To think that ALL smoking (cigarettes and e-cigs) should be banned in public places?!

(363 Posts)
babybearsmummy Mon 03-Mar-14 16:52:42

I've been sat in my GP waiting room with my little girl waiting for my appt and in walks a lady puffing away on an e-cig. She hasn't put it away and is just sat smoking it.

AIBU to think this is rude and that, just because it's not an actual cigarette, the same rules should apply, mainly because it's stinking the whole waiting room out!?!

DarlingGrace Mon 03-Mar-14 16:55:23

e-cigs dont smell, unlike babies who are a heady mixture of piddle, poo and posset plus they make a noise.

babybearsmummy Mon 03-Mar-14 16:57:18

confused hers did.

And for the record my dd was freshly changed and was sat quietly on my lap sucking her thumb grin

msrisotto Mon 03-Mar-14 16:57:34

Some e-cigs do smell, a lady opposite me on the train had a vanilla scented ecig. Anyway, YABU, e-cigs are not real cigs at all and unless the scent is offensive, they are no harm to anyone.

DarlingGrace Mon 03-Mar-14 16:58:40

FWIW I know they arent real fags but I do think the same areas of abstinence should apply to indoor areas

GreenLandsOfHome Mon 03-Mar-14 17:01:37

Yabu.

They don't 'stink out' whole rooms. There may be a faint scent from some flavours and if it's not to your liking then too bad.

What would you do if she came in wearing a horrifically strong perfume that you didn't like? Clutch your pearls and ask for her to be removed?

Wantsunshine Mon 03-Mar-14 17:02:06

Well then you would also need to ban coffee in public places as that has an aroma.

GreenLandsOfHome Mon 03-Mar-14 17:02:39

Why darling grace?

HenriettaMaria Mon 03-Mar-14 17:05:28

An anti-smoking thread with a new angle.

Oh, joy. hmm

LadyBeagleEyes Mon 03-Mar-14 17:05:56

Smokers will never win will they?

littlemisssarcastic Mon 03-Mar-14 17:06:42

I'd rather doctors surgeries banned anyone who persistently coughs without covering their mouths, sniffs their snotty nose over and over and clears their throat without disposing of the contents they've just hacked up.
I had to sit for an hour at the doctors last week between 2 people who didn't have 1 tissue between them. envy

Ledare Mon 03-Mar-14 17:06:52

Nicotine patches smell fucking awful. I assume people are allowed to use those in public and not be abstinent?

babybearsmummy Mon 03-Mar-14 17:09:57

I'm not having a go at smokers, it just wasn't very nice having to sit in a confined space smelling her e-cig, which smelt a lot like a real cigarette. I don't think I'd have minded if it was vanilla, coffee or whatever other nice smell, but the fact that it smelt like a normal fag wasn't very nice and she could have popped outside for a minute.

I think e-cigs are great. I teach adult and youth education classes sometimes and I think it's better for everyone to have people not smoking on breaks and stinking the place out. However, some of the smells of the flavoured e-cigs are repulsive and really shouldn't be inflicted on everyone. I know it's U of me but that rank 'vanilla' smell. <boak>

Sometimes I forget that I am puffing on my e cig when I walk into buildings, I often have it hanging out of my mouth whilst I am using my hands.

GreenLandsOfHome Mon 03-Mar-14 17:20:52

I think you're telling porkies.

There are lots of different smells, from various fruity ones to vanilla, chocolate, coffee etc.

I've never encountered an e cig that smells like an actual cigarette. Even the tobacco flavours just leave a smell that's a bit scented, sometimes floral.

I think the only explanation is that age was smoking an actual cigarette op.

Ledare Mon 03-Mar-14 17:26:51

The vapour from an e-cig disappears very quickly as well. Wish my G.P waiting room smelled faintly of e-liquid instead of stale smoke, shit and B.O.

I would like to see banned older people who are there because they have a vomiting and diarrhoea bug and lean very closely in order the whisper this information to you.

And it is always older people before I'm accused of ageism. My parents used to go in for anything. The keep away for 48 hours idea never seemed to get through to them.

YABU.

Smoking was banned in public places because it's a massive health risk. E cigs aren't. In fact, the more people see them, the more smokers will be encouraged to try them and the more lives could be saved.

Lots of things stink out waiting rooms. Sadly none of us have the right to be protected from smells we don't like. If we did, there are a lot of other things I'd ban before ecigs grin

sparechange Mon 03-Mar-14 17:29:23

Real cigarettes are dangerous to health. It is perfectly reasonable to object to them in your vicinity.

But e-cigs are about as harmful as a cup of coffee, so if you want to start banning those, you may as well also outlaw any perfumes that might be offensive to anyone.

I personally would lobby hard to ban those grim Lynx smells, and also those sickly celebrity perfumes. They give me a headache, to the extent I have had to get off a train and wait for the next one because a carriage smelt so strongly of perfume.

venusandmars Mon 03-Mar-14 17:29:28

I'm an ex-smoker, and I hate e-cigs because I see people smoking them and it reminds me of al the delights of real smoking sad

And I really don't want my dc to grow up thinking that smoking of any sort is ok.

Treaclepot Mon 03-Mar-14 17:31:45

I hate the smell of some of them, some of them remind me of those vile air freshners. But they are 100 times better than cigs, and don't make me crave a cigerette like a fag does.

Some places do ban both, Our local pub and cafe have.

I was vaping outdoors when a woman approached me and asked me loads of questions about it.
I saw her buying one the next day.

I've not touched a cigarette since I got one, I've smoked 30 a day for 29 years.

They are not harmful at all. What you see is similar to steam from a kettle. Ecigs are by far the most successful quit method, god knows I tried everything else, nothing worked. This works.

Ledare Mon 03-Mar-14 17:38:28

When they bring out an e-liquid which smells like this I will agree with you.

I reckon menthol bacon flavour's probably a bit antisocial.

grin Ledaire
I used to love that as a teen, smelled it recently and gagged.

LimitedEditionLady Mon 03-Mar-14 17:48:44

I smoke but i dont smoke if im in a public place unless its a smoking area like outside a pub for example.I hate walking my ds past people smoking in the street too and i dont care if thats unreasonable because thats how i feel.I dont mind ecigs but I dont think its good around children because Id rather personally that my ds didnt ask what it was.Yes pot calling kettle because I smoke but ds doesnt know I do and Im not proud of it just weak grin

If more people start campaigning for e-cigs to be banned that will confirm what I already suspected. That for a lot of people it wasn't so much about the dangers as the opportunity to be controlling.

Ledare Mon 03-Mar-14 17:50:30

Katie, so did I blush

Pubes, you're the one with the dried fish flavour, yes?

If it winds you up so much, try researching vaping. You'll soon find something else to be concerned about.

WorraLiberty Mon 03-Mar-14 17:52:34

There's not an e-cig in the world that smells like a real cigarette

OP you've just being picky and a bit judgy

Would you have started this thread if it had been her perfume you could smell?

Ledare Mon 03-Mar-14 17:55:41

It's quite encouraging really. Vaping must be a "thing" now that threads on AIBU have been started grin

Haha not really Ledaire grin

Crab e liquid exists though, I think the OP might NBU if it was crab flavour.

lilola Mon 03-Mar-14 17:56:28

An e cig that smells like a real cig?! utter bollocks

ShitOnAStick Mon 03-Mar-14 17:56:32

Well I don't really like seeing people smoking (e cig or normal) but an ecig isn't actually doing any harm to others is it?
I think in a doctors waiting room I'd have no problem with this, it can be bloody stressful waiting if you've got symptoms you're worried about. Doctors surgeries are quite anxiety provoking for some people so I think YABU. Some people smoke more when stressed.

Ledare Mon 03-Mar-14 18:00:21

Crab? <faints>

MyPreciousRing Mon 03-Mar-14 18:00:30

Can't win can we?
Social pariahs, that's us hmm

I gave up 'real' smoking three weeks ago and I feel fabulous after smoking heavily since I was fifteen.

Don't ban my ecigs too

magimedi Mon 03-Mar-14 18:01:36

I've been vaping for 18 months & use 'tobacco' flavour liquid. It smells nothing whatsoever like cigarettes of any description.

YABU

SirChenjin Mon 03-Mar-14 18:03:02

Yep, they should be banned in public. e-cigs normalise smoking, something we've fought for bloody years to stop in preventative services and they aren't odourless. Definitely a backwards step.

Ledare Mon 03-Mar-14 18:03:29

Mind you, no worse than someone who has eaten scampi and lemon crisp things or even worse, the rank aroma of those microwave Chinese cardboard meals.

BackOnlyBriefly - Yes! I find people's reactions to vaping really interesting. I've come to the conclusion that some people are just really pissed off that we're enjoying it!

This made me laugh.

Ledare Mon 03-Mar-14 18:04:47

"Non-smoker Tom Logan said: “My neighbour has a much better job than me and a far more attractive girlfriend, but as he’s a smoker I could always take comfort in the thought of him dying an agonising death"

grin

They normalise vaping not smoking.

SirChenjin Mon 03-Mar-14 18:05:27

No, they normalise smoking.

Ledare Mon 03-Mar-14 18:05:30

“I just hope there isn’t some dangerous side-effect that the manufacturers have kept secret. But I’m sure people who sell nicotine products would never do that.”

hmm Quite.

Alisvolatpropiis Mon 03-Mar-14 18:06:31

I thought the same rules did apply.

Work would throw a fit if I merrily puffed away on a e-cig at my desk!

Ledare Mon 03-Mar-14 18:07:09

But not if you imbibed caffeine or used a nicotine patch?

I think we've become so anti smoking that some people think it's ok to dislike someone who used to sm

SirChenjin Mon 03-Mar-14 18:07:23

My work would too. I work in the NHS. Go figure.

Alisvolatpropiis Mon 03-Mar-14 18:08:09

I've noticed lots of very young teenagers using e-cigs.

The fact they come in flavours seems to be encouraging young people to erm...become addicted to nicotine.

They're a good enough idea but I imagine there will the rules placed on them fairly shortly. A bit of regulation of that market probably wouldn't go amiss either.

ginmakesitallok Mon 03-Mar-14 18:08:44

People do realise that there is no general right to not be offended? As said above smoking indoors was banned because of public health concerns, because of the danger of second hand smoke. There is no danger with second hand vaping.

They don't normalise smoking - they normalise vaping!!

Smoke.

Basically they see it as a character flaw. And like to be judgemental.

I've seen the same thing in comedy - that weight watchers sketch where the leader loathes fat people? Marjory something?

"There's no cure for being a cunt" - half man Lannister

Alisvolatpropiis Mon 03-Mar-14 18:09:13

Work can't see a nicotine patch. Nor smell it.

I wish they would make taking breath mints a rule for heavy coffee drinkers though. Coffee breath is rank.

mayorquimby Mon 03-Mar-14 18:10:06

"If more people start campaigning for e-cigs to be banned that will confirm what I already suspected. That for a lot of people it wasn't so much about the dangers as the opportunity to be controlling."

Yup. You'd have to be a fucking idiot to object to e-cigs in public places.

ginmakesitallok Mon 03-Mar-14 18:10:45

Saying that vaping normalises smoking is like saying drinking a bottle of water normalises drinking a glass of vodka

Even ASH doesn't buy that any more SirChen.

This is an interesting document produced by ASH on the very subject of this thread.

Role models:
Many public health advocates are concerned that the availability and use of NCPs that resemble cigarettes, as some NCPs do, could “re-normalise” smoking, so encouraging their use among children and acting as a gateway to smoking. Others have suggested use of NCPs does not model smoking, but the replacement of smoking, with users conspicuously avoiding the harms smoking causes. As yet, there is little evidence on either side although it seems likely that both effects will occur. The available evidence does suggest that, so far, sustained use of NCPs among children in Britain is limited to those who have already tried smoking. This will remain an important area of research.

Innogen Mon 03-Mar-14 18:12:24

What about people who smell of BO? Ban them too OP!

Don't let the facts get in the way of a good myth wink
DD was a smoker, now she vapes, as do most of her ex smoking friends. I rejoice that young people find vaping a satisfying alternative.

candycoatedwaterdrops Mon 03-Mar-14 18:14:26

My doctor's surgery stinks. A e-cig would probably enhance it. grin

venusandmars Mon 03-Mar-14 18:15:21

I'm with SirChenjin they are shaped liked cigarettes, they have smoke like cigarettes, you put them in your mouth and inhale like cigarettes, and the tobacco companies are active in the industry (ever wondered why?)

Vaping is not something different. It is using a smoking device and action.

I totally get that it is really helping people to move away from smoking, but making it ok to 'vape' in places where smoking is banned is a backward step.

E cigs are shaped like cigarettes.
Vape sticks look like a pen.

candycoatedwaterdrops Mon 03-Mar-14 18:16:59

"I would like to see banned older people who are there because they have a vomiting and diarrhoea bug and lean very closely in order the whisper this information to you."

Older people are more vulnerable to becoming very ill from D&V bugs. I'm in a high risk group (immunosuppressed) and my GP is always happy to see me if I'm very poorly with a stomach bug.

WorraLiberty Mon 03-Mar-14 18:17:13

venus they do not have 'smoke' like cigarettes

They have vapour...hence the word vaping.

gamerchick Mon 03-Mar-14 18:18:48

you're being ridiculous OP.. stinking the whole room out indeed hmm

specialsubject Mon 03-Mar-14 18:19:05

actually if someone came in reeking of perfume I would wait outside!!

it is quite a difficult choice between that and the stink of a cigarette. Stinky-stick a bit worse I suppose, perfume usually walks out with the wearer.

Ledare Mon 03-Mar-14 18:20:03

candy, I'm sorry to hear that. I bet you choose to seat yourself away from others if you can?

ginmakesitallok Mon 03-Mar-14 18:20:49

venus - my ecig does NOT look like a cigarette - or a pen for that matter. pic here The big tobacco companies have no connection to the companies I use to purchase my vaping supplies.

Vaping is using a nicotine delivery system - it is NOT smoking. It does not cause the harm that smoking does. It will not kill me. It will not kill you.

Sorry should have said my vape stick looks like a pen confused

Ledare Mon 03-Mar-14 18:23:24

It would hardly enhance a teen's street cred, would it? grin

Gateway, my arse.

caruthers Mon 03-Mar-14 18:23:26

I don't vape and it doesn't bother me if people vape around me one jot.

Whoever mentioned it up thread about this being a controlling attitude is right.

Mine looks nothing like a cigarette. It looks like a black rectangular box with a little red bottle on top. It doesn't produce smoke it produces vapour. The tobacco industry owns around 2% of the market - the crap end, incidentally.

DarlingGrace Mon 03-Mar-14 18:25:58

Im an ex smoker. I never realised how much I stunk until I got my nose back and smell other people

Hotmad Mon 03-Mar-14 18:26:43

I haven't read the whole thread so I apologise but I wanted to add that I hate it when people do that, when they did smoke actual cigs, did they smoke in GP surgery? No. Can they not wait a short while to they get out?
I saw a man smoking one in toys r us and I just thought it was silly as he could've waited to get out!

