To Consider Homeopathic Teething Gel Appalling?

(216 Posts)
UncleT Mon 21-Apr-14 14:56:54

It's being advertised on the telly at the moment. It 'contains' 12c dilutions of herbs. Look up 12c and you'll rapidly find out that this means none of the substance remains in a sample. Other ingredients are water, ethanol, a sweetener and gelling and lubricant agents. There is nothing that will help with teething pain.

Famzilla Mon 21-Apr-14 14:58:21

Welcome to homeopathy.

CarmineRose1978 Mon 21-Apr-14 14:59:30

Homeopathic ANYTHING is appalling.

UncleT Mon 21-Apr-14 16:16:16

I am aware of homeopathy in general and how stupid it is. It just somehow seems worse marketing it to the gullible to fool the into thinking it will reduce a baby's discomfort when it won't. Adults taking sugar pills is fine if they're silly enough to want to, but this is a whole different league of bad.

RiceBurner Mon 21-Apr-14 16:16:56

YANBU, and what CarmineRose1978 said.

MewlingQuim Mon 21-Apr-14 16:36:13

Yanbu.

I fell out with a friend I'd made in my antenatal class because she used it and I couldnt hide my horror.

If you take homeopathic medicine the placebo effect works on you.

If you give your baby homeopathic medicine the placebo effect still works on YOU. Your baby is still in pain. sad

ImAThrillseekerBunny Mon 21-Apr-14 16:54:07

Ethanol dulls the baby's pain a bit (as does sugar in the older teething granules). Woo makes the parent relax a bit. But I agree that a dose of calpol would probably do more good.

MistletoeBUTNOwine Mon 21-Apr-14 16:56:29

I just bought some Nelsons teething granules hmm
Are they the same?

ImAThrillseekerBunny Mon 21-Apr-14 16:58:10

What does it say on the label mistletoe? When mine were little I think they were essentially sugar, which took their mind off the pain quite effectively.

PolkadotsAndMoonbeams Mon 21-Apr-14 16:59:05

Doesn't some of the effect actually come from rubbing it on the gums though? So that would still happen.

But a painkiller would probably be better.

meddie Mon 21-Apr-14 17:03:37

The only thing that bothers me about them is that they will most probably work. sucrose has been shown to work as an effective pain relief in babies during painful procedures, it interferes with the pain signals. homeopathic granules/powders are just sugar, so they will do the same thing. my problem with that is it reinforces the belief that homeopathy is actually effective...

sassysally Mon 21-Apr-14 17:04:13

You are wrong because placebo is proven to be effective in reducing symptoms even among animals.
Also the premise of homeopathy is that the substance leaves behind some sort of 'memory' in the dilutant.This is not something science can explain , but then the laws of science have been turned on their head many times in the past.
personally I don't really believe teething causes pain.m yr old don't even notice when their '6yr old' molars come through.Or teens when their wisdom teeth come erupt unless they are growing wrong.

UncleT Mon 21-Apr-14 17:05:53

The gel has no sugar. It only has xylitol. The amount of ethanol in it will do sod all too.

ImAThrillseekerBunny Mon 21-Apr-14 17:07:24

How much ethanol is there in it? Bonjela used to be 40% alcohol, exactly equivalent to my DM's suggestion of rubbing brandy on their gums.

meddie Mon 21-Apr-14 17:08:58

xylitol is still very sweet, its the 'sweet ' signal that distracts babies

5feralloinfruits Mon 21-Apr-14 17:09:09

My friend has used them,she said they work,mine have amber necklaces and have never complained with teething,all 5 of them.could be a coincidence,but either way,they look pretty!

MistletoeBUTNOwine Mon 21-Apr-14 17:12:12

A friend recommended amber, will get some.
Active ingredient is chamomila 6c

meddie Mon 21-Apr-14 17:16:55

There is no active ingredient. Its that diluted that thats its not there.

meddie Mon 21-Apr-14 17:22:04

6c dilution is 1 part of chamomila per 1,000,000 parts of water. you would be lucky to come across any chamomila at all. its just water dripped on sugar granules.

CorusKate Mon 21-Apr-14 17:25:41

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Cauliflowerear Mon 21-Apr-14 17:30:33

Amber necklaces are even more woo than homeopathy IMO.

5feralloinfruits Mon 21-Apr-14 17:32:04

Im not a huge advocate of homeopathy as ive never used it on myself,but i dont understand how people get so angry about it,if hey havent ever tried it,science is becoming the new religion, "oooh,how dare anyone challenge what our precious mainstream science says" it annoys me when people are so small minded.

NeedsAsockamnesty Mon 21-Apr-14 17:32:59

mistletoe

Your going to buy amber to help with teething because you have just realised the teething granules are shite?

Have a think about it for awhile.

Why don't you use a cold teething ring

bruffin Mon 21-Apr-14 17:35:54

Amber necklacea look tackyl and there is no mechanism for them to work, unless your happy top heat them to 200 degrees

NeedsAsockamnesty Mon 21-Apr-14 17:35:59

Im not a huge advocate of homeopathy as ive never used it on myself,but i dont understand how people get so angry about it,if hey havent ever tried it,science is becoming the new religion, "oooh,how dare anyone challenge what our precious mainstream science says" it annoys me when people are so small minded

It annoys people because it is a multi billion pound industry that plays on desperation and stupidity,it does not work, it has never worked,it will never work.

PolkadotsAndMoonbeams Mon 21-Apr-14 17:37:26

That's generally because people spend an awful lot of lab hours coming up with drugs and medicines and new formulae that are as effective as possible, and to be told "Oh hundreds of dilutions of chamomila in water is exactly the same" is just a teensy-weensy bit galling...

Wabbitty Mon 21-Apr-14 17:38:22

If water has a "memory" then there is no need to take expensive homeopathic crap - normal tap water will contain the essence of everything.

5feralloinfruits Mon 21-Apr-14 17:39:54

but i personally know people who use it and it has worked,you have been told it doesnt work and its not possible to work by the mainstream pharmaceutical industry,which also makes billions and billions,and you believe it,without having tried it.

Amber necklaces do not look tacky,i cant think of anything less tacky,we obviously have different ideas of what tacky means.

meddie Mon 21-Apr-14 17:40:06

people get angry about it, because it shows a lack of even very basic science.
if you make a drink of orange squash , it doesnt become more orangey the more water you put in it thats basic science.
homeopaths claim that serial dilutions of their ingredient becomes more potent the more you dilute it. so
1ml drop in a 100mls.
then take 1ml of that and dilute it a 100 times
then 1ml of that and dilute that a hundred times,
then another ml of that and dilute that a hundred times,
then 1 ml of that and dilute that a hundred times is a 6c dilution.

There is no way on gods earth that a drop of that final solution is stronger than the original solution.

homeopaths now say that yes we know the substance is no longer there, but the water 'remembers it being there'. if thats the case why doesnt it remember the urine/poo/heavy metals and poisons the water has also been in contact with during its existence?

Can you not see how ridiculous that is? If that was the case just by drinking tap water we would be in contact with thousands of homeopathic remedies and therefore no one would suffer disease. but that doesnt happen...

its frustrating to hear people say, but science doesnt know everything. yes maybe it doesnt, but we've known for along time that diluting stuff doesnt make it stronger

Ponysocks Mon 21-Apr-14 17:40:20

Sassysally - when have the laws of science been turned on their head?

CorusKate Mon 21-Apr-14 17:40:32

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SatNavMan Mon 21-Apr-14 17:41:51

CorusKate you win the internet for that comment. The special type of shaking is so important for activating the woo molecules. I recommend Tim Minchin's poem/song Storm for more fun, including the wonderful summation of homeopathy:

Take science and bin it
Water has memory and while it's memory of a long lost drop of onion juice seems infinite
It somehow forgets all the poo it's had in it

My advice- if your baby needs something to help it, provide something with a chance of doing so. At the risk of sounding a tiny bit sceptical, homeopathy is a crock of gonadgravy.

claraschu Mon 21-Apr-14 17:42:14

Placebos work on pets (readBad Science by Ben Goldacre), so they probably work on babies.

