Discipline thoughts

(16 Posts)
Startail Mon 28-Jan-13 14:40:57

Never bothered with delayed punishments like no ice cream later.

That would just cause massive resentment and no better behaviour.

Non cooperation and point scoring against siblings are best discussed calmly when there is time.

If you are firm and refuse to join in they get better with time. It takes maturity to see that the world can't revolve around you. 4 is very small.

Even 6-7 year olds forget to consider others feelings when they have their minds set on something.

I've no experience of Boys, but from being a Brown Owl and my own DDs I've found emotional intelligence comes on in leaps and bounds from 8 onwards. The oldest Brownies were often great both with the leaders and the younger girls.

At 11 I've even had DD2 apologise for being stubborn once she'd calmed down.

Of course the flip side of this growing understanding can be some pretty nasty social interplay between "friends"

Goldmandra Mon 28-Jan-13 14:34:25

1) Family is setting out for a day out at the zoo or similar. Four year old has a tantrum and get's angry and hits out at sibling or parent. Would you continue on your day out, or would you think it appropriate to cancel the day out, or even just make the offending child stay at home with mum while dad and the others go on out. OR would you deal with the tantrum issue, talk to the offending child and issue another consequence, such as not having an ice cream out, or no TV when they got home etc....

Four year olds are not old enough to reliably regulate their own emotions. You manage the tantrum as calmly as possible without giving in to any demands, explain afterwards what they did that was unacceptable and move on. A sanction like missing out on a small treat immediately afterwards may be appropriate depending on the details of the situation. Losing the rest of the day is disproportionate and won't teach the child anything.

2) Four year old has been naughty and sent to room for time out. While in his bedroom he settles down and starts playing with his toys/reading books in his bedroom. Do you think that this is okay, as at the end of the day, he has been removed from the previous situation where he was being naughty, and as long as he is being quiet and 'calming down' it is ok. OR would you try to make the child sit on his bed, and play with nothing and just think about what he has done wrong?

Time out should be about removing the child from the situation and giving them and you the chance to calm down. Sitting quietly playing with his toys should be the desired outcome. At this point you can discuss the misdemeanour and impose an appropriate sanction if necessary, hopefully a natural consquence of their actions.

Also, how long would you say was appropriate for a four year old to have time out in his bedroom? Would you say all of the afternoon, if he had been so naughty for example, hitting. Or would you say, 5-10 mins until he is ready to say sorry.

Time out should be a positive strategy which allows the child and the parent to both become calm. It takes some children longer than others. When a child has been in full meltdown it can take 40 minutes before they are able to process language and think logically again. If the child is calm and ready to say sorry time out has then become redundant. That is when you talk about the situation, including ways they can act more appropriately next time, have a hug and move on.

Also, would you be able to move on from an incident and enjoy the rest of the day, or would your emotions over ride you, making it difficult to enjoy the day / forgive and forget the situation.

Children live in the moment. Situations need to be dealt with swiftly and effectively then everyone needs to move on. Anyone who can't do that probably has some emotional baggage they need to deal with, possibly about their own childhood. Taking things personally and spoiling whole days because of the actions of a four year old is unreasonable, immature and unhelpful.

With small children, the consequence has to be immediate and proportionate.

Naughty step / corner for 4 minutes. NOW. I would avoid bedroom - unrealistic to make a child sit on bed. But unfair to punish further if they quietly play.

Also, cancelling cinema later in the day - I don't think a child will get the connection. However, if a child is naughty because they are tired (often the case with my 6yo), early to bed would be what happened - definitely no evening cinema in that case.

Startail Mon 28-Jan-13 14:22:48

I have shout at and deposited offending DD in their car seat.

Generally it's DD2 who got sent to her room.

I guess 10 minutes to calm down when 4.

Been known to be well over an hour when she was older because DD1 totally forgot about her blush. She didn't care she was playing with her toys.

Generally DD2 was told to come back when she wanted to be nice.
Sometimes she'd decide to be nice almost instantly more often she'd go and have a rant for a bit.

DD2 is not someone it's worth reasoning with when she's in a strop.
DD1 you often can and DD1 rarely throws a tantrum anyway.

Open plan house so sitting on stairs is hopeless as DDs just happily watch the TV or carry on baiting their sister through the banisters.

