AIBU to be upset that dentist took the wrong tooth out?

(96 Posts)
AllDirections Tue 03-Jun-14 10:40:23

Just had a horrible experience with DD2 (13) at the dentist. She was due to have 4 baby teeth removed on one side and then another 4 on the other side in a few weeks time. The dentist came into the room and didn't even know what we there for until he spoke to his assistant. He then suggested that he take all 8 teeth out which we agreed to.

DD2 had lots of injections and then he started removing teeth. I stopped him a couple of times when she obviously in severe pain and he gave her more injections. The whole thing was very traumatic, DD2 was distraught and the dentist refused to continue at one point and gave us 5 minutes alone. She nearly threw up (which has happened before) and then he carried on but he took out a tooth that the orthodontist wanted leaving in as the big tooth underneath is no good.

His rather arrogant attitude changed immediately and I could see the panic in his face. He asked if we wanted him to continue which of course we did otherwise DD2 would have had to go through it all again. He got his assistant to come back in and rechecked which teeth he still needed to remove. He mentioned to her that there would be no point trying to reimplant the tooth.

When it was over he kept asking if I wanted to talk about his mistake or make an appointment to talk about it or let the orthodontist deal with it. I just wanted to get D2 out of there so I said to let the orthodontist sort it out later. If he'd had a nice attitude throughout then I wouldn't be quite so upset but I think his arrogant manner and his lack of attention to detail caused his mistake. I'm really shaken up by watching what DD2 just went through so I'm not thinking clearly. I don't know whether to leave it or to make a complaint and I don't know who to complain to!

CoffeeTea103 Tue 03-Jun-14 10:43:33

Yanbu, your poor dd. I do think you should complain, sorry I'm not sure who to though.

scarletforya Tue 03-Jun-14 10:43:46

I would go ballistic. Yanbu.

SomethingAboutNothing Tue 03-Jun-14 10:46:32

That is disgusting behaviour for a dentist and you need to complain. If it was nhs then contact their complaints team who should guide you through the process. Your poor dd sad

APlaceInTheWinter Tue 03-Jun-14 10:49:48

Definitely complain!

I'd be writing three letters:
1) If there is a more senior dentist in the practice then complain to them.
2) Send a letter of complaint to the dentist who made the mistake. Tell him you are also taking the complaint further
3) If you are in the UK, you can also complain to the General Dental Council. They help to maintain standards.

tbh I would't complain about his attitude (as that's subjective) but I would complain about him appearing rushed, not knowing enough about the patient, changing the planned procedure (from removing 4 to removing all 8 at the same time), and then removing a tooth by mistake.

orangepudding Tue 03-Jun-14 10:50:02

That's awful, your poor DD.

You certainly need to complain.

orangepudding Tue 03-Jun-14 10:50:47

www.nhs.uk/chq/pages/1777.aspx?categoryid=74&subcategoryid=742 some details of where you can complain.

AllDirections Tue 03-Jun-14 10:55:01

We definitely won't be going back to that dentist again. DD2 seems to be recovering well but who knows what extra dental treatment she might need to compensate for his mistake. She has enough dental issues to deal with anyway.

I'm in a real state but trying to keep it together for DDs sake. I'm not normally emotional but I could really sob after watching all that happen.

NiceCupOfTeaAndAPartyRing Tue 03-Jun-14 10:55:37

YADNBU!!! Poor dd, hope she's feeling ok now at least.
You should definitely complain. Was it NHS or private?

AllDirections Tue 03-Jun-14 10:59:36

It was NHS so I will definitely complain. Thanks for the info APlace and the link Orange.

He is the senior dentist there, he might be the only fully qualified one actually. His assistant is lovely and the previous appointment was with her. His staff all seem scared of him.

CiderLover Tue 03-Jun-14 11:03:13

contact the person responsible for the practice complaints procedure

Mordirig Tue 03-Jun-14 11:07:12

YADNBU
However I am quite surprised that he thought 8 teeth in one go was suitable, I had 4 out in one go at 12yrs old before a brace was fitted and it was agony. Your poor DD sad

Gobbolinothewitchscat Tue 03-Jun-14 11:09:40

My DH is a dentist. There should be a complaints procedure so I would phone the practice and ask for a copy of that. I would assume that there is a practice manager - they will deal with the complaint. It all sounds horrible.

The GDC will generally not consider a complaint until the complaint has been dealt with by the practice so best you send the complaint there first and given them a chance to investigate and respond.

I'm a bit confused about this as my reading of this is he only removed baby teeth? I am absolutely not a dentist and don't have any specialist dental knowledge. However, do you know why the orthodontist was advising that a baby tooth stayed in? It would always have fallen out in any event, eventually, whatever the condition of the tooth to come through. So that baby tooth wouldn't have been permanent

BecauseIsaidS0 Tue 03-Jun-14 11:09:46

8 teeth in one session is pure madness. I had six removed for my orthodontics and they did two sessions of three, and that was pretty horrid.

