Work trying to bully me into cancelling holiday(388 Posts)
Sorry if this is the wrong place but this section has the most traffic and hoping for someone to help me.
Long story short is a booked my annaul leave in january in line with company policy and it was approved. After the approval I booked an expesive holiday to the USA for 3 weeks to see my parents as my father is in poor health and would like to see him before he deterates futher (long term problem with no possiblity of a cure sadly).
Now the crux of the problem last week my work colleuge is now wanting to start her metinity leave 2 months early than planned and now because our department is small one of us must be in the building for the department to run (I dont want to give too much details here as its very specislt field of work and dont want to out myself) and the meritity cover cannot start 2 months early than planned so my boss is putting large amounts of pressure to cancel my holiday and treating gross misconduct when I refused to cancel it as my manager blunty said when I asked is the company going to compestate for my finacel loss (non-refundable flights / hotel deposits etc) and she basically said tough luck the company WILL NOT pay for the loss of this money (roughly £3000) and I should just absorb this loss and consider it one of those things, which I replied no I am not willing to lose not only my last possible chance of seeing my Father before he passes away but also that amount of money which is a large amount for me.
Which is the reason she is quoting gross misconduct as I am refusing to cancel my holiday with only 2 weeks notice and that I am expected to eat the fiancal loss as well as prescous time with my father and my question is twofold
I am unreasonable to refuse to NOT cancel my holiday no matter that it will causes massive problems for the company and the second are they legally allowed to breech their own policies relating to booked holidays to be able to say my holiday will be treated as unauthrised absance and thus a gross misconduct offence even though I have all the documents saying it was authorised etc and finally if they are allowed to cancel my holiday at such short notice can force them to pay for my lost money so I am not out of pocket (travel insurnce will not pay out as it is not covered by their terms)
I am sorry for the long post and if it is in the wrong area and for any spelling or grammer mistakes as I have dylexia and no spell checker on this device.
I don't think they can do this at all. Are you in a union?
If not contact ACAS, they will arbitrate between you and your employer. Not sure but CAB may also be able to advise.
I know some employers such as the police can cancel holidays. But this is something which employees know is a possibility and even then I think they're compensated.
Blimey, they are considerably out of order. Is there an HR dept?
Not sure about the short term, but in the long term I'd be looking for a new job.
I'm sorry about your father's health.
The fact that they are going to be short staffed is their problem to address. You have followed the correct procedures it seems. Are you in a union?
I'm confident that taking pre-booked holiday is not 'gross misconduct.'
One of the reasons that people go down the employment route rather than running their own businesses is to avoid having to sort out staffing problems. It's your employer's problem, not yours.
It would be an even bigger problem for your employer if his/her treatment caused you to resign - then s/he'd have two of you to replace. Keep that in mind! (I'd be keeping an eye out for suitable jobs, just in case)
If they continue these threats (I assume you've documented them) I think you should be looking at raising a grievance.
Ring acas as soon as you can because I have a suspicion that yes holiday can be cancelled with sufficient and correct procedure and if they follow that then to take your holiday would be gross misconduct. You need proper advice quickly.
Thank you everyone (yes I am documenting the threats as my boss emailed me them to me ) I am just just shocked on how they are treating me I have worked here for 5 years and my boss always treated me fairly and this is totally not how I judged her
How do I contact ACAS is it a region based thing? and does it cover Wales? If not is the CAB the best bet?
I hope you get good advice and get this problem sorted - seems very unfair.
Really though, this is an example of why everyone who can join a union, should join a union.
Is 9 working days enough notice for them to cancel my holiday as I am due to go on the 16th of june?
Thank you all for your help its just so much a shock and its all happening so fast
The problem is caused by the maternity leave, not you. But yes, they can do this if they give you the right notice...
An employer can refuse a leave request but they must give as much notice as the amount of leave requested, eg 2 weeks’ notice if the leave requested was 2 weeks.
So, as your leave is for 3 weeks and you have 2 weeks notice, they cannot!
They should hire a temp.
Legally if your employer wishes to cancel your holiday (which they can do) they have to give you notice equal to the length of holiday. You say you are taking three weeks holiday and it is in two weeks time, if this is the case they are too late to cancel the holiday.
Citizen Advice have information on their website about this.
I can't believe this! Even if they wanted you to rearrange your holiday for their convenience, they should be bending over backwards to make it worth your while doing them this massive favour - including more than compensating you for financial loss.
Of course they can't just say "you can't go and it's tough that you'll lose money"
I don't know the legalities but if they are so reliant on one of you and your pregnant co-worker, what would happen if you became seriously ill or injured while she was on maternity leave? They would have to find some sort of cover for your role then surely? I think they ABU but I don't know whether the law agrees.
This may or may not be relevant:
"An employer can refuse a leave request but they must give as much notice as the amount of leave requested, eg 2 weeks’ notice if the leave requested was 2 weeks."
seems to be a very murky area and one you may need proper advice with.
meanwhile, start looking at job ads.
Do you really feel like you want to stay there?
btw your manager is Dagenham*.
If one person goes off on maternity, and she sacks the other, or they are so peeed off that they resign, has she got what she wants?
Thank you everyone I have just googled ACAS they are now closed so it looks like its going to be a stressful weekend until they open again on monday.
Is it worth going to see a employment socilertor next week?
Id say yes. It seems very unclear if the notice = holiday period applies to previously booked time off or not.
Sadly PigletJohn my line of work is very specilized and this job is one of the few happening at the moment in the UK I would have to conisder going abroad to find similear work.
You don't necessarily need to see a solicitor, employment tribunals are quite helpful, and it may be that the threat of a mega-lawsuit will deter them without needing to fork out.
As well as ACAS, double check the wording of your company policy regarding holidays, and see what it says about cancellation.
If you're acting within the policy, and she's not, then she'll be the one in trouble
What date did your employer first disallow your holiday?
the 4th of june she asked me informally to conisder giving up my holiday but the offical request didnt happen unti the 6th
So when this other person is off on maternity leave what would happen if you were off ill??
Or are you just not allowed to be off now for the whole of her maternity leave?!?
Surely they need to think about this situation aswell as this person could legally be off for a year and you can't expected to cover all shifts/ days for that length if time!!!
Are they planning to get cover in for the woman going on maternity leave?
Or are you expected to do here job too?
This doesn't seem fair, you will get some good advice if you post in employment issues. I know there are some very knowledgable and helpful people on there. Hope you get it sorted, it sounds horrible.
sorry I didnt make it clear they have cover sorted but my collegue has decided to move the start date 2 months early than first arranged and the cover they have arranged cannot start until a month before the offical start date and because off the speiclized nature of the work its unlikely they will find a replacement cover just for the month shortfall
I'd speak to ACAS first - that guidance seems very unclear to me. It talks about refusing a request for leave, but not cancelling previously authorised leave which are two slightly different things. However, they do seem to be out of time, even if the guidance applies to authorised leave as well.
If ACAS are no clearer and you can afford it, it may be worth a quick consult with an employment solicitor - if they think what your employer is doing is wrong, then it would be worth it just to see the look on your bosses face when you ask her to copy any correspondence about gross misconduct into your legal representative.
If ACAS / legal advice suggests that you suck it up, check to see if your travel insurance will cover this scenario - your boss will just have to provide written confirmation. Alternatively, you could sue your employer via the small claims court as you booked your holiday in good faith that the leave had been authorised.
Another thing to consider is if, by cancelling the holiday, your employer is preventing you from taking the statutory minimum annual leave - this would depend on when your leave year ends, and what your leave entitlement is. If the cancellation of the leave means that you won't be able to take the statutory minimum before the end of your leave year, they can't ask you to cancel it.
What reason is your co-worker giving for changing her booked maternity leave and how pregnant is she?
What do your contract/handbook say about employers being allowed to cancel leave?
The reason I ask is that there are rules about notifying maternity leave start dates and the notice that must be given to change this, unless she's signed off sick in the last few weeks of pregnancy. There are also general rules about amount of notice that employer must give to cancel annual leave. Both of these are usually spelt out in detail in your T&C's.
Given that she's moving it forward by two months, I'm suspecting that she's not in that last few weeks. It changes the picture, because - and I may be remembering incorrectly! - that should mean she needed to give 28 days notice in writing to change her dates, and the company therefore would have had plenty of time to resolve this issue without flapping at you had this been 'maternity leave'.
However, I think it more likely that your co-worker is struggling with her pregnancy and has been signed off, if she's leaving at such short notice. This is relevant you, because it means that what your employer is asking you to cover is a colleague sickness absence, not a 'maternity leave'.
The key issue there is when your holiday actually is and how much notice they're giving you about cancelling. If they're giving you the stated amount of notice, they may be right - on technical grounds - about being able to do this. They have a business reason in a key member of staff being unexpectedly absent, and that may be all they need. It's a bastard thing to do, no argument, but they may be able to. Most contracts do have that clause.
Under those rules, you would then be AWoL, and it would constitute Gross Misconduct. Is it the normal procedure at your workplace for you to over each other like this? If there's custom and practice for cancelling holidays at short notice, particularly if you and this lady have done it for each other, it may weaken your position when this comes to the crunch.
What I'd be inclined to do is read your contract and then write to HR/Senior management and explain the situation. Point out all your extenuating circumstances, and note that, if you are outside the notice period is that this should mean they have a good number of weeks to come up with another solution as well, as you would consider the nature of your father's illness/distance/financial implications to be exceptional.
If they aren't within that period, then it's honestly their problem and not yours, but be aware that it will cause resentment. Go, and prep your documents for the all out when you get back.
It's a shit situation and it sounds like your company seriously needs to look at its staffing and back up procedures, as it's poor management that this situation has been allowed to occur.
Crossposts - Notifying you on 6th June for a 3 week holiday starting 16th?
Yeah, either your co-worker has gone sick or someone's agreed to the change without thinking it through - although, as a side note, I wonder if your employer is bullying her into starting her 'mat leave' early as well, if she is sick? - but that's not your problem.
Unless you have an odd contract, that's not nearly enough time.
Confirm with ACAS on monday, but they're likely on a hiding to nothing here.
Thank you everyone for being so helpful with all your advice I will take everythnig on board.
