To have really upset DH and now he's scared to touch me.

(269 Posts)
brotherhoodofspam Wed 30-Apr-14 20:17:58

Have NC for this as DH knows my username. Am looking for a bit of perspective. DH has tendency to grab a boob/my bum when I'm not expecting and I've always found it pretty annoying but have tended to swat him away but never really said how unappealing and unsexy I find it. Came to a head at weekend. I was coming down with throat infection and was telling him I was feeling shivery and unwell and he said - "is that why your nipples are big?" and proceeded to grab them. angry angry I told him I didn't appreciate being groped particularly when feeling unwell. He got really upset and there followed long "discussion"about this and other aspects of our sex life, or lack of it as he sees it (once or twice a week usually - sometimes more sometimes less). Anyway he's been really quiet since then and this morning I found out he's still really upset. Says I made him feel like a sex offender and doesn't know how to touch me / initiate sex now. I think I've really knocked his confidence. I apologised for using the very loaded word "grope" and explained that it was just the last straw when I was trying to tell him I was unwell, but I don't really know how to make things right with him. He's a great DH and we love each other++ and maybe I was stupid to try after 18 years of marriage to be honest about something that really is a bit of a turn off. So WIBU to tell him what I thought? Do other people object to this kind of thing? Have I been spending to much time on MN and getting daft ideas that speaking your mind is a good idea? And any suggestions for how I make this right with him?

Catnuzzle Wed 30-Apr-14 20:24:15

I've never understood why men do this. My DH does it too. I think it's really disrespectful and does in no way make me want to have sex with him. I have no pearls of wisdom I'm afraid, just offering sympathy.

abitofanangrybird Wed 30-Apr-14 20:25:35

I think I would have felt just like you - I've had to have a word with DH about comments like that before too. We do have a laugh and joke about a lot but there's a time and a place for comments like that and I'd have reacted in the same way if I'd been telling him I felt poorly. And as for the groping blush
I think all you can do is reiterate that you do love and fancy him, but don't want to be groped and leered at. He's a grown man, he should be able to take it on board and get over it IMO. Not sure you need do anything else.

Forgettable Wed 30-Apr-14 20:27:12

No yanbu at all

ugh at the groping and I bet he leers too

if he feels bad, well tough

FruitbatAuntie Wed 30-Apr-14 20:28:00

Actually, YANBU AT ALL to tell your DH how his behaviour makes you feel. He is reacting in this way (whether consciously or not) in order to convince you not to mention this again. His BS about you treating him like a sex offender is designed to make you back off rapidly. It is a very common technique that I have seen on here many times (and experienced with my exp).

Do not back down. I am not saying be confrontational, just quietly stand your ground. He is testing you (really... now maybe he isn't aware of this, but he is!)

wheresthelight Wed 30-Apr-14 20:28:10

My exh used to do this a lot. It is the reason he is my exh

Billygoats Wed 30-Apr-14 20:28:45

I could of written this post too OP! Again no words of wisdom I'm afraid. I don't think you should have kept it quiet though, he needed to know you were unc

bumbumsmummy Wed 30-Apr-14 20:29:18

ooh bless you why dont you show him what you do like then he will know in future win win

FindoGask Wed 30-Apr-14 20:30:19

I think you were right to tell him how you feel, and my initial response was that he's overreacting, but then I don't know exactly what you said to him. But of course you shouldn't have to put up with him having a grope whenever he feels like it. Perhaps he just feels guilty and ashamed that he's been acting like this for 18 years and you've been hating it all that time! You should have told him before, really.

Billygoats Wed 30-Apr-14 20:30:47

Stupid phone . . . Uncomfortable with what he was doing. I told my dh and he just stopped, he doesn't seem too offended (at least I hope not).

RandomMess Wed 30-Apr-14 20:31:37

Try telling him what you do like, what does get you in the mood - such as a loving hug/cuddle and affectionate kisses?

BarbarianMum Wed 30-Apr-14 20:31:47

YANBU If he's genuinely unsure then suggest to him ways he can initiate intimacy. For example, maybe he could start w a hug or a kiss before he lunges for your boobs.

HumphreyCobbler Wed 30-Apr-14 20:31:53

he was being really awful though, grabbing at you after your said you were feeling ill. I don't think you should feel guilty. He is a grown man, how does he think that is a good time OR a good way to initiate sex?

Cornettoninja Wed 30-Apr-14 20:32:49

You are definitely not being unreasonable. It's your body and you should be able to dictate how and when it's touched.

I think your dp's prides taken a bruising. I can see how being told something you've been doing for years isn't the easiest pill to swallow. Leave him to lick his wounds and mull over it for a couple of days then raise it again and point out there's no need to start over reacting and just listen to the boundaries you have set.

If he's still been a div it's time to start considering what he's trying to achieve by not listening to you and trying to make you feel bad about it.

sherazade Wed 30-Apr-14 20:33:29

so in the peak of a throat infection, he is sulking and you are apologising to him ? He thinks its alright to make you uncomfortable and grope you when you're sick? he should be apologising to you! hmm

googoodolly Wed 30-Apr-14 20:34:24

I'm not surprised he feels upset! He's been doing it for 18+ years and you've never told him you hate it, so why would he think to stop? He's just doing what he's always done.

But, YANBU to not like it and YANBU to tell him so, but did you really expect him to say "Oh, okay" and just accept it? Because it's not as if it's something he's just started doing, it's what he's done to get your attention/initiate sex for your whole marriage!

I would be pretty upset and confused if DP did this to me. Just give him some time and talk to him when you're both less emotional.

justmuddlingalong Wed 30-Apr-14 20:34:33

He did grope you, why minimise it to make him feel better. You pointed out something he does that upsets you. Tell him to build a bridge and get over it.

CrystalSkulls Wed 30-Apr-14 20:34:50

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Itsfab Wed 30-Apr-14 20:35:37

It is never a "daft idea" to speak your mind!!

pictish Wed 30-Apr-14 20:35:50

I apologised for using the very loaded word "grope"

Why? That is, after all, what he does isn't it? Gropes you.

Kerryp Wed 30-Apr-14 20:36:10

I don't think your being unreasonable, especially if you were ill. The way he's behaving now seems like a ploy to make you feel ashamed of yourself but you shouldn't feel like that at all.

balia Wed 30-Apr-14 20:37:42

DH and I are both bum patters; we seem to be always busy and it serves as a kind of quick connection/reassurance as we dash past each other. So I don't see it as groping and quite like it. Can see why other people might not like it, that's fine - but if he's been doing it for 18 years and you've never before mentioned how much you don't like it, then I think in fairness it is understandable he is upset!

But better late than never; he'll probably feel a bit foolish and rejected for a bit but he'll get over it.

LisaMed Wed 30-Apr-14 20:38:13

He's making sure you won't object to being groped in future

Fizzybangfanny Wed 30-Apr-14 20:39:43

Don't feel bad . Let him sulk. You don't like it, he should t do it.

When I first met dp, while we were having sex just as I was about to orgasm he twisted/pinched both my nipples at the same time. I nearly head butted him.

He was told he was never to do that again . He apologised.

brotherhoodofspam Wed 30-Apr-14 20:40:03

I don't think it's ever successfully led to sex Dolly, and I've never led him to believe I like it - just haven't been quite as blunt as this before. Good to know that he's not the only one who does this. Perhaps it's a guy thing to think sticking a hand in your pants is enough to get you going!

TheMD Wed 30-Apr-14 20:40:51

Agreed with above - your DH should be apologising to you, not the other way round! I'm sorry you're in this situation - as someone who is sensitive to unexpected/unwanted bodily contact, I don't find it funny and couldn't be with someone who did this to me on a regular basis.

DIYapprentice Wed 30-Apr-14 20:44:05

I'm not sure why you apologising for using the word grope, its what he has been doing, isn't? You've had a lifetime together of him pretty much ignoring what you've been saying - I'm afraid he SHOULD feel bad.

If he's any sort of a decent man he will get over it. If he's a juvenile delinquent he will sulk forever. Which is he?

Tell him to touch YOU, not your sexual parts. Touching sexual parts isn't a turn on, it's something that is done ONCE YOU ARE TURNED ON.

How a guy can get to his 20s without getting this is sad. How he could have ignored what you have told him for 18 years is incredibly awful.

lollerskates Wed 30-Apr-14 20:44:44

I'm not surprised he feels upset! He's been doing it for 18+ years and you've never told him you hate it, so why would he think to stop? He's just doing what he's always done

OP said that she has always swatted his hand away. So she DID tell him she didn't like it. He CHOSE to ignore her because he likes grabbing her breasts.

lollerskates Wed 30-Apr-14 20:45:26

Perhaps it's a guy thing to think sticking a hand in your pants is enough to get you going!

Not a guy thing. Just an arsehole thing.

WitchWay Wed 30-Apr-14 20:45:42

Mine does this - I don't mind my bum being patted or stroked unless he gooses me when I'm bending over but hate his grabbing my boobs. Since having DS16 my nipples have felt unpleasant when touched, not at all sexy shame as they used to make me cum

AnyFucker Wed 30-Apr-14 20:45:49

eh ?

Why would you now go arse licking back to him for telling him the truth about something that has bothered you for some time ? The word "grope" is a descriptive term that fully describes his behaviour.

Hang onto your dignity and tell him to grow the fuck up. Your body is not his personal wank sock.

Chippednailvarnish Wed 30-Apr-14 20:46:55

He sounds grim, apologising is the last thing you should be doing...

brotherhoodofspam Wed 30-Apr-14 20:49:09

I suspect you're right Lollerskates but DH really isn't an arsehole in any other way - more misguided I think!

SixImpossible Wed 30-Apr-14 20:50:41

The fact that you've never lead him to believe that you like it, does not mean that you have - until now - clearly expressed to him that you dislike it. Some people need things spelled out very clearly.

You're both hurt by each other's behaviour. Personally, I think you both owe each other an apology. You to him for snapping at him and for not having communicated clearly with him; him to you for grabbing you inappropriately (ie while you feel ill).

You need to discuss this together, recognising each other's feelings, and negotiate a different way of expressing interest/closeness/affection that pleases both of you.

AnyFucker Wed 30-Apr-14 20:53:04

"misguided" ?

Who told you that ? Him ? Some manpleasing mate of yours ?

Wake up, lady

eurochick Wed 30-Apr-14 20:54:08

Sex a couple of times a week after 18 years and he thinks you don't have much of a sex life? Blimey.

And the groping is horrible. The phrase "I've never wanted you more" accompanied by a withering look may serve you well in future.

lollerskates Wed 30-Apr-14 20:54:19

Some people need things spelled out very clearly

Do you genuinely believe that OP's DH is completely unaware of the entire concept of body language? Because I don't. If I touch someone and they hit my hand away I would think "That means something. What does it mean? Perhaps it means they do not want my hand where I put it." Then - worst case scenario - I'd test that hypothesis by doing it one more time.
If this guy's been testing the hypothesis every day for the past 18 years, something is amiss.

brotherhoodofspam Wed 30-Apr-14 20:54:48

Nobody Anyfucker - I am capable of forming my own opinions

greenwinter Wed 30-Apr-14 20:56:15

Think logically. If your partner told you you were doing something that upset him or annoyed him, how would you react? I know I would be apologetic, and would change my behaviour.

