To think it is unfair that Scots and Welsh students don't have to pay for university education whereas English students do, even if they attend a Scots or Welsh university?

(132 Posts)
Dolcelatte Tue 26-Aug-14 18:22:26

It just doesn't seem fair at all to me. Young English students are saddled with a mountain of debt at a young age whereas, as I understand the position, the Scots and Welsh don't have to pay. No doubt some wise MNer will correct me if I'm wrong.

I don't have anything against the Scots or Welsh students or begrudge them their good fortune; they are very lucky. And I know that life isn't fair, but even so....
(this is where I would sign off with a suitable emoticon but IT skills sadly lacking by this mother of 2 DC at English universities).

Euphemia Tue 26-Aug-14 18:28:50

I guess it's up to the Westminster government to change the situation in England, but I agree that it's monstrously unfair that a student from Berwick has to pay to go to Edinburgh, whereas one from Greece doesn't.

TeenagersDriveMeMad Tue 26-Aug-14 18:37:30

Erm, the Welsh still pay just over £3500 in fees and are lucky enough to have a government who have prioritised funding the shortfall (another £5500). So they're still paying £3500 a year.

I do agree it's not fair that the English students don't have their fees subsidised. But then if the Westminster gov turned round and did what the Welsh gov is doing there would've been no point in raising the fees. The government have fucked themselves over anyway - there's no way that the average English student with the max fee loan (£9k) and a maintenance loan of £5k over 3 years (=£42k) is going to pay that off before retirement.

DoristheCamel Tue 26-Aug-14 18:37:43

Welsh do pay but not as much.

Welsh also get free prescriptions but we aldo have longer hospital waiting lists.

Having lived in England, Scotland and Wales I have to say its swings and roundabouts. One sector of society wins another loses.

CoolCat2014 Tue 26-Aug-14 18:38:47

Yes it's unfair, but that's how the governments have decided to allocate funds. Makes staying in Wales seem more attractive though!

PhaedraIsMyName Tue 26-Aug-14 18:43:01

It is monstrously unfair. No question about it.

squoosh Tue 26-Aug-14 18:44:56

In ten years time, whether Scotland is independent or not, the Scots will be charging fees too. But you're right, it does seem pretty unfair as it stands.

ilovechristmas1 Tue 26-Aug-14 18:51:15

YANBU two of my sons may well be at Uni in 2yrs time (twins)

im a single parent and am starting to worry about this,if they still want to go then i will do whatever is needed but i cant help thinking how we are going to make it happen

yes it does seem unfair after many MP's etc recieved free uni education etc

Perihelion Tue 26-Aug-14 18:52:54

Scottish students have to pay tuition fees if they study in England.

I think it should be a right to have free education up to degree level if you have the ablility.

You get what the majority vote for.

BackforGood Tue 26-Aug-14 18:58:58

It does seem SO unequal though - swings and roundabouts over paying for the odd prescription maybe, but that's not really comparative with a £5500 difference in fees (per yr)... you'd need an awful lot of prescriptions for that to become an issue.
My ds is going to University in Wales, and it seems wrong his flatmates and the people on his course have such a discrepancy in what they are paying to be there, when they are all from the UK, and presumably all taxed the same (well will be, or, their parents are now).

Munchmallow Tue 26-Aug-14 19:04:30

I was born in Scotland, DD was born in Scotland, but because we moved to England just before she started at a Scottish uni, we she had to pay four year's worth of fees. Now that's not fair.

And it's not Scots who get free university education, it's people who are resident in Scotland.

EverythingIsAwesome Tue 26-Aug-14 19:24:50

I am extremely grateful that I am able to study for my degree right now, with the only cost to me will be the student loan I have taken out for living expenses (live in Scotland).

hackmum Tue 26-Aug-14 19:32:01

Munchmallow: "And it's not Scots who get free university education, it's people who are resident in Scotland."

I've been trying to find out for ages - but can't - how long do you have to be resident in Scotland before you qualify for free tuition?

Bambambini Tue 26-Aug-14 19:34:34

Why don'tcha move to Scotland or Wales then? They obviously have their priorities on what they spend their budget on in the right place.

Bambambini Tue 26-Aug-14 19:36:48

And this is one of the reasons many Scots want independence - Westminster/the southeast and Scotland's priorities and political leanings are very different.

GoblinLittleOwl Tue 26-Aug-14 19:39:01

I believe students from the EU have reduced fees if they study in Scotland, or else their country subsidises them. The only students who have to pay are English students.

MehsMum Tue 26-Aug-14 19:41:16

Don't even start me on this one... Bloody unfair that my DC will leave lumbered with debt whereas Scots kids, living under the same tax regime, won't.

Dolcelatte Tue 26-Aug-14 19:43:17

Bambambini - I can't practise as a lawyer in Scotland because the jurisdiction is different and I am not qualified under Scots law. I could theoretically practise in Wales, but our jobs and families are here in England. We are - at least for the present - all part of the UK, so why should there be such differential and unequal treatment of British citizens on something which is so fundamental to so many families; it does seem to me to be unfair and discriminatory.

