Mumsnet Talk

Just wondered really..

I think labelling something/someone pretentious is very dependant on where your own background/standing but as we all are only very loosely gathered into social groups/trends it's fairly impossible (IMO) to call a name in particular pretentious.. what might sound so to one person maybe a perfectly normal name to another..

What in your opinion makes a name fall into the dictionary meaning - which is "characterized by assumption of dignity or importance" - and why ?

For example I don't think Persephone (mentioned in another thread) is in any way pretentious but I went to school with a Mungo and I have a very, very unusual name which I love.

Good question. It's all tied in with our class system isn't it, and where you see yourself within that, and what is the norm amongst your friends etc.

The interesting thing is when more unusual "aspirational" ie posh names become popular, giving them the dubious honour of being both pretentious and common, a double whammy!

For me it's pretentious when it seems people are trying too hard... But I have two mildly unusually named DDs so I am sure people think I am pretentious. Or maybe just a bit of a tit

when the parents have chosen a name for aspirational reasons, because they think it will somehow reflect or indicate that they are higher up the social ladder than they actually are.

Names are not pretentious, but some parents are.

Something like Persephone.

It's

1) very unusual
2) has a load or erudite baggage which isn't that cheerful
3) would be hated by the mum of a chardonnay or Bailey-Rae
4) we all (even the parents of Persephone herself) know that it's hard to pull off, so, by naming their child Persephone it's like announcing that their daughter will be more intelligent, confident, attractive and spectalur than average.... and maybe she wont be. Maybe she will be average. And then, her name will heighten that disparity between potential brilliance and what she actually became....and everybody put her parents will see that.

THere, I hope that helps?!?!

I knew a very average Ophelia. As Maggie says, her name just made the averageness seem unacceptable, somehow - like she was a disappointment to her glamorous posh name.

Actually, after reading the other thread Persephone has really grown on me. It seems pretty normal to me now I have seen it on mumsnet a few times.

I kind of agree with you thinking that pretentious is being when it seems people are trying too hard.. and I agree with your point about apsirational names becoming very popular.

But.. I think having aspirations is no bad thing - why not name your child/dog/horse/parrot with an aspirational name ? It might reflect.

I think my name has made a difference to my life - maybe if I had had a different (less .. er.. exotic/bonkers.. name I might have led a less er.. bohemian existance ? My name didn't make me but I think perhaps it influenced some parts of my life..

My mother insisted on my name as she loved it (from a very old film) not for any other reason - aspirational or otherwise!

Odd that a person with an out of the ordinary name should be expected to be somehow amazing or special. Does the same count for very common names? do we expect those people to be very average, run of the mill and unexciting?

I wonder that myself!

Having lived in several countries, I find the UK is the only country where people (mumsnetters in particular) even bring up the topic of 'poshness' and 'chavviness'.

From my experience in other countries, elegant/unusual names are generally very favourably commented on!

But most importantly, it is the person that matters, not their name! And I cannot imagine that children could care less whether a child is called Persephone or Alexandra or whatever. To them these are just names!

I therefore also don't understand comments like "I hope he/she will go to private school". Why would children whose parents happen to pay for their education perceive names in any other way than those in state schools????

Have to pop out but back soon! Am interested in this!

MaggieBeauLeo / monkeysavingexpert

Curious about your point - so should we all name our children "average" or not-unusual names just in case they turn out to be average and so don't disappoint ?

Most people are average - and yet some exceptional people have very ordinary/average names .. Marie Curie ?

No, we don't expect anything, they can surprise us or disappoint us.

And a litte Annie is just as special to her Mum and Dad as Anastasia is to her mum and dad. And to everybody else, she's just somebody else's child with a silly name.

Stannie, my children's names aren't even in the top 100 (approx), so I didn't pick average names in that respect. My son's name is about #400 I think!

But their names won't be too heavy for them to carry at any point. They say, don't let your clothes wear you, wear the clothes and I guess I see it like that.

I'd hate to think their names were steering their personalities. Their personalities can steer their personalities iyswim.

NObody will expect them to be arty, boring, pretentious etc...

I am only answering the question that was asked. But it is my opinion.

I like unusual names, fwiw, but I think people who use the names generally perceived to be pretentious have to be aware of the fact that some people will consider them pretentious. For those parents, I think that's part of their appeal.

So if she is just somebody elses child with a silly name then there are no expectations of Anastasia ? or no more than there are of Annie? sorry I thought you were saying a name influenced expectations.
My ds's name has been called pretentious on here [as has dd2's- which is a very common name actually] One person's pretentious is another person's tasteful and nice sounding I guess.

Stannie, what's your name!?

Sounds like it is quirky and unusual with meaning to your mum, rather than 'pretentious' iyswim.

MaggieBeauLeo, I am really intrigued by your viewpoint....!

Do you really feel that parents who give their child an unusual name are "announcing" that their child "will be more intelligent, confident, attractive and spectalur than average.."???

If you do seriously believe that, then I feel it says more about you (and your insecurities) than the parent naming their child (whatever name they chose)!

I had a good friend named Persephone when we were 11.
She was the child of a single mother, who must have been severely depressed because the house (small and ordinary) was never cleaned -- inch thick dust everywhere, including on the floor.

