Feel like DD & I have betrayed our friends(90 Posts)
DD goes on school camp soon. All the pupils going got to write down 1 friend that they wanted to be in a cabin with. When we first put their names down for camp, DD's friend (M)'s mum said it would be good if our DDs put each other's names down and I said I'm sure they would as they are close friends. However another girl (K) is going who is also a good friend of DD and probably has more in common with her and would probably have a better time sharing a cabin with. K & my DD decided to put each other's names down but not to tell M so as not to upset her. M assumed that DD would be putting down her name. Now M's mum (who is also a friend of mine) has found out - she's not angry but it may be that M is paired up with one of the unpopular girls in the class and I'd feel really bad if her experience of camp is ruined because of this. I haven't denied or confirmed whose name DD put down but I don't want to lie but how do I say that DD put down K's name as they felt they'd get on better sharing a cabin? I could ask that the 3 of them share a cabin with someone else as well as this could be possible but I feel one of them will be left out. How to handle it? Thanks
I don't really think anything needs to be done. Your dd decided who she would like to share a room with. I don't think that it was up to you and the other girl's mum to decide that they would be sharing a room. I would just leave it.
I would stay out of it and let the girls / school deal with it. Presumably there will be more than 2 in a cabin so all 3 may end up together anyway.
How old are they? Is this brownies or guides or something?
Tbh, I'd question why they were asked to only put down one name. Things like this can work really well if it's done properly, but if it's handled badly then it can cause more trouble than it's worth.
If the other mother asks you, then I think she would be in the wrong, but if she does then I think you have to tell her that you let your dd make her own choice and that you'd rather the leaders of the camp handled any problems.
I would stay out of it as much as you can.
but it may be that M is paired up with one of the unpopular girls in the class
oooooh tricky, did you discuss this with DD or not , if you didnt and it was purely dds choice then just say so, dd should have told M but again that is down to her , how old are they all? you cant take responsibility for other peoples choices or experiences. Ms mother should be the one asking for shared cabins not you.
Sorry, missed the word school, even though it was in the first sentence!
The staff will do their best to ensure that everyone is in a cabin with someone they named, and if M named your dd she will probably be in the same cabin as your dd and K.
If the other mother asks you say 'of course I would be best for them all to be together - so why don't you talk to the teacher and ensure that M is in the same cabin anyway. If she asks who dd put down, lightly say 'I know it will have been either M or K'.. which is actually true.
The other mother shouldn't really have been trying to dictate what your dd was going to do from the off.
How old are the girls? It sounds to me like an object lesson in not intervening in your children's friendships.
And whatever about M's experience of camp, what about the unfortunate 'unpopular girl' M's 'experience' might be ruined by?
I'd say you and M's mum want to rein it in a bit and mind your own business, and stop micromanaging your daughters' friendships.
Whats wrong with the unpopular girls? That sounds a bit unkind.
Ok. Since when did another parent have the right to tell your daughter what to do? She can put down whatever name she wants and that is her prerogative.
They are all in yr 5. They all put down 2 names - DD put down the other girl plus one yr 6 girl who she likes, as there will also be yr 6's in the cabin with them. I didn't mean to be rude about the 'unpopular girl' but there's only a handful of yr 5 girls going and 1 of the girls is quite a troublemaker and from what DD says everyone else has sort of 'paired up' apart from this girl and DD's friend M. But yes, I guess the girls just have to make their own decisions. Thanks everyone.
And you might find that [shock horror] this 'unpopular' girl is given priority to try and encourage friendships with other people.
This is a lesson
Do not try to engineer your children's friendships. Do not get involved
And failing that - say what WooWoo said.
Well you never know, in a few years time in secondary school, your DD might be considered the unpopular troublemaker.
Not a nice way to talk about a 9 year old girl.
Stay out of it. It was your DD's decision not yours. A friend of mine's DD ended up for 6 years in a form with someone she was not even friends with because she happened to be sitting next to her on the day they filled out the forms and she didn't want to offend her . . .