DarlingGrace Mon 03-Mar-14 18:26:49

Who ever was talking about teens - an e-cig is he nicotine of choice in local schools.

ginmakesitallok Mon 03-Mar-14 18:27:14

As for the gateway argument - why on earth would somebody swap from a cheap, stink free, harmless activity to one which is expensive, stinks and will kill them??? Only a non-smoker could come up with such a stupid argument.

monicalewinski Mon 03-Mar-14 18:27:21

AAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!

That is all.

Ledare Mon 03-Mar-14 18:27:26

Mine looks ridiculous, but I am over forty and give no fucks. To me it doesn't look as stupid as smoking a cigarette while hacking my lungs up.

I passed the smoking looks cool phase twenty five years ago along with the rest of the world.

Hotmad Mon 03-Mar-14 18:27:39

I used to smoke until I got pregnant too.

ginmakesitallok Mon 03-Mar-14 18:28:20

Darling - great. Would you rather it was a cigarette??

Dwerf Mon 03-Mar-14 18:30:55

I think there has to be a modicum of sense here, I'm currently smoking and vaping (don't ask, I'm weird, hope to fully swap at some point). There are places I wouldn't vape, the same as I wouldn't smoke there; on the bus, a workplace, walking round Aldi etc. But I would vape in a pub and possibly a cafe, but probably only if other people are.

I don't feel it normalises smoking, smokers are still the lepers of society whereas vaping is gaining ground and becoming more acceptable. I don't anyone who tries vaping first would have a cigarette and think "blimey, this tastes way better" yet there are plenty who have one vape and then won't smoke because vape tastes so much better.

What i do wonder is if all these vapers, if vaping is banned, will they go back to smoking for the nicotine fix? And that would be probably the biggest backwards step.

Hotmad - I haven't read the whole thread ...

Clearly grin

Here's the thing, for all of you who think the vapers should be sent outside - where are they going to go? They'll end up standing with the smokers - but they don't smoke! Why, having stopped smoking, should they be sent somewhere they have to breathe second hand smoke? Not to mention the risk of relapse, being around smokers all the time.

expatinscotland Mon 03-Mar-14 18:36:29

Mine looks like a pen. I don't use it except in a situation on which I would smoke, but it doesn't bother me when and where others do it.

Cigarettesandsmirnoff Mon 03-Mar-14 18:37:25

But e-cigs are about as harmful as a cup of coffee

We don't know that yet.

My dgm vapour cig used to smell of tobacco till I got her on menthol flavour. I'm currently on cherry menthol so tastes/smells like I'm smoking a tune! grin

I love my vapour cig, had it since Xmas Eve, but I wouldn't sit smoking it in the doctors.

If you can't sit for an appointment with out puffing on a ecig/fag you have isshooooos.

SylvanMuldoon Mon 03-Mar-14 18:41:52

YABU for the title of your post alone, vaping isn't smoking. Get a life.

DarlingGrace Mon 03-Mar-14 18:42:54

Darling - great. Would you rather it was a cigarette??

I'd kill for a fag grin

AfricanExport Mon 03-Mar-14 18:43:28

As a non smoker I think that controlling idiots should be banned in public places. Can we do that?

AfricanExport Mon 03-Mar-14 18:43:29

As a non smoker I think that controlling idiots should be banned in public places. Can we do that?

Cigarettesandsmirnoff Mon 03-Mar-14 18:43:37

I don't class myself as a non smoker. The last cigarette I had was before Xmas. I still inhale nicotine with a pretend fag and bow out smoke albeit fake smoke. And vapour oil disappeared everybody would be back on 'real' fags b the end of the week.

Makes me piss when people claim they no longer smoke while puffing on a vapour cig ha ha

AfricanExport Mon 03-Mar-14 18:44:29

Sorry. Didn't mean to double post.

Ledare Mon 03-Mar-14 18:45:05

I support the idea that controlling idiots should be banned from public places.

candycoatedwaterdrops Mon 03-Mar-14 18:45:51

"I bet you choose to seat yourself away from others if you can."

I lurk by the entrance wearing a scarf and waving hand gel if anyone dares to even look in my direction. grin

Call yourself what you like grin
I call myself a non smoker because I don't smoke.
I am a vaper. Ergo I vape.

Yes I think we can reasonably talk about etiquette, Dwerf, but it's a tough conversation to have when people are calling for it to be banned - doesn't make me feel very polite wink

Personally I avoid vaping around food in case it smells. Also if I'm somewhere very crowded. Lots of places I vape and nobody notices - 'stealth vaping' is a useful technique to learn. It's not necessary to produce Big Clouds (but it is nice grin).

BorcestshireBlue Mon 03-Mar-14 18:47:30

"Saying that vaping normalises smoking is like saying drinking a bottle of water normalises drinking a glass of vodka"

What it does do is normalise addiction. And the sweet flavouring are marked towards young people. This will never be a good a thing. E-cigs are not regulated and there is no evidence, as yet, to say they are safe.

The fact that people are walking round with them glued to their mouths like dummies suggests that they are probably more dependent on nicotine than they were before.

Ledare Mon 03-Mar-14 18:47:48

grin

So no sidling up to people like me (also comprised) and spitting in their faces about having the shits? Fair play.

Cigarettesandsmirnoff Mon 03-Mar-14 18:49:53

kate it's a tad 'emperors new clothes' if vapours disappeared off the shelves you'd be back on the B&H tomorrow , ergo your still a smoker grin

Ledare Mon 03-Mar-14 18:50:20

I am "glued" to my vape stick but that's because they are fundamentally different to cigarettes. They are smoked entirely differently.

I have saved almost £600 in five weeks and that money was essentially being burnt on the fire with my lungs and heart in it.

Cigarettesandsmirnoff Mon 03-Mar-14 18:51:00

Yes to borcest

Cigarettesandsmirnoff Mon 03-Mar-14 18:52:01

plenty grin

But they are not.
So I won't be back on the B&H.
And even if they are banned, I'll stockpile a lifetimes supply and freeze it so I can vape forever grin

Cigarettesandsmirnoff Mon 03-Mar-14 18:53:53

ledare we don't know the damage were doing to our lungs yet though? In 10,20,30 years we could start seeing a lot of new lung conditions associated with vaping.

CynicalandSmug Mon 03-Mar-14 18:53:54

Yabu and frankly a little bit mad.

Ledare Mon 03-Mar-14 18:54:06

But if young people want to look cool <snort> with an e-cig, all the liquids are available in 0% nicotine.

Nobody knows what flavour OR strength people are vaping.

expatinscotland Mon 03-Mar-14 18:54:27

Just charging up my vape stick. Think I'll go for mint juice tonight.

Cigarettesandsmirnoff Mon 03-Mar-14 18:54:32

kate grin

P.s you can't kid a kidder

I'm on gingerbread (sigh, bliss) grin

Cigarettes, you can call yourself what you like. I am not a smoker, I haven't smoked a cigarette for 5 months.

I am still a nicotine addict. I don't really care much about that though as the health risks are negligible.

Why would you find it funny if vaping was banned and millions of vapers were driven back to lit tobacco? I would find that devastatingly tragic for the vapers, whose lives were cut short and for everyone around them.

Cigarettesandsmirnoff Mon 03-Mar-14 18:56:03

expat I'm a menthol girl.

Oh I'm definitely a nicotine addict. But hey ho, it could be worse grin

expatinscotland Mon 03-Mar-14 18:57:01

Nice and soothing. I love the mint one best.

monicalewinski Mon 03-Mar-14 18:57:12

Borcestshire You can reduce the nicotine levels in the refills and go down to zero nicotine if you want. That's my plan long term, I've already gone down a nicotine strength and actually go days without now (was a moderate - heavy smoker for 23 years) then when the addiction has been addressed I'll deal with the habit.

I agree re the stupid 'gateway to smoking' argument as well (from upthread), and would like to know why controlling non smokers think I should be penned in with the smokers & 2nd hand smoke when I don't smoke?

And bollocks to the assertion by the OP that the e cig was 'stinking out the room' - what a load of nonsense.

Ledare Mon 03-Mar-14 18:57:19

Cocomel <sigh>

I have two batteries on charge and five in all. No going out for fags for me.

Puzzledandpissedoff Mon 03-Mar-14 18:59:17

Yep, they should be banned in public. e-cigs normalise smoking

Oh dear, more straw-clutching hmm

As has been said already, there are some for whom it's not about danger, but a strange and rather worrying need to control ...

Cigarettesandsmirnoff Mon 03-Mar-14 19:00:13

plenty where have I said ...

Why would you find it funny if vaping was banned and millions of vapers were driven back to lit tobacco? I would find that devastatingly tragic for the vapers, whose lives were cut short and for everyone around them

Please don't make thing up.

I don't like your tone smile

expatinscotland Mon 03-Mar-14 19:01:06

I have three vape sticks. Need to get over to the vape threads to learn about maybe upgrading my vape, I just use the cheapo ones from Amazon.

No stinky hands
No smelly clothes
My heart disease stats going down, down, down
My lung cancer rates doing likewise
I can run up flights of stairs and not think I'm going to die
Loadsa money to spend on shoes
Not enabling passive smoking
Not catching my death outside
My mother can now sleep at night wink
All good

HotDogHotDogHotDiggityDog Mon 03-Mar-14 19:02:32

The Trust I work for has banned all use of E-Cigs, even within the hospital grounds. You're not even allowed to hide.

The bastards angry

Ledare Mon 03-Mar-14 19:02:48

I was just about to say that expat. Come over. You would be very welcome.

ChocolateSnowflakes Mon 03-Mar-14 19:04:02

Of course YABU. They don't harm you. If e-cigs are banned then strong perfumes, coffee, and air fresheners in public places should be banned too.

Anniegetyourgun Mon 03-Mar-14 19:04:07

I don't smoke, I never have (don't have the lungs for it), and I loathe tobacco smoke, with the possible exception of freshly lit pipe tobacco in an open space. I don't have any problem with vapour whatever-you-call-'ems. Heaven knows how that woman allegedly stank out a waiting room with one - it must have been leaking like a sieve. Or perhaps her socks were on fire at the same time.

Cigarettesandsmirnoff Mon 03-Mar-14 19:04:11

expat the vapestick in tescos look good. I'm going to try one of those

expatinscotland Mon 03-Mar-14 19:05:10

No panic when you realise you are running out of baccy or fags. Just reach for the vape stick.

Cigarettesandsmirnoff Mon 03-Mar-14 19:05:34

annie grin

Yes to kate

In all seriousness, smokers observing vaping and having a go has directly influenced 8 people amongst my family and friends to try one (me included), like it and quit completely.
A workmate is doing half and half, still better for her and her young child than not at all.
If I had never seen a vape stick I would still be on 30 a day.

Cigarettes, come over to the thread, bet we can find you a cheaper and better alternative than Tesco smile

Puzzledandpissedoff Mon 03-Mar-14 19:16:07

Maybe the lady who "stank the waiting room out" was still using actual cigarettes as well as vaping? So what the OP thought was coming from the ecig was actually coming from her clothes?

Just a thought ... smile

lilola Mon 03-Mar-14 19:17:03

hotdog what they can't see, they can't know...vape in the toilet and breathe it down your top!

vape up your sleeve, hold your breath for 10 seconds and breathe out, no smoke at all

oakmouse Mon 03-Mar-14 19:19:27

YABU about e-cigs, this woman's must have been an exception. (Or else she had been chainsmoking the real thing and whipped out the other to get her through the wait at the surgery...)

MIL used to not be able to get down the road without lighting up and when she picked ds up he smelt of smoke afterwards. Now she has completely switched to ecigs and hardly even smokes those. We are so proud of her.

A major part of making the transition was the convenience of being able to sit in the warm and light up anywhere. It made up for that "deprived" feeling she had at first. We have never been bothered by her smoking ecigs in the house. Maybe some brands are more noxious than others?

JohnCusacksWife Mon 03-Mar-14 19:20:22

I think YABU to suggest that e-cigs should be banned from ALL public spaces. I can't think of a reason to ban them from social spaces like clubs, bars etc.

But I do think there are some places where I would think it odd behaviour - like a school, hospital, office etc - although I have to admit that that's not an entirely logical position. It just wouldn't seem appropriate.

BorcestshireBlue

What it does do is normalise addiction.
A bit like coffee then?

And the sweet flavouring are marked towards young people.
No they're not, they've been developed by the vaping community who realised they do better if they change flavours fairly frequently. I find the idea that adults don't like sweet things a bit bizarre.

This will never be a good a thing.
It's already a good thing. It looks like it's already the most successful way of getting people off smoking, especially long term, heavily addicted smokers.

E-cigs are not regulated
yes they are

and there is no evidence, as yet, to say they are safe.
There is mounting evidence that they are around 1000 times safer than smoking. 'We don't know everything about them' is not the same as 'we don't know anything about them'. It's true we don't yet have proper longitudinal studies (I'd be more than happy to be a guinea pig) but the constituent ingredients have all been around for a very long time, without causing problems. For many many people, as Cigarettes has pointed out, vaping is their best bet for staying off the fags. It's not vaping vs. nothing, it's vaping vs. smoking we need to look at. Given that smokers will in all likelihood die from smoking related diseases, this is worth thinking hard about.

Two good round-ups of current research here (create a free account if you want to access the full paper) and here.

The fact that people are walking round with them glued to their mouths like dummies suggests that they are probably more dependent on nicotine than they were before.
No it suggests that nicotine is absorbed in a very different way, you don't get the sharp nicotine hit you get from a fag, it's a lot more gradual. This has been suggested as a reason why lots of people find them easier to give up than fags - i.e. they're less addicted. I certainly find it easier to go without if I have to, than I did with the fags. It also possibly suggests that vapers are really fucking enjoying themselves smile

MildDrPepperAddiction Mon 03-Mar-14 19:22:53

Yanbu. They should be treated the same. If you want to smoke an ecig then go to a designated smoking area. They do smell and people are so fucking cheeky about where they smoke them.

Cigarettes, maybe I misinterpreted this post ...

And vapour oil disappeared everybody would be back on 'real' fags b the end of the week.

Makes me piss when people claim they no longer smoke while puffing on a vapour cig ha ha

If you wouldn't find it funny if vaping was banned and everyone went back to fags then I'm glad.

magimedi Mon 03-Mar-14 19:55:21

I smoked for nearly 40 years.

I have given up for nearly 18 months <not a stealth boast>

I have now reduced my nicotine level from 18 to 6 & am en route to going down to zero.

I can now swim 1K without any issue & feel so much better than when I smoked.

I would bore you all forever if I listed all my other failed attempts to quit smoking (none of which lasted for more than 6 months - at best).

Long livwe vaping & anyone who is against it is a non smoker (usually) who is being VV Unreasonable.

magimedi Mon 03-Mar-14 19:57:54

live obv.

And anyone who is not a nicotine addict - which I am - and argues that vaping should be stopped knows nothing about the horrors of addiction should have a bit more sympathy.

I'd like to hear your reaction if I said I was a heroin addict .

Well done magi that's excellent!

Addiction gets lots of sympathy as long as you're miserable. You're supposed to be a saaaad nicotine addict, shuffling to the GP for a prescription for crappy, sad, medicalised NRT which won't work (but it'll be your fault when it doesn't) wink

The original argument was that people shouldn't smoke indoors as it harmed other people. Not that this was likely unless you were in a phone booth with 8 smokers, but ok it was a reason of sorts.