He is trying to stop you challenging him in the future.

cees Wed 30-Apr-14 20:58:17

You don't need to make this right, he does, let him think long and hard about how he has been dis-respecting you.

Ask him if he would like to hear that one of his daughters has had to put up with the same shit off a boyfriend, how would that make him feel?

He can sulk and hang his head all he wants, he has been a dick to just grab you like that, you told him you were ill and his answer is to grope you, do not look for ways to massage him better, he needs to apologize to you.

JohnFarleysRuskin Wed 30-Apr-14 21:01:33

Poor delicate flower. How was he to know that when you are telling someone that you feel really poorly, the best response is not to grab your nipples?

AnyFucker Wed 30-Apr-14 21:01:56

That's not served you too well for last 18 years < shrug >

Lancelottie Wed 30-Apr-14 21:01:56

'Look, Buster. No Unwanted Sexual Contact. Got it?'

matildasquared Wed 30-Apr-14 21:05:35

The stories of women having their breasts/nipples/bums groped day after day in their own homes make my SKIN CRAWL. It's not about being sexy, it's about entitlement.

Like do I just randomly grab my husband's balls when he's telling me about his day or trying to get on with something? And if I did and he got annoyed, would I just explain to him that, no, I'm going to keep doing it?

I think we've all misjudged a moment with a partner/lover but this is entirely different. It is technically sexual assault.

And now he's trying to lay a guilt trip? REALLY?

greenwinter Wed 30-Apr-14 21:05:47

"Have I been spending to much time on MN and getting daft ideas that speaking your mind is a good idea?"

No, you have been spending time on MN and getting the idea that what you want, matters. And it does.

IsChippyMintonExDirectory Wed 30-Apr-14 21:06:28

YANBU he is being sensitive.

My DH would come up to me when I would be doing something un-sexual like loading the dishwasher and grab my arse and say "wanna have sex?" Not really a good time! This would happen often, we do have sex but never when he did something like that.

It came to a head a few weeks ago when he grumbled that he "comes on to me all the time and I'm never in the mood". I explained how random acts of randiness on HIS terms were not a turn on for me and I'd like a bit more romance please. Saying "wanna shag" when I'm about to make dinner does not instantly have me half way to an orgasm and is quite frankly fucking selfish.

He doesn't quite get it 100% but the random "come ons" have stopped and he has listened to me. I think he thinks I'm being frigid.

Anyway my point is make your OH see from your point of view that doing that is not a turn on, why would it be?! We're not like blokes who would shag a cucumber at the drop of a hat, us women are a different beast and we need to be romanced a little!

Littleturkish Wed 30-Apr-14 21:06:54

I have an ex who would do this and it still gives me the rage to think of it.

No good advice really, but I think you did the right thing in telling him- imagine leaving it to build up- no one would be happy then.

ICanSeeTheSun Wed 30-Apr-14 21:10:42

Yanbu.

I married DH, I married him to spend the rest of our lives together. I didn't marry him to become a sex toy.

WhoNickedMyName Wed 30-Apr-14 21:13:13

If after 18 years of you swatting his hand away every time he mauls you (ask him if he prefers 'maul' instead of grope), he hadn't got the message, then yes he needed telling, as he clearly lacks even very basic intelligence and awareness.

Itsfab Wed 30-Apr-14 21:18:42

sad

This is like many thread we have had where the OP has posted in a distraught state that her partner has hit her and then 4 or 5 posts in she is all he is such a good man really, I must have pissed him off,

OP it either annoys you or it doesn't.

Thurlow Wed 30-Apr-14 21:20:14

Groping isn't nice. No one wants to have it done to them when they don't like or want it, and particularly not when you are feeling ill. So YADNBU to tell him that you don't like it and you don't want him to do it.

However, I do think there is something to be said for this having gone of for 18 years and you've never said anything about it. Maybe he's a tit at reading body language. Maybe you just ignored it and didn't give off signals that you don't like it. Who knows without actually seeing it?

If my OH suddenly blurted out that he hated something I had been doing the 13 years we have been together, I'm fairly certain I'd be hurt too. If it upset or bothered you that much over the past two decades surely you would have mentioned it before? Or the flip side of that question is, were you scared somehow of telling him to stop? If not, then I am curious why you've never ever brought it up before.

Can you not just have a conversation about it? Tell him how you feel about how he touches you, ask him to tell you how he feels about what you've said.

Waltermittythesequel Wed 30-Apr-14 21:21:46

Hang on:

You have never led him to believe that this was something you enjoyed and why on earth would you?

You told him to stop. It is never wrong to tell someone to stop touching you.

He doesn't know how to touch you or initiate sex without doing something you expressly dislike???

And now you want to apologise to him for not allowing him to grope you?

And what's this problem with the word grope? You wouldn't have used it if he hadn't done it.

Tell him to cop the fuck on to himself. HE should be apologising for treating you as a sex toy.

ThisIsLID Wed 30-Apr-14 21:25:25

Well a shame that he is finding himself like a sex offender because ... if he had done that to any other woman, he would have been seen as a sex offender.
It's not because you are his wife that suddenly he isn't behaving like one.

I think the problem here is that a swat on the hand just showed that you didn't like it but that didn't stop him for 18 years

By actually describing things as they are and using the real words such as 'groping' then it made everything real and put his actions into perspective. It clearly says it IS unacceptable. So of course he is unhappy. He tries to protect himself by playing the victim and how bad does he feels now so much so that he doesn't even know how to approach you any more even though in the last 18 years, I am sure he has used other ways to signal he is happy to have sex. He even manages to make you feel guilty about it and to shift the blame onto you.
I think his tactics to not take responsibility is working a charm don't you?

waterlego Wed 30-Apr-14 21:36:52

Yuck, how revolting sad

I'm not a prude; I like sex as much as the next person, but I wouldn't find it acceptable to be randomly groped by my husband. Luckily, my husband is sensitive enough to be able to ascertain when I am in the mood, and therefore whether sexual touching would be welcome at any given time. Men are not animals, they can control their sexual urges, just as women can.

YANBU OP. He is sulking. Agree with those who suggest you tell him to get over it.

CrystalSkulls Wed 30-Apr-14 21:44:53

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

maddening Wed 30-Apr-14 21:48:05

I doubt you grabbing his crotch in the same manner would be fun - he wouldn't like that I bet - he is out of order

IsChippyMintonExDirectory Wed 30-Apr-14 21:49:38

maddening my DH announced he would "love it" if I randomly grabbed his balls at inappropriate times. I assured him he wouldn't and I have never had the lack of self respect to ever try it

matildasquared Wed 30-Apr-14 21:55:40

HA! Try it. Next time he's really poorly or telling you about a terrible day, grab his balls. See what happens.

matildasquared Wed 30-Apr-14 21:56:11

KIDDING. Don't assault your husband.

IsChippyMintonExDirectory Wed 30-Apr-14 21:57:52

He's actually got D&V at the moment, it would be monumentally cruel and so satisfying to prove I'm right in equal measure grin "what that doesn't turn you on whilst you're being sick?! Why ever not? FRIGID!!"

Smartiepants79 Wed 30-Apr-14 22:02:52

My husband does this a bit.
I find it monumentally irritating.
He even used to randomly grab my crotch when we first got together. I made it clear i didn't want to be groped! He was a bit miffed but hasn't done it since.

deakymom Wed 30-Apr-14 22:09:25

my husband does this he also kisses me when im trying to say something it makes me feel unvalued in a way like he isnt interested in what i have to say or trying to do his most annoying recent habit is bruise poking im quite clumsy so i get bruises he asks where i get them then pokes it and asks if it hurts sad

Mrsdoasyouwouldbedoneby Wed 30-Apr-14 22:10:14

Actually. Men do like to be groped it seems. I tried explaining the 'very like the above' is not at all a come on, and would he like it if I randomly groped him, and he said "yes". No answer to that. We have had several discussions about it, and quite frankly his libido is higher than mine, so we have had a lot of talking about mutual respect. The key here is we do talk about it (and boy has he sulked... But not recently). He does value me, but for him, it would be sexy if I did those things to him. He struggles to grasp it isn't and is mildly annoying (saying the least). But to function as a couple we need to recognise our own needs (pos and neg), and how they relate to the other's needs (again pos and neg). My DH was not being deliberately abusive. But he is human and can be a sulky git at times (like I said, being open about his has made it better), just as I can rant in an unreasonable way particularly when fuel by hormones. Just human. Just unreasonable sometimes. I expect your dh is licking his wounds, cos he probably does feel rather hurt. Cos in his world he thought he was ok doing what he does, and he isn't, and how many of us like to accept that we are truly unreasonable...

I mean. There is not a forum with that title for no good reason... Perhaps it should be 'I'm not unreasonable am I? (Moment of self doubt forum).

Op is not unreasonable. I am so with her on this one. But neither do I see her dh as some kind of fiend or 'ought to be ex', I doubt there is any man/person out there who can give us what we want, how we want it 100% of the time.... And that, in my case, would probably include a clone of myself.

AnyFucker Wed 30-Apr-14 22:17:30

it's a mistake to ask these men if they would like to be groped

of course they are going to say yes

the most appropriate query is "how would you like to punched in the face repeatedly, despite you asking me to stop"

bellybuttonfairy Wed 30-Apr-14 22:18:04

My dh does this. He is incredibly caring but on occasion he just cant seem to leave me alone! I always return the groping especially if he is busy and concentrating on something else. He always says - 'oh no, thats so annoying! I would divorce me if I were you!!'

Writing it down now - I m trying to think when he last did it - its been ages.

Men do think differently to women sexually. Maybe, you need to show him how annoying you find it?

Glitterfeet Wed 30-Apr-14 22:19:26

Deakymom
Why the fuck would he do something like that?

AnyFucker Wed 30-Apr-14 22:21:08

I think some of the men described here actually hate their partners, not love them at all

waterlego Wed 30-Apr-14 22:27:55

I doubt there is any man/person out there who can give us what we want, how we want it 100% of the time

I agree MrsDo, but there are foibles, and then there's unwelcome sexual touching.

Certain traits of my DH's get on my wick. But being groped would massively overstep a line for me.

matildasquared Wed 30-Apr-14 22:28:07

It's not "libido" or "male sexuality," it's entitlement.

waterlego Wed 30-Apr-14 22:29:41

I fear the same AF

If women were saying they liked it and welcomed it; then fair enough. But
I don't think any poster has yet. I'm genuinely shocked at how many women are being touched up by their partners when they don't want to be.