And try not to worry too much. I had much the same situation with my DD and her best friend. After feeling horribly guilty for months I discovered by chance that the best friend hadn't put DD's name either! I wish I hadn't wasted all that energy worrying and feeling bad.
If she put down two people why didn't she put down M and K?
But to be honest I was the unpopular one in my school, always the one that didn't have a partner etc. I wasn't a trouble maker just some popular girls decided to gang up and say I'd called them names and pushed them over
We went on a school trip and I was put in a room to encourage me to make friends and the girls suggested a game of blind mans bluff.
So I was blindfolded to play it. They threw bottles and tripped me over. Their parents complained that they we're put in a room with me because I was a trouble maker.
This girl might not be so much of a trouble maker as you think, so I think it's very unkind to worry about if your dd will be put with her.
The only person I feel sorry for us this poor 'unpopular' girl.
I'm guessing they're not great friends anyway as your dd could have put both names down?
Sadly this is the age....and onwards ime girls arn't so good in groups so probably best other girl isn't in their room if they don't want her there.
As the Mother of a girl with only a few close friends, I have to say it's people like you OP who complicate girl's lives further. Get your nose out of your DDs friendships and let her have the power. She can deal with this kind of thing herself
I would say that the only child who could potentially have her camp experience ruined is this unpopular girl, especially if other parents are getting involved in order to stop their children from having to share with her. Who told you she was a trouble maker? Your DD or a teacher?
God forbid someone should have to share with an unpopular girl!
I hope they split up all the friends and have a good mix up. try not to pass that attitude onto your child, its pretty nasty.
1/ it may be that M is paired up with one of the unpopular girls in the class and I'd feel really bad if her experience of camp is ruined because of this that made me feel sad and unsympathetic really
2/ I think you need to let the girls handle it themselves. nowt to do with betrayal
You sound concerned enough to OP, so maybe you should suggest that all three of them be housed together. After all, we wouldn't want poor 'M' to have to associate with the unpopular girl
Just don't get involved. I get this a bit. Child's friend talks to get mum about a situation in school. Mum talks to me. Presumably I am then supposed to engineer things. Only I don't. I keep out if it.
So the other girl and her mother thought that both daughters would put down each other. You and your daughter decided to choose someone else. You then withheld that bit of information from both the girl and her mother, which meant that the other DD was unable to choose a different friend as she honoured the original agreement.
That right? Then YABU. And pretty nasty.
Funny really.When I went to school it was the bitches/trouble makers (and in secondary school 'slappers') who were the 'popular' ones.
The unpopular were usually the nice ones.
What whocansay said. What a horrible example to set her - basically deciding which of her two friends would get left out behind their backs. While you both knew the other girl was putting her name down. Urgh - how old are you?
YABVU, now M might well be stuck with an unpopular girl, what if the unpopular girl like, wears glasses?? I mean, ew. Or she might not wear makeup. Think of the severe emotional distress of having to spend time with such a child.
When my DD was about that age she had a friend at school who she really liked. This girls mother always controlled her daughter's friendships via arranging playdates and manipulations like you have described here. It was not fair to her daughter or any of the girls in the group and, in the long run, caused a lot of upset.
Please try to keep out of it
To be honest having said that your DD would put M's name down I think you should have told the Mum that she wasn't so she could put someone else down. Having interfered in the first place you should have made this right once you realised she risked being left out.
Ffs. No wonder so many kids can't do anything for themselves these days, if this is the level of interfering that goes on.
It's your dd's trip, not yours. In year 5 she is perfectly capable of managing her own friendships.
Well I certainly haven't interfered yet. I got a text from the other mum to say she'd found out that DD hadn't put her name down. I felt sad for her DD and very guilty. She's quite timid & doesn't stand up for herself which is why, if she was put with someone she didn't want to be with, it might not be a great experience for her. But there is little I can do. I certainly didn't go behind anyone's back. And for the record the girl I refered to is only unpopular because of the upset she's caused many times over the years. Nothing to do with her appearance etc.
WTF is up with people being so nasty about other people's kids recently? "unpopular girl" - who says that about a 9 year old?