Persephone and I were both social misfits at a school in a very aspirational area (most parents were lawyers or doctors or estate agents). Can't believe that named got labeled pretentious! My Persephone's family were hippies, if any label could be applied to them.

I am also intrigued by some people's attitudes towards names in the UK. I am German, dh is French and we named our son a name that we love and that gets commented on very favorably in both Germany and France when we visit.

Here, on mumsnet, it is sometimes called 'posh' or 'pretensious' or 'nerdy' or whatever.... and that makes me sad.

Not being English, I luckily don't need to worry about the class issues , but I really don't understand why some people are so vocal and negative when it comes to names.... Why don't they get to know the person before forming a judgement? It makes me quite angry, almost to the point of wanting to leave the UK (which we probably will anyway at some point).

Do you remember the days when the only children who had Greek names where either a) Greeks or b)their mum went to Greece for holiday and erm... met Costas the waiter

I have some Greek blood and many Greek friends and the funny thing is that many Greeks change their names or shorten them in order to make it easier for others to remember it and now the British make intentionally their names difficult to pronounce . Why?

I'm not insecure on my children's behalf. I know, knew,that whatever I called them, they'd be the people they were going to be. Children's names reflect the parents' tastes.

Anyway, my viewpoint is not the intriguing one, seeing as most children are not called Persephone or Aphrodite or Ophelia.

My taste is names is probably more adventurous than average, so I'm not the right person to 'quiz' on this point.

"I therefore also don't understand comments like "I hope he/she will go to private school". Why would children whose parents happen to pay for their education perceive names in any other way than those in state schools???? "

Well, I didn't say that, but funnily enough, I went to private school and in my year there was a Crispin, a Neville, a Gaius, a Matthias... (this was in the 80s) practically every boy seemed to have a fairly way out name. They weren't teased (much) over their names at private school, that is true. But when I mentioned people from school in other circles, tehy often used to stop me and say "whaaaat?"

So, I'd agree that a Persephone's parents should be thinking of private school and not the local comp.

JMO

I think that some names are hard to live up to. I once read an interview with the actress in buffy who's first name was Charisma, she said it wasn't a stage name it was her real name, and I thought wow that's got to be hard.

People with way-out names and genuinely eccentric parents are fine by me. It's when the parents have chosen the name mainly to sound posher than they are.

I suppose the whole thing is a huge show of the class system at work, rife with snobbery and impossible to explain to anyone not entrenched in our culture

It's when someone says what their child is called and the general reaction is "oooh get her".

lots of issues and questions here but what hulabula asked jumped out for me

"but I really don't understand why some people are so vocal and negative when it comes to names.... Why don't they get to know the person before forming a judgement?"

the point on mumsnet is that we don't know the person or child in question and if people ask an opinion on a name then people give it. In RL a lot of people are very polite and mutter 'mmmn nice' when inside they are screaming 'what on earth are you thinking?' On MN you get honest answers from a broad spectrum of people from all over the UK and even further afield.
If you take offence at the opinions then you shouldn't ask. I love commenting on people's choices but I can't ever imagine posting my list of names here as I don't really care what the MN jury thinks, if DH and I are happy with the name then that's all that matters.
Also a name alone (without knowing the person) conjures up an image in an individuals mind and that is often dependant on where they live, what sort of school they went to, whether they read celebrity magazines and all sorts of other factors.

although some people disagree, for me it rings true that parents will hope that their children are confident enough to pull off their name (and they may well be right).

this is making me think twice about going for my unusual name. me and my partner like it, but i don't want to saddle our child with something they will hate. and we've had fairly neutral from other people so far.

What's the name?!

Yes what is it?

huxley

No that's not pretentious. It's a sur name. I liked Brave New World, so I say it's a good one.

not that were looking for anybody's blessing!

Not pretentious. Too unusual to be pretentious.

Back.

Great discussion going on

MaggieBeauLeo - I don't routinely post my name online as to date (and I'm 34) I have never met another person with my name. And a google search on the name revealed only one other with this name in the US - it's truly unique, so finding me/my details/email addressess etc is a bit too easy so posting it on open forums is a no no for me personally.

I disagree about unusually named children having to go to private or public school to avoid teasing etc. I know of three Apples that are attending state schools - maybe they would have been possibly teased previously for having hippy names but now they are not because it's an unusual name that has become mainstream through 1st celebrity use and therefore usage.

SardineQueen - "too unusual to be pretentious" (out of interest not in arguement) why ?

Because people who are being pretentious in an aspirational way will choose names which they hope are unusual or original but then realise they have missed the mark and the primary school is full of kids with the same name.

Or the names will be utterly ridiculous and not "suit" the family at all.

Whereas people who are truely original/bonkers/eccentic can call their children whatever they like and, while people might think their choices weird, will not accuse them of pretension. They just think "oh it's just so and so".

For eg your Apples, you will be able to tell whether the parents called them that due to celebrity endorsement, or because they have dreadlocks and once lived in a ditch with swampy for a month. Totally different ball game.

Oh and so yes, a name which no-one has ever heard before can't be pretentious as by definition you're not trying to be anyone else, as no-one is called it IYSWIM...