NeedsAsockamnesty Mon 21-Apr-14 17:44:50

but i personally know people who use it and it has worked,you have been told it doesnt work and its not possible to work by the mainstream pharmaceutical industry,which also makes billions and billions,and you believe it,without having tried it

No you don't know anybody that has experienced it working,because it does not.

If you really believe it does there is a million pound prize in it why don't you toodle along and claim it

SunshineBossaNova Mon 21-Apr-14 17:55:04
extrasleepneeded Mon 21-Apr-14 18:03:21

I've used homeopathic teething powders with my younger two and found then great screaming baby to silence in seconds. Not really sure how they worked but all I care about is that they do

meddie Mon 21-Apr-14 18:07:01

becuase they are just powdered sugar extrasleepneeded and as mentioned before and researched extensively, babies respond strongly to sweet tastes, so strongly in fact that it can over ride pain messages.

you would get the same effect rubbing icing sugar on their gums or dipping their dummy in honey.

mercibucket Mon 21-Apr-14 18:07:01

placebo and nocebo are amazing. why describe them as appalling?

and my 6 year old definitely noticed her molars coming in!

mercibucket Mon 21-Apr-14 18:08:50

well i suppose nocebo could be described as appalling but the human mind is an amazing thing

XiCi Mon 21-Apr-14 18:10:05

Another one who just does not understand why people get so frothy about homeopathy. If you think it's a pile of shite then don't use it, I don't see why anyone else using it should bother you.

My dd suffered terribly with teething. The teething granules literally took minutes to change her from a screaming banshee to a calm little baby. I don't care what anyone else's views may be, they worked for her, and better that than pumping her full of Calpol.

UncleT Mon 21-Apr-14 18:13:08

Brainwashed by pharmaceutical companies?? No, just in possession of a basic scientific education, and a mound of research proving that there's no possible effect beyond placebo. That's not being brain-washed or small-minded, it's actually called not being a complete dumbass.

By the way, I have a shiny pebble in my house and I haven't had a single tiger attack. Would anyone like to buy my magic anti-tiger protection stone?

UncleT Mon 21-Apr-14 18:15:14

There is no placebo effect in teething babies. They are, quite simply, not developed enough for that complex psycho-neurological process.

extrasleepneeded Mon 21-Apr-14 18:18:18

I to am not really bothered how the teething powders worked I just know they did we called them magic as they worked so quick and am sure its not just sugar as I tasted them and they weren't sweet at all

GreatSoprendo Mon 21-Apr-14 18:24:40

Teething powders are amazing! I'm certain however that there is nothing medical or pain relieving about them - it's just the distracting effect of the powders fizzing like a very mild popping candy that distracts them for long enough to take their mind off their teeth.

hazeyjane Mon 21-Apr-14 18:24:56

personally I don't really believe teething causes pain how do you work that out! I remember dd1 headbutting the floor in agony when her molars were coming through!

Finding out that sugar had a memory of water being dropped on it that had a memory of substances diluted in it, but only those that were shaken in the water in a special way, would require not just turning science on its head, but going round science's back and fucking it up the arse.

I may have that printed on a tshirt

hazeyjane Mon 21-Apr-14 18:28:01

I did try the powders in desperation with dd1 - they not only had zero effect, but left her with a powder moustache that looked like I had been hothousing her in the fine art of snorting class a drugs.

PolkadotsAndMoonbeams Mon 21-Apr-14 18:31:24

For the gels though, I think the pressure on the gums helps - that's why chewing a teething ring helps. Rubbing firmly along the gums can help too, the gel probably just makes it a bit slippier!

FastWindow Mon 21-Apr-14 18:36:30

coruskate informative AND hilaire.

<tips hat>

PolkadotsAndMoonbeams Mon 21-Apr-14 18:47:25

Actually, I have seen a paper recently which argued you could distinguish between different homoeopathic dilutions and pure water/ethanol by the long range structure of the water/ethanol molecules.

But quite how that would actually have a biochemical effect I don't know.

MistletoeBUTNOwine Mon 21-Apr-14 19:05:15

Well DS likes the powder- stopped screaming and ear pulling. Will try icing sugar tomorrow in the cause of science and see if it has same effect shock
Re. the amber, a friend has recommended it before, her DS has necklaces and both ankles covered! All do different things apparently, need to look into it more.
Btw calpol has had negligible effect.

Chunderella Mon 21-Apr-14 19:13:29

Teething powders work because they have sugar in them and it's a painkiller for small babies. Nothing to do with homeopathy. Also, you'd have to be a complete fucking bellend to think that teething doesn't actually cause pain, and I say this as someone who didn't notice their wisdom teeth come through.

CustardOmlet Mon 21-Apr-14 19:28:34

Homeopaths don't have a brain, simply skull water with the memory of a brain.

Thank you Infinite Monkey Cage grin

Waltonswatcher1 Mon 21-Apr-14 20:02:30

Really? Another homeopathy rant ?
Teething too . Um ...
Well I don't believe teething pain exists - I do believe teething is used to avoid admitting a child is off colour and maybe harbouring something contagious . Far easier to socialise when you write off the temp as a teething issue .

hazeyjane Mon 21-Apr-14 20:03:38

Huh?

Waltonswatcher1 Mon 21-Apr-14 20:07:12

'Huh?'
What sorry ?!

hazeyjane Mon 21-Apr-14 20:12:44

I am confused by the idea that teething is a conspiracy by conniving parents trying to infiltrate the public with germ ridden children, but then I thought maybe you were joking, so I ended up just typing 'huh?'

cardibach Mon 21-Apr-14 20:19:25

Well, my wisdom teeth definitely hurt when they came through (perfectly straightforward, no issues) and I was old enough to know. How anyone can think that bone cutting through flesh could be pain free is totally baffling. Could you explain, Walton'swatcher, why this particular 'germ' only strikes in the few days before a tooth comes through?

Waltonswatcher1 Mon 21-Apr-14 20:24:02

No I really believe it !
Happy to be laughed at and shown out of the room .
So many times I have thought virus - temp rash irritability . And the mum has said teething .

cardibach Mon 21-Apr-14 20:25:31

Walton's - and then a new tooth hmm
And this virus only strikes in the days before a new tooth hmm hmm

Waltonswatcher1 Mon 21-Apr-14 20:25:52

The teeth don't just pop through though do they ?
I am not a dentist so can't back that up !

cardibach Mon 21-Apr-14 20:28:29

Umm - yes! There is no tooth, there is a sore and swollen gum with associated whingeing and moaning, pink cheeks, maybe a bit of a temp (often not) and then - boom- new tooth. What on earth do you think is happening? ANd have you got any wisdom teeth?

hazeyjane Mon 21-Apr-14 20:28:40

Waltons, none of my 3 dcs ever had a temperature when they were teething, just red cheeks, screaming, swollen gums, dd1 hd horrendous nappies, dd2 and ds didn't, and miraculously the screaming, grumpiness and lack of sleep would stop when new sharp little teeth poked through. I am also a stickler about keeping my kids away from people when they are ill, so would never use teeth as an excuse.

Waltonswatcher1 Mon 21-Apr-14 20:29:49

I don't believe in teething pain and my 3 have never suffered in anyway from any teething symptoms . That's a great placebo effect .
I wonder how many other things only exist because we name them ?
I shall close the door on my way out !

Waltonswatcher1 Mon 21-Apr-14 20:32:18

Yes I had my wisdom teeth taken out . The pain was from them growing in the wrong place and squashing the other teeth - totally different than teeth coming up .

