To be bloody annoyed at family for facilitating this

(102 Posts)
Hoppinggreen Thu 27-Feb-14 16:25:26

Disclaimer - not a benefits bash thread, only referring to THIS particular case!!
A family member is 20 and has never worked. She has very mild SN but is mainly very lazy and spoilt. She has a baby at 16 and stayed at her mums, who does everything for this child while the mum buys crap with her child benefit. When she was told that after September when her child starts school she would have to go onto JSA and start looking for work she has now deliberately got pg - not speculating here she freely admits it.
Her mum has decided she doesn't want her and 2 children living there so has told her she has to move out. Another family member has bought a small house for her to rent. Rent will be paid by housing benefit. Apparently family member gets somewhere to live for free and other family member will end up owning a house where her mortgage is covered by benefits!!
I appreciate this doesn't really affect me but I am avoiding these people now as when asked what I think I will have to tell them and here will be falling out ( which may be a good thing??)

CailinDana Thu 27-Feb-14 16:28:13

Why will you be asked what you think?

scarletforya Thu 27-Feb-14 16:28:33


PrincessOfChina Thu 27-Feb-14 16:29:58

I didn't think Housing Benefit could be paid when the accomodation belonged to a relative?

Ra88 Thu 27-Feb-14 16:32:52

What princess said ! Fraud ..

Imnotmadeofeyes Thu 27-Feb-14 16:34:31

Do you really think that this situation will last out the term of the mortgage? This will end in tears imho.

Yes it's galling to actually witness someone misuse the system for financial gain, but I don't think benefit wise they're strictly speaking doing anything illegal.

The potential for so many different dramas between your family members is huge - housing benefit ending/being cut, maintenance, one of the parties wanting to end the contract and the bad feeling one will feel losing out etc.

I suppose you have to rely on karma a bit here.

WorraLiberty Thu 27-Feb-14 16:34:59

Why would they want to know your thoughts on this anyway?

Imnotmadeofeyes Thu 27-Feb-14 16:37:23

I'm pretty sure you can have proper rent agreements with family members. If you were living with them it would be different, but signing up a proper contract to take primary residence in a property is different.

I'd have my suspicions that all the proper regulations with deposits and insurance were being followed but that's a different subject.

Fontofnowt Thu 27-Feb-14 16:40:07

Contrived tenancy it's called.
How kind of them to buy her a house but sadly benefits aren't paid like this.

NatashaBee Thu 27-Feb-14 16:43:38

It probably won't be as simple as they think to claim housing benefit for the family member's house. I believe you have to have owned the rental property for a time already and prove that you have rented it out before at the same rate (to prevent people doing exactly what your family member has done).

Hoppinggreen Thu 27-Feb-14 16:44:09

Well the reason I will be asked is that first of all I will be expected to congratulate this person on her pregnancy when I see her and if I don't I will be accused of being mean.
Secondly certain family members have already said how wonderful it all is and from past experience when they so the same to me I will be biting my lip!!!
I did look up contrived tenancy and apparently while the HB people will look at this closely it IS possible

JuliaScurr Thu 27-Feb-14 16:44:16

yep, I think rellies can't get rent in HB

NatashaBee Thu 27-Feb-14 16:44:17

Contrived tenancy, that's the term I was trying to think of Fontofnowt

MrsDeVere Thu 27-Feb-14 16:44:38

All I can see is somebody making use of the welfare system. Yes it is annoying that she has done this but with learning difficulties, a young child and no work experience at all she has fuck all chance of getting a job.
She is going to be living in a private rental so not taking social housing from anybody else and I am assuming the rent will be set at a fairly low rate in order that it is covered by Housing Benefit.

Not something I would condone but in the grand scheme this is hardly a major hustle.

To be honest I feel sorry for someone like her. She has a dog's chance really.

Maybe being in her own place will give her the independence she needs in order to take responsibility and give her some ambition. She is still young.

Bear in mind that LDs do not just mean that you have trouble with academics. They can lead to delays in emotional maturity.

Fontofnowt Thu 27-Feb-14 16:47:07

You looked it up OP?
Maybe channel this enthusiasm about her options into helping her with her kid and set a better example?

Hoppinggreen Thu 27-Feb-14 16:48:47

Mrs D, this person was given every chance believe me.
Her main issue is the fact that she can't be arsed getting out of bed.
Anyone bright enough to figure out how to play the system like this should be able to look after themselves and their child ( who, by the way I really fear for when she no longer lives with her Grandma who actually looks after her)
Should say if I do actually suspect neglect then I will get involved - child is lovely and deserves much better

Hoppinggreen Thu 27-Feb-14 16:52:39

Why would she need my help Font?