For me the pretentious names are all the "quirky" ones which are beloved of certain (pretentious) areas in London, and the ones which are thought of as being very posh.

<starts to gibber drunkenly>

Ooops I think it was me that suggested Persephone on that other name thread

I stand by it though. It was a contender at one point for a while for our imminent dd in fact. I just think it's really pretty, and unusual, and has an interesting background.

IMO giving a child a name which is totally unsuited to their environment/nationality/heritage is pretty pretentious. Eg calling a girl Mercedez if you're not Spanish.

fatti that is exactly what we have done. We have got quite a few , as expected, but fuckit, who cares

For me the real pretentious ones are a certain type of person in London who are very pretentious anyway, and their children's names just sort of accentuate the whole ghastliness of it all.

Would persephone get shortened to Percy? I like it though. But wouldn't have the balls to use it myself!

PMSL @ SardineQueen

I see what you mean now. DH & I both have unusual names (and fairly odd parents in my case!) and we are keen on some names for first born due in two weeks that could be construed as pretentious from some posts on MN. We don't actually care as WE like the names and we also don't live anywhere that it would be a case of impressing others/wanting to be seen as something we are not (on a hill in the middle of Ireland!)..

@ the quirky names in "certain" areas - I know exactly what you mean ..

As for the posh ones.. hmmm.. dunno.. depends on what personal opinion as to what that is I suppose..

Fatti - no offence but we are in real danger of being uber pretentious from your definition ... Choices for new baby are far far far from Irish names which would more suited to our environment.. I suppose we dredge up some tenous heritage/nationality links to use them though..

It's really interesting to see how others define pretentious.

I have a friend with a dd called (say) 'Persephone'.

Her sister had twins and called them (say) 'Ruby and Magnus'. She was horrified and thought they were very odd names indeed.

It's all relative!

Stannie you should use the names that you like.

I knew that with ours (which are not difficult, just not English) we would get people thinking we were twats. But we like the names and so use them confidently so it doesn;t matter. I don't care what other people think - we chose them genuinely and with no thought of trying to impress other people with our coolness/richness/poshness/originality whatever.

Just go for it

It is interesting that not everybody finds the same names pretentious, just goes o show pretention is in the eye of the beholder.

I am called Roxanne and did feel a small amount of pressure to be lively, amusing and sexy, given the assumptions of the name.

I definitely wouldn't have felt like this if I'd been called Sarah, Kate or Gemma (the most common names of my age group, born 1983).

I'm definitely giving my daughter a more unusual name, no one wants to be ordinary do they?

Stannie won't you tell us the names?

<coaxes>

Has everyone heard the expression 'try hard names?'

We have a dd with a Greek name and a dd with a Dutch name but no links to either. Just loved the names.
I love Persephone personally, is it off your list now Fatti?

The silly thing with that hf though is, surely everyone tries hard with their childrens names. To get the right/best one.

What people mean by that expression, IMO, is "trying to be something they're not" names.

yep.

roxy - how did you feel about the pressure? i'd be v interested to know... as i had a pretty common name myself. so don't know what it's like from the other side.

We found searching for a perfect name for all four of ours both 'trying' and 'hard' so all four of ours are 'try hard' names

Of course everyone wants the right name for their child - many hours of thought goes into it.

But I do think some people want to fit in with social expectations and please other people with their choices.

My understanding of a 'try hard name' is one that you think you should use, rather than the one that you really want to.

interesting...

Surely no-one does that though? I mean choosing a name they don't actually like because it is the "right" one.

That is . It hadn't occured to me that people might do that.

Sardine Queen - I can't be persuaded I'm afraid ..not for any other reason but for superstition! When he/she lands I'll post them..

hf - try hard names ? I am a clueless 1st timer so no .. try harder as in trying harder to be . ... You'll have to cut me some slack - about 4 months ago I didn't know what a Quinny Buzz was.. (I do now. And I also know that I'm not trendy because I have a Graco buggy)

Roxanne - What are your potential names for DD? nosy and do you regret being called Roxanne ?

Oooh I had a graco as my first ever buggy! It was excellent, good choice stannie, bodes well for you I think

lockets are yours names which are greek/dutch but well known over here ie people can spell/pronounce them etc or are they more unusual (for UK)?

"some people want to fit in with social expectations and please other people with their choices"

"My understanding of a 'try hard name' is one that you think you should use, rather than the one that you really want to"

All becomes clear now.. very sad to think people name their children to fit in with social groups/expectations/affections am glad I have more of an independent mind than that.

well lots of people say they wish they had gone for their outlandish name of their dreams. but feel they should go for something more sensible.

to me a 'try hard' name is one like Princess Tiaamii
especially when you read the description. . . .
"We've put an accent over the first A to make it more exotic and two Is at the end just to make it look a bit different," Jordan told OK! magazine. story here

Sardine- dd2's is well known here and easily pronounced -Saskia, dd1's is fairly well known here but pronounced three different ways -Thea, so we regularly have to correct people. Ds's is also pronounced two ways but is less often pronounced the other way over here [more often in USA]

I love hearing new or unusual names, regularly make lists for dc5 [who will probably never exist]

S-Queen - I like my Graco buggy although it did create a bit of a stir when I mentioned it at a girls lunch with some friends.. and by stir I mean as in what happens when you stir lemon juice into milk .. it appears poor **possibly- pretentiously-named-child** will be socially ostracised from Dublin's social circuit for not having the right wheels!

