In thinking Mother and Baby car parking spots....

(402 Posts)
Writerwannabe83 Mon 28-Jul-14 12:52:49

....are actually for parents with babies/toddlers?

It was always my understanding that the wide spaces are for parents who have car seats and pushchairs to contend with, not for parents of 10 year olds who just want to park nearer to the shop, like a family that I saw today?!

I'm only moaning because I've just twisted and scraped my back trying to remove my car seat from my half closed back door door, in a very tight parking space whilst trying not to scratch the car I'm parked next to.

I was secretly fuming at those in the Mother and Baby spaces who surely shouldn't have been there, like the one I mentioned above.

And breathe smile

fledermaus Mon 28-Jul-14 12:54:11

This is a totally new complaint I have never seen on MN before grin

ICanSeeTheSun Mon 28-Jul-14 12:55:30

let's play Bingo.

i will dab the 10 year old may have a hidden disability

MaidOfStars Mon 28-Jul-14 12:55:48

Maybe those parents want to ensure that their ten year old doesn't wang the door open into a closely-parked car?

lornemalvo Mon 28-Jul-14 13:00:21

Yabu. I have 3 DC under 4 and have never ever used a parent and baby space. They are not necessary. Find a space. Park in it. Go to shop.
Big cars are the reason normal spaces feel too small for people.

jacks365 Mon 28-Jul-14 13:01:31

If your child is small enough to be carried in a car seat then I recommend parking as far away as you can it invariably gives you more space. My favourite car park has parent and child spaces which are marked out by coloured paving blocks, the spaces are very generous and it's common to see cars park in the gaps designed for easy access.

Hmm, I wonder how this will go in the new friendlier AIBU? ;)

ImaMonet Mon 28-Jul-14 13:03:16

Ooo I bet 'entitled' crops up somewhere.

RonaldMcDonald Mon 28-Jul-14 13:03:44

I do that. I park there when I don't even have the kids in the car just the boosers
I think P&C spaces are fair game for all

MagpieMama Mon 28-Jul-14 13:03:54

I don't think YABU but this won't end well. P&C parking threads on MN never end well. I've never seen so much hatred for those spaces as I've seen on this forum.

Missunreasonable Mon 28-Jul-14 13:05:33

At asda the parent and child parking spaces state that they are for children under the age of 12 and in a car or booster seat. So at Asda a small 10 year old in a booster seat would qualify as the parent and child space being suitable.

FloozeyLoozey Mon 28-Jul-14 13:06:31

They're not mother and baby they're parent and child, thus they're intended for anyone with a child.

CinnamonSwirl31 Mon 28-Jul-14 13:06:36

I don't blame you, I got The Rage at a single man in a huge 4x4 with no children or even car seat who took the last mother and baby space. I even beeped really loudly at him, much to the total embarrassment of my dp who was driving at the time. I think they are necessary, I've hurt my back loads of times trying to squeeze the car seat in and out!! to be fair not a great example as I made dp get the seat out on that occasion

ProtegeMoi Mon 28-Jul-14 13:07:08

Another who is amazed this had happened. I've NEVER seen complaints about parent parking on mumsnet before!

Toadsrevisited Mon 28-Jul-14 13:08:03

I know what you're saying, but the Mother bit pisses me off. I hope it said Parent. <misses point of thread but wants a rant. Apologises.>

I'm not being difficult or the sake of it, just fed up at the assumption that so many places make that women/ mums do everything child related. DH has just spent two week looking after 5 month old DS when I had to go to work, and was incredulous at how many places only have baby changing facilities in the ladies loo.

slightlyconfused85 Mon 28-Jul-14 13:08:05

I know it's an unpopular view on mumsnet but I actually agree with you. It's really hard getting a baby or toddler in and out of a car seat in a tiny space, all the while trying not to scratch the car that has parked a couple of centimetres too close to you. I think P&C spaces are necessary and it's irritating when they are misused. Therefore YANBU!

TheFairyCaravan Mon 28-Jul-14 13:08:36

Marks place.

WanderingTrolley1 Mon 28-Jul-14 13:09:08

How do you know they were 10, Writer?

We're they in situ before you arrived?

ICanSeeTheSun Mon 28-Jul-14 13:10:44

why do people take the car seat out to go shopping unless it one of these

www.pramcentre.co.uk/tn_images/x348y295/2011-09-27_out%20and%20about/PROMEADE/promenade-with-car-seat.jpg

2 Dc and once the seat was fitted, then never really got taken out.

TheFairyCaravan Mon 28-Jul-14 13:11:15

They aren't necessary. Generations of parents managed without them. They are a nice perk if you can get one. They should be at the back of the car park imo, that would stop people who shouldn't use them doing so.

hercules1 Mon 28-Jul-14 13:11:36

Surely you just park a little further away so can get a free space next to you in order to get car seat out.

EarthWindFire Mon 28-Jul-14 13:11:57

How do you know they were 10, Writer?

^this!!

MegMogandOwlToo Mon 28-Jul-14 13:12:32

I just see then as a convenience - if there is one free, I might use it. If they are full, so what? I don't care who is actually using it.

I can't believe a poster beeped at someone for using one, that is very rude.

Also I once saw a motorbike parked in one, that did make me laugh, imagining how pissed off it would make the parking police!

curiousgeorgie Mon 28-Jul-14 13:12:41

You are 100% correct and very reasonable... However, this is mumsnet and this is akin to saying something 'disablist' or worse so brace yourself OP!

CinnamonSwirl31 Mon 28-Jul-14 13:12:53

Why does everyone hate them so much? In the tesco I go to, they're not even close to the door or sheltered from the rain. Just bigger!!!

fledermaus Mon 28-Jul-14 13:12:56

ICan - because it's easier to put the car seat on the trolley than to carry the baby.

Idontseeanyicegiants Mon 28-Jul-14 13:13:38

Parking as far away as possible never works. We used to park over the opposite side of the car park, no cars anywhere near and come back to find cars parked as close as possible either side of us angry
Despite having hundreds of other car parking spots to choose from!
Every. Bloody. Time.

slightlyconfused85 Mon 28-Jul-14 13:14:14

hercules that doesn't mean that free space will not have someone in it by the time you return from your shopping. This someone will probably also have parked extra close to the car seat side...

ziggiestardust Mon 28-Jul-14 13:14:25

YANBU. I agree. They're provided for people with small children. If you take up one, and you don't have a genuine need, then you're being unreasonable and lazy. Parenting is being catered for more than it used to be; it's easier now to be a parent than it used to be, because places are making things more convenient.

I find the people who get arsey about these subjects are bitter because they didn't have these conveniences when they had children, and seem to begrudge those conveniences to others. Odd.

ICanSeeTheSun Mon 28-Jul-14 13:15:40
CharlieSierra Mon 28-Jul-14 13:16:10

Maybe those parents want to ensure that their ten year old doesn't wang the door open into a closely-parked car?

maybe at 10 a child could wait until the parent comes round and opens the door for them? Or be aware that there are consequences to 'wanging open' the car door next to someone else?

YANBU OP - babies and toddlers in car seats maybe need extra width, they don't need to be nearer the shop. Older children don't need extra space, they need to do as they are told in a busy car park. What really pissed me off lately was noticing that my local Sainsbury's has now created disabled/parent child spaces. Since when has having a child along equated to a disability?

fledermaus Mon 28-Jul-14 13:16:51

I'd much rather keep a little baby in their comfy car seat than lay them on a grubby plastic trolley seat given the option.

FraidyCat Mon 28-Jul-14 13:17:05

I think P&C spaces are fair game for all

There's always multiple posters on these threads pointing out that the space are just a courtesy (as if that justifies people who don't qualify for them using then.)

At my Asda on Saturday, I noticed that the sign said that a £70 PCN notice will be issued to anyone not entitled to use them. i.e. exactly the same sort of fine as you would get for (say) driving in a bus lane. So it's not always true that they are just a courtesy.

(It's not that the sign is new, I've just not really noticed, as I seldom use the P&C spaces, as one has to cross several extra speed humps in the car park to get to them. They are similar distance to the store entrance compared to other spaces, but further from car park entrance.)

ziggiestardust Mon 28-Jul-14 13:19:51

Good point fraidycat

SistersOfPercy Mon 28-Jul-14 13:19:52

At my Asda on Saturday, I noticed that the sign said that a £70 PCN notice will be issued to anyone not entitled to use them. i.e. exactly the same sort of fine as you would get for (say) driving in a bus lane. So it's not always true that they are just a courtesy.

Still unenforceable though, whereas your bus lane analogy would be enforceable.

TheFairyCaravan Mon 28-Jul-14 13:21:11

Charlie they've probably looked on MN where it is often said having a small child is like being disabled! shock hmm

MiaowTheCat Mon 28-Jul-14 13:22:35

Tesco's signs state in small print that it's for parents of children under 5... totally ignored, especially since the carpark also serves the local school so rather than park in the spaces near the school gate, they'd rather grab all the P+C spaces for their 11 year old just out of principle.

I wouldn't use the bloody spaces if Tesco would put some twin trollies around more bits of the carpark than just clustered next to the P+C bays - they're more bother than they're worth.

Patrickstarisabadbellend Mon 28-Jul-14 13:26:04

It's a parking spot. Who gives a crap.

LuluJakey1 Mon 28-Jul-14 13:31:52

I think they should be well away from the shop entrance so other users are put off using them. I have no objection to the spaces but do object to them being the closest to the shops. There should be more blue badge spaces closest to shops.

My mum had a wheelchair and a blue badge and we found there were often fewer disabled spaces than P and C. If we parked in a P and C because the disabled spaces were full, I could guarantee either remarks or filthy looks or horn tooting from mothers with children. One woman took my car number plate and told me she was reporting me. Another told me I had no right to use the. space and one adult in a wheelchair is much easier to manage than a baby and two toddlers!

I have honestly never come across the level of rudeness and entitlement I came across from mothers regarding P and C parking spaces.

I am pregnant and hope I will never behave that way to someone - especially someone with a blue badge, clearly struggling with a wheelchair and a disabled person.

sr123 Mon 28-Jul-14 13:32:38

I use them with my disabled 7 year old. I need the space more now than I did when he was a baby or toddler.

LyingWitchInTheWardrobe Mon 28-Jul-14 13:35:38

Just park further away, far, far away from everybody else. Great exercise too. P&C parking is a supermarket sop, it's not the same as disabled parking and there are no legal restrictions for it.

kinkytoes Mon 28-Jul-14 13:37:11

YANBU OP I agree with you! If your child needs help to get out of the car then you need the extra space more than a child who can get out under their own steam. I'd say up to age 6 or perhaps even younger.

A car with an older child with a disability could surely use a disabled parking spot which also offers more space.

Ronmione Mon 28-Jul-14 13:38:36

They aren't necessary. Generations of parents managed without them. that's true but cars are so much bigger these days and are just getting wider with every new model.

My heart sinks when I see a 4x4 has parked next to mine and I know I need to be double jointed to get in the car without touching theirs

FraidyCat Mon 28-Jul-14 13:39:00

Still unenforceable though, whereas your bus lane analogy would be enforceable.

Can you explain this? Do local authorities really issue unenforceable fines?

unlucky83 Mon 28-Jul-14 13:40:59

They aren't essential but they are convenient...
I use them if there are plenty free with a 7 and 13 yo! Asda is definitely up to 12. And it isn't cos it is closer etc but because there is more space so less chance of the DCs slamming the car door open into the car next to you...
I agree completely with the thoughtless people parking right next to you in an empty area of car park ...I think some people don't like their car to get lonely or something...lost track of the number of times that has happened to me...
(also one occasion -standard parking - there was me, empty space, car, 3 empty spaces - a car decided to pull into the empty space next to me and sat there blocking the roadway waiting whilst I struggled to get DD2 with twisted straps fastened in!!! -Why????)

But if there was only one free I would tend to leave for younger children...know its harder with young dcs (especially more than one) and a trolley in an open car park - the reason most of them are under a covered walk way cos you have to faff around getting your DC out of the trolley and unloading your shopping in the pouring rain - takes much longer ... also less chance of a DC running off behind a reversing car whilst you make your way across a car park...much safer
However I drove past the only free P&C space recently, parked further away as I walked past saw that it had been taken - by a woman in her 20s in a sports car - no DCs, no car seats I was angry hmm.

ICanSeeTheSun Mon 28-Jul-14 13:41:14

kinkytoes, it is difficult to get a blue badge for a child and you need a blue badge to park in a disabled bay.

MaryWestmacott Mon 28-Jul-14 13:46:43

Generations of parents didn't have cars (it's really only this generation of parents where the majority have a car in the day, it was common when I was growing up in the 80s to have one family car that dad took to work, we were unusual having 2 but we were also unsual that my mum worked in a professional full time job), and they certainly didn't have carseats to get DCs in and out of. (I had to politely explain to my MIL that the lovely moses basket she bought me wouldn't be going on the back seat to put the baby in while I drove, and yes, I could see you could put the seat belts through it, but I'd still get in trouble with the police if I didn't buy a car seat....)