Fontofnowt Thu 27-Feb-14 16:54:43

Maybe because she has LD is 20 with 1 and a bit kids and is stuck in a place where she thinks her only route to life is having a new baby?

Hoppinggreen Thu 27-Feb-14 16:59:39

Nothing I can do about any of that ( have tried but she only got pg first time because I did and I " got lots of attention")
She has got people who support her, help her and actually buy her houses and who don't have extreme difficulty in not shouting " grow the fuck up you spoilt brat and think about your daughter" whenever I see her!!
I'm best of keeping out of the way. I'm still outraged that the system allows this, to be honest I'm probably more annoyed at that any one individual.

littlemisssarcastic Thu 27-Feb-14 17:01:40

I feel sorry for this young girl and her DC if what you say is true OP.

plantsitter Thu 27-Feb-14 17:06:11

So what's best then OP? The grandmother continues to spend her life looking after effectively three kids? Or she throws them out with no support whatsoever?

Or that a clearly vulnerable for whatever reason woman gets help to establish herself and learn how to run her own home and family?

Hoppinggreen Thu 27-Feb-14 17:07:03

I doubt you would if you had all the facts but unfortunately I can't give them on a public forum.
Save your sympathy for the child and the future one as well, they DO deserve it and if they ever need anything I will be there like a shot .

MrsDeVere Thu 27-Feb-14 17:09:23

Hopping do you have any experiences of learning disabilities?
When you say she has been given every chance do you mean she has been offered paid employment and turned it down?

You sound jealous.

What mrs de vere said

Who can be fucked being jealous of a 20 year old with 2 kids, no job, and a house she will never own.

How fucking shit does my life have to be to be jealous of that.

Hoppinggreen Thu 27-Feb-14 17:18:42

She has been fired numerous times for not turning up for work and refused to go for interviews when people have tried to help. She also dropped out of several college courses or was thrown put for not turning up because she didn't want to get up,
There have also been numerous other incidents of people paying off debts for her and other things that I can't really go into.
I probably shouldn't have mentioned the SN, she has never been diagnosed or treated and werent picked up on at school but her mum says she can't help the selfishness and other quite terrible behaviour as she has SN and this is the line the rest if the family takes. Apparently she can do whatever she wants because of her " difficulties"
As for jealous? I certainly don't want any part of her life at all but I suppose I may be a bit jealous of someone who has never worked and seems to have a lifestyle better than the one I have worked really hard for.
This whole thread has now turned into me defending how I feel now and I appreciate people who don't know the whole picture might think I'm mean or even " jealous" but anyone who does know that this is just the latest in a long line of the family enduring that this girl will never be able to look after herself and her children because they facilitate her behaviour.

Fontofnowt Thu 27-Feb-14 17:19:03

Aye Laurie how ever hard I try I can only imagine 20 with kids and no future a desperate state.

Hoppinggreen Thu 27-Feb-14 17:19:28

Life's quite good by the way Laurie - it's just been bloody hard getting here!

forbreakfast Thu 27-Feb-14 17:26:04

"I certainly don't want any part of her life at all but I suppose I may be a bit jealous of someone who has never worked and seems to have a lifestyle better than the one I have worked really hard for."

It's just grubby jealousy, usually spouted by those on similar (low) incomes to those on benefits, then (better lifestyle than you, as you say).

I feel sorry for her and her children.

ApprenticeViper Thu 27-Feb-14 17:31:23

If you want to throw a spanner in the works of your relative's "charmed" life, then once the property has been bought and she's moved in, report her to the Housing Benefit Fraud department at her local council. It is a contrived tenancy, created to take advantage of the Housing Benefit scheme.

Alternatively, suck it up and accept that some people do have their path through life smoothed more than others - although if your relative's mother doesn't want two grandchildren living with her, then I'm assuming your relative will be caring for her children herself once she moves out, which will be a wake-up call for her, if nothing else.

MrsDeVere Thu 27-Feb-14 17:33:45

My DS's birth mother sounds like your relative.

Yes she is annoying.
No she has never had an diagnosis.
No I don't like her.
Yes she is a drain on society.

But there are aspects of her behaviour and her personality that she cannot change. You wanting to pretend that the SNs are irrelevant do not make it so.

My DS's birth mother is unemployable due to her behaviour and attitude.

Her behaviour and attitude are very much influenced by her SNs.

Perhaps if she had a different upbringing things could have been different and I am sincerely hoping this is the case for our DS.