Ginnybag we do normally cover each others sick days etc we are quite close and socialise outside work she hasnt confided in my why she has moved mertinity leave forward 2 months but it could be something do with coping being pregent and with toddler aged twins
and BloominNora I have alreayd spoken to the travel insurance company they have notified me that I am out of time for work relatied not being able to fly as apprently I am meant to give 1 month notice is work commitments are stopping me from flying
and my TC of employment are not finilized after the merger of my company with a American firm so under the conidstions before the merger they would be breach of these but apprently since the the merger they are retrospectly changing the conditions to bring ours inline with theres so they are not clear about cancelling holidays but there is a line in the new conidtions (I havent signed them yet) that the company holds the right to cancel any and all annaul leave incase of emergrines with 48 notice only requried
(but according to the websites linked here that is contray to UK law) so I am thinking these conditions are tailiored for US law which could make them invaild in the UK right? (sorry I am not very good with law)
Get advice. Personnel recommendation Barker Gilette, London. Excellent firm. Used them several times. Pm me if wish. Google them.
That is bloody outrageous..
I would be willing to re arrange my holiday if they covred me that I wouldnt be so out of pocket £3000 is alot of money and I cant afford to throw that away (If i did there would not be enough to actully re-arrange a holiday)
I had even emailed them to that regaurd but they flatly refused saying that they wont even consider it and I should just do as they asked as I am not apprently showing company loyality by asking them to not make me out of pocket (I was not asking for extra so to cover what i was losing)
If they carry this through they are up shit creak. They haven't given you the appropriate period of notice and trying to shoe horn it as gross misconduct will have them facing an unfair dismissal tribunal where you would win on multiple counts.
They can't just threaten this, they have to perform an investigation.
Just read up on your rights and contact ACAS and make them aware of the situation and inform your employers you are investigating your employment rights with a view to a tribunal and as soon as your boss has been on to their solicitors they should back off, once they know how much trouble they could be in.
and thank you Minie I will google them for a number would a london firm be willing to take on a case in Wales are welesh employment laws different to English (I know there is differences between scotland and england but not the others)
I have known very well paid senior people to cancel their annual leave at short notice due to a company emergency etc but they are always financially compensated.
I'm not sure what the law is regarding cancelling pre-authorised annual leave but I would be amazed if they can treat it as gross misconduct if you refuse to cancel considering that they are refusing to compensate you.
Yikes. They can't impose something unreasonable on you retrospectively. Your existing Ts&Cs are still in force until such time as you sign the new deal. I hope you get a new job before that happens!
Do stand up to them. This is going to be a very expensive case of bullying for them, it would be much cheaper for them to get a temp. No well-run business should depend on the presence of one single person. As someone said upthread - it's entirely possible you could be ill during this maternity leave so they need to have a way of functioning without you.
OP, start looking for a new job, but in the meantime, refuse, politely, and just go.
'We're bringing in new T&C's following a merger...., you haven't seen them/agreed them/signed them yet, and they probably breech UK law but you're going to be bound by them retroactively....' Excuse the phrasing here, but tell them to fuck right off.
Your T&C's are what you signed. End of. They will continue to be your T&C's until you agree to new ones - because they cannot just impose new ones, merger or not. Look up TUPE for this.
Write to them, tell them they haven't given you nearly sufficient notice, that you are not insured because they haven't given you notice and that you would like to open a formal grievance about the way you're being spoken to and threatened. You feel you've demonstrated sufficient loyalty by cancelling on previous occasions, but cannot accommodate them this time, particularly since this would have seen you significantly financially disadvantaged and may have long term family implications for you.
Then also mention the new T&C's and that you have been threatened with being in breech of these. When were they issued to you? Have they proof? What was the consultation period? Have they evidence of your agreement to them.
Your worst case scenario here is them sacking you for Gross Misconduct - make it very, very clear that you'll file the tribunal paperwork for unfair dismissal the following day if they try this, particularly with an unanswered grievance in place. They'll lose - oh, boy, will they lose - and it really won't be cheap for them!
If your work is so specialised, have you considered whether there's a market for you setting up alone?
If your company has merged I suspect tupe. If thats the case then your previous contract should stand however it is complicated and you would need legal advice to confirm.
They are out of time to cancel your leave under ordinary circumstances. If they want to use business need then they need to be able to demonstrate that. I dont think sick or maternity cover would be sufficient.
You need to contact ACAS they are not being reasonable.
Thanks again everyone and a big thanks to you Ginnybag I will be writing a formal letter to the HR along the lines you have highlighted but if it does go ahead looks like I will need to find a new job because I really dont want work for a company with some of these purposed policies.
its such a shame this company used to be really really good but since the take over (I cant think of it as a merger with the extreme change in everything) I dont think I can work under some of these polices
I don't think the maternity leave is going to cut it either, its not a sudden unforseen event.
Well, the US is mostly "At Will" employment, which means they can fire you whenever they want with no reason. It also means you can quit whenever you want without having to give notice. But it gets tricky because they need to prove they're not discriminating against you if you sue for wrongful firing so people get "laid off" because "the department is downsizing", not fired over here unless there's behavior issues they can prove. There's no protection, it's all cold numbers. If you're not making a profit you (and sometimes the rest of your team) get the boot no matter how long you've been working there. Company loyalty counts for nothing here, so jobs generally have a fast turnover rate of about one per year or more for some people depending on their field.
Anyway, if you have a specialty field, I don't think they'll throw the baby out with the bath water. It makes no sense to fire someone with no replacement in mind.
I shuddered when you said it was a US company, they usually have much worse Ts&Cs for staff ( I know I used to work for one) primarily because in the US there is no welfare states and unions aren't as prevalent.
I really hope you get to go without it turning into a huge thing. I'm actually really shocked that it's legal for a company to cancel a two week holiday with two weeks notice .
"my TC of employment are not finilized after the merger of my company with a American firm "
ha ha, I've seen something similar.
There is probably some Septic trying to lay down the law without any knowledge or understanding of UK practice and employment law, never mind the idea that there is a place called RoW which is different from US.
As pp said, not your problem.
They need to sort the cover - you've had it booked for 5 months FFS.
Sorry about your Dad op
Why does early mat leave trump a pre booked, authorised holiday?
They're picking on you because it would be madness to refuse the early mat leave.
Acas have an online faq database here Which has information on cancelling holiday and tupe.
When you are stating the cost of the holiday, don't forget to price up how much it would cost if you were to take it once the new mat cover has started. As you booked it far in advance it would be more expensive particularly as it may now fall in school holidays.
thank you everyone for your kind words and advice I am no longer feeling worried now that I know I have the UK law on my side. And thank you Rookie I didnt think of that if the agree to pay me my out of pocket expenses i will factor that it in to my claim
And thank you everyone for your help and sorry for long reply I had to Cook DCs dinner
Even if it wasn't illegal it would be really shitty of them to ask you to do this and not cover the cost of cancellation/ rescheduling. The fact that is IS illegal means that they are total wankers. Go, enjoy spending time with your dad and good luck with the job hunt.
OP I'd ask MNHQ to move this to "Employment" there are some very knowledgeable HR people on there who will be able to tell you exactly where you stand and give appropriate advice.
I suspect their issue should be with the change of maternity leave not your holiday.
If all else fails perhaps you could say if they proceed with gross misconduct then you will give notice. You sound hard to replace esp with colleague being on ML.
I hope you get to enjoy this precious time with your father.
Fro what you've said, they would be up shit creak without you after your holiday. You don't seem very replaceable, so they should probably try to be a bit nicer to you.
I have no advice but just wish you well with this as it sounds really horrendous and I hope it is resolved quickly for you. I am sure you could do without the added stress.
Good luck. They are treating you absolutely appallingly.
What completely baffles me about these cases is where the boss and the company think their relationship with you is going to go after this, of course you are going to bounce through the door on the first day of your cancelled holiday full of beans and keen to do your best!
I used to work in HR but I can't add anything more than everyone else because none of the companies I've worked for would have done this to any of their employees without offering generous compensation.
It might not be your companies fault that they are suddenly short staffed, it is their responsibility.
Baffles me that they are arrogant enough to think someone should owe them more 'loyalty' than they do a dying father or to themselves as someone whose father is dying.
I wonder what they will do for staff if you are fired for gross misconduct if you go away? I bet they have not considered that. Absolutely shocking behaviour from the company. Some great advice above. I see you are already keeping evidence - make sure that all conversations are also confirmed in writing too and don't agree to anything on the spur of the moment unless you are very certain of the pros and cons of the decision. You can always just ask for 24hrs to think about the answer and get back to them, then take further advice.
Also the tribunal would cost them a lot more than recompensing the OP for costs.
Agree with beautifulgirls. Always say you need time to consider.
I bet your boss is worried about their own job now that your company has merged with an American one. It was his job to ensure that there was adequate cover for when your colleague went on maternity leave and he/she has failed. If anyone gets fired as a consequence of this it will probably be him/her not you.
Bloody hell… this sounds awful.
Hope you manage to sort this out and spend much needed time with your family.
If the boss was not like this before then s/he is probably getting pressure from above.
Definitely call ACAS rather than CAB. They are just trying to bully you and there is no way they can sack you for this, or even instigate a disciplinary.
To be honest, it isn't even just about the money is it? If this trip is so important in terms of possibly being your last chance to see your father, then they will have to suck it up and hire a temp.
Hold your nerve. Tell them you have spoken to ACAS/an employment lawyer, and that you know your rights. If they continue you may need to lodge a grievance.
Even if you had signed those ts&cs they would be about as valid as a chocolate teapot...no contract that is in contradiction of UK law would stand up in court.
I bet your boss is worried about their own job now that your company has merged with an American one. It was his job to ensure that there was adequate cover for when your colleague went on maternity leave and he/she has failed.
This sounds quite plausible to me. Do you think that's how it is?
If so, is your relationship with your boss such that you could have a quite word with them to suggest that they have a chat with your company's UK-based HR department / UK-based general counsel / external employment solicitor about the situation before they dig themselves any deeper?
The reason I suggest this is that if you go the formal HR or legal route you will probably win, but your relationship with your boss (and perhaps with some other colleagues) will be irretrievably broken.
I hink whatever could well be right that your boss is worried about their own position.
