Schools in Germany

[sunnyhill]

Does any one have experience of navigating the German state education system? I live in Germany with my family. DD is 10 years old and attends a local Primary school and is due to move to senior school next september. They opperate a system similar to the old UK grammar school system and this decision is based on the marks the children achieve in class this year. This is decision effectively streams the children routing them to university education or more practical education. I think this is far too early to decide her future but this is the system here.

[ghoulgrrl]

hi sunnyhill, isn't there a Gesamtschule (comprehensive) near you? Some states have those - usually those governed by the social-democratic party, the christian democratic party hates them. What are your daughter's grades like? Is she likely to cope at a gymnasium? At least it is just a recommendation and in the end it's your decision.

Other than that - I agree it's not good but at least there is a fair amount of mobility within the secondary system - I went to a Gymnasium and there were plenty of pupil moving to/from a Realschule. A lot of my classmates had a Realschule recommendation but their parents went for the Gymnasium anyway, some coped fine, others not so.

Sorry, not much help I know. It's a matter of making the most within a poor system.

[frogs]

As far as I understand it there is more flexibility in the German system than with English grammar schools, inasmuch as parental choice of school is taken into account. Essentially, middleclass children whose parents are academically ambitious go to Gymnasium (grammar school), while others go to Realschule. The third tier is Hauptschule which is pretty grim. There is some flexibility to move about between streams, eg. children from Realschule can join the stream headed for University at 16 if they are up to it.

There are some Gesamtschulen (comprehensive schools) particular in Länder with a history of socialdemocrat govts (eg. North-Rhine Westfalia) but not that many.

Not all grammar schools are created equal, so you may need to keep your ear to the ground for gossip. In general I would say that German schools place far less emphasis on pastoral care and all-round education than British ones, and are more impersonal. A bit like the difference between German and UK universities. It can be a bit sink or swim.

[LIZS]

No personal experience but just to say the Swiss system is similarly regimented and no matter how high your other marks are if your High German (in the Swiss German speaking area) doesn't come up scratch (both written and oral) then the child gets marked down overall. The teachers nominate who can enter the stream for the opportunity to access the Gymnasium (High) schools. This in turn determines what level of exams you can sit at 16 and whether they are University material.

[foundintranslation]

agree with frogs. Would just add that Gesamtschulen, sadly, generally have a not so good reputation. I also dislike the three tier system. If she doesn't seem up to Gymnasium level (yet), start her at the Realschule - as frogs said, she can always move up and go on to do Abitur (which is definitely to be recommended) later, and there's nothing worse than being permanently stressed about marks. Another thing that is intensely dislikeable about the German system is that private extra tuition (Nachhilfe) is more or less the norm, that is among those who can pay for it - Germans like to kid themselves they have a fantastic state system, but there's effectively a shadow private one operating alongside.

[sunnyhill]

Just got back to the thread and want to say thanks for all advice. DD had Nachhilfe this pm and had to rush off with her. Ghoulgrrl, unfortunately we live in Stuttgart and there is no Gesamtschule here unless you go private. DD's grades are 3's so she#ll probably be Ok at Realschule and struggle at Gymnasium. Dh and I feel better she has less stress. Frogs, I am frustrated with lack of pastoral care here and find myself harking back to her wonderful experience in UK primary schools. Everyone seems to confirm my thoughts that it is best to Head for Realschule while she still has some difficulty writing German. Her speech is fluent which masks the fact she doesn't always understand. I have been frustrated with the pressure on DD to achieve good marks and think that pressure starts far to early. I also think that the method of teaching might be more suitable to DD. If she wants to change and has the ability to move to Gymnasium then that would be up to her. Socially she my have an established set of friends and will not won't to start in new school.

Thanks for all the advice.

[frogs]

Sunnyhill, one other thought. I suspect your instinct is right that with 3s she might struggle in the Gymnasium, and it would be horrid for her to get put back a year if she couldn't quite hack it.

But contrary to popular opinion in the UK, there is a private sector in Germany, and their particular strength can be dealing with children who are struggling in the mainstream (smaller classes, more one-to-one attention, less dog-eat-dog than state schools). One of my cousins who was pushed through mainstream Gymnasium while not really up to it swapped to a private school for Oberstufe (16-19) and got through his Abitur that way.

No idea what the fees are, but suspect they would be less than equivalent Uk private schools. Is there not a British/International school in Stuttgart?

[foundintranslation]

Sunnyhill, I live a 45min train ride away from Stuttgart. CAT me if you want. Hausfrau lives in the area too.
Yes, German 'private' school fees are generally relatively moderate, as the schools are supported by churches or similar bodies and (I think) often subsidised to some degree or given tax breaks by the state.

[sunnyhill]

Frogs there is an international school but we want to stick to state system as we would in the Uk and if possible reasonably local. DD is a social animal and so her social environmant is essential. If we find a good realschule then I think that would be best and the method of teaching more suitable for her. What I really resent is that the decision is being made when it is far to early to tell. Most people agree with this but just accept this system the way it is here. Fortunately for DD is that Being from the UK and Bilingual she is not excluded from further ed. or Uni there.