Waltonswatcher1 Mon 21-Apr-14 20:35:16

Hazeyjane - you are in the minority sadly . Even beloved friends hate to cancel engagements due to toddler illness .
Its the same with school and the 48 hr puke issue, but that's a well covered mn topic !

1stMrsF Mon 21-Apr-14 20:36:27

The teething powder recommended to me when mine were small contained contained xylitol, a sugar substitute that has a cooling effect when tasted so I concluded that they worked not because of the homeopathic properties (non-properties IMO) but because they felt cool on their gums, which was soothing.

passmethewineplease Mon 21-Apr-14 20:36:40

YANBU, anyone who doesn't think teething hurts a baby is stupid.

passmethewineplease Mon 21-Apr-14 20:38:06

Walton how do you know hazeyjane is the minority?

Can you speak for everyone? hmm

Oddthomas Mon 21-Apr-14 20:43:31

My wisdom teeth grew in 'perfectly' (according to my dentist) - full set, nice and straight, plenty of space for them - it still fucking hurt! It's such a difficult feeling to describe a there is nothing to compare it to. It was like a constant, stinging, on-edge, angsty sort of pain inside my gums (which, FYI, were red, hard and swollen) and even though I'm an adult and not a baby I still had the urge to put things in my mouth and gnaw on them to try and get some relief.

My babies get Calpol and/or Nurofen when they're teething because when I was teething my wisdom teeth if someone had offered me magic memory water instead of actual painkillers I'd have told them to fuck right the fuck off.

Oddthomas Mon 21-Apr-14 20:45:55

My two oldest also suffered red cheeks, dodgy nappies, restless sleep, whinging, and loss of appetite when teething - funnily enough I had the same symptoms when teething (not the nappies but the dodgy tum).

cardibach Mon 21-Apr-14 20:46:05

Your DC didn't have teething pain, or you refused to recognise it and let them suffer? Or treated a 'virus' (with what? CAlpol? Because that would work...)? People like you worry me.
Minority? I don't think so. I think teething pain is pretty well accepted by the overwhelming majority, and with logical reason. ANy chance of explaining how you think bone can cut through flesh without pain? I've already told you my (straightforward) wisdom teeth (well tooth tbh, I only have one) did hurt. I didn't have a virus hmm

ToysRLuv Mon 21-Apr-14 20:46:57

Amber necklaces can be a strangulation and choking hazard. Better stick with funny water and sugar if in need/want of placebos or distractions for teething pain. Or Calpol.

cardibach Mon 21-Apr-14 20:47:25

SOrry drifted off after the minority bit of that! Most people accept teething pain and allow their children out with it but keep them away from others when they are ill, in my experience.

Oddthomas Mon 21-Apr-14 20:48:05

I was just going to say that I don't use amber teething necklaces as a friend of a friend lost her baby when he choked on the beads.

Teething doesn't hurt? That's a joke, right?

cardibach Mon 21-Apr-14 20:59:38

Sadly, backward, I think it is in all seriousness... Some people really worry me.

Rommell Mon 21-Apr-14 21:03:17

If teething hurts, how come older children don't need calpol when their adult teeth come through?

Wisdom teeth can be felt because of the pressure from other existing teeth - they were designed to come through when those other existing teeth had been lost.

But I don't think there is an conclusive evidence that babies feel pain when teething, given that older children certainly don't.

Coldlightofday Mon 21-Apr-14 21:09:34

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Really? Razor sharp teeth cutting through flesh doesn't hurt. If you say so Rommell

FWIW my wisdom teeth coming in required real drugs, not homeopathic woo. It was the gum that was painful where it was cutting. Fuck all to do with the other teeth.

Oddthomas Mon 21-Apr-14 21:11:12

Adult teeth come through gums that have already been channeled out (for want of a better term) by the baby teeth, whereas the baby teeth are carving up solid gums. Plus the pained crying generally implies that yes, it does hurt.

Oddthomas Mon 21-Apr-14 21:12:53

Same with mine backward, it was the swollen, hard gums that were hurting actually inside the gum not the other teeth.

Rommell Mon 21-Apr-14 21:14:47

There is a lot of shit talked about teething. I have even heard people say that their baby 'teethed' for three months before his first tooth came through. Err, no.

The red cheeks are due to drooling, which is due to increased saliva, which also causes the dodgy nappies.

If you can find me a medical study that says teething exists, I might change my mind. But probably not.

cardibach Mon 21-Apr-14 21:14:52

Your older children didn't feel pain when their teeth came through? Wow.

cardibach Mon 21-Apr-14 21:16:03

Jeez, Rommell. Have you no empathy? Your attitude is mindblowing.

cardibach Mon 21-Apr-14 21:16:48

ANd I haven't heard anyone talk about teething lasting more than a couple of days before the first tooth appeared, fwiw.

The drooling/extra saliva is a symptom of, er, TEETHING. hmm

Rommell Mon 21-Apr-14 21:18:28

Sorry, that should say 'painful teething exists' or something similar.

Rommell Mon 21-Apr-14 21:19:30

I have never heard of an older child experiencing pain when their adult teeth come in, no, cardibach.

bruffin Mon 21-Apr-14 21:19:39

My wisdoms really hurt, they came through perfectly normally no impaction as i had 4 teeth removed in my teens due to overcrowding.
My dd is 16 would cut 4 teeth at a time withoutbus noticing. She had an impacted adult too with no pain. It was removed which included cutting out bone and she came round from ga smiling, and was eating fish and chips a few hours later. I had stocked up on soft foods but she didnt need them. Ds on the other hand suffered with his teeth.

Coldlightofday Mon 21-Apr-14 21:23:27

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

mercibucket Mon 21-Apr-14 21:23:49

i remember my wisdom teeth hurting

and dd came to me just last week moaning on about her gums hurting. took me ages to twig she must have molars coming. so that hurt too. to be fair, she wasnt screaming in agony, neither was i, but then babies are like that with pain in general

cardibach Mon 21-Apr-14 21:24:08

I've told you that as an adult my wisdom tooth (plenty of space, perfectly straight, all through in about days) coming through hurt. Why would you doubt me? And why would you think this would be different for babies/children, Rommell?

cardibach Mon 21-Apr-14 21:24:28

That should say in about 3 days.

Rommell Mon 21-Apr-14 21:26:03

^ANd I haven't heard anyone talk about teething lasting more than a couple of days before the first tooth appeared, fwiw.^

We appear to have met different people. Which is perhaps not so odd, given that we have different lives. I have heard loads of people blame the fact that their baby isn't sleeping through on 'teething', when in fact the reality is that lots of young babies just don't sleep through, and there probably is some kind of reason for it, but I would wager it is rarely if ever due to 'teething.

I don't see what this has to do with empathy or lack of it.

Rommell Mon 21-Apr-14 21:27:53

Coldlightofday, presumably your baby was feeling pain from something, given that the calpol worked. Might not have been teething though. Could have been a sore tummy, a bit of earache from getting water into it in the bath or a million and one other things.

mercibucket Mon 21-Apr-14 21:28:50

there are loads of articles on google scholar about teething!

Coldlightofday Mon 21-Apr-14 21:29:16

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Rommell Mon 21-Apr-14 21:30:46

You probably noticed when it did, Coldlightofday, and not when it didn't.

Wtf is google scholar? Is it the same as The Lancet?

ouryve Mon 21-Apr-14 21:31:22

It's probably less effective than a frozen wet sock - that was DS1's teething soother of choice. A lot cheaper, too, since we had a plentiful supply of outgrown socks.