But you know what? Some people are a bit hopeless.

Years ago this girl would have very probably been married young and allowed to bumble along having babies and being 'good enough' at life.

But now she has to have job, act as mother and father to her kids, go to parent's evenings, work out complicated bills etc.

Of course the alternative to marrying young and 'just' being a mother and housewife years ago was to have your kids taken off you and being shoved in an institution.

For all our aspirations to equality our society is actually a pretty hard place to negotiate if you have LDs.

But I don't expect you to agree with me.

Hoppinggreen Thu 27-Feb-14 17:43:13

So it looks like to not look like a monumental cow I would need to give far more detail on here than I am able.
My actual point was about the system and how some people are actually doing this person no favours by facilitating her behaviour rather than trying to help her change it for a better life for herself and her children.
If I hadn't mentioned that she may or may not have SN I expect I wouldn't have had such a vicious attack but you live and learn.
One last thing to the person who made assumptions about my income - it's actually pretty good but I work hard for it all and the lifestyle comment was because the person in question has absolutely no outgoings at present and can spend everything she gets on whatever she wants ( plus run up debts in other peoples names but that's another issue). However, if she IS going to live on her own I suppose she will have to change this and learn about budgeting etc - I genuinely hope the family who keep helping her will realise that they are doing her no favours and that one day she will have to manage on her own. Perhaps this will be the making of her?

Fontofnowt Thu 27-Feb-14 17:58:35

I'm not attacking you and if I came across as such I apologise.
I would guess that you are also young and it makes me sad that instead of seeing your family member as needing a hand your instinct is to begrudge her what little she has.
We are being brainwashed into hating people for abusing the system instead of hating the thing that creates the need for the system.
Her life is shit.
Be the better person and shrug off the anger.

joven Thu 27-Feb-14 18:02:22

You don't look like a "monumental cow" to any reasonable minded person. There are just certain people on here who will come down like a tonne of bricks on anybody who is the slightest bit critical of somebody who makes reckless and irresponsible choices.

MrsDeVere Thu 27-Feb-14 18:04:09

No you are not a monumental cow but I think you are wasting far too much energy on this issue.

It is beyond your control.

Unfortunately what font says is true, we are being encouraged to hate and envy those who have less than us instead of being glad we have a better, more productive life.

You don't want to be her
Her life does not impact on yours
It is not up to you to change it.

You sound like you have a successful life. Enjoy it. Move away from this anger about someone who sounds like they have a pretty dreary life with little hope of improvement.

Hoppinggreen Thu 27-Feb-14 18:11:23

Fair enough. I should probably just move on.
I actually don't wish this person ( and def. not her children) a crap life but this will end badly I'm sure based on past experience.
Her life could actually have been ok if the family hadn't just kept saying how she couldn't be held responsible for her ( frankly quite terrible) behaviour and not totally spoiled her.
I am just avoiding them all at the moment

YoureBeingASillyBilly Thu 27-Feb-14 18:11:56

If she's living with her mum the surely the only money she gets will be £20 a week

YoureBeingASillyBilly Thu 27-Feb-14 18:13:05

Whoops- posted too soon.

£20 a week child benefit. Or does she get income support aswel? I suppose she must if she's been told she'd be going onto JSA in september.

EurotrashGirl Thu 27-Feb-14 18:14:56

It sounds like your family member had mental health problems and is reluctant to tell others because of the perceived stigma. This would explain her mother referring to her "difficulties".

MrsDeVere Thu 27-Feb-14 18:27:20

Its pretty tough having a kid with SNs
Knowing how much to push them and how much to protect them is really hard and there will always be someone around to tell you that you are expecting too much or too little from them.

I don't know what is going on with this young woman and the likelihood is that she could have achieved a lot more.

But now she is a young pregnant mother with no work experience and [apparently] undiagnosed SNs

Getting her into gainful employment whilst she manages her own household sounds like it would be too much for her at present.

Sometimes we have to be pragmatic. You can look at it the other way..thank goodness she has people to look out for her.

She is very young. She is not going to keep having children every time JSA is looming. Despite what some posters would have you think this doesn't happen on a wide scale.

BoulevardOfBrokenSleep Thu 27-Feb-14 18:30:51

If you think you've been 'viciously attacked' on here, I'm going to assume you don't spend a lot of time on AIBU grin

Your relative's strategy isn't great long-term, is it...? Having one baby after another to fend off the benefits people is only going to work for so long, and she's not acquiring any training or experience that will enable her to get a job when they grow up.