However PPNC will (I hope) be grateful for solid design and cover that looks as if it would stem weather that would stop a ship from sailing when it's parked outside while I deal with various animals!

I think you do have to balance your outlandish name dreams with the fact that some poor little bugger is going to have to live with it.

I know a very good friend of mine hates my dd's name! Although she doesn't know I know! When I was pregnant me and dh had already decided on girls/boys names.

When I was 7 months pregnant we all went on a sailing trip and everyone was very drunk (except me obviously!)

Our possible dd's name came up in conversation in a completely different context to 'possible names'. She said 'God I hate that name, only wimps and wet girls are called that, it's just awful'.

When dd was born she said she 'loved the name' and actually gushed over it!!

hf1- bet you were dying to say "Ahhhh but you think it is wet and wimpy though don't you?" what is it ? [sorry for nosiness]

Smac - I'd forgotten about Princess Tiaamii and the two I's..

Lockets - I love Saskia. What is the other name ? And also, what are the three different ways ? I only know it as Sass-Kia from the Saskia's I know. The younger sister called Saskia, her name (friend) is Dutch - Kimo (pronounced Kee-mow). They were a dutch family.

but hf that name must have had a bad association for your friend hence the strong reaction but now she knows your baby the association will have changed. I can think of people I was at school with who I didn't like and if DH suggested their name I would be NO definitely not however if I met a baby at baby group with that name now I wouldn't then think of the person at school IYKWIM

Stannie if they're "bugaboo or bust" types then I can promise that they will be the ones with offspring sporting pretentious names, not you.

Our Graco is still going for DD2 - my friends all looked sick as mud when I told them how much it cost

haha yeah exactly sardine queen!

Hf1 - Echo Lockets! I'd be SO tempted to mention what she said.. just out of mischief really. What is the name ?

It begins with a D and ends in a Y and it's not Darcey.

ha ha I'm going to be really cruel and say that I agree with your friend. Sorry

lockets saskia is lovely. How is Thea pronounced?

I am all for non-difficult foreign names, sorry fatti

debby? dolly? dilly?

Sorry-my post was so badly written it was all confused. Saskia is dd2 and is never mispronounced. Thea is dd1 and we pronounce it Thee ah but it is often Taya or Thaya too. Ds's name is Cassius which we pronounce Cass ee us but is also Cash us [in USA mainly]

I still regret not giving dd3 the name I wanted, instead it is her middle name instead, she suits her name [Kitty] but would have suited Scout even better.

Dont ya just love mumsnet?

Have I told you what her dd is called?

Bugaboo or bust! I love it! And they are a bit.. well Bugaboo or Apple I-buggies or something similar..

I'm not sold on them and haven't given them the proper thought on whether I would consider them Pretentious or Not - but it would appear that Rafferty, Quinn and Solomon are on the popular names list in Dublin6 ..

Do they tie in with BugabooMania ?

Oi- our little Cassius loves his bugaboo it is tattered and worn and on its fourth occupant though so nothing showy about it.

Lockets - lovely names! I didn't know any other pronunciations of Thea either! Interesting - I would say Thee-Aah like you..

Hf - Dolly ?? I know a Dilly too - I think it's a lovely name but DH isn't keen.

Not Dolly or Dilly. Just a flower's name - the one that has no scent!

Lockets - ahh but if you have had your Bugaboo for four occupants then you were (I'm told) an original Bugaboo buyer.. not a NouveauBugabooBuyer..

Daisy!

Lockets cassius is lovely and I would pronounce cass ee us as well. Kitty gorgeous.

Gosh I just nosed your profile your kids are lovely! So close together though you must be worn out - mine are 2.2 and 12 weeks and I'm feeling the heat!

hf daisy?

What's hers called?

Her's is called Herlinga.

now Herlinga that is a 'try hard' name if ever I heard one!

I think rafferty quinn and solomon are the dublin equivalents of oscar, harry and alfie maybe?

All lovely names but all very "of the moment" IYSWIM.

The other names I like are old biblical ones (thinking of soloman) like Gabriel and Raphael. Or maybe I have a thing about archangels

daisy!!!! i like it. and knew a very VERY feisty one.

Herlinga?

New one on me...

<googles>

Stannie, just saw your earlier post. I'm not saying that we should name our children middle of the road names, in fact the names I chose for my children were far more exotic than the pretty but nevertheless compromise ones they have now, but as you say ones's reaction to certain names does depend on background. It's tribal, I suppose.
To be honest, part of my problem with "my" Ophelia was that she was a horrendous snob who thought she was a lot cleverer than she was and looked down on me. Don't suppose her parents thought "I think she's going to be a git. Let's call her Ophelia".
I did know a Quentin who was really fed up with people thinking he was gay because he was called Quentin.

giggle

It makes me want go and dig out my baby name book and list the names I like - but I must go to bed!!