I was about 7 when my parents put seat belts in the back of the car, I think it was a couple of years before the legislation came in that you had to and we were really unusal to have them, let along a booster seat!

JammyGeorge Mon 28-Jul-14 13:48:17

Yanbu.

Tesco near me is very busy, the p&c were full up so I parked in a normal space and put up the pushchair behind the car, turned to squeeze ds2 out of his seat turned back round and someone had reversed and hit the pushchair!!!

People think I'm crazy but I've never ever parked in a disabled space or a p&c (unless I've had a small child with me). I wouldn't dream of doing it because I'm not an inconsiderate arse.

chopinbabe Mon 28-Jul-14 13:49:05

I think fines can't be enforced but it is worth asking to speak to the manager of the shop, especially if you can identify the culprit, so that he can have a stern word with the offender.

fledermaus Mon 28-Jul-14 13:49:47

Fraidy - local authorities don't issue fines on private car parks.

NeedsAsockamnesty Mon 28-Jul-14 13:55:02

kinkytoes, it is difficult to get a blue badge for a child and you need a blue badge to park in a disabled bay

If you have higher rate mobility then most LA's issue the bb automatically to an adult or child.

And in a private car park the disabled bays and p&c bays have exactly the same enforcement issues. It's why idiots get away with misusing the disabled bays

lozster Mon 28-Jul-14 13:56:46

YANBU. In an ideal world everyone would defer to the next person who has a greater need. It's pretty obvious to me that disabled trumps all and babies trump mobile children.

I do the park as far away as possible thing but int local sainsburys the car is full all round as its right in town. My emergency plan is always to grab a stranger, ask them to watch the pram and reverse out to clear the doors before putting baba in. Not ideal. And I drive a 4 door modest family car not some huge tank.

sr123 Mon 28-Jul-14 13:57:17

Kinkytoes my ds doesn't have a blue badge. This is despite having the understanding of a 1 year old, motor skills of a 2 year old and using a wheelchair.

whatsthatcomingoverthehill Mon 28-Jul-14 14:02:19

I feel the need to make a generic response to these threads...

As NeedsAsockamnesty says, enforcement is the same for P&C and disabled bays on private property. It is a civil matter. The logic is that by parking you agree to the terms and conditions (e.g. only parking in disabled with a blue badge, or P&C with kids under 10 etc), but if you don't want to agree to those terms you pay an appropriate charge. If you do get a charge you can choose to ignore it, but they can be enforced. It's fairly unlikely that they will bother to proceed that far but you could see yourself in small claims court. Certain companies (notably parking eye) are doing this more and more.

chopinbabe Mon 28-Jul-14 14:02:50

Yes, disabled people should be able to use P and C spaces and thoughtfulness for all is the way to go.

However, in some cases, disabled adults can circle the car park and wait for a spot to become free but young children are prone to melt downs if they have to wait, especially if they have a special need and, as in recent days, it is hot and sticky. Little ones don't always understand why we have to wait in an uncomfortable car.

Maybe there could just be specially designated spots labelled 'for those with extra needs' rather than trying to create a hierarchy of what those need s are. It can be so divisive.

LittleBearPad Mon 28-Jul-14 14:03:14

Handy if their free. Not necessary though.

Park further away and if you can on the end of a row. Problem solved.

ICanSeeTheSun Mon 28-Jul-14 14:05:24

How do I apply for my child?

Generally children under the age of two are not eligible for a blue badge. Children over two may qualify for a blue badge if they have severe mobility problems. Certain children under the age of three may be eligible if they have a disability due to a medical condition and need to travel with bulky equipment or be close to a vehicle for emergency medical treatment.

EarthWindFire Mon 28-Jul-14 14:05:50

Kinkytoes my ds doesn't have a blue badge. This is despite having the understanding of a 1 year old, motor skills of a 2 year old and using a wheelchair.

If they are on higher rate mobility then you just send a copy of the notice with the councils form to your council to get it ussued.

TheWiseOldElf Mon 28-Jul-14 14:08:13

YANBU! I can't understand the attitude of some on mn towards this issue! Yes they're provided as a courtesy but it is totally inappropriate for people to misuse them! Also fines ARE enforceable. If you choose to park on someone's property in bread of their rules for doing so they are entitled to levy a reasonable fine for this.

TheWiseOldElf Mon 28-Jul-14 14:09:40

Breach not bread. Grrrrrr to my fat fingers!

sr123 Mon 28-Jul-14 14:13:49

He doesnn't get hrm because he can walk short distances and his behaviour wasn't challenging enough.

Fairywhitebear Mon 28-Jul-14 14:15:19

They should put them further away from the doors. This would stop tossers who don't have babies/toddlers parking in them!

YANBU. Some stupid woman did this to me this morning. Took the last space, merrily left with her 14 ish yr old daughter. Leaving me with a newborn and a toddler waiting for a free space to emerge. (this was in a shopping centre where there's loads of p&c spaces, but the actual car park is always hard to get a space...not in Tesco for eg where I would happily have parked elsewhere!)

I tell you something else though. I never knew disabled badge holders could park on double yellow lines?! I helpfully warned this old couple this morning that a parking warden was out and about, and she practically snapped at me that she was allowed to.

Now. What's that all about! So the double yellow lines, to ensure the bike lanes are free, don't apply to the disabled! Now, there's a debate wink

LastTango Mon 28-Jul-14 14:17:47

Oh diddums - OP's done a runner !

soverylucky Mon 28-Jul-14 14:17:58

At our local sainsburys you are allowed to use them if your dc is under 12.

SistersOfPercy Mon 28-Jul-14 14:19:17

Fraidy your bus lane fine would come from the council and be 100% above board and legal (for the most part, though you can appeal). Asda et all employ private parking firms such as APCOA and the 'fine' which is actually an 'invoice' not a fine is issued by them.

Council fines you have to pay. Private parking 'invoices' you ignore.

sr123 Mon 28-Jul-14 14:20:25

Can't get him round a supermarket though or in fact anywhere apart from the direction he wants to go in. I think those with asd and severe learning difficulties should be entitled to a blue badge but they are not.

Missunreasonable Mon 28-Jul-14 14:27:21

Sr123. My DS has a blue badge and he has ASD and learning difficulties. He also get high rate mobility but he does exhibit very challenging behaviours. If your DS will not go where you need to without a fight and if he has no sense of danger then he might be entitled to high rate mobility and a blue badge.
I couldn't cope without the car that we pay for with mobility allowance as there is no way I can get a bus with my DS. Even going out in the car is almost impossible some days.

bigdog888 Mon 28-Jul-14 14:27:49

I think fines can't be enforced but it is worth asking to speak to the manager of the shop, especially if you can identify the culprit, so that he can have a stern word with the offender

That made me chuckle. I'm afraid I'd call the manager a cunt and tell him to fuck off and die. A stern word indeed. Lol.

mumtoateen Mon 28-Jul-14 14:28:43

YABU. Legally a child is under 18 years of age. So anyone with an under 18 yo can park there. hmm

FraidyCat Mon 28-Jul-14 14:30:19

Fraidy - local authorities don't issue fines on private car parks.

How do you know my local "Asda car park" is private? smile

It certainly looks like part and parcel of the supermarket, in the same was as any other supermarket car park, but I now think I remember small-print on the pay-and-display machines saying that parking is enforced by the local authority. If that implies Asda doesn't own the car park, so be it.

Teddybeau1988 Mon 28-Jul-14 14:31:47

I don't use P&C spaces if I'm with my older DC ( 5 & 8), only when DS is with me, his 4 months. On those occasions others need them more.

I parked in those spaces when I was heavily pregnant and had no DC with me. I was absolutely huge and on several occasions I had to ask a passer by to drive my car forward as I literally could not fit in the gap left by the next car. I still felt guilty for misusing them

fledermaus Mon 28-Jul-14 14:31:51

OK, well if it's a public carpark then the rules are different.

BlinkAndMiss Mon 28-Jul-14 14:39:41

Well, I've never understood why P&C spaces are such a 'thing' on here, they are there for parents who have small children to get out of the car. I'm not sure why people are entitled or selfish or lazy for wanting them to be used for that purpose. I think if they put them at the bottom of the car park then they would be more effective. For me, it's not being close to the shop that's important, those spaces should be for people who struggle to walk, it's having the room to open the car door wide enough to get my children out. In normal spaces I can't open the door wide enough to not bang heads or the car next to me. I'd hate it if someone belted my car, I'm not sure why people on here are against having a space which helps people to avoid doing just that.

It really angers me when people without children park in those spaces, they are the ones being selfish and entitled not the parents who are requiring that space. It also annoys me when people park there with older children and people who then sit in the car with the child whilst the passenger goes into the shop.

It's more about common courtesy - allowing those who need it a bit of an easier time. When people ignore this it just adds to the hostility that already exists in most public spaces.

Mybigfatredwedding Mon 28-Jul-14 14:41:12

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

bigdog888 Mon 28-Jul-14 14:47:14

That, quite frankly, makes you a wanker

I can live with that thanks

ChangelingToday Mon 28-Jul-14 14:55:22

'If you park in a P&C space when you don't need to, meaning someone with kids can't, then you have deliberately made someone else's day just that little bit more tricky. Not impossible, but a little bit more difficult. Totally unnecessarily.'

I agree, it's awful with a small baby parking so far away, trying to get them in when it's pouring rain. I also know someone who was getting the baby out, put her car seat on the chassis and when in the few seconds it took to turn round and close the door and lock the car someone had backed their car into the baby's pram and driven off. When I don't have the kids with me I park as far away as possible, hate that fight for a space lark. Annoys me when I see able bodied people parking in disabled and PC spaces.

3littlefrogs Mon 28-Jul-14 14:57:53

At my local leisure centre all the P&C places and the "drop off" spaces are taken up by young men who cannot possibly walk more than 5 yards to the gym. confused

TheFairyCaravan Mon 28-Jul-14 14:59:45

Mybigfatredwedding that was totally un-necessary. Its okay to have an opinion but not okay to be so rude!

"I tell you something else though. I never knew disabled badge holders could park on double yellow lines?! I helpfully warned this old couple this morning that a parking warden was out and about, and she practically snapped at me that she was allowed to.
What's that all about! So the double yellow lines, to ensure the bike lanes are free, don't apply to the disabled! Now, there's a debate"

No debate needed Fairy, the legistaltion is quite clear here

chopinbabe Mon 28-Jul-14 15:03:57

Big Dog

Why would you respond with such a vicious mouth if the manager had a word with you about inconsiderate behaviour

Quite frankly, I would hope that he would call the police and have you taken away before you could pollute the atmosphere any further.

londonrach Mon 28-Jul-14 15:09:38

Tbh sister when children were babies parked as far as she could away from the door of the shop as it meant she had more room. In theory you correct but I don't see the need for any special parking spaces for parents. We managed in the 1970s and 1980s.

stagsden Mon 28-Jul-14 15:09:56

fraidycat my local asda has a charged for carpark owned by the council (they own all the big carparks in the town centre and a few of the little ones). They are very hot on giving out fines (even saw them fine someone with a blue badge because it was a single day out of date - poor person was crying, she hadnt realised and her husband obviously very disabled). They also fine you for being a minute over you ticket time and if you forget to get a ticket during the free time.

However they do not, ever fine for missuse of p&c spaces as its too difficult to enforce/prove.

Anyway p&c spaces are a nice but not actually necessary. It also doesnt help stop people using them by having them further from the door - both my local morrisons and asda have them right round the side/back of building, making them some of the furthest away spaces - still get abused. Sainsburys have some extra wide spaces at the back of their carpark which seems to help discourage people misusing the p&c spaces.

whatsthatcomingoverthehill Mon 28-Jul-14 15:10:21

"Council fines you have to pay. Private parking 'invoices' you ignore."

You can ignore, but you risk being taken to small claims. It does happen. Citizens advice.

Smilesandpiles Mon 28-Jul-14 15:10:23

For years I could never understand why my dad and my ex insisted on using the spaces furthest away from the shops. Now I know. It's to avoid all this bollocks.

Scousadelic Mon 28-Jul-14 15:12:08

My DCs are in their 20s so I am of the generation that managed without these and I have never held any strong opinions one way or the other on P&C spaces until recently.

I took out a friend who has MS, doesn't look "ill" but is wobbly, can't walk far and often will not go out because of the appalling behaviour she faces from others when using her blue badge. All the blue badge spaces were full so we parked in the end one of the P&C with the badge clearly visible only to be berated by an older woman because she, her daughter and her grandchild (who looked to be about 4) had had to park further away and walk all of about 50ft to the shopfront.

I asked her if she thought it was more difficult for 2 adults and a child to walk that distance or for a person with a disability to do it but she could not see past the fact that the spaces are labelled P&C. Some people are losing all common sense and decency because they think they have some sort of entitlement

bigdog888 Mon 28-Jul-14 15:12:48

Why would you respond with such a vicious mouth if the manager had a word with you about inconsiderate behaviour

Because I'd be quite happily minding my own business. How would you expect this manager to detain me until the police arrive? Such a heinous crime calling someone a cunt.

