To want autonomy over my body.

(1000 Posts)
thebodydoestricks Wed 23-Apr-14 16:12:50

Aibu here. I am 50 but apparently still fertile.

I have 4 children already and do not want any more.

According to some posters if I fell pregnant but hadn't used at least 2 methods of contraception I should be denied the abortion I would most definatly want.

I would have to go before a panel of judges in a court to plead my case. They would judge whether I should have an abortion or not.

Of course if there was a back log of cases then I would have to wait and if it reached 24 weeks it would be too late anyway.

I would be forced to give birth.

Aibu to be absolutely stunned at this posters view in Britain 2014?

WorraLiberty Wed 23-Apr-14 16:15:37

YANBU to be stunned

But YABVU to start a thread about it

Why not just take it up with the poster?

Nothing to add at the moment other than YANBU, but marking my place so I can keep up with the thread.

MaidOfStars Wed 23-Apr-14 16:17:03

Hurrah, was puzzling the etiquette of continuing a conversation....

Lottapianos Wed 23-Apr-14 16:17:25

YANBU. I'm staunchly pro choice. I think a woman should be allowed to have a legal, safe abortion at any stage of pregnancy, for any reason. Anything less is the thin end of the wedge when it comes to women having control over their own bodies as far as I'm concerned. The alternative is not a world I would like to live in.

basgetti Wed 23-Apr-14 16:18:32

YANBU. I believe in abortion on demand.

HoldOnHoldOnSoldier Wed 23-Apr-14 16:18:54

Yanbu!

StickEm Wed 23-Apr-14 16:20:46

Is this the conclusion of that last thread!
I am childfree at any cost, I'd have to do it myself then wouldn't I.

thebodydoestricks Wed 23-Apr-14 16:20:57

Worra couldn't the thread closed at 1000 messages and had no time!

Felt it was too ridiculous and scary in equal measure to not discuss further.

Hello Maid just couldn't help it.

MaidOfStars Wed 23-Apr-14 16:22:08

Just to get my ducks in a row: my most recent thought on this was to query what type of medical conditions meet the criteria of grave/serious/permanent injury, such that an abortion may be allowed proceed where it is legal to do so (Ground B in the UK, very low numbers). What kind of medical problems are we talking about here? Heart damage? Brain damage? Paralysis? Delaying cancer treatment? Am I in the ball park?

There was a response from someone to say that they didn't think such things were valid reasons for abortion. I would genuinely like to pursue this, if she feels like joining this thread.

mamalovesmojitos Wed 23-Apr-14 16:22:52

YADNBU

Binkyresurrected Wed 23-Apr-14 16:30:25

Maid wasn't the response was that it had to affect the life of the mother.

from what that poster has previously posted I would take that to mean that it had to be a life/death situation for the woman before an abortion would be permissible and that would only be if there was no chance of saving the foetus.

MaidOfStars Wed 23-Apr-14 16:32:47

Maid wasn't the response was that it had to affect the life of the mother

Indeed it was. I was wondering if that was a hard line or a softer one that might malleable.

thebodydoestricks Wed 23-Apr-14 16:32:53

Another poster refused to acknowledge any type of mental condition anxiety/depression resulting in a pregnancy should be considered at all.

The panel of judges?

One Poster pondered on whether what you were wearing at the time of the sex act was relevant?

So Jim jams and socks, well that's ok you weren't asking for it ok abortion

Frilly nighty and ann summers pants, no slut, abortion denied!

Would they have buzzers like X Factor?

WooWooOwl Wed 23-Apr-14 16:34:00

You have autonomy over your own body. You aren't pregnant anyway.

Other posters are as entitled to their opinions as you are. I can see both sides of the abortion debate, and both have valid points.

thebodydoestricks Wed 23-Apr-14 16:35:47

Binky yes the life of the mother.

So to get the abortion you had to be dying!

Tenrec Wed 23-Apr-14 16:37:17

YADNBU!

MadamBatShit Wed 23-Apr-14 16:38:24

Oh my.. I have missed something.
YANBU I believe in abortion on demand as well.
Your body.

shocked now by some viewpoints

MaidOfStars Wed 23-Apr-14 16:38:40

So to get the abortion you had to be dying!

I would be keen to hear the situations under which this exception is allowed also. Do you have be dying right then and there, or can you obtain an abortion in cases where you might confidently predict death in, say, a week's time? (Am aware that the second situation is possibly theoretical).

expatinscotland Wed 23-Apr-14 16:39:22

YANBU. I think I have the right to end my life, too, with medical help and my family around if they wish, not have to sneak off to Switzerland alone so my family are not prosecuted.

flippinada Wed 23-Apr-14 16:40:03

Yanbu.

thebodydoestricks Wed 23-Apr-14 16:42:58

Woo but I expect autonomy over my body pregnant or not.

I am fully capable of making my own decisions.

Do you think a court should decide what you do with your body?

Of course everyone is entitled to their opinions, did I say they weren't?

Maid I don't know it's a puzzle.

Sunnydaysablazeinhope Wed 23-Apr-14 16:43:32

Eh? Poster as in paper? Magazine? Street? Or poster as in here?

Thought I'd heard it all tgen this place got weirder...

thebodydoestricks Wed 23-Apr-14 16:46:53

Apparently too all the unwanted babies born to such women would be all adopted. Apparently out laws are too strict and they would all be loved and cared for by private individuals or the state.

There would be no back street abortions as one poster*doesn't believe in them* so that was a huge myth then.

thebodydoestricks Wed 23-Apr-14 16:47:31

sunny on here this morning.

ifyourehoppyandyouknowit Wed 23-Apr-14 16:47:34

Silly women, don't you know you can't be trusted to make decisions like that?

WooWooOwl Wed 23-Apr-14 16:50:15

Yes, and you have autonomy over your body whether pregnant or not.

gordyslovesheep Wed 23-Apr-14 16:50:34

well you know I think YANBU

TillyTellTale Wed 23-Apr-14 16:52:56

Someone (not on here) once said it would be a 15 year old virgin rape victim's fault for not being on hormonal contraception just in case she was raped. Just a few years ago. hmm

The post you describe doesn't surprise me but YANBU!!!!!

BeyondTired Wed 23-Apr-14 16:53:25

Just adding another "for any reason the woman wants, to term" from me

And yy to expat and the right to choose to die yourself.

thebodydoestricks Wed 23-Apr-14 16:53:30

hop yes you are right.

Back to the 1950s for me.

What a silly little ninny am I?

Next I will want my own bank account.

thebodydoestricks Wed 23-Apr-14 16:55:49

Y y to expat too. Totally agree.

woowoo actually I don't and neither do you.

Tilly beyond shocking.

thebodydoestricks Wed 23-Apr-14 16:57:56

gordy couldn't let it lie.

beyondtired agree but apparently that makes us despicable. Ah well.

WooWooOwl Wed 23-Apr-14 17:08:30

Yes, I do. Because I can have an abortion if I want it right up until the time that a baby could survive without being attached to me. And I can choose to use contraception, and I can choose not to run the risk of pregnancy as long as a violent crime isn't committed against me.

That's more than enough autonomy for me. I get far more control over my body's pregnancy than I do over my body's illnesses, and and I know which is worse, and which I'd choose if I had to.

Seeing as I don't get to choose never to get cancer, or heart disease or any other nasty thing that could happen, then I'm prepared to accept that I may have to bear a child I don't particularly want if I choose to have sex.

WilsonFrickett Wed 23-Apr-14 17:11:24

There are a couple of extremely vehement anti-abortion posters on MN, in fact I'd go as far as to call them forced birthers. Tbh I usually leave a thread when they pop up because it is guaranteed to go on for 1000 posts, shock me to my very core, make me scream and bang my head against the wall, then it all kicks off.

So no doubt I'll end up hiding this thread too grin but good on ya OP anyway.

There is no such thing as a little bit of autonomy. You either have it or you don't. My body, my choice.

thebodydoestricks Wed 23-Apr-14 17:16:19

Pregnancy isn't an illness it's a condition.

You either have full control over your body or you don't as a pregnant person.

If limits are applied you don't have autonomy.

CumberCookie Wed 23-Apr-14 17:17:35

I'm shocked by this viewpoint.

Apart from everything else do people who don't believe in abortion not realise that women who are pregnant and don't want to be will find a way of terminating the pregnancy at any cost. Thousands of lives will be lost to backstreet abortionists. It doesn't bare thinking about.

whitepuddingsupper Wed 23-Apr-14 17:19:42

Going by the posts on the other thread I don't think you have any chance of convincing the rabidly pro life small minority of your reasonableness but the majority will agree with you, I don't think this thread will go any differently to the one that reached it's limit.

Sunnydaysablazeinhope Wed 23-Apr-14 17:26:15

Good grief.

Yanbu.

How did I miss that one?!?

thebodydoestricks Wed 23-Apr-14 17:27:37

I agree ^^ I suppose it still shocks me that people hold these views.

Of course they are full entitled to but not entitled to control another woman's choices.

cumber it's sticking fingers In ears and humming response. They don't want to hear it. Too real life. Too raw.

friedgreentomatoes88 Wed 23-Apr-14 17:29:33

It all depends whether you believe the unborn baby / foetus / whatever term you're happy with, has a life equal in value to yours. Clearly you don't believe it does, but some people will believe that, so feel that YANBU to want autonomy over your body, YABU to want it at the expense of someone else's life.

I don't see the point in posting this - some will agree with you wholeheartedly, some will vehemently disagree, others will be somewhere in the middle.

5madthings Wed 23-Apr-14 17:31:11

Yanbu, my uterus, my body, my choice.

GrassIsSinging Wed 23-Apr-14 17:33:47

The law (thank fuck) is on your side. YANBU.

Thankfully the law is on our side, if it was up to that poster I would most likely be dead now

MelonadeAgain Wed 23-Apr-14 17:37:33

YANBU its ridiculous and unworkable. Using two types of contraception is unproveable and the courts are already full to the brim. Plus the potential of claiming damages under the Human Rights Act or even UK law.

I remember having a discussion with a very esteemed, rather anti-woman barrister, who gave all these very reasonable sounding responses as to why a possible father should be able to prevent the mother of his (alleged) child from having an abortion.

And then I said "But what if there is a malicious impregnation?" And he was stumped.

None of this works any other way than by giving someone living full autonomy over their whole body. I do believe very much that you have to be a conscious, sentient being which has been born to have rights. Because with rights, come corresponding obligations. It is one of the most fundamental principles upon which all modern legal systems are based.

thebodydoestricks Wed 23-Apr-14 17:43:37

Fried not much point in posting any debate then.

If some educated people, shockingly women, hold these views then we need to be aware.

The forced birth lobby are strong in the USA. We need to ensure they don't filtrate here.

Know your enemy.

Finnbheara Wed 23-Apr-14 17:52:21

Erm, I'm a fence sitter.

I have been on mumsnet long enough that this is a polar subject, I can't understand why those at the opposite ends of the belief really seem to think that they can change any one else's point of view. I have read enough of these threads and I am still a fence sitter. I read them with an open mouth that there are such extreme views - on both sides

MaidOfStars Wed 23-Apr-14 17:56:09

It all depends whether you believe the unborn baby / foetus / whatever term you're happy with, has a life equal in value to yours. Clearly you don't believe it does, but some people will believe that, so feel that YANBU to want autonomy over your body, YABU to want it at the expense of someone else's life

I agree with this statement. While it's not my position re: abortion, I have tried to imagine how I might feel if I was forced to stand back and accept something I consider to be a sickening and grave injustice, if I saw what I perceived as human beings legally murdered in a civilised society.

I don't like the political labels/stereotypes much, but it must be very hard for the "prolifers" (the ones who actually cry for the babies they think are being murdered and would happily give money/time/shelter/a new home to any child) to see what goes on. It's a fervent, ingrained and, I think we forget, often genuinely-held emotional response to what they think is murder.

How would any of us "pro-choicers" respond to an analogous situation?

Joylin Wed 23-Apr-14 17:58:26

There are extremists on both sides of the abortion issue; one side thinks fertilised eggs are equal to a fully formed human being and the other which sees fully formed, viable babies as no more than clumps of cells who should have no rights until they are born.

Anybody who wants an abortion should have that option available up to 12/14 weeks or so regardless of the reason, after that it should be restricted to cases where there are genuine medical reasons. The idea of aborting a healthy, 24 week old + baby who is capable of independent life for no reason other than you don't feel like it, is just sickening. There comes a point during pregnancy where abortion becomes killing a living being.

TheBabyFacedAssassin Wed 23-Apr-14 17:58:45

YADNBU

Thanks for starting this body, I had visitors land round and missed the end of the last one.

ikeaismylocal Wed 23-Apr-14 18:08:32

By autonomy over your own body you mean the option to abort a fetus the day before it's due date because you don't fancy the idea of being a mum anymore ( which your posts on the last thread suggested) then unfortunately I think yabu.

thebodydoestricks Wed 23-Apr-14 18:18:20

baby pleased as a always to hear you but please be careful to protect yourself. You have so much support on here so sending you waves and waves of it. grin

If you apply limits you accept you don't trust a pregnant woman to act in her best interests or in the best interests if her life/mental health.

You can't have a half way house. Obviously the law is the law but the point is full autonomy or not.

thebodydoestricks Wed 23-Apr-14 18:20:50

Hi ikeaismylocal yes as other thread i do.

Don't think there will be queues of heavily pregnant women choosing this do you really? Or maybe you do?

MyrtleDove Wed 23-Apr-14 18:22:48

Hello, I'm a long time MN lurker/reader (pom bears, neighbour cutting keys for house in Mexico, lemon drizzle bitch etc) but had to delurk to comment.

Last week during Holy Week, I stayed with the nuns of the Community of St John the Divine, the real-life nuns from Call The Midwife. Some of the stories they have about the lack of reproductive rights women in the 50s and early 60s in the UK had would turn your hair white - Call The Midwife only showed the tip of the iceberg. Access to abortion lifted women out of poverty and drudgery, and these nuns were so grateful for the reduction in infant mortality and abandonment (not to mention women dying from backstreet abortions) - one of the reasons Jennifer Worth (née Lee, the author of Call The Midwife) wrote the book was due to a lack of understanding of how things were before abortion was widely accessible. The portrayal of abortion in Vera Drake was high inaccurate - the method used in the film was usually fatal to women, and since illegal abortion providers had women over a barrel they often bled women dry financially too, and blackmail was not uncommon. Abortion being legal, safe and easily accessible is so important.

(The nuns are really incredible women by the way - after NHS midwifery changes meant that they were no longer needed as midwives, they were some of the first to provide hospice care for HIV/AIDS sufferers, and handed condoms out at AIDS awareness events!)