Then they said "oh it's not fair that you are smoking outside as we have to walk outside sometimes"

So now we're seeing that "but we didn't want you to be able to enjoy smoking full stop".

I think it's rather sad.

PlentyOfPubeGardens I loved the link

Cigarettesandsmirnoff Mon 03-Mar-14 20:13:24

plenty crossed wires.

I certainly wouldn't find it funny at all. I gave up smoking while pregnant with dd but started soon after and just could not stop.

I just find it amusing that people claim to be non smokers (now vapours) yet if vapour fags were with drawn people would be legging it to the shops for there old fashioned fags. But that's just my take on it - as a vaper lover myself.

ginmakesitallok Mon 03-Mar-14 20:13:58

Magi, if you were a heroin addict you'd be completely ostracised, stigmatised, probably lose your job and certainly wouldn't be welcome to take your methadone openly in a public place.

But I agree that there seems to be a general feeling that stopping smoking should be a miserable experience and that there is a certain amount of suffering you need to go through as penance for your smoking sins.

ThisSummerBetterBeDarnGood Mon 03-Mar-14 20:14:25

yes - or ban it within a certain radius of other people. I dread summer as i cant open my windows due to neighbours smoke.

ginmakesitallok Mon 03-Mar-14 20:16:12

Cigarettes, I haven't had a cigarette in over 9 months. I am currently not a smoker. In the future I may become a smoker again, as may any non smoker. What might happen in the future does not negate my current status.

BorcestshireBlue Mon 03-Mar-14 20:19:56

Plentyof - I stopped reading when you likened nicotine addiction to coffee - utter rubbish.

ginmakesitallok Mon 03-Mar-14 20:30:10

Borcester, why utter rubbish?

Cigarettesandsmirnoff Mon 03-Mar-14 20:30:18

Right ok gin what ver floats your boat.

Allergictoironing Mon 03-Mar-14 20:30:36

I am an EX smoker, I now vape. I can truthfully say I no longer smoke because I don't inhale combustion products which are commonly called "smoke". I do inhale a substance containing nicotine - same stuff, same safe quality as that used in traditional NRTs. The other ingredients are those used in many foods, and the carrier used for inhalers like nicotine inhalers. All the ingredients bar the flavourings are pharmaceutical grade, and the flavourings are food grade.

My GP was very encouraging when I saw him recently; ideally he wants me to try to slowly cut down the nicotine content but he was very happy that I was vaping instead of smoking, and agrees that e-cigarettes seem to be the best method to date to at least reduce or control an addiction that he understands is one of the hardest to quit (MUCH harder than alcohol in his opinion).

I suppose my vape stick could be described as looking like a cigarette, assuming that cigarettes were about twice the length they actually are, much thicker, weigh about 3-4 times what they actually do, have a purple (or yellow, or green) clear plastic end, and are shiny anodised rainbow in colour. Oh, and don't glow on the end at all. But it IS roughly cylindrical in shape and is held in my hand, so that makes it the same I suppose.

My sister is very strongly opposed to smoking, won't have it near her & the smell makes her ill. But she's happy for me to vape in her house, including the tobacco flavour I sometimes use. She says she can't smell that one, but sometimes she gets a faint whiff of fruit from some of the others.

There hasn't been a cigarette in the house for 3 weeks now but when I walked into my spare bedroom the other day, which I have never smoked in, I could smell the old smoke on the curtains. So I'd assume that the person in the waiting room was someone who still smokes as well as vapes, and the OP was smelling the smoke on her clothing & in her hair.

Cigarettesandsmirnoff Mon 03-Mar-14 20:35:40

I don't know why some vapours are obsessed with trying to convince themselves people they are no longer smokers.

You inhale nicotine , you blow out steam/oil ,you hold it in between your fingers , your tricking your mind your smoking, but oh no! I don't smoke, no sireeee!

I feel sad for you sad

Cigarettesandsmirnoff Mon 03-Mar-14 20:37:51

All the ingredients bar the flavourings are pharmaceutical grade, and the flavourings are food grade

What utter bullshit! You know that for a fact do you ? grin

Why is it rubbish, Borcestshire?

Cigarettes, yes crossed wires smile

Allergictoironing Mon 03-Mar-14 20:38:29

Borcest , gin was referring to a more socially acceptable addiction i.e. coffee. I have known people who cannot function without coffee, and they get physical withdrawal symptoms if they have to go without it. So yes she was likening 2 similar things, both physical addictions (caffeine and nicotine).

Cigarettes I am not addicted to smoking, I am addicted to nicotine and have a hand to mouth habit. If vaping were banned then yes I'd probably end up smoking again and hate every second of it because of the combined nicotine addiction tied in with the habit, not because I am addicted to the thousands of other dangerous substances that I would be stuck with when feeding the nicotine addiction.

ginmakesitallok Mon 03-Mar-14 20:42:49

Cigarettes, no need to feel sorry for me. I don't stink any more, I have lots more money in my pocket, and my chances of dying from a smoking related disease is much reduced.

If you still smoke you smell bad, pay more for your habit than I do and have a 50% chance of dying from a smoking related disease. Whatever floats your boat.

Allergictoironing Mon 03-Mar-14 20:43:12

Oh and I don't hold my vape stick between my fingers, it's too bulky & heavy for that.

"You know that for a fact do you ?". Apart from me knowing people who are in the business of manufacturing e-liquids, who have independent testers of all their ingredients into the factory and the liquids they produce? But you may as well say the same thing about ANYTHING you buy that's supposed to be safe or of a particular standard.

CorusKate Mon 03-Mar-14 21:04:03

If you can't sit for an appointment with out puffing on a ecig/fag you have isshooooos.

You do know this was a doctors' surgery, right, Cigarettes? Most people sitting in a waiting room have some sort of isshooooo; that's why they're stuck in a grotty waiting room rather than somewhere nicer grin

morethanpotatoprints Mon 03-Mar-14 21:07:46

YABU

No harm to you at all.

I can't make you out cigarettes. Why would you feel sad for someone who has swapped from something that in all likelihood will kill them to something that in all likelihood is harmless?

If you can't sit for an appointment with out puffing on a ecig/fag

Can they not wait a short while to they get out?

Both completely missing the point. Why should they wait? It would make as much or as little sense to say "why must they use an e-cig outside. Why can't they wait until they get inside"

The only reason is that you have a hangup about it and that's between you and your therapist.

NeedsAsockamnesty Mon 03-Mar-14 21:43:44

YABU

And what a lot of bollocks it is as well.

Cigarettesandsmirnoff Mon 03-Mar-14 21:50:02

gin your preaching to the converted. If you'd bothered to read my earlier posts you will see I also vape.

AND you don't know if you will die from a vapour related disease as they are NOT regulated properly and inhaling oil in to our lungs can not be healthy in the long run.

You still inhale nicotine and you still inhale foreign substances in to your body.

Years ago smoking was encouraged in hospital to settle nerves and relaxation so your GP recommendation is a bit meh!

plenty you can not say that it's harmless. There has not been enough testing or regulations put in place. I vape myself but it's laughable when people claim to be a non smoker or that they are healthy!

onlyjoking Mon 03-Mar-14 21:51:52

I've smoked for 40 years, I now vape and wouldn't go back to cigarettes.

Cigarettesandsmirnoff Mon 03-Mar-14 21:52:54

back it's still considered anti-social. That's why they getting banned in public places/transport

Cigarettesandsmirnoff Mon 03-Mar-14 21:54:55

only I feel the same. I would like to think I wouldn't either, but you don't know. I gave up for a year while pregnant and started again soon after dd was born. My family couldn't believe it. But at the end of the day, I enjoyed it too much.

Hopasholic Mon 03-Mar-14 22:14:04

Do yo know what pisses me off, it's ALWAYS the bloody 'never smoked a fag in my life' brigade who want to know, what's in it? How much does it cost you? Do you still smoke then? Where do you buy it? How do you charge it? How long does it last? Feck off! I have no problem giving smokers the ins and outs but I'm sick of getting the third degree from people who've never so much as had a silk cut.

Cigarettesandsmirnoff it's only anti-social in that it makes some people unhappy. We need to look at why it makes them unhappy and get them help.

I don't use them, but I'm thinking of starting so I can sit in my GPs waiting room or stand at bus stops annoying the hell out of the anti-smoking loons.

grin

sykadelic15 Tue 04-Mar-14 04:03:16

E-cigarettes have nicotine in them. There has not been enough study in the effects of the mist/vapour on people. They're also highly addictive.

New York has voted to ban them from public places, just like regular cigarettes. I'm okay with that.

NoodleOodle Tue 04-Mar-14 04:31:41

Was it me, and did you start coughing ridiculously?

I would ban strong perfume over ecigs any day. As someone has already said, strong perfume gives me a headache. How do some people not realise how strongly they smell, do their friends, family, companions not ever mention how cloying it is to try to breathe next to someone smelly strogly of perfume?

Vape vapour doesn't affect me, therefore I don't object; strong perfume can trigger a painful migraine I wish my objections held some sway.

I think as an aid to stopping smoking E Cigs are brilliant.

I am one of the 'never smoked' brigade, but frustratingly have lived/mixed with smokers and my middle DD is using one at the moment. She is only 18 and I'm made up she isn't smoking, but now DD isn't stinking my house out, my dog (or rather me) is going to get more grief over the mess she makes.

I think it helps as a means to stopping E Vaping if the usage is banned in some places, it isn't a co-incidence that the tobacco companies have shares, or control the better E cig products.

It's the next legal addiction.

My DD had to attend the hospital last night and I told her to Vape in the toilet, she was in pain, it helped her not to get more stressed. The vapour doesn't smell and is gone as soon as she left the toilet.

When you warn your teen that if they smoke it will take their income, they will be addicted etc, they now have an easy answer and the research isn't there yet, to know what the effect in health is for the individual and we all worry about the health of our children.

My eldest DD is going to try an E Cig because they are having problems ttc and need a lifestyle clean up.

I think Men look ridiculous puffing on an E Cig (i like Alpha/Macho Men) but that's a different issue (for me, less Eye Candy).

I don't think that, if possible you should Vape everywhere, but I don't think that you should eat smelly crisps etc everywhere either.

Unfortunately we encounter lots of people every day who have different standards to ourselves, the weathers been warmer, here Up North and I'm already noticing that people hygiene standards could be better.

But the latest research shows that a lot of the Cancers we are suffering from is because of many lifestyle factors including diet, so really, it's the eating of processed foods that should be banned in Surgery's, Hospitals etc.

Unless there is a public health reason, with research findings to back it up, nothing should be banned.

If bans exist for anti social reasons then E Cigs would be way down the list and people would be hosed down and sprayed with anti perspiration on arrival.

Because contary to what you believe, you do smell if you don't wash, but that is a different thread that is done to death.

Yes that was long, but I can't sleep, so I don't care.

ginmakesitallok Tue 04-Mar-14 07:10:58

There is lots of evidence that inhaling oil is very bad for you, luckily there is no oil in e liquid.

crazykat Tue 04-Mar-14 07:21:27

My DH has one and it does have a smell. It smells nothing like a cigarette an he has the tobacco flavour one. It smells for a split second and unless we were sat in a box together it wouldn't have chance to be overpowering. Unlike the perfume or aftershave of some people I've met which smell far worse.

You can't ban something just because you don't like the smell. I can't stand heavy floral perfume, it makes me feel sick and gives me a headache, but I can't stop people wearing it in public.

If everything that had an offensive odour to one person was banned in public then nothing would be allowed to have a scent including people which would be ridiculous and impossible to enforce.

sallymanda Tue 04-Mar-14 07:22:50

I'm with the posters who said that those who object to e-vaping are miffed because their desire to control is curtailed because there is no reason to ban e-cigs.

They're gutted that they can't control others. Their one reason to feel smug and superior has abated. If people really cared about the health of others. they'd be absolutely delighted that the person had started 'vaping' instead of smoking.

I dare say they'll try to ban them on account of some nonsense about it leading to smoking.

Well perhaps eating a snickers bar everyday leads to nude bathing but we don't ban things because they possibly might lead to something else-that would be absurd.

Allergictoironing Tue 04-Mar-14 07:27:05

Thank you for that supportive post Birdsgottafly - it really means a lot when non- and never- smokers show they understand vaping.

There's one statement I would correct you on though - it isn't a co-incidence that the tobacco companies have shares, or control the better E cig products. The tobacco companies may produce the best known, most advertised brands of e-cigarette but in my opinion (and apparently the view of most long term vapers) their products are definitely NOT "better".

Tobacco companies mostly make cigalike products, the ones the same size, shape and even usually colouring of real cigarettes, which have been designed to mimic cigarettes as closely as possible. They also happen to be the most expensive way of vaping, as they need to use special disposable cartridges. Most long term vapers tend to use a battery and "tank" system, where they can refill the tank with bought fluids or even those they have blended themselves. Not only is this cheaper for the vaper, but much greener as they aren't throwing away the cartridge every day or so; the vaping experience is also much better with a battery and tank system. It may surprise no-one to hear that tobacco companies are pushing hard for controls that will ban all vaping products except cigalike ones (that they make).

Cigarettes - plenty you can not say that it's harmless.

No, that's why I carefully said, 'in all likelihood is harmless' (as opposed to continuing smoking which would 'in all likelihood' kill me).

You can't say anything is harmless, all you can do is look for evidence of harm and either find it or not find it. There is a growing pile of studies, all finding no evidence of harm. We don't have longitudinal studies (although we do for constituent ingredients) - we will never get longitudinal studies unless lots of people use them for a long time.

Good overviews of research to date can be found here and here (you can access the full text for free if you create an account).

I doubt you will read either of these though because this - ... and inhaling oil in to our lungs can not be healthy in the long run. - tells me that you haven't bothered to find out the first thing about ecigs! I'm amazed you would inhale something without having a clue what's in it grin

MidniteScribbler Tue 04-Mar-14 09:41:50

I still think there's a time and place for them. I went in to a business on the weekend and the staff member had one hanging out of their mouth. It looked pretty awful, but it would have looked just as bad if they were chewing gum, or sucking on a pencil while they were serving me.

Orlea Tue 04-Mar-14 10:22:51

A bit of a tangent, but do people really take up ecigs if they aren't ex-smokers or trying to give up? I thought it was just people who had already got addicted to nicotine who used them (like DH) as they don't smell of smoke, so are therefore less unacceptable...

DH only uses his indoors at home. Still goes outside with the smokers at work, in restaurants, goes without for 2-3hrs in cinemas etc, as he doesn't want to upset anyone or deal with the hassle of explaining that it's not a cigarette or a new type of bong, the 'smoke' is just scented water vapour etc etc... He mixes his own fluid and had to pick the one flavour (vanilla) that I really don't like, sod's law wink I've noticed a surprising number of people using them in the last few months but I've never come across one that smells anything like a real cigarette...

MajorGrinch Tue 04-Mar-14 10:28:31

I'd rather people were banned from public places TBH - that'd sort all the problems out!

It's fast becoming clear that, despite what people say, it's not about the smell, health risks, cost etc. of smoking - it's about the fact that someone is doing something they enjoy in public and miserable buggers don't like it!!