LangenFlugelHappleHoff Tue 03-Jun-14 11:11:50

This might sound odd but book another appointment with another dentist soon just for a check over.

mainly because as a child I had a bad experience with adentist and ddidn't go back for a long time. Now I'm terrified of all dentists and it is a huge problem every time I need even the smallest thing done.

Good luck with the complaint, obviously your/dds treatment was not on and it needs to be looked into.

LangenFlugelHappleHoff Tue 03-Jun-14 11:12:01

Sorry about the

LangenFlugelHappleHoff Tue 03-Jun-14 11:12:16

Typos..

Gobbolinothewitchscat Tue 03-Jun-14 11:15:51

8 teeth in one session is pure madness. I had six removed for my orthodontics and they did two sessions of three, and that was pretty horrid.

I just can't work out what happened re appointment times etc. as I have said above, I am absolutely not a dentist and have no specialist knowledge but I know that DH quite often refers children who need large numbers of extractions. But I don't know.

Plus, the guy must have booked at least, what, an hour out of his book to do this. So why was he confused as to what DD was there for?

AllDirections Tue 03-Jun-14 11:16:36

It was a baby tooth that was removed accidentally. DD1 (17) still has a baby tooth because there is no big tooth underneath. DD2 has the tooth underneath but on the Xray you can see that it hasn't formed properly. That's why the orthodontist wanted it leaving in. DD2's baby teeth are solid, they just won't come out even though she has most of her adult teeth already. So that baby tooth probably would have stood the test of time. But now it's gone sad

AllDirections Tue 03-Jun-14 11:18:35

We were there for 30 mins Goblin

Gobbolinothewitchscat Tue 03-Jun-14 11:20:44

So that baby tooth probably would have stood the test of time. But now it's gone

Oh that's awful - poor you and poor DD. I really feel terrible for you both.

Just thinking about this, I think I would actually try and go to the orthodontist ASAP if I were you. I would ask him/her to give you (if you don't have it) a copy of his correspondence with the dentist where presumably he/she pointed this all out. Then, in your complaint, you can refer to that letter and enclose a copy

It might also make you both feel a bit better if you could discuss options with the orthodontist now.

AllDirections Tue 03-Jun-14 11:22:17

When the dentist came into the room he was asking DD2 how he could help and what we were there for. At first I thought he was just making conversation but it became obvious that he really didn't know. It should have rung alarm bells but I was too busy trying to make sure DD2 was ok. Bloody hell, I've really failed her. I feel like shit

Gobbolinothewitchscat Tue 03-Jun-14 11:25:37

all. No. You haven't. You're perfectly entitled to assume that a professional know what they are doing. You musn't think that you have.

You can really help with the aftermath now though. Do you think you could call the orthodontist now? I would really hope they might see you today so you can talk through what has happened and look at options etc

Crikey that's awful, your poor daughter and poor you

I do think you should take this further, it sounds horrendous all ways round

SistersOfPercy Tue 03-Jun-14 11:41:36

Eight in one go is way too many and dentist should never have agreed to that. Having two out is traumatic enough leaving you bruised and sore for days but eight? I feel for her I really do. She'll feel battered and bruised tomorrow I'll bet. I'd stock up on painkillers for her op.
Poor kid.

orangepudding Tue 03-Jun-14 11:43:35

You haven't failed your DD, the dentist failed her. He should have looked at her notes before starting treatment,

AllDirections Tue 03-Jun-14 12:09:00

I didn't realise that having 8 teeth removed at once was too many, I just thought it must be a viable option since the dentist suggested it. I wish I hadn't agreed but I was just thinking that we wouldn't have to repeat the whole thing in a few weeks. And it was 9 in the end, which is even worse!

BrianTheMole Tue 03-Jun-14 12:11:02

Oh my god, your poor dd. you must complain.

SueDNim Tue 03-Jun-14 12:17:08

If your DD needs additional treatment to fill the gap (eg an implant) then he will need to claim on his insurance to pay for it (and don't accept having just anyone do extra work, demand the best).

isabellavine Tue 03-Jun-14 12:22:37

Your poor DD! I would be traumatized as a result of that. I am sure she should not have been in such pain that she was almost sick. Poor little mite.

I had a wonderful dentist as a child. Even though I had to have quite a lot of work, he never hurt me and was always so careful. I grew up with no fear of going at all, and simply couldn't understand why anyone would dread it. It was only as an adult that I realised how rough and uncaring some dentists are, and how crap their standard of work is. I am no expert but I cannot believe that it is necessary to cause people physical pain.

BeckAndCall Tue 03-Jun-14 12:48:09

Your poor DD and poor you.

From a procedure point of view, this is what is called a Never event in the NHS and falls under the category of wrong site surgery.