From what I remember:
Girls:
Saskia
Honor
Theodora
Daisy
Alice
Phoebe
Ruby
Lucy

Herlinga ? Where does that come from ?? Sounds Viking-y or something..

S_Q - they probably are (the equiv of the London names) .. Dublin 6/Dublin 4 is very ChiChi.

hf that;s not a name at all though. Googling reveals it is a place where a specialist type of dog is bred. So you are joking?

Like all of those names some are quite popular round here though.

Honor - lovely..

MonkeyExpert - I think you are right re tribal connotations.. There are names I really dislike as I intensely disliked the person I first met with the name..

Another here that must go to bed! Will catch up in the morning..

Thanks Sardine- they are pretty close in age but it is getting easier by the day. Birth to about 16 weeks was a blur for all four so I can imagine how you are feeling now.

Herlinga is not one I have heard of either. I had a friend called Lenka when I was at school and it reminds me of that.

Daisy is beautiful and dd1's friend Daisy is as far from wet and wimpy as you could find.

hf1- lovely list , I am one of those names

Gabriel and Raphael are both just lovely. I love Saul and Ezra too.

Totally agree saul and ezra both great names.

Out of those 4 bible names I have known people called 3 of them, and had a huge bit of a crush on 2 of them, the other one had a crush on me!

Maybe that is swaying my judgement

Sorry, didn't mean to offend anyone!

And have to admit I'm guilty as I've charged myself, as I've got absolutely no Greek heritage so if I do call dd Persephone it would be pretentious by my own definition. (Btw it would be Seffi for short.)

I'm too embarrassed to say the other names on my shortlist!

Fabulous reason for swaying of judgement.

There are so many fabulous OT names, on our list for ds we had

Cyrus
Ezra
Saul
Ezekiel [Zeke]
Malachi [well I loved it and dh said it was too medicine sounding ]

Oh go on Fatti- bet they are great, Persephone is so you have good taste.

My good friend has a Pandora and an Ursula and is pregnant with number three, we have been endlessly scouring for a perfect name to go with them.

These are all fab names. unusual and distinctive and not in the least bit pretentious.

Which means that we all have excellent taste

Or that we are all of similar backgrounds/aspirations/socio economic wotsit etc

I'm going with the first option!

Lockets I love your dc's names. Wish I'd thought of Cassius for ds! We nearly went for Caspian for him but when he was born it just didn't suit him. And it really would have been pretentious wouldn't it

Kitty was on our shortlist but sounds ridiculous with the surname. Others still in contention for dd are Ottilie, Isadora, Madeleine and Claudia. Got 5 weeks to think about it.

Oh Fatti Ottillie is just great, love it, all your list are perfect names , Isadora is particularly good too.

Caspian is nice- what did you go for in the end?

Loving Isadora!

Mind you my first though is of Isadora Duncan which is maybe not fab.

I have not heard Ottilie before, where is that from? Reminds me of Odette and Clotilde.

Sardine- what are your dc's names?- keep rereading thread to find them I have had a few glasses of wine though so might be being all useless.

I really do like Dora as a shortening of Isadora, actually Isa is lovely too. I often think Theodora would have been better than just Thea for dd1.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Sardine, what fabulous names [I knew they would be] , I have a friend named ingrid. Greta is divine too.

Herlinga made me think of cunnilingus

I've put a snap up so you can check suitability

Be kind, it will be gone soon <mysterious emoticon>

I missed it............., oh bugger.

I think you need to make your profile public SardineQueen

Great names being bandied about on here - Isadora - lovely!

Still can't get head around Herlinga though - PMSL @ Token Female !

Greta and Ingrid are very complementary - lovely names..

I think for me a 'pretentious' name indicates attention seeking. A kind of 'look at special me and my unique and superior children'. This holds whatever the context and whether the resulting name is Princess Tiaawotever, Apple or indeed Persephone and Antigone.

I also dislike names that are over the top posh. There are 'smart but serviceable' names - Harry, Isabel, Oliver whatever, and then there are the Araminta, Annabelle and Tarquin names.

Ottilie is GORGEOUS

We have a Mafalda and soon to have a Floriana. I am Italian though so I think its ok (and not too poncey) but actually I don't care cos I like them!

Thing is it's all relative...it's what we are used to hearing. People name their daughters Helen without expecting them to be the most beautiful woman in the world. I always think it must be awful to be a plain Helen.

my brother is called george and in the 70s 80s it was a really rare name, old man's name etc etc...now its really popular, he was teased like crazy in school though.

Have just come back to this thread and found these two comments very interesting:

"Some people want to fit in with social expectations and please other people with their choices"

"My understanding of a 'try hard name' is one that you think you should use, rather than the one that you really want to"

If there really ARE people who name their children on that basis, then I feel strangely happier with our ("unservicable" "posh", even "gay") names choices, because I have lost all respect for such people's opions! We chose names that we love - simple as that!

Perhaps also those who wish to display how learned/erudite they are by their name selections!

Floriana is very pretty.

Yes, Floriana is indeed very pretty.

I also like Florian for a boy - very popular in Germany - although dh vetoed on the basis of sounding a little 'feminine'.