Cigarettesandsmirnoff Tue 04-Mar-14 11:12:50

plenty stop trying to kid yourself. I can find plenty of links with negatives about e-cigs too!

Are you sure there is no oil in e-cigs? Or are you being pedantic .... Maybe I should have said....

Acetaldehyde (MS)
Benzene (SS)
Cadmium (MS)
Formaldehyde (MS,SS)
Isoprene (SS)
Lead (MS)
Nickel (MS)
Nicotine (MS, SS)
N-Nitrosonornicotine (MS, SS)
Toluene (MS, SS)

^^^^^^ I'll add on to that, anti-freeze, tin, silver ect... All these CAN NOT be healthy to our lungs!

Do you use the same vape? Have you always used the same vape ? Did you meticulously research every chemical they state was present n that vape ? Because I'm amazed that you think you do and it healthy grin

How can you be sure? They are NOT regulated so consumers do not know if what's in them is even what they say is, never mind the long term risks! Look at the horse meat scandal of a rep company. They could be substituting for a cheaper alternative , which is dam well scary.

Delusional a best plenty smile

Do not kid my self I'm being healthy by vaping, I purely do it as I don't want the smoke fumes on my clothes or near dd..

Allergictoironing Tue 04-Mar-14 11:25:21

Plenty don't bother to respond to Cigarettesandsmirnoff - whatever any of us say she/he is clearly never going to believe anything that suggests that e-cigs are in any way less harmful than real cigs. She/he will drag up all and any anti type scare stories and quote these ad nauseum, without supplying links which could show either the scaremongering nature of the "research" (more likely conjecture), or anything that might indicate that e-cigas aren't actually going to wipe out the entire population of the known world.
In return, she/he will automatically cry "bullshit" to anything we may say, again without any evidence to refute our statements even when we have provided links.

ComposHat Tue 04-Mar-14 11:38:59

I would like to see e-cigs allowed everywhere as an incentive to encourage smokers to switch. I would rather sit in a pub with 10 people chugging away on an e cig than having to walk the gauntlet of smokers hanging around the doors.

Cigarettesandsmirnoff Tue 04-Mar-14 11:43:28

grin aller I can't be arsed linking up but you know it will be easy for me to find.

Cigarettesandsmirnoff Tue 04-Mar-14 11:44:34

Ostrich - head in sand.

QueenStromba Tue 04-Mar-14 11:56:42

Where are you getting the idea that
Acetaldehyde (MS)
Benzene (SS)
Cadmium (MS)
Formaldehyde (MS,SS)
Isoprene (SS)
Lead (MS)
Nickel (MS)
Nicotine (MS, SS)
N-Nitrosonornicotine (MS, SS)
Toluene (MS, SS)

QueenStromba Tue 04-Mar-14 11:58:28

Accidentally posted there. Where are you getting the idea that any of those things other than nicotine are in e liquid? My e liquid has nicotine, propylene glycol, glycerine and food grade flavouring.

Cigarettesandsmirnoff Tue 04-Mar-14 12:17:11

https://www.tobacco.ucsf.edu/10-chemicals-identified-so-far-e-cig-vapor-are-california-prop-65-list-carcinogens-and-reproductive

Clearly can't do links - sorry.

I love my E-cig. It's a better alternative , but I'm under no illusions that it's a safer option. Our lungs were made for oxygen only, anything else will be a poison and will eventually do harm .

Allergictoironing Tue 04-Mar-14 12:17:17

Ah but Queen - you can't have seen the bit of research that I saw that said that in some circumstances it's possibly for virtually undetectable (in spectroscopic terms) amounts of certain metals to get into the fluids from the solder on some types of atomisers. Of course that research also pointed out that these amounts are miniscule fractions of the amounts of the same types of substances you get from:
Eating food cooked in any form of metal container
Eating food wrapped in foil while still hot
Drinking from a metal container
Eating using worn implements like forks or spoons, and many new items of cutlery
Eating food that has been cut up using most metal kitchen knives
Breathing in the air in any large population centre e.g. any city in the UK and many towns

But that wouldn't matter to Cigarettesandsmirnoff, because e-cigs are intrinsically Bad And Evil

Queen, I think it's probably from that discredited 2009 study that gets trotted out with tedious regularity. Traces of a few nasties were found in a whole 2 cig-alike samples tested. Lots of scientists have since pointed out that the levels of these nasties were similar to what is found in medicinal NRT and far lower than is permitted in general work environments - i.e. not present in sufficient quantity to be a hazard to health.

Still, it's a lovely context-free list of non-oil-based chemical names. Look at all those big words! not sure what nicotine is doing on that list though, it's kind of the whole point of the things.

This is very good on toxicology and contaminants. Like the other links I have provided, it's a review of lots of research studies. I'm pretty sure the 2009 study is included.

QueenStromba Tue 04-Mar-14 12:37:16

I've had a look at the journal articles that were cited in Cigarettes' link. The first one found levels of toxicants in an ecig to be pretty much the same as a nicorette inhalor. The second one found increased levels of acetone, acetic acid, formaldehyde and acetaldehyde in the air from an 8m cubed room after vaping but said that the aldehydes could have been naturally produced by the person vaping.

Sounds about right grin

QueenStromba Tue 04-Mar-14 12:42:21

Although I just left the room and came back in. It smells of cookies in here. Oh the humanity!

I just looked and the review I linked to covers the two studies from Cigarettes' link and the 2009 (actually it was 2008) study, along with 51 other sources.

Cigarettesandsmirnoff Tue 04-Mar-14 13:03:00

I don't think E-cigs are evil and bad . I use one myself.

I just think it's very weird that grown adults refuse to except that E-cigs are anything but healthy ! Bizzare .

It wasn't so long ago that cigarettes were considered healthy, or that the world was flat and you could fall of the edge .

Ignorance is bliss hey!

www.fda.gov/newsevents/publichealthfocus/ucm172906.htm

This is from Jan 14.

TheZeeTeam Tue 04-Mar-14 13:07:35

NYC are banning e-cigs in their bars and restaurants. Our nearest theme park doesn't allow ECigs to be smoked anywhere except for the smoking zones. It's only a matter of time, I'm afraid!

QueenStromba Tue 04-Mar-14 13:11:31

We're not arguing that it's healthy. You'd be hard pressed to find anything that doesn't affect health negatively in some way. What we are saying is that it is ~1000 times safer than cigarettes and a hell of a lot more effective than any other nicotine delivery device for giving up smoking.

There isn't any research on that page Cigarettes, just the FDA running round like headless chickens going we don't know anything about them!

Which is clearly BS.

Allergictoironing Tue 04-Mar-14 13:23:41

The problem is that the more people panic about the possible issues that may be found with e-cigs if we look hard enough, and the more outcry there is about them, the more people will be put off or even prevented from changing to e-cigs from real cigs. Even the most pessimistic reports on e-cigs state they are approximately 1000x safer than real cigarettes - so why are they being regulated more strictly than real cigarettes, and liquid needs to be packaged more securely than substances like bleach?

There are very few (if any) things that can be considered 100% safe at any dose or intake level. Over indulging in many vegetables can be highly damaging to health, without even considering substances they may pick up through fertilisation, transport or packaging - so where is the outcry against them?

Standard drinking water, whether bottled or tap, contains traces of carcinogenic elements including arsenic, cadmium, lead, selenium and thallium. There are permitted levels of all of these, because it's recognised that they will always be present. Shall we campaign against water, and say how bad THAT is for health?

QueenStromba Tue 04-Mar-14 13:28:13

We should be campaigning against the very dangerous dihydrogen monoxide that is present in all drinking water.

Well said Allergic. There are rather a lot of lives at stake here, lives we know will be cut short if people continue smoking.

Cigarettesandsmirnoff Tue 04-Mar-14 13:44:26

The fact still remains that these are unregulated. They could put anything in them. I've managed to stop my granny buying them of the car boot and to get them from the same shop I do.

In 20 years time, if you were deathly ill and it was contributed to the e-cig. Who would you be more angry at? Yourself for having blind faith in something that could be knocked up in a shed or the vapour company's miracle stop smoking aid (snake oil)?

Of course there will be pro E-cig links, it's probably made the tobacco industry them selves cashing in. If they are that safe would you let your child inhale one ? Even a 0%nicotine one?

Cigarettesandsmirnoff Tue 04-Mar-14 13:46:02

plenty you sound rather hysterical and cultish.

hmmconfused

Maybe you've just run out of arguments.

Allergictoironing Tue 04-Mar-14 14:00:55

Cigarettes YOU sound almost hysterical. To be honest the amount I was smoking I probably wouldn't have been alive in another 20 years if I'd carried on. Now at least I've got a much better chance of surviving (about 1000 times better according to current research) - I'd rather take that chance than the no chance I would have had.

You are contributing to the "fear of the unknown" culture which is trying to BAN e-cigs - do you really think that emphasising all the possible things that might be found is more important than trying to help people quit doing something that is virtually guaranteed to kill them? NOTHING can be proven to be 100% safe - as I said above, not even the water we all drink.

We cannot regulate against the unknown just in case there might be something we haven't discovered yet, otherwise virtually all the current medicines used to save lives would never have been approved for use. What we can do is try to encourage people to make a change that is likely to be better for them in the long run though only 99.9% likely, but is definitely not worse. The more you shout that there may be a possibility of harm, the more chance none of us will have that option going forwards.

None of this research is coming from the tobacco industry. They're in favour of stricter regulation (such as what's going through with the TPD at the moment) because it would ban pretty much everything except for their shitty useless cig-alikes which comprise approx 2% of the current market.

Cigarettesandsmirnoff Tue 04-Mar-14 14:55:18

plenty are you sure about that...

http://blogs.wsj.com/corporate-intelligence/2014/02/17/bat-tweaks-a-term-to-promote-e-cigarettes-on-tv/

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/02/17/us-britain-bat-advert-idUKBREA1G12W20140217

Of course they need stricter regulations plenty Jesus you could be smoking bleach and not know it!

Not a hysterical just a realist.

Your last paragraph aller is beyond ridiculous.

Allergictoironing Tue 04-Mar-14 15:09:39

Please tell us why it is ridiculous to state that it is impossible to regulate against the unknown (without an out and out ban of course)?

The regulations being requested by the tobacco industry aren't those controlling the content of the liquid, they are those to control the type of delivery system. Specifically they are campaigning for allowing those delivery systems that are the ones currently being developed by the tobacco industry - the ones that LOOK like real cigarettes, and restricting the possibility of using other delivery systems - the ones that don't look like cigarettes.

It may be incidental that the highest profit margins are available on the cigalike e-cigs (the kind the tobacco industry are lobbying for).

Cigarettesandsmirnoff so.... do you have a proposal?

Yes, pretty sure, thanks. They'll run those ads while they can but have no reason to fear regulation at all. It will entirely wipe out the competition because only big tobacco have the funds to comply with what is proposed. When their shitty overpriced cig-alikes fail to keep people off fags well, heyho, they'll just go back to fags again, also supplied by them. Win-win!

Jesus you could be smoking bleach and not know it!

Not a hysterical just a realist.

grin Right, I'm going to type this next bit slowly ... ecigs are regulated. Just like any other consumer product for sale in the EU, they have to comply with loads of regulations already. As it happens, I agree that some additional, proportionate regulation, specific to ecigs, would be a good idea. If you go here and scroll down to point 8, there are some good suggestions for regulation which would make ecigs even safer without destroying the industry and driving millions of vapers back onto fags.

Smilesandpiles Tue 04-Mar-14 16:00:38

If it's so healthy and so acceptable, why am I seeing an increase in signs telling people NOT to use E-cigs?

I don't give toss if you think it's healthy or not, it's just that you are looking like you are smoking to others including children and are not only giving the impression that smoking is normal but that the rules of smoking in enclosed spaces doesn't apply to you.

That is the biggest issue I have with them (and everyone I've seen smoking or vaping just looks like aother pillock jumping on the bandwagon)

We cannot regulate against the unknown just in case there might be something we haven't discovered yet, otherwise virtually all the current medicines used to save lives would never have been approved for use. What we can do is try to encourage people to make a change that is likely to be better for them in the long run though only 99.9% likely, but is definitely not worse. The more you shout that there may be a possibility of harm, the more chance none of us will have that option going forwards.

YY allergic, it's what Matt Ridley was talking about, 'a counterproductive application of the precautionary principle'.

awaywego1 Tue 04-Mar-14 16:10:04

I'm an electronic cigarette user and its been great for me however I would be a bit hmm at someone vaping in a surgery. I think there's a time and a place for it and a drs waiting room isn't it.

Allergictoironing Tue 04-Mar-14 16:10:16

Smiles the reason why the laws on smoking in enclosed spaces don't apply to vaping is because e-cigarettes do not create smoke just a small amount of vapour, hence why it's called vaping. The reason laws were passed to prevent smoking in enclosed public spaces was to prevent passive smoking, the inhalation of combustion products caused by smoking. As there is no combustion taking place, people cannot inhale any combustion products.

The increase in signs asking people to not vape are brought on by other customers objecting to vaping on the grounds of it looking like smoking, or because they believe non-factual gossip about what e-cigs emit. Or because they feel that people should be made to suffer because they have a nicotine addiction. There are no legal reasons for these signs and no scientific reasons, purely prejudice.

If it's so healthy and so acceptable, why am I seeing an increase in signs telling people NOT to use E-cigs?

Probably because lots of people like to control what other people do for no very good reason. Occasionally someone will write to a company and ask why they have banned it. The answer is usually your objection, that it 'looks like smoking'. The fact that it doesn't generally look anything like smoking has already been covered over the first few pages of the thread.

I don't really care about looking like a pillock. Having fully functioning lungs and not having to go round smelling really bad and apologising for breathing is compensation enough for me smile

Smilesandpiles Tue 04-Mar-14 16:15:40

Or you could just quit.

Fucking hell you're a genius! If only I'd thought of that before hmm

Troglodad Tue 04-Mar-14 16:19:49

There is no reason to "ban" ecigs beyond a bloody-minded intrusive controlling nature.

If something does not harm you or anyone else but the individual or ruin the peace and happiness of other people, you have no reason to demand its ban.

Personally, I think a lot of people have perfume that stinks horribly like a cloud of noxious, cloying chemicals. Would it be reasonable of me to suggest it be banned, or should we all just exercise a normal level of tolerance?

TillyTellTale Tue 04-Mar-14 16:20:34

I see absolutely no reason why people shouldn't use an e-cig indoors, and I'd far rather they vaped indoors than smoked outside.

And I'm a lifelong non-smoker.

Smilesandpiles They have quit cigarettes, those cancerous objects that harm you and "others around you". They may, or may not, be planning to quit nicotine altogether, but that is unimportant.

QueenStromba Tue 04-Mar-14 16:21:40

You should patent that smiles. You could even apply it to other things like junk food, alcohol, drugs and coffee - you'll be minted in no time.

Cigarettesandsmirnoff Tue 04-Mar-14 16:22:24

plenty you can type as slow as you like, although I'm not sure what your trying to insinuate ? I'm not sure I like your tone....

Although I would rather the tobacco company's realised that smoking is becoming so anti social the next step was to introduce another way of keeping people hooked to a 'cleaner' way of smoking. I think you massively under estimate the tobacco company's.