Coldlightofday Mon 21-Apr-14 21:33:00

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

mercibucket Mon 21-Apr-14 21:35:07

google scholar is just a type of google but it only searches university level material eg journals and academic literature

there is a very funny letter by someone arguing much the same as you

'teething and corneal ulcers' might bring it up.

he compares it (surely it must be a he) to the big fuss made by women about childbirth pain, which is just like going for a big poo (i paraphrase). typical hysterical women moaning on about minor pain grin

Oddthomas Mon 21-Apr-14 21:36:17

DD is 2.7yo and about a month ago was having a right grizzle and whinge. Every time someone so much as looked at her funny she cried her eyes out, that horrid high pitched whiny cry they do when they're not right. She had a bright pink left cheek, she was warm to the touch, wouldn't eat. I asked her "tell mummy what's wrong" and she told me "hurts". So I asked "hurts where?". She put her fingers in her mouth then put them on the side of her jaw, in her mouth, then on her jaw "hurts here mummy". So I stuck a finger in her mouth, had a feel, and sure enough her bottom left gum was swollen and hard. Two days later (during which her symptoms continued, I gave her Calpol and she whined "hurts" whenever it wore off) and the points of her back tooth were through. Symptoms stopped, the whines of "hurts" stopped, and she was her usual happy self.

Shockers Mon 21-Apr-14 21:37:40

Teething hurts babies.

I say this as a foster mum of lots of babies ( plus one of my own).
The crying in pain, the red cheeks, the nappy rash... it all happened at the same time as they were teething. There were different degrees of those symptoms, depending on the child, but the symptoms were very consistent.

Rommell Mon 21-Apr-14 21:38:41

I mean, that if you're thinking there's a correlation between teeth appearing/pain/calpol, then you will remember the times when that correlation seemed to be at play.

mercibucket Mon 21-Apr-14 21:40:01

up until the 19th century it was believed teething could cause death
shock
i am learning lots tonight!

Oddthomas Mon 21-Apr-14 21:40:42

the big fuss made by women about childbirth pain, which is just like going for a big poo

grin grin grin

DH once asked me what childbirth feels like. I invited him to shove a glass-studded watermelon up his arse and then spend several hours slowly pushing it back out. I even offered brownie points if he could do it without tearing himself a new one.

But teething pain is a myth Oddthomas isn't it? hmm

perfectstorm Mon 21-Apr-14 21:44:15

Tim Minchin on this subject - "Storm".

Oddthomas Mon 21-Apr-14 21:45:19

A total myth backward which is why, when DD was crying and whining "hurts" while showing me her gums and jaw, I gave her a sharp shake and told her to man the fuck up "don't you know it's all in your head?!" I told her. She agreed she was making the whole thing up and was just swinging the lead so that I'd give her some of that oh-so-addictive Calpol, she loves it so, I believe it's street name is Pink Pony. Then we laughed and laughed and no more was said about fictional teething pain.

True story.

perfectstorm Mon 21-Apr-14 21:46:13

I hope that man is condemned to give birth to eternity in the afterlife. (I gave birth a couple of months ago. Memories are fresh.)

ouryve Mon 21-Apr-14 21:47:16

I remember canines, pre-molars and molars all hurting as they broke through. DS1 took to chewing everything in sight when he was teething, hence the frozen sock experiment. DS2 has had a gap where his front upper incisors were for the past 2 months and an adult tooth has finally broken through, today, after a week of rubbing it and whinging about it. DS1 complains similarly about teeth breaking through in a healed over gap.

I think teething might hurt, even if it's for a short while. No conspiracy involved.

Rommell Mon 21-Apr-14 21:48:32

Actually, a corneal ulcer is a very painful thing.

Cutting a tooth? Meh. Jury's out.

Haha!

cardibach Mon 21-Apr-14 21:53:41

What jury, Rommell? WHy is your belief more compelling than that of, oh, almost everyone else who is sane

cardibach Mon 21-Apr-14 21:54:43

COrneal ulcers, ROmmell? I believe the pain is related to an unrelated virus you have contracted. True.

sandberry Mon 21-Apr-14 21:55:12

People regularly use placebos for babies, look at the sales of infacol, it works as well as water, entirely placebo effect

People give babies drugs like Omeprazole for reflux which we know are ineffective. At least a bit of alcohol and water with some sweetener is probably pretty harmless.

Oddthomas Mon 21-Apr-14 21:56:34

Yes, everyone knows the cure for corneal pain is water but special molecule water. The pain is entirely in your mind. Look at people who blink. They don't experience pain therefore I conclude that corneal ulcers are no more painful than blinking.

mercibucket Mon 21-Apr-14 21:56:38

extensive googling tells me you are all right (apart from that man! he didnt actually seem to write about corneal ulcers, but it was 1905 grin )

i cant open most of the links on my phone but it seems in almost all cases, fever/diarrhoea is not due to teething, but an illness (rommell's point) but children do show signs of gum pain (everyone elses point)

Omeprazole is ineffective? DH might argue with you on that, considering if he forgets to take his in the morning, he's doubled over in pain by about lunchtime.

Shockers Mon 21-Apr-14 21:57:25

Oh... I didn't use Calpol either, so that theory doesn't work wink.

I used cold cucumber and a homeopathic nappy rash cream! ( which incidentally cleared up bums wonderfully)

Rommell Mon 21-Apr-14 21:58:49

Did you think that up all by yourself, cardibach? I wish I could be more like you, what with all your empathy and all that.

hazeyjane Mon 21-Apr-14 22:02:18

Can you link to something that says about omeprazole being ineffective, please?

sandberry Mon 21-Apr-14 22:03:10

Omeprazole is ineffective for babies but not for adults apparently

Oh, sorry I didn't realise you meant only in babies. Though I have never heard of it being ineffective for babies either!

hazeyjane Mon 21-Apr-14 22:06:28

Babies up until what age? I am curious because we have tried omeprazole/lansoprazole in several forms as it is recommended as the most effective med for ds, but he is unable to take it, so we use ranitidine and domperidon instead. If there is something that says that it is ineffective I'd print it off to show them.

NeedsAsockamnesty Mon 21-Apr-14 22:06:35

I dropped a saucepan on my foot earlier fucking hell it hurt,

It was a le creuset (orange none of that aqua rubbish in my house)

sandberry Mon 21-Apr-14 22:07:25

pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/127/5/925, although not that much research so who knows what may happen in the future.

I stand by my point on Infacol though I can't understand how they can sell it. I spend so much time nodding and smiling when people tell me how well it works, they might as well have bought some homeopathic drops though perhaps the Infacol users are the type to buy homeopathic teething gel.

MandatoryMongoose Mon 21-Apr-14 22:07:31

Sorry, I can't believe this has turned into a debate on if teething pain is real.

How have you all skipped over the much more important question of how much for the magic anti-tiger stone?

There's no way teething hurts as much as tiger attack surely!

I bought Infacol out of desperation. What a fucking waste of money that was. See also gripe water and colief.

cardibach Mon 21-Apr-14 22:14:02

Think up all what Rommell? Don't understand your question. I just changed the argument you gave about teething to another painful condition. Except I haven't experienced corneal ulcers so it makes marginally more sense I wouldn't believe they hurt than teething pain which I have. Or were you talking about something else. Incidentally I don't think it takes much empathy to imagine sharp bone cutting through flesh to cause pain...

cardibach Mon 21-Apr-14 22:14:58

By the way, I'm going to bed now so if I don't reply to your next intellectually incisive comment it isn't because you have converted me to your bonkers theory, just that I'm asleep. If you believe in that.

Rommell Mon 21-Apr-14 22:19:02

I was referring to this, cardibach:

^COrneal ulcers, ROmmell? I believe the pain is related to an unrelated virus you have contracted. True.^

whereby you and OddThomas displayed your amazing and capacious empathy to make cheap cracks about a time when I was laid in bed in agony in a darkened room with a scarf tied around my head listening to radio 4, whimpering and terrified that I would lose the sight of one eye. Had I known that my pain and terror would allow you to make jokes at my expense some years later in order to prove a point about teething and also to demonstrate how full of the milk of human kindness you are, I would have said then, as I can cheerfully say now, that it was all worth it.