LittleBearPad Mon 28-Jul-14 15:16:46

An unnecessary one though BigDog. I've read your posts before and you do seem very aggressive, particularly in relation to anything to do with cars

Andrewofgg Mon 28-Jul-14 15:18:29

My DS uses P & C spaces after about 9 p.m. at 24-hour Tesco. Says young children should not be out by then. Not sure why he's wrong but sure that he is . . .

Owllady Mon 28-Jul-14 15:21:23

The signs specify they are for parents with children under 12

maddening Mon 28-Jul-14 15:21:38

Yanbu - but apparently the parents from the 70s and 80s who drove smaller cars at a time when there were far less cars around and the cars were smaller and supermarkets less frequent feel that no one should have anything vaguely useful as they didn't have it - while not vital they do make shopping with dc - particularly young dc with car seats to wrangle etc.

I don't know why disabled spaces get dragged in to these debates - the legalities, reasons for having the spaces etc are totally different.

As for the argument of the p&c don't need them - well nor do the selfish twats taking up the spaces - and far less than the p&c whom the owners of the car park have issued the spaces for.

stagsden Mon 28-Jul-14 15:22:49

scousa i really sympathise with your friend my brother has had nasty comments when using a blue badge. My other brother had a major go at someone for it once and dragged them to my disabled brothers adapted car (it has hand controls as he cannot feel peddles due to spinal damage), and made them look at the adaptations.

Owllady Mon 28-Jul-14 15:25:28

A car seat in the 70s and 80s? Are you having a laugh!
4 on the back, 2 in the boot and a child in the football. No seatbelts
Whilst mum was smoking in the passenger seat whilst dad was tanked up on gin

Owllady Mon 28-Jul-14 15:26:18

Footwell, not football smile

Smilesandpiles Mon 28-Jul-14 15:26:37

There weren't seatbelts in the back of most cars in the 70's and 80's never mind car seats.

Sirzy Mon 28-Jul-14 15:27:17

DS is 4, if p and c spaces are free I will use them for him. If they aren't free I park elsewhere.

As he gets older our need for them is actually increasing as he is finding it harder to walk distances without getting breathless.

Ideally spaces should be at the back of the shop, or just called "accessible spaces" for anyone who for whatever reason needs the space but doesn't have a blue badge. Yes some people will abuse them but if people are going to they will no matter what. Most people who use them have some sort of need for them.

zzzzz Mon 28-Jul-14 15:32:05

I park in the P&C all the time when with ds1 as he is nearly ten, but also has a neurological disability so roads are crazy dangerous for us. The powers that be don't think this warrants a blue badge. Mercifully everyone else seems to get it and leave us to it.
When he was in a pushchair I parked as far as possible from the door to try and lose some pg fat......didn't work, but probably gave me a tad more fresh air!

TheFairyCaravan Mon 28-Jul-14 15:36:35

I first became a parent in 1994, DSS was born in 1990, my DN was born in 1992. We drove a huge Peugeot 405 estate, the babies were in car seats and P&C spaces didn't exist until DS1 was born then there were about 4 per our massive Tescos.

We did manage. I don't care that P&C spaces exist now, I appreciate that they are a useful perk. That said, I believe too many parents think they cannot manage without them and that the sky will fall in if they are not there. It won't. You can manage and go about your day if you are parked in one or not.

ExitPursuedByAKoalaBear Mon 28-Jul-14 15:37:04

Well the new AIBU guidelines seem to be working.

ExitPursuedByAKoalaBear Mon 28-Jul-14 15:37:40

Dull though.

2old2beamum Mon 28-Jul-14 15:37:52

owllady grin you must be around my age, didn't even have a car with 3 under 4 (sorry off post!)

maddening Mon 28-Jul-14 15:39:22

Exactly owllady - and You can't fit 3 car seats in a small car !

Owllady Mon 28-Jul-14 15:41:48

I'm in my late 30s
My mum has photos of us in the carrycot in the back of the car, otherwise a babby was carried on your lap

I don't think people realise how much road/car safety has come on

maddening Mon 28-Jul-14 15:43:21

No the fairy - I don't think anyone thinks they can't manage without p&c parking but it doesn't mean that it isn't twatish to take the space with no dc or blue badge

Deverethemuzzler Mon 28-Jul-14 15:44:02

I don't know why I am allowing myself to be sucked into this...

What we need, we all need, is for car park companies to stop making spaces so bloody small.

It is a pain to try and get a baby and associated equipment out of car when you are only inches from two others.

But I detest P&C parking spaces because of the learned helplessness they seem to have produced in some people.

If they got rid of them they would be forced to make the other spaces wider because their would be an expectation that you should be able to get a child out of a normal sized space. As it stands people just whinge that they can't go shopping because all of the usable spaces have been taken.

Imagine a world in which P&C spaces were removed. If you couldn't get out of you car to shop you wouldn't bloody go would you?

Actually, it might be good to have a world like that for a little while. Just to give the whingers a taste of what its like not to be able to find a blue badge space and to have to go home.

I have used P&C spaces when they have been available. They are the most helpful when you have a newborn IMO. I cannot understand the people who block up the car park waiting for one to be vacated. They are not that bloody good.

Blue badge spaces are totally different. If you think its hard getting a baby and a buggy out of a normal space, you try getting a mobility scooter out of one or a non weight bearing child with a power chair.

Most people on this thread are considerate which leads me to think that the majority of people are reasonable about P&C places.
It's difficult to know other people's circumstances. You might have judged when DH nabbed the last P&C space at the supermarket yesterday and our 6 & 10 year olds got out. What you wouldn't know is that I had had surgery less than a week ago and so I needed the extra space to get out of the car. I'd decided to come along because I was going stir crazy stuck in the house.

TheFairyCaravan Mon 28-Jul-14 15:49:09

Totally agree with Devere .

PleaseJustShootMeNow Mon 28-Jul-14 15:49:35

Yes, disabled people should be able to use P and C spaces and thoughtfulness for all is the way to go.

However, in some cases, disabled adults can circle the car park and wait for a spot to become free but young children are prone to melt downs if they have to wait, especially if they have a special need and, as in recent days, it is hot and sticky. Little ones don't always understand why we have to wait in an uncomfortable car.

Maybe there could just be specially designated spots labelled 'for those with extra needs' rather than trying to create a hierarchy of what those need s are. It can be so divisive.

This is a joke right? Please tell me you're having a laugh and don't really think this. Because if you're serious I'm lost for words because it's fucked up beyond belief.

Notso Mon 28-Jul-14 15:56:05

What we need, we all need, is for car park companies to stop making spaces so bloody small.

Exactly.

JadedAngel Mon 28-Jul-14 16:01:18

If I go to the supermarket with my 5yr old, we don't use the P&C spaces. She is perfectly capable of walking alongside me across the car park. The spaces are limited. I'd rather leave them for parents with babies and toddlers.

If I go to the supermarket with my disabled 3yr old however, it's a fecking nightmare. All the blue badge spaces, and I mean all of them, are occupied because our Waitrose has a lovely cafe the elderly folk in the area like to frequent.

And the P&C spaces are often full of parents with older, walking kids...

ApocalypseNowt Mon 28-Jul-14 16:20:34

I don't see anyone wailing that the sky will fall in if they don't have p&c spaces. I see (most) people saying they are a nice perk, make life easier and you shouldn't use them if you don't need them. That seems perfectly reasonable to me.

I have noticed some people saying they should be at the back of the car park though so they wouldn't be so attractive to lazy bellends....I do disagree with this. I think they should be close to the shop. Even the best behaved toddler can have their moment and even the most vigilant parent can grab and miss one doing a bolt. Why not have them closer so little ones don't run the risk of getting knocked by a car? If it saves only a few from being injured or worse then it's worth it imho.

BornOfFrustration Mon 28-Jul-14 16:30:03

I think they're great and I use them if I can get one, they're loads bigger so my fat arse has more room for sticking out of the car while I'm toddler wrestling.

Sirzy Mon 28-Jul-14 16:31:24

So Apolcalypse - how do people cope with these runaway toddlers in the vast majority of spaces which don't have P and C spaces or just walking along a roadside with their parents?

Surely if anything giving the idea that children need to be parked near the shop for their own safety encorages the laziness and the lack of teaching road safety?

ApocalypseNowt Mon 28-Jul-14 16:36:51

I disagree Sirzy, I don't think it does encourage laziness - you're talking about the difference between a 20 yard walk or a 60 yard walk. It's hardly going to solve the obesity crisis making toddlers walk a little bit further.

As to your first point of course people cope but if there's a quick fix that makes thing safer and easier why not do it?

Also walking along a roadside is slightly different. In car parks you have people manouvering and reversing. Children of toddler height are hard to see and might know to wait at a kerbside/not run into the road but wouldn't necessarily clock someone's reverse lights.

Sirzy Mon 28-Jul-14 16:38:44

Then the parents should be watching them, use reins/backpacks if needed.

Still not an argument to say that parents need to park near the shop. They don't need to. It's convenient as it is for many others but it's not a need.

ApocalypseNowt Mon 28-Jul-14 16:40:36

I never said it was a need. I said it's a convenience and it makes it safer. Which it does.

Sirzy Mon 28-Jul-14 16:44:09

Sorry I still disagree with you, the spaces would be much better at the back if we really do need special spaces for people who have children.

People cope walking across car parks every day with and without children, the fact some parents struggle to keep their children next to them really isn't an argument to keep the spaces near the shop.

If we need anything by the shop it should be more "accessible" spaces for people who really do have a need for that space whatever it is. Or just nice wide spaces throughout the whole car park.

TheFairyCaravan Mon 28-Jul-14 16:47:11

Parents cope day in and day out in many, many car parks where there are no P&C spaces. They just do it, this debate never ever arises. It is only in supermarkets and shopping centres where they all of a sudden become unable to get their child out of a car and across a car park!

ApocalypseNowt Mon 28-Jul-14 16:58:43

Then we'll have to agree to disagree Sirzy.

I'm just for making life easier where you can! smile

TSSDNCOP Mon 28-Jul-14 16:59:28

When we arrive on very rare occasions and I have DS in the car, if I see a P&C I think "bonus!". If there's not one we walk. When he was a newborn I started using Ocado because the thought of going shopping was beyond nonsense.

WanderingTrolley1 Mon 28-Jul-14 17:03:39

How's your back, Writer?

Jayne35 Mon 28-Jul-14 17:06:34

I cannot understand the people who block up the car park waiting for one to be vacated. They are not that bloody good. I really hate space waiters, especially in narrow car parks.

What we need, we all need, is for car park companies to stop making spaces so bloody small. So true.

OP I think YABU a 10 year old is still a child so if parents of older children want to use the space they are entitled to. Like others have said park further away on an end space (the sooner they move the spaces the better as no one without children will want to park in them if they have to walk to far).

I never try to park close in any car park, too much hassle driving round looking for a space.

MiaowTheCat Mon 28-Jul-14 17:16:12

If I'm on my own I'll wait out one coming free (park up at the back of the carpark and watch) - but it's only because they keep the two toddler trollies that they don't have lots of only in the spot near there - and I'm never quite comfortable with leaving the kids in the car to go a longer distance to retrieve a trolley they can both go in... for fear of coming across a trigger happy ringer of social services resident of AIBU or something similar. If I've got someone with me who can watch the kids while I go get a trolley - not an issue.

Andrewofgg Mon 28-Jul-14 17:19:47

Most people on this thread are considerate which leads me to think that the majority of people are reasonable about P&C places.

If you think the population at large are as decent and considerate as the population of MN - can I offer you some shares in my Atlantic Tunnel Company?

TokenGirl1 Mon 28-Jul-14 17:25:51

I don't get this whole 'park further away so no one parks next to you'. Every time I try that, someone always parks next to me despite there being dozens of other empty spaces around. Drives me mad!

GoblinLittleOwl Mon 28-Jul-14 17:38:30

I don't remember suffering from a bad back or twisted spine because of lifting pushchairs out of cramped spaces when my children were small, but that was probably because we travelled by bus.
Now in my sixties, I parked in a parent/ child space in Sainsbury's carpark after driving round three times days before Christmas; there were no other spaces available. After checking this was allowed, I returned to my car and had to call the security guard because of the abusive and threatening behaviour of two parents, with child in pushchair.
Having young children with pushchairs does not constitute a disability.

3littlefrogs Mon 28-Jul-14 17:39:58

In USA where I lived and worked over 30 years ago, all car parks were herringbone design. Easy to park, easy to leave, easy to see around you, no need for any designated spaces.

Why on earth we can't do this over here I have no idea.

Deverethemuzzler Mon 28-Jul-14 17:41:37

Car parks are dangerous places if you are not careful. There is no denying that.

But if you park next to a trolley park that issue is solved by putting the little kids straight into the trolley and pushing them to the shop.

If the kids are too big to go in a trolley (my 6 year old fits in a trolley and he isn't a tiny one) you have to drum into them that they have to look out for cars because cars won't look out for them. Its a lesson worth learning.

People really can argue as much as they like and I DO get that P&C spaces are nice BUT they are absolutely not necessary. I think they have caused more trouble than they are worth.