I love my e-cig
But I'm not stupid enough to believe that they are risk free BUT it seems they are in your world of fairies ,purple unicorns and flying pigs

I'm out of this thread.

QueenStromba Tue 04-Mar-14 16:27:48

We're not saying they're entirely risk free - we're saying that they're 1000 times safer than the only alternative for a lot of smokers which is smoke until it kills you. I've given up smoking so many times using lozenges but I always ended back on the cigs, even after my granny died of lung cancer. This is the first time I've given up smoking that I've not missed it. I can categorically say that as long as vaping is an option I'll be a non-smoker.

Allergictoironing Tue 04-Mar-14 16:40:02

Though Cigarettes won't see this if she/he is "out of this thread", I doubt very much we have underestimated the tobacco companies. It has become pretty obvious that the latest round of legislation is designed to allow the tobacco companies to control the vaping market, in ways that will be discouraging to people trying to use vaping to quit smoking.

Who's saying they are risk free? You must have missed that entire paragraph I wrote about regulations. Maybe I should have typed it even slower grin

Puzzledandpissedoff Tue 04-Mar-14 16:49:21

We cannot regulate against the unknown just in case there might be something we haven't discovered yet

^^ This

As many have said, all too much of this is about a disturbing need to control / punish. Quite worrying, really ...

Troglodad Tue 04-Mar-14 16:55:50

Those signs are the exact equivalent of signs telling you not to wear blue shoes, eat sweets or wear anti-perspirant.

They are mental obtrusive control-freakery, and the only British thing to do in the face of such things is to defy them and tell people where to stick it.

mayorquimby Tue 04-Mar-14 17:03:07

"giving the impression that smoking is normal but that the rules of smoking in enclosed spaces doesn't apply to you"

Because they don't apply to people using ecigs

AmberLeaf Tue 04-Mar-14 18:59:40

There is no reason to "ban" ecigs beyond a bloody-minded intrusive controlling nature

/\ This.

OP YABU.

I find all this pearl clutching over vaping/e cigs/shisha pens etc pathetic TBH. It makes some people look incredibly thick too. I think they have forgotten why smoking in buildings/around others was banned.

Puzzledandpissedoff Tue 04-Mar-14 19:45:14

I can't help remembering this quotation:

"Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy"

H.L. Mencken 1916

magimedi Tue 04-Mar-14 19:52:17

I keep on coming back to read this thread & have resisted posting - so far.

I have had wine

FFS - I am now vaping & I feel so much healthier.

I can walk from the seafront up to Beachy Head - 600 feet or thereabouts without gasping & spluttering.

I can now swim 1K (40 lengths) with one break & no gasping.

I could not do this 18 months ago when I was still smoking 20 roll ups a day.

I am so much healthier & my lung function has increased & I sleep better, have lost weight and am feeling so much better & so much less guilty now I don't inhale tar & carcinogens daily.

What's the fucking argument?

It's a win/win for me.

FloozeyLoozey Tue 04-Mar-14 19:52:32

I'd like babies and toddlers banned from buses. They're stinky, annoying and very loud. They offend my eyes, ears and nostrils.

Allergictoironing Tue 04-Mar-14 20:09:38

(waves at magi) Is that everyone from the Nest of Vapers now? wine is good. Maybe we should as MN to give us a smily for vaping?

MyPreciousRing Tue 04-Mar-14 20:24:55

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Joyfularmy Tue 04-Mar-14 20:33:52

Having fully functioning lungs

here

Arf at all the wanna be scientist on here! grin

Ledare Tue 04-Mar-14 20:52:05

Good point about smokers outside in the cold, wind, rain and snow.

I think some people like the fact that smokers are more likely to get ill this way.

TalisaMaegyr Tue 04-Mar-14 21:06:41

Has it already been mentioned that the reason the government want to find ridiculous reasons to ban ecigs, is because they don't make the huge amount of tax that they do from tobacco?

THAT'S why they want to 'regulate' it. To tax all us poor fuckers like they did when we smoked.

TalisaMaegyr Tue 04-Mar-14 21:07:36

Anyone that thinks the government are trying to save our health is deluded. IMO grin

Doctorbrownbear Tue 04-Mar-14 21:15:15

YABU. Next you will be forbidding people from wearing perfume for fear of offending your over sensitive nose. Give people break and good on them for giving up. I would say it was none of your business if they choose to smoke an e cig and where they choose to do it.

MyPreciousRing Wed 05-Mar-14 06:13:36

Excellent point Talisa. Is there anything we can do to counteract that?

TalisaMaegyr Wed 05-Mar-14 13:12:25

I think it's inevitable tbh Precious. They will find a way to punish us somehow! This whole smokescreen of wanting to regulate it is just biding their time until they can slam a load of tax on it to make up for what they're losing.

I sound paranoid don't I? wink

Allergictoironing Wed 05-Mar-14 13:44:56

A quick google brings up that the current cost to the NHS of smoking related diseases costs somewhere between £2-5bn. Current revenue from smoking related products nets the treasury in the region of £25bn.

With those figures, does anyone really think the government want everyone to quit smoking?

Ledare Wed 05-Mar-14 13:50:32

Not to mention that many smokers die young and won't be claiming a pension for 30 years and all the associated costs of NHS intervention for minor issues. And major, such as dementia. Absolutely in their interests for people to keep smoking.

KatnipEvergreen Wed 05-Mar-14 13:53:20

Ecigs are brilliant. DH (42) has given up for over a year now, having smoked since he was 15, and 20 fags a day.

YABU I have been vaping for 3 weeks now after 18 years of smoking. I can't believe how bad smokers/ing smell when I walk past them, and I used to smell like that blush So far I have dropped from 18mg to 11mg nicotine eliquid. And I intend to drop to 0 within a couple of months.

I do agree that it might be disconcerting for people to see vaping indoors, but as the health risks from secondhand vapour appear so far to be minimal I can't see why there is so much hand wringing.

LittleBearPad Wed 05-Mar-14 14:27:00

Having watched a grandmother flick fag ash onto her granddaughter this morning whilst holding her hand on a climbing frame; I do think real cigarettes should be banned from playgrounds. And to be honest I think the same rules should apply to e-cigarettes indoors as real fags. It's irrational but I do.

Allergictoironing Wed 05-Mar-14 14:29:34

But LittleBear WHY should the same rules be applied? The rules were there for a very good reason, to prevent passive smoking. There is no smoke produced by an e-cig so any rule treating them the same is just prejudice. You admit the feeling is irrational, so maybe you could rethink it?

LittleBearPad Wed 05-Mar-14 14:39:17

Why should I rethink it? I don't grab e-cigs out of people's hands in pubs. I just don't think they should be using them.

Allergictoironing Wed 05-Mar-14 14:59:26

Because embracing a prejudice that you know has no founding in fact is in general a bad mind-set to have? Damning people by very tenuous association is exceptionally unfair - just because most vapers are EX-smokers, and they are controlling their nicotine addiction using something that may or may not have a passing resemblance to a cigarette, they must be punished. Do you feel the same about fat people eating crisps & nuts in the pub, or tucking into a big meal?

It's irrational but I do.

So if you were asked to vote to ban e-cig would you do so or would you say "well my feeling is irrational so I better not".

The other big opponent of ecigs is the pharmaceutical industry. Last year for the first time more people used an ecig to quit smoking than used conventional NRT (gums, patches, inhalators etc.). Maybe there's a connection.

Oddly, maybe, I have heard nobody talking about taxing ecigs (beyond the usual vat) - just banning regulating them (out of existence).

LittleBearPad, if ecigs are banned indoors they don't just disappear. What happens is that vapers end up standing outside WITH SMOKERS. Not only are they then subject to SHS but they are at high risk of relapsing and starting smoking again. Your irrational prejudice has some very big health implications.

So, I thought I'd put a post together about what's happening in Europe and those who care can do about it ...

Where we're at now: Last week, the EU voted in favour of adopting the Tobacco Products Directive, including Article 18a (now renamed Article 20) which concerns ecigs. You can read the full text of Article 20 here. This legislation is likely to come into force in May of this year and member states will have up to 30 months to comply (but they don't have to wait that long!)

- No device on the market today could comply with this legislation except cig-alikes with disposable cartridges - the sort produced by big tobacco and big pharma.

- No e-liquid over 20mg/ml will be legal (18mg/ml in practice to allow for a margin of error) - an estimated one quarter of vapers use liquid above this strength and are likely to return to smoking if they cannot get it.

- The requirement for all new devices to be approved six months before coming to market will kill innovation in the EU. Currently it is usual to see new versions of products released every few weeks.

- The notification regime will be too expensive for small companies to comply with. 98% of the market is made up of SMEs. Meanwhile, big tobacco and pharma will have no problem absorbing the costs.

- Restrictions on sponsorship will mean it becomes very difficult for forums, youtube channels and other sources of information to survive.

What we can do: A European Citizen's Initiative has been launched by European Free Vaping Initiative. 'The European citizens' initiative allows one million EU citizens to participate directly in the development of EU policies, by calling on the European Commission to make a legislative proposal.'

This is not just another petition. Numerous hurdles have already been cleared to set it up and secure the necessary representatives in countries across the EU. The initiative now needs 1 million 'statements of support' (basically signatures) by 25th November and for at least 7 member states to meet their 'quota' - a set number of signatures based on population.

If the required number of signatures is reached, it means that vapers themselves will have the opportunity to present their case to the EU and propose sensible legislation for ecigs to replace article 20 of the TPD.

Who should sign:

- vapers
- smokers, because you might want to try switching one day
- friends and family of vapers
- friends and family of smokers
- people who don't like being around smokers or who worry about SHS
- people who care about harm reduction and saving lives

How to sign:

- Go here - www.efvi.eu/
- Scroll down to the big green rectangle and click it
- Fill in your info on the EU site

You will be asked to provide your full name, address and DOB. This is because this is not just another petition, it's an official EU process - they need to check you are a genuine EU citizen.

Please also ask your families, friends, colleagues etc. to sign and share on FB, Twitter or whatever else you do online.

Skivvywoman Wed 05-Mar-14 16:01:10

I smoke an e cig but I wouldn't do it in places were I couldn't smoke a real fag, buses,buildings,planes etc
But if I saw someone else doing it,I wouldn't be horrified as they are only breathing out vapour!

psynl Wed 05-Mar-14 16:32:15

yabu,

The act of banning vaping in public places needs to be implemented the day after cars/vans/lorries/trains central heating and power stations produce zero harmful emissions.
Until that day comes people have got their priorities wrong.

psynl Wed 05-Mar-14 16:46:25

I've just read the article 20 linked in the post above, amongst others this bit really annoyed me;
"any form of public or private contribution to any event, activity or individual with the aim or direct or indirect effect of promoting electronic cigarettes and refill containers and involving or taking place in several Member States or otherwise having cross-border effects is prohibited;”

A lot of people on this thread would find themselves breaking the law if that comes into force.

That particular bit sounds worse than it is, psynl. 'contribution' means payment, sponsorship or other incentive. There's a discussion about it in the comments on that page, about halfway down.

What it will mean though is that the vaping forums, youtube channels and some blogs will find it hard to continue as at the moment they fund themselves by carrying ecig ads or do reviews of kit sent for free from the ecig companies.

LittleBearPad Wed 05-Mar-14 20:52:23

No back I wouldn't ban e cigarettes nor have I said I would confused. if I have to explain my apparent 'prejudice' then it would be as follows. The smoking ban made smoking less obvious, at least where I live, apart from the two or three smokers gathered round the pub door, usually freezing or getting rained on or filling the beer garden with smoke because the pub had put up massive parasols with heaters, it made it less commonplace, perhaps some people gave up.

Ecigarettes make smoking more normal again, perhaps more socially acceptable - people can't ostensibly complain about second hand smoke and passive smoking. But it's still being addicted to nicotine, which isn't good for you.

And why does using ecigarettes mean you aren't a smoker anymore. The nicotine delivery method is simply different.

Ledare Wed 05-Mar-14 21:03:27

Same reason people using nicotine patches or chewing gum aren't smoking I suppose.

Allergictoironing Wed 05-Mar-14 21:14:19

LittleBear Smoking involves inhaling smoke, the combustion product of something (in this case tobacco) being burned. There is a chemical reaction caused by the act of combustion that releases some substances and changes others. Smoke itself contains a very large number of substances, scientists still don't know how many but estimates are currently at around 20,000 different things. This smoke going into the lungs causes build ups inside the body, and releases many different substances into the blood stream including a number of carcinogens.

Vaping however doesn't involve anything being burned, just heated until the liquid vaporises. The fluids are made from very well understood ingredients that are currently used in medicines or foods, and little or no chemical changes take place.

Look on it as the difference between standing right over a bonfire, and breathing in the steam from a bowl of hot water with maybe some eucalyptus in, like you do with a bunged up cold.

So no vapers do not "smoke" because they are not creating or taking in any smoke, just innocuous vapour.

Ledare Wed 05-Mar-14 21:18:39

Allergic, I read that post as if you had typed it very slowly grin

Being addicted to nicotine is actually fairly harmless. It's a bit of a bind but it won't kill you or cause any health problems for the vast majority of people.

Using an ecig means that you are not a smoker because there is no combustion and therefore no smoke, with its countless harmful chemicals.

I think it's actually OK to feel a bit 'ick' about other people's addictions (from heroin to coffee) however they are managed, but IMO that should never be allowed to get in the way of harm reduction. The price of saving lots of lives might be that you have to see people vaping.

I don't think vaping is normalising smoking at all - everything I have read, and my own experience of the countless smokers who approach me and ask about my kit and how to get started, indicates that ecigs normalise vaping and provide a valuable gateway out of smoking.

Gottleogear Wed 05-Mar-14 21:20:41

I have been following this thread with interest and can I just say that I think e cigs are brilliant smile

I had been smoking for years and had tried several times to give up, using patches, gum etc. But I still would have had the odd sneaky cig when having a drink. I was introduced to e cigs 2 months ago and haven't smoked since, even when having a drink. I have even stood outside with friends while they smoke but I'm starting to knock that on the head as the smell of real cigarettes is getting quite unpleasant!

As to the OP, I still wouldn't vape in a situation where I wouldn't have smoked. So YANBU with regards to the person at the Drs

No one has any idea of the long term affects of using e cigs and I will be cutting down the nicotine strength (on 11mg at the moment) gradually and will try to completely stop vaping in about 5 years but in the meantime if vaping is stopping me smoking then I am all for it smile

As an aside, the tobacconist that I buy my liquid from stated that the £5.99 bottle would cost £160 if the Government decided to tax the same as cigarettes. Not sure where he got that figure from but it does make you think!

Allergictoironing Wed 05-Mar-14 21:26:03

Gottle the average price of a pack of 20 cigarettes is £7.98 - of that £6.17 is tax so approximately 77% (figures from the Tobacco Manufacturers association). So though I think your tobacconist may have exaggerated a bit the price would certainly increase to over 4 times what it is now as a minimum.

Gottleogear Wed 05-Mar-14 21:32:46

Thanks for the breakdown Allergic, couldn't be bothered doing the figs, I am a lazy git. But you're right smile and vaping is still way cheaper then smoking.