Plus, the rules on single parents and benefits are likely to get tighter rather than more generous, don't you think?

Plus the thing about getting HB to live in a relative's house, dodgy ground there too.

So very much not a life to envy, no.

Pheonixisrising Thu 27-Feb-14 18:42:59

I don't think you sound a cow
I think you just sound fed up with people facilitating her behaviour and life style without expecting her to help herself.
Special needs or not she must try and learn some responsibility .
Let the housing thing go , it's a safety net I think , so that you can all keep an eye on her whilst she learns to stand on her own two feet

ApocalypseThen Thu 27-Feb-14 19:00:01

I feel very sorry for your relative. It sounds like, for whatever reason, she'll never be able to live unsupported. I understand you don't like her and resent the chances you see as thrown at her and wasted, but it really sounds like she probably does have some extra needs or personal limitations which you are very lucky to not have.

I fear for what will become of her (and her children) when her mother passes away.

Hoppinggreen Thu 27-Feb-14 19:01:24

No need Apocolypse, there are other family members around.
Whatever else we will always ensure the kids are ok

YoureBeingASillyBilly Thu 27-Feb-14 19:05:29

Maybe the rest of the family have the same feelings about her though OP- as in they know they will always make sure she is ok and so are doing just that. Her children will grow up and could have similar issues, you say you will always make sure they are ok- but what if they follow her path? Will you still make sure they are ok?

Cigarettesandsmirnoff Thu 27-Feb-14 19:16:44

Have they got the same surname ?

The benefits will not get paid directly to the landlord. The land lord has to prove there are outstanding rent arrears and tenent are not capable of managing money before that may happen. Speaking from bitter experience. I've had a tenent trot off with two months rent. I've also had a tenent that used the house to grow weed in and never even lived there and benefits paid the rent till we found out.

Sadly, in today's society there are people that see life as an easy ride. Luckily not all people are like this.

Ohwhatfuckeryisthis Thu 27-Feb-14 19:21:01

Regulation 9(1)(l) states the general principle which relates to a determination that a person is to be treated as not liable for his housing costs. This is that HB is not payable where the LA is satisfied that the liability was created to take advantage of the HB scheme. You should note that such an abuse can be on the part of the claimant, the landlord, or both acting together. This provision should be used only where none of the preceding paragraphs apply.

MrsDeVere Thu 27-Feb-14 19:35:32

I don't see the issue here.
Surely it is better for this vulnerable young woman to be renting from a landlord who wants to make sure she is ok?

That way she is not taking a HA or council house or having to deal with the precarious private rented sector.

HB is not going to pay the mortgage unless it is a very cheap house.

And IF it does isn't that what renting out is for? People don't tend to do it for charitable purposes.

If the relative wasn't renting it to her to pay the mortgage he would be renting it to someone else to pay it surely?

Hoppinggreen Thu 27-Feb-14 19:38:17

Relative is buying the house specifically for this purpose.

Hoppinggreen Thu 27-Feb-14 19:39:41

Relative buying house is her sister but has different name as she is married - HB won't even know they are related I wouldn't think.

MrsDeVere Thu 27-Feb-14 19:48:11

I am assuming they can't buy a house and just let her live in it for free so what are they supposed to do?
She is going to have to claim HB if she rents from another private landlord.
Who has bought the house for the specific purpose of renting it out to make money.

PortofinoRevisited Thu 27-Feb-14 20:00:02

Well she, and her 2 small children have to live somewhere, OP. do you have a better or alternative suggestion?

GinSoakedMisery Thu 27-Feb-14 20:12:55

From your op I get:

Young voulnerable woman with mild SN, who is going to have two young children, moving into a private rented property that will have as long a lease as she needs, and help from her family to make best of a bad situation.

Maybe she is making light of her new pregnancy, maybe she is embarrassed about getting pregnant and due to her SN she thinks she is being clever.

Hoppinggreen Thu 27-Feb-14 20:32:25

Well my OP is obviously giving totally the wrong impression then.
As I said earlier there is a lot more to it but I can't give any more details.
Anyway, I suppose people can only judge my post on the info I have given

bochead Thu 27-Feb-14 20:36:23

Wheres the Daddy? gggrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!!

The way the benefits system is going she's likely to find herself cut off completely before she's done raising those kids. Or have you missed the talk about coming UK bank bail ins, hardening social attitudes towards welfare, increased targets for councils to take kids into care etc, etc.

You should pity, not envy her. Tbh I think her well meaning family are setting her up in the long term to suffer and fail miserably. I know you find their enabling behavior irritating - I find it dangerous.