I have seen posts from people on these threads stating that they just cannot manage without them. That is nuts.

It is difficult shopping with young children and others should appreciate that but I honestly think that P&C spaces make other shoppers less inclined to be helpful. They piss everyone off so much.

3littlefrogs Mon 28-Jul-14 17:43:34

There was no internet shopping when mine were small. I don't understand why people with babies and toddlers don't just do their supermarket shop on line. I would have loved to be able to avoid taking mine to any sort of shop when they were little.

oxfordmumma1 Mon 28-Jul-14 18:15:40

Agree they should be parent and toddler spaces. Tescos recognize this. Shame Asda do not.

Eminybob Mon 28-Jul-14 18:46:33

Yanbu. I totally agree. And people who use them that don't have a need to are selfish arses IMHO.

CallMeExhausted Mon 28-Jul-14 18:59:15

I don't get fussed about the spots, personally. They are intended as a courtesy and are unenforceable.

I park at the back of the lot because it is easier to load/unload my DD's wheelchair without worrying about additional vehicles either parked or driving too close.

Admittedly, it is a longer walk in, but so much less stress.

Writerwannabe83 Mon 28-Jul-14 19:26:46

I've been out all day and can't believe how many responses there are grin

I didn't realise it was a hot topic on MN, I was just venting!!

I haven't read all the thread yet so I'm going to go back and read all the posts now smile

Mumblepot26 Mon 28-Jul-14 19:47:27

Another one who thinks YANBU, I have a feeling most who think YABU had young kids before these parking spaces existed, and therefore just think we should all suffer like they did, or else they have never tried to twist and squeeze their young children and baby seats out of these impossibly tight spaces.

Deverethemuzzler Mon 28-Jul-14 19:52:47

No. You are wrong.
Read the thread. Lots of people have children now and don't think the spaces are necessary.

Sirzy Mon 28-Jul-14 19:55:43

DS is 4. I still think the spaces are nothing more than a marketing gimmick

Slarti Mon 28-Jul-14 19:56:00

Since when has having a child along equated to a disability?

Since when has a visual impairment equated to having no legs? Despite both being eligible for a blue badge, it doesn't, of course. Having spaces that are useful to people with children and people with varying but not equal disabilities isn't a statement of equivalence, it's simply a practical measure that accommodates an overlap in needs, namely more space!

Slarti Mon 28-Jul-14 19:58:45

And of course OP, it's 'parent' not 'mother', but it's hardly surprising you conflate the two here on Mumsnet (by parents for parents).

Deverethemuzzler Mon 28-Jul-14 20:01:24

Since when has a visual impairment equated to having no legs? Despite both being eligible for a blue badge, it doesn't, of course. Having spaces that are useful to people with children and people with varying but not equal disabilities isn't a statement of equivalence, it's simply a practical measure that accommodates an overlap in needs, namely more space!

No, no, no!

Blue badge spaces and the use of blue badges are about leveling the playing field for people with disabilities. Its not just about space. Proximity, ease of parking near amenities, priority parking for people who are unable to use our largely inaccessible public transport etc

If you have shared spaces they will all be taken by people who think they need more help than someone who is child free.
I don't know how you think your statement is not equating having children with having a disability. It clearly is.

Where are these supermarkets where if you park far enough away, you'll get a spot with space around you for your car seat and pushchair? Free spaces are rare enough in themselves where I live, never mind one with free spaces to the side of it too grin

I love P&C spaces grin I don't like knocking other people's cars when they've parked so bloody close I can hardly get in the space, never mind getting the baby out, so P&C spaces are great if they're free. I don't care if they're next to the door or a mile away!

Memphisbelly Mon 28-Jul-14 20:03:17

Our local carparks say spaces to be used by parents with child under 36 months.

MyFairyKing Mon 28-Jul-14 20:04:57

This is clearly goady. The OP has been on here forever and is an active poster, it's not like she doesn't know this topic is bunfight central.

Deverethemuzzler Mon 28-Jul-14 20:05:58

I have Sainsbury's x 2. Asda, Tesco and Morrison's within 3-20 min drive and its possible to park out of the way in all of them.

Christmas at Morrison's gets a bit lairy but I don't like it there anyway grin

We have a Sainsbry's, ASDA, Tesco, Morrisons, all 'superstore' type things and yet never any empty blocks angry I never queue for a parking space though. If one doesn't have spaces, we go to the next one along (except for Sainsbury's because I hate it but that's me grin ) and just drive between them until there's a spot.

I could live without P&C spaces but I don't want to unless they're willing to make other spaces bigger grin

Writerwannabe83 Mon 28-Jul-14 20:12:22

I'm not toady fairy - there hasn't been any nastiness on the thread at all, isn't that what goaders want?

Yes I am a regular but I've never commented on a car parking thread for parent and child so genuinely wasn't aware it was a topic that can get heated.

To those who commented, yes I did mean parent and child instead of mother and child - just bad wording on my part.

I guessed the boy was 10/11 as when I walked into the shop the family were standing at the entrance doors whilst the dad was on his mobile. The mom was talking to her son about buying him some shirts ready for him starting secondary school.

toomuchtooold Mon 28-Jul-14 20:12:24

My Tesco parent and baby club car disc says they're to be used till your kid's third birthday. Ha right.

I found them incredibly useful when my twins were little and I did resent when I'd drive up and see someone take the last space then get out with like, one, older kid, and I'd to go park miles away. Particularly aggravating when it was raining - if there's an easy solution to keeping two 8 month olds dry while keeping hold of the trolley, I never figured it out.

Oh well, I suppose hoping for dry babies is just a sign of my sense of entitlement... I'm a total shocker that way, I even take my children (two of them! In a buggy! Which doesn't really fold up!) on the bus sometimes, even when they might be about to kick off.

Pobblewhohasnotoes Mon 28-Jul-14 20:18:23

I like p&c spaces because they're big, nothing to do with where they are in the car park. And being 38 weeks pregnant, space to get out the car is important!

Writerwannabe83 Mon 28-Jul-14 20:21:02

Someone told me pebble that pregnant women are allowed to use the spaces but I thought they were winding me up. Is it true then??

Writerwannabe83 Mon 28-Jul-14 20:21:45

I mean Pobble, not pebble grin

CharlieSierra Mon 28-Jul-14 20:21:51

Slarti the fact that there will always be someone who would actually have the neck to argue that a fit parent of a 12 yr old should have equal dibs on a priority parking space with someone with disabilities is why these threads always turn into bunfights, what a trite argument you make.

Pobblewhohasnotoes Mon 28-Jul-14 20:22:01

No idea, I have a 2 year old as well which is why I use them.

maggiethemagpie Mon 28-Jul-14 20:22:27

Another one who doesn't care that much what age the kids are but gets REALLY pissed off when they are called 'mother' and baby spaces - does that mean dads aren't allowed to use them then?

freezation Mon 28-Jul-14 20:23:46

I really don't understand the whole 'we didn't have them in my day and we coped fine'. Well that's great but isn't it also great that we have moved on and these spaces have been created to help parents with young children? In my grandmother's day there were no microwaves but I don't think she begrudges me having one now. Anything that helps is surely a good thing. I certainly don't think they're a right, but then I don't think there are many things that are a right (holidays in term time, holidays, mobile phones, sky TV, I could go on...).

gamescompendium Mon 28-Jul-14 20:25:31

P&C spaces are necessary because the ordinary parking bays at supermarkets are so bloody tiny, if they made them the size carparking spaces use to be when I was young there wouldn't be an issue. I'm very vocal about pointing out to people if they use them when they shouldn't. I once gave a 50 something woman (with no children) a right old telling off as I carried my (at the time) two under twos. She apparently hadn't seen the sign (that was right in front of her car) hmm. People with older children tend to get a hard stare as I loudparent three small children across the carpark. Thankfully Sainsburys now have moved the P&C spaces to the back of the carpark so there is less of an issue than when they were right next to the disabled places.

gordyslovesheep Mon 28-Jul-14 20:30:42

Oh I love good old P+C bingo grin

honestly if you can't park in a normal space and manage you need more lessons grin

people who get so aggressive over parking spaces need to go and lie down in a dark room

Slarti Mon 28-Jul-14 20:31:09

^No, no, no!

Blue badge spaces and the use of blue badges are about leveling the playing field for people with disabilities. Its not just about space. Proximity, ease of parking near amenities, priority parking for people who are unable to use our largely inaccessible public transport etc

If you have shared spaces they will all be taken by people who think they need more help than someone who is child free.
I don't know how you think your statement is not equating having children with having a disability. It clearly is.^

P&C spaces and Disabled spaces both allow for more space, do they not? That demonstrates that both parents and disabled people find more space useful. That's a fact. I haven't said anything whatsoever that equates any other aspect of being disabled with any other aspect of being a parent.

Slarti Mon 28-Jul-14 20:34:37

Slarti the fact that there will always be someone who would actually have the neck to argue that a fit parent of a 12 yr old should have equal dibs on a priority parking space with someone with disabilities is why these threads always turn into bunfights, what a trite argument you make.

P&C spaces tend specifically to not be for 12 year olds, so isn't that argument moot? And if a supermarket found that parents and disable people having equal dibs on large spaces meant disabled people were losing out then that points to them not having provided enough large spaces!

Vintagejazz Mon 28-Jul-14 20:37:47

Just move them to the back of the carpark. Parents with babies get extra wide spaces; elderly and other deserving people have some chance of getting a space by the door; and whingey parents who can't understand why they have to walk across the carpark and actually keep an eye on their kids or shield them from the rain will just have to get on with it.

Deverethemuzzler Mon 28-Jul-14 20:37:53

No. More space is not just 'useful' if you have a WAV. Without the extra space you cannot get out of the vehicle.
If you have a child in a wheelchair you cannot physically get them out and into their chair if you do not have space. Not 'you have to twist and turn to wriggle the baby's car seat out'.
If you have a child or family member who has no concept of danger you need to get them from car to shop by the quickest route, not 'its hard to walk across a carpark with a baby'.
If you have a child who uses oxygen or suction you might have to turn around and go home if you can't get a wider space because you cannot get them them safely out of a half open door.

Do you see the difference now?

fluffyraggies Mon 28-Jul-14 20:38:11

I seriously don't get the ''I don't think they're necessary therefore i'll ignore the signs and park where i please'' people. Or the ''I didn't have them in my day therefore they shouldn't be provided now'' people.

Do all these folk feel entitled to march into any designated BF rooms they come across and sit in there, because they can? Or occupy parent and baby change areas, because it's a free country? Or because they didn't have them in their day, or because they don't ''see'' the necessity and therefore refuse to acknowledge the simple courtesy of these spaces.

I'm prepared to say that when i see an obviously able-bodied person using the P&C spaces without any kids with them i think ''wanker''.

I don't think there's any connection or contention with this issue and disabled bays. I would have no issue with a disabled person using the P&C spaces if the D ones are full.

Ilovemydogandmydoglovesme Mon 28-Jul-14 20:38:17

I love all this 'cars used to be smaller' stuff. My mum used to have a Volvo 240 estate when we were little. Bloody great tank of a car. Don't remember her having any problem parking it at the tiny car park next to the supermarket.

She had two or three 240's. When she traded her last one in for a new Volvo V70 estate I remember her being amazed that it had more side protection and leg room inside etc but was smaller than her old car. grin

I traded my VW Passat estate in last year for a Landrover Freelander. I've since been accused of driving a big car and I often point out that my new car is half a foot shorter than my old car.

gordyslovesheep Mon 28-Jul-14 20:41:11

you think wanker if you want ...maybe they have been dropping their kids off or picking them up?

I have done this on previous occasions - think what you like

these spaces aren't needed so it doesn't matter

Deverethemuzzler Mon 28-Jul-14 20:42:14

fluffy I don't use P&C spaces if I don't have a child with me (I rarely use them if I do). Your analogy doesn't make sense.
People without children need to park. They don't need to use a changing or feeding area.
If they did , e.g. if they were feeling panicked or unwell and they needed a quiet place to sit urgently, would you think they were being outrageous if they did pop in to sit down for a minute?

Sirzy Mon 28-Jul-14 20:42:18

I'm prepared to say that when i see an obviously able-bodied person using the P&C spaces without any kids with them i think ''wanker''.

How can you tell someone is "obviously able bodied" by looking at them?

DS looks "obviously able bodied" but on a bad day can only walk a very short distance before he is struggling for breath.

As he gets older it is becoming more of an issue, and me carrying him is becoming harder. So sorry if it pisses off people but I will use P and C spaces if I have no choice but to go out with him (phamacist in supermarket) because sod what anyone else things, it makes his suffering a bit less

Slarti Mon 28-Jul-14 20:45:29

No. More space is not just 'useful' if you have a WAV. Without the extra space you cannot get out of the vehicle.
If you have a child in a wheelchair you cannot physically get them out and into their chair if you do not have space. Not 'you have to twist and turn to wriggle the baby's car seat out'.
If you have a child or family member who has no concept of danger you need to get them from car to shop by the quickest route, not 'its hard to walk across a carpark with a baby'.
If you have a child who uses oxygen or suction you might have to turn around and go home if you can't get a wider space because you cannot get them them safely out of a half open door.
Do you see the difference now?