CorusKate Wed 05-Mar-14 21:34:16

Allergic, maybe he was calculating it at 31p tax for each cigarette and working out the equivalent tax you'd pay for that - I don't know how much liquid is in one of the bottles, but 26 days' supply of cigarettes at 20 a day would come to £160 of tax. So if a bottle lasts a 20 a day smoker about a month, and they were to extract as much tax out of vapers as they do smokers, then I guess it would cost that much.

If my sums are right, that is. Which is in no way guaranteed.

(Disclaimer: I'm neither a smoker nor a vaper so I have no idea how this stuff works grin)

gamerchick Wed 05-Mar-14 21:39:54

What about this changing cigs to 19 a box the lass at sainsburys was telling me.. they're struggling to get some brands delivered apparently.

Anybody know ?

Allergictoironing Wed 05-Mar-14 22:12:37

Corus the liquid usually comes in 10ml or 30ml bottles, the new EU legislation will restrict that to 10ml max though there's no restriction on the number of cigarettes someone can buy (sigh). I'll guess the tobacconist was selling 10ml for £5.99 which is a bit expensive compared to many on line traders but they don't have his overheads and probably turn over higher volumes.

A typical ex-smoker who was on 20 a day will vape on average around 20ml a week, so even if the guy was selling 30ml bottles at that price (and if he is where is he!) you're still only talking about 10 days or so worth of liquid.

CorusKate Wed 05-Mar-14 22:15:43

Ah fair enough, he was bullshitting then grin

Jux Wed 05-Mar-14 23:00:54

There's nothing like living in a tolerant society, is there? grin

I've heard nothing about 19 in a box, gamerchick. The TPD that's going through will phase out packets of 10 though.

So ...

Smokers - buy bigger packets!
Vapers - buy smaller bottles!

This is why they want plain packaging on cigarettes, so they have a bit more space to work out the legislation wink

Jux Thu 06-Mar-14 10:20:22

They are also banning tobacco pouches below 20g, dh tells me. So rollers will have to buy a massive amount each time. Baccy dries out quite quickly.... You would have to buy the massive pouches more often.

Larger packs have a tendency to encourage people to smoke more as they don't have to cut back until they can get to the shops to replenish.

This is clearly giving a great advantage to Big Tobacco.

Why make it easier to do something which is more harmful and curtail something which is less harmful? Well, as usual, it comes down to money. BT will clearly make more money in sales and Gov will get more tax from it. Win-win for them both.

Puzzledandpissedoff Thu 06-Mar-14 11:25:11

So glad people are able to see the sheer irony of talk about banning ecigs while the real thing are still sold everywhere

At least there can no longer be any pretence that this is about health issues ...

Gottleogear Thu 06-Mar-14 11:56:01

Allergic, my £5.99 bottles are 20mls smile and 1 would last me 2-3 weeks

lesbican Thu 06-Mar-14 12:12:16

Oh aren't you happy enough that we are no longer able to smoke indoors, therefore get shafted outside in the rain? E-Cigs are not harmful to anyone else. It's like saying that someone shouldn't wear a certain perfume in your presence YABVVVU

Dwerf Thu 06-Mar-14 12:25:44

Jux That's it isn't it? If i buy a 12.5g box, it will last me maybe two days, but a 50g won't last me the week. Because it's there. They are actually encouraging people to smoke more.

It sounds stupid but you find the same with other stuff, eight pints of milk will go as fast as two pints if that's what you have in, one packet of biscuits will last as long as a tin-full.

And they are phasing out menthol. Well, if I can't get menthol, then why buy legit? May as well buy knockoff cigs at £3 a packet like most other people I know around here.

Jux Thu 06-Mar-14 15:41:35

I'd like to ban coca-cola and others of those vile drinks. They are extremely bad for you, and where sugar has been replaced with aspartame we have no idea of the longterms effects on health. Those drinks encourage obesity, which costs the health service vast sums of money to treat, not to mention social care where people become so obese they can't look after themselves and need help just washing themselves. Some even get DLA and motability scooters and cars. What is the total cost to society of sugar addiction? How dare those people drink that crap? Ban it I say.

gamerchick Thu 06-Mar-14 15:48:54

leave the pop alone like angry

gamerchick Thu 06-Mar-14 15:51:53

and who are 'those people' you speak of hmm

QueenStromba Thu 06-Mar-14 17:54:36

People who drink fizzy drinks obviously!

<ignores pop/sugar rant>

I always do a double take when i see someone smoking somehwere they shouldn't - then see it's an e-cig and have to remind myself they are harmless grin

I think they are fab - anything to get people off the dreaded fags is ace - wish they had been around when i gave up.

Jux Thu 06-Mar-14 18:06:04

gamerchick, you weren't taking me seriously, were you? Please say no!

gamerchick Thu 06-Mar-14 18:14:35

yes.. not now though thank christ.. i'll roll me sleeves up at getting rid of pop grin

PipkinsPal Thu 06-Mar-14 18:18:53

Not that I've ever smelt an e-cigarette but it is the action of putting a device to your mouth and sucking or blowing or whatever they do with it is the issue. It is showing young people that it is ok to do this and ultimately could push them to try real cigarettes when they are older. I saw a Dad in a school playground smoking one and thought it was really inappropriate.

CorusKate Thu 06-Mar-14 18:20:24

Yeah, I know. Just like those damned diabetics normalising injection of drugs, and people taking paracetamol in public normalising popping pills.

QueenStromba Thu 06-Mar-14 18:25:44

I personally chalk up my years of cocaine addiction to the widespread use of nasal sprays normalising putting things up your nose.

However was I not to grow up a heroin addict with all those spoons and tinfoil in the house? angry

Seriously though PipkinsPal. I have linked earlier on this thread to lots of research. Studies have been done on ecig take-up in youngsters and have found that almost without exception, kids using ecigs are smokers or ex smokers.

LittleBearPad Thu 06-Mar-14 18:40:05

Can I ask how long ecigs have been available?

QueenStromba Thu 06-Mar-14 18:46:28

They've been available in China for 10 years and about 7 here.

Since around 2007 IIRC.

WidowWadman Thu 06-Mar-14 18:51:57

YANBU - they normalise sucking on a nicotine stick again - whether they smell or not is irrelevant - I was glad to see smoking becoming less and less visible, especially around kids.

Ledare Thu 06-Mar-14 18:54:50

A ban on lollipops is sure to follow.

Ledare Thu 06-Mar-14 18:56:28

grin at spoons and tinfoil

Clearly there are some new arrivals who haven't RTFT so it's probably worth me posting this again smile ...

So, I thought I'd put a post together about what's happening in Europe and what we can do about it ...

Where we're at now: Last week, the EU voted in favour of adopting the Tobacco Products Directive, including Article 18a (now renamed Article 20) which concerns ecigs. You can read the full text of Article 20 here. This legislation is likely to come into force in May of this year and member states will have up to 30 months to comply (but they don't have to wait that long!)

- No device on the market today could comply with this legislation except cig-alikes with disposable cartridges - the sort produced by big tobacco and big pharma.

- No e-liquid over 20mg/ml will be legal (18mg/ml in practice to allow for a margin of error) - an estimated one quarter of vapers use liquid above this strength and are likely to return to smoking if they cannot get it.

- The requirement for all new devices to be approved six months before coming to market will kill innovation in the EU. Currently it is usual to see new versions of products released every few weeks.

- The notification regime will be too expensive for small companies to comply with. 98% of the market is made up of SMEs. Meanwhile, big tobacco and pharma will have no problem absorbing the costs.

- Restrictions on sponsorship will mean it becomes very difficult for forums, youtube channels and other sources of information to survive.

What we can do: A European Citizen's Initiative has been launched by European Free Vaping Initiative. 'The European citizens' initiative allows one million EU citizens to participate directly in the development of EU policies, by calling on the European Commission to make a legislative proposal.'

This is not just another petition. Numerous hurdles have already been cleared to set it up and secure the necessary representatives in countries across the EU. The initiative now needs 1 million 'statements of support' (basically signatures) by 25th November and for at least 7 member states to meet their 'quota' - a set number of signatures based on population.

If the required number of signatures is reached, it means that vapers themselves will have the opportunity to present their case to the EU and propose sensible legislation for ecigs to replace article 20 of the TPD.

Who should sign:

- vapers
- smokers, because you might want to try switching one day
- friends and family of vapers
- friends and family of smokers
- people who don't like being around smokers or who worry about SHS
- people who care about harm reduction and saving lives

How to sign:

- Go here - www.efvi.eu/
- Scroll down to the big green rectangle and click it
- Fill in your info on the EU site

You will be asked to provide your full name, address and DOB. This is because this is not just another petition, it's an official EU process - they need to check you are a genuine EU citizen.

Please also ask your families, friends, colleagues etc. to sign and share on FB, Twitter or whatever else you do online.

PipkinsPal Thu 06-Mar-14 19:05:31

Seriously though Plentyof if you wouldn't smoke a real cigarette in places you shouldn't then the same applies to e-cigarettes. They haven't been around long enough to know whether young children today will start smoking in the future. Also what the long term health implications whether there will be or not for the e-cigarette user. Remember it was good for your health to smoke years ago. It's catching up with the vast majority now.

CorusKate Thu 06-Mar-14 19:10:10

We don't know if there's an epidemic of RSI brewing because of people using tablet devices, either - DP has a dodgy wrist from having it at a particular angle while using his. Maybe we should ban those in public.

CorusKate Thu 06-Mar-14 19:13:18

I'm actually extremely pro-testing and pro-regulation of these kinds of things. People should be able to know exactly what they're buying and exactly what the health risks are. But the regulations mentioned above by PubeGardens don't sound evidence-based or at all helpful.

Ledare Thu 06-Mar-14 19:14:53

I did get a little bit of hard skin from pressing the button when I first started vaping.

shock

TalisaMaegyr Thu 06-Mar-14 19:18:32

This thread is making me angry. Those of you that object to ecigs, do you drink alcohol in public? Like in a restaurant or pub, in front of children? FFS.

Ledare Thu 06-Mar-14 19:22:52

Or have a coffee machine at home?

Unless you drink de-caff.

I dropped my MVP on my toe the other day Ledare shock There should be a warning on it not to vape barefoot (there probably is in Canada)

Yes Corus, I'm all for sensible regulations and testing regimes.

PipkinsPal. we stopped smoking in enclosed spaces because of passive smoking. If you can work out how that can apply to e-cigs then you may have a point.

The idea that we should avoid doing something in public that we believe to be safe, but might turn out one day not to be is just ridiculous.

You do realise that wearing perfume could encourage other people to wear perfume. It normalises it and vulnerable people may consider that it's acceptable to wearing perfume.

Cigarettesandsmirnoff Thu 06-Mar-14 21:25:11

You do realise that wearing perfume could encourage other people to wear perfume. It normalises it and vulnerable people may consider that it's acceptable to wearing perfume

It's not the same. The vapours were designed to help give up smoking after being addicted to nicotine. They don't address the nicotine addiction or hand to mouth habit. - which is fine as some people don't ant to give up but it's a better alternative. BUT the way they are marketed, do appeal to younger people. Fruit and sweet flavours target the younger crowd and the newer vapesticks do look good.

Allergictoironing Thu 06-Mar-14 21:31:38

I thought you said you'd quit this thread for good Cigarettes?

ginmakesitallok Thu 06-Mar-14 21:41:51

So what flavours should the older crowd go for? Fruit and sweet flavours haven't been developed to speak to the younger crowd, they've been developed to appeal full stop.

Ledare Thu 06-Mar-14 21:42:18

Welcome back, Cigarettesandsmiroff.

I have a thirteen year old and she sees my Snoop Dogg rainbow battery as desperately uncool. In fact she is more embarrassed about me having a couple of vapes than when I was smoking cigarettes!

I think I would like actual tobacco products to be banned. That would be better.

ginmakesitallok Thu 06-Mar-14 21:42:52

By your reasoning they should taste shit and look shit.

Ledare Thu 06-Mar-14 21:46:33

NHS cost of smoking related diseases 2-5 billion.

Tobacco revenue to the treasury 25 billion.

If everyone stopped smoking and nobody took it up, we'd be fucked.

CorusKate Thu 06-Mar-14 21:49:43

I assume sackcloth and ashes would be an acceptable flavour? Or perhaps hairshirt?

Ledare Thu 06-Mar-14 21:55:06

I am currently vaping a mixture of gruel and sawdust.

ginmakesitallok Thu 06-Mar-14 21:56:05

Gruel? Don't kids like that??

I've got a tank full of Brussels sprouts.

Ledare Thu 06-Mar-14 21:56:38

grin

Allergictoironing Thu 06-Mar-14 22:05:21

I must be a teen again, as I'm vaping pineapple (fruit), banana milkshake (definitely a kiddy thing) and the occasional butterscotch (sweetie) at the mo. So I can't POSSIBLY be in my 50's if I like those flavours can I?

sackcloth and ashes yeah I think that might satisfy them.

Allergictoironing Thu 06-Mar-14 22:08:38

I know what they want us to have - burnt tobacco with additives flavour, with a bit of ash mixed in!

Maybe they also think we should douse ourselves in perfume that smells the same......

moondog Thu 06-Mar-14 22:12:00

I've never even seen anyone with an e cigarette . Where are they all?
Quite fancy trying one out actually.

Dwerf Thu 06-Mar-14 22:14:03

They are all sneakily vaping in Wetherspoons, tesco and your local GP surgery moondog

Allergictoironing Thu 06-Mar-14 22:15:31

Being harried off the streets by people who think they should be banned because they don't like looking at them Moondog sad

My workplace follows the BMA guidelines, which are to treat eCigs the same as ordinary ones, and this gets applied both to staff and customers.

To quote The use of e-cigarettes may undermine smoking prevention and cessation by reinforcing the normalcy of cigarette use in public and workplaces

Staff don't seem that bothered. Going by the verbal abuse I got last time I had to ask someone to stop, customers seem a bit more irritated by it (although tbh I can count on one hand the amount of people who I've seen try it) I'll admit I don't like it, but that's mainly because first glance, from a distance it generally does look like someone's lit up on the salesfloor.

CorusKate Thu 06-Mar-14 22:28:03

Sometimes I squat down in the supermarket in order to look at something on the bottom shelf. I bet from a distance it looks very much like I'm having a crafty crap.

The BMA comes out with a lot of rubbish, sadly - it's not nearly as scientific or evidence-based an organisation as it should be. The pronouncements they make should in no way be taken to be always representative of the views of the vast majority of doctors - just a vocal few. I've known quite a lot of doctors socially and they quite often roll their eyes at the BMA.

The only justification for banning smoking in enclosed spaces was passive smoking. If "someone might copy them" is now considered a danger then it's time to ban people who drink where other adults might see them or worse, children.

I'd like to tell you that nobody has ever had a sneaky crap on our salesfloor, but sadly I'll be lying grin

CorusKate Thu 06-Mar-14 22:34:47

Ye gods, MrsDmitri. That's foul.

moondog Thu 06-Mar-14 22:37:10

God yes. Loathe all of this prissy lecturing. There are irritatingly sanctimonious signs up in parks around here exhorting people to 'let tiny lungs breathe'. It enrages me that public money spent on this crap. In same vein, my kids were sent home with 'bacco busters' paraphernalia.
I sent it all back with strongly worded letter of complaint.
Soon people will be arrested for even thinking about fags .