At 9, none are starring in Glee ffs, however their mothers don't seem to have outgrown the petty bitchiness of the school yard.
How about teaching kindness, consideration for others, active inclusion of those on the fringes of any group, celebration of difference etc? Often with girls ostracism is used as a method of bullying that's far harder to spot & tackle by adults than the punches boys throw.
It is interesting to see however how many adult women who end up in socially successful positions learn to reverse their early pariah status though - Kate Middleton is a prime example of this.
At best your interference is at risk of stunting your child's emerging social skills.
And for the record the girl I refered to is only unpopular because of the upset she's caused many times over the years.
Oh, do elaborate. This kid is 9/10, right?
it may be that M is paired up with one of the unpopular girls in the class
god that is so nasty - ime the 'popular' girls were prize biatches fwiw
and that was more than one girl that you referred to wasn't it?
Stay out of it. You will have years of this sort of playground politics to deal with.
If was deffo plural nigellasdealer.
My hasty unproven conclusions about the OP's child's class from this thread
Popular = spiteful, bitchy, two faced sheep
Unpopular = perhaps studious?, independent of mind and gob, potential future leader
See Op I can be a right cow too! Either way I'm rooting for the underdog here Hopefully you'll soon offend the Queen Bee on the PTA, and get a taste of school girl social ostracism for yourself, (as actually I'm not mean enough to wish it on your daughter).
Julybutterfly, exactly what I picked out.
Sounds like you are scheming along with the school girls OO. Bit pathetic really. Sorry if that is harsh.
oh op don't just don't get involved with girls friendship groups. they usually involve girls falling out then mums getting involved and falling out followed by girls then becoming friends again and mums looking like daft mares.
the best thing to do is bring your dds up to be both confident enough to stand up for themselves but kind enough to tolerate and help the less confident ones.
stock answer to other mothers like your friends dd is to smile and say ' I have no idea who dd put down, it's her business.'
M is paired up with one of the unpopular girls and I'd feel really bad if her experience at camp is ruined because of this
You sound like an absolute cow...
Is OP coming back?
I reckon if the kid's unpopularity was genuinely linked to her behaviour, OP would have phrased if differently. Ie, "is paired up with one of the unpleasant/badly behaved/bullying members of the class". The fact the word "unpopular" is used is telling.
Perhaps OP is just stating the facts as she sees them?
1. One or more of the girls going to the camp is/are unpopular - it is not unreasonable to make the observation that child A doesn't have many/any friends and is therefor unpopular for whatever reason (it doesn't make the unpopularity 'right' or excuse the school and/or parents from encouraging inclusion, it just states the status quo).
2. OP doesn't want M's experience to be ruined if she's paired with someone with whom she doesn't get along (again, inclusion and tolerance should be encouraged but some people just do not gel and that can be very obvious when you're rooming with them).
The phrasing was not great, but I don't think OP was intending to be unkind.
OP, take a step back. If M's mum pushes the issue about your DD putting K's name down instead, just comment that your DD didn't discuss it with you before hand and you didn't know until after the fact. Leave the rest of it to the teacher in charge.
As a mother of one of the "unpopular girls" I find this really incredible. It's bad enough when my daughter's classmates are mean to her, but thinking like that as an adult wtf.
Ugh. My darling DS is off to cub camp in may and is already catastrophising about it (he has ASD). Today's question was about traps for wild animals in the woods. At least that's easier to solve than mums and kids ganging up so he doesnt sully their awesome with his unpopularity ....
Stop it, stop it, stop it!!! You cannot force, organise or manipulate friendships amongst kids.
Whilst it sounds like you are worrying with the best of intentions, you and M's mum just have to let this happen.
Also, your comment about unpopular girls?! Really?! How would you feel if another Mum was saying/feeling that she didn't want her child to share with whatever 'type' of popularity bracket your daughter is in?!
Let them or the school decide. It will not end well if you try and manipulate the situation. You will be setting a dangerous precedent for future years.
Take a step back
yes my daughter was 'unpopular' at her last junior school - funnily enough the 'popular' girls are now the ones making pleading duck faces and wearing their granny's knickers and not much else on facebook - just saying.
