To think that if you are grown man at a swimming pool dressing your small daughter...

(338 Posts)
2cats2many Tue 04-Feb-14 19:09:37

..you should use the clearly marked, clean and almost-empty family change room rather than the women's change room?

I approached him and said quietly: "Do you know that you are in the women's change room?" To which he replied: "Yes, but she insists in coming in here and the alternative would be a big, screaming fight. I'm actually quite uncomfortable." He then made a swift exit.

Well, guess what- so are all the women who are using the changing room in the reasonable expectation that they would be able to get showered and changed in the mostly shared facilities (just a few cubicles) without being joined by a man.

In his position, I would have the big screaming fight.

foreverondiet Tue 04-Feb-14 19:11:15

OMG! Can't believe he thought it was acceptable!!!!

meditrina Tue 04-Feb-14 19:11:56

YANBU.

There are family changing rooms.

He needs to deal with the fight with his DD, not - as an adult man - to go into female changing rooms.

phantomnamechanger Tue 04-Feb-14 19:12:06

what a weirdo! did you not report him, or was he just leaving anyway?

Ifcatshadthumbs Tue 04-Feb-14 19:12:41

I think I would have reported him to a member of staff and told him to grow a pair and deal with the screaming fit.

Megrim Tue 04-Feb-14 19:13:11

YANBU.

Your swimming pool should have an "adult males allowed only in the male changing room / adult females only allowed in the female changing room" policy.

As a swimming club administrator I have had to have an adult female hauled out of the male changing rooms (and have a stand up row with her about it).

ALittleStranger Tue 04-Feb-14 19:13:51

YANBU, obviously.

missymayhemsmum Tue 04-Feb-14 19:14:23

Poor bloke!
Total screaming tantrum from small daughter or be branded a peeping tom. What a choice!

YANBU, I hope you complained?

2cats2many Tue 04-Feb-14 19:15:14

I know. Its just crazy.

To be honest, I didn't want to make his daughter uncomfortable, but if I see him in there again next week at the same time, I am going to tell him that I'll have to tell the staff if he keeps coming in. Its totally not on in my opinion.

YABU

ALittleStranger Tue 04-Feb-14 19:16:24

Does AIBU have some kind of tedious dissent quota? hmm

RandomMess Tue 04-Feb-14 19:16:44

FGS if those were the options I would have got her dressed at the side of the pool - even if it was just clothes over top of cossie and shoes on!!!

I suppose I would have given the dd 2 "acceptable" options.

Yanbu. Changing rooms at our pool have signs up saying no members of the opposite sex over 8yo.

aquashiv Tue 04-Feb-14 19:18:24

Our swimming pool has the family change in the ladies
silly planning

2cats2many Tue 04-Feb-14 19:19:08

Why unreasonable HappyMamaBear? Does everyone else in the leisure centre have to bend to the whim of a 4 year old as well as her dad?

No it's absolutely not on.

Imagine being a woman and your ds insisting on going into a men only changing room; you'd take the screaming abdabs all bloody day !!

How odd.

lougle Tue 04-Feb-14 19:21:20

It's difficult. I take my DDs to swimming lessons and there is always a lady in the ladies changing rooms who brings her DS (around 6-7, but with SN) into the changing rooms and changes him there, so that she can help him and keep an eye on her DD.

The trouble is that my DD, also 6, possibly with SN (ongoing investigation/suspicion) gets absolutely distressed that this boy is in the changing rooms because he might see her. So, I and DD1's carer, have to try and get DD1 (who is 8 with SN -special school), DD3 (4) and DD2 changed, while DD2 is going into meltdown because there is only one toilet and an open changing area, with nowhere to 'hide' from this boy.

As a parent of a child with SN myself, I can see why the lady feels she must bring her DS in. But the question I ask is 'in this situation, is the gender of the 'changer' or the gender of the 'changee' the important factor?'

Goldmandra Tue 04-Feb-14 19:21:24

I wouldn't be waiting to see if he does it again before speaking to the staff. I would let them know about this conversation and ask them to have someone in the changing room at the appropriate time next week to deal with it.

Stuff whether he is comfortable. It's not about his needs or his daughter's wishes.

He's in for a rough ride when she's a teenager!

2cats2many Tue 04-Feb-14 19:25:28

Bit lougle in your scenario at my swimming pool you could all use the family change area which has large family-sized cubicles to get changed in together, but in privacy. No one would have to be in the ladies or the mens if they didn't want to be.