TheBabyFacedAssassin Wed 23-Apr-14 18:24:26

Thanks thebody and thank you to all the other posters who have shown their support to me. I don't mean to be masochistic, I am genuinely interested in hearing both sides of the debate. I really, really would like to try to understand why anti-abortioners feel the way they do. Here in Northern Ireland those people are behind the law, if I want to have a go at changing that I need to understand why they think the way they do.
Also, I want to remind posters that here in Northern Ireland we are living in the past and I can be that voice of someone who is being forced to continue with a pregnancy against my wishes.

Also - totally agree with expat re euthanasia.

Tevin Wed 23-Apr-14 18:27:36

I wanted to post on the other thread but wasn't sure what to write (or brave enough!). I had an early termination last year of an unplanned third pregnancy. I suffered from hyperemesis gravidarium which worsened with each pregnancy, to the point that when I terminated at 6 weeks I was fast approaching the point of my life being at risk as none of the medication was controlling or stopping the vomiting.

The reality of making abortion illegal is that women like me, who suffer pregnancy complications, would die.

The idea of a woman aborting a healthy, almost full term foetus makes me uncomfortable but that is herchoice to make not mine. If the world was run for my comfort there would be no children born only to starve to death, no women judged for wanting to control their own body, no women judged for taking life saving anti emetics during pregnancy.

I was judged as selfish by family for considering trying to continue my pregnancy and then as unfeeling once I had had the termination. Damned if I did and damned if I didn't. sad

ikeaismylocal Wed 23-Apr-14 18:27:55

Just because a woman has a fetus in her uterus it doesn't make her ultimately sensible, rational and capable of making good decisions.

How would you suggest we differentiate between women who have just gone off the idea of having a baby and women who have pre-natal depression or who are overwhelmed by the hormones and they see the only way out to have a very late abortion? Or should women be allowed to make that decision, a decision that with better mental health, less crazy hormones they might come to deeply regret.

tibbysmum Wed 23-Apr-14 18:28:56

TheBabyFacedAssassin - I've seen your posts on the other thread. Can I just say I am in complete agreement and send my very best wishes and support to you.

5madthings Wed 23-Apr-14 18:29:53

We already have mental health laws regarding health care for those circumstances Ikea

TheBabyFacedAssassin Wed 23-Apr-14 18:32:02

Thanks tibbys.

ikeaismylocal Wed 23-Apr-14 18:38:17

Don't think there will be queues of heavily pregnant women choosing this do you really? Or maybe you do?

No I don't believe very late abortion would be a commonly used option. Neither do I think that there is any chance that your right to an early abortion will be removed, it is theoretical, someone has posted an opinion that you should not be able to have an abortion and despite it not being a real life issue as I believe that particular poster has no political powers but it is still enough for you to start a thread.

You believe a extremely late abortion for any reason ( holiday, don't fancy a newborn after all, don't like the idea of giving birth) is a woman's right.

It is as appropriate to discuss your opinion on late term abortion as it is to discuss someone elses opinion on banning abortions. Thankfully neither is going to happen.

javotte Wed 23-Apr-14 18:38:19

Thank you MaidofStars for trying to understand the pro-life POW.

I was raped. I was a virgin. I refused to take the MAP, because I didn't want to stop an embryo from implanting itelf. Had I got pregnant, I wouldn't even have considered an abortion. The options would have been bringing up the child myself or giving it up for adoption.

If you consider that human life starts with conception, the pro-life stance makes perfect sense. If killing your (born) children "because you cannot cope any more" or "because they damage your career", or because you have MH problems was made legal tomorrow, would you not say a word? Well, this is how I feel about abortion. Because it is legal does not make it moral.

About backstreets abortions : I don't like the "it happens anyway so let's legalise it" argument. What about murder then? There have always been murders, shall we provide people with murdering facilities so that they do it in a cleaner way?

I understand the pro-choice side. What I don't understand is why they use such strong language with people who have a different opinion.

MyrtleDove Wed 23-Apr-14 18:43:06

The point is that it's not for people who believe life starts at conception to have a say on the reproductive rights of others. Women are free not to have an abortion if they don't want one - they are not free to decide that others should not have them. Those of us who are pro-choice use strong language because having our reproductive rights infringed (or having others wanting to infringe them) is serious, and it is wrong.

Re backstreet abortions, the main argument for legalising them is so that they become safe - backstreet abortions are dangerous for the women having them. Even for anti-choice people, surely the loss of two lives is worse than the loss of one?

javotte Wed 23-Apr-14 18:46:15

MyrtleDove for me it is not about the "reproductive rights of others", it is about the life of a child. Once again, if other people were free to kill their children, would you say it is OK, whatever they want, even if you wouldn't personally kill yours?

This is why I believe the pro-life / pro-choice debate cannot end on a sort of medium ground. Either you believe that a foetus is a person or you don't.

AnyaKnowIt Wed 23-Apr-14 18:48:37

You if don't want an abortion, fine don't have one.

Forcing other women to carry on with a pregnncy she doesn't want is vile!

Tevin Wed 23-Apr-14 18:49:08

But then what about women like me then javot? If I hadn't had a termination then the most likely outcome was that I wouldn't have survived. I knew that when the doctors caring for me strongly recommended a termination.

Does that mean that my foetus would have murdered me? Am I not important enough to have a life? Or would it have been my own fault for having a pregnancy related condition completely out of my control?

AnyaKnowIt Wed 23-Apr-14 18:49:49

I don't believe that the fetus has equal rights as the mother.

The woman comes first.

ikeaismylocal Wed 23-Apr-14 18:50:30

Is abortion ok before it becomes a fetus?

basgetti Wed 23-Apr-14 18:53:14

About backstreets abortions : I don't like the "it happens anyway so let's legalise it" argument. What about murder then? There have always been murders, shall we provide people with murdering facilities so that they do it in a cleaner way?

68,000 women die each year due to unsafe abortions. Anyone who would rather see that situation continue than compromise a moral ideal has no business calling themselves pro life.

javotte Wed 23-Apr-14 18:54:26

Tevin I don't know your story and I am very sorry for you.
I believe that if the pregnancy would kill the mother (such as an ectopic pregnancy) then it can be terminated, because both people would die if it wasn't.
I have never heard of such a condition. Once again, I am sorry.

javotte Wed 23-Apr-14 18:56:52

ikea an embryo, a foetus and a baby are just different stages in the life of a person. So an abortion is never OK.
basgetti 68,000 babies also died in these unsafe abortions. And women die every year after legal abortions too.

Dawndonnaagain Wed 23-Apr-14 18:58:34

javotte
In law the embryo is not a child. Many of us believe in science, that science dictates that a group of cells is, in the main, not viable before 24 weeks. New research, which I posted on the other thread, does seem to indicate that there is a possibility that "It is only after birth, with the separation of the baby from the uterus and the umbilical cord, that wakefulness truly begins."
As for if other people were free to kill their children it's a non starter, we are not talking about sentient beings when discussing abortion.

SoonToBeSix Wed 23-Apr-14 18:59:00

Anya why should a woman come first, why should her desire to further her career or maintain her current lifestyle be more important than a fetus's life?
I know there are many more reasons why women have abortions however the above are two reasons I have read on mumsnet.

MyrtleDove Wed 23-Apr-14 19:00:55

Javotte you can't reasonably talk about the foetus having an equal value as the mother - what happens in cases where the foetus is literally killing the mother? Or in twin-to-twin transfusion where one foetus is killing the other? Would you have the foetus on trial?

There is a difference between something being a living creature and something having full personhood. Clearly, foetuses are living in the sense of being a biologically alive thing, but don't have personhood. There have been cases in the US where states have tried to grant personhood to foetuses, with chilling consequences - the potential to jail women who have miscarriages and can't prove they weren't trying to get their bodies to miscarry (a miscarriage, by the way, is medically called a 'spontaneous abortion' - abortion is just manually doing what the body does naturally to many women). The potential to jail women who drank or smoked before they knew they were pregnant. Keeping a vegetative woman on life support to preserve the foetus, literally using the mother as an incubator. And so it goes on. Living is not the same as personhood and a foetus does not come before its mother.

flippinada Wed 23-Apr-14 19:01:28

Baby, I salute you, for your resilience and strength, I really do (sorry if that sounds inappropriate given the situation).

I tend to keep off threads like this for a variety of reasons but just want to wish you all the best.

basgetti Wed 23-Apr-14 19:02:35

Well if they had been allowed access to safe legal abortions at least the women would likely have survived. Surely it is better to save one life than kill two, especially as the woman may have children who need her, a spouse who loves her, an otherwise fulfilling and happy life?

MelonadeAgain Wed 23-Apr-14 19:03:58

*SoonToBeSix why should a woman come first, why should her desire to further her career or maintain her current lifestyle be more important than a foetus's life".

Why do you pick those two examples, as if a woman should be all nurturing and above such things? This is total sexism on your part. Women are also human beings, and some of them value these things - why should they not?

In law, its not considered a life. If it were, we would have pregnant women being jailed and being sued for any actions of their own which might cause a miscarriage.

But ultimately, the reason for being pro-abortion is that without it, women are condemned to being second class citizens, prisoners of their own fertility. And I don't think that's fair for 50% of the population.

javotte Wed 23-Apr-14 19:04:20

Dawn as I have mentioned before, I am not talking about the law, I am talking about morals. Before abortion was made legal, would you not have fought for it if you believe it is right?
The baby not being able to survive outside the womb does not make it a "bunch of cells". I believe it is a person, who doesn't share its mother's DNA so cannot be considered as a part of her body like her gallstone or her appendix.

caroldecker Wed 23-Apr-14 19:06:21

In a no abortion world, many children are dragged up badly by unwilling parents to thier detriment and society's - Freakonomics argues that legal abortion in the US is responsible for reducing crime rates in the 80's and 90's as less unwanted children were born.
A life is not just being alive and abortion prevents much suffering to children - most people are nowadays encouraged to keep thier children rather than adopt.

MyrtleDove Wed 23-Apr-14 19:06:42

Javotte foetuses cannot survive independently of their mothers. They have no personhood of their own.

5madthings Wed 23-Apr-14 19:07:56

Ikea you say abortions will never be banned and abortion to term not allowed.. But actually both are already happening.look at Ireland and various states in America where women's rights and access to abortion are being whittled away. Contrast that with Canada where there are no laws regulating abortion, but the system in Canada works well. Women, despite being full of 'crazy hormones' are capable of deciding what is best for them and their body.

Women deserve the right to bodily autonomy, it really is that simple.

javotte Wed 23-Apr-14 19:08:05

Melonade once a man has had sex he cannot decide if the child will be born or not - does that make them second-class citizens prisoners of their own fertility?

Fizzybangfanny Wed 23-Apr-14 19:08:26

I hate these threads. They are so sad.

The law is behind the woman so I don't understand why they have to be bashed about so frequently.

I had a early termination when I was 18. It was absolutely the right thing to do. I could not afford nor look after a life. It was a horrid horrid situation that I made sure would never happen again.

There are many reasons why a woman is entitled to a termination. I dont think it being used as regular birth control is one of them. I know of some one that's had four. Thats sad.

I hate the extremists that say it should be banned and the extremists that say it should be legal to full term even if on a whim the mother decided ' she doesn't want it'

What these threads prove I don't know sad

SoonToBeSix Wed 23-Apr-14 19:08:56

I picked those examples as you the selfishness of abortions for those reasons are obvious. Other reasons may not seem as clear cut although I believe all abortion is wrong .
I am happy to be a " prisoner of my fertility" . If I choose to have sex I need to accept that I may have an unplanned pregnancy.

RunLikeSomeFeckersChasing Wed 23-Apr-14 19:10:38

BabyFaced - I'm from NI. Bloody love the place. But certain things about it make me ashamed to have any association with it. I believe in choice. Unadulterated choice. I believe I should be able to choose an abortion. I believe that this choice should have no limitations. Thank you for sharing your story, I hope it helps to change all our choices.

AnyaKnowIt Wed 23-Apr-14 19:11:15

Anya why should a woman come first, why should her desire to further her career or maintain her current lifestyle be more important than a fetus's life?

Because its her body she should have the choice

lovelyjubberly Wed 23-Apr-14 19:11:31

Yabu. Everyone has autonomy over their body, do you want autonomy to kill your baby until term then? Why stop having autonomy at 24 weeks?

I am against abortion, I don't go out and protest or anything like that, but I do disagree with it being available on the NHS. I'd rather funds were spent on cancer and the like. I love babies and don't want my taxes spent on ending them sad

javotte Wed 23-Apr-14 19:12:18

Fizzy laws change.
Should abortion not have been discussed in the 60s? It was illegal, so shut up? What about death penalty? It was legal, so should its opponents have kept quiet?
I think debates are healthy. If you believe that your opponents are nutters, just let them talk and discredit themselves.

fidelineish Wed 23-Apr-14 19:13:19

YANBU

Dawndonnaagain Wed 23-Apr-14 19:13:59

The baby not being able to survive outside the womb does not make it a "bunch of cells". I believe it is a person, who doesn't share its mother's DNA so cannot be considered as a part of her body like her gallstone or her appendix.
It does share its mothers dna. Otherwise she wouldn't be its mother.

The fact is though, you believe it is a person, science dictates otherwise.
The fact is, no matter what you believe, forcing someone to give birth against their will is immoral, as I said before, you don't tell me how to dress, what perfume to wear, you, nor anyone else cannot and in my opinion should not, have the right to tell me what to do with my body. Only I have that right.
People fought very hard to get what we have.

javotte Wed 23-Apr-14 19:15:31

Science doesn't dictate what is a person and what isn't, because a person isn't a scientific concept. So you must use religion / ethics / philosophy / whatever you believe in.
And are you telling me I am my mother's clone?

SoonToBeSix Wed 23-Apr-14 19:15:40

Anya but the fetus is not part of her body , she is sustaining it yes but it is a separate entity whose life she is choosing to end.

MyrtleDove Wed 23-Apr-14 19:16:43

Fizzy why is it sad that someone you know has had four abortions? As long as they were safe and legal I see no problem. It's just a medical procedure.

Soon do you believe that aborting ectopic pregnancies (no chance of the embryo surviving and very likely that the mother will die if not removed) is wrong? What about other lifesaving abortions?

Too bloody right some abortions are selfish and they are GOOD. If I got pregnant tomorrow (highly unlikely!) I would have an abortion as soon as I found out, and would have no regrets whatsoever. My reasons for abortion would be entirely selfish. I don't give a fuck. My body, my decision.