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
You sound a bit over-involved, OP. Your DDs made her choice and im sure she's quite happy about it
I think you - and M's mother - missed the point.
The children were asked to write names down of who they wanted to share a room with.
Not the parents.
Personally I wouldn't give a rat's arse who my DD put down to share with. I would be very pissed off with her if I heard her making decisions based on the alleged 'popularity' of some other child.
You both need to stay out of your kids' friendships and let them sort things out for themselves.
Just because she put a year 6 girl down doesn't mean the year 6 girl reciprocated. I would doubt she did as it sounds as if most of her own year group are attending. Teachers will likely put all the year 5 together. I hope your DD therefore goes to camp being a little more open-minded about the sleeping arrangements than you are!
Whether you intend to or not you are sending your children quite unpleasant messages about how to treat others.
'Unpopularity' is neither taught nor contagious.
Perhaps both of you mothers would have been better hatching a plot to teach your children to include others and be less judgemental, instead of manipulating and condoning attempts to exclude other children and trying to control their friendship groups.
The only place you should get involves is talking to your daughter about standing up for her convictions, it was wrong of her to tell the other girl shed put her name.
YWBU to make the promise in the first place. However, you are getting an unnecessarily hard time over your use of the word "unpopular", I think.
DS1 (aged 11) went on a residential and, like in this case, they were told to write 2 names down of people they wanted to share a room with. Rooms held 2 or 3 people. DC1 and his friend ended up with an "unpopular" child in their room.
This child was a bully and was unpopular for very good reasons. In his school career he had picked fights with almost everyone in the class (including breaking another child's arm), stolen from many of the children, deliberately broken possessions, followed children home and thrown stones at their houses/parents' cars and more nasty stuff.
On the first night he kept the other two awake until 2 in the morning by shouting at them, poking them, jumping on them as they lay in bed and eating all the food he'd brought then throwing up on the floor. The boys then went to wake a teacher who shouted at the boy and all were told to go back to sleep. The boy continued with the awful behaviour so the other two went downstairs to try to sleep in the lounge.
Mobile phones weren't allowed or DS1 would have phoned us. In the morning they both asked the teacher to phone home for their parents to collect them because they would not spend another night in a room with the "unpopular" child. There was some reshuffling and the boy was in a room on his own for the rest of the trip. The second day was ruined for DS1 and his friend because they were too tired to take part in many of the activities.
This trip cost us a lot of money and I was very unhappy when I heard about it and made sure the HT knew our feelings. DS1 and his friend were deliberately chosen to share with the bully because the staff through they wouldn't make a fuss.
I repeat, some children are unpopular for good reason.
DH is a teacher, he gets exasperated with this sort of crap.
Some days he comes home late due to meetings with " mothers if girls" discussing these kind of issues at length.
He will come home, roll his eyes and say " mothers of girls!" And I know enough
Why can't you just be honest?
My DC aren't quite that age yet, so I'm trying to recall how it was for me.
And I can say quite categorically that it wouldn't have occurred to my mother to get involved. I had a hands-on, loving SAHM, but one thing she never did was involve herself in my friendships and quarrels.
It all sounds rather nasty really.
And I think your dd and friend were very mean agreeing to her face that they'd put M down, but then deciding behind her back not to. They may say it was to save her upset, but surely even at their age they would be aware that it would come out, and it would be much worse if she was expecting to be with them and find they haven't when she gets there?
I think you can see how mean it is to, as you initially say that they could only put down 1 name, then you later amend it to 2 and say they put down someone else, so it wasn't as though by putting down M they couldn't have also put down each other.
I think those who are picking up on the "unpopular" are slightly missing the point, that if M is put with none of her friends then it will potentially spoil the holiday for her in some ways. It doesn't have to be because she's with an "unpopular" child, just that she isn't with her friends.
My dd1 was put in a cabin with a group of 3 that were very friendly together but not with her, and it did taint the holiday. Because the group she was friendly with were together, she had to go looking for them, if she found them, then they were talking about jokes that had happened in the cabin/the midnight feast they were having that night.
