Sounds just like DD1 at that age and also where I'm heading with DD2 in a couple of years. Persevere with time out, even if it takes a gazillion times. It will be worth it eventually. Also let her know you need time out too to calm down as you're very angry and you'll tell her when you've calmed down and are ready. My stairs have a door so I used the bottom step and held the door shut untill she calmed and went quiet then time out began.

[skybluedaze]

Thanks mumnosbest - I think the battle scares me and I worry that it's just another way of her being the centre of attention ( there will be a lot of running off and screaming ) and I worry that I'll be getting into a battle that I can't win without physically restraining her ( she's tall and strong ) and that seems wrong...

[FrootLoopy]

The battle will lose its appeal for her after awhile - especially if she sees that she has missed out on things because the time out has gone on so long. Be honest with yourself, how many times have you ever seen a punishment of this sort through? Or do you try to distract her out of a tantrum, or jolly her out of it?

If she keeps running away you could put a toy into 'time out' until the next day for every time she leaves time out. The depletion of favourite toys will eventually register with her. Children aren't silly, they do understand consequences.

At the end of it all you say 'well that was silly, instead of a 4 minute time out, you lost 30 minutes - you could have watched 3 Octonauts shows in that time, 3 whole shows, gosh, that's a lot, isn't it? And poor bear and doll will have to sit in time out until tomorrow now, that's very sad for them. And that's not because you were naughty by doing X (whatever action caused her to get her initial punishment) but because you kept running away from time out. (DON'T take a special bedtime toy though, that would be too cruel.)

It may help to have a discussion about using time out as a punishment BEFORE any bad behaviour. Sit her down and have a 'chat' about what will happen if she's naughty or mean to her sister, and that the punishment will be 4 minutes in time out. Get her to repeat to you what the punishment will be. (1 minute for each year, and she's a big 4 year old now). Then when the time out happens she will KNOW what's going on, and it will make the post time out/tantrum discussion that little bit easier.

Funny incident was once when I was visiting my sister, I told DS1 off for something and he went and took himself off to time out without my sending him - my DSister just about wet herself laughing as quietly as possible. She said 'I gather time out has happened a few times before?!'. (I did call him back!)

And this is a boy who took a LONG time to get used to the idea. I'm not saying he's always easy to send to time out, but he knows that I mean it when I put him there. Every now and then we have a mammoth one, but then the next ones swing back to normal.

[girliefriend]

Tine out was never very effective with my dd but confiscating a favourite toy would normally do the trick!

PLus reward charts are really good at this age. Dd loved getting getting a gold star on the chart and it did make her rethink her decisions a few times

Always give expectations before you go out and always give a warning as well. This book is really useful I found