Innogen Thu 06-Mar-14 22:41:25

Vaping spearmint right now. Fully recommend the flavour - it's my first 'flavour' other than tobacco since I quit smoking. Enjoying it very much.

Any good flavour recommendations? I like the light, freshness of the spearmint.

morethanpotatoprints Thu 06-Mar-14 22:44:21

I'm smoking mine everywhere until somebody tells me its not allowed.
I had one on the train last night and nobody official said anything, the ticket collector saw me.
Somebody tutted behind me, so I waited until dd was talking to her friend in front of us, leaned back and told her to go fuck herself. That gave her something to tutt about.
I am not normally one for confrontation, but it wasn't a smelly one and I didn't sit there puffing only had a couple of pulls.

Downside of having display toilets Coruskate - some joker always finds it amusing to use them (even with plastic screwed over the top)

stillenacht Thu 06-Mar-14 22:47:25

Hi Innogen I have been vaping since November. My absolute fav flavour is Liberty Flights' Caramel apple pie smile

Ledare Thu 06-Mar-14 22:51:57

morethanpotatoprints that is hilarious! I imagine you vapng in a most ladylike manner and then saying that hahahahaha!

Jux Thu 06-Mar-14 23:08:59

Pipkinspal, it's the action of putting a device to your mouth and sucking or blowing

Like playing a recorder - which lots of primary school children do?
Like breastfeeding - which lots of babies do?
Like using a straw?

What people are objecting to is that a way has been found around the smoking ban, so nicotine addicts don't have to suffer withdrawal. A bit like coffee addicts don't have to suffer withdrawal. A bit like sugar addicts don't have to suffer withdrawal.

Let's face it, addiction is disgusting and addicts should be punished.

But, also looking at reality, you can't actually do without the tax smokers pay on those fags - which are actually dangerous.

WidowWadman Thu 06-Mar-14 23:31:38

"Like playing a recorder - which lots of primary school children do?
Like breastfeeding - which lots of babies do?"

Purlease, you really try to compare sucking on a nicotine stick to breastfeeding or playing the recorder?

If you feel the need to vape, vape away, (just not in my office, GP waiting room, bus, or in front of my kids etc, you get the gist) - but really, stop pretending that it's a cessation device pr that you've kicked a habit. It's not and you haven't. Because there's no intention to stop using it. And stop pretending that manufacturers only look to current smokers as potential users. They don't. Stop pretending that vaping is sticking two fingers up to big tobacco. It isn't.

If you can't cope walking around the super market, sitting in the GP's waiting room or the bus without having to vape, you're having an addiction problem. Stop comparing it to drinking coffee. I hardly ever see people drinking coffee whilst walking around the super market, or waiting for the GP or sitting on the bus.

Allergictoironing Fri 07-Mar-14 07:40:52

Widow we know we have an addiction problem, I don't think anyone here has suggested we don't. However we've found a way that helps us with the non-lethal elements of the addiction that is virtually risk free. E-cigs mean that literally millions of people who wouldn't have been able to quit inhaling all the dangerous chemicals found in smoke (not the nicotine please note) have been able to replace that with something that is according to current research around 1000 times safer, and at the same time have eliminated any potential harm to others around them.

I don't happen to vape anywhere I wouldn't have smoked in public, though my never-smoker sister who completely loathes the smell of smoke is happy for me to vape in her house. I have vaped in pubs etc. that have indicated that they are OK with it, mainly because as an ex-smoker I don't want to be made to stand with existing smokers and re-acquire that miasma of stinkiness I've managed to get rid of. Note I didn't say as an ex nicotine addict because I know I'm not, but I'm definitely an ex-smoker.

But actually there is no reason why vapers shouldn't be able to indulge wherever they want apart from some people's ickyness about seeing something that in their own minds they associate with smoking. Well I get an icky feeling when I see someone picking their nose & eating the bogeys in public, and am potentially caused actual harm as well as icky feelings if someone insists on repeatedly sneezing without a tissue next to me on public transport. But because those aren't associated in people's minds with something else then they are OK.

The reason you find people here reacting so badly to being told there should be as many if not more restrictions on vaping as there are on smoking is because if many of the incentives to vape are taken away (harder to get, more expensive, have to jump through more hoops, fewer places we can vape) then we know fewer people will switch to vaping from smoking. The current new EU directive is actually stricter on vaping products than on traditional tobacco products, makes then have stricter packaging requirements than bleach, and are designed to strangle any innovation in the market. They have even written the directive in such a way that the market is likely to be limited to e-cigs that LOOK like traditional cigarettes, and prevent the use of systems that look very different (and are therefore less likely to be associated with real smoking)

gamerchick Fri 07-Mar-14 08:12:59

Reet just gone for my 20 jps superkings and they're a lower price but only have 19 in the box.

Will they do that to all of them I wonder and then raise the price as normal?

Fuckers.

That should make the frothers happy I suppose grin

DowntonTrout Fri 07-Mar-14 08:19:24

What a lot of to do over nothing.

These anti smoking and anything to do with it people will find something wrong with whatever you do, even though vaping doesn't affect them at all. Although I'd be interested to know if they also object to people trying to give up smoking chewing nicotine gum or wearing a patch.

After all we're just addicts and should be punished......

ginmakesitallok Fri 07-Mar-14 08:23:40

What about people who use nicorette inhalers?? They mimic smoking, do they normalise smoking??

gamerchick Fri 07-Mar-14 08:24:43

What bugs me though is people who drive cars are pumping out all sorts of crap. Do they think of those bairns in buggys who are just at the right height to get a face full of exhaust?

Maybe we should ban cars in public places wink

TalisaMaegyr Fri 07-Mar-14 08:59:00

Widow - I really want to know WHY you object to someone vaping in your office, for example. Why?? I genuinely am struggling to understand.

MistyB Fri 07-Mar-14 09:53:11

I agree that ecigarettes are better than regular cigarettes but nicotine is still a drug that lodges in the brain and causes memory disfunction, it has been found in the blood of 'passive vapers' and while they do polute less than conventional cigarettes they do put detectable levels of several significant carcinogens and toxins into the air. They are safer than cigarettes for sure, no question, but are they safe, no!

Of course they are not the only source of toxins and carcinogens in the world but as a non smoker I have the right to have my space protected from them in the same way the law protects my indoor space from the toxins in conventional cigarette smoke. No pearl clutching, fainting required.

ginmakesitallok Fri 07-Mar-14 10:09:20

Misty - have you read the second comment re the article you linked to?

S Glantz, while your intentions seem noble, if not a bit condescending, your stated facts in response to the study are not completely accurate, and your comments do not portray what the study found. For example, the levels of acetic acids, acetone, and isoprene are in levels 10,000 times lower than the average person would receive in a room heated with a central forced-air heating system, not 20% of what a cigarette would put into the air. You need to re-read the study.

Additionally, there is more formaldehyde absorbed into the skin by washing your hands just one time with the average restroom soap from a restaurant or other public establishment that one would receive being in a room full of e-cigarette users for an entire year.

While it is true that some inexpensive e-cigarettes do use some chemicals which may contain higher levels of some chemicals and perhaps carcinogens, generally speaking, the base chemical used in standard liquids for an e-cigarette are purified propylene glycol and vegetable glycerin. These are the same chemicals used to give asthma and pulmonary patients breathing and nebulizer treatments. These liquids allow the breakdown of the nicotine into the body the same as they allow a nebulizer to deliver drugs (NABA and SAIDS) to pulmonary patients.

Instead of continually trying to vilify those who are addicted to nicotine, let's first try congratulating them on at least dumping the horrible habit of tobacco use, which puts out 400+ additional, truly harmful chemicals to the smoker, and those around them. Instead of just screaming "BAN IT!" to anyone who will listen, why not try a truthful, educative approach first? Just don't try to educate by trumping up the facts, simply because it bruises your dislike of their habit.


Dr. Peter Protero
Dr. of Pulmonology

ginmakesitallok Fri 07-Mar-14 10:11:17

And nicotine has actually been shown to enhance memory...

Cigarettesandsmirnoff Fri 07-Mar-14 11:36:18

I missed you allergic grin

I can't believe this thread is still rumbling on!

still I use liberty flights but always stuck with menthol. I tried cherry menthol but the fluid is more 'watery' and I feel I smoke more and my chest felt a bit tight.

Puzzledandpissedoff Fri 07-Mar-14 12:29:19

The current new EU directive is actually stricter on vaping products than on traditional tobacco products

Yes it is - and I'm still waiting to read anything sensible about that ...

Allergictoironing Fri 07-Mar-14 14:22:21

(waves at Cigarettes) I guess this thread will keep going for as long as you get people saying "I know there's no real reason at all to object to other people vaping near me, but as it makes me feel a bit icky because I associate it with real smoking then it should be banned". Or as lng as you get people making it very clear they feel that vapers should be punished for their addiction by being made to stand in the cold & rain along with real polluting smokers.

antismoker111 Mon 16-Jun-14 17:00:06

No I dont think you are unreasonable. Cigarettes and e-cigarettes should be treated the same. Patches obviously do not give any smoke, so why not use them in crowded places. If someone cannot last the half hour or so in a GP waiting room then seriously they have big problems. No need for others to suffer because of it.

DaisyBug1212 Mon 16-Jun-14 17:11:48

I dont know why this lady needed to use the e cig indoors, she wouldn't be able to smoke a real cigarette indoors so why an e cig?

Anyway having a young child i wouldnt want them to think smoking is an acceptable habit so i dont really think YABU imo x

ineedausername Mon 16-Jun-14 19:51:49

Antismoker - smoking is an addiction, so yes, people clearly do have a big problem with it! And really, people are 'suffering' from others using an e-cig? do you have anything to actually back that up?
and fyi, cigarettes and e-cigs are not the same, hence shouldn't be treated the same!

By the way, i don't think she should've used it in the waiting room.

Gosh, what an old thread smile

Have you seen ASH's latest Briefing on Electronic Cigarettes? It's very good.

In the UK smokefree legislation exists to protect the public from the demonstrable harms of secondhand smoke. ASH does not consider it appropriate for electronic cigarettes to be subject to this legislation, but that it should be for organisations to determine on a voluntary basis how these products should be used on their premises.

also ...

One stated advantage of smokefree legislation is that it de-normalises smoking, effectively distancing the behaviour from what is an accepted social norm. The ban on smoking in public places has reinforced in many people’s minds that such behaviour has gone from a normal, widely accepted activity to one that is abnormal and unaccepted. There are concerns that electronic cigarettes will undermine this process, threatening the now established practice of smokefree public places, such as at work or on public transport. However to date there is little evidence to suggest this is the case.

and ...

One of the risks highlighted by professionals is that electronic cigarettes could act as a ‘gateway’ to smoking tobacco among children. Current evidence suggests this phenomenon is not occurring. Among children, current electronic cigarette use is confined almost entirely to those who have already tried smoking.

antismoker, vapourisers (ecigs) also do not produce any smoke. They do produce a little steam, with negligible health risks, which settles out of the atmosphere very quickly. There are of course questions of etiquette to be considered before vaping in a doctor's waiting room but the fact that out of all the emission free (and ineffective) NRT products on the market you suggest a patch should be used to tide a quitter over a half hour wait shows how very little you know about any of this. It takes hours for a patch to release enough nicotine to curb any cravings. Gum, lozenges, spray or inhalator would all be far better choices for this situation (but not as good as nipping to the loo for a quick stealthy vape).

ineedausername Mon 16-Jun-14 19:56:51

well said plenty ;)

Doesn't take long for the killjoys to get their teeth into ex-smokers, does it? You'd think they'd be glad smokers are moving on to something that's entirely harmless to anyone else. But oh nooooo, can't possibly have smokers finding something that helps them give up, can we?

Just shows there are plenty of people who aren't interested in health at all, their true motivation is making other people miserable.

antismoker111 Mon 16-Jun-14 22:46:09

There have been numerous studies which have shown that passive "vaping" can cause various irritations in people - just check websites, there are lots of them! The person who used an e-cig could have used a patch BEFORE turning up for her appointment or is that something else I don't understand? In fact several people who have posted here said they smell so tell them too that they are wrong! FYI the smell was evident LONG before we saw the device when we were affected.

ineedausername Mon 16-Jun-14 23:00:26

and there are just as many websites and studies which say it isn't harmful...
And no, you don't understand as you clearly aren't a smoker!

ICanSeeTheSun Mon 16-Jun-14 23:02:42

I'm an ex smoker ( can I say that after 8 days) but other people smoking, vaping or using any NRT.

I have put loads of people at risk of 2nd hand smoke. I have no right to dictate where or when other people smoke.

mouse26 Mon 16-Jun-14 23:02:45

I dont think thry should be banned in all public places but I think there are places they shouldnt be used. I love my ecig BUT I dont use it in shops, doctors, on the school playground etc. I wouldnt have lit a fag up in those places when i smoked and I can manage without nicotine while im shopping or seeing my gp. I do use mine at my desk at work though, management prefer that to me nipping out for a nicotine break every hour or so grin

ICanSeeTheSun Mon 16-Jun-14 23:09:41

Don't bother me after the 1st paragraph.

I have had 8 days of pure hell, I don't want sympathy or empathy.

I am sweating more, my hair and skin is greasy, my chest hurts, my throat hurt. I'm suffering from this weird insomnia/fatigue thing. My gums are bleeding every time I brush my teeth. On top of that my concentration is messed up and irritable.

Giving up smoking is bloody hard.

I will do it, but give me a bloody break and don't judge me when I am trying my hardest to give up.

There have been numerous studies which have shown that passive "vaping" can cause various irritations in people - just check websites, there are lots of them!

No, you provide a link to back up what you're saying. That's how it works. Lots of people have sensitivities to all sorts of things, you need something stronger than that to justify a ban and the evidence of harm from e cigarettes is simply not there. On the other hand, if vapers are sent out with smokers then a) you are subjecting NON-smokers to second hand smoke and b) you are putting them into a situation where they are at serious risk of relapse. There is plenty of evidence of harm from a) and b), hence ASH's position.

That doesn't mean that vaping in a doctor's waiting room is a polite or considerate thing to do - personally I wouldn't and it's up to the surgery if they choose to not allow it.

The person who used an e-cig could have used a patch BEFORE turning up for her appointment or is that something else I don't understand?

Why on earth would someone do this when gum exists? When lozenges, sprays and inhalators exist? It's a ridiculous suggestion and yes, it shows a massive lack of understanding, sorry.

antismoker111 Tue 17-Jun-14 10:00:06

Dr Sanjay Gupta reports that some of the most popular e-cigarette brands contain carcinogens, they can still cause cancer. The FDA has also detected a toxic chemical found in antifreeze in some leading brands. Although manufacturers say they are "pretty sure" their product is safe, the jury is still out about the health effects (and consequently second hand effects) with e-cigarettes. Manufacturers are NOT required to disclose the ingredients in e-cigarette liquid nor the substances present in the vapor inhaled and exhaled by the user.

Have you read the other posts in this thread? Several users of e-cigarettes report having reactions with them, so much so, some would revert back to smoking and say they should not be on the market without health warnings!