Yes agree mrswoolf - I would add that category to my attention seekers. Hulabula I too chose my DD names because I loved them and they are those of beloved relatives. And it's my own name that has been described as 'posh but serviceable' (I take strange comfort from the latter)! But the op wanted honest opinions. Believe me if you told me you had named your new born Antigone then I would congratulate you. But if you are asking me the kind of names I consider pretentious....

I love Leonora and Annabella. Also know a Cassiopeia. Quite like Lucius for a boy too.

If anything is too 'out there' a child can also abbreviate it and make it a bit more benign going forward? (Cassiopeia - Cassie etc)?

One of mine had a very unusual name that so many criticised at the time and yet now it see beginning to be mentioned on here with more favourable feedback.

My in laws believed that their children should have names that were not going to stand out at all. Their personal choices almost didn't come into it. Interestingly they have all done very well.

To me their choices were unbelievably dull but can see where they were coming from.

It's quite difficult to know the motivation behind a name isn't it though? We gave our DD an unusual name because it was a family name and we absolutely loved it. We just started using it when she was a bump and it became her name. Some people hearing it would assume we were choosing it to seek attention or because we were making some kind of statement about how wonderful we are - we weren't, it was quite simply the name that fitted our DD. I think most people are going to think a name is pretentious based on their feelings about it, not because of the reasons the parents chose it. We gave her normal middle names to compensate in case she hates it when she's older - there's also one very normal-sounding shortening which is handy. We've had mostly very positive reactions which is lovely It does make naming no.2 a bit tricky though!

I think a name is only pretentious if it is chosen for other people.

If you name a child in order to project the image of yourself that you want others to see.

That name can be Kanye-Diddy or Ottilie-Harriet.

A name should be chosen because the parents like it. In some families certain names are very important and that is fine too.

I dont think there is any difference in the way that working class aspirational and middle class aspirational parents choose names. They do it for the same reasons, its just the names that are different. And of course its terrific fun to take the piss out of Kelly marie and her little Mackenzie-Morgan

just an anecdote on princess tiiaammii or however you spell it. She goes to a children's establishment where my son goes and her namepeg is always placed next to a little boys called William to read "Princess William" which makes me laugh - but bit sad to see a little girl having the p taken out of her, indirectly admittedly, before she is even aware of the fact that her parents are insanepretentious.

Also why bother with the tiiammi bit if she is only ever know as princess (I think I prefer Tiiammi - sounds less like a poodle)

Leonora and Annabella would just make me wonder if the parents were Italian. I wouldn't instantly think pretentious. Although perhaps Lenore and Annabel together might make me think Allen Poe fan??

Annabel seems plainer to me than Isabel, but Isabel is serviceable and Annabel is over the top posh???

Maybe I have to take back some of what I said!! I would never have thought Annabel was over the top posh.

Araminta, Tarquin, Jolyon and Antigone would be 'too far' for me. I guess everybody's line is different.

Tiiammi is just too ridiculous. She is a gorgeous child luckily!

I loved Isadora then my sister reminded me when we were little we liked a book called 'Wizadora' and since then (and her singing the song) I always think Wizadora not Isadora

I have an Ottilie. It's a family name (German). She gets called Ottilie Butterly at school.

at Stannie's Graco buggy....have one too, on visit to HV the other day DP was disgusted that all the knackers there had the same.....Think I would rather die than buy a Bugaboo...kinda reverse snobbery tho!

Just to clarify - I like the name Ottilie. Think its v.pretty.

I've come to the conclusion that the age of the parents plays a huge part in determining if a child will have a so called pretentious name. I have noticed that parents who have their children in their 30's usually give them more unusual or trendy names. I know that this is a sweeping statement but it is something I have noticed in my own family circle. Interestingly enough the family members having children in their 20's are more conservative with their choices .For instance my DD's best friend had a baby boy yesterday and called him Jamie Allan. Allan is a family name.

Okay fair comment Maggiebeau - just why do I like Isobel/le and not Annabelle? Well I think it's that Annabelle just seems to me like an over-elaboration of Anna (which I love), and frankly a fairly recent one at that, whereas Isobel is a time-honoured name. Annabelle - and I've even looked it up now anorak-style and one board suggests a mishearing of the Hebrew(?) Amabel - but it me it's ooh no darling Anna isn't quite beeootiful enough so let's add 'belle' for that extra glitter and French-ness (only I've never met a French Annabelle). Bit like Tinkerbelle to me, stick em both on top of the Christmas tree...

Am sure I've read Annabella in Jane Austen or somewhere?

Same with Leonora - they were about in the 19th Century I think.

So not 'Tinkerbellesque' in that respect.

So maybe Annabelle is more pretensious?

I like Elodie (popular in France I think) surprised not more popular.

Lord Byron's mother was 'Annabella' there you go, just doing a bit of googling.

Two can google! His mother was Catherine Gordon. His wife was Anne Isabella - nick named Annabella (presumably by Byron himself - and let's face it - he was hardly unpretentious at times!).

So - tis made up. But maybe you just found the (pretentious) original. And indeed tis an elaboration of good old Isabell(a). Annabelle sounds even more made up IMO as has a French ending to an Italian/English 'a' on Anna.