Anyone who still assumes benefits are a safe long term lifestyle choice at this point in time is at best utterly deluded.

lazyhound444 Thu 27-Feb-14 20:39:26

I don't get the point of your thread at all, other than moaning about someone who is a lot worse off than you getting something you don't think she should have. As for the family "facilitating" it, what other choice do they have? Are you advocating some kind of "tough love" where they leave her and her children to fend for themselves when they could easily help her out as they are doing?

Maybe you expected a lot of support for your viewpoint and are having a hard time accepting that people don't agree with you.

If your point is that she's having another child specifically to avoid working then I kind of get your gripe, but only for the sake of the unborn child, nothing else.

SingMoreWhenYoureWinning Thu 27-Feb-14 20:41:25

Scraping by on benefits is a miserable existence.

I just can't get angry about any type of benefit fraud.

I just feel pity for the people who have such low expectations they think it's something to aspire to.

Hoppinggreen Thu 27-Feb-14 20:43:42

Daddy pops in and out when he can be bothered. He works a bit but contributes nothing financially. To be fair he's not a bad person but just a bit useless and he is also getting used to the family handouts meaning he doesn't have to contribute much.
Doubt he will move in officially but he will stay when he wants.
I am currently trying to get her mum to set up a trust as there will be some money when she dies ( in mid 60's now) and it would be a disaster if her daughter got it all in one go - not speculating here its experience.

JoinYourPlayfellows Thu 27-Feb-14 20:48:11

Who can be fucked being jealous of a 20 year old with 2 kids, no job, and a house she will never own.

Presumably nobody.

But I imagine a lot of people would have a problem with her relative exploiting the situation to get a house bought with public money.

That number would include me.

Hoppinggreen Thu 27-Feb-14 20:50:08

Lazy hound, nowhere have I said I am having a hard time accepting people have a different viewpoint.
It's a public forum, people have different opinions, especially since I can't give all the details on here.
It's more the system that annoys me and that one day this person WILL have to stand on her own feet and won't be able to.
I am also concerned about the children. Child she has now is looked after mostly by grandma who she currently lives with.
Also the fact that another family member can get her mortgage paid via HB on a buy to let house annoys me slightly.

YoureBeingASillyBilly Thu 27-Feb-14 21:07:52

You have to declare on your application form if the LL is related to you. A sibling is far too close for there to be any uncertainty about whether it counts as related so unless she intends to lie then HB will know.

MrsDeVere Thu 27-Feb-14 21:09:54

join would you think he was exploiting the situation if he rented it out to an unrelated single mother on benefits?

Like the thousands of landlords who make their living this way?

Genuine question.

IMO there is a real issue with a system in which the people who make money out of it are called entrepreneurs and those who do not actually touch the money themselves i.e. the tenants are blamed for bringing the country to its knees.

balia Thu 27-Feb-14 21:12:50

I used to get twinges of this about DSS's mum - in her 40's, 3 bed house, never worked (really, not a single day and she is now in her 40's) has constant use of her mum's car, holidays paid for by family etc etc. And she has MH issues that could well be made worse by her family enabling her all the time.

BUT - living with OCD must be utterly shit. The 3 bed house is so full of hoarded stuff that she and her DC regularly have to move back in with her mum (and that is 4 of them in a 2 bed house). The only thing she has that is worthwhile in her life are the 2 DC's (her words, BTW, not mine) and one is just about to go off to Uni and DSS says is planning on never coming back and DSS has 3 weekends out of 4 with us and half the holidays and loves it (and was so determined to spend more time with us that he told the CAFCASS officer so) and that must be very hard to deal with.

I'd rather have my life, no question.

Hoppinggreen Thu 27-Feb-14 21:13:08

I think the key Mrs D is that the house is being purchased specifically for this reason. It's being presented as a win win situation. X gets her large 4 bed house all to herself, Y gets a house to live in paid for by the state and Z owns a property with the mortgage paid for by the state!
We are all supposed to applaud this situation.

YoureBeingASillyBilly Thu 27-Feb-14 21:19:45

Z wont have her house paid for by the state. The rules will tighten, the young mum will get older and eventually will have to work, or possibly meet someone and marry/move out/combine incomes. Z is being naive if she thinks she has 25 years of mortgage payments heading her way. That's if the HB even covers the mortgage amount each month. My rent is cheap for my town and even then the HB doesnt cover it all. Never has.

YoureBeingASillyBilly Thu 27-Feb-14 21:22:12

Fwiw im a LP of two dcs currently on benefits and i wouldnt wish it on anyone. It's grim. It's extremely stressful worrying about having enough for electric or food (no heat to worry about as cant afford that anyway). There really is nothing to be jealous of.