SeagullsAndSand Tue 26-Aug-14 19:43:38

Scotland may have different priorities once/if they're independent.Will be interesting to see where all these bucket loads of cash Salmond keeps going on about will materialise from.

titchy Tue 26-Aug-14 19:44:32

Three years hack mum.

DoristheCamel Tue 26-Aug-14 19:47:23

Munchmallow - yes thats shit. We are in a similar situation too.

Bambambini Tue 26-Aug-14 19:49:46

"We are - at least for the present - all part of the UK, so why should there be such differential and unequal treatment of British citizens on something which is so fundamental to so many families; it does seem to me to be unfair and discriminatory."

I can't remember many English folk marching in support of the Scots when they got the Poll Tax a year before the rest of the UK - seems they only bothered when it affected them personally.

I wish English students didn't have to pay fees as well - my kids will have to if they go to uni.

nethunsreject Tue 26-Aug-14 19:51:45

Yanbu, and I say that as a scot in Scotland. I am sick of some fellow Scots whinging about how hard things are for us and how badly we are done to by Westminster when we get more than our neighbours south of the border. Lot of crap.
Having said that, it is only a matter of time before tuition fees are charged here. Coffers are empty.

DoristheCamel Tue 26-Aug-14 19:52:20

Backforgood - yes it would be hell of alot of prescriptions - every single prescription issued in Wales is free.
I don't disagree in the unfairness but we lise in other areas in Wales. Our hospital waiting lists are utter shit compared to England - if I am a healthy student in Wales I cream in with the subsidised fees but if you are unwell and waiting to see a consultatant in Wales you dip out compared to your unwell friends in England who get seen and treated quicker.
There are probably other discrepancies as well. Someone the other day told me school kuds in Wales get less funding than in England - although I have no idea if this is actually correct or not.

As a student in Wales, I benefit from the lowered tuition fees (not free, we get a grant from the Welsh government for half of it, still pay about £3k a year), and the fact that we still have a very generous student finance system including £5,000 a year in the Assembly Learning Grant, which doesn't have to be paid back, and £1,800 loan on top of that (I'm from a very low-income household, the lowest bracket, so I don't think it's as good if you're in a higher earning household).

As someone with medical issues in Wales, I benefit from free prescriptions, but lose out because of the ridiculous waiting lists. I waited 12 months to see a gastroenterologist. I'm very lucky to have been fast-tracked and will be seeing a physiotherapist within 6 weeks of referral, otherwise I have no idea how long I could've been waiting.

My primary and secondary schools were horrendously underfunded, with sports and play equipment non-existant (and school supplies very lacking too!), no activities, only one extra-curricular activity that wasn't sport in the whole area, and very little government funding for any more. It really is swings and roundabouts.

BoneyBackJefferson Tue 26-Aug-14 20:01:50

wasn't it the Scottish MPs that vetoed the free English prescriptions?

HermioneWeasley Tue 26-Aug-14 20:02:28

Yes, inconsistency between uni fees and prescriptions is grossly unfair.

Looking at the GERS figures, it looks like scottish spending on education overall is lower than the UK on a % basis of spending.

FiveGoMadInDorset Tue 26-Aug-14 20:08:13

I am fairly sure but willing to be corrected that Tony Blair could only get the bill through regarding charging English students tuition fees with the help of Scottish MP's.

hackmum Tue 26-Aug-14 20:08:49

Thanks, titchy - too late for us, sadly. Unless we move to Scotland next week...

SquattingNeville Tue 26-Aug-14 20:12:07

They still come out with debt. Tuition fees paid by SAAS when I was at university (2007-2011) were £1800ish a year. I have debt of around £15000 based on four years of maintenance loans. Less debt, yes, but debt all the same.

Karsyn Tue 26-Aug-14 20:43:17

'unfair'? Technically. But life is unfair.

Anotheronebitthedust Tue 26-Aug-14 21:49:00

agree with the 'swings and roundabouts.'

Council tax, for example, is generally higher in Wales, I think because the bands were re-evaluated in 200(3?) whereas they weren't in England. This means that the properties in the highest band in some counties in South Wales (worth from 'only' £424,000) pay more each year than houseowners in Kensington (where houses can be worth millions). This could easily cancel out a few grand extra in tuition over several years.

Plus the hospital waiting lists, as mentioned above, and the comparative lack of jobs in many areas of Wales meaning many of these graduates may have to move to England at some point anyway.

I do agree it's unfair if EU students get cheaper tuition fees in Scotland though, although I'm not sure if that's the case.

But then, English (and Welsh, and Scottish) students are of course free to go to any of the European unis (many of which teach in English) and take advantage of their cheaper/non existent tuition fees too, and I think I remember reading that more and more students are doing so.

TheBogQueen Tue 26-Aug-14 21:53:07

It's up to the Scottish government how it chooses to spend money in Scotland.

If you don't like what's happening on England them vote, protest against this.

TheBogQueen Tue 26-Aug-14 21:54:42

I'm English living in Scotland. I'm glad about the tuition fees but living here I also accept lower wages and no housing boom to speak of.