ALittleStranger Tue 04-Feb-14 19:26:27

Lougle with respect that's a different conversation, one regarding whether the rules that hold in 99% of swimming pools about children under eight being allowed in the "wrong" changing rooms are appropriate.

candycoatedwaterdrops Tue 04-Feb-14 19:27:50

It's not that he would have been accused of being a peeping tom but many woman would prefer not to change in front of a man!

RubyrooUK Tue 04-Feb-14 19:30:46

I'm obviously soft. I don't think he should have come in. But as the parent of small children, I would assume he had made a dumb decision through a fog of sleep deprivation and/or a moment of stress when faced with a tantrum. You told him that he shouldn't be in there, he left. I would only be annoyed if he hadn't got the message on a subsequent occasion.

Pimpf Tue 04-Feb-14 19:31:08

I don't think I'd be having a quiet word, I would have complained straight away to a member of staff. Utterly ridiculous that an adult is letting a child dictate to them.

WitchWay Tue 04-Feb-14 19:33:09

He needs to stand up to his daughter - wonder if he only sees her at weekends & doesn't like to refuse anything

AuntieStella Tue 04-Feb-14 19:34:46

When there is a family changing area, there is no need whatsoever for sexes to be in the 'wrong' sex changing room.

He WBVVVU.

thenamestheyareachanging Tue 04-Feb-14 19:34:59

lougle there is no family change area at our swimming pool and I take my 7yo ds into the ladies, but send him into his own cubicle. I feel he's oo young to send into the men's alone. MNers usually have a fit when I say I send my children to the toilet alone when we're out and about, in certain places - are changing rooms different somehow? I feel it's less safe.

Wingdingdong Tue 04-Feb-14 19:35:02

I'd have gone apeshit if I - or even my 4yo DD - had been naked/mid-change in the communal changing room and a man had walked in, with ir without his small DD! Regardless of his DD's wishes, he's not allowed in the women's changing room. End of. And if he can't control his DD in a changing room, should he really be taking her swimming?

youbethemummylion Tue 04-Feb-14 19:35:27

Never mind the fact he shouldnt have been there which he shouldnt that poor 4yr old is going to be heading for a shock when she encounters an adult who doesnt bend to her every whim!

frogs Tue 04-Feb-14 19:37:29

I think he needs to be told, "She's 4, you're 40, which of you is actually in charge?"

hmm

Wingdingdong Tue 04-Feb-14 19:37:34

DH says 'better the big screaming fight than going on the Sex Offenders' Register' grin

namechangesforthehardstuff Tue 04-Feb-14 19:42:03

I don't think we can assume he was telling the truth about his DD.

'Hello. Are you a massive pervert? '

'Um, no I'm a poor downtrodden father'

'Oh OK then'

grin

lljkk Tue 04-Feb-14 19:43:40

ime most British women wouldn't be caught dead letting any important body bits showing even if the room is supposed to be females only, so he wouldn't have a chance of seeing anything interesting anyway. Sorry, I really don't see a likely problem.

foreverondiet Tue 04-Feb-14 19:44:22

In response to the person changing the child with SN - well I think that above a certain age (8-10) it's just not appropriate to take a child into the opposite sex changing room so either you need to find a man to take a SN boy or need to find a pool with mixed changing areas (ie where it's all cubicles) or find a pool with family changing or go at a special time etc. If your child is distressed by a 7 year old boy in the woman's changing room well thats difficult but IMO it's fine for him to be there at that age - even children without SN would find it hard to get changed on their own.

namechangesforthehardstuff Tue 04-Feb-14 19:46:09

I am SO naked in the wouldn't changing rooms. LOADS to see here. wink

namechangesforthehardstuff Tue 04-Feb-14 19:46:39

Women's. Obv.

ALittleStranger Tue 04-Feb-14 19:47:08

Lljkk I think you're frequenting a very unusual swimming pool. Apart from one with only communal changing areas, every one that I've been to has had loads of "interesting" parts on display.

RubyrooUK Tue 04-Feb-14 19:48:47

Our swimming pool has unisex showers in the family section. I met a whole naked family in there recently. Mum, dad, son and two daughters (all over the age of six-ish).

I was a bit surprised but possibly this sort of experience has made me less shocked at the idea of the dad in the wrong changing room. grin

Pimpf Tue 04-Feb-14 19:52:46

I remember a dad trying to take his daughter into the girls changing rooms, when I stopped him, he asked where was he supposed to change her, how about in the men's changing room, you're not allowed in here

MaxPepsi Tue 04-Feb-14 19:55:32

I couldn't care less.