How much do you actually like and want to keep your job? This is heading for ending very acriomiously but you can keep your cool and keep open a way out that is fair to you and managable for them: Would you be willing to put an offer in writing that you would be happy to cancel your holiday if they are willing to promise NB IN WRITING that they will refund you in full for all financial losses from what you have spent on this holiday and allow you to rebook the same length of leave for another time within the next 6 months with sufficient notice for them to be able to arrange for and train an alternative staff member?
No advice to add, just wanted to wish you a good trip and hope you get to enjoy this precious time with your father
Hi Worrid, glad you are feeling more confident about the situation now. I'm so sorry you are being treated like this. They are totally out of order. I hear so many stories of unpleasant and totally unreasonable employers on MN, it makes me feel very grateful for my kind boss. Good luck to you.
Afaik there's no difference between England and Wales on employment law. ACAS and a London solicitor should be able to help. Just mention where you are at the outset. Good luck sorting it out.
That is horrendous! They are being so stupid too - if you're that specialist they should want to keep you. If you leave by unfair dismissal during your colleagues maternity leave they will be stuck.
When the UK company I worked for was bought by a bunch if idiot Septics, I was told (in a managing awkward staff thing) that the thing to do is to mollify them so they stay, giving you time to recruit a replacement, then get rid of the awkward person at a time of your choosing, not theirs.
So even if you think things have been patched up, you may not have a long and happy association with the company.
U.S. employment law and practice are very different, and you might feel they do not treat their overseas native labourers with respect.
On Monday join a union. Most will help you out right away. If they don't then you will have their services in the future. Join the union and from this point on refuse to attend any meeting with management without a union rep. If a meeting is to be in any way about discipline or your future at the company there must be someone else there than your boss - another manager (could be HR manager). If the meeting is supposedly not going on your record and not official then the other manager must leave or allow you to have your union rep present.
Idiots. They will lose you altogether at this rate and then be even worse off.
Wonder if there's any possibility that the manager is overly cautious about the fact that the colleague needs to go off for pregnancy-related reasons, and is mistakenly thinking that any accusations of breach of employment law/T&C's will come from her, rather than the OP. So she's trying to keep the pregnant employee happy (because no one wants to be accused of sex discrimination), at great cost to the worker that is actually being screwed over. It sounds like she hasn't taken/been given any HR advice surrounding leave because she's tried to sort out the issue quietly, and now it's about to blow up in her face. Her discussions with you, trotting out lines about "loyalty" and other shite sound like bluffing. If her position was correct and confirmed then she'd be quoting your contract and T's & C's, not making vague statements like that.
OP, if you cancel this holiday you'll regret it. Please tell them to do one after seeking specialist legal advice. Really, really hope you get this sorted.
It sounds like the boss has been told by the US management to sort it and she is trotting out phrases that she has been told to, without anyone checking if they stand up in UK employment law.
God I'm so angry for you just reading this. They are totally out of order. Yanbu. Sorry not to have better advice apart from echoing what others have said.
This is clearly stressing you out.
4 weeks on sick
Hi WM, hope you're managing to have some sort of a decent weekend.
My advice would be not to get involved in any discussion that can be twisted and used against you later. Keep all discussion about it by email & save them to a stick so they don't get lost in an unexplained IT glitch.
Also, I would join a union, maybe Unison or TGWU & have a good talk to the rep. They will have dealt with exactly this type of situation before.
Whilst you shouldn't have to, is it worth asking your colleague about her need to go on leave early? Naturally there's not much that you can do about it if she is going early due to medical reasons, but if she's just going early because she is choosing to, then she may not realise what impact her choice is having on you. Does she know (and care) that work is trying to force you to cancel your holiday? Is there anyway she would be able to return to work for those weeks, even part time, or could the two of you both work from home part time (and you doing some work on your holiday via laptop) to keep things ticking over while you are away?
You and her absolutely should not have to do this, quite frankly I'd be telling them to go jump, but it might be worth having a chat together and see if there is some sort of solution that may be developed. However, even if it does work out, my own faith in my company would be permanently damaged and I'd be looking for a new job anyway. Any company with such little respect for their employees doesn't deserve any loyalty.
I can just see this employer getting very nasty about someone going abroad while on sick leave.
Poor advice from glasgowstevenagain imo.
glasgow is she meant to lie to her GP? Or do yoy think that we GPs just dish out sock notes on demand? FFS.
Sick notes I mean, not sure what a sock note is!
thank you everyone I am having a better weekend with everyones advice but sadly their isnt any updates office is closed but I have contancted the UK based HR i have also fowarded the email converstion as well.
In my bosses slight defence I think she is being presured into doing this by her bosses who are now Americans but this does not excuse how she is treating me.
I will carry out all communitcation via email and I have backed up the emails to my personal penstick.
I sorry I dont feel confortable in wasting my GPs time with this problem as I dont think the stress is unhealthy levels and i dont like lying
but thank you for your support and futher advice I will update tomorrow evening once I have rung people etc and heard from HR
sorry again about spelling I do not have a spell checker on my ipad
Good luck with it worridmum. You sound lovely and your spelling is absolutely fine. For what it's worth, you sound like a model employee and they'd be a fool to lose you - I just hope they realise that.
Good luck, hopefully they will panic when they realise you've done your research
I hope you get this sorted op! I'm really angry on your behalf and really really intrigued as to what it is that you do I know I know!
Just another one saying good luck.
Sorry that your dad is ill. For that reason I wouldn't postpone the holiday, considering that your colleague will be off for some time and it looks like you'd have difficulty getting time off then.
Also be wary about approaching her about why she is taking maternity leave early, in case it is seen as 'badgering her'.
Good thing you are not pg too, isn't it!
Start job-hunting but in the meantime just tell them that they have not given you enough notice and you are going.
Good luck from me too
Their treatment of you is disgusting.
I've employed hundreds of people and can tell you they're almost certainly taking the piss - quite apart from it being appalling personnel management
Others have dealt with advice agencies, but I think you have to prepare yourself for the possibility of them "creating" a misconduct scenario as an excuse to get rid of you, just out of spite. It would be a stupid thing to do, especially as they've been foolish enough to threaten you in writing, but hardly surprising after the way they've behaved
If that happens it wouldn't be pleasant, but whatever you do don't just walk Go straight to tribunal instead, where you could very easily make a great deal of money out of them - which they'd richly deserve
Do you think she is not stressed out.
So she goes sick...
Just caught up with it all.
Apologies no need for sick leave,
Just stand firm employment law is on your side
They are wankers - hope you have this sorted today.
One thing that occurs to me, (and I am sorry if this is in poor taste) is what would happen if your Dad got worse or suddenly passes away? You said he won't get any better.
You may need time off without warning and your colleague may not be there to cover. Your company needs a plan in place.
Disregarding my terrible advice about a sick note.
What would happen if the OP broke a leg or had a family emergency!
OP this is all kinds of nonsense on your employer's part. Any contractual terms which give the slightest hint of permitting this have to be exercised reasonably, and this is not. I would also say its a breach of the employer's common law duty of respect owed towards their employees.
What is the point of being employed if it going to lose you so much money?
GlasgowSteven you were beginning to scare me!
I don't think it matters if they've introduced new policies, especially if those policies aren't in line with European employment law and also you would have to have signed a new contract surely?
Hope you've had some positive progress OP
Your colleague is required to give 28 days notice to change the start date of her mat leave. If she requested the change last week that would mean she doesn't have to be allowed to go until the beginning of July, which would cover most/all of your holiday OP.
I really hope you have managed to sort this out as well.
Hope they come round!
Sorry everyone for the delay in updating but I have been stupidly busy trying to sort everything out.
Now the actully update the shit has trully hit the fan so to speak
with first me reciving emails on monday from my boss begging me just to cancel my holiday and stop asking for not being left out of pocket. I politley replyed that I will NOT be cancelling my holiday and quoted the regulatialtions that people adivced me on (thank you everyone). After which she said she would forward / inquire with her boss on what to do with the situtation.
I also got a string of email from my collegue to asking me to stop being awkard and just to cancel my holiday etc (I am not quoting her exact words as it was basically an essay on reasons I should basically stop causing her stress) And when I asked why should I be left £3000 out of pocket for the the pleasure of cancelling my holiday she called me selfish and that apprently there are more important things than money and I should be the better person and cancel my holiday. I decided not to reply to the last email as it was just going around in circles (I backed up a copy of these emails aswell just incase (thanks again for this suggestion)
about 20 mintutes before I clocked off for home I got a email requesting I attend a meeting on tuesday afternoon (today) to try and sort this problem out and that both my boss and colleuge would be attending.
After I left work I thought it was a good idea to Ring the lawyer that was recomended and they have basically said that the company had no leg to stand on and that they would happily repersent me if I have to take things futher I mentioned the meeting and they strongly suggested I make a record of the meeting just incase.
Tuesday morning nothing eventful other than one last email from my boss asking if I would reconsider my postion before the arranged meeting I declined.
The meeting I was abushed by the 2 senior members of the company and the new owner as well as my collegue / boss and basically to sum up the meeting was that they WHERE going to procced with a GROSS misconduct as apprently I was blackmailing the company by asking to be not made out of pocket after they asked what the problem was etc and they have not suspended me without pay until they have investigated the whole incederdent and than demanded I go home by email abut an hour after the meeting (I backed this up as well).
After I left the office they were also adding that I left the premiese without premisson to the aguesation. When I repled that I was asked to leave they said they had no record of the email that was sent (surpirse surpire the last 4 days emails had been wiped by a techincally fault apprently) Thank you everyone that told me to back these corrsponace up the complete bastards
I have now put in a formal grivence and am about to engauge the suggested solictors and now that I have been suspended I dont know what to do all this stress is really upseting me I have never been in trouble before with anything and am really upset that I have been treated like this.
I am sorry that this is very long and sounding very unreal I wouldnt belive it myself if it wasnt happening to me as we speak.
Thank you everyone for support and advice I dont know what else to do now and this whole thing has completely ruined the lead up to my holiday
Wow they really have completely ballsed up. What a bunch of pricks. Good on you for getting a copy of all the emails! Pretty foolish of them to leave a paper trail.
It sounds like they must have gone to your colleague when you refused to cancel your holiday and tried to get her to put pressure on you. Makes her pretty pathetic to go along with it. Regardless of the outcome of all of this, I think my working relationship with the company would be unsalvagable and I'd be looking for a new job. I could not work for these people.