AnyFucker Wed 30-Apr-14 22:31:47

not putting the toilet seat down versus unwanted sexual groping

hmm....

brotherhoodofspam Wed 30-Apr-14 22:34:29

It'sfab - it does about me, hence what I said to him and subsequent Barney but I think it's a bit much to liken it to him hitting me. I haven't changed my opinion 4 or 5 posts in like you suggest, I said in my 1st post that he's otherwise great. It is annoying but I don't think he's a monster and don't plan to LTB and it sounds like there are quite a few other DPs with a similarly inept approach. Thanks for all the re-education suggestions.

crispyporkbelly Wed 30-Apr-14 22:35:17

Some of the men described here sound ghastly!

brotherhoodofspam Wed 30-Apr-14 22:35:48

sorry, about not about

brotherhoodofspam Wed 30-Apr-14 22:36:43

bloody phone. annoy not about

AskBasil Wed 30-Apr-14 22:37:12

"The fact that you've never lead him to believe that you like it, does not mean that you have - until now - clearly expressed to him that you dislike it. Some people need things spelled out very clearly."

Because the onus is on women, to make clear to men that they want to be treated like human beings and not like wank socks.

The onus is not on men to realise that the women they live with are not wank socks, but human beings just like them. How on earth are they supposed to know that? After all, these women are walking around with breasts and a vagina, so how are men supposed to distinguish them from a wank-sock?

Honestly people, what do you think men are, some sort of developed species or something? People who are capable of thinking, empathy, caring, loving? You man-haters you, thinking that about men.

hmm

He sounds absolutely disgusting.

If someone groped me while I was loading the dishwasher he'd be lucky not to get a fucking plate smashed over his head. Self defence, people.

AnyFucker Wed 30-Apr-14 22:39:05

OP, have you stopped blaming yourself for upsetting him yet ?

AskBasil Wed 30-Apr-14 22:39:39

Honestly some women expect so very little of men.

I honestly feel sorry for some of you, living with men who have such terrible contempt for you.

Fuck me it must be exhausting building up that cognitive dissonance day after day after day, so that you don't have to recognise the contempt.

brotherhoodofspam Wed 30-Apr-14 22:40:13

Yes. Am definitely feeling a lot less apologetic!

gertiegusset Wed 30-Apr-14 22:40:45

He's not scared to touch you he's punishing you and his behaviour is like that of a sex offender.
So now he's sulking because you've made him feel bad, well too bad.

I would hate being grabbed and groped by DP if I wasn't expecting it or didn't feel well, how awful that he carries on when you have told him you're feeling under the weather.

AnyFucker Wed 30-Apr-14 22:40:53

Good smile

AskBasil Wed 30-Apr-14 22:42:23

At least he actually feels bad about feeling like a sex offender.

Now let's see if he can progress to feeling bad about acting like a fucking sex offender.

BillyBanter Wed 30-Apr-14 22:44:20

OP why is it more important that he is upset by your objection to being touched like that than you being upset at him touching you like that?

Is he not at all bothered that you were upset?

Have you given him suggestions about how he might better approach you?

featherlight kiss to the back of the neck works for me. Buckles my knees if I'm not expecting it.

whois Wed 30-Apr-14 22:45:33

Would he like it if you randomly grabbed his dick and have it a squeeze every now and again?

I don't think you should be apologising to him. You tried to give him hints before it maybe it would have been better to have had this discussion years ago, in a calmer way!

whois Wed 30-Apr-14 22:46:51

featherlight kiss to the back of the neck works for me. Buckles my knees if I'm not expecting it.

Oh god, yes!

brotherhoodofspam Wed 30-Apr-14 22:49:23

Sadly he probably would like it Whois! or thinks he would, not that I've ever tried
[gri[g

Waltermittythesequel Wed 30-Apr-14 22:50:11

I doubt there is any man/person out there who can give us what we want, how we want it 100% of the time....

I think not wanting to be groped all the time is a pretty basic requirement.

Inertia Wed 30-Apr-14 22:52:58

*He's not scared to touch you he's punishing you and his behaviour is like that of a sex offender.
So now he's sulking because you've made him feel bad, well too bad.*

This ^^ is the bottom line.

As you've said you usually move his hand away when he gropes you because you don't like it, presumably it doesn't usually lead to sex?

He knows he's in the wrong, he knows that actually the word grope is precisely the right word for what he's doing, but it's easier to make you feel bad than to apologise for repeatedly imposing unwanted sexual contact on you.

GatoradeMeBitch Thu 01-May-14 00:09:11

Grabbing your nipples when he knows you're unwell is incredibly disrespectful. He SHOULD be feeling like a sex offender. Take your apology back. If he doesn't want to feel like a sex offender he should stop acting like one.

AveryJessup Thu 01-May-14 01:53:16

Your DH sounds like a rude pig to be honest. You shouldn't feel bad about snapping at him when you were sick and he tried to grab you like that. What did he think he was going to achieve? Was he showing empathy in his actions? Did he think he was going to initiate sex - when you had just told him you were sick?

It's one thing if he was grabbing you regularly and getting some mixed message about it being pleasant for you (not sure how on earth that could happen as no-one likes being grabbed and groped out of the blue, no-one I know anyway). But to grab you like that when you've told him you're shivery and feeling sick from a throat infection is just ignorant behavior.

He behaved like a pig so he should be apologizing to you, not you to him for having used some word that offended him. Have a straight talk with him and tell him that you're fed up of being manhandled and would appreciate some more respect and empathy from him. If he doesn't get the message then you will just have to keep being assertive until it gets through to him.

Morloth Thu 01-May-14 01:57:44

He could of course solve this problem by apologizing and not groping you?

DH and I are very touchy/feely with each other, but we don't grope at each other (well unless the touchy/feeliness progresses obviously).

I always get that skin creeping feeling when threads like this come up. It is just a bit yuck isn't it?

PrincessBabyCat Thu 01-May-14 02:03:27

My hubby grabbed my butt in a store in front of everyone sometime near the beginning of our relationship. I just about killed him, and he's always been a gentleman with me in public ever since. He told me a little later he liked that I established boundaries with him, and he still mentions the incident from time to time. So he knows, and it stuck. wink

Behind closed doors however, we both grab each other's butts. We're both ok with it, we've talked about what we like what we don't, how we like sex, how we don't. We're pretty direct and open with what we want, and probably over sharers. I think we've had to be because we're both terrible mind readers and have different communication styles. But the important thing is that we're both always on the same page, even when it upsets the other.

It's never too late to start communicating with each other. Let him know how you want to be treated when you're sick, how he should be showing affection. Some people need "scripts" like "When I'm sick, I want you to leave me alone to sleep (or whatever you need when you're sick)".

mimishimmi Thu 01-May-14 02:37:11

I had this exact same argument and DH reacted the exact same way ("make me feel like a pervert" etc) about a year ago OP grin. He'll get over it. I told him that I much prefer hugs and caresses to groping.

GarlicMaybeNot Thu 01-May-14 03:08:08

I have read all the posts but am still reeling at I was telling him I was feeling shivery and unwell and he said - "is that why your nipples are big?" What. The actual. Fuck.

The only way I can possibly interpret this is that you are nothing but a set of sexual parts to him. I know that's a horrible thing to say to a reasonably happily married woman about her husband, but ... fuck angry

I've been married to two absolute bastards and had relationships with some less than choice types, but not one has ever behaved like this. No, I tell a lie, a new boyfriend once stuck his hand down my pants in what I suppose was meant to be sexual overture. I yanked it out, feeling very much assaulted, and screamed 'what are you doing?!' Then left while he was still apologising.

Given that you seem fairly happy with other aspects of your marriage, I recommend a very clear talking-to, using the points well made by excellent posters on your thread. Don't back down or try to save his sorry ego, for heaven's sake. Good luck, and I hope your bug clears up soon.

LibraryMum8 Thu 01-May-14 03:29:46

YANBU. Dh does thus too and I think it is because his father does or did to MIL. I do say something and usually it's not met with well but ffs I don't care. If I say I feel it's disrespectful he will get huffy. Tough.

Deathraystare Thu 01-May-14 08:32:22

Well you know what to do when he has a headache - whack him enthusiastically on the head "Oh dear, poor baby".

kentishgirl Thu 01-May-14 08:41:41

I've known men like this too.

I think many men would actually love it to be randomly groped/straightforwardly propositioned by their other half.

I have a theory. Men will want sex when they are feeling fed up/sad/depressed/hurt/unwell/stressed etc as a way of cheering themselves up and feeling better. Sex improves their mood.
Women want sex when they are already feeling great/relaxed/happy. If we are not, sex is the last thing we want.

So men think that a way to cheer us up is to offer sex. But they are getting it all wrong.

diddl Thu 01-May-14 08:55:42

He gropes, you told him you don't like it & now he daren't touch you?

And you fell for that guilt trip shit & felt you should apologise?

Bloody hell!!

AskBasil Thu 01-May-14 08:57:02

"So men think that a way to cheer us up is to offer sex. But they are getting it all wrong."

I don't understand why so many women think men are incapable of reading extremely clear signals, understanding that women are human beings and empathising. It's like you think men have some kind of condition which stops them being able to function like adults in relationships with women. A condition which doesn't extend to their relationships with other men, or with women they don't feel entitled to treat disrespectfully without suffering adverse consequences.

These same men are perfectly capable of understanding what people want in a workplace or social context: they know when they can joke around with the boss and when that's not appropriate, they know how far they can push banter with their colleagues before it becomes unprofessional or harassment, in short they know how to behave, most men are perfectly adequately socialised to know what's acceptable and what's not.

It's only in their intimate relationships with women, that they choose to ignore that socialisation and women make excuses for them by saying that they don't understand, they are from Mars while we are from Venus, they can't read signals etc. Like women, men are perfectly capable of picking up verbal and non-verbal cues and atmosphere's etc., when they want to - they just choose not to because they have no respect for the women they live with.

I know that's an uncomfortable thing to acknowledge so it's easier to patronise and insult men by pretending that they are idiots who can't help it, but the sooner women recognise that men are thinking, feeling human beings just like we are, some of whom choose to pretend they aren't so they can get away with disrespectful, shitty behaviour year after year, the sooner the next generation of women can recognise this shit for what it is and not put up with it.

SixImpossible Thu 01-May-14 09:02:51

No, not all men are capable of reading non-verbal signals.

Dh and I have been together for 19y, and it was only this year that I discovered that he is almost completely unable to read facial expressions. We were doing some online tests and he scored something like 12% in facial expression interpretation, which puts him in the bottom 2% of the population, and bott

SixImpossible Thu 01-May-14 09:06:12

tom 10-15% of males.

Suddenly I understood a lot more about why I sometimes feel hurt by his apparent lack of empathy. I need to verbalise my emotions. He's not a dick, he cares for me, he just doesn't know I'm bothered.

Some men are crap at non-verbal communication. Doesn't mean they don't care.

A good relationship requires good communication. Don't damn the man because there has been a failure in communication! This is an opportunity to improve communication.

AskBasil Thu 01-May-14 09:07:40

Oh FGS.

I didn't say ALL men did I?

Not all women are capable of reading facial expressions either.

But the point stands. Men and women are perfectly capable of communicating with each other using verbal and non verbal cues. Of course there are a tiny minority who can't - people on the autistic spectrum, people in the 2% like your DH.