My entire point is that they aren't equivalent yet you're carrying on like I've said the opposite hmm

Vintagejazz Mon 28-Jul-14 20:45:56

If it's an elderly person do you also think 'wanker' Fluffy? My friend was berated by a fit looking woman with a toddler for using a P&T space. When she explained that her sister, who was with her, was recovering from major surgery and got a bit breathless when she had to walk far, the woman stated that she 'should use a disabled space then and not take up a P&T space'. Yes, "wanker" was one of the words that sprung to our minds.

fluffyraggies Mon 28-Jul-14 20:47:34

''if they were feeling panicked or unwell and they needed a quiet place to sit urgently, would you think they were being outrageous if they did pop in to sit down for a minute?''

No i wouldn't. They had a need. Personally if i saw someone panicked or unwell i would try and help. If we were near a BF room i'd help them in there.

Sirzy i take it your DS is a child? Therefore you've got a child with you. (under 18?) So i wouldn't think 'wanker'.

Gordy - we have to agree to differ on this because i can see a need. So i'm afraid i'm sticking with wanker. But as you don't care then it's ok grin

windchime Mon 28-Jul-14 20:49:12

My youngest DC is 8 and I will continue to use those spaces until she enters the sixth form is old enough to refuse to come shopping with me.

fluffyraggies Mon 28-Jul-14 20:49:36

If it's an elderly person i don't think wanker either. I can see they might need the space to get the door open.

Deverethemuzzler Mon 28-Jul-14 20:49:45

So what are you saying Slarti because your posts seem very much as if you think they are.

P&C spaces and Disabled spaces both allow for more space, do they not? That demonstrates that both parents and disabled people find more space useful


You are clearly putting parents and those who need BB spaces on a par with your statement that both groups find a bit of extra space 'useful'

Sirzy Mon 28-Jul-14 20:49:53

But that could just as easily be an adult who needs the space, but doesn't show they are disabled (or even temporarily ill). Plenty on here have suggested the spaces should only be used by those with very young children/under 3s - DS need for the space is more now than it was when he was a simple case of pick up and carry!

The point is need isn't always visible, and a lot of people need to be close to the shop more than someone who just happens to have a child.

daisydee43 Mon 28-Jul-14 20:53:31

too many posts to read but i tjink im not too bothered abt 10 yo kids using bays as they are prob a handful to get in and out of shops. i do however have a prob with people who use they bays witg no kids - even told of a disabled lady for doing it the other day and im pretty sure you cant even do that lol shock think as a parent you deserve one of those bays as long as their are kids and 10 years old is prob pushing it

fluffyraggies Mon 28-Jul-14 20:56:45

I don't think they should be just for the under 3's. I cant answer for those who do.

On the subject of hidden disabilities - i have been MNing for years and can say hand on heart that i have been educated by reading threads about the daily struggles of those who have disabilities both obvious and hidden. I sincerely feel that.

However - when a 20 something leaps out of his van and skips into Tesco, or a woman pops out of her sports car in 6 inch heels and totters into tesco, or a car full of teenage lads send one of their number into tesco - all leaving their car in a parent and baby space - i allow myself to think ''wanker''.

JadedAngel Mon 28-Jul-14 20:58:33

I'm struggling to understand your post daisy but did you just say you told off a disabled lady for parking in a parent and child space?

Slarti Mon 28-Jul-14 20:59:50

So what are you saying Slarti because your posts seem very much as if you think they are.

P&C spaces and Disabled spaces both allow for more space, do they not? That demonstrates that both parents and disabled people find more space useful

You are clearly putting parents and those who need BB spaces on a par with your statement that both groups find a bit of extra space 'useful'

On a par? Those are your words, not mine. I've simply said that both groups find more space useful, which they do, don't they? Not to the same degree, but then different people with different disabilities aren't all the same either, and don't all have the same needs despite all having access to disabled parking spaces, which brings us back to my initial point and full circle. Anything else is your own reading and not my opinion.

JadedAngel Mon 28-Jul-14 21:01:53

But do you understand Slarti that by having shared spaces, if they all happen to be occupied because they are filled up with parents and children, which they would be if there were more on offer, then this would likely be denying a disabled person from being able to park their car at all, or denying a family with a disabled child who needs to use a ramp or lift to exit a WAV from getting out of their car?

Vintagejazz Mon 28-Jul-14 21:02:04

Isn't there that infamous thread on Digital Spy where a poster came on to say that her 80 year old mother on crutches after an operation wouldn't allow her daughter to park in a P&T space with her in the car because mothers needed them more; and a few mothers came on to nod approvingly and say 'good for her' and such like. It was a real insight into the disgustingly self entitled attitude of some parents

Vintagejazz Mon 28-Jul-14 21:03:54

Slarti - parents find the spaces 'useful', disabled people find them 'essential'. Huge difference!

I agree with op.
Supermarket shopping was very hard work when my twins were toddlers and babies.
When they reached 4 years of age I stopped using those spaces because I fully realise other parents really need them more than I do.
I usually park as far away as possible, instead, where there is most space and my children are old enough to walk across the car park.
In fact - in my family all of us have legs that work so well we can walk for miles! smile

daisydee43 Mon 28-Jul-14 21:04:30

jaded - yes thats what i did cos theres loads of disabled spaces right next to them but i cant use them so there it is. she actually didnt mind me pointing this out

too many posts to read but i tjink im not too bothered abt 10 yo kids using bays as they are prob a handful to get in and out of shops. i do however have a prob with people who use they bays witg no kids - even told of a disabled lady for doing it the other day and im pretty sure you cant even do that lol think as a parent you deserve one of those bays as long as their are kids and 10 years old is prob pushing it

2/10, not funny. hmm

Deverethemuzzler Mon 28-Jul-14 21:04:47

No one can say I haven't tried.

PleaseJustShootMeNow Mon 28-Jul-14 21:07:44

It disablist to be advocating 'shared spaces' instead of dedicated disabled spaces. Those spaces are required by law to allow disabled people equal access in society. Arguing against them or trying to limit/reduce disabled people's access to them is pure disablism.

PleaseJustShootMeNow Mon 28-Jul-14 21:11:38

jaded - yes thats what i did cos theres loads of disabled spaces right next to them but i cant use them so there it is. she actually didnt mind me pointing this out

She was probably too stunned by your appalling actions. I get this often when I use my badge and park in p&c spaces. It's disgraceful and shameful. It's because of people like you everyone hates p&c spaces so much.

daisydee43 Mon 28-Jul-14 21:13:38

i dont understand everyones prob why hate p&t spaces just use them if there is one free big deal. btw love mn debates

MyFairyKing Mon 28-Jul-14 21:16:35

Daisy ~ "even told of a disabled lady"

What did you tell her of? smile

Slarti Mon 28-Jul-14 21:16:42

I did cover that earlier I believe. That would indicate an insufficient number of spaces!

Micksy Mon 28-Jul-14 21:16:58

I used one of these at asda's whilst 9.5 months preggers with my first. The shopping trolley man told me off because I didn't have a baby. I agreed, but told him I could easily have one on the way back out. He did not appear to find me half as amusing as I found myself, but the homicidal glint in my eye must have got the better of his disapproval.

Ilovemydogandmydoglovesme Mon 28-Jul-14 21:17:53

When your dc's get a bit bigger it is much easier to park at the end of the car park and walk. My dc's are more than capable of walking a couple of miles and do so frequently with me in the school holidays. They are too young to be left on their own at home when the dog needs a walk.

That said, it would be nice if all car parks provided a wide,enclosed, safe path through the car park to walk the dc's. It's terrifying walking young children through busy car parks.

Ilovemydogandmydoglovesme Mon 28-Jul-14 21:18:19

Micksy grin

Bodicea Mon 28-Jul-14 21:20:00

In the real world most peoe agree with you. In mumsnet they don't. Don't ask me why. It is what it is.

Slarti Mon 28-Jul-14 21:21:50

Slarti - parents find the spaces 'useful', disabled people find them 'essential'. Huge difference!

That depends vintage, disabled people aren't a homogeneous group.

daisydee43 Mon 28-Jul-14 21:23:46

bodicea - very true

MyFairyKing Mon 28-Jul-14 21:24:14

In real life, most parents don't whinge as much about parking spaces as they do on MN. Such a non-issue that kicks off.

JadedAngel Mon 28-Jul-14 21:24:44

But slarti - the car park would need a simply enormous number of general 'accessible' spaces to ensure that cars with a disabled driver or passenger could always park in a space they can get in and out of the car in.

If disabled and p&c as they stand were combined, you can guarantee that simply due to sheer numbers, ALL the accessible spaces would be constantly filled with families, leaving nowhere for those with disabilities.

This is precisely why there are spaces specifically dedicated to use by those with disabilities. To ensure they can always park.

Boredinchippenham Mon 28-Jul-14 21:24:49

I agree op , after all that's what they were designed for! I too have a bad back(quite serious boring) and my dh is in afghan for most of the time struggling alone with two little ones is hard work , I used to have trouble just lifting ds car seat ( he's not big honestly I'm obviously a wimp!) wink

MyFairyKing Mon 28-Jul-14 21:25:42

Slarti are you going out of your way to be ignorant or does it come naturally?! Do you really think those who need the BB spaces find them one of life's little useful pleasures?

PleaseJustShootMeNow Mon 28-Jul-14 21:27:23

That depends vintage, disabled people aren't a homogeneous group.

It doesn't depend at all. Blue badges aren't issued to all disabled people, only to those for whom they are essential.

PleaseJustShootMeNow Mon 28-Jul-14 21:28:40

The tone of this thread and the disablism of some posters is disgraceful.

Vintagejazz Mon 28-Jul-14 21:29:03

No one said they're a homogenous group. But I think you will find that it is very difficult to get a blue badge and they are only assigned to those who would have to turn their car around and go home if a space close to the shop/restaurant was not available to them slarti.

Vintagejazz Mon 28-Jul-14 21:30:53

I'm not sure if it's disableism or complete ignorance of the needs of blue badge holders, but either way your posts are pretty disgraceful Slarti.

Boredinchippenham Mon 28-Jul-14 21:32:40

Although very important why the arguments about disabled spaces this wasn't ops original question? Or am I missing the point?

PleaseJustShootMeNow Mon 28-Jul-14 21:38:06

Because p&c space threads always turn into disablism threads. Always. Without fail. Because there's always someone goady who equates having a child and 'needing' a p&c space to being disabled and needing a disabled space.

Slarti Mon 28-Jul-14 21:38:35

I'm not sure if it's disableism or complete ignorance of the needs of blue badge holders, but either way your posts are pretty disgraceful Slarti.

What do you think is disgraceful? Specifically, what do you think I've said that is disablist?

I've made it clear that I don't equate the two circumstances and that the only common characteristic is a need for more space. I feel some people are wilfully misinterpreting things in order to have an argument.

Also, I'm fully aware of, and have personal experience of, the varying needs of blue badge holders thanks very much.

Vintagejazz Mon 28-Jul-14 21:40:30

It always happens on these threads Bored. Some people start to equate P&T spaces with disabled spaces, failing to see that one is essential in order for a group of citizens to be treated with equality and respect; and the other is simply a concession by businesses wishing to attract the lucrative young family market.

Sirzy Mon 28-Jul-14 21:41:45

For people with children the extra space is a bonus, but realistically it doesn't stop you from going about your day to day life.

For someone who is disabled being able to park in a disabled space could be the difference between getting out and not.

The two aren't comparable and to suggest that the spaces being combined shows a lot of ignorance as to the issues faced by disabled people to do simple things that most take for granted

Boredinchippenham Mon 28-Jul-14 21:41:46

Sorry this is out of context but justshootme your the very fist person to ever reply to me!!! winegrin

Boredinchippenham Mon 28-Jul-14 21:43:17

Sorry first not fistblush

fluffyraggies Mon 28-Jul-14 21:43:34

Slarti - i think the problem lies with your posts suggesting that labeling all larger spaces as being for anyone with the need for it is taking away an essential and hard fought for specific space for those with a blue badge.

Vintagejazz Mon 28-Jul-14 21:44:03

For disabled people Slarti it's not always simply about 'more space'. For many disabled people, including those with breathing problems, a space by the door is absolutely essential. The fact that you can't differentiate between that and parents who simply find it convenient to have plenty of space to open the car door wide is indicative of your apparent ignorance of the reason for Blue Badge spaces and of their greater importance than P&T spaces.
And also, while a parent might struggle a bit to get a baby out of the car in a limited space it can in no way be compared to someone in a wheelchair trying to get out of a car and into their chair.

CharlieSierra Mon 28-Jul-14 21:45:10

Also, I'm fully aware of, and have personal experience of, the varying needs of blue badge holders thanks very much

In which case one might expect you to acknowledge the difference between nice to have a bit more space for comfort reasons and not being able to get out of the car without it. The point is if the spaces are either or, and p&c includes children up to 12, there is a high chance of someone in genuine need being denied access.