LtEveDallas Wed 23-Apr-14 19:17:00

I'd rather funds were spent on cancer and the like. I love babies and don't want my taxes spent on ending them But that wouldn't happen. Those 'lovely' babies need to go into care. The state needs to pay for them. The cost would be astronomical and the 'funds being spent on cancer and the like' would be further diminished.

flippinada Wed 23-Apr-14 19:18:40

I agree with Anya. I am unequivocally and firmly pro choice.

I think it's fine to be pro life for oneself and refuse to countenance the idea of an abortion, but it's not ok to tell another woman she can't have one and try to legislate accordingly.

If safe, legal abortion isn't available then women will seek out unsafe, illegal abortion. It won't stop abortions but will act as a sop to the conscience of pro-life sorts.

I won't comment on the issue this further than this post, because I don't want to get sucked in to what is a maddeningly frustrating and highly charged discussion.

Dawndonnaagain Wed 23-Apr-14 19:18:40

No, I don't have to use anything that you decree. Should I choose to remove a bunch of cells from my body, scientifically proven not to feel pain until removed from my uterus, that is my right.

Fizzybangfanny Wed 23-Apr-14 19:18:56

javotte it's not a healthy debate though is it?

Posters come on just to shock in their extremism. That's unhealthy.

It's not illegal now so there is no point in harking on about the past or using it as an example.

MelonadeAgain Wed 23-Apr-14 19:19:20

Melonade once a man has had sex he cannot decide if the child will be born or not - does that make them second-class citizens prisoners of their own fertility?

No. Why do you ask?

SoonToBeSix Anya but the fetus is not part of her body , she is sustaining it yes but it is a separate entity whose life she is choosing to end

Well, you've answered your own question then. If the entity cannot sustain life on its own, and has not yet been born, it is not alive, but potentially capable of being alive. And it is part of the woman's body as it is connected to, and contained within the human body until birth.

Why "she" rather than "the mother" by the way? You use very leading and biased terminology.

AnyaKnowIt Wed 23-Apr-14 19:20:09

lovelyjubberly Wed 23-Apr-14 19:11:31
Yabu. Everyone has autonomy over their body, do you want autonomy to kill your baby until term then? Why stop having autonomy at 24 weeks?

I am against abortion, I don't go out and protest or anything like that, but I do disagree with it being available on the NHS. I'd rather funds were spent on cancer and the like. I love babies and don't want my taxes

Bet a abortion is a damn sight cheaper then the pre natal care, labour, post natal and 18 plus years in care.

MyrtleDove Wed 23-Apr-14 19:20:14

Lovely I take it you want women to die from backstreet abortions then? Because that is what happens when abortion is only available privately, as the Call The Midwife nuns I mentioned earlier would be only too glad to educate you about. Good to know you think so little of women's lives that you think only the rich ones are worth saving, and fuck the poor women who can't afford an abortion.

Nothing like abortion for bringing out the misogynists.

SoonToBeSix Wed 23-Apr-14 19:20:50

No I don't think abortions where the pregnancy is ectopic is wrong. If an abortion needed to be performed to save the women's life and without it both foetus and women would die I don't believe it's wrong but I wouldn't choose my life over my unborn child . I meant I believe all abortions where the baby will live are wrong I should have been clearer in my other post.

AnyaKnowIt Wed 23-Apr-14 19:22:03

SoonToBeSix Wed 23-Apr-14 19:15:40
Anya but the fetus is not part of her body , she is sustaining it yes but it is a separate entity whose life she is choosing to end.

And that is her choice.

Dawndonnaagain Wed 23-Apr-14 19:23:30

I love babies
I love all four of mine, to such an extent that had I become pregnant again (I'm 55 now) I would have had a termination. With good reason, but not justifying myself here because I don't have to.

gordyslovesheep Wed 23-Apr-14 19:23:38

so if the baby would live - but the woman could die - say by not having cancer treatment - that's okay with you?

BeyondTired Wed 23-Apr-14 19:23:49

And £ wise, even before that care, theres another x months of pregnancy and a labour to get through!

javotte Wed 23-Apr-14 19:24:48

Fizzy if you believe that my extremism is shocking then let me talk so that everybody can see that I am crazy. smile
I do not come here to troll or shock anyone. I come here to give my opinion about something I strongly believe in.

AnyaKnowIt Wed 23-Apr-14 19:25:22

But why should a women's life be put at risk?

BeyondTired Wed 23-Apr-14 19:25:54

And thats assuming it isnt a "medical reasons" abortion, that can raise the nhs costs a tad more

Swoopdewoop Wed 23-Apr-14 19:27:56

Javotte, I haven't been concentrating on the whole thread so sorry if you've answered this already:

do you accept the premise that while you are entitled to live by your beliefs, you are not entitled to force another being to live by them?

I love babies too.

I love mine so much that if I were to become pregnant again now, at 19, I'd abort that foetus, because allowing it to develop into a baby would have a detrimental effect on my baby.

the 'I oppose abortion because I love babies' argument is very weak.

MyrtleDove Wed 23-Apr-14 19:30:43

I love babies enough to know that I am not cut out for parenthood. Aborting a foetus before it became a baby I'd crappily look after seems to be by far the kindest thing to do.

IWillOnlyEatBeans Wed 23-Apr-14 19:31:35

Please could someone provide a link to the research showing that fetuses don't feel pain until after birth? I did not know that.

Firmly pro choice here.

Tevin Wed 23-Apr-14 19:36:41

It's important to keep having this debate (though for some of us it's real life not a debate) until women have full control of their own bodies. If we don't then you get governments sneakily making things harder: moving clinics so women have to travel, making women look at scans, enforcing 'counseling' with anti abortion groups. If I had been forced to jump through hoops to get a termination I would have died - how is that moral? How can it possibly be moral to torture women who don't want to be pregnant?
I never understand how people can say 'abortion is never right' then oh it's ok if the mother's life is at risk as if that is all women deserve. Why would we want careers, good health, enough money to support our existing children in a certain way etc etc? After all we're only women!

sandberry Wed 23-Apr-14 19:37:38

I think abortion up to the age of viability is pretty cut and dry. Nobody has an obligation to use their body to support another, if a woman wishes to remove a baby from dependence on her body that is her choice and right and as a fetus under 24 weeks gestation is not able to survive independently it will die. But people die everyday for want of kidneys and we aren't making donation of one kidney mandatory for all those with two, because we subscribe to the principle of bodily autonomy

Over the age of viability obviously the right to remove the fetus from dependence on her body remains, what does come into question is the ethics of feticide, to kill a child capable of living if removed from the womb and if it has a severe disability then the arguments around euthanasia come into play. I think late term abortions involving feticide are more of an ethical question mark. It is not the ending of the pregnancy, an absolute right of the woman in any circumstance but the deliberate killing of a child who may survive.

javotte Wed 23-Apr-14 19:37:46

Swoop yes, I do, when it is about your life only. But I believe that you do not have right of life and death on your child. From its conception.

AnyaKnowIt Wed 23-Apr-14 19:40:17

javotte Wed 23-Apr-14 19:37:46
Swoop yes, I do, when it is about your life only. But I believe that you do not have right of life and death on your child. From its conception

Why?

WilsonFrickett Wed 23-Apr-14 19:40:35

The 'I oppose abortion because I love babies' argument isn't even an argument. Spurious sentimental claptrap.

Dawndonnaagain Wed 23-Apr-14 19:40:54
poshme Wed 23-Apr-14 19:46:43

I know someone who had been sterilised because she was told that another baby would kill her.
She got pregnant. She already had 3 children.
I know that before all this happened she was prolife.
She had an abortion. Should she have been using contraception? Should she have been forced to die in order to carry on with the pregnancy, therefore leaving her living children without a mother? She thought (and had been told) there was no way she could get pregnant.
It's easy to be black and white when it's not you.
Should she have had to go to a back street anortionist?

Raskova Wed 23-Apr-14 19:49:04

Abortion is a very hard topic for me. I watched a video of a foetus wriggling away from whatever it is they use to terminate at later stage abortion. It was over ten years ago now and it still makes me feel sick.

Having said that, I am very much pro choice. That does not mean pro abortion. A woman should have every right to terminate if she wishes and have safe facilities to do so.

With rape and such things excluded, in this day and age, if you don't want to become pregnant there are many ways you can ensure you won't. It would be very hard if you are sensible to get pregnant by accident. That being said... I did it! I was very happy to know that if I wanted to terminate, there were supportive professionals I could talk to and safe places to do so.

Someone up thread said they didn't take MAP as life starts at conception... I'm guessing someone has pointed out that the MAP works before conception? Conception can take up to 48 hours. MAP works for 72. Unless it's changed.

BuggersMuddle Wed 23-Apr-14 19:50:31

Javotte I'm interested in where exactly those who are pro-life from conception would draw the line - it it purely at immediate risk to life?

You mentioned if continuing the pregnancy would kill the mother, fair enough.

What if it reduces her long term chances (e.g. putting off cancer treatment)? Or since the life of the mother and fetus are of equivalent value (in your view) should the mother have the treatment that's right for her even if a side effect is killing or severely harming the baby?

What if the pregnancy was risking the mothers health, but not her life? So carrying the fetus to term would lead to a long term detrimental impact on her health. Should she just accept this as a consequence of being a woman in a sexual relationship? I know of many women who would take grave risks to bring a child into the world, but I think there are probably just as many who would would have a point at which they would rather abort for the sake of their own health.

What if the fetus has a condition incompatible with life?

BeyondTired Wed 23-Apr-14 19:53:08

To the anti abortionists, what conditions would you set on me being able to take medication that is incompatible with pregnancy? What would you suggest if I then became pregnant anyway? By the way, these drugs can be used for abortion anyway, so even if I werent allowed one, it could happen accidentally.

thebodydoestricks Wed 23-Apr-14 19:55:15

Fizzy I am sorry if the thread offends you. Please feel free to hide it.

The trouble is people like baby doesn't have that option. She lives other people's doctrine and control of her body.

Of course everyone has the absolute right to never ever have an abortion. That's their absolute right.

However their views cannot be more valid than any other persons and they cannot and should not dictate to me or other women what they feel is acceptable for them.

I feel with the creeping forced birthers in America gaining ground we need to be vigilant and unequivocal.

I feel it's my body and my right to decide what is right for meand my life. No one elses just mine.

I have 4 children I love more than anything but if I got pregnant now I would expect to be able to terminate that pregnancy at the time of my choosing. I shouldn't need to justify myself to anyone at all.

javotte Wed 23-Apr-14 19:55:28

Buggers if the death of the foetus is a side effect of the treatment, it is not morally wrong for me.

If the foetus is ill, let him or her die naturally. A nine-month life in utero is not worth less than a 70-year-old life outside the womb.

I have never heard of conditions "risking a mother's health, but not her life". Osteoporosis? PND?

BeyondTired Wed 23-Apr-14 19:55:34

And i mean taking medication when i am not pregnant nor trying to be btw.
Would all premenopausal women have to remain untreated?

javotte Wed 23-Apr-14 19:56:44

thebody if you keep on calling pro-lifers "forced birthers", can I call you "baby killer"?

BeyondTired Wed 23-Apr-14 19:56:49

Prolapse? Any sort of damage from pregnancy or labour?

thebodydoestricks Wed 23-Apr-14 19:58:22

To add I never was or never have been controlled by my hormones

I don't know women who are. It's a myth. We are fully capable of deciding our lives pregnant or not.

I have met women who are mentally ill but they, and their babies, are protected under the mental health act.

javotte Wed 23-Apr-14 19:59:10

Beyond no, I don't think prolapse could be a valid reason to abort.
(BTW, can you determine that a woman will suffer from prolapse later in her pregnancy?)

basgetti Wed 23-Apr-14 19:59:23

Being made to wait for the foetus to die naturally killed Savita Halappanavar.

BeyondTired Wed 23-Apr-14 20:00:28

When i had antinatal depression, it was the fact that i wanted my baby that kept me alive. If i was being forced to carry a child i didnt want, that wouldnt have a nice happy ending of me sending baby off to a happy home for adoption, we'd both be dead.

AnyaKnowIt Wed 23-Apr-14 20:00:46

But its not baby killer is it? Its letting a woman decide what's right for her.

Pro life are forcing women to give birth when they don't want too

LoveSardines Wed 23-Apr-14 20:01:00

Something that is often overlooked on these threads is that forcing women to continue pregnancies and give birth when they don't want to is not just a easy nothing thing.

There are many risks associated with carrying a pregnancy to term, some of which can have a permanent effect on the health of the mother.
There are many risks associated with giving birth, some of which can have a permanent effect on the health of the mother.

These risks can include such things as loss of continence, loss of sexual function, permanent disability, death.
They can result in complications which preclude the possibility of further pregnancies / further safe pregnancies.

That is even before looking at mental health issues of varying severity which are highly prevalent both ante-natally and post-natally.

The fact that anti-abortion people never ever mention any of this is very telling, I think. They only ever mention "saving a baby's life", they never mention the risks they would force the mothers to take, the reason for this is (in my opinion) because they fundamentally do not care.

Thought it worth mentioning smile

MyrtleDove Wed 23-Apr-14 20:01:14

Javotte 'pro-life' people aren't interested in the life of the mother, so to call them 'pro-life' is inaccurate.

javotte Wed 23-Apr-14 20:01:15

Basgetti no, actually, it didn't (the lack of antibiotics did), but I think the case has already been discussed in the previous thread.

BeyondTired Wed 23-Apr-14 20:01:51

I have ehlers danlos syndrome, it makes my connective tissue stretchy and is significantly more likely than the general population that i would prolapse. And i did.

thebodydoestricks Wed 23-Apr-14 20:02:36

javotte up to you love. I have never or would never kill a baby.

I have assisted during an abortion when I was a student nurse. I also worked in a special care baby unit.

I see no contradiction.

My concern is always to support the pregnant woman first and foremost.

javotte Wed 23-Apr-14 20:04:35

Myrtle of course they are interested in the life of the mother. She is not an empty vessel carrying a child.

LoveSardines abortions also cause huge mental health damage (and even actual deaths), but it is never mentioned either.
What pro-abortion people also fail to mention is the number of mothers who abort their babies under pressure from their own parents / an abusive partner.

LoveSardines Wed 23-Apr-14 20:05:16

Oh and the actions of anti-abortionists in the UK and overseas give lie to their supposed stance that the baby and the mother should have the same rights. The fact is that they believe that any foetus at all and any stage is more important and should have more rights than the female vessel it is contained in.

sassysally Wed 23-Apr-14 20:05:48

It is not because they don't care about the mother's health, they just think that saving another human life trumps it.Why is that so hard to understand?

LoveSardines Wed 23-Apr-14 20:06:30

It's mentioned all the time Javotte.

By law it has to be mentioned when people go for an abortion.