Yes, ideally it would have developped a friendship with the 3 she was with (who were perfectly nice). But they had each other and didn't need a fourth. Any one of them individually was friendly enough with dd1, but just didn't really notice her when together.
If they had tried to totally mix friendships up then it wouldn't have mattered at all, but to have 3 friends and a 1 didn't work.
Just reading about this scenario makes me feel anxious - it brings back clear memories of this horrible 'writing down friends names' thing, which we did when moving up to high school, to say which friends we would like to share classes with. I was an M, I reckon.
Anyway, I digress. I think you should just stay out of it op! Simple. It all sounds a bit full on.
"K & my DD decided to put each other's names down but not to tell M so as not to upset her"
In what way would this not upset M? She was obviously going to find out eventually, and be even more upset that the original agreement had been broken behind her back.
Another mother of an "unpopular" girl here. Feels miserable to think parents are attempting to orchestrate like this. No wonder there are so many mean girls.
Let them get on with it.
Who else feels sorry for the 'unpopular' girl? I wonder how it feels when nobody wants to share a cabin with you at all
I used to be "unpopular". I can tell you it's miserable to be excluded time after time when everyone else seems to fit in. If anyone had taken the trouble to include me in things it would have made such a difference.
Joolsy, don't you think it's a bit ironic that you came here concerned that you'd hurt someone's feelings but you couldn't give a toss about what happens to the 'unpopular' girl?
I hate this kind of thing. If the school want the girls to have some say then ask the girls at school. Or better still, don't ask them at all and tell then which cabin they'll be in and expect them to get on with it and then refuse to put up with any nonsense about popular and unpopular girls being forced to mix!
The worst thing to do is to involve parents who want their child to simultaneously be in the nicely behaved and very popular group even if it means publically (in this case now it has become known) selling another girl out to engineer the best option for their own child.
Some parents seem too inclined to be totally selfish in all of this that I just don’t' think they should be involved unless there is a genuine welfare issue to consider.
oh no, not an unpopular child?? how dreadful
Yes I can imagine it must be v hard if you find yourself without a partner - when I said she was unpopular, I meant mainly with M as she's been pretty awful to her over the years. I apologise for my use of the term 'unpopular' - maybe I should have worded it better - I just meant that M might have been upset if she'd been partnered with her for the camp but hopefully the school might recognise this. Sorry if I offended anyone, it was not my intention - my DD is certainly not part of a clique of any kind and tries to be friends with anyone. But your advice has been very helpful and I'll trust my DD to make her own decisions where friends are concerned. Thank you all.
fair enough but what you actually said was 'partnered with one of the unpopular girls' didn't you? (my italics)
I don't get it.
First you say "All the pupils going got to write down 1 friend that they wanted to be in a cabin with" and that your DD chose very close friend K to share a cabin with, rather than other very close friend M (who happens to be the DD of your friend and who also happened to be under the impression that she and your DD were going to chose each other).
Then you say "They all put down 2 names - DD put down the other girl plus one yr 6 girl who she likes" so if, in fact, they were allowed to put 2 names down, why didn't your DD chose K and M?
Perhaps your DD doesn't really consider M such a close friend after all. Perhaps M only imagines that closeness, but it only exists on one (her) side to that degree. Maybe the friendship wouldn't have continued, at any depth, if it hadn't been for the friendship between you and M's mum.
Sadly, I think this girl could end up feeling hurt and left out at camp (especially given the way that it has happened), so perhaps the best thing would be (while there is still time for her to arrange other camp friendships/cabin arrangements) to be upfront.
Maybe your DD would feel equal to kindly explaining to M that she (your DD) had actually chosen K. If you DD can't do that, or even in addition to your DD doing that, perhaps you should simply say (to your friend, M's mum) that you know your DD has chosen another girl to share with, but you hope they all get the chance to go around in a group, and that you hope that this (information your giving) leaves time for M to chose another friend to share with.