Genuinely, go and see your GP. I know everyone has shot down the idea of getting stress leave to take your holiday because it was wrong, but the situation has now changed. If what is going on is now causing you stress, then get it documented. Everything official about the impact of their actions on you that you can have when this goes to court will be of benefit to you.
Engage the law firm and go on your holiday. Make the absolute most of the time with your family. The lawyers can get started while you are away and can always send you an email while you're away.
Good luck OP, and please try not to think about this too much while you spend time with your dad. That, ultimately, is the most important thing.
OP, you will not be working there for much longer anyway will you cos they are bastards. So you may as well go and see your Dad and try not to worry.
I do understand how upsetting all this is but try to see the bigger picture.
You are going on holiday. You have important things to do with your family. Whatever happens with employers you are best off out of it and they will end up paying.
You are in the right! They are being outrageous. Let the solicitor take over. Good luck!
I have been following this thread agog at their demands.
How on earth are their bullish ways ever going to make you want to do them any favours!! What horrofic bosses!
Good on you for standing firm, you have done nothing wrong.
I am under the impression that if you are being investigated it has to be done without prejudice and on full pay until the outcome is decided.
Worridmum, I'm really sorry that you are going through this. I don't have any useful advice, but want to wish you well.
WHAT A BUNCH OF UNCONSCIONABLE CUNTS!
I'm so angry for you.
Well done on backing up your emails.
It's companies like this that the employment protection laws were deigned for; frankly it's hard to believe hey ould be so stupid, given the money it's going to cost them
For pity's sake, agree NOTHING without legal advice - they've lied and lied and lied again, and when they start to realise the position they've left themselves in, they'll lie again to try to get out of it
Enjoy your break as best you can and look forward to being a lot richer before too long
Blimey OP no advice but what a bunch of bastards they are!
And it is not you causing your colleague stress. It's them.
This is the sort of shit you expect from an abusive partner with gaslighting etc. How have they found so many people to go along with blatantly breaking the law?
Wow they're idiots. Please stand up to them, you deserve to be seen right.
thank you everyone I have now offically started job hunting as I DONT want to work for them anymore and I doubt I will have a choice in the matter now since my guess is the suspenstion will lead to dismal
What do I do about a reference because I was their for 5 years I cant actully ask them to provide one and my prevous ones are 5 years + old am trully screwed for jobs now arent I?
An ThinkIveBeenHacked its been clear its suspension without pay with immidete effect sadly though I think they are trying to fire me under the leaving without premisson with the susipous deletion of emals
You might want to get this thread deleted, it is quite identifying and perhaps could breach your work's social media policy. I appreciate that this thread might be good support, you could continue to PM people with expertise.
My poor girl, by the time this is over you might well be looking at enough in compensation to be able to take the next two years off! They are completely and utterly in the wrong and an employment lawyer is going to make mincemeat of them.
This is ridiculous! This can't happen in an UK company, are they stupid?
Excellent work on your behalf, including backing up emails. They know they are in trouble if they have been deleting emails for 4 days on the system!
To reiterate what others have said, don't worry about it, enjoy your holiday and focus on your Dad. Your bosses are worthless.
They cannot suspend you without pay - they must pay you.
Have you checked your household insurance to see if you are covered for employment issues?
I am so glad you have copies of those emails. Make extra copies now. Just in case...
Good luck with your job hunt.
Fire you for leaving without permission? When you have the email actually instructing you to go?
They really have lost their minds, haven't they?? The lawyers are going to absolutely love this
They have to pay you whilst you are suspended.
I am really shocked at their behaviour.
Stay strong op. You are doing the right thing.
SueDNim thanks for the warning thankfully my company does not have a social media policy other than if I bad mouth and name the company using my offical twitter or linked account
I read my companys policy in depth before I posted and as long as I dont name anyone in the company or the company name itself I am in the clear in line with the Terms and condsitions I signed when I first started to work their
OMG thank goodness you got advice here and have copies of all those emails - they have completely shot themselves in the foot!!!!
I'm sure your lawyer will deal with this case easily and you will end up with an out of court settlement (sorry no legal experience but they have been so stupid).
I know no ££££ will make up for what they have put you through. I hope you have a lovely time with your extended family.
Forgot to say ... whatever happens, do NOT let them know you have copies of the emails; let them believe the evidence has gone
What's needed here is for them to go right on digging themselves a hole to maximise your payout
Have you told them that you have copies of the emails that mysteriously disappeared?
Ignore them - engage solicitors, go on holiday, enjoy your Dad and look forward to a new job in the near future.
X posted - I agree don't tell them you have the emails, I just wondered if they knew. I guess not!
I truly think they did not realise I was backing up the emails as the email that told me to leave was also deleted and It is the one they where saying they had no record of. I dont know were I would be without all you guys support I certinally wouldnt of backed up the emails without your advice and thank god I did
You have a wonderful case for the employment tribunal. Get a good lawyer who specialises in employment law. Your lawyer will be delighted with all the evidence you saved before they deleted it (and I'm betting they will be too stupid to have kept a copy for themselves).Don't forget the point about the change of maternity leave without giving proper notice etc.
My bet is you will get a handsome payout for either unjust dismissal or constructive dismissal. Which, whilst not solving immediate issues may be soothing somewhat.
They have to give you a reference at least stating how long you worked there. I don't think they can give you a bad reference due to this massive fuck up on their behalf.
I've just attended a CV workshop at WorkFest. I was told in the CV masterclass that you don't have to provide references from your employer - you could use sympathetic colleagues (may not be any around), ex-colleagues, people you have done business with/worked with outside of your company. Perhaps you can think of some good contact/connections you know and contact them to ask if they will provide you with a verbal and/or written references. Think laterally.
Where are you located? I know a great Employment Law Barrister on the South coast who could probably recommend a good lawyer down that way or in London.
They've been so stupid it's beyond belief. Relax as far as you can. Let your solicitor deal with it. They've done you a massive favour tbh it seems likely that from now on it'll be a miserable place to work with a suspiciously high turnover of staff.
I have checked my house insurnce it sadly does not have legal repersention for employement problems other than If i was injured.
Does anyone have a ball park figure of what my costs would be in persuing this ? I do know I need is £2000 to go to the tribual
my guess is the suspenstion will lead to dismal
Even if, after seeking advice, they realise they have been unbelievably stupid and can't fire you, you would probably have a case for constructive dismissal if you didn't want to return to work after your suspension. But get proper advice on that.
do not tell them you have the emails.
But do try and get a camera into the office so you can be a "fly on the wall" when they find out you do have them!! (joke)
You're really switched on, they really don't know what's going to hit them.
You may find that a solicitor will go for a no win no fee deal, as they have stuffed up so magnificently.
Op what a bunch of nasty bullies. Yes please do take it further, as they cannot treat you like that and others.
Sorry to hear this.
regarding a reference.
Not companies now only give a basic disclosure reference.
name dates employed and position.
not reason for leaving
they will not give any other details on it.
but make sure you put
not line managet
Tribunal should be free.
Have you been suspended.
Refusing to cancel a holiday.
The blame for this is also on your colleague.
Delete her off Facebook etc
Best of luck OP. They have really shot themselves in the foot. Ugh, I worked with a boss like that. Pressure came on her, she couldn't handle it, and was so unreasonable, as a result.
So now when the colleague goes on leave, they are truly up the creek, because of what they have done to you!
It's a very tough situation for you. Please go on your holiday, enjoy the time as best you can. Possibly consider deleting the thread, in order not to 'show your hand', as this case will definitely need to go further.
All the very best.
Even if you couldn't get a no-win-no-fee deal, you should be able to recover costs - see link above. Obviously you'll want to take advice on how watertight your case is, though there really doesn't seem any doubt ... that's what lawyers are for
I would strongly suggest that you go to your GP and have how stressed this has made you noted on your medical records. Then if this does go to tribunal you have evidence of "injury to feelings".
I've been open mouthed reading how they have behaved.
Thank you everyone about everything and espically with regaurds to the references I was panicing about those as with most jobs references a key for getting jobs at the moment its so great to hear about basic disclosure references.
I was having nightmares about a bad reference that would follow me whenever i tried to get a job or to have a massive 5 year gap on my CV but thank you all from the bottom of my heart
How great for you that you work for a company who does everything by email rather than actually talking to each other.
As you have been suspended without pay for an unknown length of time (?) it maybe an idea to ask them for a reference - and watch them fuck that right up too!!!
How long are you ment to hang around on this payless suspension? Hang in there - let them continue to email you. Keep working that poker face.
you could have thread moved to the secret place where it won't come up on any searches etc if you are worried about disclosure.
Did you get a chance to delete your history/cookies etc on your work computer?
Make sure you write down EVERYTHING you remember from the meeting today while it is still fresh.
How about taking a print of this thread so you have a basic time line of what has happened? Then you can filter in the emails and notes.
That way you can hand the bones to your solicitor.
I bet your colleague does not take her maternity leave early
OP Their behaviour including that of your colleaugue expecting you to take the hit of losing 3 grand is appalling and disgusting as well as illegal.
Try to enjoy your holiday and let the solicitor take care of things. Its great that you have those e mails backed up.
FUCKING APPALLING. They are going to come out of this looking like the greedy entitled idiots that they are.
I never used mumsnet on work computers thankfully I have remote access powers to my emails as with everyone in my department incase we needed to work from home / deal with an emergny.
Already done magoria I made the notes stright after the meeting so I could remeber them exactly.
I just realised could I be in breach of data protection act my making copies of emails? for evidence in tribuanals?
Unbeleivable that the colleaugue also said to the OP that she should take the hit of losing the 3 grand.
Thank goodness you backed up that last email so if they do accuse you of going AWOL you can shove it up their arses! Best of luck and try not to let it cast a shadow over your holiday (easier said than done)
I'm sure MN law experts will be helping you fight your corner but best wishes from me.
What are the lawyers saying OP? I should imagine you are going to be in for a handsome payout from this company when you go to tribunal.
You may be able to negotiate a reference as part of a settlement. Compromise agreements often have an approved reference that they have to provide. Mention your concern to your counsel. And ask whether, if it gets to that point, you can include your reference in the negotiation. Good luck. I'm sorry you're in this situation.
It's like the company have read 'how to dismiss staff for dummies' <disclaimer - probably does not exist> and then decided that today is 'opposite day' and let's just make shit up as we go along!