I think re EU students that the rules say that you can't discriminate against students from other member states - so EU students must be charged the same fees as home students. But it doesn't legislate for discriminating within a member state. So Scotland can charge English or Welsh students, but not French.

TheBogQueen Tue 26-Aug-14 21:57:09

"While the average price of a detached house in the capital was £257,144 in January 1995, by April this year it had risen to £1,320,936 – an increase of 414 per cent."

Now that is unfair

How about that my born-in-Britain-to-British-parents son is a foreign student because we live abroad and so would pay even more (double for instance at the university nearest my family) but someone who is foreign but has lived there a short while can count as resident? He would also have to do an extra foundation year which is more than a UK resident would pay for a regular university year.

He is going to college in the US and his room and board is likely to be $15K for his first year (he has a scholarship for tuition that would otherwise be able $30K pa). The college he originally picked as his first choice would have been about $50K a year after scholarships.

elastamum Tue 26-Aug-14 22:05:46

If it makes you feel any better, if Scotland becomes independent and is allowed to join the EU, they wont be able to charge English students more than other EU member states. {smile]

Their universities will also lose a huge amount of UK research council funding though, which will decimate them. sad

Viviennemary Tue 26-Aug-14 22:11:49

Of course it is totally unacceptable when everyone is paying the same rates of income tax and NI. I'm surprised it's even allowed.

It sucks.
It's NOT 'swings and roundabouts' if you happen to be the student with a minimum of 40k debt, (DD2) or 50k plus (DD1) ... both with multiple health issues also... and paying a fucking fortune on prescription fees.

Both Welsh, but resident in England at the time of applying.. so screwed. No jobs for us back in Wales so not exactly easy to jump ship.

I am pretty sure they would find the fee to have an inital private cosultation (approx £150) in order to speed up the waiting lists, a LOT easier to bear than the 40K +++ debt they are currently incurring!!!!

So no, not swings and roundabouts.. it's unfair, unequal and I hope Wales and Scotland enjoy it while it lasts.

And yes some of us DO vote, and do protest...

TalkinPeace Tue 26-Aug-14 22:21:06

Its called kicking the can down the road.
Head in the sand
Fingers in the ears, la la la

There is no money.
He is borrowing from those very same students' future taxes to pay for their degrees, but in a hidden way

TalkinPeace Tue 26-Aug-14 22:21:59

PS an Independent Scotland will never, ever be allowed to join the EU
Spain, France and Italy will block it with all their energies

LineRunner Tue 26-Aug-14 22:27:19

I agree that today's students will not pay off their 'debt' by the time they are 50 so it's all smoke and mirrors on the deficit accounting front.

Oakmaiden Tue 26-Aug-14 22:27:51

The Welsh Government get given a budget and choose how to spend it. I personally would choose to put more money in primary and secondary education, and ask university students to pay more, but nobody asked me.

Presumably if Scotland votes yes the English students can all merrily apply at Scottish universities and claim their free place (if Scotland is allowed to remain in the EU). Bankrupt in ten minutes is my guess.

caroldecker Tue 26-Aug-14 23:57:15

They will only repay the loan if they earn a decent wage, why should thier higher wages be subsidised by lower earning non-graduates? If they don't earn a decent wage, no or little repayment - don't understand the problem?

Llareggub Wed 27-Aug-14 00:02:13

I moved back to Wales from England and this means my children are disadvantaged. Can't find the link now but welsh children do worse than heir English counterparts in secondary.

We get free entry to museums too! :-)

MrsTerryPratchett that's my understanding. I think Salmond has claimed he won't need to on some random basis - but we'll definitely be in the EU and we will have a currency union so grin

ColdCottage Wed 27-Aug-14 00:11:54

What happens if you move to Scotland just before DC starts or applies for Uni eg Edinburgh?

caroldecker Wed 27-Aug-14 00:34:13

My reading of the rules is that as long as you move to Scotland for reasons other than university (ie you get a job) then there is no time limit required https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/268022/ordinaryresidence.pdf

OldLadyKnowsSomething Wed 27-Aug-14 00:40:01

Not everyone who applies for a place at uni (wherever that uni is) gets one. I don't understand the argument that all Scots uni places will be taken by English kids? (Though I agree that an indy Scotland, which is still part of the EU, would have to extend free places to English candidates.)

Talkinpeace, however, says we'll never be part of the EU, so...

Sheer volume would mean that a lot of the places would be taken though - English population is roughly 10 times that of Scotland, and because we're on the same land mass, speaking the same language etc it wouldn't be unreasonable to expect a very considerable number of applicants which would mean far more competition for each place. If we're not allowed to discriminate then the numbers would suggest a vast number of places going to english students.

OldLadyKnowsSomething Wed 27-Aug-14 00:59:58

Those places would only be taken if iScotland remains part of the EU, (No says we won't...) and rUK doesn't vote to leave in a couple of years. (Which it looks as if they might.)