CharlotteBronteSaurus Mon 28-Jan-13 14:00:28

I wouldn't end the day out, might suggest that getting icecreams or a balloon some other treat that the sibling could still enjoy would be at risk if tantrumming behaviour was continually repeated.

re timeouts - here they are not fixed in duration, but last as long as required to stop the behaviour and allow everyone (me included) to calm down. Normally a minute or two at most. i don't use timeout as a punishment, but to get us breathing space, so playing with toys wouldn't be a problem as everyone's calm and the unwanted behaviour has ended. we don't have a timeout spot - it's just a quiet space wherever we are

Yorkpud Mon 28-Jan-13 13:52:42

I think you need to give a consequence to bad behaviour like time out or not getting ice cream, but not to cancel the whole trip as that ruins everyone's days and is too big a punishment for the crime.

Could try a different area for time out like in a hallway where there are no toys etc or just at the dining table. Time it from when your child is quiet though but only about 3 mins for this age I think.

Reward charts might be a good idea too then at least you can reward good behaviour (when it happens!!).

The council run a course called 'Triple P' which helps with positive parenting and discipline. It is free and held in schools and childrens centres. Good for everyone to try.

HilaryClinton Sat 26-Jan-13 22:26:39

1) I would physically prevent hitting tell them to et coat on and get out the door to have a nice day all together ASAP.

2) you have devised the rules. Tough shit on you for not creating a "thinking about what you have done space". Your husband needs to re-read Timeouts 101. 4 years = 4 minutes.

Anyone that holds grudges and escalates especially in their dealings with their own children is a dickhead.

This is your son's childhood, and he will remember this stuff. To say your partner is "too harsh " is sticking your head in the sand - he sounds awful.

cory Sat 26-Jan-13 18:41:33

"1) Family is setting out for a day out at the zoo or similar. Four year old has a tantrum and get's angry and hits out at sibling or parent. Would you continue on your day out, or would you think it appropriate to cancel the day out, or even just make the offending child stay at home with mum while dad and the others go on out. OR would you deal with the tantrum issue, talk to the offending child and issue another consequence, such as not having an ice cream out, or no TV when they got home etc...."

IF the family contains a sibling and you cancel a day out, then that means the sibling is being punished for being hit. I would never devise a punishment that affects an innocent child.

And I wouldn't make a massive deal out of a 4yos tantrum either.

"2) Four year old has been naughty and sent to room for time out. While in his bedroom he settles down and starts playing with his toys/reading books in his bedroom. Do you think that this is okay, as at the end of the day, he has been removed from the previous situation where he was being naughty, and as long as he is being quiet and 'calming down' it is ok. OR would you try to make the child sit on his bed, and play with nothing and just think about what he has done wrong?"

You tell him he has to stay in his room, then find he copes well with it- so you give him a further punishment, moving the goal posts? No, no, no, no, no. If I have said "this is the punishment for X", then that is what happens. (Imagine a judge saying "Prisoner X has been so quiet and well behaved in prison that we will lengthen the sentence by 10 years"- it just goes against all ideas of natural justice).

"Also, how long would you say was appropriate for a four year old to have time out in his bedroom? Would you say all of the afternoon, if he had been so naughty for example, hitting. Or would you say, 5-10 mins until he is ready to say sorry."

A minute per year sounds good to me. And some children can never bring themselves to say sorry, so you could end up being at loggerheads throughout their childhood.

"Also, would you be able to move on from an incident and enjoy the rest of the day, or would your emotions over ride you, making it difficult to enjoy the day / forgive and forget the situation."

I don't see the need to take a 4yo tantrum that personally- they are only children and are still learning self control. I am not on their level.

Halfcups Sat 26-Jan-13 16:21:35

Hi there I have a 2 4 and 6 year old. I don t use time out for the dc but do for me! I hate the idea of naughty chairs/steps etc. in the case of tantrums, which mine do regularly, I do not give the tantrum any power at all. I once read that a tantrum should not stop the activity planned or change what you were about to do otherwise the child quickly learns that this type of behaviour is very powerful. Ignoring poor behaviour works. It's gritting your teeth, giving no eye contact, and appearing deaf until it all blows over. No one said it was easy.......!

Ineedmorepatience Sat 26-Jan-13 16:03:29

Yes nickelbabe, I have seen that too.

I have a child with ASD and we use a yellow and red card system(like footballers). I always have cards in my pocket and use them as and when required.