BrianTheMole Thu 27-Feb-14 21:27:00

Well, I used to rent my house out to a single mum with a child. The only difference is that I didn't know her. Your family member has got to live somewhere. Better a landlord who has her best interests at heart and won't end her tenancy, thus creating stability for this vulnerable little family. Dontcha think?

MrsDeVere Thu 27-Feb-14 21:52:01

Sorry but this is bollocks. She is a single mother with a baby and a young child.
She will NOT get a four bedroom house paid for. She will get TWO bedrooms paid for.

Who told you this shit?

YoureBeingASillyBilly Thu 27-Feb-14 21:55:33

I think X is the granny in the 4 bed house. mrsD

Hoppinggreen Thu 27-Feb-14 21:56:19

X is her mum, sorry if I'm not being clear.

Laquitar Thu 27-Feb-14 22:00:05

I think that the reason they don't allow the rental from relatives is because everybody then could charge rent for a room to family members. I.e. if your child is 18 and out of work you charge him rent and get the rent from HB? But in this case your child would live in his room anyway.
This girl's case is different. She would rent somewhere anyway. The council would pay her rent anyway. Her sister would rent the house to someone anyway to pay the mortgage. So what difference does it make? Even if you see it from 'our taxes' bs point of view it is still the same. No extra taxes from you.
My guess is that her sister was buying a house to rent anyway.

Hoppinggreen Thu 27-Feb-14 22:01:47

No, she wasn't. How could you possibly guess that when I have repeatedly said that the house is being purchased specifically for this purpose?

Hoppinggreen Thu 27-Feb-14 22:03:41

Also, if her sister wasn't buying a house FOR THIS purpose she would be staying at her mums.
I'm not guessing or making this up - this is what those involved are telling me

YoureBeingASillyBilly Thu 27-Feb-14 22:05:13

Well then her sister is very generous because she'll be taking on a good amount of the mortgage and associated costs to provide her vulnerable sister with a permanent home.

HB will nowhere near pay for the house.

BrianTheMole Thu 27-Feb-14 22:06:01

So what if she wasn't? Your family member still needs to live somewhere. Why do you begrudge the sister being the landlord and getting a profit instead of a stranger? And she will provide more stability because she is the sister. Why do you have an issue with that? Isn't that better for your family member? To have stability for herself and her children. You sound bitter. And jealous. Which looks ugly.

YoureBeingASillyBilly Thu 27-Feb-14 22:06:34

You said her mum told her she has to move out and doesnt want two grandchildren there. So she would be renting somewhere else.

Hoppinggreen Thu 27-Feb-14 22:08:02

I suspect that this " solution" won't actually work out as everyone hopes.
I guess the worst case scenario is everyone ends up back at her mums, so at least they will be safe.
Potential for huge family fallouts though

MrsDeVere Thu 27-Feb-14 22:10:24

Ok sorry.
BUT why is this situation any worse than someone thinking 'I know! I need to make some money, I am going to buy a house and rent it out to HB claimants'

I really don't get why this is different.

Why shouldn't X have her four bedroom house to herself? Its her house and you have already said you think she does to much for the pregnant woman.

It seems to me that this family have a dilemma and they have come up with a solution.

Again...why is it worse for a relative to buy a house and rent it to her than it is for Mr Jones to buy a house in order to rent it to her or someone like her?

People don't tend to accidentally buy to let. They do it on purpose, for a reason, to make money.

Laquitar Thu 27-Feb-14 22:17:15

Well i was guessing this because you are talking about a house not a loaf of bread. In my family we dont buy houses like this. I don't say 'oh dh on your way to tesco could you buy a house please because my brother is out of work this year so i thought it will be a goid idea to buy a house and rent it to him to get his HB'.
Do you buy houses like this in your family?
In any case if you buy a second house you rent it.

MrsDeVere Thu 27-Feb-14 22:20:20

She is buying a house in order to rent it out.

Who she is intending to rent it out to is irrelevant.

She is not doing anything wrong or immoral unless you think all private LL are immoral.

Hoppinggreen Thu 27-Feb-14 22:21:04

Her sister is making money off this situation.
There is somewhere for her to live ( with her mum)
The family have enough money to support her but instead are doing this and taking money from the state to do it.
I am glad we have a system to help people who need it and have no choice but to rely on it. This is where someone is making a choice TO rely on it. I suppose for me I believe that if your family are able to help they should rather than rely on the government to do it.
This is why it annoys me, especially since I am supposed to think that this is all great news!!