I think iScotland will, easily, remain a part of the EU, and yes, English students will be able to study at the same cost as Scots, as I said. But if rUK votes to leave the EU, the situation changes; I certainly wouldn't be putting my kids through that particular uncertainty, given their situation could change halfway through their degree (a Scottish degree taking typically 4 years, rather than 3).

wigglybeezer Wed 27-Aug-14 08:07:39

It's not all positive, anecdotally, the cap on the number of Scottish resident students on the most popular courses (they need fee-paying students to make up funding shortfalls) has raised the grades required for local students, and really, really good candidates are being turned away from courses they would have been welcomed onto with open arms in the past and are having to go further afield or take a year out (gap years not being so common up here) having failed to get a place. Admittedly, I am talking about traditionally competitive courses like medicine.

TalkinPeace Wed 27-Aug-14 13:30:13

OldLady
Scotland cannot "remain" part of the EU if it votes yes, because it will be a new country that has never been a member.

And for clear political reasons, Spain, France and Italy will do everything they possibly can to stop a country created by devolution joining.

LittleMissGreen Wed 27-Aug-14 14:16:33

In Welsh schools there is (I think) about £2000 a year less per pupil than in an equivalent school in England, so they just use the money in higher education instead. Hence worse GCSE/A level results in Wales than in England.
In health there may be free prescriptions and free carparking (which benefit the majority) but there are areas of more specialised health care which will not be treated in Wales and the waiting lists are longer.

iamsoannoyed Wed 27-Aug-14 14:54:22

But conversely, if a Scottish student went to an English University they would have to pay the full fees as it is only free to go to Uni in Scotland (if you are Scottish). Don't know what the situation is in Wales.

And I can see why people feel it is unfair- and I suppose it isn't fair in one sense. However, it is up to the Westminster Government to change their policy on student fees and/or for those in England to lobby for that, not for Scotland or Wales to change (unless that is the decision of the respective devolved powers).

Both Scotland's and Wales' devolved parliament/ assembly (respectively) have decided to spend their education budget differently, which they are perfectly within their rights to do. After all, what is the point of a devolved government or an assembly if they have to exactly the same as the Westminster parliament? That would make no sense.

OldLadyKnowsSomething Wed 27-Aug-14 15:30:22

Talkinpeace, there is no mechanism to expel 5 million EU citizens from the EU, and no particular desire to do so either. The t&c of our membership will have to be renegotiated, certainly, but the sheer chaos of us not "continuing" to be members is unthinkable, and deeply undesirable for everyone. The EU is an expansionist body, and a pragmatic one.

Viviennemary Wed 27-Aug-14 15:52:56

If Scotland cannot remain part of the EU after a yes vote because it will be a new country, then could you not say neither should the UK because it will be no longer the United Kingdom and should have to reaply for membership as well. The whole thing is wrong. If I had a vote I'd be voting yes after all this blackmailing and scaremongering from people who pretend to have Scotland's best interests at heart.

JanineStHubbins Wed 27-Aug-14 15:55:14

there is no mechanism to expel 5 million EU citizens from the EU, and no particular desire to do so either.

There's also no mechanism to automatically accept secessionist new states into the EU. And there is an emphatic desire from the likes of France, Spain and Germany to prevent such a precedent.

SantanaLopez Wed 27-Aug-14 15:59:06

This has been gone over a million times, OldLady.

EU citizenship is supplementary (over and above) to national citizenship. The EU is not stripping Scots of citizenship; they are doing it themselves through a yes vote, because if Scotland votes to make itself independent from the UK, then Scotland becomes a new country. The UK remains.

The new country must apply for EU membership and the UK remains.

Applefallingfromthetree2 Wed 27-Aug-14 16:03:21

As I understand it, it is also the case that students from other parts of the EU do not have to pay university tuition fees when attending Scottish universities. It is only the English that are penalised. This is unfair and amounts to discrimination.

OldLadyKnowsSomething Wed 27-Aug-14 16:09:06

There is no precedent for what happens when we vote Yes, so really we're all just speculating. WM could ask the question and get a definitive answer; that they refuse tells me everything I need to know. wink

Applefalling, it's perfectly legal. We accept EU students on the same basis as our own, but England is a region of the UK and we don't have to accept them on that basis. English students can, of course, go and study elsewhere in the EU under the same conditions as their citizens, I think I read (not sure if on this thread or another) that parts of Germany and the Netherlands have lower fees than England. It might be worth investigating, if you have teens.

SantanaLopez Wed 27-Aug-14 16:09:25

Yes, you are right apple. Incredibly, the White Paper on independence argues that this is alright because of 'the unique and unprecedented position of a post-independent Scotland'.

<loses will to live>

Viviennemary Wed 27-Aug-14 16:12:45

There won't be a UK after a yes vote. As Wales is a principality and I don't think NI can be counted as a Kingdom. So they will have to apply to rejoin. That's my opinion.

SantanaLopez Wed 27-Aug-14 16:14:35

WM could ask the question and get a definitive answer

No they couldn't. This has also been explained to you. The EU does not work like this!

JanineStHubbins Wed 27-Aug-14 16:16:27

It's the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, though - changes to the makeup of Great Britain won't change the United Kingdom bit.