You're something special. No, really you are.

SpanielFace Mon 21-Apr-14 22:22:24

You are wrong because placebo is proven to be effective in reducing symptoms even among animals.

I'm a vet. I've never seen evidence of this. The placebo effect is effective in altering a human owner / observer's perception of pain. Assessing pain levels in animals is notoriously difficult as it depends so much on the observer. IMO using homeopathic remedies on a treatable, painful condition in animals is completely unethical. I have no objection to owners who want to use it alongside conventional treatment, but don't believe it does anything except make the owner feel better.

OP I totally agree with you. Poor babies.

Double standards, Rommell don't you think? People on here have told you teething hurt them personally, but you wave it off. Yet when someone dares suggest (in jest, to show how ridiculous you are to think teething is a myth) that they 'believe' corneal ulcers are not painful it's somehow not funny anymore. Ah.

Oddthomas Mon 21-Apr-14 22:27:12

Rommell, my 2yo was in pain and was scared and bewildered as she doesn't know what teething is, all she knew was that it hurt. Did you not dismiss her pain by clinging to your, much disputed, belief that teething pain doesn't exist? Does that not belittle her pain? Where was your empathy when discussing infants/toddlers in obvious pain?

If you want empathy, display empathy.

Rommell Mon 21-Apr-14 22:27:59

Whatever. I was just astounded by the empathy. I'd been told it existed, and there it suddenly is.

Oddthomas Mon 21-Apr-14 22:29:36

Empathy isn't a real thing. It's all in your head wink

Rommell Mon 21-Apr-14 22:31:19

Evidently.

I don't remember making jokes about your daughter.

FreudiansSlipper Mon 21-Apr-14 22:36:26

I thought the pain and temperature was cause by slight infection that is often bought on by teething, so not teething itself I thought everyone knew that surprised if people do not considering the parenting experts on here

anyway what does it matter if some people use homeopathic does everything have to be proved by science for it to work

TheScience Mon 21-Apr-14 22:38:27

I'm sure I heard recently that the concept of "teething" as a problem for babies doesn't exist in all cultures - Japan maybe?

Anyway, DS1 had no teething pain as far as I can tell - no amber or sugar powder, he was a generally placid and happy baby. If I'd believed in magic then I'd have probably been telling everyone how effective it is grin

I thought the pain and temperature was cause by slight infection that is often bought on by teething, so not teething itself

So pain brought on by teething, yes?

custardcream1000 Mon 21-Apr-14 22:42:50

I couldn't agree more Mandatory.

Everyone's talking about teething, while I am hiding under my black and orange stripped blanket (I thought it a good idea to use camouflage as a temporary measure), quivering in fear, and wondering when my anti-tiger stones will arrive!

FreudiansSlipper Mon 21-Apr-14 22:45:44

but the pain is not teething, and the diarrhoea is not from the teething itself

that is why not all babies get it and some get it worse than others

really you did not know this hmm

custardcream1000 Mon 21-Apr-14 22:45:56

Sorry! striped - not stripped!

NeedsAsockamnesty Mon 21-Apr-14 22:47:44

I thought the pain and temperature was cause by slight infection that is often bought on by teething, so not teething itself

No,it was a saucepan,I'm sure of it. It had a wooden handle and everything

piscivorous Mon 21-Apr-14 22:48:58

Here's a revolutionary idea, allow parents to make a decision for themselves as to what works for their child and let them get on with it. If they use something and it doesn't work they will change tack

I don't understand the dogmatic mindset of anyone insisting that others should comply with their point of view. I work in the NHS and have treated my children with conventional medicines, one of my closest friends is a homeopath and has treated hers with homeopathy. Most of the time both sets of children got better in similar times but on occasion, if they didn't, I have recommended conventional stuff to her which she has used and she has recommended homeopathic stuff to me which I have used. It's no big deal.

Oh I know, and I know that the runny bottom/toxic shit is caused by swallowing the excess saliva etc. I totally get that. However, at the end of the day, it is still caused by teething - even if it is an infection caused by teething producing the excess saliva, or whatever, it is still caused by the teething originally, no?

TheScience Mon 21-Apr-14 22:49:37

I'd never heard of an infection caused by teething Freudian, do you have a link to that?

I thought runny poo was just the result of dribbly babies swallowing more saliva. Hadn't heard teething caused a temperature tbh.

FreudiansSlipper Mon 21-Apr-14 22:55:42

nhs, wiki, patient.co.uk

Minifingers Mon 21-Apr-14 23:04:45

YABU to be cross about it.

I don't get angry about homeopathy, or god or any of the imaginary things which bring people comfort.

If it proves to be feckin useless people won't repeat the experience (except in the case of religion - the definition of 'faith' is believing in something that you know isn't real)

FreudiansSlipper Mon 21-Apr-14 23:09:15

I can not understand the anger either

I know people who swear by it, seems to work for them. I used it for hayfever like symptom's I got in la from the terrible smog worked better than what was given to me at the pharmacy

Minifingers Mon 21-Apr-14 23:11:21

Merci - children did used to die from teething, because they had infected gums caused by scurvy. Fruit and veg was considered inappropriate food for babies because it caused 'the flux' (squits). Hence some children whose diets were poor had terrible problems with their gums when teething, and with some it was enough to kill them.

PolkadotsAndMoonbeams Mon 21-Apr-14 23:14:17

This study shows a temperature rise for some babies, although they had no explanation for it.

This one is interesting too, and more recent.

It finds statistically significant differences in temperature on the day of eruption, and some other symptoms too.

TheScience, it also mentions "Some of these signs and symptoms may be explained by the increase in inflammatory cytokine levels in the gingival crevicular fluid surrounding the teeth".

FreudiansSlipper Mon 21-Apr-14 23:16:47

was that not in times when many children died and how many would have had fresh fruit and vegetables in their diet so it was blamed on teething. but just general ill health and poor living conditions more likely to blame. it is surprising how many did survive

does everything have to be proved by science for it to work

No, but homoeopathy has been proven not to work. which is another matter entirely. It's as much a fake as a Nigerian email.

and the worst thing about it is that people don't just use it for themselves, but for kids who don't get a choice. Which is what this thread was originally about.

FreudiansSlipper Mon 21-Apr-14 23:24:04

I thought Nelsons powders were homeopathic remedy

have seen them mentioned many times on here, worked for ds and other I know

Minifingers Mon 21-Apr-14 23:25:09

Back - homeopathy is a very useful placebo for many people. What's wrong with a good placebo, if it brings relief and has no side effects? People who use homeopathy aren't generally so stupid that they will use it for degenerative, serious conditions in preference to more effective conventional treatments.

SunshineBossaNova Mon 21-Apr-14 23:26:30

People who use homeopathy aren't generally so stupid that they will use it for degenerative, serious conditions in preference to more effective conventional treatments.

I beg to differ.

whatstheharm.net/homeopathy.html

fisherpricephone Mon 21-Apr-14 23:40:21

Even if every child that's being a pain isn't teething I still think it's a useful explanation that maybe gives the parent a bit more patience than if there wasn't an 'explanation' for their awkwardness. 2 of my 3 were very difficult to tell if they were teething or not, they were more variable in their moods generally. My middle child was the calmest easiest baby in the world who slept and smiled and was a delight to have around, except for the week before a tooth would appear when she would become clingy, miserable, and desperate to BF all night (and her latch was terrible in that week). Soon as the tooth (or more usually teeth, she always had sets of teeth come through together) appeared her mood would transform, she would STTN again and her latch would improve. No temperature or drooling particularly, just a personality change for a week. My 6 year old is now getting teeth and is complaining a lot about how sore her mouth is.

My most favourite thing ever about amber teething necklaces is that you 'recharge' them in moonlight. I would love an explanation as to how that works at a chemical level.