BrianTheMole Thu 27-Feb-14 22:25:54

But the family member is an adult. So she is entitled to claim in her own right. Because she doesn't have any money of her own. Why should her mother be forced to keep an adult with two children in her own house when she doesn't want to. Would you expect your mother to take you and your family in and support you permanently if something went wrong? Or would you claim benefits that you would be entitled to?

YoureBeingASillyBilly Thu 27-Feb-14 22:26:04

Unless sister had a tidy deposit and a fixed rate for the next 25 years then she wont be making money off it. Trust me. I dont know any HB claimant who doesnt have to top up their hb money to make the rent payment. So the sister can set the rent low but unless her mortgage is v low she will have to pay the rest herself.

Laquitar Thu 27-Feb-14 22:26:11

I thought you wanted her to not rely on her mum?

YoureBeingASillyBilly Thu 27-Feb-14 22:29:10

Ok OP- lets say this woman decides today that she wants to work and support herself. That's not going to happen tomorrow is it? She'll have to train in something, job hunt, have her baby, all before she is bringing in a wage- she needs to live somewhere in the meantime as her mum wont have her. Where does she go? It make sense that her sister helps her out if she is able and wants to.

MrsDeVere Thu 27-Feb-14 22:30:06

But this woman is an adult.
Her mother does not have to support her and nor does any other family member.
Her mum does not want to have the responsibility of having her adult daughter and two young children living rent free in her house.
I am confused.
On the one hand you say they have enabled her by doing too much but now they are doing wrong by not financially supporting her.

Do support adult members of your family financially?

You are not making any sense.

No one is saying you should think this is great news or applaud it.

They are saying you should back off and concentrate on your own life instead of worrying what other people are doing.

Hoppinggreen Thu 27-Feb-14 22:31:56

So it seems AIBU but I can't help being annoyed I'm supposed to think that this is all wonderful for all involved.
Off to bed, night all

EverythingCounts Thu 27-Feb-14 22:32:17

Just say 'Yes, yes, lovely', when anyone in the family speaks of any of it and don't get drawn into any further discussion. I sympathise with your viewpoint (while also thinking that this girl's life is nothing to get envious about) but it will do no good, ever, to say how you feel about it. You will then end up as the bad guy and that would be harsh. So keep your thoughts to yourself and just wait for events to take their course. I would bet that in 10 years' time there'll be a lot less reason to resent any of it.

WeekendsAreHappyDays Thu 27-Feb-14 22:33:40

Can someone explain contrived tenancy - Ive been thinking of something similar - I want an investment property and i have a distant cousin who rents from a shitty landlord on a hpuse with damp - I was debating getting her a nice house so she had a nice longterm home (obviously I hope long term she will have a home of her own).

It just seemed a win win situation.

I didnt actually realise it was illegal or frowmed upon.

Cigarettesandsmirnoff Fri 28-Feb-14 08:24:27

It dosnt matter that the house was specifically bought for her, she is entitled to the HB.

I don't see the problem with it at all.

It seems you are pissed off as she has had an easy ride.

She will come down to earth with a bump as benefits ae not that much and she will probably struggle . She will probably go down the route of trotting off to bright house or other rip off lenders for a swanky settee and a plasma, then you can moan she has better tv than you.

The reality is she probably won't pay the lenders, her credit will be shit and she won't have a pot to piss in.

Cigarettesandsmirnoff Fri 28-Feb-14 08:28:56

weekend we have a few properties and it's a PITA. Think very carefully about it. It's not as easy as it seems.

Hoppinggreen Fri 28-Feb-14 09:24:40

Somehow it seems I have given everyone the impression that I want this family to have a shit life and will be happy when this all goes hideously wrong. That's not the case at all.
What I want ( and will never get I know) is as follows
Family not to take advantage of the benefits system
The children to be well looked after
People to stop telling me how wonderful this situation is and that I'm miserable for not agreeing enthusiastically.

BrianTheMole Fri 28-Feb-14 09:49:43

Would you not use the benefits system if you needed to then op? What would you do for money? Would you ask your parents to pay your bills instead?

Cigarettesandsmirnoff Fri 28-Feb-14 09:55:57

Who do you think is at fault?

The prospective landlord or the tenent ?

If your worried about kids call SS.

Would you react like this is relative bought house to let and the let it to some one else on benefits?

Do you think private landlords should not let to benefits?