RonaldMcDonald Mon 28-Jul-14 21:45:15

P&C spaces should be placed far from the doors or front of the supermarket
Parents need space not proximity
This will solve the problem and stupid parents will not imagine that having the baby is the same as being disabled <also stop me from nicking P&C spaces>

MyFairyKing Mon 28-Jul-14 21:45:47

I don't think it's disablist, just pig ignorant and not that uncommon really.

Boredinchippenham Mon 28-Jul-14 21:47:52

Sorry to say and will not go down well, but unfortunately your average citizen is as thoughtfull or helpful as a chocolate potty!

fluffyraggies Mon 28-Jul-14 21:48:13

I for one would definitely be perfectly happy with the P&C spaces being right at the far back end of the car park. I don't need to be close to the shop, i just need to get the door open wide.

Slarti Mon 28-Jul-14 21:48:58

fluffy It wasn't my suggestion, someone mentioned a supermarket that did this and someone else said that's equating being disabled with having a child, which of course it isn't any more than disabled spaces equate being blind with being in a wheelchair.

Assuming that a supermarket who does it has provided enough space (ok, probably not a safe assumption to be fair) the only assertion they are actually making is that both groups will benefit from having more space, not that both groups (or any individuals in those groups) are the same. Any other interpretation is down to the reader, who very probably is looking to take offence and have an argument, IMO.

Boredinchippenham Mon 28-Jul-14 21:51:06

Very true fluffy just getting the door open is helpfull and in the case of some car parks the boot too! hmm

fluffyraggies Mon 28-Jul-14 21:51:22

bored - it's true. And it's sad thing. It feels like no one will lift a finger to help any other bugger these days. I have raised my kids to be kind and considerate and to help out when they see someone in need, and i feel we are in the minority for sure.

fluffyraggies Mon 28-Jul-14 21:53:13

Oh, grin x posts bored.

Vintagejazz Mon 28-Jul-14 21:53:17

Slarti, It is very important to distinguish between disabled spaces and P&T spaces. There are going to be far more parents and children in your average shopping centre so if you just provide for instance thirty extra wide spaces for use by either group, they will very quickly fill up with parents and kids and there will be no spaces left for disabled people; most of who will then have to turn their car around and go home.

Specific spaces need to be ring fenced for disabled people and no one else, including parents, should be allowed park in them.

Slarti Mon 28-Jul-14 21:54:01

The fact that you can't differentiate between that and parents who simply find it convenient to have plenty of space to open the car door wide is indicative of your apparent ignorance of the reason for Blue Badge spaces and of their greater importance than P&T spaces.

You've completely imagined that I can't differentiate between them. I can, and I do. On the other hand, you cannot differentiate between the statement "both groups benefit from having more space" and "both groups are exactly the same".

And also, while a parent might struggle a bit to get a baby out of the car in a limited space it can in no way be compared to someone in a wheelchair trying to get out of a car and into their chair.

Agreed. The idea that I'm trying to equate one with the other is entirely in your imagination.

JadedAngel Mon 28-Jul-14 21:54:46

I've tried to explain the very same thing vintage but it fell on deaf ears. Your explanation is better though.

Boredinchippenham Mon 28-Jul-14 21:54:58

Fluffy glad I'm not alone when did decency die out people used to open doors now your lucky if they don't let them slam on you! It might be old fashioned but a little thought for others goes a long way wink

JadedAngel Mon 28-Jul-14 21:56:38

slarti there is a difference between something that is convenient (P&C parking) and something that is a need (disabled parking).

It's quite possible for life to carry on perfectly fine without P&C parking. It isn't possible at all for life to carry on perfectly fine for people with disabilities if there is no parking available to them.

Vintagejazz Mon 28-Jul-14 21:57:03

No it's not in my imagination Slarti. It's in the text of your posts. And a large number of other posters have read them the same way.

Thanks Jaded

Slarti Mon 28-Jul-14 21:57:25

In which case one might expect you to acknowledge the difference between nice to have a bit more space for comfort reasons and not being able to get out of the car without it.

One might expect you to read my posts, specifically the ones in which I explicitly acknowledge that difference, before accusing me of having not acknowledged it. wink

Vintagejazz Mon 28-Jul-14 22:00:02

Slarti

You seem to believe that everyone on here is misreading your posts. Have you ever heard of the expression 'everyone's out of step except me' because that really sums up your attitude on this thread.

Slarti Mon 28-Jul-14 22:00:03

No it's not in my imagination Slarti. It's in the text of your posts. And a large number of other posters have read them the same way.

I've actually specifically stated on numerous occasions that I don't equate the circumstances and that the only common characteristic is that both groups would benefit from more space, but to differing degrees. You're so determined to take offence that you're imagining all sorts of implications to my posts. You're doing the very opposite of reading the text.

Vintagejazz Mon 28-Jul-14 22:01:12

No Slarti, that is the very first time that you have mentioned 'differing degrees' so please stop being disingenuous.

Slarti Mon 28-Jul-14 22:02:13

You seem to believe that everyone on here is misreading your posts. Have you ever heard of the expression 'everyone's out of step except me' because that really sums up your attitude on this thread.

One might also call it mob mentality grin the clue is when people start accusing you of having said something you haven't, or having not said something you have because they've seen someone else accuse you and taken it as fact wink

JadedAngel Mon 28-Jul-14 22:02:41

OK I'll say it again a different way:

"benefit from" and "require as an essential" are two completely different things.

This is why disabled parking must remain ringfenced specifically for blue badge holders and not be combined with parent & child parking.

If said combined parking was full, parents with non-disabled children can simply park elsewhere. They will find a way to get their child in and out of the car, they really will.

For a person with disabilities, often they DO NOT HAVE THAT CHOICE. It's a blue badge space or turn around and go home.

Vintagejazz Mon 28-Jul-14 22:05:23

I'm not going to keep going around in circles with you Slarti. Your posts are there for all to see, as are the reactions of other posters who have all read them in the same way. That is fact, whatever retrospective interpretation you choose to assign to them.

RonaldMcDonald Mon 28-Jul-14 22:07:22

Leave slarti alone fgs

Slarti Mon 28-Jul-14 22:08:53

No Slarti, that is the very first time that you have mentioned 'differing degrees' so please stop being disingenuous.

At 20:59 (on page 7) I said:

"I've simply said that both groups find more space useful, which they do, don't they? Not to the same degree..."

If you go back and read my contributions without the preconceived ideas then you'll see I've never stated anything about equivalence at all.

Slarti Mon 28-Jul-14 22:13:27

"benefit from" and "require as an essential" are two completely different things.

Again you're trying to imply that when I said both groups benefit from more space that what I'm actually saying is that they do so to the same degree and have the same needs. If that's what I meant, that's what I'd have written. You need to accept that you are, for whatever reason, looking for offence.

Vintagejazz Mon 28-Jul-14 22:16:04

Yes but you weren't differentiating between parents and disabled people. You were saying that disabled people didn't all have the same degree of need so all disabled people should be lumped in with parents in their need and assignment of designated spaces.

Slarti Mon 28-Jul-14 22:16:55

I'm not going to keep going around in circles with you Slarti. Your posts are there for all to see, as are the reactions of other posters who have all read them in the same way. That is fact, whatever retrospective interpretation you choose to assign to them.

With the greatest respect vintage (not that you are affording me much) who put you in a position to tell me what I mean and to accuse me of retrospectively assigning interpretations to my own posts??

You're right, my posts are there in black and white. wink

Vintagejazz Mon 28-Jul-14 22:19:16

I am telling you how your posts read to me and to all the other posters on here who have responded to the Slarti. We cannot go by anything other than what we read, and your posts read as being disrespectful to the needs of disabled citizens.

As you have agreed, your posts are there in black and white so if you're happy to leave them as stands and let other posters make up their own minds, I'm happy to withdraw from this argument.

Slarti Mon 28-Jul-14 22:21:04

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Vintagejazz Mon 28-Jul-14 22:23:50

As I said, let's leave your posts to stand for themselves. You obviously feel they read clearly and fairly, so if you're happy with that there's no point in arguing about it. Other posters can make up their own minds about them.

Slarti Mon 28-Jul-14 22:24:45

We cannot go by anything other than what we read

That's a joke, right??

I say, they both have a need of more space. I'm accused of saying they both have an equal need of more space.

I say, both groups benefit from more space to differing degrees, I'm accused of failing to acknowledge the differences and of ever saying such a thing.

That's the pattern for this entire conversation, it's ridiculous. But rather than admit you've got the wrong end of the stick you're going to keep digging aren't you?

Vintagejazz Mon 28-Jul-14 22:25:46

And please don't call me a 'dick' again. Namecalling is usually the last resort of someone who has nothing of any further value to add to a debate.

Vintagejazz Mon 28-Jul-14 22:26:59

No Slarti. I've said I'm happy to say no more and let your posts speak for themselves. You are the one who seems determined to keep the argument going.

Slarti Mon 28-Jul-14 22:27:45

And saying I was retrospectively assigning my own interpretation to my posts isn't the same as just telling me how you're reading them, it's asserting that I'm backtracking, that I originally meant one thing and I'm retrospectively assigning a different interpretation. You've got to be quite far up your own arse to go around telling people what they mean just so it fits with an argument you've decided you're going to have.

Ilovemydogandmydoglovesme Mon 28-Jul-14 22:30:39

I expect the Op has lost the will to live now guys but I'm sure it was all very interesting anyway, your personal argument. Not

Vintagejazz Mon 28-Jul-14 22:30:44

You really are very vulgar aren't you?

As I've said, I'm happy to let your posts, including your last few, stand for themselves.

I can't say fairer than that.

MorrisZapp Mon 28-Jul-14 22:35:48

Op

Yanbu

CharlieSierra Mon 28-Jul-14 22:36:51

Right. It was me who said I was pissed off that my local sainsburys had lumped their disabled spaces and p&c spaces together, thereby in my opinion creating equivalence between blue badge holders and parents of children up to 12. You replied

Since when has a visual impairment equated to having no legs? Despite both being eligible for a blue badge, it doesn't, of course. Having spaces that are useful to people with children and people with varying but not equal disabilities isn't a statement of equivalence, it's simply a practical measure that accommodates an overlap in needs, namely more space

What exactly was your point? The nuance is clearly too subtle for many of us.

whatsthatcomingoverthehill Mon 28-Jul-14 22:41:50

Slarti, some of your posts seemed to be saying that P&C and disabled spaces could be combined as one type, as they both provide more space.

This is putting them on a par because it implies equivalent importance. Numbers of disabled bays are governed by planning regulations, P&C spaces are a courtesy only and could be got rid of if they wanted.

There is not the option to provide 'more bigger spaces' in a lot of circumstances. Dual spaces would be filled up by parents leaving disabled people unable to park.

Do you understand why people have taken offense to your remarks yet?

PleaseJustShootMeNow Mon 28-Jul-14 22:51:05

The Sainsbury's near me combined disabled and p&c spaces a while back too. I could never park as they were full of non-BB holders. Then they increased the number so disabled people could still park. But they were always full of non-BB holders. Then they made them all disabled parking only but they were always full of non-BB holders because they'd parked there in the past and apparently couldn't read the new signs. Then they fenced the whole area in with a barrier that disabled people got a swipe card for. Then they were always empty because disabled people couldn't reach the swipe thingy without getting out of their cars first. So I went to Morrisons across the road instead but their disabled spaces were always full and I frequently got a bollocking for parking in a p&c space instead. I don't go shopping anymore. I rarely even leave my house. It's too much bother.

Lally112 Mon 28-Jul-14 22:57:27

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

hazeyjane Mon 28-Jul-14 22:59:43

Please, please please do not use the word 'fucktard' it is really offensive and hurtful.

hazeyjane Mon 28-Jul-14 23:01:17

The idea of 'extra needs spaces' is a really bad one!

maddening Mon 28-Jul-14 23:08:45

I don't think the two can or should be combined but why can both not exist alongside each other?

PleaseJustShootMeNow Mon 28-Jul-14 23:21:05

Maddening because some parents don't seem to be able to differentiate between legally prescribed parking places reserved to meet the basic human rights of a minority group and a nice perk provided by the supermarket to gain your custom. This results in them having a very entitled attitude which drives them to confront disabled people and make their already difficult lives that much harder.

Lally112 Mon 28-Jul-14 23:28:16

Its supposed to be offensive and hurtful hazey but it wasn't aimed at you. That is unless you drive a 54 plate jag x type and parked it less than 30 cm away from the next car in the co op car park an hour ago?

kali110 Tue 29-Jul-14 02:18:53

I'v been saying for ages p&c spaces should be further away from the stores to deter non parents using them.
Disabled are entitled to park in them though,

How do you tell how well a person is by how they look though?
Fluffy i have spinal damage and now problems with both knees and shoulders yet im 30 and look fine and very much younger. Some days i could cry from the pain. Occasionally i do wear my heels even if its just to go to do my shopping as it makes me feel good. I don't go out the house much anymore. I used to go to the pub, clubs etc get dressd up in my boots and heels etc before this all started, but ill never do that again, so sometimes i like to wear my heelsto feel good and to remind me of good times.(sad i know).
You would probably think i was fit and able so please, dont judge as you may not always be right.