Can you write everthing you remember from the meeting .Shame you couldn't have taped it .Not that you can use it but it might have helped you write everything down .Best of luck .May the power of mumsnet be with you .
Check your contract. If it does not mention that suspension without pay is an option then they have to pay you.
Suspension is a neutral act while they investigate. It should only be used for serious issues.
Google Acas disciplinary and grievance code. It is the bare minimum your employer needs to follow, failure to follow this means an uplift in any compensation you may be awarded at tribunal.
Go to CAB they are really good and will be able to help.
my advice is to enjoy your holiday. If your contract does not allow for unpaid suspension then send a letter before action quoting employment law illegal witholding of wages the day after, I would maybe email on the day requesting payment.
Do not contact them by phone. You need a paper trail so emails and post by recorded delivery. If you have to hand deliver anything get it signed for.
Wakeup - I did record meetings from a company that made me redundant.
When we turned up at the tribunal their lawyer said that the recordings were inadmissible.
The tribunal chair just looked at them and said "this is not a court, it is MY tribunal, and I maake those decisions. I considr the tapes relevant"
I got an offer the next week
Sorry for the digression OP. Sorry they are putting you through this. I remember the stress I went through at the time.
It sounds like you have a fantastic case.
"they have not suspended me without pay "
should that be "not" or "now"?
the emails are addressed to you, therefore they are yours and you're not in breach of DPA by retaining them. If you're suspended for a non-specified amount of time without pay, you'll clearly need to find an alternative job at some point and you may well have a case for constructive dismissal if you're forced to resign. Your solicitor will be able to advise properly though! Good luck!! On a slight tangent, I assume your colleague is far along enough in her pregnancy to be able to go on ML? Bringing it forward 2 months is quite a lot. ML can't normally start until 11 weeks before EDD. Ironic really if they've gone through all this and then she couldn't actually go on leave...
sorry yes piglet it should be now silly typo on my part my bad
Unbelievable. Why are some people such utter bastards?
Glad you got copies of everything, take em to the cleaners!
The meeting I was abushed by the 2 senior members of the company and the new owner as well as my collegue / boss and basically to sum up the meeting was that they WHERE going to procced with a GROSS misconduct as apprently I was blackmailing the company by asking to be not made out of pocket after they asked what the problem was etc and they have not suspended me without pay until they have investigated the whole incederdent and than demanded I go home by email abut an hour after the meeting (I backed this up as well).
Was your pregnant colleague, included in the "ambushing"?. If so, why? & what the hell does your problem have to do with her?
Open to the floor:-
Is there a rule/law about breaking boss-worker confidentality?
she was included because she was also a department head like me and so apprently she should of been there as it would of effected the entire section of the company or that is the reason they gave me for her presence there.
I said ambush as I was made to belive it was just going to be a informal meeting between me and my boss and her boss not the majority of senior management it was hellish I was made to feel like I was in the wrong and was wasting everyones time etc
Sorry It was not included in update post didnt want to make it bigger than already was.
NSF thanks for that .Handy to know.I could be wrong I thought you could tape it for your own records but not use it in court.So obviously tribunal s are different .I so wish OP had taped it
Do they know the situation with your dad?
Not that it would be ok behaviour if they didn't but it just makes it soooo much worse.
WD that's quite ok here have some , &
some loats of
It was indeed an ambush and can be added to the list of ways they treated you badly/unfairly and majorly cocked this up!
My boss knows It was the first reason I gave why I was unwilling to cancel my annaul leave.
thanks Steam my DH has bought me my fav bottle of red wine ;) I promise I am only have 1 small glass for medical reasons
In any disciplinary hearing your company is obliged to provide you with formal notification of said hearing, a time scale and possible outcomes, and to also notify of your right to have someone you pick to be with you, be it a colleague or lawyer.
No one should have been in the meeting apart from the member of staff or management tasked with HR functions (if they don't have an HR person) and your line manager.
They are totally rubbish.
Take them to the cleaners. They will now be two staff down and it will be entirely their own fault for acting like utter dicks. Get the solicitor onto the case tomorrow. And do enjoy your trip as much as possible - you deserve it.
DPA also means you have the right to access all information in data form in which you are mentioned...so you have the right to the sadly lost emails. Happily for you you already have copies!
Well, if the taken-over company is looking for a new name, they should try Bellends plc.
I wouldn't start looking forward to a day in court (or at tribunal) tbh, as my guess is they will look to settle.
Was talking to an American banker the other day who was explaining cheerfully how much more US companies preferred being based on London to other European cities as there's far fewer annoying employment rights in the UK than in other countries. Hooray!
Sending and in support.
What a cock-up ! I know your can't say which company it is but sure makes me wonder if this is a company I would want to do business with......
Hope you have some good quality time with your Dad
joan obviously still too many for their liking.
I have a friend whose company has been taken over by a US firm and they are all having a miserable time. They are just being awful.
As others have said join a union asap.
You may be able to negotiate a reference as part of a settlement. Compromise agreements often have an approved reference that they have to provide
I know bugger all about law (and, I admit that freely!), but that seems like a really bad idea to me personally.
So they've now put themselves in the situation where your department is down one crucial person and is about to lose the other to maternity leave? And all because they seriously think you should lose £3000 for the privilege of not taking your holiday? These people are every single kind of stupid.
Why does it seem like a bad idea? I'd have thought it was fairly standard in compromise agreements.
I wouldn't compromise with a company that treated me badly, if they acted in a extremely stupid manner regarding my rights et cetera. Also if I was in the right, the settlement would "all that was owed or nowt".
Beside that, whatever work WD is or was in...the industry would get to hear about the real reason why OP was illegally sacked through no fault of her own.
Other than the above I thought we were here to give support.
A compromise agreement is simply the accepted term for a negotiated pay-off - the company agrees to pay X amount, provide a reference (often an enhanced one, above the usual basic disclosure), in some cases allows the individual to keep company-provided equipment (anything from phones up to company cars) and in return the individual waives their right to formal grievance / constructive dismissal / tribunal claims and agrees to keep their mouth shut - so no DM sadface stories afterwards. It's pretty standard, and the individual is advised to have it checked by a legal representative before signing. Nothing wrong in suggesting it here, if the OP decided that any financial settlement offered was sufficient to outweigh the stress of an ET.
OP, you've been shat on from a great height, and you don't need this on top of worrying about your dad. Good luck.
When I was paid off from a law firm I agreed to sign a Compromise Agreement. A reference was part of the package. They even paid my legal fees to get advice on the agreement.
This thread is MN at it's best.
Either the new owners are very stupid or this is a case of constructive dismissal.
Maybe they want to restructure the company.
The pregnant colleague should be very worried for her job too though obviously that is of no concern to op.
I know someone who was dismissed for gross misconduct from their �150k pa job for a �10 error in her expenses. The company was being restructured and it was cheaper to dismiss her than make her redundant.
They are ruthless.
Don't let them get away with this and good luck with finding a new job.
In a short time you will be happily settled in a great new job and this crap will be a distant memory.
Make sure the emails are backed up on a home computer not your work desktop just in case they block your log in details (I'm sure this is what you've done anyway).
Absolutely appalled by what has happened. Have no advice as I think it's all been given to you. However just wanted to offer emotional support and wish you the best if luck. I would not be surprised if you find they start to backtrack at some point, but please be strong and follow through with legal action.
Sheesh, I thought I had it bad! Thank goodness for Mumsnet and UK law.
I hope it's all sorted before your trip so you can relax and enjoy your time with your dad.
I'll keep watching for updates.
Please bear in mind that if they do offer you a settlement agreement, they have to give you ten days to consider it/run it past your solicitor. They cannot put it on the table and say it's now or never.
Please do try to forget it until you get back from your holiday. Use this time wisely to apply for other jobs and treat yourself kindly.
Sending you support. Can't add anything apart from your work colleagues sound really stupid. Print off the emails today and keep in folder in date order with other document ion. You are to go on holiday and forget all apart this (if you can). X
They have to pay for a solicitor to go through a settlement agreement with you.
If I were you I would also print off copies of all of the emails as an added back up!
So now no one is providing this "vital" cover?
OP. Please repost the details in a new thread in the Employment Issues section (or ask for this to be moved). There are a number of employment lawyers and HR experts on that board who will be able to assist you and this will help you prepare the grievance and to deal with the suspension/GM matter.
It is worth calling an employment lawyer and asking how much it would cost and if you can reclaim those costs in the settlement/outcome. I would expect that you could.
I would askt for this thread deleting OP. Agree that you should print it off first.
Enjoy your visit to see your dad and dont let these bastards spoil it.
You are right. They are oh so wrong.
A lawyer is going to really enjoy taking on this case. I've no doubt that they will secure you a satisfactory reference as part of the settlement.
Well done for keeping the emails.
I am appalled at how you have been treated!
Glad you've managed to protect yourself by keeping the emails. Bastards.
I love this thread. WorridMum, stick it to them. At the right time of course...
enjoy your holiday and spend some lovely time with your father.
"this section has the most traffic"
I never understand this. Why is lots of responses from a random selection of people better than a few measured, accurate responses from people who know the subject? That's not a criticism of you OP, it happens fairly frequently and it does confuse me.
Anyway, I note you have a lawyer, so I advise you to base any decisions you make purely on their advice, and not rely on anything in this thread.
Everyone here has been really supportive, and I'm really glad you've had such great support, but it is impossible for you to filter out which posts on this thread are useful/accurate/based on actual knowledge/experience, and which are not and unfortunately there are quite a few of the latter.
Just a thought, does your company offer an Employee Assistance Programme? If so, you may (regardless of being 'suspended') be able to access free legal advice through that.
I've had some shit thrown at me at work in the past (nothing on this level though,) which is why I went self-employed in the end. Now if someone pisses me off that's it, I won't work with them again.
The ambush tactic is pure workplace bullying no doubt about it.
From what you are saying (correct me if I am wrong) your colleague is still at work, when this thread started I thought she was already off and assumed it must be due to pregnancy complications.
Now I can see she is still working, and she just wants to start her leave early. People have already quoted the rules about that and I won't repost them, as I don't know what is accurate because I have never been pregnant.
What I personally believe (please don't flame me) is that pregnant women are virtually bullet proof at work. Your company needs one of you there and it's easier for them to try and bully you rather than her to work, because they know if they try it with your colleague they have little chance of winning if she takes legal action against them.