Our newly built leisure centre has changing rooms. That's it. No female rooms. No male rooms. Only one lot of showers.....in full view of the pool

lljkk Tue 04-Feb-14 19:57:02

ime, British women don't get naked in front of each other. They stand with bras on & nipples 3 mm from the wall when changing tops, nobody showers after sport no matter how sweaty unless it's in a private cubicle. Sit down for changing trousers or creep into the wall paint again.

The exception were Loughborough Uni club swimmers; they chased each around the changing room starkers howling in laughter. Quite refreshing.

Ubik1 Tue 04-Feb-14 19:59:25

Ha ha

I bet he just died on the way home...in a what was I thinking kind of way

Do you think his wife was like: "You Did What?"

ALittleStranger Tue 04-Feb-14 20:00:44

Max if it's anything like the newly built swimming pool with cubicles on the pool side that I'm thinking of, the the difference is that it's very clearly a communal changing area, with cubicles only. The OP is talking about a ladies' changing room, where women would expect to be able to walk around naked. As soon as an area is designated single sex people expect it to be treated as such.

OnGoldenPond Tue 04-Feb-14 20:01:43

Speak for yourself, lljkk, if you walked into the changing rooms when I am getting changed you would get a proper eyeful! grin

OP, YANBU that father should get a grip and control his DD, not make it everyone else's problem that she is a spoiled brat.

IamInvisible Tue 04-Feb-14 20:03:20

YANBU. He should not have been in there imo.

He, also, needs to realise he's the adult and in charge, so screaming fit or not, what he says goes!

Sunshineonsea Tue 04-Feb-14 20:04:52

Yanbu!
The first time I used the changing facilites in my new local freaked me out, it's an all in one affair with cubicles, I still can't get used to it and change as quick as possible

grin Ubik

OP I think I would point out that there are family changing rooms if his DD doesn't want to go into the men's next time you see him. And after that complain.

I don't think it's fair for him to be in there. Although I did once go into a men's toilet with DS who insisted. I did a quick glance and checked first though and it was totally empty so not exactly the same!

cjel Tue 04-Feb-14 20:06:36

This should be reported. He should not have been in there and they probably have a room he could change in if he asked. His dd shouldn't be in the mens at her age either.

MaxPepsi Tue 04-Feb-14 20:09:02

I know she was. I still wouldn't have given a shit if a man was in there with his young daughter.

I would still walk around naked.

Aliama Tue 04-Feb-14 20:09:21

While I agree YANBU, I do feel a bit sorry for the poor man. I bet he was petrified. (I'm assuming he didn't just waltz into the ladies without checking to see if anyone was in there first, of course. If he did then shock)

CrohnicallyFarting Tue 04-Feb-14 20:17:15

I guess it's scenarios like this that have led to the unisex changing rooms becoming more common. Though the first time I went into our swimming pool's changing rooms I realised there were men in there and thought I'd walked into the wrong ones! I have to say though, it's handy when I take DD swimming and can hand her over to DH while I get sorted and vice versa. Much easier than being on your own and having to choose between DD getting cold (if I change first) and DD getting all wet again (if she changes first as I have to let her stand on the floor while I change).

Just think you are making it into a big huge deal when it really isn't.

ShatzePage Tue 04-Feb-14 20:32:09

Yabu-do you honestly think he was in there to have a perve or something? ffs whats the big hang up with nakedness. I honestly could not give a shit if the changing rooms were unisex and every walked about naked.

RevoltingPeasant Tue 04-Feb-14 20:33:07

I do not understand what Reporting Him will do. Why can people just not have civilised conversations with other adults on here? Why does everything have to go through managers?

OP, you told him you didn't think he should be in there. He basically agreed and left. He was BU. Job done. Do you want him to be questioned or watched next time he comes?

Just leave it. Unless you see him in there again, that's when you report!

When Ds2.goes to his swimming lesson i have to take him into the mens. He is 8 and apparently too old to use womens and i hate having to.nip into mens with him but there is no family changing room.

That said it is at a school and is during childrens lessons so a different situation.Op YANBU if there us a family space he can use. He must realise it makes others uncomfortable and his dd will need to learn from him surely that other peoples feelings need to be taken into account!