As for someone having a go
At a disabled person, words fail me.

Singsongmama Tue 29-Jul-14 07:43:31

Just get your shopping delivered wink

hazeyjane Tue 29-Jul-14 07:43:54

It is offensive and hurtful because it is a handy way of saying 'fucking retard'. Just call the person an arsehole if you want to be insulting.

Have to agree any variation of retard makes me cringe as well.

maddening Tue 29-Jul-14 08:15:37

Tbh pleasejust that is not enough of a reason that p&c spaces should not exist - perhaps signage could be changed to ensure all are aware that a blue badge holder still takes precedence over all spaces including p&c spaces but some people being dicks is not enough to indicate that th p&c should not be available - they are v useful for parents with toddlers and especially babies.

There are twats in every part of society - don't punish the rest of us because of that.

bigdog888 Tue 29-Jul-14 08:18:34

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Sirzy Tue 29-Jul-14 08:27:03

Thankfully I live in a real world where people I choose to be friends with wouldn't dream of using such terms

hazeyjane Tue 29-Jul-14 08:28:03

The only time I heard someone I know use the word 'retard', I pointed out how insulting it was.

The people you know in real life must be disabilist wankers.

Why would you want to use a term which is so demeaning to people with learning disabilities?

zzzzz Tue 29-Jul-14 08:28:08

Well then bigdog in the real world you are really nasty person. Do you engage in other forms of hate speech or are you particularly focused on disability?

Do you use sexist, racist, and homophobic language with joy too? How pathetic.

lanbro Tue 29-Jul-14 08:33:26

I hate it when people say "we managed without them"! Surely, there are thousands of modern conveniences that make life easier although people managed without them for generations - electric kettle, microwave, escalators, banks open on Saturdays to name but a few. Should we not use things that help make everyday life allittle easier?

OP, YADNBU

ds2 and ds3 come home and tell me when they've heard the word retard. They find it more newsworthy than fuck or anything else. Must be having a learning disabled brother.

Justifying why you have to use it, knowing it related to people with learning disabilities is fucking weird imo. Why would you do that?

bigdog888 Tue 29-Jul-14 08:37:47

Why would you want to use a term which is so demeaning to people with learning disabilities?

Because I really couldn't give a fuck.

Sirzy Tue 29-Jul-14 08:38:37

what a lovely person you are bigdog

Oh you're one of those.

Have said it before but having a learning disabled child is a great filter.

hazeyjane Tue 29-Jul-14 08:44:45

I know you won't give a fuck, bigdog, but I hope you are banned.

I know you won't give a fuck but using terms like fucktard and retard make the lives of people with learning disabilities harder.

I know you won't give a fuck but my 4 year old son with disabilities is one of those people.

I know you won't give a fuck because you are, oh so cool and full of yourself, despite being no better than something I would wipe off my shoe.

zzzzz Tue 29-Jul-14 08:59:08

bigdog444 i can only hope you reap what you sew.

Don't get upset hazey - let's face it bigdog444 is not someone that is going to add anything positive to their friends lives. Like I said, ds1 is a great filter - love having him.

pippitysqueakity Tue 29-Jul-14 09:07:47

How nice that on a thread where a lot of posters are trying to explain nuances of disableist language, along comes someone who 'doesn't give a fuck'. Way to go.

bigdog888 Tue 29-Jul-14 09:10:26

let's face it bigdog444 is not someone that is going to add anything positive to their friends lives

How wrong you are. BTW the word you wanted was friends'

hazeyjane Tue 29-Jul-14 09:11:30

You are right, Saintly. I just hope I don't come across too many Bigdogs in rl.

<repeats mantra - It's so easy to laught, it's so easy to hate, it takes guts to be gentle and kind......and breathe>

But, ahem, MNHQ, if anyone was around last night or today??

bigdog888 Tue 29-Jul-14 09:12:37

Thankfully the real world isn't full of terminally offended, PC do-gooders.

Sirzy Tue 29-Jul-14 09:13:40

I have reported bigdogs post. One day people will stop and thing about what their use of such words means to others. But it seems disabalist attitudes are sadly still deemed acceptable by some.

forago Tue 29-Jul-14 09:13:41

It's the same word, different punctuation <sorry, couldn't resist>

Sirzy Tue 29-Jul-14 09:14:16

Big dog - out of interest do you deem the use of racist language acceptable?

BINGO - terminally offended & PC do gooders. Just missed out on 'brigade'.

How do you stand on racism & homophobia bigdog? Is that all PC-gone-mad bollocks as well?

hazeyjane Tue 29-Jul-14 09:16:27

Haha, so you are pedantic about grammar, but hate speech is fine, you are a peach.

I reported fucktard last night, but everyone must be on holiday.

<polishes, pc do gooder, terminally offended badge>

I do find it slightly amusing that someone defending their right to use 'fucktard' will correct punctuation - presumably to show how clever they are. Er......

zzzzz Tue 29-Jul-14 09:20:44

You do realise that we are in the "real" world don't you 444? confused I mean you get there are people typing these responses to your unpleasantness?

Do you thing sexist, racist and homophobic language is fine too?

I think perhaps a little self awareness wouldn't go amiss. You may not be the positive experience you think you are. Certainly if you were spouting this nonsense anywhere I went you would be a very negative influence on my day.

HaroldLloyd Tue 29-Jul-14 09:21:01

People in the real world do not say those words on a daily basis actually. Not in my real world anyway, wouldn't fancy yours much.

Ds2 says his friends use retard all the time. But they're 12 and they have the sense not to use it in front of me. They're nice boys & girls - I expect they'll learn not to use it all by the time they're grown ups.

bigdog888 Tue 29-Jul-14 09:30:59

Make sure you avoid American films then people!

bigdog888 Tue 29-Jul-14 09:32:15

Well Harold we obviously live and work in very different environments then.

PolterGoose Tue 29-Jul-14 09:36:16

People who think retard is an acceptable insult are cunts.

There is a cultural difference between the UK & USA. They're not keen on the word toilet for example.

However, there is actually quite a bit of campaigning amongst learning disabled groups to raise awareness about the offensive nature of the word 'retard'. I expect it will gradually stop being used do much - like spastic & mongol here which were fairly acceptable terms in the 70's.

Why are you so keen to use it? :genuinely baffled: Do you not have any friends/family members with learning disabilities?

Oh I meant in the USA. Disability groups - even in the States - are not keen.

Deverethemuzzler Tue 29-Jul-14 09:37:35

People like Bigdog make me laugh/

They talk about the real world.

In the real world Bigdog wouldn't use that term in front of me.

Not twice anyway.

Don't make the mistake of thinking that those of us who care about this shit would smack you in the mouth sweetie.

hazeyjane Tue 29-Jul-14 09:38:08

www.r-word.org/

An American campaign regarding the use of the word retard. I have many online friends in America whose children have the same condition as my son, they find the word retard as insulting and offensive as any decent person in this country.

zzzzz Tue 29-Jul-14 09:38:24

Given the amount of violence, particularly rape and murder let alone the racist and sexist language, in films I'm guessing most people don't actively try to emulate them.

Using who and what someone is as a generic insult is vile. It is particularly vile when that characteristic is already hugely disadvantaging and difficult for them.

What about just deciding not to do it anymore? Try it for a day, or a month, or a year, depending on how ambitious you are.

magso Tue 29-Jul-14 09:40:01

YANBU. P&C spaces should be in a safe corner away from the main entrance with a safe walkway to the door.
I have a disabled child who doesn't have a blue badge because he can walk - the difficulty is he can also run faster than me - into danger. Indeed if he could count and figure out running around a track he could probably be a talented distance runner. It is very hard now to get HRM or a blue badge for a child that can walk even if their disability means they cannot obey instructions and keeping safe is a challenge. And just before you flame me I don't use P&C spaces or blue badge spaces.

hazeyjane Tue 29-Jul-14 09:42:59

Magso, why wouldn't you use parent and child spaces?

thornrose Tue 29-Jul-14 09:43:06

Thankfully the real world isn't full of terminally offended, PC do-gooders and thankfully it isn't full of people like you.

To be told the word is disablist and use it anyway with a fuck you attitude makes the user sound ignorant and unpleasant.

Sirzy Tue 29-Jul-14 09:44:38

I would say your need for p and c spaces was greater than most parents. Why won't you use the spaces?

Deverethemuzzler Tue 29-Jul-14 09:47:28

That should have been 'wouldn't' obviously smile

sr123 Tue 29-Jul-14 09:49:17

If you think it would help with keeping your child safe then there is no reason why you should'nt use them.

zzzzz Tue 29-Jul-14 09:58:32

I used the p&c spaces for EXACTLY that reason. Ds is 9. It's fine. Put your sensible head on and do what is necessary.

bigdog888 Tue 29-Jul-14 10:01:52

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

KateSMumsnet (MNHQ) Tue 29-Jul-14 10:02:36

Morning folks,

Thanks for your reports - just to let you know we've now banned bigdog888. If there's anything else you'd like us to look at, please do report it to us.

hazeyjane Tue 29-Jul-14 10:04:07

dear god, I hope I never meet you in person, bigdog.

Oh missed that - did he/she/it get even more offensive? Blimey.

Looks like this thread has achieved something positive then!

hazeyjane Tue 29-Jul-14 10:09:37

Thankyou mnhq.

In a strange coincidence, an American friend on FB just shared this.

TheFairyCaravan Tue 29-Jul-14 10:10:08

Kate why haven't you deleted Lally's post? I reported that last night, it has disablist language in it, and was the start of the vile stuff on the thread.

SistersOfPercy Tue 29-Jul-14 10:11:51

Deleted posts and bigdog go together like strawberries and cream don't they?

hazeyjane Tue 29-Jul-14 10:12:03

oh, I thought it had gone, I reported too.

Pinkrose1 Tue 29-Jul-14 10:16:34

I hope big dog being banned is a bit more final than a deleted post. Have also reported Lally who can't understand that using an offensive name to someone who doesn't have a learning disability makes it less offensive confused

kali110 Tue 29-Jul-14 10:26:43

Is big dog banned for good?

thornrose Tue 29-Jul-14 10:35:22

I agree Lally's post should be deleted. I'm sick of being accused of being PO when I object to this kind of language, it's bloody exhausting!

At least Bigdog has gone under that name

Andrewofgg Tue 29-Jul-14 10:40:46

Just one mildly silly and o/t reminiscence.

A few months ago I sent an email to several colleagues. The sign-off should have been Regards but I hit G instead of T . . . just as well they all guessed what had happened.

I set up an auto-correct to make sure it never happens again. If I ever need to use That Word I will have to remember to work round it.

Andrewofgg Tue 29-Jul-14 10:42:05

Damn it. Hit T instead of G. You probably guessed that.

SignoraStronza Tue 29-Jul-14 10:42:57

In our local waitrose the p&c spaces are often taken up by elderly people who are NOT disabled but probably should have surrendered their licence ages ago due to lack of spatial awareness, crap eyesight and total inability to manoeuvre a car into a normal parking space. I've seen them, grinding gears and bunny hopping around the vast car park before landing, often diagonally, in an extra wide p&c space.

SignoraStronza Tue 29-Jul-14 10:44:06

So maybe they should have spaces labelled parent and child and those who are bad at parking!

thornrose Tue 29-Jul-14 10:44:25

Whoops Andrew grin

FraidyCat Tue 29-Jul-14 10:44:43

I love all this 'cars used to be smaller' stuff. My mum used to have a Volvo 240 estate when we were little. Bloody great tank of a car. Don't remember her having any problem parking it at the tiny car park next to the supermarket.

Parker's guide says a Volvo 240 estate was 1701mm wide, not including mirrors. That is narrower than virtually any car on the road today. One of the narrowest cars you can buy is a Prius, and that is wider than the Volvo. My 2014 Golf (theoretically a much small car than your mum's "great tank") is 1800mm wide, not including mirrors which would take it to 203cm.

thornrose Tue 29-Jul-14 10:45:50

Yes, put crap parkers in a separated fenced off bit of the car park. Maybe pad the whole thing, bouncy castle style.

Pinkrose1 Tue 29-Jul-14 10:46:14

Hopefully bigdog is banned for good and if they come back will be spotted by their distinctive posting style. Sure as hell doesn't have the intelligence to be offensive by stealth!

Boomeranggirl Tue 29-Jul-14 11:05:00

My hubby and I parked in a mum and baby spot with our 3 month old the other day. There was a space next to us free and a woman pulled into the slot in her car with no child in the back. My husband gets irked by this as we've have many a scrape trying to get in and out with car seats, etc because we couldn't get in to a mum and baby slot. So he says to woman (she can't have been more that twenty or so, very short dress loads of make up, big hair, looked like she'd been tango'd!) that it was a mum and baby slot, she replied 'I'm a mum' and he said 'but you don't have your kid with you and someone might need it', she told him to fuck off and stomped off!

I'm starting to despair that some people are just so self centred they literally don't give a monkeys about anyone else except themselves.