At no point in my life did anyone sit me down and tell me all the possible risks of being pregnant, not even when I was pregnant.

twofingerstoGideon Wed 23-Apr-14 20:06:31

About backstreets abortions : I don't like the "it happens anyway so let's legalise it" argument. What about murder then? There have always been murders, shall we provide people with murdering facilities so that they do it in a cleaner way?

Quite the most ridiculous comparison ever.

TheBabyFacedAssassin Wed 23-Apr-14 20:07:01

javotte are you saying you think that is reasonable for a woman to suffer through her pregnancy knowing that her baby will die at delivery?

LoveSardines Wed 23-Apr-14 20:08:02

Hmm yes sassy

I suppose maybe they think women and girls should have rights as people up until they get pregnant, at which point all those rights switch to what is inside her and all of hers magically vanish.

LoveSardines Wed 23-Apr-14 20:09:04

Yes of course she is babyfaced.

Because once in 1962 a baby was supposed to die and didn't.

Therefore it is worth putting 1000s and 1000s of women through that just in case.

gordyslovesheep Wed 23-Apr-14 20:09:37

so no cancer treatment for mum then ...if baby is healthy

AnyaKnowIt Wed 23-Apr-14 20:09:42

What is pro abortion? No one is forcing anyone to have an abortion

Caff2 Wed 23-Apr-14 20:09:53

OK. My twopennorth, for what it's worth. I have had two abortions. They were extremely easy to obtain on the NHS and I was cared for by fantastic Women's centre staff. But. It, in my experience is extremely easy to obtain an abortion on the NHS with very few questions asked.

So I think we basically do have abortion on demand.

thebodydoestricks Wed 23-Apr-14 20:10:47

javotte so women again unable to make decisions for themselves?

Of course there are women who regret their abortions. Any decision can involve regret.

Doesn't mean making that decision illegal for everyone on that premise would be ludicrous.

Would you rather hundreds of women die in back street abortions as they do elsewhere and used to do here?

Please don't pretend to be interested in the life if the mother. If you are anti sbortion clearly you see her as an incubator.

MyrtleDove Wed 23-Apr-14 20:10:54

Sassy expecting women to sacrifice their health for a foetus is not caring about women's lives.

Javotte I am pro-choice, not pro-abortion. No woman should be pressured into having an abortion, it should be 100% her choice entirely. That's why it's called being pro-choice. Women should be able to decide what happens to their bodies.

TheBabyFacedAssassin Wed 23-Apr-14 20:11:41

Count yourself lucky Caff. Some of us don't have that option.

LtEveDallas Wed 23-Apr-14 20:11:57

Javotte, you ned to read the report posted in the other thread. It wasn't the lack of antibiotics that killed Savita.

If Savita had been given the abortion of the dying foetus that she asked for 48 hours earlier she would have lived.

But by waiting for 48 hours for the foetus to die 'naturally' Savita AND the foetus died.

2 days of 'life' for a non-sentinent being that was dying anyway was considered more important than the life of a living, breathing, conscious human being.

That is why women need bodily autonomy.

javotte Wed 23-Apr-14 20:12:58

TheBaby I know you are in a very difficult situation but yes, I believe so.
Not because, as LoveSardines supposes, a miracle might happen, but because the baby is alive in the womb. It is hearing, seeing light, feeling pressure, dreaming. It is a short life, but a life anyway, and I'd rather my baby lived 9 months than 12 weeks.
I am sorry if my words hurt you TheBaby but it is truly what I believe and it is the choice I would make.

BeyondTired Wed 23-Apr-14 20:13:09

Its not just no cancer treatment for mum though, it'd be no cancer treatment for women just in case they then became pregnant.

javotte Wed 23-Apr-14 20:14:21

Off to put the DCs to bed.
I appreciate being able to have this debate on MN.

AnyaKnowIt Wed 23-Apr-14 20:14:39

Oh god yeah, the child bearing age

LoveSardines Wed 23-Apr-14 20:14:43

"I'd rather my baby lived 9 months than 12 weeks."

And you would force that on everyone else as well, and happily expose them to all of the risks I posted upthread, including possibly precluding them from having any further pregnancies.

Caff2 Wed 23-Apr-14 20:15:14

Well, interestingly, the abortion I had at 19 has left me with huge guilt and ongoing problems psychologically, but I never really think about the one I had at 25.

AnyaKnowIt Wed 23-Apr-14 20:15:43

Javotte, if you truly believe that, the you should be ashamed of yourself

Binkyresurrected Wed 23-Apr-14 20:15:49

From the extreme pro lifer posting on here I'm getting that No matter what the mental or physical suffering to the mother, the family, the father or the unborn child, the baby must be born and have a chance to live, even if that 'living' is filled with pain and suffering and is over within minutes.

passmethewineplease Wed 23-Apr-14 20:15:55

YANBU I can't believe people actually think there should be a panel of judges to decide what happens to another person's body.

I am so pleased that as it stands we do have access to safe legal abortion I hate to think of the alternative.

thebodydoestricks Wed 23-Apr-14 20:16:41

sassy do you have children?

I have 4. Do you think that if I got pregnant I should be forced to carry a baby at cost of my life. That a foetus trumps my life.

So my dh and 4 children would be left to cope?

passmethewineplease Wed 23-Apr-14 20:18:45

Jab - how could you willingly stand there and say it's reasonable to force women to carry to term?

It is evil, and just shows how insignificant the women are to you and other anti abortionists.

SoonToBeSix Wed 23-Apr-14 20:20:05

Melon the fetus is still alive just because in early pregnancy it cannot survive without the women doesn't make it dead .
And no I wouldn't deny a women cancer treatment but neither would I offer them an abortion .

TheBabyFacedAssassin Wed 23-Apr-14 20:20:40

javotte your words do not hurt me. You are entitled to your opinion.
Though please explain to me why you think this is reasonable?

I really can't fathom why some people would deny women the right of access to legal abortion. Whether you like it or not, it's going to happen - it always has and it always will - and while I hope and pray that I am never in a position where I would need to consider having one I am beyond thankful that we live in a country where women who do not want to continue with an unwanted pregnancy have the ability to abort it in a safe and controlled environment. The alternative is far worse.

AnyaKnowIt Wed 23-Apr-14 20:21:56

Great so not only will more women dying or being greatly affected by childbirth, but cancer death rates go up too.

Women haters!!!

SoonToBeSix Wed 23-Apr-14 20:21:57

Melon I said she rather than the mother purely as it's less letters to type . You are reading far too much into things.

Caff2 Wed 23-Apr-14 20:26:32

As I said, I have had two abortions and I think actually I could benefit from some counselling - I do feel guilt, particularly for the first abortion. I saw my ex boyfriend's facebook profile and the pictures of his children, and it made me want to cry. And I do have children and am happy in my relationship.

MyrtleDove Wed 23-Apr-14 20:27:23

Soon yes the foetus is biologically alive, but it does not have personhood. Being a person is about more than just being alive, otherwise animals would be people too.

SoonToBeSix Wed 23-Apr-14 20:28:25

The body you shouldn't assume what other people think. I care very much about the life if the mother . I don't think the fetus is more important I believe they are a hundred percent equal.

gordyslovesheep Wed 23-Apr-14 20:32:02

well I don't thing anyone has advocated trawling cancer wards 'offering' abortions hmm

but people HAVE argued that abortion where the foetus is healthy and mum not in immediate risk is wrong

Cancer is one such example - delaying treatment may have a negative effect - but no guarantee it will kill her - selfish thing hmm

Dawndonnaagain Wed 23-Apr-14 20:32:08

I don't think the fetus is more important I believe they are a hundred percent equal.
Actually the foetus is a parasite.

SoonToBeSix Wed 23-Apr-14 20:32:19

Yes Mrytle you are right being a person is more than being alive I agree.

AnyaKnowIt Wed 23-Apr-14 20:32:25

Caff2. Would you been able to see your go for counselling?

AnyaKnowIt Wed 23-Apr-14 20:34:29

SoonToBeSix Wed 23-Apr-14 20:28:25
The body you shouldn't assume what other people think. I care very much about the life if the mother . I don't think the fetus is more important I believe they are a hundred percent equal.

You are not treating them as equal if you are putting the fetus first

basgetti Wed 23-Apr-14 20:34:57

If you believe the foetus is equal to the mother, then you are prioritising it over her by default because you would see her risk her physical and mental health, and her life, to gestate it.

thebodydoestricks Wed 23-Apr-14 20:35:48

javotte that's the choice I would make

Excellent but if it's not your choice then don't make it.

It was babys right to choose and people just like you denied her.

So you do have children.

If you became ill and were pregnant then you would quite happily not be treated and die so making the children you have orphans?

Oh and poor savita died because she wasn't considered above saving over a foetus with a heart beat. Read the report.

MyrtleDove Wed 23-Apr-14 20:36:51

Soon it's total nonsense to give a non-viable foetus equal personhood with a living breathing human being. Do you think women who have miscarriages should be jailed for murder? Should women who drink or smoke before finding out they are pregnant and subsequently miscarry be jailed for manslaughter? Should a foetus who kills its mother (like Savita's foetus killed her) be jailed for murder? I mean, if you can put the mother on trial and the foetus is 100% equal, surely you should put the foetus on trial too?

Surely you can see how ridiculous it gets when you give a foetus equal personhood with the mother - it's totally illogical and unscientific, not to mention totally inhumane. By the way, anti-abortion legislators in the US really do want to put women in jail for having miscarriages, and want all pre-menopausal women to be considered pre-pregnant. It is a real danger for those of us who appreciate our bodily autonomy.

TheBabyFacedAssassin Wed 23-Apr-14 20:44:10

Myrtle your post reminded me of something I wanted to post earlier.

Now this is Northern Ireland specific but it is relevant. In the last 4 weeks it has been decided by the powers that be that all still births (which here in ni they now class as any baby born from 18 weeks gestation) must be investigated by the coroner and a report issued. This investigation can involve any medical professional involved with the care of the pregnant woman and also a visit to her home by the police to investigate any potential 'criminal activity' that might have led to the stillbirth.

This is the direction Northern Ireland is going. Not thousands of miles away in the US but right across the English Channel.

lovelyjubberly Wed 23-Apr-14 20:45:26

Haha so I'm a misogynist because I oppose abortion? Actually I'm a feminist and respect women that much that I think we're capable of brilliant and intelligent things, including obtaining free contraception and using it correctly.

Fyi I'm a single parent and support my family single handedly with no benefits. I'm a strong woman and would like to help all women to aspire to more in every aspect of life.

MyrtleDove Wed 23-Apr-14 20:46:57

TheBaby how awful, and how shocking that this is allowed to happen in the UK. I am consistently appalled by how far NI is allowed to drag behind the rest of the UK re abortion, equal marriage etc.

I'm not aware of your specific circumstances having only just joined, but I do very much feel for women in NI being kept in the dark ages. It's appalling.

Dawndonnaagain Wed 23-Apr-14 20:48:00

including obtaining free contraception and using it correctly.
Perhaps you'd have a word with the doctor that inserted my coil. They took it out with the placenta. hmm

Glampinglove Wed 23-Apr-14 20:49:36

I am pro choice but I feel very conflicted about late term abortions.

For those that believe that a woman should have the right to abort at full term without question do you also believe that a woman can abuse drugs and alcohol during their pregnancy without any repercussions?

gordyslovesheep Wed 23-Apr-14 20:51:17

as a feminist I don't think I have the right to tell other women what to do with their bodies

but if people are anti abortion the solution is shocking simple ...*DON'T HAVE ONE* as to the rest - it's non of your business

MyrtleDove Wed 23-Apr-14 20:51:22

Lovely seeing abortion in terms of 'cute babies' and condemning poor women who can't afford a privately funded abortion is hardly feminist. Abortion being freely available on the NHS is a brilliant, intelligent, life-saving thing. Why should only rich women get an abortion?

And what about women who are raped, or abused, or have a contraception fail? What about women whose partners purposefully impregnate them against their will (yes, this happens)? Do they just not count as proper women to you, because they were unable to obtain free contraception and use it correctly?

Valuing foetuses over women is inherently misogynistic. You don't know the meaning of 'feminist'. How come a 92 year old nun is more of a feminist than you?

ifyourehoppyandyouknowit Wed 23-Apr-14 20:52:11

I don't particularly object to a fetus having a right to life, I just don't think it should have the right to live inside my body, against my wishes.

twofingerstoGideon Wed 23-Apr-14 20:53:41

You could ban safe abortions and use the money saved to set up foundling hospitals. People could go there for a nice day out to admire the sweet little unwanted children.

AnyaKnowIt Wed 23-Apr-14 20:54:39

Yes because all contraception is 100% hmm

Oh no...wait...

twofingerstoGideon Wed 23-Apr-14 20:54:59

Sorry. After a couple of days of reading fuckwitted forced-birthers spouting nonsense about the rights of the fetus trumping the rights of the mother to have life-saving medical treatment, I'm in the mood for some sarcasm.

including obtaining free contraception and using it correctly So all post-pubescent girls and pre-menopausal women should have the implant fitted/take the pill/have a coil fitted regardless of their situation (be it in their sex life or medical compatibility to hormonal contraception) incase they become pregnant through rape? Or they have the audacity to have a medical condition that is caused or exacerbated by pregnancy and puts their own life at risk? Doesn't really sound like helping women to aspire to more in every aspect of life.

TheBaby That is terrifying.

stottiecakes Wed 23-Apr-14 20:55:29

I don't feel any guilt for having a termination nor do i care that people on the net may disagree or are appauled at a decision i thought through and made for my own sanity and the welfare of my family. The people who matter to me know and stand by my choice. I understand people have a different opinion even though i don't agree with it and theres nothing i can do to convince them otherwise so it's pointless trying. If they are anti-abortion and find themselves with an unplanned pregnancy then its their choice what they do with their pregnancy and they have to live with their choice as i do mine. I don't know anyone who use termination as contraception that i know of and the 2 other people i know in RL who have had terminations did so after much thought and choose to do what they thought was right for them at that time so i respect their choice as an adult to decide what to do with their pregnancies. .

gordyslovesheep Wed 23-Apr-14 20:55:56

oh yes - you could even make 'wicked sinful girls' who dares to have sex work for free doing the laundry and such as penance for having babies

twofingerstoGideon Wed 23-Apr-14 20:56:28

lovelyjubberly You are most certainly not a feminist.