What the densit should have done by now is to record it on the untoward incidents database and reported it to the CCG. Although dentists are autonomous practitioners, the care they give is commissioned by the CCG so the final overview of care rests with them. For every 'never event' there is an investigation called a 'root cause analysis' where they go over what happened and then try to learn lessons. Under the new duty of care, they should tell you this is happening.

I suggest you write down for your our benefit the sequence of events, with timings, with what you remember about who looked at X-rays and when etc, as the details will get muddled in your mind as time goes on.

Your formal route is to follow the formal complaints procedure, which is the best way to ensure that you get responses back appropriately and to ensure that your complaint is lodged ' in the system'. You don't have to do this immediately, as you may want to just take a day or so to feel less shocked by the whole thing. Hence why i suggest writing everything down now.

hennybeans Tue 03-Jun-14 12:48:53

I have a similar problem to your DDs in that I have some molars with no adult teeth underneath. I had one removed in my early 20s from decay and the other removed 2 yrs ago (at 33). The gap has closed a lot from the first molar so it's not so obvious, but the recently removed molar has left a very unsightly gap and I'm going to get an implant next month. The implant is costing £1800.
Please see if your DD is suitable for an implant where tooth was accidentally removed (maybe ask orthodontist) and then make dentist pay for it! It's really difficult to eat some foods with a missing tooth on either side (my mouth) and looks really terrible. The dentist obviously knew he made a mistake and an implant is the least he can do (doesn't even touch covering the hassle and pain of having extra tooth removed and implant put in).

isabellavine Tue 03-Jun-14 12:50:55

Beckandcall - it would definitely be a never event with adult teeth, but I am not sure if it's the same with baby teeth (because they are replaced)?

Pinkelephanty Tue 03-Jun-14 13:14:34

I really feel for you. I had to have 8 baby teeth out when I was younger but I was put to sleep for it. I had a tooth out last year and it was horrible, I was shaking after. I also have a baby tooth still (in my 30s) and recently found out my big tooth is up in my gums mixed up in my nerves and that's why it never came through! I would be very cross if a dentist had pulled this tooth out as it would leave a gap at the front of my mouth.

I'd be complaining big time. The idea that he walked in there, didn't pay attention and made such a stupid and avoidable mistake is unforgivable.

AllDirections Tue 03-Jun-14 13:20:09

Gobbolino When you say that your DH refers children who need large numbers of extractions, can you clarify what actually happens then please?

At the previous appointment I'd asked the assistant (who did the appointment) if DD2 could be referred and was given lots of reasons as to why that wasn't a good idea.

SadOldGit Tue 03-Jun-14 13:30:51

Definitely complain. DD2 is currently undertaking treatment (not sure if all down to dental hygiene or something else as other children never had problems.)

She had emergency appt with our NHS dentist as she had abscess - he declared at least 4 extractions and some fillings and referred to hospital care - initial plan was for extraction under GA however she is now being seen by specialised NHS team (hospital based) Wonderful team - initial filling without a hitch and today went back for filling and one extraction. Actual dental care went well (sight hitch as DD fainted afterwards - already under hospital care for that!) Dental staff were fab and made sure she was fully recovered by the time we left.

She has a series of appts to complete the treatment required as this dentist felt a "softly softly" approach would be best - and whilst DD is missing a bit of school (hour today) she is not suffering, not had to have a GA and most importantly has not been traumatised (apart from faint) at all

SadOldGit Tue 03-Jun-14 13:33:07

X posted - we were referred to our local special care dental service not sure what criteria is but can't recommend enough - would love this dentist for all of us, she is fab

Did he give you a reason for the inability to re implant it? Did he crush it during the extraction or is it because of the underlying adult tooth? confused

Gobbolinothewitchscat Tue 03-Jun-14 14:13:32

all. No bother. Will ask him tonight. Think he'll be ok with giving an answer as it's not actual advice.

I think it is either to the hospital for removal under GA or the other option is the community dentist who specialises in treating children/elderly etc. but I will check

The other thing I would say is that I definitely second writing everything down now as logically as possible. I'm a lawyer and, when you are taking witness statements, it is amazing to see how quickly memories can become confused/fade - even regarding quite seminal events.

Use your narrative for the complaint letter and definitely try and get a copy of the letter from the orthodontist. You want to see exactly what he has said re what teeth should be removed/retained and the reasons for that. It will also help frame your complaint and your proposed resolution as one issue that the dentist may raise is what the actual long term prognosis for that tooth was - I.e. How long could DD have reasonably expected to retain it.

FabULouse Tue 03-Jun-14 14:59:53

It's a 'never event' because it represents an erroneous deviation from the planned work.