LabradorMama Tue 29-Jul-14 11:15:37

YANBU but for some reason mumsnet is completely U about these spaces. I agree, I thought they were for parents with small children who need to be lifted out, hence needing more door space. Apparently though, they are for any Tom, Dick or Harry so one wonders why they waste their paint putting pictures of parents and children on them hmm

There is nothing more annoying than waiting for one of these spaces, driving patiently round and round only to be pipped to the post by someone who nips in in front of you, usually having come the wrong way up the one way lane. Another waste of paint hmm

LabradorMama Tue 29-Jul-14 11:16:00

Someone without a child I should have said! grin

Sirzy Tue 29-Jul-14 11:19:50

Don't waste time driving around waiting for a space then, simply park elsewhere and save yourself time nd hassle!

thornrose Tue 29-Jul-14 11:21:28

Boomerang why did you post such a detailed description including her short skirt and fake tan? Genuine question!

Branleuse Tue 29-Jul-14 11:25:20

I use parent and child spaces sometimes even if i dont have the children with me. Mainly because im shit at parking, and they give me more room

Branleuse Tue 29-Jul-14 11:26:55

I feel that as I didnt actually drive till last year, I have years of entitlement accumulation

LabradorMama Tue 29-Jul-14 11:28:26

sirzy I do when necessary but I have a small baby to get out of the car and I have SPD so need space to manoeuvre. The spaces are for people who have small children, such as myself, hence they are much easier so worth driving around and waiting for if I've time.

Thanks for the gratuitous advice though.

Happydaysatlastforthebody Tue 29-Jul-14 11:29:51

Can I retrospectively park in them as they weren't around when mine were babies? I feel entitled to. grin

SistersOfPercy Tue 29-Jul-14 11:54:58

fraidy my Fiat 500 is 1627mm so only a little smaller than that Volvo which kind of puts it into context doesn't it. Out of interest I have just looked at the car I travelled in mostly as a kid, a Cortina MK III and I was amazed to see it was only 1702mm wide.

Personally when I go to the supermarket etc I always head for the far end of the carpark. My kids are grown now but I did the same when they were babies.

HaroldLloyd Tue 29-Jul-14 11:56:36

Me too. That's my strategy!

HaroldLloyd Tue 29-Jul-14 11:57:25

If you need space your much better off parking at the back and avoiding all the scrabble at the front.

SistersOfPercy Tue 29-Jul-14 12:05:20

The other thing I do (which probably won't go down so well) is I actively avoid parking next to cars which obviously have kids in (baby on board signs, car seats etc).

CallMeExhausted Tue 29-Jul-14 12:05:20

It is times like this I am happy that I am several hours behind the UK on the clock. It seems I have been fortunate to have missed the uproar. This is a very good thing.

OP... I think someone warned you about how mad a P&C spot thread can become - they weren't kidding.

Writerwannabe83 Tue 29-Jul-14 12:06:44

The problem I have is that my car seat is ridiculously heavy and the thought of having to carry it from the furthest away car parking space all the way to the front entrance of the store where the trolleys are kept doesn't fill me with joy....

Writerwannabe83 Tue 29-Jul-14 12:07:53

callme - at least now I know to never start threads about car parks in the future grin

Singsongmama Tue 29-Jul-14 12:09:38

I feel that as I didnt actually drive till last year, I have years of entitlement accumulation - please tell me this is a joke?!

Sirzy Tue 29-Jul-14 12:17:38

leave the car seat in the car then.

I have never understood why people take the seat in and out of the car, talk about making work for yourself!

dawndonnaagain Tue 29-Jul-14 12:18:18

I use them. We have a blue badge but when they redesigned the local Tesco they put the Parent and Child spaces nearer than the disabled spaces and until they rectify it, I shall continue to use the Parent and Child spaces.

TheFairyCaravan Tue 29-Jul-14 12:46:49

I use them at the new Sainsburys for the same reason Dawn. The P&C are right next to the door, the disabled spaces are across the road and in the corner of the car park!

hazeyjane Tue 29-Jul-14 12:47:23

Or get the trolley and bring it to car.

Writerwannabe83 Tue 29-Jul-14 12:48:40

sirzy - the ASDA near me doesn't have the trolleys with the little green seat in for babies, all it has is the trollies where you can put the car seat into it.

But to be honest, even if they did have those types of trollies I wouldn't feel safe carrying my DS in my arms across the car park. I'm not meant to freely carry DS anyway because of a health condition I've got, but like I said, I don't think I would anyway.

Sirzy our car seat is part of the pushchair. DD is too young to go in the flat bit of her pushchair, and cries if she goes in the baby seat in the trollies, so leaving the car seat in the car wouldn't work for us.

Writerwannabe83 Tue 29-Jul-14 12:50:12

hazey - do people really leave their babies unattended in the car whilst the walk a fair distance and back to go and get a trolley? shock

TheFairyCaravan Tue 29-Jul-14 12:51:24

What is shocking about leaving the baby in the car for 30 seconds to get a trolley?

Do I live in some kind of supermarket blackspot? We never have free blocks, even at the far end of the car park, and I'm yet to see a trolley where you can stick the car seat angry

Writerwannabe83 Tue 29-Jul-14 12:54:50

If I parked at the very back of the car park, as has been advised by some posters, it would take a lot more than 30 seconds to walk to get a trolley and then walk back to the car.

Plus, I wouldn't do it anyway, I take DS into the petrol station with me smile

I have always had it drilled into me that I should never leave a baby unattended in a car because if something were to happen to me whilst I was away from the car (either related to my medical condition or if I was mowed down in the car park in this instance) how would anyone know I had an unattended baby in the car?

Writerwannabe83 Tue 29-Jul-14 12:56:16

moomin - my local ASDA only has about 8 of the car seat trolleys but they are a godsend. It also means you don't have to disturb a sleeping baby if they had fallen asleep in the car on the way to the store smile

Pobblewhohasnotoes Tue 29-Jul-14 12:56:41

I always leave DS in the car to get a trolley (he is 2), it takes seconds. But at my local supermarkets there are trolley parks everywhere, not just at the front.

I always go shopping with OH so we just take the pushchair and a trolley grin

HaroldLloyd Tue 29-Jul-14 12:57:45

Carry the baby to the trolley.

Parking at the back is loads nicer.

TheFairyCaravan Tue 29-Jul-14 12:57:57

Do you not have trolley parks in the Supermarkets where you live then? Are all the trolleys outside the front door? I've never encountered a supermarket like that in my life, tbh!

Do you really lug a "ridiculously heavy car seat" across the petrol station forecourt to pay for petrol?

Sirzy Tue 29-Jul-14 12:59:01

Park by the trolley park, saves any hassle of trying to find a trolley.

I do that now with DS as it means I can fasten him in his seat, then put the shopping in the boot, then return the trolley.

Writerwannabe83 Tue 29-Jul-14 12:59:11

If I go shopping with DH I just make him carry the car seat grin

pobble - the main car park does have trolley stations situated around the car park, but the car seat trolleys are only at the front of the store next to where the parent and child spaces are grin

Writerwannabe83 Tue 29-Jul-14 13:00:35

I do fairy grin

HaroldLloyd Tue 29-Jul-14 13:01:10

Why not just take the baby?

This is why online shopping is the best grin

Writerwannabe83 Tue 29-Jul-14 13:03:35

I'm not supposed to carry my baby freely unless I really have to - I have epilepsy so can't risk dropping him should I have a seizure - I'm even supposed to carry him in his car seat when I go up and down my stairs shock

Sirzy Tue 29-Jul-14 13:04:34

surely carrying him in his car seat is more dangerous really, especially with the added weight.

And surely the epilepsy means you don't drive, therefore won't be alone in the car therefore why is it an issue?

Writerwannabe83 Tue 29-Jul-14 13:09:06

Apparently the car seat is meant to protect them as at least if I drop that he is protected inside it.

I do drive, my epilepsy is controlled enough for that. Apparently the first 6 months after having a baby is the biggest trigger for causing seizures to return hence why my ?Neurologist team tell me to take these extra precautions. They've increased my medication dose to try and counteract any seizures occurring but I just have to be more careful for this time period.

Pobblewhohasnotoes Tue 29-Jul-14 13:09:11

And surely the epilepsy means you don't drive, therefore won't be alone in the car therefore why is it an issue?

^^This.

Surely if there's a risk you could drop the the car seat due to a seizure, you shouldn't be driving either?

Pobblewhohasnotoes Tue 29-Jul-14 13:09:31

X post.

EstellaSpitsEmOut Tue 29-Jul-14 13:10:54

I completely agree with you OP. They are there to make people's lives easier who need them - not for the convenience of everyone. Common sense would hope someone with a perfectly mobile child wouldn't take one of these spaces.

Sirzy Tue 29-Jul-14 13:10:59

So its enough of a risk you cant carry a baby but they do let you drive a car? Sounds very odd to me!

Writerwannabe83 Tue 29-Jul-14 13:15:04

I know sirzy - but I guess they know they know it's not realistic to tell someone they can't drive for 6 months. They just say it's about reducing the risks where possible. There are recommendations about not driving whilst medication doses are reduced, which will most like
The the case for me in2 months, but I'm not sure how long for. But it is only a recommendation, not a rule. I probably would stop though.

Sirzy Tue 29-Jul-14 13:15:20

BTW not for a second suggesting your lying, just sounds rather concerning mixed message advice to me. Surely if there is any risk they should be stopping you from driving?

SistersOfPercy Tue 29-Jul-14 13:16:26

Surely at petrol stations its easier to pay at pump than get a child out of the car?
That said, I left mine in the car and went in to pay anyway when they were small.

Writerwannabe83 Tue 29-Jul-14 13:21:46

sirzy - you can't be stopped from driving unless you have a seizure - hence why they can only recommend it with medication dose reductions and not enforce it. It's not a risk I'd like to take though.

sisters - where possible I definitely use pay at the pump smile

Missunreasonable Tue 29-Jul-14 13:38:09

Writer wannabe: surely the safest thing to do would be to take a pushchair which folds up small enough to not take up room in the boot and put baby in that. I can't see how lugging a heavy car seat around is safe. If you were to have a seizure and drop the car seat it would only reduce injury if the car seat fell so it was facing upright; it wouldn't do any good if the seat turned over as it fell.
If the risks of a seizure are that high that you need to be careful even going up and down stairs then it would make sense for you not to be driving. It doesn't matter what the legalities are it's about knowing what you need to do as a responsible person to reduce risks. I think the consequences of being in a serious accident due to a seizure are at least as concerning (probably moreso) than dropping baby due to a seizure although neither scenario bears thinking about.

Writerwannabe83 Tue 29-Jul-14 13:43:29

You're right missunreasonable - I was in such a flap about TTC because of my health, me and DH had a lot of pre-conception counselling etc. I have obviously got nothing against women with epilepsy having babies but it must be so much harder for women who still have active epilepsy.

One thing I considered doing this morning was parking next to one of the normal trolley stations at the back of the car park, getting a normal sized trolley and putting DS's car seat in that, and then wheeling him in that to the car seat trollies grin I'm sure I would look pretty loopy but it would solve the problem smile

andsmile Tue 29-Jul-14 13:47:21

The OP as a member of this forum is entitled to ask - this is her experience she wants to share, and ponder through a discussion with others who may or maynot have taken part in a discusssion on this topic in the past.

Why bother posting to tell someone it has all been done before just move on and find something unique to you to talk about on another board.

The sarcastic comments about the topic of discussion are worse than outright personal attacks in this instance. Just because those posters have been parents or participated in a discussion before seem to give them a right to do this?

naty1 Tue 29-Jul-14 13:50:43

People take the car seat out if they have a young baby that is likely to go to sleep in the time round a supermarket. If they are thry sort to cry when moved when asleep.
Or maybe you just want to pop in and get something.

If the breathing problem is asthma them actually a little bit of walking gently is probably a good thing.

I dont understand why older slightly disabled people dont just ask the driver to pull up in front of the store for them to get out with lots of space, again thats what i would do if pregnant and needed extra room. (Provided youre the passenger)

So i think the p&c are only really necessary up to 1-2yrs or even a year.

I think they are better by the entrance so you can easily grab the trolly and may not need a raincover.

Clearly a 10yr old with no disabilities would need no extra space

fledermaus Tue 29-Jul-14 13:51:21

You won't risk carrying your baby in case you have a seizure, but you will risk driving and possibly killing him and anyone else unlucky enough to be on the road at the same time if you have a seizure hmm

Either you're being ridiculously precious about carrying your baby or ridiculously blasé about driving.

andsmile Tue 29-Jul-14 13:52:49

Even taking the sleeping baby out of a carseat is tricky as you could wake them yes but its still difficult to manouver round a tight door angle and if they are wriggler you run the risk of them banging their head of foot.

Sirzy Tue 29-Jul-14 13:53:07

If the breathing problem is asthma them actually a little bit of walking gently is probably a good thing.

Well if you don't mind having to stop every few minutes, and give plenty of extra inahlers etc. But its fine as long as someone else doesn't need to 'wriggle' to get a child into a car seat hey!