I dont believe in making a child wait for a consequence if the behaviour is bad enough to need dealing with, then deal with it there and then.

nickelbabe Sat 26-Jan-13 15:57:16

and no, i don't think being sent to one's room is good for punishment - it should be their sanctuary, not their prison. i would find somewhere else to hold their punishment.
and just sending them there and letting them play is bad, too, because they do need to think about what they've done wrong, not just get a bit of time in their room.

nickelbabe Sat 26-Jan-13 15:55:08

I agree with Supernanny's techniques - the time out should be either on a rug or chair or step etc for 1 minute per year of age (4 minutes here), and they should say sorry afterwards.

I do not think it appropriate to cancel an entire day out because a child has been naughty! that's just draconian and pretty bloody cruel!
shock

The child should be given discipline of the same magnitude as the bad behaviour.
The best way to get a child to behave nicely most of the time is to carry on as you were, whilst disciplining for the problem. To cancel an entire day out could make the child think "i never get to do anything nice, so it's not even worth trying to behave, i might as well be naughty"
it's like making a mountain out of a molehill. it doesn't help anyone.

i have seen the naughty place technique used to great effect on a day out - nobody even knew about it except the family (and me because i was being quiet and watching)
the child misbehaved, the dad pulled them to 1 side and explained what they had done wrong and that they had to sit on the step for <number of> minutes. after those minutes were up, the child apologised, dad gave hug and child went off to play. child knew they had done wrong and thought about it, but it didn't ruin anybody's day.

Not sure with regards to the outing one, but when my 4y6m old gets sent to his bedroom he is told to sit on his bed, count to 5/10/15 depending on how short my fuse is, then come back down and apologise. If there is no apology, he has to go back upstairs.

It also works for DD who is almost 3, but she only has to count to 5.

It only backfired once, when DS must have been so tired from school, that he fell asleep and DH found him asleep when he got up (DH works nights)

Bluebella Sat 26-Jan-13 15:47:01

hank you for your reply.

Just so you know, my idea's are that, yes I would definitely continue with outing because I see it as cruel and unhealthy to keep a child indoors all day when it is good to get them out in outdoors etc... It would depend on the situation I suppose, if we were thinking of going to the cinema later, I may say we wouldn't do that anymore for example. However if we were going to a biirthday party I wouldn't let the other mum and child down and I would definitely let my child go , and I would give them another consequence to their bad behaviour. Its my partner you see who thinks it would not be right to 'treat' the child after they have been naughty.

In regards to the time out, it is my opinion that its fine whatever he is doing in his bedroom, the purpose is to remove the child from the situation, and if he reads his books thats fine with me because both kid and adult having time out to cool down.

In regards to holding grudges, I always deal with it, and move on, always.

I think my partner is too harsh, and just wanted to get your opinions.

Thank you x

Ineedmorepatience Sat 26-Jan-13 15:31:09

If you are using the childs bedroom for time out it is going to be extremely difficult to enforce the no playing rule. In my opinion it might be better to use a time out chair or bean bag.

Time out should be one minute for every year of the childs life so age 4 gets four minutes. Make sure the child has a clear understanding of why they are in time out and then after 4 minutes get an apology then a hug.

As for tantrums on day trips, I would tend to go for no visit to the gift shop or no ice cream.

4 is still quite little and theymcan easily become overexcited.

Have a look at some super nanny episodes. You may not like Jo Frost but her techniques can work well.

Good lucksmile

Bluebella Sat 26-Jan-13 12:54:12

Can I please get your honest opinions on a few scenario's:

1) Family is setting out for a day out at the zoo or similar. Four year old has a tantrum and get's angry and hits out at sibling or parent. Would you continue on your day out, or would you think it appropriate to cancel the day out, or even just make the offending child stay at home with mum while dad and the others go on out. OR would you deal with the tantrum issue, talk to the offending child and issue another consequence, such as not having an ice cream out, or no TV when they got home etc....

2) Four year old has been naughty and sent to room for time out. While in his bedroom he settles down and starts playing with his toys/reading books in his bedroom. Do you think that this is okay, as at the end of the day, he has been removed from the previous situation where he was being naughty, and as long as he is being quiet and 'calming down' it is ok. OR would you try to make the child sit on his bed, and play with nothing and just think about what he has done wrong?

Also, how long would you say was appropriate for a four year old to have time out in his bedroom? Would you say all of the afternoon, if he had been so naughty for example, hitting. Or would you say, 5-10 mins until he is ready to say sorry.

Also, would you be able to move on from an incident and enjoy the rest of the day, or would your emotions over ride you, making it difficult to enjoy the day / forgive and forget the situation.

I am asking as my partner and I have different idea's on discipline and I wanted to know what your thoughts were.

Thank you very much for your answers, in advance. :0)

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