Are we going to argue that most men are in the 2%? Because I'm no mathematician, but the figures don't add up.

In addition, the OP has given her DH more than facial cues. She's swatted his hand away on each occasion that he has inflicted his gross behaviour on her. She has not indicated that her DH has any communication disorder that would prevent him from understanding what that means.

I wish women would stop making excuses for the deliberate bad behaviour some men (like the OP's husband) go in for.

AskBasil Thu 01-May-14 09:11:18

Also I agree that a good relationship needs good communication.

Men are as responsible for good communication as women are and good communication is as much about listening, engaging to what the other person is communicating to you, as it is about telling the other person what you want.

The OP has been telling her DH what she wants for 18 years. He's deliberately not heard her, because he doesn't want to.

Unless of course, she comes back and tells us that he has a communication disorder that he either only just got diagnosed, but he knew about and never felt that he needed to take any steps to develop strategies to function in an adult relationship in spite of the known communication difficulty.

SixImpossible Thu 01-May-14 09:19:36

My post is a general response, not aimed specifically at you, Basil.

Swatting someone's hand away is non-verbal. And if the dh communicates his likes in a vigorous physical manner, then a vigorous physical response could be misinterpreted as positive.

Just as has happened to a PP, early in our relationship dh did something in public that I disliked intensely. It was exactly what FIL does to MIL, and she accepts it. I, OTOH, did not, and I told dh so - clearly, verbally and specifically. He stopped. I'm sure he was doing it because it was how he had learned that a man shows affection - and possibly possession, too - to his wife. His ignorance, my communication.

WandaDoff Thu 01-May-14 09:22:10

All too familiar to me.

AskBasil Thu 01-May-14 09:24:56

Yes but it wasn't just your communication was it SixImpossible? It was his as well - he "heard" your communication, he acknowledged what you were communicating.

Sorry I know I'm being crotchety, I just think it's really not right that women are encouraged to always give men the benefit of the doubt about these things. Of course there are a tiny minority who might have difficulty reading non verbal cues, but that's what they are - a tiny minority. The rest of them read cues just fine, they choose to ignore them.

If men had as much trouble with communication as women believe they do, how on earth do they manage to function in the workplace? How comes they're not constantly pissing off their colleagues, misunderstanding what their boss wants them to do, not being able to read body language, atmosphere's etc. in meetings, not being able to show proper sensitivity and awareness at times of stress, problems etc. at work?

greenwinter Thu 01-May-14 09:26:01

If your partner has trouble communicating with everyone else, then fine he has communication difficulties. But if in fact he does fine at work and doesn't annoy the boss and his colleagues, has friends, and gets on reasonably fine with family, then the issue is not communication.

It is hard to face, but the reality is he knows what you want/or don't want to happen, he just doesnt care enough to listen to you or take any notice of it.

greenwinter Thu 01-May-14 09:29:11

I personally think a lot of women put up with far too much rubbish, just to maintain a relationship.

AiryFairyHairyAndScary Thu 01-May-14 09:31:17

Ice been with my lovely, caring DH for thirty years and he can still get it wrong sometimes and I'm sure I do too. He probably saw the 'groping' as something playful and didn't realise how unpleasant you found it. I actually don't think that's a biggie confused.
However, his sulking about being called on it would piss me right off. It's really childish and a bit pathetic. I wouldn't apologise to him.

What about getting him to read this thread? He will then see how very, very reasonable you have been.

Sneezecakesmum Thu 01-May-14 09:32:18

You've waited 18 years to tell him you find the groping a turn off?

It took me 5 minutes!

What you just need to say to him is you are sorry for saying something in a way that upset him, but that grabbing and squeezing tender bits of your anatomy is not a turn on, ever! Try grabbing his testicles (hard) and ask him if he is turned on.

Explain that he's more likely to get the intimacy he craves by cuddling and tenderness.

He's not alone, most men seem to have this urge to grope. He just needs to be educated to respect you and your body.

greenwinter Thu 01-May-14 09:34:47

AiryFairy - If you kept touching your Husband in a certain way, and he kept swatting your hand away physically in an annoyed manner, would you think continuing to touch him in that way is just playful?

greenwinter Thu 01-May-14 09:36:32

"He's not alone, most men seem to have this urge to grope. He just needs to be educated to respect you and your body."

So most men don't respect women and their bodies? Actually that is probably true. But why would you want to be with someone who doesn't respect you or your body?

AskBasil Thu 01-May-14 09:37:09

Nearly every morning two dull male colleagues bond over football or some other trivial sport. The more junior one chooses his moment carefully, when the irascible old more senior one, has a little break in his work and is relaxed and open to social conversation. He doesn't start talking about football or the rugby or whatever it is, when the guy's in the middle of analysing figures, or constructing a report, he knows exactly when the window of informal networking is available to him. If he didn't, he'd get short shrift and his networking would not be networking, it would be interruption. He knows this. Like most men, he's not just capable of interpreting the lie of the land, he's actually very skillful at it. This sort of situation is a standard thing in workplaces up and down the country. If men were as terrible about reading non-verbal cues as people want us to think, the productivity in workplaces would be a lot less than it is, with people being constantly interrupted by men with communication difficulties unable to get on with their work. grin But those same men go back to their wives, grope them and pretend they don't understand when the cues are given in a domestic contest, though they understand them well enough in a work context.

And yet still women make excuses for them.

AskBasil Thu 01-May-14 09:38:02

He needs to be educated?

How old is he, 5?

He's responsible for his own education. If he hasn't educated himself to respect his wife and her bodily integrity, what sort of man is he?

BuzzardBird Thu 01-May-14 09:43:40

Gross, it sounds gross. I couldn't be with someone that pawed me. <shudder>

Objection Thu 01-May-14 09:44:04

My OH does/did this a lot.
In the end I snapped at him, I was sick of him constantly pulling at me and groping me. He stopped all contact for a while and when I questioned it he said he didn't want to annoy me with touching etc etc. I told him to stop being a moron and just learn when and where things are appropriate. He's slowly getting to grips with reading my mood first. Before he used to think me saying "No!" or "Get off!" was being playful! Up until I had to scream it at him, and then I was "over reacting".
It still happens a bit but he's much better.

It's quite flattering really, when you think about it wink

greenwinter Thu 01-May-14 09:47:44

Objection - Being sexually harassed is not flattering.

SixImpossible Thu 01-May-14 10:10:45

If men are so good at communication, why is it that we have to teach our sons, explicitly, that, when a woman says "No", she means "No", and not "Oooo, yes, please!"?

greenwinter Thu 01-May-14 10:14:03

Because so many are teaching our boys the opposite.

SixImpossible Thu 01-May-14 10:15:30

Clarify?

greenwinter Thu 01-May-14 10:18:52

Films or TV series for example that teach boys that women say no at first, but if you persist, they enjoy it. Once you start looking for it, you will notice that this is a common scenario in "romantic" scenes, including programmes teenagers watch.

Lancelottie Thu 01-May-14 10:19:59

how on earth do they manage to function in the workplace? How comes they're not constantly pissing off their colleagues, misunderstanding what their boss wants them to do, not being able to read body language, atmospheres etc. in meetings, not being able to show proper sensitivity and awareness at times of stress, problems etc. at work?

Oh dear.

Actually all the males in our family have trouble with all the above.

Maybe I need to cut DH more slack rather than less (my gentle re-education veered rather towards 'How bloody thick are you not to get that doing something I dislike doesn't turn me on?'

greenwinter Thu 01-May-14 10:27:34

i wouldn't cut him more slack. If he genuinely has problems with communication, he needs to take responsibility and get help for that. Contact for example Aspergers organisations and see if they run communication courses.

MistressDeeCee Thu 01-May-14 10:29:49

What stands out for me is that you were telling him you were unwell and he just bypassed that and went on about your nipples. That would have me in a rage tbh its nice he still fancies you that way but bloody hell, talk about insensitive! I would say Im shock at him being this crass but tbh Im not really, a lot of men can be really upset at what they see as rejection. You've been together for years, so just tell him how you feel I can't see why he won't understand. If he does continue to be huffy about it that would seem like bloody-mindeness for the sake of it. Tell him, don't make it a long drawn-out explanation either. You don't have to apologise for not appreciating groping, or for being ill.

HillyHolbrook Thu 01-May-14 10:36:05

YANBU to let him know you don't like something. Even if you've let him do it for years, you're allowed to change your mind. When I first met DP we would do things that I hate now, and when I went off them, I said 'no let's not do that' and he said 'okay, let's try this instead' and vice versa.

Let him get over himself, if he is decent he will stop groping you and do things you both like. If he continues sulking because he can't squeeze your boobies anymore, you know you've married a manchildwink

Reassure him you don't think he's a sex offender, you just don't like it, but you like when he does this and that so he could do that more?
That type of thing

Lancelottie Thu 01-May-14 10:37:05

Thx Greenwinter; Aspergers is more than a possibility, and he does realise that. (It's poss for both of us, in fact, and we're already up to our ears in coping with our son's ASD needs. Sigh.)

I suppose it's just that I'd prefer any future partner of DS to be a little kinder than I was about things that might be a genuine communication problem.

Meanwhile, I get very boring (to both boys, and increasingly my daughter) on the subject of 'If someone's not obviously welcoming it, you don't bloodydo it.'

MandarinCheesecake Thu 01-May-14 10:44:23

My Dh used to do this, many moons ago. Along with making sexual innuendos with everything I did.

I too used to bat him away and tell him to stop. In the end like others it took me blowing my top to make him realise that it is not a good way to communicate that he wanted me. He reacted very much like your dh, passed the blame to me.
I explained to him There's nothing worse than being lunged at every time you move, that its not nice having to wait until he was out of the house for me to have a bath or shower (apparently that meant I was up for it) and that I was sick of every conversation we had being used to turn the subject back to sex!!!

It made me feel cheap and only good for one thing and that he didn't respect me in any way shape or form.
He genuinely thought that he was showing he loved me!!
And said that if he didn't do this I would start to wonder why!!! hmm
I asked him if any of the lunging and groping ever led to a wild session in the bedroom and the penny finally dropped.
He backed off and hasn't done it since.

You should not feel guilty, nor should you apologise. You both need to sit down and talk, make it very clear to him what is acceptable and what isn't.
He will get over it but at the moment his ego has taken a bashing and he is actually feeling guilty as he knows deep down he was wrong to carry on and has pushed you too far.

If he respects you he will realise what a knobber he has been!!

Waltermittythesequel Thu 01-May-14 11:35:42

It's quite flattering really, when you think about it

Please tell me this was a joke?!

BuzzardBird Thu 01-May-14 11:41:41

I was hoping it was Walter but I am getting the impression it wasn't. Dear God.

Have only read OP's posts, so apologies if I'm covering old ground.

I'm a little bit sceptical about your husband being 'upset' - or at least about being upset in the way you mean upset. He's probably a bit miffed that he's been pulled up on his behaviour, and annoyed that he can't continue it now that he's been bluntly told you don't like it. But upset? Nah. Upset would only come into it if he felt any empathy for how his behaviour has made you feel for the past 18 years, and I don't see that here. What I am seeing in his being "really quiet since then" is a sulk. It would be nice if it was reflectiveness, or even genuine upset, but it looks like a sulk to me.