I think your daughter should have told M she wasn't putting her down so M could ask someone else. You and M's mum should have stayed out of it. When the mum asked you you should have told her you'll leave it up to your daughter. It was a mean thing of you and your daughter to do to M and her mum though. Yes your daughter should choose her companion, but she should not have lied to/ misled M out of cowardice.
Sometimes unpopular kids are bullies or disruptive and not someone you'd want to share a room with for a few days. There's being unpopular because you're shy and being unpopular because you're an unpleasant pain in the bum.
Fiscal I've experienced mums of boys being exactly like this
I hate all this forced friendship cliquey malarkey. My mam did this and I was so sad and confused for getting in 'trouble' for playing with a girl she didn't deem good enough for me. It's a horrible position to put a child in.
great username btw, 'thatwouldbeanecumenicalmatter'
Thank you Nigella
Does anyone know of any dads who micro manage their kids friendships? I don't. Is it a women's thing then? How sad.
OP, you said "one of the unpopular girls", no amount of back pedalling can change that.
Your statement was clear and I am glad so many took you up on it.
You need to keep your petty nose out, this level of control is weird. M has learnt that people can be two faced and dishonest. Your DD didn't tell her so as not to upset her eh? Where is the logic in that? She was upset in the end wasn't she, and lied to by someone she thought was her friend.
I'm afraid I agree with others - you are not only micro managing your dd's friendships and being crazily melodramatic ('betrayed'!!!!!!) but your use of 'unpopular' speaks volumes.
Why don't you stop defending yourself and listen to the views on here and think about your behaviour?
Some of you are being a bit disingenuous here. DD is Year 5, and has had terrible trouble with some of the girls - swearing at her, kicking her etc. I would absolutely not want her sharing a room with them on a residential.
Are parents actually like this? Engineering friendships and dividing young girls up by their perceived popularity. I have heard it all.
You need to step back . This is kids stuff and you are sounding foolish.
Mynane, so would you describe those girls as "unpopulad" or as "bullies".
We know what unpopular means (not many friends, not seen as cool, does not get invited by others).
Obviously bullies are often not popular, but to equate "bullies" with "unpopular girls" is what is disingenuous.
I just asked my dd, year 5, what she thinks of this. She has a school beginning of year 6.
Now my dd is
absolutely terrifying very strong minded, has children she strongly likes and dislikes in her class...her view?
'Oh my God it's so embarassing her mum is involved! Mum promise me you will leave this all to me and not write about it on Mumsnet!! And also I wouldn't care if I ended up sharing with NAME OF GIRLS SHE DOESN'T LIKE because you don't always get what you want and I'd be with my friends all day anyway'.
School trip beginning of year 6, sorry
They are pretty unpopular because of their behaviour, yes! But no, I would probably not describe them that way.
And, come on, the OP didn't say in her OP 'My daughter has suffered bullying at the hands of X and I don't want her to end up in a room with her' did she? She'd have got completely different responses if she had.
Apparently they are, paranoid. If you've ever wondered what happens to the school bullies after they leave, look no further than this sorry tale.
They have kids, then proceed to stage manage their interactions with their peers from outside the school gates. Sickening.
OP would feel very differently if K and M excluded her DD and didn't tell her because it would upset her. Butt out OP.
Some of the most gossipy people at DC primary are dads, well-involved.
If I were OP I'd text back something like "Sorry, I guess those were [DD's] choices, she hated having to choose." and leave it.
Actually, 6th grade camp was for me (as one of the unpopulars) a revelation. I bunked with a completely different school and so was treated like a normal person. I found this very freaky (not to be constantly bullied by peers). Start of a wakeup call.
DC School LIED. they said everyone would be in a room with at least one person they had named. Instead they stuck DS in with a bunch of kids he didn't choose or like or know (or name). So he refused to cooperate & we had to go fetch him after 90 minutes. £85 well wasted. Am very very wary of school residentials now; over my dead body will DS2 ever go on one.
Wrong on so many levels. On my dd1's camp form, they
were allowed to put one name down...'somebody I would like to get to know better'. Much healthier, the rest was random allocation to mix friendships groups. These kids were in yr6 and by then pretty much knew everyone in their class.
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