I haven't got time to read all this again but I think you mention (having) being quite friendly with your colleague. You can never have friends at work - trust me. A real friend wouldn't expect you to be £3000 down to accommodate her wanting to go off on leave early would they?
Slightly off topic.
but if you had been reimbursed and agree to cancel
and your dad had died in the time between holidays.
All so your colleague could get longed maternity.
Slightly off topic.
but if you had been reimbursed and agree to cancel
and your dad had died in the time between holidays.
All so your colleague could get longed maternity.
Slightly off topic.
but if you had been reimbursed and agree to cancel
and your dad had died in the time between holidays.
All so your colleague could get longed maternity.
Wow, I can't believe their response, they really are behaving in such a way that it leaves you no option but legal action.
Stories like this make me so glad that we have the employment laws that we do.
I hope that you have a wonderful holiday, find a much better job, and stick it to this company at a tribunal.
You colleagues and bosses are behaving incredibly badly. Well done for standing up to them. I'm so glad you have copies of all their e mails and have consulted a lawyer. They have totally underestimated you.
I can understand why you are worried but I think you would have ended up looking for a new job anyway in the near future as nobody wants to work for a company like yours.
I suspect that your pregnant colleague and bosses will all be looking for a new job soon as well..
Oh, I think you'll be able to string 'em up over this!
Crucial emails wiped due to a technical fault?
Ambushing you in a meeting and threatening you?
They are bullies and stupid to boot.
OP, you've handled it brilliantly.
How stupid are they? Now they have neither of you.
When are you off on your holiday OP?
God OP do NOT let this spoil your holiday! You are better off without these bastards and you will come out of it smelling of roses! Well done on backing the emails up!
My tuppence fwiw, OP, is that the law is now changed so that you HAVE to go via ACAS before tribunal who have 30 days to attempt to mediate a settlement, and they will do this without you incurring legal costs. If, after 30 days, you are still at stalemate, then you can prepare for tribunal. I would ring them today to get the ball rolling on this, making emotional trauma part of your case. You may be financially ok to wait until after your holiday, but if not get things moving now so that you don't spend another month unpaid after your holiday. IMO they have not a single leg to stand on and will cave pdq, but get as much prep done now so you can rest easy while you are away. Good luck, OP, they are wankers!
Blimey. I posted before and figured it nothing much might happen. Boy was I wrong. Glad to hear the lawyer helped, if nothing else than to explain it to a knowledgeable person.
I'm unsure I have more advice. Just hugs. So sorry. Makes you feel shit. Hope you're ok. Xxxx
Oh dear sounds horrendous and stressful for you OP. Hope it hasn't spoiled your time off.
Please do get in touch with ACAS - they are brilliant.
What LoodleDoodle described is Early Conciliation which people now have to do before they can lodge a claim at the Employment tribunal. Give Acas a bell and they will explain all. This might not have to cost you too much if they realise how weak their legal case is.
Well done op. What a bunch of cunts. Enjoy your holiday and seeing your family.
Thinking about it, that claim to have lost four days of emails has to be rubbish. Any big company will have a system in place for backing up emails offsite at least daily, and indeed it would be potentially disastrous for any business to have lost four days' worth of emails, orders etc with no possibility of retrieving them. This lot don't even seem to be very good at lying. If you do go to tribunal, demand copies of all emails mentioning you and covering the last month or so.
Wait for them to now to attempt to book a meeting in the middle of your leave.
I honestly can't believe this can happen. Absolutely shocking.
A friend of mine has recently been through something quite similar.
When he walked into the ACAS meeting with a lawyer and his evidence (saved emails etc) he said they FOLDED like a wet napkin. All their bravado, posturing, threats , evaporated in the blink of an eye.
He got almost 9 months salary and a glowing reference out of them not to take it to tribunal.
That's disgusting! It's their problem not yours. Don't back down!
Have you emailed them to say they are breaking the law to suspend you without pay ?
Why are they claiming they are suspending you
You know what op, you've got the three best things here...
You've got the moral high ground.
You've got the evidence of their bully tactics and incompetences.
And - you have the weight of mumsnet behind you!
At this rate, you might never need to work again!
Bastards! Good on you for standing you ground. It sounds like you have a strong case and they have fucked up massively. Agree with those who say to get the ball rolling before you go and see your dad. Hope you have a lovely time with him.
Shocking behaviour on their part. Sorry you are having to deal with this crap OP.
They even paid my legal fees to get advice on the agreement.
That's because they have to by law! They can't accept one without it and the onus is on them to pay for that service.
Hello OP. Am very late to this party but very much want to shove in my thoughts. Am not an HR but am v senior in a company and have a lot of experience in this stuff.
Firstly, they are unable to impose new T&C following a merger. TUPE is very clear on this. Your terms of employment must remain at a minimum of that which you originally contracted
Also, they must follow their own processes for managing a gross misconduct allegation. Those processes will be in the staff handbook. If they are faffing with T&C i sincerely doubt they have updated the procedures manual.
Contemporaneous notes and copies of emails are very powerful in a situation like this. They are usually the best evidence available and tribunals take them seriously. Keep notes of all conversations as well as everything you currently have.
Once this starts getting sticky and you look like you are going to fight it, they will do a risk analysis of the costs of tribunal vs paying you off. It is very rare that an employer has a bombproof case that makes tribunal a good idea. This will result in a negotiated compromise agreement / s111a settlement. This will also cover legal fees, reference wording, etc.
i notice that you are in a specialist field so make sure the compromise addresses any post employment restrictions that may exist.
From here on, do not move without your solicitor. They are your advocate and are there to handle whatever shit is now thrown. It will be messy and traumatic for you and feel very personal and hurtful. It isn't, it is the company trying to limit their downside risk. It is all in a days work for an employment lawyer and they have no personal connection. Let them answer everything on your behalf and don't get drawn in yourself. All communication should be considered as if it will one day be reviewed by a QC, because it might. Your solicitor will handle everything for you.
And as a final aside, I also work in a highly specialised and time pressured industry and we occasionally pull people back from holiday or ask them to cancel. We only do it as a last resort, we pay ALL costs (including the family still going, Dad being called back so we paid for a full additional holiday plus cover additional costs incurred in the original holiday like a friend going or needing taxis instead of hire cars, etc), compensate with double the leave days and send flowers to wives to say sorry. Sometimes it is truly necessary but it is a shit thing to do to your staff so we go above and beyond to compensate. Just a comparison.
Hope everything is going well!
just an update on everything
I have engaged the solicotor though they cannot cover me on a no win no fee basis they assured me that it is very very likely the costs could be reclaimed from the other side due to the numerous and blantant disregaurd for UK employment laws.
They have also recomended that I hold out and play the long game rather than settle for their first offer as they are very very unlikely to want to go to the tribunal as they know they will lose.
I have seen the GP about stress as this issue has been effecting my sleep from the worry of this whole thing.
My solicetor has been in touch with the company by informing them they are breaking the law with suspending me without pay (they have not replied about this topic)
They have said investigation is concluded and that the result is thatI am being dismassed for Gross misconduct for leaving the premiese without premission.
I have raised a offical greivence about both of the problems I have had with the company (solicetor said I had to do this for ACAS to start the ball rolling)
I have contacted ACAS about the situation and started the ball rolling on this front.
basically I think the companies legal team has kicked them into touch hence the manifactured gross misconduct for going awol and subsicantly deleted email telling me to leave (that solicetor said it was great that I backed these up as it will completly destory their case)
The lawyer has been asked to attepmt to include a good reference as part of any settlement (without it I wont be able to get the same level of employment in my field to is critical)
The lawyer has also drafted a letter stating all the breaches in UK employment law as she recomend that it will give us a good postion in any negiotation that will follow as it tells them will know exactly how naughty they have been in regaurds to the law (not her exact words I am paraphasing)
The company has been told to hold all communication via my lawyer on recomendation from my Brother as it will cut down their wriggle room apprently.
On the none legal side I am all packed to go on holiday now and feeling alot better for all the support advice everyone has given me and I thank you all from the bottom of my heart and I am so glad on just how supportive Mumsnet is and I will be recomending it to everyone in my social circle.
wow sorry everyone I did not realise just have essayish this update was
Have a wonderful time with your dear Dad.
It will work out well.
Have been lurking.Hope you manage to relax on holiday.Looking forward to hearing the comeuppance this horrible company end up getting.
Well done you for keeping so level headed and not letting them drag you down.
Hope you have some quality time with your dad.
its mostly thanks to the advice and support from Mumsnet that has allowed me not to be dragged down by all this and thank you both Helpys and Retropear for the best wishes
Hope you have a wonderful break, OP, and you really couldn't have handled this any better
It's hard to credit that they've been stupid enough to base this on your "leaving without permission" when you've actually got those emails. They really must be absolutely mad, but anyway that's their problem and the penalties they'll have to pay will be richly deserved
Your brother's quite right - on no account discuss anything with them yourself now, and DEFINITELY don't let them find out you have those emails
Just don't forget to update us on what happens!!!
Have a great break, hope your dad doesn't get too worn out with the excitement of seeing you!
Glad you went to your Gp. Enjoy your holiday.
I'm so sorry that this has happened to you, what absolute wankers.
Enjoy your holiday with your Dad and family and let your lawyer deal with all of the crap here.
I'd love to see their faces when they realise the emails are still in existence. Pricks.
Can you extend your holiday - now that you don't have the time-pressure of a job to,return to?
they really are stupid, aren't they? dismissing you for an 'offence' that supposedly occured after your 'informal meeting' without going through disciplinary procedures! ha ha!
You've handled this perfectly. Hope you have a wonderful holiday and make some wonderful memories with your dad. You'll come back energised to fight the bastards x
Wow... So by their own studipness, not only are they going to be screwed by no one being there for the maternity leave, but it is also going to cost them an absolute fortune
Hmm that is a good idea kif but I dont think I could afford new return tickets for me and the DC (DH has to return to work) and I would be needed to be in the country to sort of the legal case and job hunting plus the DC have summer camp that they are super duper excited about going on a highly righted science camp
though I could be evil and send the DC home with DH and have a child free time but in all fairness sadly I think it would be best to return at due date
Best of luck on holiday. I feel for you. I have had similar experiences myself.(though not nearly as bad!)
sadly my collague will not be able to go on leave early as planned now otherwise the department would have to cease operations until the temp (or more likely my replacement now) can start
If this wasn't true this thread would be hilarious for their stupidity and incompetence. I've done a little bit of employment law/HR training and they've pretty much cocked up at every opportunity.