And don't get me started on the Elodies and Aurelies. Yes yes I concede that they are authentic French names. But to my mind they are Barbie movie names - the kind of name my six year old DD would think is beeootiful.

(Look, in real life, like all MNers I am sweet, reasonable and complimentary on all things. If you told me your child was named Aurelie I would tell you how wonderful I thought it was. But if you want a MN honest injun opinion..

Goes away to become sweet reasonable self...

I think it depends on the family. If our baby is a girl it is likely that she will be called Annabel. Annabella is too pretensious for our family although I do know a little Annabella and it suits her and her family perfectly. I think the name Hermione is very pretty but again it is too posh for us and I think people would think we were trying too hard. I did suggest it to a friend when she was pregnant as I thought they could get away with it. We aren't posh enough to get away with a a name like Tarquin or Peregrine, Annabel or Alexander are as "posh" as we can get away with.

Pretentious even.

Elodie is beautiful! c'mon.

Bellissima I can see where you are coming from a little on Elodie, even though I quite like it.

Interesting re: Byron, but are you sure 'Annabella' does not exist in its own right?

Leonora certainly does (I wonder if it has European/Danish origins as I know several Danish friends who seem to favour it along with Elvira - which is Spanish isn't it)? I am getting confused now!

I think today anything goes, within reason

I have a good friend called Friday - now that's been a hard one to live up to! Although she carries it off very well (is pushing 40 now.

Of course, we called our PFB Chloe.

Well, I say Chloe, but it is actually spelt Fchloe. With the first 'f' silent, of course.

Great thread! I've just read it all after finding the link on the MN newsletter.

I have a v unusual name that none of you would have heard of before. I think girls get away with unusual names more than boys do.

When we are playing "pretentious posh make-believe" we call our son Tarquin and have been heard to apologise to him that the organic brie was out of stock at La Fromagerie so he will have to make do with non-organic (gasp!).

I love the names Kitty, Tilly, Freya as they're kinda old fashioned. I think the name Harriet is pretty posh. I also think Arthur, Alfie, Otto and Oscar are a bit "try hard". Sorry if I've offended anyone.

We have friends who named their little boy Edgar........ hmmm?

I quite like "sheepdog names" like Mack or Tex. It would make life so much easier rounding up the pack with a dog whistle.

Cortina - I never mentioned Leonora in the first place. If you want my opinion on it Leo = ok boy's name, Nora = not that nice girl's name, combination = a bit OTT. If I liked that sound I would go for Eleonor(e).

Do you mean do I know a 'real' Annabelle(a) in literature/history - other than Lady Made-up Byron - nope I don't think so, but stand to be corrected. Back to the top of the Chrimbo tree Annabelle - you are yet to be justified.

Own up to being a complete hypocrite on the Elodie/Aurelie coz I like Eloise, which must surely fall into the same sugar-coated camp. But you see the Damned recorded Eloise - so it appeals to my (rapidly fading) punk side.

As for Elvira - dunno whether its Danish but innit the MIL in Bewitched?? (The show that brought us Darren???)

I think Persephone is extremely pretentious. A lot of those Greek names are, to my ear.

Mungo just makes me howl with laughter. I hate those 'he's a real boy's boy' names - Woody, Sonny etc.

My wife wanted to call our daughter "Augusta" because she was born in August. I said I couldn't stand the idea of my child being named after a golf course.....

mrcerec

What about that young actor in 'Outnumbered'-Tyger Drew Honey?That is a really odd name imho whereas Persephone is well ok I suppose-a bit like Penelope with attitude

Annabel Lee [poem]

Mmmmm... Are "foreign" names all pretentious then?

Eleonora, Annabella, Enzo are all Italian names which are pretty "run of the mill" (not megapopular either but not pretentious). It may be the same with Antigone, Ariadne and Persephone in Greece. Is it the fact that British people adopt them without having an obvious connection that makes them pretentious?

My posh girls school 20+ years ago was full of names ending in an A or an 'e' sound.

Does that stll hold true? I think it might in the main!

I have a fondness for names like Pixie and Trixie, Honey and Kitty.

I do.

I also like Woody and Sonny.

My children have unusual but not weird names. I like rock star names. More on the Woody/Gene side than the Dwezil/Moonbeam though.

I find this subject really interesting and it was not until I started coming on forums that I realised just how contentious (sp) the whole thing was.

I am amazed at how strongly people feel about certain names, labeling them chavvy and vile or posh and ridiculous.

Maybe its because this is the internet and not RL? Although I have been asked lots of times 'have you got any names yet?' and when I reply I have been astounded at the rudeness!

Oh no you cant call it that! Oh cant I? Why because a friend's sister in law that I have only met once says I cant? Yeah right.

It is natural to have a instinctive reaction to a name. Its natural not to like or to like names too. Has naming your child ever been as complicated class-wise as it is now?

Were there common names and middle class names in the 20s or 30s?

Lots of names like Daisy, Evie, Ruby, Poppy, Rosie etc used to be associated with servants/maids!

I thought Ann, Anna etc were from Hannah (heb) and Annabel, Annabella from Amabel (Norman).