Wabbitty Tue 03-Jun-14 15:02:15

Baby teeth do not "stand the test of time". They can fall out at any stage during adulthood even if the adult tooth isn't present.(They are also a lot more prone to decay) However you have said the adult tooth was present, so WTF was the orthodontist thinking? The adult tooth, no matter how poorly formed, unless badly positioned would have tried to errupt and loosened the baby tooth so it would have been lost anyway.
Also 8 (or even 9) is not too many on a 13 year old. The teeth naturally fall out at around the age of 12 so would probably have been very loose and just flicked out (which sounds very likely if he only took 30 minutes).

wentshopping Tue 03-Jun-14 15:15:08

Similar to pp above, I had two molars with no adult teeth underneath. As a child my dentist did not fill them when some decay started "because they were baby teeth and will fall out". I have just had one replaced with an implant, the other is still there, with a filling or two. I am 47. They can last a pretty long time. To mirror my non-appearing molars I have two not-completely formed teeth on the top - my other teeth closed up around them so they are not very noticeable, but it has been suggested to me that I could get either built up to make it look more regular-looking. There are also veneers, but I am not sure how popular they are nowadays. So maybe when adult tooth comes through, it could be used as the basis of cosmetic work (i.e. building it up etc) and an implant considered if not.

ThatBloodyWoman Tue 03-Jun-14 15:19:55

I would be both following the formal complaints procedure and seeking legal advice.

Wabbitty Tue 03-Jun-14 15:20:25

Also CCG groups do not apply to dentistry

I have a retained baby tooth as well and its lasted over 40 years so far, so some of them stand the test of time albeit with some fillings needed.

AllDirections Tue 03-Jun-14 15:38:56

Wabbity The baby teeth that already had an adult tooth in front or behind came out easily but the others (about 5) did not come out easily and it was all very traumatic. They were so solid in her gums that a few months ago the dentist prescribed toothpaste to strengthen them just in case there were no adult ones underneath.

The adult tooth that hasn't formed properly looks like it's on it's side in the Xrays so maybe it isn't going to grow in the right direction. As wentshopping has shown, that baby tooth could have lasted a long time.

Pumpkin I don't know why the tooth couldn't be implanted. The dentist wasn't talking to me, it was all very quietly addressed to his assistant.

I'm starting to feel more angry now than upset though DD2 is coping well. She's had lots of TLC and a Costa milkshake and is worrying about whether she'll be able to eat a McDonalds on Friday when she's out with her granddad smile

DameDiazepamTheDramaQueen Tue 03-Jun-14 15:45:57

But the baby tooth would've come out naturally any time, wouldn't it as wabbity says?confused

Baby teeth at 12 are hanging on by a thread usually, aren't they? Not like 8 adult extractions in one go.

LemonSquares Tue 03-Jun-14 15:47:10

I have baby teeth still - very late 30's. Adult teeth not there - its a gene from my Mums family according to my childhood dentist.

As a teenager an orthodontist suggested having them removed and a brace to move the teeth to cover gap - my parents said no. As an adult I've been told when they do go it will be a small bridge.

I also had baby teeth removed - the adult teeth come in behind and they wouldn't budge - but it was only 4.

I would seek an urgent appointment with the orthodontist - implants might be needed but it possible that braces that move the remaining teeth round could also be possible. You need expert advice there.

Also I'd be complaining about the dentist.

YANBU - it shouldn't have happened.

Gobbolinothewitchscat Tue 03-Jun-14 15:51:10

Um...I just spoke to DH who seems to think caveated massively that the orthodontist's approach seemed quite unusual so definitely worth speaking to him/her to find out exactly what they said to the dentist re treatment and retaining a baby tooth.

Then, obviously, put the complaint in. However, it might be worth, before you complain, just making an appointment to speak to the dentist once you've spoken to the orthodontist to discuss matters generally because something seems just not quite right between what the dentist and the orthodontist have been saying. If you're not happy, then obviously put in a formal complaint. At the end of the day, you and your DD are upset and that needs discussed, even if there's no liability.

Re referring - really depends on your DD's feelings etc but 13 is at the older end and presumably her teeth would have been loosish given her age so that might have been the reason for the dentist doing so many today and doing it himself.

Apparently the CCG protocols don't apply to dentists in general practice so don't expect that to be followed.

Anyway, I think there are quite a lot of dentists on here so hopefully one might turn up and give their thoughts after reading everything

LemonSquares Tue 03-Jun-14 15:54:04

They were so solid in her gums that a few months ago the dentist prescribed toothpaste to strengthen them just in case there were no adult ones underneath.

DD1 is 8 and the can already tell on x-ray if there is an adult tooth below - they had to check as one of her baby molar teeth was sinking into the gum and given my history they wanted to know if adult one is there. It showed up on the x-ray so they know it there though it won't erupt for a few years.

Seems bit odd at 12 they don't know if the adult ones are there - I'm sure that about that time they realised I wouldn't have all my adult teeth as well again confirmed by x-rays.

Not that I'm a dentist and know what I'm talking about - just struck me as very odd.