I think you are being miserable and jealous

Hoppinggreen Fri 28-Feb-14 10:04:04

I will be monitoring the situation and if I feel the children aren't being looked after then I will be taking action.
Why is it if you don't approve of someone's actions you are automatically assumed to be jealous?
I am not going into details about my life on here but believe me it's pretty good and I wouldn't want any part of this other persons life.
The only bit that I suppose could be construed as jealousy is the fact that this person does what she wants when she wants with no thought fior anyone else and other people pick up the pieces and I am very self sufficient - so I suppose it would be nice to just think " fuck it, I'm doing this and someone else will sort it out if it goes wrong and there will be no consequences for me"
I think my main issue is being badgered to agree that this whole shitstorm is wonderful and even not commenting at all isn't enough apparently - I'm supposed to offer congratulations all round.

forbreakfast Fri 28-Feb-14 10:18:30

"Why is it if you don't approve of someone's actions you are automatically assumed to be jealous?"

Oh I don't know. This perhaps:

"I suppose I may be a bit jealous of someone who has never worked and seems to have a lifestyle better than the one I have worked really hard for."

HobbetInTheHeadlights Fri 28-Feb-14 10:25:22

I don't get this.

Sound like the family are trying to step back and get this woman to take on more responsibility and take it off the GM - perhaps there are underlying reasons for this getting to much for her or perhaps she has just had enough.

Yes they are using their financial resource to do this - buying a house - but many private landlords won't take HB claimants and social housing takes year to come though.

Perhaps that the only way to do it perhaps the family couldn't make a vulnerable 20 with 2 DC homeless as they would need to do to access help. Plus this way they can keep a good eye on the DC and see they are cared for.

I think the sister is taking a huge risk - her sister might be a very poor tenant she may well end up having issue with getting HB and will it be enough to cover mortgage and if she doesn't get it and can she affor the house in those circumstances.

If you don't agree don't comment on it and change the subject or leave the room - or alternatively tell them you don't agree and deal with the consequences of that.

HobbetInTheHeadlights Fri 28-Feb-14 10:30:42

Oh I've spent years hearing about my parents bail out older sibling from yet another financial mess and being told how the help out younger sibling constantly with childcare and small amount of cash.

Best thing for my sanity - disengage and try and avoid the topic.

Nothing I said change the way my parents dealt with them - and I had no power to intervene. So not engaging in situations that I didn't agree with and yes - did feel a little jealous with - only control I had/have and best thing for me not being wound up with stuff I couldn't change.

BrianTheMole Fri 28-Feb-14 10:33:06

So you're jealous of the sister whose going to take on on the hassles of being a landlord. And you're jealous of the family member who has no money, has sn and two kids at age 20. But fortunately will have somewhere to live. Or maybe you're jealous because you want to be a landlord yourself.

And you still haven't answered the question. Would you claim benefits yourself if you needed to? If not, how would you live?

Hoppinggreen Fri 28-Feb-14 11:10:25

Right, last comment from me on here.
Title of thread was AIBU to be bloody annoyed. I am talking about how I FEEL about this.
I am not marching down to HB to demand they investigate, I am not rounding up a mob complete with pitchforks and flaming torches, I am not actually doing anything other than venting on a public forum about a situation I personally don't agree with - it's hardly stabbing kittens is it?
I personally don't feel this situation is right, I don't actually have an alternative suggestion at this point and if I did nobody would listen to me anyway because this is all wonderful, deliberately having another baby to avoid working is wonderful and we should all rush round to congratulate everyone on how clever they have been.
As for the benefits questions - if I can afford to then yes I would support my children rather than them claim benefits and yes I would claim them myself if I had no other option but NO I wouldn't deliberately engineer a situation to take advantage of the system.

HermioneWeasley Fri 28-Feb-14 11:19:56

The world had gone mad. It should not be an option not to work if you can work, and you say she's secured roles and then been fired from them due to reliability.

The welfare state shouldn't be a lifestyle choice.

KitZacJak Fri 28-Feb-14 11:50:50

YABU - It looks as if her mother is making her face up to her responsibilities by moving out so I am not sure you could say she is facilitating her now. If the mother carried on with her at home and doing everything for her that would be facilitating her! She will get a shock when she has to do everything for herself and hopefully it will be the making of her.

Regarding the housing benefit, she would be paying one landlord or another so why not a relation? It is not illegal (I don't think) as that relative could easily rent to another person on housing benefit so why not her?

sashh Sat 01-Mar-14 07:11:31

Relative buying house is her sister but has different name as she is married - HB won't even know they are related I wouldn't think.

They do ask on the form so wither they will know or she will be committing fraud.

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