Apparently (according to OCN), first occurrence of Annabel was the name of a daughter of the Earl of Moray in C12.

More occurrences of Annabel:

<Anabelle> early 1400's
<Annable> middle 1500's
<Annabell> late 1500's

Not really relevant to this thread but I can't forget someone on another names thread mentioning little Shiloh Pitt and spoonerisms.... (think about it!)

Re the Greek names - plenty of Greek names are normal in the UK, such as Chloe.. er.. Xanthe... must be others...

Double first/hyphenated names had similar rep I think (as seen on here) to the present:
" do not think that we resemble
Betsey Jane or Mary Ann,
Women born in lowly cottage,
Bred for broom or frying-pan"

Phoebe too - many 'foreign' names in top 100 I'd say.

Very interesting thread, and a real eye-opener about British culture, even moreso than the constant worrying and wondering about possible teasing and nicknames on the Baby Names section. This is a discussion that simply would not happen in the US.

hf,you have reminded me of something my nan once said.Her MIL,my great grandmother aways had servants and long after she had died my cousin was born and named Sarah Jane.I remember my nan saying that GGM wouldn't have approved of the name at all,as it was a 'maids name'.

Something which has always interested me are the names popular with African Americans,ie Taquanda,Latoyah ect.They are very individual and don't seem to be taken up by any other groups.I'd be interested to know if they are chosen because their parents consciously avoided 'white' names as a hangover from the days when slaves were not allowed to use traditional African names,but were given white Engish names instead.I'd love to know.

There is no way Leonora should be considered poncy.
It is a very old name from at least the 17thC.

It ticks all the right boxes for any DD born this century.

Sounds beautiful (say it out loud).
Simple to spell and easy to pronounce.

Graceful, elegant and with plenty of NN's.

It is recognized throughout all European countries.

The perfect name.

FuriousG- Glad I gave you an intersting memory!

I read an article which said that the 'below stairs' names of yesteryear become the middle class names of the day.

My mother sneers at Violet, Milly, Tilly, etc. I love Violet but her generation have memories of a decaying, aggressive 'Aunty Vi' or similar. (Hate V or Vi as shortenings).

So it is more than likely that today's 'chav names' will be tomorrow's Evies etc.

As far as 'African American names' go (and this is why this sort of conversation might not happen in the US) there are both ethnic and class factors involved.

Most of the names that would be identified as "African American", of the kind FuriousGeorge has in mind, would probably be the result of a parent wishing to give a child a first name that is unique -- plenty of caucasian Americans do this too, btw, but there is a line drawn, don't know exactly how, between 'unique' white names and 'unique' African American names, with very little crossover (one exception that springs to mind is Jaden type names for boys). Of course, plenty of African Americans do not choose such names, same for non-African Americans.

I don't think there's any conscious effort to avoid slave names and return to African roots, since most of the names readily identifiable as 'African American' are a mixture of Arabic, European and sub Saharan African names and name fragments. But maybe there's a consciousness of the randomness and arbitrary nature of the origins of African American surnames that results in a greater emphasis on the given names -- so perhaps there is a certain level of origin-consciousness.

mathanxiety-thankyou,I was really interested in what you had to say and you explain it very well.I get what you mean about the 'crossover names too.

I have a Lachlan and a Madison. I love Lachlan as I think it's a strong name but not too commonly used. Madison....I just love it. No other reason.

Lachlan and Madison aren't pretentious.

You never know, on this site someone may well find Lachlan and Madison pretentious .

I have a Lochlann and a Tabitha - I used to have a Mirrin. I don't think any of them are pretentious?

Names are pretentious when they are both very rare and have never been fashionable, in an attempt to find a name for a child that no-one else has. "Trying too hard" to be different is pretentious!

Was that a hint BonsoirAnna?

I think pretentious is when people try to be upper class about it. A bit Frasier Crane really.

I find 'Cosmo' (I think that's the name, it always crops up on here. It's something like that anyway) very pretentious. Though I know many on here like it.

I think I am definitely working class, as much as I subconsciously aspire otherwise.

Can foreigners get away with names that would otherwise be considered 'pretentious'? I mean, we don't belong in any 'class' ..

Also, names that are considered 'pretentious' in one country are considered very common in another.

A caustic-minded observer might raise an eyebrow at an unusual name, only to discover it was an old family name that went back centuries. I have a DD whose unusual name has been mentioned on this thread -- she was named after ancestors over several generations.

I am getting annoyed with all the name stuff on MN...just seen my own name used as an exammple of a Boden woman, whatever! It's kind of rude, and can only hurt feelings, so what is the point? I hate lots of names, for lots of reasons, but I don't go telling people.

I understand you're upset- my name and my DS's name have both been slaughtered on here before. But you are on a 'names' thread so you will see opinions on names.

I dont think it matters if you call your child a 'chav' or 'pretentious' name as long as you like it & i dont think the name you choose reflects on the parent(s) I had a Chardonnay 16 yrs ago(r.i.p) way before it bacame so called chavvy & i have a Baylee but i certainly am no chav or am i a snob. The children with these so called names can aspire to be wotever they want to be a name doesnt make the person