"Says I made him feel like a sex offender and doesn't know how to touch me / initiate sex now. " Oh dear. So his behaviour is at fault but you're supposed to be the one who feels guilty? And it's working too - you respond by apologising for using the word 'grope' and are now thinking "I don't really know how to make things right with him". Well, first off, 'grope' is not a loaded word and it very accurately describes what he did. If he finds the word loaded, that's his problem; because he DID grope you. Or does he think it can't be groping because he owns is married to youangry? Secondly, it is for him to make things right with you! He is in the wrong. FFS, - in what was is lunging at your nipples meant to stop you feeling unwell? It's just so ludicrous a reaction to you telling him you're not feeling well. Ludicrous and disrespectful and downright creepy. Stop thinking that you have "really knocked his confidence." You haven't, because he's feeling confident enough to try and guilt-trip you into saying nothing next time he gropes you.

"So WIBU to tell him what I thought? Do other people object to this kind of thing? Have I been spending to much time on MN and getting daft ideas that speaking your mind is a good idea? And any suggestions for how I make this right with him?"
No, you were not being unreasonable. I would certainly object to his behaviour. Spending time on MN has been good for you, presumably if it had been around 18 years ago you'd have nipped this unappealling behaviour of his in the bud. How to make this right with him? Tell him to grow the fuck up, stop sulking and get a grip (but not of your boobs).

GarlicMaybeNot Thu 01-May-14 13:13:18

Good post, Where.

Some of these excusing replies are incredible!
If the dh communicates his likes in a vigorous physical manner, then a vigorous physical response could be misinterpreted as positive

Oh, I get it hmm So, like, if he goes "Phwoar! Nipples!" and lunges at your aunt's breasts, and she pushes him off, this means she wants him to go in for another grab? That figures ... oh, wait, no it doesn't!

As everyone with common sense has been saying, a man who knows what behaviour is offensive (and is therefore not in a residential institution) must know he's behaving offensively towards his wife. Either that or he doesn't consider his wife 'people'.

kentishgirl Thu 01-May-14 13:18:57

My reply wasn't meant to be an excusing one, although I can see it probably came across that way. The OPs husband behaved really horribly and if a man did that to me, I'd hit the roof, and sod any resulting sulking.

lollerskates Thu 01-May-14 13:23:07

Where's William of Ockham when you need him?

Bahhhhhumbug Thu 01-May-14 13:24:23

My DH used to have a habit of grabbing a boob or nipple if I leant across him for anything or both hands were occupied because I was tying my hair up or washing up. I absolutely loathe that opportunist touching you when you are not in a position to stop it. It is sort of controlling or takes control away from you over your own body somehow. I put him right though and he did apologise and stop it immediately.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Thu 01-May-14 13:37:06

Says I made him feel like a sex offender

Tell him to stop acting like one then.

Waltermittythesequel Thu 01-May-14 13:42:29

Buzzard it is truly depressing here sometimes, and I see MN as one of the more enlightened Internet forums.

It's been ingrained into people to think that women's bodies are there for male consumption, as is evident by some posts on this thread.

If the dh communicates his likes in a vigorous physical manner, then a vigorous physical response could be misinterpreted as positive

Missed this little gem of victim blaming. FFS!

SixImpossible Thu 01-May-14 13:50:37

FFS back!

I'm not victim-blaming. I'm explaining a lack of understanding between people.

Of course he is wrong to do something that upsets her. It doesn't mean he is a misogynistic bastard.

GarlicMaybeNot Thu 01-May-14 13:52:08

I've just remembered a little work incident. A man of the old-school, dirty jokes type, grabbed my breast during a conversation in the office. I shoved his hand off and said "Don't do that!" I wouldn't have made a formal complaint, as I reckoned that was enough, but someone else did. He was disciplined. The hearing genuinely improved his behaviour, and I hope all the gropey husbands mentioned here will improve after a similarly clear explanation.

GarlicMaybeNot Thu 01-May-14 13:54:17

It doesn't mean he is a misogynistic bastard.

It doesn't mean he's a bastard, but he is a misogynist. He treats his woman like a piece of sexual property, despite 18 years of vigorous physical discouragement.

Waltermittythesequel Thu 01-May-14 13:54:36

I'm afraid that's exactly what it makes him.

Any man who thinks he has free reign to grope a woman's breasts, especially when she's ill and weaker than usual is exactly that.

And like I said, I really think it's ingrained into people.

Why should the onus be on her in any way? Why should she have to communicate that her body is not there for his groping pleasure?

This is something that he should know, not something that has to he mansplained to him.

And then making her feel guilty, presumably so she won't object the next time? That very much makes him a misogynistic bastard. With bells on.

BuzzardBird Thu 01-May-14 14:02:57

yes, that

SixImpossible Thu 01-May-14 14:03:29

Actually, dh does have few reign to grope my breasts, I have told him so - verbally, explicitly. And when he groped them whe I did not like it (pregnant!) I told him to stop - verbally, explicitly - and why. He did not grope them again until I was ready. He found out when I was ready by asking me.

As far as the OP's dh is concerned, he has been doing something consistently for 18 years, she has been responding consistently for 18 years, and that's the status quo. Why should it change? He hasn't noticed anything wrong. Perhaps he's unobservant. Perhaps he needed to be told - explicitly, verbally.

The fact that he was insensitive enough to do it while she was ill and had clearly told him so is nasty and selfish.

JohnFarleysRuskin Thu 01-May-14 14:07:36

I've had a few long term relationships, and a few casual ones. Do you know none of the men groped my breasts/genitals when I was telling them I was sick or unloading the dishwasher or when it was clearly unwelcome at all? And I have quite nice breasts, apparently!!

These men must have been really unusual, highly intuitive characters with excellent communication skills and capable of enormous self-restraint.

Or perhaps they were just normal.

Waltermittythesequel Thu 01-May-14 14:13:12

These men must have been really unusual, highly intuitive characters with excellent communication skills and capable of enormous self-restraint

Or perhaps they were just normal

And with a shred of respect for women.

Waltermittythesequel Thu 01-May-14 14:14:21

she has been responding consistently for 18 years

Yes, by slapping his hand away and when she does finally pluck up the courage to tell him explicitly, he punishes her by withdrawing from her, sulking, making her feel apologetic and having her minimise what he did.

bronya Thu 01-May-14 14:17:02

It's a man thing. I had that conversation some time ago. Told my DH it was a right turn-off and if he wanted sex, there were other ways to go about it. That a good cuddle was a nice start, and various other romantic-type things. He has stopped the physical stuff but now doesn't initiate anything at all! I think I need to pin the info on 'how to get your lady in a romantic mood' somewhere high where the toddler can't get it!

AskBasil Thu 01-May-14 14:26:36

"As far as the OP's dh is concerned, he has been doing something consistently for 18 years, she has been responding consistently for 18 years, and that's the status quo. Why should it change? He hasn't noticed anything wrong. Perhaps he's unobservant. Perhaps he needed to be told - explicitly, verbally."

Well he has been hasn't he? And he's angry about it.

I think if you think that 18 years of someone ignoring very clear signals is normal behaviour, then you have very low aspirations for people's behaviour.

AskBasil Thu 01-May-14 14:27:45

"If men are so good at communication, why is it that we have to teach our sons, explicitly, that, when a woman says "No", she means "No", and not "Oooo, yes, please!"?"

Because as Greenwinter says, the rest of our culture is telling men that when a woman says no she means yes.

Though men who aren't interested in reserving the option to rape women without being held accountable for it, don't seem to have any difficulty with knowing that No means No irrespective of whether the person saying it has a penis or a vagina. It's only men who want to keep the option of rape available to them, who pretend they don't know what No means.

And men with genuine communication difficulties like aspergers etc., don't have a problem with recognising No as meaning No, because they tend to take things literally and don't assume that words have different meanings depending on the genitalia of the speaker.

Waltermittythesequel Thu 01-May-14 14:28:55

It's a man thing

That's actually quite an insult to the respectful, decent men out there who wouldn't treat their partners with such disdain, or like theirs for the groping!

AskBasil Thu 01-May-14 14:30:19

It really isn't a man thing.

It's a creepy man thing. Men who aren't creeps don't do it, because they know it's creepy.

gertiegusset Thu 01-May-14 14:32:40

Well it's not a bloody 'man thing' here.

diddl Thu 01-May-14 14:37:43

"It's a man thing"hmm

I suppose it'll continue for as long as there are women willing to put up with it though.

CorporateRockWhore Thu 01-May-14 14:39:14

bronya No it isn't. It's a disrespectful, unpleasant, pervy wanker thing. Don't dare lump my husband in with people who act in that way.

And Mandarin I can't believe you had to wait until your husband left the house to have a shower? That is not normal behaviour. In fact it's disgusting that you ever had to live like that.

WTF. This thread! angry

Jayne35 Thu 01-May-14 14:48:36

DH and I are a very touchy feely couple, neither of us mind the playful touching, and would certainly say if we did as very communicative with each other. The only time I'm not keen is when he does it in his sleep and wakes me up....I have to wake him and point out what he is doing! But, we can laugh about it together the next day. I can see that not everyone is happy with it though, as we are all different. Though if I was ill, DH would like to cuddle (in a non sexual way).

TillyTellTale Thu 01-May-14 14:56:15

It's not Asperger's Syndrome. I have Asperger's Syndrome. Many of my friends have Asperger's Syndrome. We comprehend "stop touching me, I don't like it" fine.

I once had a conversation very similar to the OP, with an Aspie boyfriend who was groping me too much. You know what? He stopped it. He was upset he'd upset me.

lollerskates Thu 01-May-14 15:13:34

Is there ANY OTHER CONTEXT in which men cannot understand the meaning of the word "no," or is it ONLY when women use the word with reference to access to their vaginas that it becomes utterly opaque?

DoctorTwo Thu 01-May-14 15:18:02

It's a man thing

As others have pointed out, it really isn't. It's a lack of respect thing.

Waltermittythesequel Thu 01-May-14 15:24:48

Is there ANY OTHER CONTEXT in which men cannot understand the meaning of the word "no," or is it ONLY when women use the word with reference to access to their vaginas that it becomes utterly opaque?

I would say definitely the latter.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that none of these 'playful' husbands and partners are grabbing their friends' penises without their permission. angry

SixImpossible Thu 01-May-14 15:27:43

*It's not Asperger's Syndrome. I have Asperger's Syndrome. Many of my friends have Asperger's Syndrome. We comprehend "
That's exactly what I'm trying to say!

For 18 y she didn't say "stop touching me, I don't like it" - she implied it. And he did not understand. That's why he's got the huff. Of course he has to change his behaviour now that he has finally heard what she wants. To do otherwise would be nasty and entitled.