MyrtleDove Wed 23-Apr-14 20:57:48

Glamping I don't think women should be criminalised for alcohol and drug abuse during pregnancy. Again, it's about bodily autonomy. There's also the problem of defining 'abuse', especially regarding alcohol - some medical bodies recommend no alcohol during pregnancy whatsoever, so a woman having a small glass of fizz on her wedding anniversary could potentially count as alcohol 'abuse'. There are so many conflicting guidelines on safe alcohol intake during pregnancy that it would be difficult to enforce fairly. With drugs, most women who abuse hard drugs during pregnancy are suffering from some kind of severe mental health issue....I don't think criminal action would be appropriate.

I am in favour of late term abortions for medical reasons only, I think, but these are still my thoughts on alcohol/drugs etc. For me it's not quite the same issue.

twofingerstoGideon Wed 23-Apr-14 20:57:57

TheBaby your post at 20.44 is shocking.
A forced-birther's wet dream, in fact.

Oh right, so I should have left my baby with his feet trapped in my cervix for as long as it took him to die, even though it increased my risk of infection and I couldn't bare him being trapped like that unable to move

After all its better to be alive right? And he might have survived even though his limbs might have been damaged and his lungs not developed.

So I shouldn't. Have had the right to choose that he die peacefully in my womb, the environment he was used to for the last 20 weeks. Rather than during birth or struggling for breath after he was born

lovelyjubberly Wed 23-Apr-14 20:58:12

Myrtle I would support better care for women who keep their baby, help in training and finding work etc. Women are capable of better than abortions. I doubt many women want to have their pregnancy stopped or baby taken away.

I love my child, I'd rather have died if someone tried to make me abort. Why not help women to keep their babies?

Dawndonnaagain Wed 23-Apr-14 20:59:11

And what about women who are raped, or abused, or have a contraception fail? What about women whose partners purposefully impregnate them against their will (yes, this happens)? Do they just not count as proper women to you, because they were unable to obtain free contraception and use it correctly?
Javotte has made it quite clear that she will not support abortion for rape victims.

Dawndonnaagain Wed 23-Apr-14 21:00:07

Myrtle I would support better care for women who keep their baby, help in training and finding work etc. Women are capable of better than abortions. I doubt many women want to have their pregnancy stopped or baby taken away.
And in Baby's case?

AnyaKnowIt Wed 23-Apr-14 21:00:16

Glampinglove Wed 23-Apr-14 20:49:36
I am pro choice but I feel very conflicted about late term abortions.

For those that believe that a woman should have the right to abort at full term without question do you also believe that a woman can abuse drugs and alcohol during their pregnancy without any repercussions?

Drug and alcohol abuse is classed as an illness.

gordyslovesheep Wed 23-Apr-14 21:00:53

oh no one is making anyone abort - what a big pile of shit ...unlike people who are wanting to take that option away

women need abortion - that's why they have them

AnyaKnowIt Wed 23-Apr-14 21:01:52

Why not help women to keep their babies?

What if the woman doesn't want too?

YADNBU

Moomin flowers

lovely I hope you read Moomin's last post.

gordyslovesheep Wed 23-Apr-14 21:02:28

also some qualification and a job a) wont magically make women want to be mothers and b) assumes those who have abortions have shit qualifications and are jobless

that isn't true smile

gordyslovesheep Wed 23-Apr-14 21:02:57

Moomin thanks

LoveSardines Wed 23-Apr-14 21:03:50

lovelyjubberly you can "doubt" that "many women" want to have their pregnancies "stopped" as much as you like, but a cursory glance at the figures around the world will show you that actually you are wrong. Lots and lots of women and girls are really quite keen indeed on having their pregnancies "stopped".

So there you go.

Eeyore86 Wed 23-Apr-14 21:03:53

Long time lurker (penis beaker, Pom bears etc) and felt I had to comment on this so finally joined.

javotte I have a question for you as to what you think of this potential situation.

beyond tired mentioned that they have Ehlers Danlos Syndrome (eds) as do I, now it don't have children (lurked due to DN and godkids) now my eds causes repeated joint dislocations and I have a permanent disability due to an injury which means I have problems walking my pain relief consists of morphine in different types several times a day.

Now if I became pregnant it would be detrimental to my health, I would end up in a wheelchair for the majority of the pregnancy and it would cause me mental distress due to the increase in pain (pain is bad enough daily anyway due to my disability and chronic pain) I probably wouldn't be able to continue to work due to the pain so that would cause further issues and most importantly my medications would impact hugely on the foetus, if the pregnancy progressed to birth then the baby would be born addicted to morphine and go through withdrawal and require methadone the same as if I had been taking heroin every day, and the baby could potentially face further complications from this as I well. (I can't stop taking my medication as lesser painkillers don't work)

Not to mention the very real risk of passing on my genetic condition to the baby which I would impact on its quality of life

Would I be wrong to have an abortion in this situation?

LoveSardines Wed 23-Apr-14 21:04:57

"For those that believe that a woman should have the right to abort at full term without question do you also believe that a woman can abuse drugs and alcohol during their pregnancy without any repercussions?"

What sort of repercussions are you referring to?

thebodydoestricks Wed 23-Apr-14 21:05:34

loverkyJubberly interesting start to a post on a thread of such pain shared here by posters!

The only ha ha I can see is you describing yourself as. Feminist.

Binkyresurrected Wed 23-Apr-14 21:06:09

Why not help women to keep their babies?

Because I didn't want to keep my baby. No matter what was on offer to help me, I didn't want it.

TheBabyFacedAssassin Wed 23-Apr-14 21:07:24

Shocking and terrifying.

Myrtle, if you are interested in my story you can have a look at my previous posts. I've explained quite a lot about my current situation as I think it is pertinent people see and face up to what happens when the anti-abortionists are in charge of the law.

Ps - I would love to have met those nuns!

BuggersMuddle Wed 23-Apr-14 21:09:04

Javotte Health is a difficult one, I agree - I was thinking more in terms of getting cancer treatment as early as possible tbh even if docs say you could wait, it's not aggressive etc.

Obviously things like birth trauma, prolapse etc. can't be foreseen, but as someone who is pro-choice, I think the risk of these things is a powerful argument against those who would prefer all women went to term and then have the resultant baby adopted.

To be honest, a preference not to suffer HG, severe SPD or pre-eclampsia for months would be enough for me (even though these should resolve), because you are putting your health at risk for the duration of the pregnancy. (Which again, is acceptable to many women who want a baby).

MyrtleDove Wed 23-Apr-14 21:09:25

Lovely but why should women be forced to continue a pregnancy they don't want? That's the issue here. 'Women are capable of better than abortions' is patronising shit. Plenty of women have had abortions and do not regret them at all. Some women abort BECAUSE they love their child too much to let it suffer. For lots of women, their abortion was the best decision they made.

You are free to not have an abortion if you don't want one. No woman should be forced to have one - but women should be able to have a free, safe and legal abortion if they should want one. As I said before, if I got pregnant tomorrow (very unlikely but being single I am not on contraception, clearly I am an irresponsible woman according to you hmm ) I would abort as soon as I found out. It would absolutely be the best thing for me - there would not be a 'better than abortion' option.

Also, am I reading your comment correctly - you want women to not give their babies up for adoption too? You basically want to force women to continue a pregnancy AND keep the child? hmm HOW is that remotely feminist? Feminism is about women making free choices for themselves, not being forced into 'better' decisions.

TheBabyFacedAssassin Wed 23-Apr-14 21:11:37

Moomin you are in my thoughts x

AnyaKnowIt Wed 23-Apr-14 21:11:57

Yes, with dd I had to spend the last month of pregnancy in bed unable to walk and giving myself daily injection.

I can't imagine what it would be like for someone who didn't want to be pregnant.

22honey Wed 23-Apr-14 21:12:17

a woman should have the right to end a pregnancy at any time, obviously after 24 weeks this isnt allowed here as many babies would survive after this point, still the woman should be able to remove the child from the uterus if she wishes when its at viability but I do believe if the child could live outside the womb it should be allowed a chance.

MyrtleDove Wed 23-Apr-14 21:12:45

Thanks TheBabyFacedAssassin. And they are fabulous nuns! Were talking about 60s contraception over lunch grin

MyrtleDove Wed 23-Apr-14 21:14:35

thanks Moomin

(was typing while you posted I think)

stottiecakes Wed 23-Apr-14 21:16:10

lovelyjubberly i what if the mother whilst pregnant was suicidal and had attempted suicide, would you force her to carry on with her pregnancy to make her a better person. No one is making anyone try and abort, they are chosing to terminate their own pregnancies because they can and its their choice. As a single mother do you not get WTC?

22honey Wed 23-Apr-14 21:18:32

by allowed a chance I mean medical assistance on the baby (which would effectively be premature) after birth if needs be, nothing to do with the mother having to do anything. People are dying to adopt babies by the way, although it is true there is more children than adopters within the state foster care/adoption system in the UK.

AnyaKnowIt Wed 23-Apr-14 21:20:54

People are not dying to adopt hmm

22honey Wed 23-Apr-14 21:22:51

'
For those that believe that a woman should have the right to abort at full term without question do you also believe that a woman can abuse drugs and alcohol during their pregnancy without any repercussions?

Drug and alcohol abuse is classed as an illness.'

I put this very point across on the other thread and non surprisingly the only reply it got was some long winded post about a poster and her friend, and where they wouldn't mind if their friend had a glass of wine but not a bottle of vodka, 1 cigarette but not 20 and loads of other moralising crap, totally missing the point in the first place which is if its the womans body and her choice, the argument always given for abortion (and drug addiction is often not a choice anyway!) to the point she could abort a full term fetus if she wished, then it is also her body and her choice to take drugs and alcohol.

No 'pro life' person has the right to judge a drinker or drug taker during pregnancy whatsoever.

22honey Wed 23-Apr-14 21:23:56

People who wish to adopt are dying to adopt babies, Anya. I didnt say people are dying to adopt in general.

thebodydoestricks Wed 23-Apr-14 21:25:00

moonmin flowers

As ever my admiration for the pain and suffering just on this thread of women with real life issues surrounding pregnancy is only mirrored by the complete shock at the glib dogmatic crap spouted by forced birthers.

AnyaKnowIt Wed 23-Apr-14 21:26:29

Well there is the problem, people only care about babies.

Not the 8 year old in a care home...

Swoopdewoop Wed 23-Apr-14 21:26:56

Question for the pro lifers: how much does religion influence your view?

pommedeterre Wed 23-Apr-14 21:27:48

I don't understand why pro lifers aren't spending their time campaigning for better services for abused children. There are children alive who are scared and suffering. Why the concern with the tiny foetuses that wouldn't survive outside the womb in front of the children in the world that can be actively helped?

The only answer I can have is that it is about controlling women. Where else can the logic take me?

And then I come to the fact that 50% of the foetuses that would be forced to be born would be female and doomed, in the pro lifers society, to being controlled and dictated to by society.

TheBabyFacedAssassin Wed 23-Apr-14 21:28:27

22honey what is your point about the drugs/drinking during pregnancy? I can't see how it is relevant tbh. Are you trying to get people to make a statement of judgement?

22honey Wed 23-Apr-14 21:30:26

Well yes Anya, its not very nice is it and shows our society up for what it is, makes no difference whatsoever to the thread though!

I am not a pro lifer by the way I believe a woman should be able to get an abortion. The point is these same women advocating even late term abortion on the grounds its the womans body all the time the baby is inside her, must also accept this stance when it comes to pregnant women suffering from drug and alcohol addiction as its their body, and such 'pro lifers' have no place judging them either.

AnyaKnowIt Wed 23-Apr-14 21:31:54

Pommerderre that's because they care about the cute babies. Once a woman has been forced to give birth that's it job done.

22honey Wed 23-Apr-14 21:32:08

thebaby because throughout pregnancy the womans body is hers thus she can do whatever she likes with it/to it, including kill/abort the fetus AND consume drugs and alcohol if she wishes.

Im merely saying you cannot think one or the other without being a massive hypocrite. None of this means that I am a pro lifer or against abortion, so please dont try to make out that I am or put words in my mouth, as is common on mumsnet.

AnyaKnowIt Wed 23-Apr-14 21:33:58

Alcohol and drug addiction are illnesses are they not?

LoveSardines Wed 23-Apr-14 21:34:42

"For those that believe that a woman should have the right to abort at full term without question do you also believe that a woman can abuse drugs and alcohol during their pregnancy without any repercussions?"

What repercussions are you talking about?

Name them and then you might get a response.

22honey Wed 23-Apr-14 21:36:08

yes, yet still women who do such things are judged and torn down as immoral. When really it is their body and their choice (even though addiction isnt a choice therefore they should be afforded even more sympathy)...so why arn't they given more compassion and sympathy than someone choosing to abort because of some rather mundane reason like being unable to afford an extra holiday every year with a child?

Every woman should be allowed to do whatever they like during pregnancy without judgement, thats my point.

thebodydoestricks Wed 23-Apr-14 21:36:28

pomme because that would be useful I agree.

Forced birthers (not using pro life as it's been hijacked, I am pro life and pro choice) these people just want to dictate and control women. Not help.

TheBabyFacedAssassin Wed 23-Apr-14 21:36:40

22honey I just asked you to clarify your point... Keep your pants on!

I haven't seen anyone say anything that could be even slightly misconstrued as hypocritical...the only person talking about drink/drugs is you.

22honey Wed 23-Apr-14 21:36:57

Lovesardines, it wasnt me who mentioned any repercussions. I was merely discussing moralizing and judgement.

TheBabyFacedAssassin Wed 23-Apr-14 21:38:59

22 have you been reading the same thread I am?! This whole thread is about the woman's right to bodily autonomy - her body, her choice. No one is arguing with you!

22honey Wed 23-Apr-14 21:39:07

thebody, who agrees with forcing someone to give birth? Some people dont agree with late term abortions of healthy babies, in this case the woman would have to give birth if the baby was alive or dead!? So what difference does it make which one it is?

AnyaKnowIt Wed 23-Apr-14 21:39:35

Drink, smoke, drugs, ect.

Do what you like while pregnant

LoveSardines Wed 23-Apr-14 21:39:46

huh?

What people who believe that women should have autonomy over their bodies, simultaneously believe that they shouldn't use drugs or alcohol?

That is not a position that I have seen pro-choice people take, given that it would be entirely illogical.

The people who believe that women and girls should not be allowed to smoke, drink, consume caffeine, attempt suicide etc etc when they are pregnant are the anti-abortion people. Some of them would like these restrictions extended to all females of child-bearing age.

You are barking up the wrong tree.

AnyaKnowIt Wed 23-Apr-14 21:40:45

So what difference does it make which one it is?