MaidOfStars Tue 22-Apr-14 08:42:21

My most favourite thing ever about amber teething necklaces is that you 'recharge' them in moonlight. I would love an explanation as to how that works at a chemical level

I would love to know what 'moonlight' is.....

Minifingers yes, the placebo effect can make it seem as though homoeopathy is working. This effect has been mentioned so many times now that people may have the idea that placebo only happens with homoeopathy. That it counts as an exclusive advantage for homoeopathy.

The placebo effect applies to any treatment, including ones that are not fake. So taking an aspirin for a headache actually has an effect, but also benefits from the placebo effect.

Made up cures like homoeopathy or rubbing the affected part with a copy of the Radio Times are equally effective.

If someone tries to sell you a special, very expensive, copy of the Radio Times (perhaps recharged by moonlight, I love that one too) then they are cheating you, and the fact that the placebo effect might make you feel a little better doesn't excuse them.

And sadly people do use homoeopathy for serious conditions and not simply because they are stupid. The blame there goes partly to ordinary people who talk about it as though it works and recommend it to friends or on internet forums.

This is why it it vitally important to take every opportunity to reveal that it is a con.

MaidOfStars Tue 22-Apr-14 12:23:07

And sadly people do use homoeopathy for serious conditions and not simply because they are stupid. The blame there goes partly to ordinary people who talk about it as though it works and recommend it to friends or on internet forums

Have you seen Sam Harris' argument that religious extremists are propped up by the religious moderates who will not (and indeed, cannot) speak out against the fundamentalist beliefs? Strikes a chord here, methinks.

What harm? I will repeat an old post of mine:
Because the world is just so full of bullshit, it infuriates me. It's everywhere, speaking to dead people and medicating yourself with sugar and planning your day around what Saturn is doing. Just so much nonsense, pervading society and doing very real damage, perhaps not at the level of you chatting with your mates about it, but on a global scale. Every time someone utters "it's not doing any harm", they unwittingly feed into the system that sees virgins raped to cure men of HIV, that sees children die because parents don't seek formal medical treatment, that sees the vulnerable counting their few remaining pennies because they've been conned by someone so disgustingly amoral to take their cash in return for fake messages form their dead family.

javotte Tue 22-Apr-14 12:29:33

YANBU.
So many French people believe in it, it is surreal.

FreudiansSlipper Tue 22-Apr-14 12:33:38

but that us what you feel is bullshit

do you not think we are conned every day of our lives into believing what is society's norm a norm that is forever changing

you can not lump what you perceive as bullshit with so many wrongs in the world

have people not been damaged by conventional medicine that has progressed, do we in this country not benefit from others suffering in the world, we are all part of it

SunshineBossaNova Tue 22-Apr-14 12:36:14

Many more people have been saved by conventional medicine than damaged, Freudian.

The reason homeopathy doesn't directly harm people is because it has no active ingredients at all. It is merely sugar pills.

MaidOfStars Tue 22-Apr-14 12:36:50

but that us what you feel is bullshit

That homeopathy is bullshit isn't really my own subjective opinion.

SunshineBossaNova Tue 22-Apr-14 12:42:05

That homeopathy is bullshit isn't really my own subjective opinion.

This can't be repeated enough.

FreudiansSlipper Tue 22-Apr-14 12:47:34

I am not at all suggesting that people should ignore conventional medicine or that it does more harm

What I am saying is that people have different beliefs, at times all can cause harm but the power of believing is very powerful

I work in a professional that is based on a theory, a theory when first put forward was dismissed now seen quite differently but there is still no actual proof or a way to measure it (the unconscious) still some will say it is a load of rubbish can be measured and others will disagree and say well here are our facts of the people who have been through the therapeutic process

FreudiansSlipper Tue 22-Apr-14 12:48:34

can't be measured ....

sashh Tue 22-Apr-14 13:46:20

oooh,how dare anyone challenge what our precious mainstream science says

Utter bollox.

Science is constantly being challenged and retested.

For centuries willow bark was known to help with pain, we still know it works for pain, now we manufacture it, understand its chemical composition and know that it also helps to reduce fever and act as an anticoagulant.

am sure its not just sugar as I tasted them and they weren't sweet at all

Have you had baked beans? Or tomato ketchup? Or carrots? All contain sugar but don't taste sweet.

SunshineBossaNova Tue 22-Apr-14 14:08:28

As I've heard said, you're entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts.

Minifingers Tue 22-Apr-14 16:12:19

I repeat, what is wrong with a good placebo?

One with no side effects?

Minifingers Tue 22-Apr-14 16:16:30

Can I also ask those people who are rampaging around on this thread bellowing about homeopathy being utter shite, would you be as disrespectful about prayer? Because there have been large clinical trials of the efficacy of prayer to improve outcomes for the sick, and these have found that not only is prayer ineffectual but that it doesn't even appear to have a placebo effect.

FreudiansSlipper bringing up the unconscious and saying it can't be proved and trying to equate that with homoeopathy won't work. We know what homoeopathy is and we have proved that it doesn't work. There is no mystery there and it's not a matter of opinion.

MaidOfStars Yes, it's been my position for a while now that without the 'nice' believers, the seriously dangerous ones wouldn't be a significant problem. They'd just be criminals and/or in need of treatment.

would you be as disrespectful about prayer?

Absolutely! Faith Healing/prayer is just as bad as homoeopathy. Just as dangerous if you convince people it works and just as dishonest.

You may have noticed that I keep bringing up MNers who have claimed that god makes sure they get a parking space in town. They don't see how ludicrous that is.

FreudiansSlipper Tue 22-Apr-14 17:36:18

the point I was trying to make (though not very clearly) was that what we consider to be fake, not proved and so on changes and we do accept some theories that are unproven often if it agrees with our way of thinking . our way of thinking changes as society changes. it was not that long ago in western culture acupuncture was considered ridiculous but many people have used it and found it to a more successful than what their doctor had prescribed them

there are many people who will tell you that faith heeling has helped them, to them they have the proof that they themselves feel better (as with using homeopathic remedies) who are you, or other people to tell them they are talking rubbish when they themselves have felt the benefits

I have known people who have believed their faith and power of prayer has got them through the most difficult times in their life how can I argue with them (I am an atheist) I have not lived their life

but if you are talking about people who deliberately deceive vulnerable people that is not the same thing, people get deceived in many ways when they are vulnerable

Minifingers Tue 22-Apr-14 18:18:30

Oh come on. 99.999% of the time prayer IS harmless.

As is homoeopathy.

Unfortunately we can't say the same for conventional medicine, which is estimated to kill about 225,000 a year in the US.

Homoeopaths have a duty to inform their clients about the scientific evidence that homoeopathic treatments are ineffective. If people still go ahead and have the treatment on the basis of anecdotal evidence of efficacy (which they generally do) then that's fair enough.

Most people only turn to alternative medicine because conventional medicine, which of course is free at the point of use, has been unhelpful or is unacceptable to them.

Again - nobody is answering my question: what is wrong with a placebo?

<disclaimer - I am not a homoeopath and I do not use homoeopathy. I just dislike the superiority of some people on this thread)

NeedsAsockamnesty Tue 22-Apr-14 18:34:00

If I was selling prayer and saying it cured pain and illness then bloody right I would expect to be ridiculed and corrected

piscivorous Tue 22-Apr-14 20:34:40

I'm a great believer in letting people make their own decisions for themselves and, by extension, for their own children. They might not be the decisions I would make but they are entitled to that and they will learn by experience just as I did when my DCs were young. I don't believe any of us should force our views onto anyone else unless the actions of that other person is damaging to others.

NeedsASock If you were selling prayers I would politely disagree with you and would encourage any buyers to seek proper treatment but I would defend your right to offer prayers and theirs to take you up on it. People need to live and let live

fisherpricephone Tue 22-Apr-14 22:08:48

Minifingers well, since all clinical trials compare drugs with placebos, the trouble with placebos are that they less effective than conventional drugs.