Viviennemary Wed 27-Aug-14 16:17:47

Oh well it was worth a try. grin

Applefallingfromthetree2 Wed 27-Aug-14 16:17:48

Old lady-so it is legal, but how unfair, and it does sound a bit nasty to be honest 'we don't have to accept our fellow UK students on the same basis so we won't', we'll just let them be the only students from the EU that have to pay.

JanineStHubbins Wed 27-Aug-14 16:19:29

smile

LittleMissGreen Wed 27-Aug-14 16:19:41

Wales is now a country not a principality and has been for a few years.

SantanaLopez Wed 27-Aug-14 16:19:47

There won't be a UK after a yes vote. As Wales is a principality and I don't think NI can be counted as a Kingdom. So they will have to apply to rejoin. That's my opinion.

Your opinion is wrong.

The UK continued after Ireland gained independence and it will continue if Scotland chose independence.

It's question 4137 in ink{http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201314/cmselect/cmscotaf/uc140-xiii/uc14001.htmwww.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201314/cmselect/cmscotaf/uc140-xiii/uc14001.htm document} and it is addressed thoroughly here too.

SantanaLopez Wed 27-Aug-14 16:20:58

Try again! here and here

JanineStHubbins Wed 27-Aug-14 16:21:11

Although it is a moot point whether the United Kingdom would continue if NI went independent/joined the Republic. Technically not, I suppose.

taxi4ballet Wed 27-Aug-14 16:26:22

Scotland has a Parliament, Wales and NI each have an Assembly, where their MP's can vote on matters relating to their country; and England has... oh, hang on a minute... nothing.

Oh yes, here in England we have the Houses of Parliament, where not only English MP's but Scottish, NI and Welsh MP's can vote on English-only matters. Is that entirely fair? Not really, no.

Especially when you bear in mind they occasionally vote one way for themselves and entirely the opposite in the Houses of Parliament when it comes to implementing the same thing in England.

Viviennemary Wed 27-Aug-14 16:27:26

But if you are a principality you can still be a country like Monaco for instance. Gosh it's getting a bit like pointless when Richard gives his definition of a country. When we say country we mean ..... I wonder if it will all leave a very sour taste after the decision is made whatever it may be.

It's debatable whether Scotland not automatically joining the eu would count as stripping citizenship though isn't it? scots are currently British citizens, and my understanding from previous situations eg where colonies became independent was that those people didn't cease to be British. So would scots not still be eu citizens by virtue of their British citizenship even if we weren't in the eu?

SantanaLopez Wed 27-Aug-14 16:33:21

I wonder if it will all leave a very sour taste after the decision is made whatever it may be.

I think it will be, which is really, really sad. I hope it's a decisive vote but all of the polls so far are really quite close.

That's a good point, stats, but it gets you back onto the point of having a whole country populated by expats confused Anyway, there's a full thread for this!

JanineStHubbins Wed 27-Aug-14 16:34:19

Oooh, good point StatisticallyChallenged.

OpiesOldLady Wed 27-Aug-14 16:36:50

Wales also has free breakfast club for all primary aged schoolchildren.

Applefallingfromthetree2 Wed 27-Aug-14 16:37:22

So am I right in thinking that after a 'yes' vote Scotland, as no longer part of the UK, would need to accept English students to Scottish universities on the same basis as other EU students and not charge them fees? Or will Scotland no longer be part of the EU? Quietly screaming here!

JanineStHubbins Wed 27-Aug-14 16:38:16

So am I right in thinking that after a 'yes' vote Scotland, as no longer part of the UK, would need to accept English students to Scottish universities on the same basis as other EU students and not charge them fees? Or will Scotland no longer be part of the EU? Quietly screaming here!

Yes, but only if Scotland remains part of the EU. Which is not at all clear.

wafflyversatile Wed 27-Aug-14 16:41:13

Your issue is not with Scotland or Wales or their students but with Westminster. They are not lucky. You are unlucky.

SantanaLopez Wed 27-Aug-14 16:41:29

We'd have to reapply to the EU.

If we could do that in the 18 month period from this September to March 2016, in the September of 2017 English/Welsh/NI students would have to be accepted with no tuition fees or they would have to start charging everyone.

If it takes longer, the current situation might be able to stay in place. But I would argue that we'd have to adhere to EU rules in the application process anyway to show compliance, so again, they'd either have to let English/Welsh/NI in free or start charging everyone.

Clear as mud!

Applefallingfromthetree2 Wed 27-Aug-14 16:47:19

A whole country populated by 'expats' -this really made me laugh Santana. It seems to be getting more and more ridiculous. Has any of this really been thought through, it's turning into a bureaucratic nightmare.

We have got better things to spend our money on surely. And don't even get me started on the flag

iamsoannoyed Wed 27-Aug-14 16:48:58

taxi

but MPs who vote in Westminster are not the same people who are Member of Scottsh parliament (MSPs)/welsh or NI assembly members- so they aren't voting one way and then another.