Motherhood

LoveSardines Wed 23-Apr-14 21:41:17

22honey some posters on this thread advocate forcing women to give birth, and no abortion under (more or less) any circumstances.

namechangejustforthisthread Wed 23-Apr-14 21:41:40

swoopdewoop - to an extent these days. But I was pro-life long before I was a Christian. I wasn't brought up in a religious household, or one with pro-life beliefs (my mum disagrees with me on this).

passmethewineplease Wed 23-Apr-14 21:43:54

What if people don't want to continue with a pregnancy? It doesn't matter what support there is, if it isn't wanted that's that.

The baby, your post is scary, I can't believe that! shock

thebodydoestricks Wed 23-Apr-14 21:44:33

Autonomy is autonomy.

No ifs or buts.

Women have just the same rights to abide their bodies as men. I would probably assume that it's better for such women to access abortions anyway but again that's their choice to make never ever mine or anyone else's.

Thankyou everyone.

I think unless you have been in the position you really dont know what you would do.

I made some decisions in those two weeks that I never dreamt id make, especially the induction.

When it came down to it I had decide what was best for my health, my unborn son and my 16, 8 and 6 month old children.

And you know what? If it means a small minority of women will have lots of terminations or some will decide later on that actually they dont want a baby anymore. I can live with that, because people like me and baby and everyone else should have the right to choose what happens with our bodies and our babies.

Swoopdewoop Wed 23-Apr-14 21:48:43

Thanks for answering namechange. I'm pro choice but went to a catholic school and have only seen the debate in those terms ie life is a gift and must be cherished etc, and yes, even to the detriment of the mother, 'because she's had her life' and naturally heaven will be waiting. Of course the notion of 'original sin' made it vital for the child to survive long enough to be baptised.

I was told that in primary one or two and I consider that to be nothing short of brainwashing.

Sorry, bit of a derail but part of the wider conversation.

sassysally Wed 23-Apr-14 21:51:37

'Forcing women to give birth ' is a loaded and illogical phrase.Birth is the default outcome of pregnancy so nobody is forcing anything, they are witholding an unnatural medical intervention.
Anyway I have reported this thread as it is a thread about a thread, and has twisted poster's views from the original

AnyaKnowIt Wed 23-Apr-14 21:54:16

OK, forcing women to continue with a unwanted pregnancy.

Its not a thread about a thread, its a part 2

LoveSardines Wed 23-Apr-14 21:55:48

There are lots of "unnatural medical interventions" involved in pregnancy and birth these days.

There are of course many who would like to deny women and girls all of them. And access to contraception as well.

TheBabyFacedAssassin Wed 23-Apr-14 21:55:59

Hahaha sassy you are joking! right? Sour grapes because your goadfest didn't go as planned? Grow up, we are having a discussion. And there are REAL people with REAL experiences that are sharing and learning from each other. If you don't like the thread go somewhere else.

Re the use of the word "forced", what word do you use when someone is made to do something that they don't want to do?

passmethewineplease Wed 23-Apr-14 21:56:40

I thought this was just continuing on from the previous thread as it was full?!

Either way withholding that medical treatment is barbaric.

But hey no one gives a shit about the woman and her health.

LoveSardines Wed 23-Apr-14 21:56:56

Strangely those who talk about "unnatural medical interventions" only tend to do so when it comes to talking about things to do with female reproduction.

An interesting anomoly that.

whattowatchnext Wed 23-Apr-14 21:57:46

I am on the fence too. I believe in women's rights, and agree that outlawing abortion will only lead to harmful back street abortions. I am in favour of abortion in the first trimester and thereafter for medical reasons only up to 24 weeks. No, I don't hate women, and I'm not a misogynist, and I do care about the mother too, before you all start flinging straw men arguments at me.

However I have no time for the extreme pro choice brigade who bang on about their RIGHTS to the exclusion of everything else, refuse to recognise that a foetus is more than a bundle of cells, can feel pain, and deserves respect and recognition. If you honestly think it's ok to abort a child up to full term then there's a chip missing somewhere, of course that's not a morally acceptable thing to do.

Thebody, in the nicest possible way, I think at age 50 it's highly unlikely you're still fertile and able to carry a baby to full term.Possible, but extremely unlikely. So you seem to be frothing about something that's entirely hypothetical - are you just bored?

TheBabyFacedAssassin Wed 23-Apr-14 21:58:56

swoop I really appreciate your post and don't think you are derailing at all. I have been trying to understand the different reasons for why some people are anti-abortion, thank you for sharing.

MyrtleDove Wed 23-Apr-14 21:58:59

The religious argument, naturally, also changes depending on the religion involved. The traditional Jewish position is that life begins at birth, for example (though there are individual Jews who disagree of course).

Speaking personally, I am a Christian and firmly pro-choice (I suspect going to stay with nuns is quite a giveaway there!). The nuns, obviously, are Christians and also pro-choice. I do get annoyed when being anti-choice is assumed to be the default position (by other Christians who are anti-choice I mean, not people who have been hurt by religious people being anti-choice - that's understandable). I am very sorry for the harm that has been caused by anti-choice people in my faith's name.

Binkyresurrected Wed 23-Apr-14 21:59:40

Isn't contraception an 'Unnatural Medical intervention'? are you wanting that stopped as well, or should be reduce access to it and only have it available for women that are prepared to go to court and prove their case. Or do you only reserve court for those seeking abortion Sassy. It was you that suggested that on the last thread wasn't it?

AnyaKnowIt Wed 23-Apr-14 22:00:03

If you honestly think it's ok to abort a child up to full term then there's a chip missing somewhere, of course that's not a morally acceptable thing to do.

Why?

lovelyjubberly Wed 23-Apr-14 22:00:32

Stottie no I don't get wtc. I do thanks to women who have to abort due to baby having medical problems, it must be heartbreaking.

The majority of abortions are not related to medical problems though. As I said previously, I don't go out and campaign against abortion, but I am allowed to disagree with it. I do campaign vehemently against child abuse etc and do voluntary work. I would love to adopt a child(ren) too, as I said, I love babies and children.

I'm not going to bother to keep in this conversation and will agree to disagree. I'm surprised that some of the aggressive pro-abortionists don't agree you can be a feminist and disagree with abortion, I don't see how removing your foetus is a symbol of success and achievement, I'd rather try to smash the glass ceiling and provide a better life for my child than do that and I will do for my beloved child.

namechangejustforthisthread Wed 23-Apr-14 22:01:09

babyfaced, I've been reading your posts, they are both heartbreaking and thought provoking. Perhaps it's my ignorance but I have never considered that there would be women in the uk in your position. It's hard to get my head around the fact that things are so different.

Much as I consider myself pro-life, and I find it hard to pin down my thoughts on the case of babies with abnormalities which are incompatible with life, I think the "best" argument I can come up with is that it should in this case be a matter for individual conscience / choice, and that doctors should be neutral, providing advice on both options equally. I know that when my baby was diagnosed with anencephaly (for those who don't know, a severe abnormality, incompatible with life, involving most of the baby'd brain and top of the skull failing to develop), the option of termination was presented to me as the only option, and I felt under a lot of pressure.

I didn't terminate, but baby's heart stopped beating at 22 weeks, and she was born asleep. I hoped I would carry to term, but honestly changed my mind a million times a day as to what was the "right" thing to do. As you know only too well, there is no happy ending, no good outcome. I can only speak for myself, and the reasons I didn't terminate - which were that I felt strongly that I did not want to make the decision to end this baby's life, I wanted God / nature to decide, that I wanted to value this child's life just as much as any other no matter what abnormalities she had (I am not suggesting for a minute that those who terminate don't value their babies, I know the opposite is true having spoken to many women who have terminated after an anencephaly diagnosis). I also wanted to care for my baby for as long as I could, I wanted her to develop inside me, hear my voice, and have the best life she could however short, even though I knew she would not live after birth. I am glad that I got to hold her, and meet her properly, that I have memories of her, photographs and footprints. I think that because of my pro-life views, I felt I could no more terminate than I could end her life for her if she did breathe after birth. that's how it felt to me.

I don't honestly know what I would do if it happened to me again. I can't even say with 100% certainty that I would not have terminated that pregnancy had it not ended naturally when it did. I just lived day by day not wanting it to be then, and who knows whether I would have stuck it out to the end. In that position again, I would know what was coming and wonder whether I really would be able to face it, and also these decisions are never black and white. My baby with anencephaly would not have suffered, with other conditons where they might, I know that would be unbearable to watch, and to be forced to do that would be barbaric.

But there is a world of difference between choosing to carry to term with a fatal diagnosis and being forced to do so. I don't know what I think about the law, I only know that after what I've experienced, and after I have met so many women who have made the decision to terminate for medical reasons, who have loved and grieved for their babies and made their decision for reasons which were right to them, and for them, I don't believe I have any right to make that decision for them, much less to judge the decision they made out of love for their babies.

I'm hesitating to post this; I hope it answers some of your questions, in some way, about the other side of the debate. I hope you have all the support you need over the next few weeks / months.

Northernexile Wed 23-Apr-14 22:01:14

Reading the thread with interest, didn't see the previous thread (yet), and this is a bit of a tangent, but I am in NI and haven't heard about this new legislation TheBaby mentioned. I can't find anything online to indicate things have changed re 18/24 weeks etc, in fact it still says on the NI Direct site that stillbirths don't have to be registered at all. I would be very interested to find out more if someone can link to an article?

Back on topic, I don't believe anyone should have the right to tell a woman what to do with her own body.

An unnatural medical intervention, well I was induced so does that mean we should not allow any inductions? Even ay 40+ weeks

Or the d&c I had due to a mmc, afyer all its another unnatural medical intervention.

Or should we just denigh the ones that suit you?

thebodydoestricks Wed 23-Apr-14 22:03:50

22honey

There are many people who wish to deny women abortions at any stage.

I don't seek to wonder how other women should act in their pregnancy.

It's up to them.

AnyaKnowIt Wed 23-Apr-14 22:04:41

It was an unnatural medical intervention that saved dd's life when I was in labour

MyrtleDove Wed 23-Apr-14 22:05:09

whattowatchnext I don't think that a foetus is more than a bundle of cells, sorry. The personhood of a foetus is not a scientifically verifiable fact.

As for late-term abortions, currently these only happen for medical reasons - there are medical conditions incompatible with life that are diagnosed late in the pregnancy. I think allowing an abortion at full term in those circumstances is perfectly morally acceptable, and don't have a chip missing. For me personally, it is my rights re pregnancy that matter to the exclusion of anything else. My body, my rights, my decision.

Why any reason for the first trimester, and then medical reasons up to 24 weeks? A foetus is still not viable until 24 weeks.

namechangejustforthisthread Wed 23-Apr-14 22:05:50

swoopdewoop, I don't believe in a God who sends babies to hell because their parents haven't had them baptised, or because they didn't live long enough. It isn't biblical, and it doesn't fit with the image of a loving and just God. I do find it frightening that you were told that at a young age.

LoveSardines Wed 23-Apr-14 22:07:26

In the UK 89% of abortions are carried out before 24 weeks.

This does not, to my mind, indicate that British women are feckless bitches who will leave it later than they need to just for a laugh.

The idea that if abortion were legal to term, British women would start randomly opting to have full term babies aborted at the last minute for no reason apart from they feel like it, assumes that women are on the whole fundamentally selfish and not a little evil. This is a mysogynistic view of women.

People who view women as normal full human beings do not believe that women would start terminating 42 week pregnancies on a whim, just because they could.

LoveSardines Wed 23-Apr-14 22:08:25

12 weeks that should say, sorry! 89% before 12 weeks.

AnyaKnowIt Wed 23-Apr-14 22:10:17

Lovesardines its all those pesky hormones innit

MyrtleDove Wed 23-Apr-14 22:10:25

lovely perhaps go and chat to the Call The Midwife nuns yourself and see how legal and safe abortion was necessary for any glass ceiling to be smashed. I think women who saw women dying from excessive pregnancies in tenement slums have more feminist insight than you will ever know. It saved lives and lifted women out of poverty. If I was pregnant, my abortion wouldn't be a symbol of success or achievement, it would just be a necessary medical procedure to enable me to have a happy life.

You have every right to not have an abortion yourself, you do not have the right to claim that restricting reproductive rights for other women (especially poor women) is any kind of feminism.

thebodydoestricks Wed 23-Apr-14 22:11:07

sassy report away chik.

You can't shut us all down or make people like baby go away as you have no answers.

Your posts inspired this thread.

That's why you want to shut it down.

Shame on you.

blackcats73 Wed 23-Apr-14 22:11:39

I believe in abortion on demand up to when the fetus becomes a viable baby at 24 weeks.

I agree with the poster who stated that anyone who agrees with abortion to term, unless the fetus has a terminal illness, or the mother's life is at risk (then special care units are more appropriate) is completely , morally and scientifically wrong. Just as extreme, heartless and callous as those who thinks a six week old embryo has a right to life. Bonkers!

WE have it right in this country, abortion until 24 weeks. No later no decrease in limit.

thebodydoestricks Wed 23-Apr-14 22:12:15

lovesardines hear hear.

Swoopdewoop Wed 23-Apr-14 22:12:42

namechange thank you for sharing your experience. I think some of us needed reminding we're talking about real people and real heartbreak. thanks

AnyaKnowIt Wed 23-Apr-14 22:13:10

I agree with the poster who stated that anyone who agrees with abortion to term, unless the fetus has a terminal illness, or the mother's life is at risk (then special care units are more appropriate) is completely , morally and scientifically wrong.

I keep asking, why?

MyrtleDove Wed 23-Apr-14 22:15:40

blackcats that poster didn't actually specify medical reasons being a reason for late term abortions. Late term abortion is available here but only for medical reasons.

I do think that the current law is right.

blackcats73 Wed 23-Apr-14 22:16:04

Anyway the body, if you believe in abortion of a healthy fetus up to term, then YBVVVVVVU!

Swoopdewoop Wed 23-Apr-14 22:17:11

lovely "I'm surprised that some of the aggressive pro-abortionists don't agree you can be a feminist and disagree with abortion"

It's purely the forcing of one's values onto another human being that's the non-feminist part.

I'm a feminist. I most likely would not choose one for myself, but I held my friend's hand when she chose to have an abortion and I kept my opinions to myself.

Swoopdewoop Wed 23-Apr-14 22:18:07

namechange you're right, it's bloody terrifying. I'm still angry about it.

AnyaKnowIt Wed 23-Apr-14 22:18:10

, if you believe in abortion of a healthy fetus up to term, then YBVVVVVVU!

Again, why?