I have no issue with free placebos, I regularly kiss my kids' bumps and scrapes better. But charging for homeopathic arnica that does the same job? And being allowed to claim effectiveness when there are no clinical trials showing effectiveness? That's very wrong.

fisherpricephone Tue 22-Apr-14 22:11:17

Minifingers well, since all clinical trials compare drugs with placebos, the trouble with placebos are that they less effective than conventional drugs.

I have no issue with free placebos, I regularly kiss my kids' bumps and scrapes better. But charging for homeopathic arnica that does the same job? And being allowed to claim effectiveness when there are no clinical trials showing effectiveness? That's very wrong.

Minifingers Tue 22-Apr-14 22:29:23

Homeopathic treatments well not be as effective as conventional drugs, but they're also never dangerous and don't have any unpleasant side effects.

Re clinical trials - there are also none showing TENS machines are good for labour analgesia, but many women find them great and helpful. Why shouldn't the manufacturers be able to report this? After all, there is no onus on drug companies to tell all patients about the many trials which find limited or no benefit of commonly prescribed drugs like statins and anti depressants.

We're not really doing the "conventional medicine kills" are we? It's almost embarrassing.

If 10 people are dying of appendicitis and a surgeon operates and saves nine of them then some people try and say this proves conventional medicine is a bad thing because one died.

Meanwhile the guy selling homoeopathic remedies to the families of those dying is a hero because his cures harmed no one.

As long as everyone is informed of the facts so they can make a proper decision I'm ok with some of you opting out of conventional medicine altogether. We're print out some nice Darwin Award Certificates.

piscivorous Tue 22-Apr-14 23:01:22

Back How rude are you?
On balance I would tend to agree with your point but find that kind of dismissive rudeness very off-putting

that what we consider to be fake, not proved and so on changes

Not with with homoeopathy it won't because as I keep saying there is no mystery there. We know it doesn't work and there's no room for it to suddenly be proved to be true after all.

It fails on the most important test. People on homoeopathy treatments get better no more often than people who are given some other fake treatment.

We're not talking about a treatment that works when we don't know why. We're talking about a treatment that doesn't work.

alAswad Tue 22-Apr-14 23:06:51

Polkadots I looked that paper up and haven't read it in great detail because I'm tired, but from my understanding of the methods and results sections I'm reminded of this:

xkcd.com/882/

alAswad Tue 22-Apr-14 23:08:18

That is, if you were talking about this one.

How irresponsible are you? That 225,000 is a stock argument for conspiracy theorists and con artists. When it succeeds in convincing people that conventional medicine is dangerous people go to quacks instead and some of them die

PolkadotsAndMoonbeams Tue 22-Apr-14 23:48:19

alAswad that isn't the one I was talking about, although looking at that I agree with you. grin The authors also seem to have thought "Let's make this sound confusing and put lots of equations in and people will just read the conclusion". I do love that website you linked.

The one I saw was using Raman and UV/vis spectroscopy to look at long range structure, rather than proposing a mechanism I think. It wasn't what I was after, so I didn't really read it, but something obviously stuck! Probably because I couldn't believe people were getting funding to research homoeopathy I'll have a look for it tomorrow, when I'm not so tired!

sashh Wed 23-Apr-14 08:10:11

but they're also never dangerous and don't have any unpleasant side effects.

I think they are dangerous. If you are delaying medical treatment for your child because you are giving them sugar pills that is dangerous.

If you are relying on homeopathy to prevent you getting malaria on holiday and you are then bitten by a mossie and develop malaria that is harm.

Of course if you then react to a treatment for malaria you will claim conventional medicine is dangerous when in fact if you had taken conventional anti malarials you would have been fine.

Minifingers Wed 23-Apr-14 08:16:15

Sash - credit adults with the good sense to know when conventional treatment is necessary and urgent.

It's rare for this not to be the case.

Minifingers Wed 23-Apr-14 08:18:32

Love the way people choose rare and bizarre examples - like cretins using homeopathy to prevent malaria - as rationale for the total dismissal of homeopathy, which is overwhelmingly turned to by people suffering minor ailments which conventional treatments are either not available for or are ineffectual.

cardibach Wed 23-Apr-14 11:38:55

But Minifingers homeopathy is ineffectual too - it has been proved not to work. What bit of that is hard to understand. It isn't that it works but we don't know why or that it hasn't been proved to work it is that it has been proved not to. Actually, it is still pretty unpleasant when used for minor ailments. A friend of DDs had bouts of tonsillitis regularly when she was at primary school. Her dad insisted on 'treating' it with homeopathy and as a result she was miserably ill for two weeks at a time and missed loads of school when suitable antibiotics would have helped her in 24 hours. Her life was not in jeopardy, but her quality of life certainly was.

PolkadotsAndMoonbeams Wed 23-Apr-14 19:14:09

alAswad, this is it. Admittedly, I didn't realise it was published in a Homeopathy Journal.

Minifingers Wed 23-Apr-14 22:31:49

Cardi - homeopathy works for many people who use it, in the way all placebos do.

And please - can I repeat that most people use homeopathy to treat minor ailments, mostly not serious infections that need antibiotics.

bruffin Thu 24-Apr-14 06:19:00

Minifinger

bruffin Thu 24-Apr-14 06:30:40

Not sure what happened there
Minifinger, by your own admission we are talking about self limiting illnesses that would have resolved by themselves. Homeopathy is doing nothing at all and not "working"

I have seen people post that they have Homeopathy works because they had something like warts, taken a homeopathy cure and 6 weeks later the wart went (I am not exagerating). This has convinced them homeopathy works confused

Minifingers Thu 24-Apr-14 07:15:06

No - homeopathy makes people who use it feel better. Like prayer. Like faith healing. It has a placebo effect.

This is why people turn to it REPEATEDLY.

bruffin Thu 24-Apr-14 07:36:00

They turn to it repeatedly because they have more money than sense and there are too many charletons waiting to take that money.

piscivorous Thu 24-Apr-14 10:46:08

So what exactly is the problem here? In most cases people make an informed decision to try homeopathy for something either mild and self-limiting or, as a complement to traditional treatment, for symptoms of chronic conditions that are not responding to mainstream treatment alone. Nobody should think they have a right to stop anybody else choosing to do that even if they, personally, think it's rubbish

alAswad Thu 24-Apr-14 10:47:20

Polkadots yes that was why I couldn't be bothered to read it, I was thinking 'fuck if I'm going through all these tables of digits and trying to understand what 'electronic copying' means at this time of night' grin

I do love Raman spectroscopy though <geek blush> I'll have a look at the real one in a bit need all the help I can get to procrastinate from my dissertation

BerniesBurneze Thu 24-Apr-14 11:03:22

My god, I knew people believed in homeopathy but I had no idea people doubted teething. I am genuinely shocked.

My little boy rarely feels pain. When he is teething he gets a temperature. This never bothers him so he is still happy, but I can umderstand other babies would find a temperature uncomfortable (ie painful).

After that he gets bright red cheeks like a gnome, again, still a happy boy but he will become fussy and searching for something to bite on ocassion. I can understand how other babies find this more painful. At times he's woken 20 times a night because he can't settle when he is teething.

This is always surrounded by biting and a tooth erupting. Apart from once when I was convinced but no tooth came through.

Google images a picture of a child's skulk regarding baby teeth. It is absolutely fascinating.