Even someone who sells them in London (the first shop to sell them in Covent Garden) says she would NEVER promote them as a healthy option. "The only good smoking is no smoking" (her quote).

Look up the following sites: "Should you worry about secondhand e-cig vapors". "A new cancer study found e-cigarettes affect cells the same as cigarettes". ROONEY - e-cigarettes carry harmful effects for smokers,non smokers". "My boss smokes e-cigarettes in the office is this safe". Just to mention a few! Not to mention Dr Stanton Glantz Director for the Center for Tobacco Control Research and Education at the University of California San Francisco who says and I quote: E-cigarettes do not just emit "harmless water vapor" Secondhand e-cigarette aerosol (incorrectly called vapor by the industry), contains nicotine, ultrafine particles and low levels of toxins that are known to cause cancer. "E cigarettes contain and emit propylene glycol, a chemical that is used as a base in e-cigarette solution, and is one of the primary components in the aerosol emitted by e-cigarettes. Short term exposure causes eye, throat and airway irritation. Long term exposure can result in children developing asthma". Further "even though propylene glycol is FDA approved for use in some products, the inhalation of vaporised nicotine in propylene glycol is not. Some studies show that heating propylene glycol changes its chemical composition, producing small amounts of propylene oxide, a known carcinogen". In fact read the whole article "Americans for Nonsmokers' Rights 2014".

Also to "ineedasuername" I smoked casually, not like an addict, in my late teens and early twenties when studying for exams, and CHOSE to stop because I could not get rid of a constant sore throat and cough! (Note- without any of the devices available today, just used my common sense really!)

As for sending out former smokers to be with smokers, then that is exactly what smokers used to do to non smokers, pollute the air, how the tide has turned! Now they now don't like the smell, should not be exposed to "harmful" smoke" etc etc. Ironic isn't it?

Eminybob Tue 17-Jun-14 10:17:20

E cigs are designed to help people quit smoking. IMO, they should be used as a replacement when getting a nicotine craving, and if it were me using them I would try to stick to when I would normally have a cigarette. I gave up a couple of years ago, before this craze, and I used nicotine replacement mints. I only used them when getting a craving, not sat there popping them all day long.

Anyway, I think people who constantly have an e cig handing out their mouth look revolting and common (just as smokers would do if they wondered around all day long puffing away - which they don't)

I also think that allowing them in any public place gives a really bad message to kids, that it is ok to use them. It's not, they have addictive nicotine and other chemicals in them. Obviously I'd rather a child used them than an actual cigarette, but I think the message being given is damaging.

That's my opinion anyway.

ilovesooty Tue 17-Jun-14 10:23:20

I'm not allowed to use one at work and I wouldn't use one in a doctor's surgery. However I can't believe the amount of hysterical and sanctimonious twaddle on this thread.

ineedausername Tue 17-Jun-14 11:23:28

That's good to know, perhaps I should just use my common sense to stop then? Are you off preaching to people with eating disorders and drug addicts also?
Just tell them all to use common sense too?

Well, some actual links would have been good, anti, so I could see where you are getting all this twaddle from. It really is a bit much to expect people to go off and google your assertions. It's quite simple to do a link, the instructions are next to the box where you write your post. If it's a bit hard, you could just c&p the url - that would be useful.

Never mind, lets see what we have ...

Dr Sanjay Gupta reports that some of the most popular e-cigarette brands contain carcinogens, they can still cause cancer.

So this will be from here I presume. This is a popular science media piece by a non-expert (he's a neurologist by trade), published in 2010. Have you any idea how many studies on ecigs have been published since then? It's hard to know where Gupta has got his information from because he hasn't provided a reference, however the same assertion has been made a few times, but here's the thing: pretty much everything around you 'contains carcinogens'. The important factor is whether they are present in quantities that are likely to be hazardous to health...

Current state of knowledge about chemistry of liquids and aerosols associated with electronic cigarettes indicates that there is no evidence that vaping produces inhalable exposures to contaminants of the aerosol that would warrant health concerns by the standards that are used to ensure safety of workplaces... Exposures of bystanders are likely to be orders of magnitude less, and thus pose no apparent concern. from Burstyn, 2014: Peering through the mist: systematic review of what the chemistry of contaminants in electronic cigarettes tells us about health risks.

The FDA has also detected a toxic chemical found in antifreeze in some leading brands.

This one's even older, it's from a tiny 2009 study on 18 cartridges from 4 different products (none of which are still on the market). This was covered quite adequately by the study linked to above. From their key conclusions:

• The frequently stated concern about contamination of the liquid by a nontrivial quantity of ethylene glycol or diethylene glycol remains based on a single sample of an early-technology product (and even this did not rise to the level of health concern) and has not been replicated.

It doesn't stop the FDA from trotting it out at every available opportunity - anybody would think they didn't have anything better grin

Although manufacturers say they are "pretty sure" their product is safe, the jury is still out about the health effects (and consequently second hand effects) with e-cigarettes.

All that is missing now is longitudinal studies. We will never get these unless a large number of people continue vaping for a long time. If the message is 'don't vape until we know for sure it's safe' then in 20 or 30 years time, hundreds of thousands more lives will have been lost to smoking and we still won't have any data.

Manufacturers are NOT required to disclose the ingredients in e-cigarette liquid nor the substances present in the vapor inhaled and exhaled by the user.

I agree we could do with better labelling, and so do most vapers. Meanwhile, I do know what's in mine: propylene glycol, vegetable glycerine, nicotine and food flavourings - because while it is not yet a legal requirement (it will be by 2016), most manufacturers are perfectly happy to list ingredients. Labelling is also subject to these EU directives: Dangerous Substances Directive 67/548/EEC, Dangerous Preparations Directive 99/45/EC and, from 2015, Classification, Labelling and Packaging of Substances and Mixtures CLP Regulation 1272/2008. Of course, those who are still worried can easily buy the ingredients and mix their own.

This is getting rather long and I have things to do. I will be back later to address the rest of your points in a separate post.

Have you read the other posts in this thread? Several users of e-cigarettes report having reactions with them, so much so, some would revert back to smoking and say they should not be on the market without health warnings!

Yes, some people have a reaction to one or more of the ingredients. Some people can't vape PG so they look for VG juice. Some people find out there are certain flavours that don't agree with them, eg. I can't do most fruit flavours as they make my mouth sore. Some people decide that ecigs are not for them at all and find another method to quit. Some people don't manage to quit at all and end up back on fags. Half of them will die. What was your point again?

Even someone who sells them in London (the first shop to sell them in Covent Garden) says she would NEVER promote them as a healthy option. "The only good smoking is no smoking" (her quote).

Even a shop assistant said that, did she? Oh well then, I'm convinced! Nobody is advocating that non-smokers should start vaping for their health.

Look up the following sites

Links would have been nice but just for this post, OK smile

"Should you worry about secondhand e-cig vapors" from here?

This is an opinion piece. The only research referenced is from Stanton Glantz (who we will learn more about below) and that same FDA study which was dealt with in my last post.

"A new cancer study found e-cigarettes affect cells the same as cigarettes" from here?

Here is the article referred to in Nature. The first thing we learn is that this is not a study, it's an unpublished abstract (so not yet peer reviewed) which was presented at a conference. The cells used in the study were not normal human cells but specially modified and cultured pre-cancerous cells. The cells exposed to levels of nicotine similar to that found in vapers showed no difference to the controls, it was the cells exposed to nicotine at levels found in smokers that showed some differences. When you examine the abstract itself you will see that the only thing that is actually suggested by these preliminary findings is that high doses of nicotine can possibly speed the growth of pre-existing cancer. We already knew this. It hasn't stopped Professor John Britton (Director of the UK Centre on Tobacco and Alcohol Studies and heads the Royal College of Physicians Tobacco Advisory Group) from making the following statements:

“Nicotine itself is not a particularly hazardous drug,” says Professor John Britton, who leads the tobacco advisory group for the Royal College of Physicians.

“It’s something on a par with the effects you get from caffeine.

“If all the smokers in Britain stopped smoking cigarettes and started smoking e-cigarettes we would save 5 million deaths in people who are alive today. It’s a massive potential public health prize.” (from BBC)

There is a good commentary on these preliminary findings here. I look forward to the responses from scientists when this study is actually completed, peer reviewed and published.

"ROONEY - e-cigarettes carry harmful effects for smokers,non smokers" - from here?

This is another opinion piece which references yet more opinion pieces. I simply do not have time to trawl back through a spaghetti of links to find where the assertions are coming from. If you want to spend some time doing that and provide some links I will happily comment.

"My boss smokes e-cigarettes in the office is this safe".

This is the 2010 Gupta article again, discussed in my last post.

Not to mention Dr Stanton Glantz Director for the Center for Tobacco Control Research and Education at the University of California San Francisco who says and I quote: E-cigarettes do not just emit "harmless water vapor" Secondhand e-cigarette aerosol (incorrectly called vapor by the industry), contains nicotine, ultrafine particles and low levels of toxins that are known to cause cancer. "E cigarettes contain and emit propylene glycol, a chemical that is used as a base in e-cigarette solution, and is one of the primary components in the aerosol emitted by e-cigarettes. Short term exposure causes eye, throat and airway irritation. Long term exposure can result in children developing asthma". Further "even though propylene glycol is FDA approved for use in some products, the inhalation of vaporised nicotine in propylene glycol is not. Some studies show that heating propylene glycol changes its chemical composition, producing small amounts of propylene oxide, a known carcinogen".

Oh I'm glad you mentioned him, he's always good for a laugh grin

Yes, technically 'vapour' from ecigs is an aerosol (like clouds, mist and the steam from your kettle once it becomes visible) - and? Yes it contains nicotine in very small amounts, as already discussed. Of course it contains 'ultrafine particles' - that's what an aerosol is! Yes, it contains very low levels of toxins that are known to cause cancer at much higher concentrations This has already been discussed in my previous post with reference to the Burstyn paper

Propylene Glycol has a very low toxicity profile and is in all sorts of things from household products, cosmetics, toothpastes and mouthwashes, food products, even medicinal inhalers. It's also used in fogging machines at concerts and festivals and used to be pumped around hospital air conditioning systems because it has antibacterial qualities (that practice was only stopped because of economics, not because it did any harm). Some people are a bit sensitive to it and it can cause minor irritation in susceptible people, just like any of countless household chemicals, foodstuffs, animals ... There may be a link with an increased risk of asthma (although it has been used quite commonly in asthma inhalers) - it's hard to tell because the study this statement relies on didn't separate out PG from glycol ethers.

Vaporised nicotine in propylene glycol is not FDA approved because it is neither a food nor a medicine and as such it is not within their remit to approve or ban. This will change as soon as the first medicinal licenses are granted for ecigs, probably at some point this year.

The propylene oxide claim is one of the most dishonest uses of scientific research I have ever seen! This is the study this pressure group has based their statement on - nothing to do with ecigs at all. To what temperature was it heated and in what conditions? How does the heat degradation of solar heat transfer fluids under conditions of stagnation or malfunction relate to what goes on in an ecig? Any ideas? I don't, and I doubt Americans for Nonsmokers' Rights do either. Not even Glantz has argued that propylene oxide is present in ecigs (and he has argued some right old bum gravy), in fact the only place I can find any reference to this link is the American anti-smoker's propaganda club, or whatever they are called.

Incidentally, Stanton Glantz is an increasingly non-credible source as he veers further and further away from scientific honesty. He is not a medical professional, his qualifications are in mechanical engineering.

In fact read the whole article "Americans for Nonsmokers' Rights 2014".

I think I've read enough! How about you read this (create an account to access full paper for free), this, this, this, this or this. Or, seeing as you like opinion pieces, how about this smile

Also to "ineedasuername" I smoked casually, not like an addict, in my late teens and early twenties when studying for exams, and CHOSE to stop because I could not get rid of a constant sore throat and cough! (Note- without any of the devices available today, just used my common sense really!)

Bully for you! <slow hand clap> Have you thought of sharing your amazing wisdom with WHO or ASH? I'm sure they'd be everso grateful.

As for sending out former smokers to be with smokers, then that is exactly what smokers used to do to non smokers, pollute the air, how the tide has turned! Now they now don't like the smell, should not be exposed to "harmful" smoke" etc etc. Ironic isn't it?

My agenda is harm reduction and prevention of early death and disease from smoking. What's yours?

OTheHugeManatee Tue 17-Jun-14 18:17:14

I'm an ex smoker and judge compulsive e-cigarette users as I think it's basically (like real cigarettes) a form of thumb sucking for grownups. But I don't think they should be banned like cigarettes. The intrusion and smell off e-cigarettes is minimal, unlike tobacco smoke which is minging and lingers. I think e-cigarettes are a bit pathetic but wanting to ban them is just petty and controlling.

<awaits flaming from everyone>

ineedausername Tue 17-Jun-14 20:04:20

Don't worry Manatee, i can absolutely take someone opinion if they think its pathetic or whatever, i just don't like the almost evangelical spouting of nonsense smile

Oh, i'm on ecigs, and haven't smoke a real fag for 2 weeks. To me this is amazing! I have smoked since i was 17 (15 years) and probably on 20 a day for most of that time. I have no willpower. But these things are actually working for me smile

U2TheEdge Tue 17-Jun-14 20:18:14

I suck my thumb in bed and compulsively cape!

I must be really judged grin

Over two years vaping now. Not one cigarette. I can't even remember the last time I had a cough or chest infection. Never felt healthier.

ineedausername Tue 17-Jun-14 20:20:03

well done U2 smile come and join us on the stop smoking thread, quite a few vapers over there smile

Brilliant U2 well done flowers (and you OTheHuge, however you managed to kick the fags)

I compulsively cape too. This is me with my gen 4 device (yes I am getting silly now) grin

IceRocket Tue 17-Jun-14 21:50:39

I use an ecig. I would use it in the pub, car, etc. But wouldn't dream of using in in doctors, hospital, work, playgroup or anywhere like that. I think there has to be a time & a place really.

petalchops Tue 17-Jun-14 22:45:08

I'm afraid I don't think they should be allowed in public. I don't want my children thinking smoking in ANY format is socially acceptable. At the end of the day they still contains a drug. Just when smoking is starting to become taboo we need to keep the ball rolling.

U2TheEdge Wed 18-Jun-14 13:00:13

grin pubegardens

ICanSeeTheSun Wed 18-Jun-14 17:27:42
sugar21 Wed 18-Jun-14 17:54:34

Christ what a lot of hoo ha over a fag. Booze is worse as is heroin and all Class A's. If you objected to the e-cig just ask the woman to switch it off. There are people having to sleep on the streets who have little to eat and every one gets into a strop over a fag.

CrayolaCocaColaRocknRolla Thu 19-Jun-14 09:55:52

Personally as a smoker I really don't mind going outside when we're at a bar/pub. BUT I would like at least SOME places be smoking places, or have a tap room like they used to have in my local. If it was banned in ALL public places there would be an uproar. I can wait 5 hours without a cigarette as I work, so I don't have to smoke when I'm shopping etc. I can wait until I get home. I suppose some people can't. I don't smoke near children/pregnant women/elderly. If someone asks me to move, I will. Some people don't like it. I do. I will hapily stand outside of a bus shelter if it's not raining. Most smokers aren't wankers about it.

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