TillyTellTale Thu 01-May-14 15:35:02

Well, so far, he's taking the nasty and entitled route, to the point his poor wife is second-guessing herself and making a thread on mumsnet about whether she was wrong to ask him to stop it.

SlimJiminy Thu 01-May-14 15:54:46

An ex of mine was being a prick once after a few too many beers. He groped me as we were walking down the street. I punched him in the face. We split up not long after.

You are absolutely right to tell him how it makes you feel and if he whinges about being treated as a sex offender than tell him not to behave like one.

GarlicMaybeNot Thu 01-May-14 15:58:13

Hope brotherhood comes back to her thread smile

AskBasil Thu 01-May-14 16:04:36

Am I missing something?

Has the OP said her ex has aspergers syndrome?

brotherhoodofspam Thu 01-May-14 16:23:27

Yes, I'm still here. Lots of really helpful suggestions for how to phrase things, thanks everyone. particularly liked "Don't touch my sexual parts, touch me" . and DH doesn't have Asbergers or other communication problems. Actually has a job which requires a great deal of sensitivity and communication skills which by lots of different accounts he's very good at. I think it's really this one area where he's stuck in adolescence. Well hopefully not any more.smile

TillyTellTale Thu 01-May-14 16:26:15

Other people have implied or outright said it could be the issue.

turgiday Thu 01-May-14 16:27:49

Tilly - There are always women on here making excuses for men whose behaviour is shit.

IrianofWay Thu 01-May-14 16:35:08

I am guessing he is upset because after 18 years you told him, forcibly, that you didn't like something he had always done without knowing you didn't like it. That would make me feel fairly crap too.

However he clearly needed to be told. And I can understand how belittled you felt when you were telling him something important that you wanted taking seriously and he groped you.

AskBasil Thu 01-May-14 16:35:21

LOL just noticed my Freudian slip

brotherhoodofspam Thu 01-May-14 16:43:40

Irian - I know what you mean but as other posters have said I have made it pretty clear that I don't like over the years, just perhaps not as forcefully as I did on Saturday.

Nanny0gg Thu 01-May-14 16:58:26

The stories of women having their breasts/nipples/bums groped day after day in their own homes make my SKIN CRAWL. It's not about being sexy, it's about entitlement.

^^
This.

And to do it when she's poorly is beyond a joke.

JohnFarleysRuskin Thu 01-May-14 17:00:35

Seriously though, people here don't find it absolutely bizarre that you could say to someone "I feel really shivery and unwell," and their response is: - "is that why your nipples are big?" and proceed to grab them? I mean, some people see that as just 'being a man'?

He's not a doctor, is he? Can you imagine!?

Op, you don't genuinely believe he is scared too touch you now, do you? It sounds like he is fucked off that he has been told he doesn't have free reign of your body.

weatherall Thu 01-May-14 17:00:49

He sounds very immature.

Does he treat you with respect in other ways?

CruCru Thu 01-May-14 17:11:19

I used to have a boyfriend (when I was 17) who would wake up with a hard on and jam it into my back (at 6am). He was a bit surprised when I said I didn't like it. Tosser.

Itsfab Thu 01-May-14 17:12:15

Recently I saw a sign for sale on a stall it said

"Sometimes no means maybe"

I can't remember the other two lines but it made me pissed off to see such nonsense and yes, I get that it was probably meant to be funny hmm.

PrincessBabyCat Thu 01-May-14 17:17:30

I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that none of these 'playful' husbands and partners are grabbing their friends' penises without their permission.

Uhm... They're probably not grabbing other women either. Or kissing them, giving them long hugs, sharing intimate secrets... I'm not saying groping is the way to go, but generally most people treat their DP's differently than their friends.

Also, my husband is playful, but I'm fine with it. But he also knows when it's ok to do it. Like when we're playfully flirting or being coy with each other. He certainly doesn't do it when I'm sick or in a cranky mood. He knows when to give me hugs and cuddles. Honestly his first course of action when I've had a bad day is a feet massage. He just shows love through touching, and he knows how to touch appropriately. Men are perfectly capable of showing love through appropriate touching that their wives are ok with.

The difference between these guys being "playful" and my husband doing it is that their wives are NOT ok with it, and that makes it not ok. There's no respect. If someone doesn't like you doing something, it doesn't matter if it's groping or just tugging on their hair. I hate it when people touch my hair, my husband loves touching my hair. But you know what? He doesn't do it to me, because he knows I hate it. You don't purposely do something to the other person that you know they don't like. It's not that hard to get.

Sunnydaysablazeinhope Thu 01-May-14 17:22:02

Mine does that. Drives me bats. Used to try to fondle a breast as we watched tv. First I was polite. Then implied I wasn't, moved, etc to make the hand drop. Later I swatted it. After a year I jumped off the sofa screaming DO THAT AGAIN and I WILL CHOP IT OFF

Took nobody tells you how to handle sexual etiquette. So your polite til the point you Bobbit him. For me it's the 'possession' implied. Like it's not my boob but his.

Thing is if I did that to his penis he would think Xmas had come. Not to excuse them but I really do think men think differently. If you ain't blunt they just don't get it. Children!

turgiday Thu 01-May-14 17:32:16

They ate not children. They just think they can ignore that you don't want him to touch you like that, and you will give in.

gertiegusset Thu 01-May-14 17:34:23

Men will only 'think differently' if women let them.
They aren't children, they are adult human beings who should know boundaries.
Most intelligent and considerate men wouldn't continue with behaviour that their partner didn't like.
But I do agree about the possession implications.

SmallPianist Thu 01-May-14 17:46:10

Hiya. I'm new here. I've joined because my gf is addicted. I believe the standard behaviour is to just chip in, so for what it's worth:

Many men I know are led by their instincts. If we like someone we want to touch them. That doesn't mean we should, even in a long term relationship, I'm just saying that most of us WANT to, most of the time, especially if we have real feelings for our partners.

I personally like to touch my girlfriend often, though it's never seemed inappropriate. It's important for us men to let our GFs know that we fancy them, and a gentle touch, squeeze of the hand, kiss on the cheek is enough to reinforce that sentiment. To quote Monty Python 'You don't have to leap straight for the clitoris like a bull at a gate' though that is many men's basest impulse, and I think a gentle shoulder rub, or a waist-circling cuddle from behind can be universally appropriate (as long as you're not in trouble with her) and will also give the opportunity to find out how she's feeling at that particular moment.

If she were ill, for instance, I wouldn't, for the simple reason that if I were ill, I wouldn't be up for it either. Sex, and all the preamble that leads to it, is something you both have to want, and while I want to do it pretty much all the time (she's just delightful), I always try and be sensitive to what she wants. Ultimately I don't want anything that isn't offered freely and with enthusiasm (though it doesn't stop me broaching the subject verbally as often as I think i can get away with it - she's become a dab hand at gently swatting me down without me feeling rejected, hurt or neglected)

What this comes down to, if you ask me, is sensitivity. If you care about your partner, you'll be sensitive to her needs and feelings, you'll pay attention, and in doing so you'll get to a point where you just know whether or not the time is right. You definitely won't sulk about not getting sex, and you won't play a manipulation game to get your own way even if your partner is poorly.

That's just bad form I reckon.

wasabipeanut Thu 01-May-14 17:55:41

I'm really shocked at this. My 6 year old knows that when he's hooning around in the playground playing chase he doesn't grab hold of people. If they are playing fighting/wrestling games (they do apparently) it's only cool as long as everyone is smiling. He can read non verbal cues. He knows what is appropriate and he knows that you can't touch people without their permission.

What's so hard about this concept for an adult to grasp if a 6 year old can manage it? Honestly, if my DH grabbed at me at the wrong moment I'd tell him to fuck off. But he never has. In fact he doesn't grope or lunge at all. He does read me to know if I fancy a cuddle or kiss which may or may not lead somewhere. If he lunged while I was ill I honestly don't know what I'd do. If be so sad and disappointed. If either of my sons behave in this manner when they're older it would would want to disown them.

I really don't believe this "men don't understand" stuff. Of course they fucking do. They don't need it spelling out and even if they do it should only ever happen once.

brotherhoodofspam Thu 01-May-14 17:55:52

Thanks Pianist. Good to hear a male perspective and what you're saying certainly makes sense.

gertiegusset Thu 01-May-14 18:04:13

Always interesting to get a male perspective, lucky this was the first thread you noticed.

VinoTime Thu 01-May-14 18:06:00

If I was feeling run down and a partner of mine responded by groping my nipples, I can assure you my foot would have made contact with his face. It's not exactly sentimental, is it? I mean, there's an ocean between honking my tits and stroking my hair affectionately to comfort me.

Tell him titties are for play time, OP. Also, tell him to stop sulking like a surly teen with a bruised ego. It's hardly an attractive quality.

PenguinDancer Thu 01-May-14 18:10:46

Oh dear, better check DP doesn't mind me groping him. Never thought anything of it. I really enjoy it when he grabs me, and enjoy a good grope myself.

But you should always be able to say what you're comfortable with.

Its a massive shame for you both that its taken 18 years though sad

turgiday Thu 01-May-14 18:25:37

She has said she doesn't like it. Her DP just ignored her.

HavannaSlife Thu 01-May-14 18:40:57

I would really hate that. The thought makes me really angry, although that could be my dislike of nipple touchind due to bf.

It sounds likr you have made it clear with your words and actions over the years, he just hasnt listened! Now you have been more forceful about it and he knows he can no longer get away with it hes not happy.

Its tough, hes juat going to have to get used to it. If as you say in every other way he is a nice guy he will be fine.

If he continues to sulk and carry on it then he's obviously not as nice as you think. You've been with him 18 years how do you think he will react once hes gotten over his initial sulk?

HavannaSlife Thu 01-May-14 18:43:00

And did you say this hsppened saturday? And has he still got the hump?

Thats a long time to carry on sulking if uou ask me

HavannaSlife Thu 01-May-14 18:44:09

Sorry about typos im on phone with a big crack down the screen and cant always see what im writing grin

Pimpf Thu 01-May-14 18:50:09

The trouble I have with dh is:

If he's tired, sex helps
If he stressed, sex helps
Ifs he's worried, sex helps
If he's feeling under the weather, sex helps
If he's in a good mode, sex helps

You're getting the picture here, so if sex is a cure all for him, he doesn't (rather didn't, he does now!) understand why it wasn't the same for me. It's taken him a while to realise that what to him is a loving gesture is constant pressure for me and a total turn off.

Yanbu op to have had the discussion. With him, but I think for you to go back and make any kind of apology would give him the wrong message again. I find now that I have more opportunity to initiate sex and any loving gestures and feel a lot better about it all.

brotherhoodofspam Thu 01-May-14 19:54:44

Pimf I think you've hit the nail on the head. He feels sex relaxes him when he's tired, stressed etc whereas for me these are the times I'm least likely to be wanting it. A loving, no strings attached cuddle would go down so much better. I have tried to communicate this over the years but have probably not been as blunt about it as I need to be. Have picked up some useful phrases on here though and in fact this thread has helped clarify in my mind a lot of stuff that's been bugging me.

brotherhoodofspam Thu 01-May-14 19:59:13

Havana, he's not sulking any more. I don't think he was really sulking before, just quiet and kind of sad. (though some might call that sulking). nor has there been any further attempt at physical contact. Think I'm with going to have to make the 1st move there now though not till I'm good and readygrin

ThisIsLID Thu 01-May-14 20:01:37

smile All going the right way then.