TheBabyFacedAssassin Wed 23-Apr-14 22:22:08

Northern I'm not sure how widespread the knowledge of it is at present to be honest. At my last appointment with my consultant 2 weeks ago he showed me the communication that had been sent out by the directors of foetal medicine in the royal. Apparently these changes are all down to the new attorney general who took over 18 months ago. I am seeing my consultant in the morning and I can ask him for further information if you like?

namechange I sincerely appreciate you sharing your story here. I completely understand the living one day at a time. My daughter has thanatophoric dysplasia and there is a strong possibility that her heart could stop at any time. I wake up every morning dreading that today might be that day but also hoping that it is. I hope that makes sense. I've spent 10 weeks in this hell and have another 10 weeks to go. I feel her wiggle and move and although I love it, I hate it equally as I am constantly reminded what I won't have. It's getting the point that I am reluctant to go to a public place as so many people, whose intentions are good, smile at me and ask how far along I am, when I'm due and if I'm excited. I just smile and play along. All I keep thinking that had abortion been available to me this part of the nightmare could be over by now and I could be grieving in a more natural sense. I love my daughter, I have loved her since the day I saw those 2 lines appear on the test. I will always love her and always remember her.

Sorry that went into a bit of a ramble. If termination had been available to me I would have taken that option in order to protect myself and my future mental and physical health. I don't believe that would have meant I I loved my daughter any less.

Binkyresurrected Wed 23-Apr-14 22:22:16

I think I have found a study on self termination of pregnancy, I am having trouble reading it as I can't open it fully (problem with adobe), if anyone would like to read it, I believe it will be of interest, google hospital admissions due to pregnancy terminations

Scroll down and there is a PDF title "reason for hospitalization due to abortion", its on the researchgate.net website.

LoveSardines Wed 23-Apr-14 22:23:44

Abortion is available to term in the UK for "foetal abnormality". As in “there is a substantial risk that if the child were born it would suffer from such physical or mental abnormalities as to be seriously handicapped.”

Just FYI. Many consider this law to be disablist, for obvious reasons.

stottiecakes Wed 23-Apr-14 22:23:47

lovelyjubberly I love kids, do you think i don't as i have had a termination and agree with people being able to choose what to do with their pregnancy and in some cases they do so for the wellbeing of their existing kids. I have 3 and love them all, they deserve a healthy mentally balance mother.

blackcats73 Wed 23-Apr-14 22:25:26

Anya, because the fetus (with medical help) at that stage is capable of independent life. They save 24 week old fetuses in special care. How can you justify ending the life of a 25 week old fetus in one woman and then saving a 25 week fetus in another just because it has passed down the birth canal. Physiologically it is the same.

On a theoretical level, I understand the argument of abortion to term. Really it's not going to happen. I mean really, how many doctors would you find who would terminate a term, viable fetus/baby. I mean really?

AnyaKnowIt Wed 23-Apr-14 22:27:17

Abortion is available to term in the UK for "foetal abnormality". As in “there is a substantial risk that if the child were born it would suffer from such physical or mental abnormalities as to be seriously handicapped.”

Just FYI. Many consider this law to be disablist, for obvious reasons

Yep this and that I don't believe that hundreds of full term pregnant women will be demanding abortions.

thebodydoestricks Wed 23-Apr-14 22:28:09

blackcats

Just about understood the text speak.

Er no it's not about my personal view or with respect yours!

It's about the pregnant persons view and her rights over her body.

I don't seek to control or push my views on anyone else.

Not sure that's the definition of unreasonable!!

Kendodd Wed 23-Apr-14 22:29:12

* if you believe in abortion of a healthy fetus up to term, then YBVVVVVVU!*

Again, why?

Why is it u to think it's not ok to abort a full term fetus? Well this raises the question 'when is a fetus a baby'. I think anyone who thinks it's ok to abort at full term is mad imo, of course it's not ok. Would it be ok to abort while the woman was in labour? Can people really not see that at some point along that journey it is not ok to abort the baby. It really isn't just a moral black and white, it's not just autonomy over your own body, there is another person living inside you.

I think it's also bonkers if people think a blastocyst as the same 'rights' as the person it's inside of.

blackcats73 Wed 23-Apr-14 22:29:22

Sorry too many reallys, but amazed (apart from on a theoretical level) how anyone could justify aborting a fetus past 24 weeks (unless the fetus has a serious life limiting illness)!!!

thebodydoestricks Wed 23-Apr-14 22:30:31

black I have assisted during an abortion and worked my arse off in special care baby units as a nurse.

I see no conflict at all. None.

blackcats73 Wed 23-Apr-14 22:31:23

Agree kendodd

The body, what text speak?

LoveSardines Wed 23-Apr-14 22:31:49

blackcats it is legal in the UK if there is a risk that the baby will be disabled to a certain level.

Thus, theoretically, a perfectly healthy baby could be aborted legally at term in the UK.

Swoopdewoop Wed 23-Apr-14 22:32:58

babyface that's so sad for you. I'm truly sorry you're in this position. It's awful.

MyrtleDove Wed 23-Apr-14 22:33:01

Kendodd it's not 'mad' to abort a foetus at full term that's going to be stillborn or die very soon after birth.

AnyaKnowIt Wed 23-Apr-14 22:34:55

But who am I (or you) to say, right here is a cut of date?

It is legal to abort to full term for a disabled child? Why is that OK?

blackcats73 Wed 23-Apr-14 22:36:34

So the body. Did you assist in the termination of a post 24 weeks healthy fetus?

The line ( I think) is viability.

Again, I believe in abortion on demand ( for any reason) until 24 weeks then only for life limiting reasons past 24 weeks.

Still, everyone is entitled to their views. I don't think the law is going to change. It is right now.

Oh and I did get to meet my baby, we have pictures, footprints. We had a funeral.

The majority of women who have terminations later in pg give birth too. They dont just take you to surgery at 20 odd weeks pg, put you to sleep then wake you up when its all done.

blackcats73 Wed 23-Apr-14 22:38:43

Anya. I don't believe it's right to terminate a disabled fetus to term. I work with children with disabilities.

I believe it it right to terminate a fetus to birth which will be born with severe life limiting conditions.

namechangejustforthisthread Wed 23-Apr-14 22:39:00

babyfaced, I agree wholeheartedly that making that decision would not have meant you loved your daughter even a tiny bit less. She will always be your daughter and you will always love her, I don't think anybody could doubt that. I completely understand the feeling of not being able to start grieving "properly" although of course you are already grieving in a sense. I identify with wanting to avoid public places and well meaning excited comments too.

It's occured to me that I have heard of women from Ireland travelling to England for a termination - but have just realised how expensive that would be, and that presumably it creates a two-layer system where termination is available to women who can afford to pay for it but not those who can't? Correct me if I'm wrong. I can't begin to imagine how having to make the journey must add to the trauma of the whole thing, but that's another thread. I honestly didn't know that termination would not be available to someone in your position in Ireland, even as an "early induction". It has shocked me that this happens, and nobody hears about it. You are so brave to tell your story and draw attention to the way things are. It has really made me think twice about the right to choose thanks

Moomin....just thanks for you too. I don't think anyone has the right to judge the decision you made either, to prevent your baby from suffering, and I don't believe anyone knows what they would do until it happens.

Kendodd Wed 23-Apr-14 22:39:08

MyrtleDove

Yes, sorry I should have qualified that, and the law as it stands allows for that and abortions for 'social' reasons up to 24 weeks. IMO I might want to bring this down to 22 weeks for social reasons though.

For the people who think it's fine to abort for any reason up to full term are you really not uncomfortable about aborting a baby who could survive perfectly well and with no special care outside of the mother?

AnyaKnowIt Wed 23-Apr-14 22:40:52

Black cats, you said you thought the law was right?

LoveSardines Wed 23-Apr-14 22:40:57

I am off to bed now but I agree with Anya etc.

Logically, if you believe that females have the right to bodily autonomy, then you have to support abortion to term, as any other position means removing autonomy at some point.

If you also believe that women and girls are not in the main stupid evil harpies, then you understand that were abortion available to term it would not result in a sudden influx of women wanting to have incredibly late term abortions just because they fancy it. This is borne out by the statistics and, well, the evidence of anyone who has actually met any women and noticed that they aren't, you know, stupid evil harpies.

AnyaKnowIt Wed 23-Apr-14 22:41:59

Nope, not uncomfortable

namechangejustforthisthread Wed 23-Apr-14 22:42:05

So sorry Moomin, I do know that later terminations involve going through labour and giving birth. I was thinking only in terms of my own situation, that if I had terminated at the 12 week scan when anencephaly was diagnosed, I wouldn't have had that - didn't mean to trivialise your experience at all.

AnyaKnowIt Wed 23-Apr-14 22:43:05

Yy Lovesardines

gordyslovesheep Wed 23-Apr-14 22:44:12

well of course it's not comfortable - but being 100% pro-choice means you don't get to chose easy fluffy options

the natural conclusion to being pro choice is that a woman has 100% autonomy and therefore could theoretically abort for any reason at term

it would be hypocritical to have a cut off point where the rights of women suddenly don't have precedence

it doesn't mean I would run down the street shouting with joy and handing out balloons if a woman chose (theoretically) to do so - but I can't be against it without being a slippery eel

thebodydoestricks Wed 23-Apr-14 22:44:20

baby my heart goes out to you. I can absolutely see how people would be asking you about your bump. People do. How bloody dreadful for you.

See for me I always feel that the posters here advocating women's rights and choice over her body are so much more empathetic and kind than the forced birthers.

They are also more practical and sensible.

Kendodd Wed 23-Apr-14 22:44:34

It is legal to abort to full term for a disabled child? Why is that OK?

Ok lets imagine the 'disability' is that the baby has no lungs, it can survive perfectly well inside the mother but has no chance at all outside. The mother goes late for her 20 week scan, arrives at 24 weeks to be told this. I would not want to force the mother to carry this baby to full term if she didn't want to.

blackcats73 Wed 23-Apr-14 22:46:01

Okay Anya I did. I've ad wine (DCs at Grandma!!) The law is right about abortion to 24 weeks for any reason. I disagree with abortion of a fetus past 24 weeks, for reason other than terminal conditions.

Again, I understand the theory. But in reality I think most people wouldn't condone the termination of a viable fetus.

I'm off to bed, as I've had too much wine and have work tomorrow.

AnyaKnowIt Wed 23-Apr-14 22:46:08

I kendodd, I don't think anyone should be force to continue with any pregnancy

gordyslovesheep Wed 23-Apr-14 22:46:27

pro'lifers' get to be slippery as fuck mind with their 'except in rape cases' or 'if the baby is disabled' or 'if the woman used 787878 different types of contraception and is only 2 hours pregnant' stuff

I admire the more radical prolifers who have the same amount of guts to stand by the horrible implication of their position much more than the ones who squirm out of them

AnyaKnowIt Wed 23-Apr-14 22:47:14

Ah ok black cats, night

Sorry namechange, my comment wasnt aimed at you. I understand where you are coming from and would have continued myself if it wasnt for hes feet becoming trapped in my cervix x

Kendodd Wed 23-Apr-14 22:50:27

ok, what about if the woman was in labour and the baby was in the birth canal, still ok to abort?

namechangejustforthisthread Wed 23-Apr-14 22:51:15

It is legal to abort to full term for a disabled child? Why is that OK?

Usually because many serious abnormalities cannot be detected until the 20 week scan. The scan is often not definitive, and further tests are required to be certain of prognosis etc, there may be a period of waiting and re-scanning to see how the baby develops and again to be certain.

I can see why it seems abhorrent. But removing this would effectively remove the option of termination from most women carrying a baby with a severe abnormality, and put them in baby's position - which I hope even the most staunch pro-lifer can see is awful.

MyrtleDove Wed 23-Apr-14 22:52:20

I was under the impression that once labour has started then it would legally cross from abortion to foeticide - any MNers with better legal knowledge than me know otherwise?

thebodydoestricks Wed 23-Apr-14 22:53:20

kendodd I might want to bring this down to 22 weeks for social reasons though

bingo do we have the panel of judges here?

Ok so what was she wearing when she got pregnant?

Slut! Social reasons!!! No abortion denied.

Perhaps we could get Simon Cowell to do a new show

Abort or keep.

Vile vile vile

AnyaKnowIt Wed 23-Apr-14 22:55:30

Yes I agree, don't think I was clear in my argument

I was comming from a disablisist angle. Abort disable child - legal. Not disabled - you are labeled a baby killer iyswim?

thebodydoestricks Wed 23-Apr-14 22:57:30

Anya agree.

What do you mean by once labour has started myrtle

Kendodd Wed 23-Apr-14 22:59:25

thebodydoestricks

Did I say any of those other things? No.

The reason I might want to lower that is just because 22 weeks is in a tiny number of cases viable and viability is my line. Although 24 weeks is the time medical intervention is more commonly used and even then outcomes are very very poor. I would also argue raising this to 26 weeks before major interventions to save the baby.

gordyslovesheep Wed 23-Apr-14 23:02:08

I often think people get confused by the term 'social' in this case it doesn't mean 'so you can go out socialising' 'social' can mean separation, homelessness, being beaten by your partner, going to jail, partner going to jail, job loss, illness in other children/family members, etc

TheBabyFacedAssassin Wed 23-Apr-14 23:02:58

Thanks namechange. We could potentially have travelled to the mainland to have the procedure performed but I felt that leaving my family, friends and familiar surroundings behind to go to a strange place would have been more than I could cope with. With my current situation I am familiar with my local hospital and see my consultant often which makes the experience less traumatic. Early induction is not a massive possibility again because of the threat I mentioned earlier about investigations into still births and threat of criminal implication for the doctors concerned. Might poss get induced at 37 wks though.

Am off to bed now, have a scan tomorrow first thing at the antenatal unit. Oh here's a fun fact, I get to sit in the antenatal unit waiting area surrounded by all 'normal' pregnant women, that's not cruel at all, huh?

Kendodd Wed 23-Apr-14 23:04:32

I often think people get confused by the term 'social' in this case it doesn't mean 'so you can go out socialising'

I don't think anyone with half a brain misunderstood what social meant in this context.

thanks baby, thats just awful

gordyslovesheep Wed 23-Apr-14 23:05:12

the legal reasons for abortion are:

continuing with the pregnancy would involve a greater risk to the woman's life than ending the pregnancy

continuing with the pregnancy would involve a greater risk of injury to the woman's physical or mental health than ending the pregnancy

continuing with the pregnancy would involve a greater risk to the physical or mental health of any of the woman's existing children

there is a significant risk that if the child is born s/he would have a serious physical or mental disability.

that is it

gordyslovesheep Wed 23-Apr-14 23:05:55

oh Baby xxxxxxxxxx I;m sorry

MyrtleDove Wed 23-Apr-14 23:10:50

Moomins sorry I was responding to Kendodd asking if it was OK to abort once labour is started.

MyrtleDove Wed 23-Apr-14 23:12:00

thanks Baby thoughts are with you

thebodydoestricks Wed 23-Apr-14 23:26:33

baby thoughts, flowers

CaptChaos Wed 23-Apr-14 23:36:14

Just caught up with this one.