Gobbolinothewitchscat Tue 03-Jun-14 15:55:13

They were so solid in her gums that a few months ago the dentist prescribed toothpaste to strengthen them just in case there were no adult ones underneath.

This is a bit confusing too. Apparently an X-ray would show if there were adult teeth present or not

Anyway, I really think the best thing is to speak to the dentist and orthodontist as we're all surmising wildly and DH is just giving a general opinion - so not very useful!

Gobbolinothewitchscat Tue 03-Jun-14 15:57:08

Think I've been cross posting madly with wabbity and lemon!

Hope your DD feels better soon flowers

AllDirections Tue 03-Jun-14 15:57:25

Baby teeth at 12 are hanging on by a thread usually, aren't they?

Usually yes, but not in DD2's case which is the whole problem with her teeth. That baby tooth that shouldn't have been taken out was massive as were some of the others that were removed.

When she got her first two adult teeth (top 2 at the front) they grew fully and loosened the baby teeth. But the baby teeth still wouldn't fall out. They ended up horizontal and she had to have them removed when she hadn't been able to close her mouth for a week. 5 injections that time and that's when she actually did throw up sad

Poor dd! What an awful experience for all of you. I'm glad Beck and Call has explained the NHS procedures.

Baby teeth may well normally fall out but in some people, as you can see by this thread, it's more complicated. My sister still has one 'baby tooth' and she's now 40.

At any rate, the dentist should not have removed any individual tooth that was not planned without a good reason. He should have explained why he was changing the plan to take all eight out there and then, and what the benefit was, and what any risks were. She should not have been in pain. The whole saga seems full of errors and stages where things went wrong.

I'm sorry it's all been so traumatic and that the dentist was so irresponsible. Do please make a formal complaint - at any rate, write everything down now while it's fresh in your mind. Dd may possibly need further treatment so it needs to be clear what went wrong.

LemonSquares Tue 03-Jun-14 16:04:54

That baby tooth that shouldn't have been taken out was massive as were some of the others that were removed.

DD1 one that was sinking and taken out was massive - dentist explained that normally when baby teeth fall out naturally the roots sort of dissolve/reabsorb so they look much smaller - and this one looked massive as that hadn't happened yet as we couldn't wait - if it had gone further it would have been a major op with full knock out aesthetic in hospital setting .

It did look huge compared to one that fell out.

AllDirections Tue 03-Jun-14 16:06:29

Thanks everyone, it seems that a lot of things don't add up so I'm going to start writing a list of questions to clarify why they didn't xray sooner, exactly what the toothpaste was for, why it was recommended that the baby tooth stay in, etc.

It won't change the fact that the dentist removed the wrong tooth. He knew immediately that he'd made a big mistake.

As for the pain, when I stopped the dentist trying to remove a tooth until DD2 had had more pain relief he said that usually the injections go in near the tooth for baby teeth and are more direct for adult teeth (or something like that). But he knew that DD2's baby teeth were solid so he should have allowed for this or at least expected it.

PunkHedgehog Tue 03-Jun-14 16:06:39

I agree with Gobbolino that you need to sort out all the facts before making a complaint, so spend some time gathering all the details.

First write down everything you can remember yourself.

Then make an appointment with the orthodontist to check what should have happened, for DDs teeth to be checked over to see what they think did happen, and to talk you through the options for fixing it/what changes are needed to the treatment plan now that tooth has gone.

Then arrange a meeting with the dentist to get their account of what happened and why.

You'll then be in a position to know exactly what you are complaining about (yes, it could just be an inattentive dentist, but it's possible there were other factors as well, such as the instructions from the orthodontist weren't clear), and to have an idea of what you want to happen as a result of the complaint (work to put it right, referral to someone else to put it right, assurance that extra training or new procedures are being organised to ensure it doesn't happen again etc).

isabellavine Tue 03-Jun-14 16:08:54

Fabulous - I don't think that's the definition of 'never event'. I am not an expert but my understanding is that it has to be more serious than a deviation from planned work - with a risk of causing severe harm or death.

But that does not mean that the OP shouldn't complain to the practice manager (initially). Not sure who it goes to next - the Ombudsman?

AllDirections Tue 03-Jun-14 16:09:41

Lemon The teeth were most definitely different sizes. A few looked like normal baby teeth and the others were humongous. We've got the teeth but I'm still too traumatised to open the package and look at them. I'll have a look later.

whois Tue 03-Jun-14 16:10:10

So sorry your DD went through this. You are absolutely not BU to make a complaint!

Rubbish DD was in so much pain also - with the advent of modern dental practice there is no need to inflict pain. Just lazy and rushing.

AllDirections Tue 03-Jun-14 16:13:59

I'll phone the orthodontist tomorrow and either make an appointment or get them to send me the plan so we can get DD2's teeth checked at another dentist. I want to make sure that the rest of the work was carried out according to the plan, i.e. have all the correct teeth been removed?