Have a great holiday and definitely keep us updated, can't wait to hear how they react when they realise you've got copies of all their emails. I'd also look in to changing your flights and spending a bit more time with your dad now you don't have to rush back for work.
What an awful time you've had WM, hope that your solicitor gets this sorted for you. Hope that you can enjoy your holiday, thank goodness you have copies of those emails!
Thank you for the update. Seems like you have a watertight case.
Extraordinary behaviour from them. Cutting off their noses to spite their faces. Awful people. You are well rid.
I hope you enjoy your time with your dad.
Just saw your message about changing flights, worth a try!
Also don't worry about your colleague, if she's moving her mat leave forward by 2 months she must be struggling to handle pregnancy and work so her doctor will sign her off no problem. It's your boss who will end up in the shit, not her.
It's a shame about your colleague's missed early leave, but with the best will in the world it's honestly not your problem to sort out - she too works for these idiots and she'll have to work it out for herself
Which reminds me ... I don't know if you're still in touch, but if so, I'd avoid discussing this with her at all costs; you simply can't know what pressure might have been put on her and what her agenda might be
after the ambush and following emails I dont think I can concider her a freind anymore tbh as some of her emails and texts were spiteful and horrid so there is little chance I will be discussing any of this with her as she has successfully burnt all those bridges
Just de-lurking to add some good wishes and hope that the holiday does you all good.
What terrible employers, but you have handled all of this very impressively!
wow have a brilliant holiday and good luck with the jobhunting when you return.
Do return on your previously-agreed return date - it is entirely possible that while you are away their lawyers will knock some sense into them and you may return to an offer of reinstatement - obviously you would still be jobhunting as they are bastards that you wouldn't want to work for, but if they do this then it's possible that failing to return and not responding to such an offer would damage your eventual case against them (not sure whether this is true, just a guess)
Well done worriedmum for keeping it together!
DH and I are in a similar situation (similar as in Gross Misconduct, acas, lawyers etc) and it IS very stressful. And even when everything seems in your favour, it still makes you doubt yourself So, be prepared for a little bit more stress. BUT, put it on hold for now and enjoy your holiday, refresh and come back fighting. Don't let the bastards grind you down
Good grief. Amazed by this thread! Well done on staying so calm and standing your ground! So glad that you have a hot-shot lawyer fighting your corner for you now!
Definitely cut contact with your 'friend' until this is over. Her correspondence with you is part of the issue, so best not to discuss in case she's being pressurised to find out stuff from you
Enjoy your holiday, best wishes to your Dad
... there is little chance I will be discussing any of this with her as she has successfully burnt all those bridges
Very wise It's just that it occurred to me that, when they realise the mess they've got themselves into, they might persuade her to contact you on a fact finding mission, if you see what I mean?
Well done. Your ex colleagues have been incredibly stupid and very nasty. Your pregnant colleague is a snake in the grass and I have no sympathy for her regarding her maternity leave.
Enjoy your holiday and try not to worry too much. I'm sure everything will turn out well for you.
Hope you have a wonderful holiday !
You rock OP - I'm so delighted to read your update. I admire how you have handled this very much.
Have a great holiday and please update us on your return!!
Wow, you have been treated appallingly. Enjoy your break and let us know how it all goes when you get back. Good luck!
Well done worried mum you are amazing strong lady. You go and see your dad, forget about the b......... Return when you meant to as I suspect the b........ Will be eating humble pie by then. Xxx
Just a thought the snake in the grass friend she's not a mnetter is she as if due re baby she might become. X
Have a lovely holiday. Would love to be a fly on the wall when they realise you have backed up the emails.
I'm glad you've managed to get a solicitor and get some reassurance before going on your holiday. I hope you're able to put it all to the back of your mind whilst you're away.
I'm so pleased you didn't take this lying down op. They are such idiots for behaving the way they have.
Try to put it out of your mind for your holiday
They emailed you telling you to leave early.
Deleted it from your inbox.
sacked you for leaving early.
Lucky you got the email.
enjoy the holiday
A friend of mine worked for a firm backing up all the internal electronic communication. Apparently, there is a famous sexual harassment case where the former female employee claimed a male employee sent xyz on company email. Judge asks for email. Former female employee shrugs and says she deleted it (years now in court) but surely it's backed up by company and they can produce a
Company did not have backed up email more than 1 year.
Judge ruled in favour of ex employee, placing burden of proof on the company.
So really, you don't even need a copy of the emails.
You just need to state one was sent and the burden of proof is on the company to prove otherwise.
I can't believe a big company would act this way
They emailed you telling you to leave early.
Deleted it from your inbox.
sacked you for leaving early.
Lucky you got the email.
enjoy the holiday
Worried mum just checking you have printed off all the emails now havent you. Enjoy your holiday. I really miss I was a fly on the wall when the b..... Learn you printed the emails off. X
londonrach printed of AND backed up onto a penstick and my husbands back up drives (you can never have to many back up copies of ICT after what happened in university were 2 of my 3 back ups of my 20,000 word Thesis corupted and was only saved as I saved it on 3 sperate decives )
In my experience (I've seen this happen to a few people), the more the company has failed to follow their own procedures and follow employment law, the more likely they are to go on the attack and exaggerate or invent stories about the employee. Try not to take it personally, it's just a sign of their desperation.
I agree with the others saying be careful who you talk to in real life about this, for various reasons -protecting your case and also protecting your professional reputation. Also if you accept a compromise agreement, it likely has a clause about disclosing your story to others and sometimes talks retrospectively. Talking to your immediate family is to be expected of course.
I also urge you to reconsider moving this thread, or deleting it and starting another which has less story "they don't know I have the emails!" but would be useful for general support.
Hopefully now you have this solicitor it'll all become less stressful as you've someone reminding you that the company are talking nonsense.
Sorry, I haven't read all of this thread but they have treated you terribly Have you looked at your household insurance policy? I have legal protection as part of mine and I get free legal advice on employment issues. If they think that it's a good enough claim they will fund a solicitor.
I hope you're OK
What a bunch of bastards.
Good luck taking them to the cleaners OP.
Great worried mum. Now you enjoy your holiday with you dad. Xxx
another enjoy the hole from here. Royal fuck up from them . OP, when you mentioned your meeting with management included the new owner I sort of envisioned they were going to fuck up big time. Owner in a meeting like that means small company trying it on.
Hope the process isn't too arduous on your return.
They are SO fucked. Enjoy your holiday!
Have a great hol. And please come back and update us when you win!
Fantastic worried. The bastards, I hope you have a great holiday and take them to the cleaners. They deserve all they get with how they treated you, appealing!
Good on you for backing up e mails.
And enjoy the time with your dad, I wish him the best
YY Minty They have basically shafted themselves.
Enjoy your holiday and seeing your dad. Looking forward to the updates, looks like they've really fucked up!
I've been asked to cancel a holiday before. The company who I worked for at the time offered me some compensation which would have covered my out of pocket expenses and a bit more, but didn't take into account that I would also have to reimburse my sister who was going with me. Beside the point anyway because I told them to get knotted and they backed off.
OP I've heard some stories about bad treatment at work but this beats all of them. I have found that new bosses or takeovers usually bring bad behavior on, but I can't believe that people can be so ignorant of employment law.
I don't what current settlements are in this kind of case? You say you work for a small company - this could wipe them out and the owners deserve it too.
Job well done, worriedmum and mumsnet advisers.
Best wishes for your hols, I hope you can put this to the back of your mind while you're with your dad
Have a lovely holiday too - I'd really love to know the end result of all this. I find it all incredible to be honest.
Do they know they would lose at a tribunal do you think?
It depends if they know about the copies of the emails.
Best wishes to you for your trip.
Have a great trip. I have been reading this thread as it has developed with my eyebrows nearly touching the ceiling; hope you get a nice payout - they sounds like total knobs.
Have been keeping up with this and can't believe how you've been treated. Enjoy your holiday x
I don't believe any company would do this. It's nuts.
Just going to unlurk to wish you a lovely holiday. Really glad you are getting to see your dad. Relax. .you will be all the better to manage it after your break & it will give them time to stew.
I can absolutely believe things like this happen. I would have doubted previously but, going through similar at present, sadly I know it goes on.
Enjoy your holiday. I'm sure you'll get a job with a much nicer company and the payout will pay for some more trips to see your dad.
It's shitty going on holiday with work shit hanging over you. Been there.
I keep popping back to see if the OP's returned from holiday. Hope it was good, and she is able to sort out this horrible treatment easily and satisfactorily.
Me too. I hope she had a good hol
I'm sure she did - it'll be returning to work that's the issue! Assuming she still has a job.
Welcome home/good luck, OP!
Oh I was thinking about this one today. I hope OP and her dad are OK and had a good time!
Good luck OP, update when you can and hope you had a lovely holiday.
Just came late to this thread. What bastards they have been to you. I hope you had a great holiday and things are resolved on the work front.
Just seen this thread, can't wait for an update in a few months when you are awarded huge amounts of compensation!
Hope you've managed to put it to one side as much as you can go enjoy your holiday.
Good luck with the road ahead.
I do hope you had a lovely holiday and are well compensated by your dreadful employer.
What a bunch of cocklodging arsebadgers.
Hope you've had a brilliant holiday and spent some quality time with you Dad. xxx
Your boss sounds completely unreasonable. I would not give up your holiday, even if it meant the sack, you only get one Dad.
How was your holiday OP?
Hope that you have enjoyed your holiday OP and can't wait for you to kickass at the company.
can someone send the OP a PM?
ask them to come back -
I'd love to know what happened next
Hello Everyone Sorry for the massive delay with the update to my thread everything has been up in the air and massively hetic and stressful but thankfully my father is doing as well as could be expeted and the holiday was enjoyed by all espically by my father having all his grandchildren around and was alot less stressful as it was one massive village effort with everyone pitching in etc.
Now the less happy news.