Yes just wait.

You don't have to make it up to him, he can think a bit about how to be with you.

Liked little piano player's post ( or a what was his name again?)

matildasquared Thu 01-May-14 20:44:19

"Many men I know are led by their instincts. If we like someone we want to touch them."

What a ridiculous thing to say. Everyone is led by their instincts. Everyone gets those primitive urges to touch something/someone appealing, all day long.

I'm really not interested in another "But men have needs, dear" lecture. Even if it is followed by some self-congratulatory nonsense about you actually show normal social skills with your partner.

turgiday Thu 01-May-14 21:18:24

My instinct is to punch sexist idiotic men I meet. I manage to restrain myself.

AiryFairyHairyAndScary Thu 01-May-14 21:27:13

Lol, Pimpf that is spot on. grin

parentalunit Thu 01-May-14 21:34:37

Maybe he was playing back all the times he had grabbed you before, and cringing!!! I know I would be, if in his shoes!

Hope he gets his confidence back, be nice and don't worry, if the grabbing doesn't lead to sex, he'll soon realize and stop it.

Is there something you do like? Perhaps redirect him to that? "I like it when x, it really makes me feel y". Blokes are (generally) not great at reading minds (neither are women) so lead him gently to behavior you do appreciate.

and if that doesn't work, start grabbing his bollocks and see how he likes it

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Thu 01-May-14 22:15:32

"Many men I know are led by their instincts. If we like someone we want to touch them."

^^if you (generic you) are touching someone with your pleasure in mind, rather than theirs... Why?

Hullygully Thu 01-May-14 22:19:02

Personally I am really grateful that smallpianist has taken the time to mansplain at such great length

gertiegusset Thu 01-May-14 22:24:48

Yes, we really should be grateful to him, I suspect it's his bedtime now though.

UncleT Thu 01-May-14 22:28:05

matilda perhaps you could bother reading the rest of what he wrote? Your summary assumption of what came after was not accurate or fair.

CorporateRockWhore Thu 01-May-14 22:28:50

Hully especially when it was just nonsense.

Men don't want to have sex all of the time, not all men, they just don't. That's as sensible as saying no woman wants to have sex ever. In fact, I am wasting the little tips of my fingers typing this, I'm going to stop.

Hullygully Thu 01-May-14 22:30:32

They do Corporate. It's biology. But the sensitive ones restrain themselves.

turgiday Thu 01-May-14 22:31:58

Are you all being mean to the menz again?

Hullygully Thu 01-May-14 22:43:29

I love menz, just so long as they are sensitive and control their wild primal biologically destined mananas

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Thu 01-May-14 22:52:30

Poor menz sad They just want to grope boobs in peace. With impunity.

SmallPianist Thu 01-May-14 22:53:07

Hi Matildasquared.

Bit harsh, but fair comment from your perspective I guess. Not sure if you're just trolling me, but I would like to say a couple of things about it in response.

Firstly I wasn't being self congratulatory, and it's a little hurtful to read really. I'm by no means a relationship expert, ask my gf, but I thought it was important that I share what I thought was the norm in order to establish my position relative to the subject of this thread. I advocate a caring approach, and try to be unselfish. That's not self congratulatory. That's just my perspective, told by examples of recent experience.

And of course if you quote me out of context you are going to make me look like a dick, so I'll quote myself properly:

"Many men I know are led by their instincts. If we like someone we want to touch them. That doesn't mean we should."

You missed off the important last bit, so not that ridiculous really.

And yes, many men I know are led by their instincts, or (to qualify more accurately so that you can't be intentionally obtuse about the point I was making) let their actions be instinct driven. Many don't. I don't think everyone is led by their instinct but rather their intellect, and to say so is a glib generalisation that doesn't take into account the massive and complex variety of personality and relationship interactions we're discussing here.

You wrote "I'm really not interested in another "But men have needs, dear" lecture."

Well that's not really what I was saying was it. You seem to have entirely missed the point of my post, and seem to think I was defending him in some way. Quite the opposite.

In case anyone else is labouring under the misapprehension that I think a). unwanted contact and b). manipulation through sulking are OK, I don't.

Having read further comments since, I think the dude in question may just have made the mistake of thinking that's what's good for him is good for her, and reacted as I imagine I might if I'm told something I've been doing and been allowed to do for a long time is wrong. I'd probly sulk a bit too, so I stand corrected on that count.

Ultimately i don't (can't) know what it's like to be the people who this thread centres around, was just suggesting possibilities is all.

smile

turgiday Thu 01-May-14 22:57:31

I hate menz. Men can be different, but menz are always misogynists.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Thu 01-May-14 23:06:32

The boobz are there just for the menz... Evo-psych says so. Without evo-psych, where would we be? Wimmen having bodily integrity?! confused

matildasquared Fri 02-May-14 04:14:18

Wow, thanks for explaining that men are not led by their instincts but that they let their actions be instinct-driven! That myth is one of the cornerstones of the kind of misogynist nonsense that the OP is experiencing. (That's why you're finding yourself derided here.)

Also, have a look at what you wrote: "It's not okay! But he may have just made a mistake...I'd probably sulk too..."

There are absolute reams of writing out there on this topic. Instead of barging into a discussion in order to provide everyone with a lecture on men have a thirty-second google around misogynist myths relating to women's bodily integrity.

And no, I'm not going to provide links for you. I just can't be dealing with people pretending not to understand basic concepts of misogyny/feminism. There's no excuse.

GarlicMaybeNot Fri 02-May-14 05:29:50

Well, to be fair to Pianist, I doubt that 'misogynist myths' and 'bodily integrity' were the first phrases to his mind as he pondered the issue.

Whether or not you speak the language of social scientists, Pianist, you are aware it's rude to grab at bits of other people's bodies whenever you feel like it. So rude, in fact, it's illegal. That's bodily integrity for you: everybody has the right to decide what happens to their own body.

You do seem to have a little trouble with the fact that this applies even when the grabee is a woman, and even when she is your partner. Girlfriends have bodily integrity too! Who knew?! In extension of that, said grabee pushing you away is a clear indication she doesn't want to be grabbed. Misogynist myths: Women love it really (being assaulted) and Women don't know what they want (until a man forces her to take it.)

Obviously, repeatedly pushing the grabber away means she doesn't like being grabbed. It's not necessary to deliver a carefully-honed speech on the matter ... well, it was for OP and that's the problem!

Have you heard the correct definition of consent in a sexual context? Ongoing, enthusiastic consent. I'm sure you've experienced some of that in your time smile Apply it to all of your sexual interactions, please! Because women are people, too.

GarlicMaybeNot Fri 02-May-14 05:29:56

^ ^ That was womansplaining, by the way. You're welcome.

lollerskates Fri 02-May-14 05:35:20

I'd probably sulk too...

Well then you'd probably get called a cunt on the internet, too.

GarlicMaybeNot Fri 02-May-14 05:36:04

grin

JapaneseMargaret Fri 02-May-14 07:38:56

I love these dudes who come on here (inevitably somebody's boyfriend), to enlighten us, as of they speak on behalf of all men.

They speak on behalf of themselves. At a push, themselves and their like-minded mates.

They do not speak on behalf of mankind.

It wouldn't even OCCUR to me to think that I could state, 'women think X about Y', because I don't have personal insight into what women think.

So the fact that some men both feel that they can speak on behalf of their entire gender, and that we will unquestioningly lap it up is ... amusing.

It's the very definition of mansplaining.

AnyFucker Fri 02-May-14 07:54:50

SP, you need to understand one thing. We don't care what you think. smile

Hullygully Fri 02-May-14 08:29:11

I differ with AF on this one.

I am interested to hear what you think, any opinion can be interesting, it's your manner that's at fault and raising the hackles.

CouldntGiveAMonkeysToss Fri 02-May-14 08:53:52

YANBU at all op. The "being scared to touch you" is making it all about him and guilting you in to allowing it. My DH used to come up behind me as I was washing the dishes or cooking and start kissing my shoulders and groping my boobs and fanny. I told him multiple times to stop (I have been sexually abused in the past which he knows). He would do the "I can't even touch my own wife" blah blah blah whilst looking all hurt that I'd "rejected" him. One time he said I made him feel like a sex offender so I pointed out that would be because he was one, just because I'm married to him doesn't give him the right to grope me whenever he feels like it. I hated having my back to him incase he did it, it felt likeca sexual attack to me not something a loving husband does.
He did see my point of view, apologised and no longer does it.
There's a massive difference between being cuddled up and one thing leading to another to someone just grabbing you when you're in the middle of doing something else.
It shows a complete lack of respect and consideration. I'd have left DH if he hadn't stopped.

CinnabarRed Fri 02-May-14 09:01:52

Does anyone else get the "I don't realise I'm doing it" line?

I can't find a good response to that one. I'd appreciate suggestions.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Fri 02-May-14 09:11:36

Cinnabar, how about "Do you do it to people at work/on the Tube/in the coffee shop then?"

CinnabarRed Fri 02-May-14 09:26:29

I should explain that it's not groping with DH - it's feathery stroking.

Now, I do absolutely appreciate that feathery stroking isn't sexual assault - but I hate it and have clearly articulated that to DH many times.

I think next time I will just calmly get up from the sofa and move to the arm chair.

And DH will act all hurt. And probably sigh.

CinnabarRed Fri 02-May-14 09:27:22

He does do it to the DSs when they come for cuddles, BTW. They don't seem to mind.

JapaneseMargaret Fri 02-May-14 10:00:45

Oh God, the hurting and sighing. It's so manipulative.

Done to make you feel in the wrong. And not behave that way again.

Humans are so flawed. Why are so many of us, so awful to the ones we love?

Hullygully Fri 02-May-14 10:03:11

I think it's often about awkwardness, about not feeling comfortable with an open approach because it makes the approacher vulnerable. Easier to do a faux-jokey grab than be emotionally open.

Still an awful lot of people who are emotionally repressed and unable to articulate verbally or physically with intimate honesty.

Waltermittythesequel Fri 02-May-14 10:05:50

and reacted as I imagine I might if I'm told something I've been doing and been allowed to do for a long time is wrong. I'd probly sulk a bit too, so I stand corrected on that count

He hasn't been allowed to do it for a long time. He's just refused to respect her body, then punished her for finally calling him out on it in such a way that he's out of excuses.

You don't stand corrected. The fact that you were a like-minded misogynist was crystal clear from your first post.

Men like to touch? So do women. We're not an alien species.

But unless you grope your gf in front of your mother, in a church, in front of a group of school children etc (you get the drift) you can control it you just don't want to because, ultimately your needs come before hers. Your want of sexual gratification is paramount.

*not YOU necessarily, just making the point

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Fri 02-May-14 10:19:43

Cinnabar, unwanted touching is unwanted touching.