The baby teeth force through the pathway for the adult teeth. Which would explain the lack of pain when you lose your baby teeth.

alAswad Thu 24-Apr-14 11:07:05

As for homeopathy itself personally I think it's a load of balls, but if people want to use it then there's not much anyone can do about that. I'd have an issue with practitioners deliberately targeting vulnerable people, for example terminally ill patients, or with someone having the choice made for them e.g. parents refusing conventional medicine for their children, but for anything else it's people's own choice what to spend their money on. I imagine (perhaps naively) that most people are aware that science says it doesn't work, and for those who choose to try it anyway they have a belief in something other than science - which, as long as it's a fully informed decision, is their choice, even if it makes no sense to me whatsoever. That won't stop me trying to persuade them that it's all rubbish, especially if they're using it to treat something serious - doesn't mean I don't respect their right to choose, just that I think the choice they're making is the wrong one, iyswim.

Deliberately spreading misleading information about the dangers of conventional medicine is another matter, though.

sashh Thu 24-Apr-14 11:09:09

Sash - credit adults with the good sense to know when conventional treatment is necessary and urgent.

How can I when they think that homeopathy is sometimes appropriate?

It's not just Homoeopathy, Reiki, Faith Healing or Crystal Healing. We are teaching people that magic works. After all that effort over 1000s of years to accumulate real knowledge we are abandoning it and replacing it with wishful thinking.

As you grow up your education consists of what you were taught in school and what you pick up from other people/media.

Are you sick? Don't try finding out what is wrong, Just wear this crystal or let me wave my hands about and mumble a bit. Do you want a new career? For just £49.99 you can get someone to read your palm, head, elbows or whatever and that will be more effective than actually learning a new skill or finding out what you are good at.

When faced with a new situation people apply what they know already. For too many people that means they will look for some magical means to achieve the end. They won't worry about the facts because "Science doesn't know everything" and "We all have our own truths".

They know this because they heard it online. Probably right here on MN.

bruffin Thu 24-Apr-14 11:18:38

"The baby teeth force through the pathway for the adult teeth"

I dont think thats true. My dd and some other children i know adult teeth came through behind there baby teeth, so for a little while they actually had two rows of teeth.

MaidOfStars Thu 24-Apr-14 11:34:18

I'd have an issue with practitioners deliberately targeting vulnerable people, for example terminally ill patients, or with someone having the choice made for them e.g. parents refusing conventional medicine for their children, but for anything else it's people's own choice what to spend their money on. I imagine (perhaps naively) that most people are aware that science says it doesn't work, and for those who choose to try it anyway they have a belief in something other than science - which, as long as it's a fully informed decision, is their choice, even if it makes no sense to me whatsoever

Check out Homeopathy AIDS Africa

Mission statement:
To relieve the suffering of HIV/AIDS patients using classical homoeopathy
To identify the homoeopathic remedies most successful in treating HIV/AIDS
To spread this knowledge throughout Tanzania and Africa
To produce formal, ethical research
To prove to the world what homoeopathy can do

This is what the "no harm done" brigade are feeding. If homeopathy is "accepted" by the richest countries in the world, if it defended as a valid health choice, if it touted as succeeding where conventional medicine has failed, what fucking chance do these people stand?

KissesBreakingWave Thu 24-Apr-14 11:44:43

whatstheharm.net/ - for all your 'but homeopathy/crystal healing/whateverthewoo doesn't hurt anyone.' needs.

This crap has a body count.

Oh, and the power of prayer? Actual study results: slight negative effect. If there is a god and it is answering prayers, the evidence seems to suggest it is weak and malevolent.

BerniesBurneze Thu 24-Apr-14 12:26:22

Bruffin, it is true. Honestly? I can't link as I'm on my phone but Google skull+baby teeth. Just because they milk teeth hadn't fallen out it didnt mean they hadn't left a gap in the jaw for the adult teeth to push through.

alAswad Thu 24-Apr-14 13:00:42

MaidOfStars and Kisses I don't believe that homeopathy is harmless, I think it's exploitative when done for profit (at least if the practitioners are aware that it doesn't work), cruel to those to whom it gives false hope and dangerous if people are so convinced by it that they refuse conventional medicine in its favour. But I do believe that IF people are informed about the choices they're making there's not much that can be done about it. It would be completely unethical to force conventional medicine on people (except where they aren't capable of informed consent), and it can hardly be made illegal to sell distilled water and sugar pills if they come with the disclaimer that they're not scientifically proven to work. In an ideal world yes, people would know enough about science to understand that homeopathy is bollocks, but we have to work with what we've got, and that includes people making the wrong choices for themselves. All we can do is try and educate people who believe in it as to why it doesn't work (as indeed I would if someone I knew was considering it), but it's always going to be a slow and frustrating process.

As for that homeopathic AIDS organisation, as far as I can tell they're not exploiting people as it's a non-profit, and they're encouraging people to seek or continue with conventional ARVs and running theirs alongside it. Presumably the patients hear the viewpoint that it's not scientific when receiving conventional treatment, so it's not like they're being brainwashed into anything. It's hardly ideal (I would much rather see the money go into actual AIDS research) but there are far greater evils when it comes to healthcare in Africa. Again, if they were actively trying to stop people seeking conventional treatment (or even not encouraging it and acting as though homeopathy alone was enough) that would be very different - I'm sure there are organisations like that too, sadly.

sashh Thu 24-Apr-14 13:30:59

As for that homeopathic AIDS organisation, as far as I can tell they're not exploiting people as it's a non-profit

Seriously?

They appear to be giving out food - a good thing alongside the homeopathy but claiming the homeopathy is what is working.

From their truly scarey website

Q: We have heard that there have been attacks on your project, what is this about?

There is a minority of individuals that oppose homoeopathy, and they have launched attacks on private blogs, newspapers and elsewhere. They are a small but noisy group.

Q: Who are these people?

This is a group of individuals, scientists and pseudo scientists who oppose any form of complementary therapy, or even religion, and are bio-engineering.

So that's me and quite a few other posters, we are all against any religion and are bio-engineering.

bruffin Thu 24-Apr-14 14:22:34

I've seen the pictures Bernies and there is bone between the milk teeth and the adult teeth. My dd had to have an impacted tooth removed last year. It was very low in the jaw and growing into the back molar, they had to remove bone to get to it from above.

CalamityKate1 Thu 24-Apr-14 15:13:54

How can something based on a lie be harmless?

A group of unscrupulous dodgy builders convince an old person to pay them to fix his roof. They don't fix it but he feels better because he THINKS it's fixed. Is that ok?

The same group of builders occasionally do fix the odd roof. Shall we let them carry on then? Let's say that by some miracle the roof would have fixed itself eventually anyway. Does that make it right?

How the hell can anything based on an utter lie be ok?

MaidOfStars Thu 24-Apr-14 15:55:16

As for that homeopathic AIDS organisation, as far as I can tell they're not exploiting people as it's a non-profit, and they're encouraging people to seek or continue with conventional ARVs and running theirs alongside it

From the founder and my comments :

In many ways homoeopathy is the perfect medicine for persons suffering from AIDS lie 1, and particularly in Africa why particularly?. AIDS means Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome. Homoeopathy works by stimulating and enhancing the immune system lie 2 and therefore it is precisely in this disease that homoeopathy can be most effective lie 3.

Homoeopathy is a system of medicine with an outstanding record of cures lie 4, both in individual lie 6 and epidemic diseases lie 7. Homoeopathy was extremely effective in the great flu pandemic of 1918 lie 8, and the cholera epidemics of the 19th century lie 9. Homeopathy has proved effective in yellow fever lie 10, whooping cough lie 11, polio lie 12, typhus lie 13, and malaria lie 14. Today, homoeopaths all over the world are having very promising results with AIDS patients lie 15, substantially improving their well being and restoring health lie 16.

On clinical trials for homeopathy:
So I am happy to go for a simple trial initially, with one arm of AIDS patients with homoeopathy and no ARV.

He's proposing "high tech" trials to give patients homeopathy instead of antiretrovirals. But why wouldn't they, given the nonsense he spouts, and the fact that half of Europe happily glug these things down and proclaim them wonder drugs?

CalamityKate1 Fri 25-Apr-14 11:30:48

Disgusting.

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