Just wanted to add my YANBU but I think that the poster's view will become more prevalent, sadly and I think it is because of that woman the daily fail is presently abusing. It seems to be polarising views on abortion to an alarming degree.

To be clear. I am pro-woman. I believe that women are human beings who have the right to constant bodily autonomy, I believe that women should be able to choose to terminate a pregnancy in her own uterus up til birth.

Baby sending all good wishes for tomorrow. I can't even imagine what you're going through, so can only offer a hand to hold.

twofingerstoGideon Wed 23-Apr-14 23:36:47

thanks Baby.

thebodydoestricks Wed 23-Apr-14 23:38:06

Capt as ever great post.

pommedeterre Wed 23-Apr-14 23:39:34

Love pro woman capt. That's a great way of explaining it.

BuggersMuddle Wed 23-Apr-14 23:42:29

Baby Your situation is horrible and whilst I know you have to deal with it, I am absolutely in awe of your calm and measured contribution to this debate given your circumstance thanks

thebodydoestricks Thu 24-Apr-14 00:12:07

buggers me too.

ravenAK Thu 24-Apr-14 00:17:36

Baby - just adding to the chorus of us in awe of you on these threads.

itsbetterthanabox Thu 24-Apr-14 08:26:09

A lot of people have said they pro life for themselves and pro choice for other women. That is being pro choice! It's exactly that, a choice, and just because you choose not to have an abortion yourself in the circumstances you have fallen pregnant doesn't make it pro life.

LoveSardines Thu 24-Apr-14 09:07:34

captchaos what woman being demised by the Mail?

Is that the one who has been posing for pics holding her 18 week bump and saying she is now going for a termination so she can take part in big brother?

lookingfortheanswer Thu 24-Apr-14 09:26:29

I think the pro life argument makes little sense, apart from the staunch pro lifers 'no abortions for anyone ever' which though I disagree with them I do at least respect. The arguments of the others are much more about controlling women, and punishing them for sexual behaviour. If abortion is murder then why is it fine for rape victims, underage girls, cases where the mother's life is in danger? Oh yes, because those women didn't choose to have sex and therefore haven't brought it on themselves. If a fetus's life is as valuable as the mother's then how is ok to kill a fetus conceived of rape. It's about controlling women's behaviour, dressed up as caring about babies.
I am absolutely pro choice, until term. Anything else involves a lot of conflicting opinions and doublethink.

MaidOfStars Thu 24-Apr-14 09:27:41

Sorry too many reallys, but amazed (apart from on a theoretical level) how anyone could justify aborting a fetus past 24 weeks (unless the fetus has a serious life limiting illness)

The reason I might want to lower that is just because 22 weeks is in a tiny number of cases viable and viability is my line

Still confused (continuing from previous thread) about why this subjective threshold, one that depends entirely on environment and has fuck all to do with anything that could be considered an important property of either the fetus or the mother on which a reasonable discussion of rights can be based, is trotted out with such regularity.

There is no logical connect between the observation that 'babies born at 24 weeks can, in theory, survive" and the moral position "therefore we must not allow abortion after 24 weeks". It is an is/ought fallacy.

I will ask (again): Was a baby's right to life less valuable in 1955 (where viability at 24 weeks was negligible)? Does a Malawian baby have less intrinsic value than a UK baby (where viability in Malawi at 24 weeks is negligible)?

Do we really base our discussions on how valuable a life is, or how sacrosanct bodily autonomy should be, based on how good science is?

MaidOfStars Thu 24-Apr-14 09:31:30

To add (again for lack of answers on other thread):
What is 'viability' anyway? One heartbeat, a hundred heartbeats, a life time of heartbeats? Is one breath enough?

And what of the cases where fetal 'viability' is a meaningless concept?

AnyaKnowIt Thu 24-Apr-14 09:55:03

Thinking of you today baby

I firmly believe in abortion to term.

Anything else is not full autonomy for women.

I say this as someone unlikely to choose to abort, except for medical reasons.

But that would be my choice that is right for me. I would not be inflicting my POV onto anyone else, they are free to make the choice that is right for them.

I think, though, that in practice you would get very few abortions so late, because most women would have made their choices much earlier.

And many of those pro-lifers in America are hypocrites. They stand and shout outside abortion clinics, but when you ask them (as I did once) to put their money where their mouths are and actually provide real financial support to a woman who was choosing abortion, you could see the dust flying as they backed off sharpish. All they care about is inflicting their own views onto other people.

And in this country, if we limited abortion in line with what the pro-lifers want, where are we going to find the cost of raising the children that would otherwise not be here? I'm not sure of the average cost of raising a child, but believe it's in the region of £200,000 plus to the age of 18.

Who's going to pay? The parents who didn't want the child? They can't afford it. The State? Again, I don't think we can afford it as a nation.

And the latest annual figures I can find show that just under 190,000 abortions took place in 2011. Even if just 10% of those went full term (as the pro-lifers want) and were put up for adoption, we would need 19,000 families PER YEAR to be ready to adopt. There is simply no where near that number of families wanting to adopt, so many of the children that would be born will end up in care,condemned to a harder life.

Pro-choice for me.

FreudiansSlipper Thu 24-Apr-14 10:00:01

YANBU

I am pro choice and that does mean women have full autonomy over their body to full term

to not have full autonomy over my own body takes away my freedom

thebodydoestricks Thu 24-Apr-14 10:04:21

Thinking of you baby just feel all the mumsnetters who are supporting you xxx

More thanks for baby, I'll be thinking of you today.

CaptChaos Thu 24-Apr-14 10:14:31

lovesardines and Moominsarescary yes, Josie Cunningham.

What she is doing is not illegal, and yet, she is being told in no uncertain terms, by the general public, what a terrible person she is. I get that she's not a poster girl for abstinence, I get that she might not be everyone's cup of tea, but she's not breaking the law.

It seems that the Fail has succeeded in generating a heated debate about abortion from it.

Northernexile Thu 24-Apr-14 10:17:37

baby, thanks for replying. I am pg myself, and would be interested to find out more about these new rules for that reason, and also because I work for a political party here and tend to pick up on most of these things, but this has totally passed me by. The AG is very hard line from what I have heard.

I will be thinking about you today. I am from England and it really upsets me what some women have to go through here. It's barbaric.

thebodydoestricks Thu 24-Apr-14 10:19:16

^^ well of course it's 2 issues isn't it.

The one is the autonomy of a woman over her body pregnant or not so abortion should be available in demand at any stage.

The second is practical. Who on earth is going to look after all these children born to womem who don't want to give birth for many reasons all of which are up to them and no one else's business.

One forced birthers here said they can be adopted!!! Hilarious, the care system would collapse.

Who on earth is going to deal with the hundreds of womem injured/dead by the inevitable ride in back street abortions.

One forced birther said i don't agree with back street abortions well who the fuck does? It would become a hideous cottage industry as in the past.

We must ensure the abortion time limit instead of being cut is raised to term, in my view,

But everyone should have a choice.

LayMeDown Thu 24-Apr-14 10:22:50

Can I ask posters who support abortion to term what this means in practice?
Up to 24 weeks it is clear cut. An abortion is performed, the foetus is not viable so does not survive, but after that point what happens? If hypothetically a woman decided to abort at say 37 weeks then those advocating 100% choice, what happens in those circumstances? I assume the position is the woman has a right to choose to end the pregnancy. Even if we agree with this, at this point the pregnancy can be ended without ending the life of the unborn. Is the suggestion that the heart should be stopped before delivery? Or that the woman be induced and the child placed in care? I am genuinely interested to know what abortion to term means in practice?

AnyaKnowIt Thu 24-Apr-14 10:22:54

With Josie Cunningham what people have failed to notice is that channel 5 are discriminating against her for being pregnant.

AnyaKnowIt Thu 24-Apr-14 10:26:11

If a woman chose to abort at 37 weeks I would assume that it would be carried out the same way as a late term abortion would.

SpanishLady Thu 24-Apr-14 10:27:15

I wasn't going to post as feel both camps have become so obstinate in their views what would be the point of attracting attacks on myself but I have read the other thread which was actually about judging a friend found to have an abortion and now this one and am slightly repulsed by the mudslinging on that thread and some misrepresentation on this thread of the first thread.

I don't feel the need to be compartmentalised by any side as to what I am or should be called eg pro life or pro choice etc because terminating pregnancy isn't a black and white thing and thank fuck for that - it should be emotive, difficult and taken seriously by which I mean the discussion/consideration of it not the actual access to a termination.

I find it sad that in 2014 in a first world country we still have the situation where women get pregnant without choosing to and therefore having to make this decision about continuing with a pregancy or terminating it but then I grapple with why some people have kids only to treat them like shit or in some cases horrifically abuse them - I don't have the answer, I doubt anyone does but Christ it sucks.

I have not had a termination myself nor been in a position of having to consider one - I have 3 kids - so I haven't walked in those shoes and it is this plus the abhorrence for me of thinking of girls/women being in such fear of the consequences of having a child that their lives are threatened by backstreet abortionists that are the cornerstones of why I support the safe and open offer of abortion on demand within the law.

However, to refer to the thread that preceded this one - I do judge women who have had terminations. Not children who get pregnant, not rape victims, not those who have to for medical reasons or those who decide for whatever reason they want ( circumstance, career, relationship, money, DV etc) - but I judge any woman who doesn't then think to herself at the very least "well that was unpleasant/inconvenient situation" and ensures to her utmost ability never to have to put herself through it again.

I judge women who use it as birth control ( thankfully feel this is few in the big scheme of it but I do know a few in my RL) and I judge women who do not seem, to me anyway, to assume the responsibility not to have to put themselves and those around them in the same situation again by absolutely everything within their control.

In the other thread someone ( am sure they will be along to say their piece shortly which is of course fair enough) mentioned a friend who had had 6 terminations despite using double contraception. Simply put I don't understand this. Even after the 2nd/3rd time wouldn't she and her partner have agreed that their way of preventing pregnancy was obviously not working for them and look for another solution? I know someone myself who has had 5, I just don't get why an otherwise smart, witty, beautiful successful woman didn't take more steps to protect herself.

This leads me to this thread as my thoughts on the OP's question is that yes I believe she should have autonomy over her own body like the women cited above but not always with impunity sometimes the right to make a decision for yourself should come with thought, respect and consideration of the consequences and I think a duty of care to minimise the chance of history repeating itself.

I guess that is my struggle with abortion - I want people to feel some respect and care about what they are doing.

But to be clear by this I don't mean women in sack cloths and ashes, feeling ashamed and guilty - what good is that? I feel only sympathy they had to make the decision and would not want some poor woman being haunted by it - what is done is done.

OP, if you don't mind my asking, have you considered having your tubes tied or your partner having the snip? You are emphatic that you don't want more kids and want autonomy over yourself so empower yourself then and take whatever steps required to control this part of your life. I may be mis understanding you but it reads to me as if you are saying ' I could still get pregnant, I 100% don't want this! but it's ok if I do because I have the right to an abortion' my argument is why take the risk of seeing if you do get unlucky? Why be in the position at all? Why is abortion easier then a vasectomy?

LayMeDown Thu 24-Apr-14 10:27:55

And how is that Anya. I'm not being obtuse, I genuinely don't know.

Dawndonnaagain Thu 24-Apr-14 10:30:56

I am genuinely interested to know what abortion to term means in practice?
It means having a choice. It means autonomy. I, like many others, would suggest that if all is well with the pregnancy and a woman suddenly chose to abort, there would be much discussion about the mental health of the woman. As for the rest, go read baby's story.

In 2011, 146 abortions were carried out after 24 weeks, according to the stats I saw.

I really can't see that there would be a massive increase in this if the limit was raised to term instead of 24 weeks.

AnyaKnowIt Thu 24-Apr-14 10:32:51

However, to refer to the thread that preceded this one - I do judge women who have had terminations. Not children who get pregnant, not rape victims, not those who have to for medical reasons or those who decide for whatever reason they want ( circumstance, career, relationship, money, DV etc) - but I judge any woman who doesn't then think to herself at the very least "well that was unpleasant/inconvenient situation" and ensures to her utmost ability never to have to put herself through it again.

Oh yes, those dirty sluts hope they fucking suffer! hmm

FreudiansSlipper Thu 24-Apr-14 10:37:31

so a women has to have a valid enough reason for you to be able to respect her decision to abort

how about she does not want to share her reason with anyone as it is no one else's business what happens to her body

CaptChaos Thu 24-Apr-14 10:39:57

Anya Given the slant that the Fail et al have put on the story, the facts, such as C5 discriminated against a woman for being pregnant, so she is choosing to deal with that in a way that a fair few have had to in the past has fallen by the wayside.

That she had a 'boob job' on the NHS is constantly mentioned as well, without the qualifier that she has a genetic condition which meant she failed to develop breast tissue.

It all has the 'bread and circuses' stench to it really.

LoveSardines Thu 24-Apr-14 10:39:57

I have not heard of josie cunningham but why would being pregnant preclude her from appearing on big brother? I don't get it. Would she be due when it's going out or something?

People are talking about the cost of looking after all the children in care etc if abortion was banned. Let's not forget the additional enormous costs to the health service of providing all that ante-natal and post-natal care, mental health services, more HV etc etc etc - maternity wards are under the cosh as it is. There would also be a huge cost to the economy in terms of women having time out for appts and of course mat leave / pat leave, and loss to the economy through having a large part of the workforce not progressing as they might. There is the toll of ongoing problems as a consequence of birth which would cost in terms of medical treatment and loss of working days. That in turn would set back women's rights in employment equal pay etc. And thinking about it, many businesses say they would think twice about hiring a woman of child-bearing age, if abortion was illegal that would get much worse. It'd set us back decades probably.

Sounds like a great idea all round!!!

AnyaKnowIt Thu 24-Apr-14 10:40:11

Its back to that court again isn't it FreudansSlipper

CaptChaos Thu 24-Apr-14 10:42:24

Laymedown If you are interested, Marrie Stopes has an excellent leaflet about how abortions are performed.

FreudiansSlipper Thu 24-Apr-14 10:42:29

this attitude annoys me more than pro lifers (though have no problem with pro lifers who do not judge other i know of a few, not many)

AnyaKnowIt Thu 24-Apr-14 10:43:15

Don't read the fail, not good for my blood pressure.

Binkyresurrected Thu 24-Apr-14 10:44:11

How about the cost of fixing the damage caused by the backstreet abortions that WILL happen if a woman's rights to abort are removed.

AnyaKnowIt Thu 24-Apr-14 10:44:26

Thank you CaptChaos, was looking for a link.