AllDirections Tue 03-Jun-14 16:18:29

whois I did get the impression that the dentist was in a hurry. I think he came in expecting to do a quick filling or remove a tooth. But then I don't know why he suggested taking out all 8 teeth. Maybe if he'd read the notes and been prepared he would have known that these weren't normal baby teeth and that it might take more time to remove them.

sonlypuppyfat Tue 03-Jun-14 16:24:11

I've always gone to the dentist religiously but just lately I've stopped going I just don't trust them.

Gobbolinothewitchscat Tue 03-Jun-14 16:25:20

all - it's up to you, but I would go to the orthodontist first and then decide what to do. I wouldn't go to another dentist with just a copy of the ortho's treatment plan

I quite understand why you are upset etc but something is just not quite adding up here factually so you need to get that 100% clear before you go somewhere else or they are then limited when assessing the situation

I would also meet with the dentist to to discuss matters once you have met with the orthodontist.

That means you are 100% in possession of the facts before you go elsewhere, if needs be. Because, from what I can work out from DH, another dentist giving a second opinion is going to be very confused if they're told that your previous dentist (or was it the orthodontist?) has prescribed fluoride toothpaste on a preventative basis as they ostensibly couldn't work out if there were adult teeth present or not when an X-ray would tell them that. Or that the orthodontist was apparently trying to retain a baby tooth.

They're going to be confused and might, perhaps, please dint take this the wrong way think you're confused. However, if you've checked with the dentist and the orthodontist you can explain their reasoning (whatever it is)

dietcokefan Tue 03-Jun-14 16:28:44

My husband has just lost his last baby tooth. He is 45. So they can hang around!

AllDirections Tue 03-Jun-14 16:40:17

I've just made an appointment to see the orthodontist on Thursday. Thanks everyone for your advice and support.

whiteblossom Tue 03-Jun-14 16:47:59

op I totally sympathise. This happened to me when I was your daughters age. It had a huge impact on my view on dentist's- I no longer trusted them and once I turned 16 refused to go. I was 21 went I realised that I had to as half a tooth fell out! I had a dentist recommended and I was petrified- I had to be sedated (this is when is was still legal to do so)...anyways you need to restore your dd faith in the profession and assure her that not all dentists are like that. She also needs to know that going to the dentist is not always going to be so traumatic and that it was a one off.

My dm at the time simply said mistakes happen and he's only human...if that had been my ds Ive have throttled the dentist but then I know the impact its had on my life.

As a result of my fear, Ive developed tooth ache/jaw/face pain as a response to stress which feeds into my fear of needing treatment which then makes the pain worse! It took three years to get to the bottom of what was happening and why. It all stems from that one day.

I hope your dd recovers well my heart goes out to her x

My husband has just lost his last baby tooth. He is 45. So they can hang around!

My mum's still got one, and she's 76! I think it's a genetic trait though.

OP - your poor daughter - it sounds like she was so brave.

AllDirections Tue 03-Jun-14 19:03:29

I've looked at the teeth and put a picture on my profile. Don't look if you're squeamish. There are only 7 teeth so who knows where the other 2 are. They were flying everywhere and some had to be picked up off the floor.

Extracted teeth

Mrsmorton Wed 04-Jun-14 10:17:55

Primary teeth are never re implanted, it doesn't work like it does for adult teeth.

This is all very confusing tbh. Either they know the teeth are present (hence knowing about the deformed one) or thy don't know (hence the comment re toothpaste). Our orthodontists won't accept referrals unless all of the correct radiographic views have been taken so that sounds odd.

It is a never event as it's wrong site surgery, same as amputating the wrong finger. However, has dd actually suffered long term "harm" from this? Short term, yes, your dentist sounds bizarre and this is weird. But, the chances are she would have lost the baby tooth at some point as there is an adult tooth below it. Unless the adult tooth is impacted in which case, that should be addressed as well due to the chances of cyst development.

It's very complex and there are several things which need clarifying, hopefully you'll get some answers soon.

AllDirections Wed 04-Jun-14 12:16:25

I didn't know that any teeth could be re implanted Mrsmorton I'd never heard of it until yesterday. I hope the extracted teeth were all baby teeth or I won't be responsible for my actions! The dentist had the tooth pully out thingy on one of DD2's adult teeth at one point before realising that the baby tooth was behind it shock

I agree that it's all really confusing but I hope posters don't think that I'm confused. Everything that I've said is what has actually happened. I'll be checking which teeth have been removed with the orthodontist tomorrow and I'll make sure I get copies of all the paperwork. Then I'll be changing orthodontist as the practice obviously has business links with the dental practice and I've lost all trust in everyone involved.

ajandjjmum Wed 04-Jun-14 12:29:19

What a dreadful thing for you to cope with AllDirections. And your poor DD.

DS was born with a cleft, and the orthodontist has retained one of his baby teeth (he's now in his 20's) and it's doing the job, so I can imagine how incensed you must be - quite rightly.