In scotland it is Scottish Labour/Conservative/LibDem- and whilst they broadly have the same policies, they are not just duplicates of the westminster party (in theory). So it is possible that westminster labour MP may vote differently from a Scottish Labour MSP. I think there is a general lack of understanding on this.

The only way to fix things to address the issues that many English people raise here re MPs from outside England voting on purely English matters, such as education and health, is to have an english parliament. Scotland has benefitted from a parliament which actually care about Scotland (before this it felt like we were pretty much an after thought in a south-east England-centric government).

If you didn't do this, and just banned Scottish/NI/Welsh MPs from voting on English matters you would in effect bar anybody not from England (or at least whose constituency is outside England) from holding any sort of government office. After all, how could you have a welsh or scottish PM or say education secretary if they were unable to propose a policy or vote on their own or their governments policy for instance?

Mrsjayy Wed 27-Aug-14 16:51:38

Yes it is unfair clegg promised it for England he has let his country down oh scots fees are not paid by Westminster btw some were hinting at that .

SantanaLopez Wed 27-Aug-14 16:52:35

A whole country populated by 'expats' -this really made me laugh Santana. It seems to be getting more and more ridiculous. Has any of this really been thought through, it's turning into a bureaucratic nightmare.

I know! We were talking about it on one of the other threads. Britain surely can't declare all of Scotland's British passports void, but yet they really have to or else there will be a supposedly independent country with no citizens! It's madness.

JanineStHubbins Wed 27-Aug-14 16:56:43

A whole country populated by 'expats' -this really made me laugh Santana. It seems to be getting more and more ridiculous. Has any of this really been thought through, it's turning into a bureaucratic nightmare.

Well, the precedent exists from when the Irish Free State was established in 1922. Some people went for Irish citizenship only, some retained their British citizenship. As far as I know, people born in the Republic of Ireland can still claim British citizenship if they had a grandparent born in Ireland before 1922. And it wasn't a bureaucratic nightmare.

There wasn't the EU complication then, mind you.

Britain surely can't declare all of Scotland's British passports void, but yet they really have to or else there will be a supposedly independent country with no citizens!

No, there won't be. British citizenship can be held alongside other citizenships (is that a word?).

empathetic Wed 27-Aug-14 16:57:21

1. People are quick to blame "Westminster" but it was the Scottish MPs in Westminster that swung the vote to bring in uni fees! It is the classic West Lothian question.....the Scots get to vote on what happens in England on student fees but the english do not get a say in Scotland. We need an English parliament.

2. If Scotland vote for independence then they won't be able to continue charging English and Scottish students different fees (ie none compared with £9k per annum) as this will be discriminatory against another member state (assuming Scotland remains in the EU). At the moment they can discriminate as "England" is only part of the home state. Other Europeans also get free education at degree level in Scotland already due to EU discrimination laws.

amothersplaceisinthewrong Wed 27-Aug-14 17:00:31

If Scotland becomes independent then can we in England charge overseas rates to Scottish students.....

TalkinPeace Wed 27-Aug-14 17:05:02

"expel?"
Who ever said anything about "expel"

If Scotland walks away from the EU - in the same way that England and Wales might, they walk away.
They then have to apply to join
in the same way the UK did in 1971 after De Gaulle stopped blocking it
in the same way Slovakia and the Czech republic did
in the same way that each fragment of the former Yugoslavia has had to apply

If you believe that EU membership is a given if there is a 'yes' vote next month you need to read more different news sources.
Spain, France and Italy will do everything in their power to stop any 'devolved' country joining the EU

SantanaLopez Wed 27-Aug-14 17:05:14

No, there won't be. British citizenship can be held alongside other citizenships (is that a word?).

Thanks!

Apparently Westminster could still veto shared Scottish-British citizenships?

It just seems bonkers to potentially have a full country of British expats, depending on how quickly a Scottish passport office could be set up.

JanineStHubbins Wed 27-Aug-14 17:08:55

Apparently Westminster could still veto shared Scottish-British citizenships?

Possibly for future people born in Scotland after independence comes into force (should it happen), not sure if Westminster can retrospectively strip citizenship. It won't take long to set up a Scottish passport office, though - all those things will be in place before then.

Applefallingfromthetree2 Wed 27-Aug-14 17:12:40

It does seem the devil is in the detail -or lack of it. So much left unclear, so many unanswered questions, everything driven by nationalism and perceived economic gain.

SantanaLopez Wed 27-Aug-14 17:13:29

Thanks Janine!

TalkinPeace Wed 27-Aug-14 17:20:06

When Yugoslavia fell apart, Yugoslav passports were valid until new ones could be issued.
Ditto (in a far more peaceful manner) the breakup of Czechoslovakia.

Nobody will be stateless.
BUT
If Scotland is daft enough to vote no, they may find themselves out on the end of a very long limb.

Spain in particular will take great pleasure in obstructing every move towards integration with Europe for reasons that have nothing to do with Edinburgh.