Again, he probably doesn't do it to someone he sits next to on

JapaneseMargaret Fri 02-May-14 10:22:39

Thanks to Waltermitty and Basil for some rather enlightening posts on this thread.

Luckily, I'm married to a man who doesn't restrict his social nous to the workplace and other friends, but it's been extremely interesting to see certain argument utterly debunked on this thread.

CinnabarRed Fri 02-May-14 10:25:17

Yes, all true.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Fri 02-May-14 10:26:04

...the train. It might be habitual but if so it should be a habit he wants to break as he is touching you when you don't want him to. So you moving should result in a "sorry, I was doing it again, wasn't I?" and should be helping him break the habit.

And to those saying "you've allowed it for 18 years" well (a) it's obvious OP made her "non-enjoyment" clear but (b) body responses change over time, I am much more likely to be deep in logistical planning in my head than before we had kids and so am likely to find an unheralded sexual touch intrusive. A "Cuddle?" or similar tends to work better.

WandaDoff Fri 02-May-14 12:10:12

I 'discussed' this thread & it's contents with DP last night.

He's often guilty of unexpected groping & gets told to stop it every time.
I realised that whilst I push him away every time & say "stop it", I had never actually come out & said out loud that I hated it & it made me feel invaded & defensive.

So I told him. I stated how being touched like that made me feel & that I didn't realise how common it was & I would like him not to reach over & tweak my nipples or stick his hand down my pants whenever he gets the urge. I also asked him to read this thread, because I wanted him to see that it wasn't just me that feels this way.

He claimed that he didn't know that I didn't like it hmm
Even though my body language screams that I hate it, he hadn't noticed.

So then he read the thread for a bit.

I asked him what he thought.

The first point he made was that the OP's DH gets sex once or twice a week & thinks he's not getting any, & then made the point that its twice more than my poor old DP angry

I give up. sad

Lancelottie Fri 02-May-14 12:19:45

Has he made any kind of connection between 'my DP is pissed off at my loutish behaviour' and 'My DP doesn't seem to want to shag me', Wanda?

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Fri 02-May-14 12:50:27

Wanda, ask him to read the thread again - this time paying particular attention to the fact that when women are subjected to unwanted groping like this, it is a turn off. And as such, they are unlikely to actually want sex.

TillyTellTale Fri 02-May-14 13:00:51

Make your DP's read this. It's a man saying it, so maybe they'll listen. www.cracked.com/blog/5-things-men-do-to-ruin-their-own-sex-lives/

WandaDoff Fri 02-May-14 13:18:59

I spelt it out in words of one syllable, I could not have been more clear believe me.

He'd just rather feel sorry for himself than listen to me try to explain why he doesn't get regular sex.

Waltermittythesequel Fri 02-May-14 13:19:40

Well he sounds like an utter twat!

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Fri 02-May-14 13:59:18

Right, so he now does know even if he didn't before (hmm) - is he going to stop?

If he said to you "you know when you rub my feet? I actually don't like it, can you stop?" You would, um, stop, right?

Does he get that??

WandaDoff Fri 02-May-14 14:10:38

No, he says he won't do it, & he generally does what he says.
He's not very happy about it though, I don't think.

I'm not sure I give much of a fuck about that any more though, so bollocks to him.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Fri 02-May-14 14:30:32

He's not very happy about the fact that he is no longer making his wife unhappy?

Waltermittythesequel Fri 02-May-14 14:30:50

He's not very happy about it though, I don't think

He's not very happy about stopping sexual contact that you're explicitly said you're not happy with?

Wow.

AskBasil Fri 02-May-14 15:49:19

Why is he not happy about it?
Does he actually want to carry on making you unhappy?

Littleturkish Fri 02-May-14 18:41:58

This has made me realise how much I love the fact my DH doesn't do this. I'm going to tell him so tonight.

We have sex a lot- more initiated by me than him. I definitely find him sexier because he doesn't grope me.

harriet247 Fri 02-May-14 18:51:03

I haaate this!!
Dp does it. Its has gotten less and less after me smacking his hands away and telling him I hate it and I feel like a lump of meat when hes like that.
He slips up occasionally and sticks his hand down my bra/trousers and immediately gets a smack/pinch.
He's a wonderful guy but it is by far one thing I would change about him.

hamptoncourt Fri 02-May-14 21:04:38

Oh how horrible! I can't believe you married a man that does this OP. What were you thinking?

Well now it has come to a head you have your opportunity to tell him you find it repugnant and that it has to stop. The fact you actually have to explain something so fucking obvious is appalling but at least then if he still insists on groping you, you will know exactly where you stand.

parentalunit Fri 02-May-14 22:51:23

Focus so far seems to be on what you don't like, and what he is no longer permitted to do. You might be coming across as negative.

Suggestions: docus on what you DO like, and make a move on your husband, massage his feet or whatever it is that he likes, to show him that you do still desire him. Otherwise he will assume you don't.

parentalunit Fri 02-May-14 22:51:30

*focus.

MistressDeeCee Fri 02-May-14 23:01:55

parentalunit I raised my eyebrows at your comment thinking no way. But if talking about the actuality of real life - what you are suggesting is part way towards solving this issue. Im re-iterating real life as its all very well whats being said on board, but its unlikely berating DH about this will get OP anywhere, no matter what is said. Someone will listen if they want to & if they don't, then they wont. & it comes down to the man she is living with day in day out...using certain words will likely make it even worse. Fine if you plan to leave the man, not fine if you don't.

FWIW I think the OP is entirely right & the DH is just bloody sulking. A real turn-on...Not.

There does need to be peace and resolution though so as galling as it may be OP perhaps you need to make a move halfway forward on this, albeit so does he. Further than you do, in fact...but we know how real life is really and you know your DH best as to what 'stance' may work with him. Tough words aren't always the way

WhistleTopTomato Fri 02-May-14 23:07:39

Suggestions: docus on what you DO like, and make a move on your husband, massage his feet or whatever it is that he likes, to show him that you do still desire him. Otherwise he will assume you don't

Husband been sexually assaulting you for years on end? Why not try massaging his feet?

You make Roy Chubby Brown look like Andrea Dworkin.

Waltermittythesequel Fri 02-May-14 23:10:16

Suggestions: docus on what you DO like, and make a move on your husband, massage his feet or whatever it is that he likes, to show him that you do still desire him. Otherwise he will assume you don't

And we can't have someone who is punishing his wife because she's refusing to be used for his constant sexual gratification feel unwanted, can we?

GarlicMaybeNot Sat 03-May-14 00:24:02

That was a top article, Tilly! Most amusing, and not wrong.

OMG at this: "It's gotten so bad with Internet porn that recent studies are showing that men in their 20s consider erectile dysfunction completely normal for their age group."

shock

parentalunit Sat 03-May-14 06:23:19

Whistle and Walter. You're entitled to your opinion, but you seem to think the relationship is over. It's not really my call, or yours. My suggestions were based on the OP wanting to continue with her marriage and asking for constructive advice.

Mistress absolutely spot on, it's counter intuitive but someone has to bridge this gap otherwise in my opinion the relationship could disintegrate. If that's what OP wants, then fair enough, but it doesn't sound like it from her previous posts.

Sorry for stirring, that was not my intention.

SixImpossible Sat 03-May-14 07:38:27

You're not stirring, ParentalUnit, I entirely agree with you about finding a way to move forward out of this unhappy situation, but it would seem that anyone on this thread who thinks that there is something positive that the OP could do is a victim-blaming misogyny-apologist.

brotherhoodofspam Sat 03-May-14 09:15:19

You're right Parentalunit, I don't want this relationship to disintegrate. This is one aspect of his personality/behaviour that I really don't like (and I think he's finally got that messagegrin ) but like all of us he is multifaceted and the unfortunate thing about starting a thread like this is that you're having a rant about the one really annoying thing, and that's all anyone has to go on when judging him.

Sneezecakesmum Sat 03-May-14 09:41:18

So right OP. A case of the baby and the bath water !

AskBasil Sat 03-May-14 10:55:57

"someone has to bridge this gap otherwise in my opinion the relationship could disintegrate"

Well if must be incredibly fragile if it could disintegrate as a result of the OP telling her DH straight out that she doesn't like something. I suggest that a relationship that fragile has more problems than this thread is addressing, but the OP hasn't suggested that she thinks her relationship is that fragile.

Women, never forget, it is your job to ensure that relationships don't disintegrate, relationship maintenance is women's work, not men's. Your DH's have no obligation whatsoever to work on their relationship and ensure it doesn't become fragile and disintegrate, only women have the obligation to do that.

So get out there and do the emotional work of relationship maintenance. Once you've done the housework, obviously. hmm

matildasquared Sat 03-May-14 17:35:25

I think that's the hardest thing about threads like this. "My husband is great and I definitely don't want to LTB... so how can I address [appallingly creepy behaviour], you know, without making him mad?"

parentalunit Sun 04-May-14 06:19:31

Askbasil, yes I was absolutely saying that she should be a doormat...what?! Marriage takes work from both people, but if there's an impasse, someone has to reach out to get things going again. Sometimes one, sometimes the other. That's all. Really.

OP so glad that he has received the message, good luck with getting past this!

CinnabarRed Sun 04-May-14 06:31:46

There's a difference between building bridges and appeasement.

JonesRipley Sun 04-May-14 07:31:53

This thread is full,of excellent posts.

It's also a depressing reminder about men women love who are not capable of behaving like a thinking feeling adults

This is everday sexism - not Just strangers shouting things in the street.

JonesRipley Sun 04-May-14 07:32:49

AskBasil

Great posts throughout

Louise1956 Sun 04-May-14 07:57:09

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

JonesRipley Sun 04-May-14 07:58:42

Ah Louise. Always there with an intelligent comment

DIYapprentice Sun 04-May-14 07:58:59

If you find having your bum and breasts grabbed annoying, you probably aren't very attracted to him.

Seriously?! Have you read ANY of this thread? how utterly depressing..

DoctorTwo Sun 04-May-14 08:24:46

If you find having your bum and breasts grabbed annoying, you probably aren't very attracted to him

What the fuck? I think you meant if you find having your bum and breasts grabbed annoying you're probably heartily sick of being treated as an object rather than a human being

It's nothing to do with attraction, it's about him treating his wife as a possession.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Sun 04-May-14 09:02:02

Doctor, Louise is just getting more and more extreme . Ignore her, she might go back to 1956.

JapaneseMargaret Sun 04-May-14 09:05:17

'Louise' is a woman...?!

Yeah, right...

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Sun 04-May-14 09:10:15

Yes, I think she is. It's possible, but unlikely, that a man knows as much about Mallory Towers as she does!

JapaneseMargaret Sun 04-May-14 09:15:29

Ha!

I stand corrected, then.

<boggles>

JohnFarleysRuskin Sun 04-May-14 10:12:13

"if you're only having sex once or twice a week, you probably have rather low desire for him"

I thought that was particularily funny.

CrystalSkulls Sun 04-May-14 10:23:02

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

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