Firstly there has been massive amounts of backward and forward between my lawyer and the companies lawyers. They first basically offered me nothing other the standard package of someone being fired (I think notice pay and thats it). My lawyer said no and started the negotating game where they consistally denied doing any wrong doing and that what they offered was all I was going to get.
after laywer informed finally them of all the laws they have broken and the evidence of said law breaking they furously started back tracking and basically said could have me job back and full pay up til now (Fat chance am going back to work for them so they can concoct another and more watertight excuse to fire me)
after this rejection they basically kept going back to my lawyer with better and better offers until we currently stand at 2 years full pay and maxium level of bonus for my level +my legal costs paid and a glowing reference.
I am most likely going to accept this offer (if I can get them to sign a contract where if they dont give a truthful glowing reference I can get them on breach of contract under advise from lawyer and they have proven untrustworthy without ironclad documents)
The only condistion they want is that I dont go to the media and spill the details (I am thinking the unbrialla company wants to asborb another high profile company and doesnt want bad press or massive public outcry) which is fair enough I dont want to be seen as attempting to blackmail them.
So is the latest offer accpetable or amazing good like it appears to be on paper (I am not sure on the level of compensation I would be untiled to upon these level of breahes and lawyer basically saying that there isnt a set guideline to payouts and each case is dealt with on indivual cases.
Thank you everyone for your help and support in dealing with all this and for suggesting I get legal advice + for suggesting backing up emails which were one of the most damning pieces of evidence I had agaisnt them.
So thanks again everyone
ps sorry again about spelling and grammer and the sheer lenght of this post and for how long it took for me to update
Glad it's gone we'll and your dad is as well as can be expected
Please get this deleted. From what you've said about going to the media I worry they will be searching for anything to pin on you
2 years sounds good! (Disclaimer - I know nothing about this sort of area!)
Hope you can put it all behind you soon.
Glad your holiday worked out well
Re their offer - what does your solicitor say? They seem to have done a good job so far so I would be tempted to let them guide me here. Unless someone comes on here with a better story
Agree it sounds good. Do get thread deleted - you can start another with fewer details if you want?
I'd take the offer! 2 years pay plus bonus and reference?! Sounds perfect x
Take the offer and get this thread deleted. Good luck for the future!
Glad it has worked out. I think that sounds pretty amazing actually. I'd take it if I were you.
Yeah, get thread deleted.
Delighted for you, that is great outcome.
I agree with the others, this thread needs to disappear - now.
You must must must delete your post now.
But other than that, yes, and good luck.
Hope you don't mind, but I reported the thread saying it needs to be deleted.
Well done OP! Good on you for standing up for yourself and not letting them bully you
Brilliant news OP. Shame this thread has to be deleted as it is inspiring.
I just read this through. Gobsmacked!
Bloody well done OP. But I agree, get it deleted ASAP.
Well done OP. what happens about your legal fees?
delighted that it's worked out -that's a brilliant settlement with which to start afresh somewhere else. thanks for the update. please get the thread deleted asap in case it scuppers everything - you can get mnhq to put that there was a happy resolution in the deletion message.
Excellent news op. Just wanted to say that before this thread gets deleted as it now should. Xxx
Sounds like a good offer. See if the wording of the reference can be agreed now. A friend of mine was being made redundant, she actually wrote her own reference so that she was happy with it.
So glad you had a good holiday and fingers crossed they stick to their word x
Glad it's worked out for you!
Now, onward and upward.
Good news about your dad too.
Thanks for the update op. I have no experience of this sort of thing but the settlement sounds good to me. Good luck for the future! (And delete this thread)
Only just read this with a face most of the way through! Good luck op with your future & please please MN delete this thread!
I don't get why everyone is insisting the thread is deleted?
Have been lurking all the way through. Glad it's worked out OP
Glad this has been resolved, what a bunch of idiots, hope you find something with a decent company
This is fantastic news OP, brilliant result.
It is stressing me out that thread is still here due to conditions on settlement, delete it quickly!
MostlyMama, I guess the calls for deletion relate to the 'gagging' condition in the offer. Anyone connected with the OP, whether in the workplace or a malicious friend, could easiy identify the OP and spill the beans to the media who would then harass the OP and print details, negating the offer.
I agree with others - take it and delete the thread! Great news
Make sure the agreement is written so that "don't go to the media" specifically starts from the date you sign it.
You don't want them to start arguing this thread constitutes "going to to the media" (if it somehow hangs around or people remember it) and claiming you've breached the contract.
For the same reason, perhaps copy off the thread before deletion? In case you have to prove dates? Sounds extreme, but...
To be fair, the company is not identifiable to anyone outside of it and who doesn't know the details of your case already.
Before this disappears, did you discover what happened after you left? They must have been a bit stuffed with you gone and your colleague on maternity leave?
Great result, I'd love to have been a fly on the wall when their lawyer realised just how unlawfully they'd been behaving and how careless they'd been about leaving evidence and then trying to destroy it. And even more when he told them they were bound to lose if you claimed.
Very wise advice, Parsing.
Yeah, keep a copy of the thread and make sure the gagging clause is from the date of signing. Just in case.
Maximin payout for unfair dismissal is around 65000 (unless its related to discrimination when it's higher but I don't think this is)...so sounds like a good deal!
Good advice re thread and date of gagging order...
OP - please make your solicitor aware of this thread.
By doing that they can ensure that any gagging order that you sign comes into effect AFTER your last post in this thread.
Even if the thread is deleted (Come on MNHQ, chop chop) your employers MAY already have a copy which they could produce at the last minute to invalidate any payouts.
Full disclosure to your solicitor is vital.
Take the deal, delete the thread just to be safe.
Well done OP that's a really good outcome! I agree with getting the thread deleted. It will be a shame but it's definitely wise!
I hope you find a new job but for now enjoy the break!!
Just wanted to say well done OP before the thread goes xx
Really chuffed you stood your ground and stuck to your guns. Even happier your company has had to pay the price as perhaps they'll treat their workers as they lawfully deserve to be treated.
That's such great news!!
I really can't see anything identifiable on this thread. Your employers would have a job proving it was you as you didn't mention the company or job.
I am kind of curious what you do that is so unique though. Intriguing!
Great thread and I'm so impressed with the advice and support offered to the OP. hard to see why any company would treat people so badly and I'm glad OP is going to be recompensed.
Soon time for this all to disappear? Can't see any way in which company has been identified though.
Congratulations OP! That settlement should set you up for a fantastic future. I wish you well. You deserve it.
glad to hear your father is ok and you had a a good holiday
sounds like a good settlement, I hope it is all sorted out quickly for you
Well done OP! Great news! I hope your solicitor knows about the thread and puts in that it comes into effect after the signing of the contract and I hope the thread goes soon.
Doesn't matter, you look at the date of the gag order, and the dates on the thread. They can only count what you say after the gag.
But yes, I would show your lawyer this thread. They can't do anything to you since you didn't list the company, and you did it before the gag. But it's good to get it on record before hand so they can't do anything sneaky.
Agree the exact wording of the reference and get the full text put in your agreement. I think 2 years sounds fine, but I don't know what field you work in and I'd only accept if you can realistically find work in the same field at the same level within two years. I know in my job I wouldn't realstically be able to so I'd be up the swanny by the time the money ran out,
Hello again I have already shown my lawyer the thread she said aslong as I dont name people by name and or identify myself or the company they can do nothing against me for this thread but she said that i must not mention anywhere the names that the company owns as that will also breach the order but as it stands the thread is fine as the company cannot prove it is me posting about their company as no names have been mentioned but she did reitarate that I should not go into more dpeth than I have already have done.
So any gag order that we will sign will be on after the date of the thread so they cannot play any dirty tricks
And thank you again everyone for all their support and advice I would most likely not be in the postion I am today without you all
finney I can find work in my field at the same level but only with the relevent reference and proof of experance (without the reference I would be scuppered as I would not be able to prove my abilties or postion without)
Dont get me wrong I wont be able to walk into a job tomorrow but I will be able to get somewhere in the field with the reference even if I have to go to USA or withn the mainland EU
Wishing you all the best I am glad you came back to let everyone know what happened.
OP - That's good news however I would still chase MNHQ and ask them to delete the thread, just in case someone tries to "out" you.
I'm very aware of Vicarinatutu being cruelly "outed" a few days ago.
Congratulations OP. A horrible outcome to your job, but superb result in the circumstances.
Your solicitor will be on this but make sure you get £30k of the non contractual bit tax free! It'll be in the compromise wording.
So glad to hear it turned out well and yes, I would accept the 2 years pay as a reasonable result.
I hope one of those bastards loses their job over what they put you through at such a difficult time.
Vicarinatutu was outed?!
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
Seek advice about tax payable.
Some excellent advice above, for example:
The wording of the reference is to be agreed now and they are to be contractually obliged not to deviate from it.
So any gag order that we will sign will be on after the date of the thread so they cannot play any dirty tricks - not quite. The relevant clause must state that confidentiality applies as of the date of the agreement but you are not bound for disclosures before that date.
Get the thread deleted. It's not to do with breaching confidentiality. It's about your (soon to be) ex-employer handing over the agreed reference and, maliciously, including a link to this thread to give the impression that you're willing to bad-mouth your employer on the Web.
Top result. Well done.
Well done you.
Mn will delete the thread if you ask nicely.
Late to this thread. Glad you fought your corner, what utter shits you worked for!
Agree better safe than sorry re this thread.
Dear worridmum, have been an extremely long time lurker on this thread, so having just seen your update have one word for you:
Utterly fantastic news (and great news about your dad as well!) x
I'm so happy you received help on here. Though it still boggles my brain to think what people are put through in some work places. I dread to think what happens to people who are unable to stick up for themselves.
Well done OP for persevering.
Thank you for updating.
Sounds like a good deal.
It's lovely when an OP has the chance to come back. Best of luck to you and good on you for fighting this x
De lurking to say great result. Sorry you had to go through it though.
Cor, I just found this thread. I do some transcription work for an employment lawyer and it astounds me what some companies think they can get away with.
That deal your solicitor has nutted out for you sounds pretty good
All the best for the future. Have you talked to MN about deleting this thread?
I just read the update and would strongly advise that you get this deleted.
You don’t want all your good work undone...
Join the discussion
Registering is free, easy, and means you can join in the discussion, get discounts, win prizes and lots more.Register now
Already registered with Mumsnet? Log in to leave your comment or alternatively, sign in with Facebook or Google.
Please login first.