TalkinPeace Wed 27-Aug-14 17:20:44

Yes, sorry .... no to UK was my brain
Scotland would be mad to vote for independence

empathetic Wed 27-Aug-14 17:33:32

mothersplace Yes, if Scotland becomes independent and not a member of EU then we can (?will) charge Scottish students overseas rates. If they join the EU then we cannot charge them more than we charge home students.

I agree with talkingPeace, Scotland would be mad to vote for independence. As an english taxpayer, though< I think we would come out of it quite well.

iamsoannoyed Wed 27-Aug-14 18:30:56

empathetic- I doubt there will be a yes vote. I also doubt if there was a yes vote that the english tax payer would be much better off. There is some debate about the actual figures, but most analysts think Scotland probably produces in revenues roughly the same, or a little more, than it receives as a block grant income. This is muddied by the UK-wide companies and whether they would still be here if Scotland left the union. I am not a rabid Scottish nationalist, but nor do I believe all the "Scotland lives on the back of the English taxpayer" that has been peddled.

ApocalypseNowt Wed 27-Aug-14 19:10:32

Haven't read the other Scottish independence threads but this one is v interesting.

Lots of stuff about it over on twitter and from my news feed the #yesvote seems to have a fair bit of momentum (hardly representative i know).

I wonder what the voter turnout will be for it?

TalkinPeace Wed 27-Aug-14 19:58:25

iamsoannoyed
Its less an issue about the Scotland / England issue
than
if Scotland leave the Union, they leave the EU
and with that lose access to ENORMOUS amounts of funds and jobs and grants and trade
which will be catastrophic for the economy.

King Alec tries to tell people it will be OK with the EU.
It won't.
Spain, France and Italy all have INCREDIBLY strong vested interests to allow devolved countries being admitted to membership.
Scotland will be in limbo at the least for years on
- EU agriculture grants
- EU trade allowances (duty free etc)
- EU University funding
- EU industrial / regional grants

and that is before anything the twits at Westminster do.

Student funding will be a teeny tiny issue compared with the job losses

Euphemia Wed 27-Aug-14 20:17:05

They're anticipating a voter turnout of 70-80%.

I haven't seen any polls that put Yes ahead of No, but the gap between the two is closing.

Celticlass2 Wed 27-Aug-14 21:24:07

If it is a no, can Scotland have another referendum in say 10 years time, or is it the end of the road as far as independence is concerned?

Legally, that's up to the UK government. Whether the Scottish government has the legal power to hold a referendum is questionable. They were specifically granted the power to hold this one by the UK parliament.

As a matter of politics though, if the SNP were re-elected on a manifesto commitment to hold another referendum, I couldn't see the UK government opposing it, unless it was clearly going to be a complete waste of everyone's time (i.e., clear likely No vote).

* I couldn't see the UK government opposing it*

I could if we got to a slightly silly neverendum situation - for example if it was a No, SNP then campaigned on a referendum pledge in 2016 and won and immediately pushed for another referendum I don't think they would agree.

Yes, I agree, unless there had been some major political upheaval of some sort. But imagine if in the decade following a no vote, the SNP continued to gain support, polls started to show a pro Yes majority, and the Tories remained both in government and unpopular in Scotland, then I think the argument would succeed. My fear is that this is what will happen.

OldLadyKnowsSomething Thu 28-Aug-14 03:27:33

Talkinpeace, while it's all very well to talk about the subsidies we wouldn't recieve, you ignore the fact that we are net contributors. So, in the (very unlikely) case we are indeed chucked out of the EU, we would not be paying into the subsides of others and all of that money coild be used to support our own farmers.

Or y'know, land reform.

TalkinPeace Thu 28-Aug-14 10:17:25

Scotland is not a net contributor to the EU
and what about the University jobs that would vanish ....

empathetic Thu 28-Aug-14 10:58:03

Iamsoannoyed I wasn't thinking so much about being better off economically. I was thinking of:

We could have double summer time (yay!)
We could vote out student fees (yay!)
We could get a govt we voted for, and not have it swung to a different party by the Scottish MPs (a lot of parliaments, excepting Blair's landslide, would have had a different majority party without Scotland)

I suppose I just fancy self determination for the English, really.

Empathetic that's not true re Scotland changing the results, it's only been a couple of times where it has prevented a majority I believe.

We already have self-determination.

empathetic Thu 28-Aug-14 11:29:35

A couple of times is maybe 6 or 8 years of government! That is def not self determination.

empathetic Thu 28-Aug-14 11:33:17

Just found this in New Statesman January 2012:

"What is true is that so long as British politics remains "hung", Labour cannot afford for Scotland to go it alone. Were it not for Miliband's Scottish MPs, the Tories would have won a majority of 19 at the last election. The loss of Scotland, coupled with the coalition's boundary changes (which will deprive Labour of 28 seats, the Tories of 7 and the Lib Dems of 11), would stack the odds against a Labour majority."

So we would currently have a Tory govt and not coalition right now if we were really able to self determine (and we could easily have been having a Labour/LibDem coalition right now if Clegg had got into bed with Labour, despite the country having voted by a majority for the Tories). Whatever your personal voting preferences (mine are not Tory), it is def true that we don't currently have the govt we voted for. I would view that situation changing as a real positive if Scotland goes independent.