Gobbolinothewitchscat Wed 04-Jun-14 18:02:44

The dentist had the tooth pully out thingy on one of DD2's adult teeth at one point before realising that the baby tooth was behind it

How were you able to see that? Or did the dentist start talking out loud and say that?

It all sounds totally bizarre - including teeth pinging on the ground.

Also - to put your mind slightly at rest - presumably DD would know if an adult tooth was accidently removed? Has she said she thinks one was?

I don't know - best to ingather the facts and take it from there. It just doesn't seen to add up and I think the orthodontist and the dentist should be given the chance to clarify what exactly they have done and why before you take any further decisions

AllDirections Wed 04-Jun-14 18:31:52

The dentist had the tooth pully out thingy on one of DD2's adult teeth at one point before realising that the baby tooth was behind it

How were you able to see that? Or did the dentist start talking out loud and say that?

Both. I was right there with DD2 holding her hand. It was grim and that image will never leave my head. The dentist was also talking through it. When he had the implement on the adult teeth he stopped and checked the orthodontist's plan again before taking out the baby tooth behind it. Does a dentist automatically know which are baby teeth and which are adult teeth? DD2's mouth has been a mass of teeth for so long that she didn't/doesn't know what teeth are there.

It all sounds totally bizarre - including teeth pinging on the ground

The more that you all question things that happened the more I realise how dire the situation was. We'll know more tomorrow when I check which teeth have been removed. Hopefully they were all baby teeth which would mean that DD2 has no baby teeth left, 14 have been removed altogether and she's lost 6 naturally.

AllDirections Wed 04-Jun-14 18:36:48

Gobbolino Which things don't add up the most?

AgaPanthers Wed 04-Jun-14 18:37:01

This is why I don't trust NHS dentists, my local one is like this with my kids too all slapdash and hurried, presumably because he doesn't think the NHS pays them enough. He does adults privately and seems to think deigning to treat children is a favour.

Gobbolinothewitchscat Wed 04-Jun-14 18:44:24

Just the things I've set out in my earlier posts

I've spoken to DH and i just don't feel comfortable commenting anymore. As I've said, I think you've done the right thing making an appointment to speak to the orthodontist and hopefully the dentist to try and clarify what's gone on

I wouldn't like to surmise any further and they have a right to explain obviously

MrsMaturin Wed 04-Jun-14 18:46:16

This sounds shocking. Just to give some contrast I took dd2 to have one tooth out following an orthodontic opinion. The adult tooth had grown in high up the gum and the baby it was replacing hadn't fallen out. My very lovely lady dentist retired quite suddenly due to health and had handed us on to a chap at the practice we'd never met before though she described him as a 'lovely young man'. Well he certainly was that. Very clear with dd what was happening, checked the records and the letters first. Gave an injection and waited, preliminary tweak followed by more injection. Then he got it out and it wasn't easy because the root was still very large. AT all times though I knew what he was doing, he was responsive to dd and we felt totally comfortable. You can accept nothing less than that. I hope you get some resolution of this upsetting situation soon.

Chocovore Wed 04-Jun-14 21:15:55

Have you checked out the dentist on the GDC website? You can search by name on there and see if he has any restrictions.

DameDiazepamTheDramaQueen Wed 04-Jun-14 21:49:01

Just wanted to say my nhs dentist is fantastic much better than the private ones I've seen who quite frankly were rip off merchants who wanted x rays every time I visitedhmm I'm not a huge fab of the nhs generally but there are good dentists out there.

OP really hope you manage to sort things out and come to some kind of resolution.

guineapig1 Wed 04-Jun-14 21:58:51

This is dreadful. I really feel for you and our dd op. Appreciate that your daughter is unlikely to be keen on this but if you possibly can I'd get her into see an independent dentist ASAP for a check up so that he can have a look, take notes and photos if poss (I appreciate that sounds hideous!) just incase you need to down the clinical negligence route with this. Not suggesting for a second it will get that far but it is crucial that you have some independent and contemporary evidence I.e. From now not from six months down the line.

Other than that
1. Try to get complete copies of all her dental notes.
2. Internal complaint procedure and then regulatory body (bda?) if not satisfied.
3. Meet with orthodontist ASAP to discuss damage limitation and what other options are available.

Good luck and wine

guineapig1 Wed 04-Jun-14 22:00:56

Sorry should add also write everything down as soon as you can in your own words and in as much detail as poss eg what was said, by whom, how many times he stopped, his attitude and expressions, assistants attitudes and expressions etc. again, could be invaluable as evidence for a complaint of negligence claim.

catkind Wed 04-Jun-14 22:10:02

Your poor DD.
Just to back up other people's comments - I'm 37 and still have two baby teeth going strong. Like your DD the adult teeth hadn't formed properly and were growing the wrong direction, they eventually had to be surgically removed. At the time (I was 18) they said the baby teeth should last another 10 years. Looks like it'll be at least twice that! So def worth making a big fuss about.