Cherriesandapples Thu 28-Aug-14 11:38:02

You may be jealous of fees but you probably have a hospital within a reasonable distance! Debt over life and death....

empathetic Thu 28-Aug-14 11:58:30

Cherries true! But it's not really about jealousy, it's about self determination. I am all for the Scottish deciding how they want to spend their money (eg education more than health, if that is what they choose) and for England to do the same.

OTOH, really, I suspect we are "better together", as they say.

I don't agree. English seats dominate the Westminster parliament. This parliament (or at least the most important chamber in it) is elected at regular intervals. If that is not self-determination then name me one country that has it.

The English already have the power to govern their own affairs. They cannot be outvoted in the parliament that legislates for their country. Which brings one back to the OP of this thread: the English could have had the same deal as the Scots by electing a party that had the same manifesto commitment: the Lib Dems.

empathetic Thu 28-Aug-14 18:17:17

Toad yes, english seats dominate Westminster but it is Scottish seats that swing the balance of power between parties, and therefore determine who forms the actual government.

Empathetic, scottish votes have not changed the result in the majority of elections. I've seen the full analysis somewhere, but in recent times it is only the current election where the outcome was changed. There have only been, I think, 4 since ww2 where the Scottish result changed the outcome. The only one in recent times was the current government.

Of course, you appear to think that Scottish people are some sort of "other" who have less of a right to a say in the government than English people. Or you could, alternatively, pick 59 other constituencies which tend to never elect the Tories (there's plenty of them, try looking in ex mining towns) and say that they prevent you having self determination...

Marmiteandjamislush Thu 28-Aug-14 18:38:23

This is why, as an English person living in England I am aching for a yes vote. The Scottish should have no say in Westminster or English politics, that is why we pay and they don't.

Marmiteandjamislush Thu 28-Aug-14 18:47:50

I also hate the propaganda that the English want to keep Scotland 'yoked', that is just not the case. I also hate that we are not allowed to be proud of being English, but the Scottish are allowed to be Scottish, the Welsh, Welsh and the Irish Irish, but us, no we must be British otherwise we are colonialist or racist. I hate it. sad

OldLadyKnowsSomething Thu 28-Aug-14 19:10:25

Eh? What don't we pay?

OldLadyKnowsSomething Thu 28-Aug-14 19:12:28

Oh, you mean tuition fees, of course! blush Sorry, I thought you meant you pay for Westminster, and we don't.

Bambambini Thu 28-Aug-14 23:04:29

Because the Westminster government actually means the english government in many english folks minds. I've heard folk moan in the past at having to have a scottish PM, chancellor etc because of course they should be English.

Dolcelatte Fri 29-Aug-14 07:17:33

Toad, I am bemused that you think that the Lib Dems would have stuck to their manifesto. It took about 5 minutes for Nick Clegg to sell students down the river once it was politically expedient for him to do so, by voting in fees for students, despite previously saying that he would not do so. At that stage, I lost all respect for him and the party which he supposedly represents.

Clegg should have maintained his stance on something as important as this and, if he truly believed in the principle of free education, he should have been prepared to resign over it. But self interest came first, as it always seems to with politicians of all shades and nationalities.

empathetic Fri 29-Aug-14 16:34:14

statistics it's the other way round: it's only the Blair Labour govt that would have held power were it not for the Scots. I WOULD say it about other constituencies if they had THEIR OWN PARLIAMENTs and yet still kept seats in ours! IMO either all of the countries in the Union (Scotland, England and Wales, and NI) should have their own parliaments with an extra one for Union matters, or NONE of them should have their own chambers. It just seems not fair leaving out the English and this unfairness would largely disappear if Scotland went completely its own way.

Can you link your source info please, because that doesn't match the info I have seen in various places.

isshoes Fri 29-Aug-14 16:53:22

Just to pick up on your point SelfconfessedSpoon - I appreciate your situation is frustrating but I don't think it's necessarily unfair. Universities interpret the rules differently, but my understanding of the basic rule of thumb is that if the parents have not been paying into the UK tax system for several years, their children don't are not eligible for subsidised fees. As for international students, they would have been having to live in the UK with their family, and their family would have to have been paying UK tax. That seems quite logical to me. There are other caveats but the above is the general rule I believe.

isshoes Fri 29-Aug-14 16:54:14

Excuse my poorly written post please hmm

empathetic Fri 29-Aug-14 19:46:32

He he statisticallyChallenged... are you challenging my statistics? wink

It is true that landslide victories would have been unaltered (with reduced majorities if Labour, and increased majorities if Tory) and that all Tory wins would remain as they were. It is narrow Labour wins that would have been different.

So mainly it is the current government, together with the Wilson governments of the 60's and 70's , def the minority callaghan govt of 76 and the Labour victory in 1950 that would have been affected.

Frequency is not really the point though - ONCE is too often and it applies right now. I want a democracy where the people who will be ruled are the only ones to vote and to have representatives in the parliament in question.

But, the parliament governs Scotland too at the moment. Why should we not have a voice too?

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