Mrsmorton Thu 05-Jun-14 08:58:44

The BDA isn't a regulatory body, it's a toothless (excuse the pun) trade union that has a dwindling membership due to it's lack of support to the profession.

The gdc is regulatory but as pointed out, you are expected to use the internal complaints process as far as possible and if not happy, then the gdc.

This is separate from clinical negligence claims which unless they amount to misconduct or impaired fitness to practise, the gdc won't get involved in.

PixieofCatan Thu 05-Jun-14 09:45:34

shock And I thought that it was bad when a dentist started 'fixing' a 'hole' in a tooth of mine that didn't have one!

Complain complain complain, definitely. Can you contact your orthodontist? They'll have details of who you would need to complain too I would think?

GhoulWithADragonTattoo Thu 05-Jun-14 10:16:28

Speak to the orthodontist ASAP. I would think there's a good chance he'll be able to straighten DD's teeth without the extracted baby tooth there. Given baby tooth unlikely to last as well as adult teeth that might actually be a better solution if available. I hope this works out well and your DD is not too upset.

Mrsmorton Thu 05-Jun-14 12:12:19

I'd like to interject here and suggest that the orthodontists plan doesn't sound exactly orthodox either, so speaking to them may not be the panacea you're all suggesting. It's unusual to plan to leave a baby tooth where there's a permanent successor and not have a plan for the permanent tooth or replacement of the baby tooth when it fails which it probably (probably) will.

LemonSquares Thu 05-Jun-14 12:47:46

orthodontists plan doesn't sound exactly orthodox either, so speaking to them may not be the panacea you're all suggesting.

OP should be able to get more information though - like why he wanted this baby tooth left in and what they suggest now - what x-rays have shown is going on.

If OP still isn't happy – she can ask around for new decent dental practise. We've moved around fair bit - and when we see new dentists they don't work off old notes they assess our teeth are do x-rays and go from there - though mid treatment might be different I don't know.

AllDirections Thu 05-Jun-14 15:32:33

Well the good news is that the dentist did remove the 8 baby teeth that he was supposed to as well as the one that he wasn't supposed to.

BUT the orthodontist was definitely not supportive. He was very dismissive, made out that we were wasting his time and at one point tried to make me out to be the one that was out of order. Given his manner I still want to check that we've been given the correct information regarding DD2's teeth.

I asked him for a copy of the plan/diagram that he had sent the dentist but he said he'd just sent him a letter and printed me a copy of that. The dentist had definitely worked from a plan/diagram that looked handwritten/drawn.

He repeated what he said before about the reasons for that baby tooth to be left. I accepted his reasons then and I still do. I showed him the toothpaste prescribed by the dentist and asked him what it's usually prescribed for and I asked him if it's usual for the dentist to have already done xrays before a referral to an orthodontist.

Wabbitty Thu 05-Jun-14 16:34:24

Well somebody should have taken x-rays, whether that's the referring dentist or the orthodontist it doesn't really matter. (If I have taken them they get sent with my referral letter, if the orthodontist has taken them then they will send them to me if teeth need to be taken out, on the understanding that they are returned).

This is the very reason I (and I know I'm not alone) wish orthodontists would take the teeth out themselves - they know what they want out and it stops any miss-communication.

GhoulWithADragonTattoo Fri 06-Jun-14 00:09:36

What did the orthodontist say about going forward? Did he think he could still sort our your DD's teeth with the extra tooth removed?

AllDirections Fri 06-Jun-14 09:05:22

The orthodontist said it's too early to tell whether there will be a gap or not.

AllDirections Fri 06-Jun-14 09:16:44

Wabbity The orthodontist did the xrays. I only asked because of the reasons the dentist gave for prescribing the toothpaste. A pp had questioned why the dentist didn't do xrays to check on the adult teeth rather than prescribe the toothpaste.

That's one of the questions that I need to put to the dentist. And why wasn't DD2 referred to somewhere she could be sedated when I asked for that. I even informed them that DD2 is covered on XH's private health care policy.

Wabbitty Fri 06-Jun-14 12:06:51

It's difficult for me to answer because I'm not the dentist involved and these are the questions he should be answering but what I can say is in the area where I am no form of sedation is offered to those under 16 (not even nitrous oxide) on the NHS. I don't know about private but I think 13 is too young for intravenous anyway

DameDiazepamTheDramaQueen Fri 06-Jun-14 15:48:38

I thought they'd stopped all sedation for patients now and had done for years. I thought that you had to go to hospital for a GA if you couldn't have them out at the dentist.

Mrsmorton Fri 06-Jun-14 17:00:48

You can have sedation in the dental chair. Lots of dentists do it, you just need some specialist equipment and trained staff.

If you need a GA (not sedation) then it has to be done by an anaesthetist.

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