NewtRipley Tue 04-Feb-14 20:35:12

lijkk

Not at most places I've been. Women letting it all hang out in a most un-British way left right and centre

ErrolTheDragon Tue 04-Feb-14 20:39:30

YANBU. This is why public facilities nowadays usually have family changing rooms (or lots of cubicles, some big enough for parent and children).

Just possibly he hadn't realised that there was a family room? But if he had and he was in the ladies because Little Madam had thus decreed, then he should obviously have taken her into the family room and if big screaming fight started, marched her off home without her swim.

CrohnicallyFarting Tue 04-Feb-14 20:40:38

AppleCrumples- if your DS is too old to use the women's changing rooms, surely you are too old to be going into the men's? Can't your DS change by himself? If you're worried about anything inappropriate happening (unlikely if there are lots of other children changing, surely) then you could wait outside with the door propped a little so you can hear. The vast majority of our year 3/4 children can change themselves, the exception being if they have SENs- and if your son has SEN meaning he can't manage then you need to ask if there are any facilities for the disabled that you could use.

litdog Tue 04-Feb-14 20:42:57

YABU.

We have a child with SN who loves swimming but gets v stressed out by the changing rooms and every time we go it's a battle.

Our daughter always wants to go into the group changing rooms, which are usually locked, and has a meltdown if they're locked and we can't get in.

As a result I often end up changing her in the CORRIDOR leading to the changing room. We must look bloody weird, esp as she doesn't look that obviously 'different' to other children, but I will go to any lengths to avoid a hideous screaming meltdown when she gets upset.

I have other children who do not have special needs and I would never do this with them because they can understand, but our DD doesn't understand.

I honestly can't see what the problem is for the OP. My heart goes out to this man.

If having a SN child has taught me anything, it's not to judge and to be more understanding of others.

Sorry if I sound angry but I am.

GobbySadcase Tue 04-Feb-14 20:43:25

My local pool has unisex changing (all cubicles). Much better I think.

littleredsquirrel Tue 04-Feb-14 20:44:09

Applecrumble surely its better for him to be in the ladies with you than for you to be in the mens with him. He's only eight.

DS1 comes into the womens' changing rooms with me and the womens loos with me if we're out. There is no family changing rooms and I'm not sending him alone into the mens.

Liara Tue 04-Feb-14 20:53:39

It wouldn't bother me in the least.

He's changing his daughter. She wants to get changed where the women get changed.

I frankly find it more acceptable than changing a little girl in the men's changing rooms.

I have been at gyms where men aren't allowed in the family changing area, because there might be naked women there. I can guarantee you, fathers have seen it all before, so what's that all about.

I just think everyone in the UK needs to stop feeling like nudity is such a big fucking deal. They are only bodies, people, and they are just not that fucking interesting, clothed or not.

Misspixietrix Tue 04-Feb-14 20:55:31

He is actually the first bloke I've come across that has took his DC OUT as opposed to staying at home etc. You ever thought he might be new to all of this? I.e single Dad etc. confused.

TheCrackFox Tue 04-Feb-14 21:04:22

For heaven's sake, it is an everyday occurrence for a man to take his children swimming.

Of course he shouldn't have been in the bloody women's changing room. If his DD was going to have a tantrum then frankly he needs to tough it out.

NatashaBee Tue 04-Feb-14 21:11:40

YANBU, if there's adequate family changing rooms for him to use.

2cats2many Tue 04-Feb-14 21:15:35

To everyone who is in doubt, the family change facilities at this pool are large, clean, always open, clearly labelled as Family Change and have large family sized cubicles in which men can change their children privately.

This blokes problem wasn't that he didn't know they existed or where they were. The problem was that he didn't want to have to deal with his daughter's tantrum so prioritised his own and his dd's comfort over the comfort of the women who had chosen to change (communal, open plan change) in the women's only changing room.

And just because some people on here dont feel uncomfortable being naked in front of a strange man, it doesn't necessarily follow that everyone else should feel that way.

Maybe he'll go to the family change next time. If he doesn't, I'm complaining to the staff. He shouldn't bloody be in there!

ErrolTheDragon Tue 04-Feb-14 21:20:10

>He's changing his daughter. She wants to get changed where the women get changed

But she's not a woman - she's a little girl who needs to be accompanied. So whether she likes it or not, the appropriate place is the family room.

If we lived in a world where women weren't routinely objectified then maybe we could dispense with segregated changing rooms - but for now, there are valid reasons why many women prefer them.

FinnTheHuman Tue 04-Feb-14 21:21:25

YANBU, I did find another swimming pool to take my children to as my son was too old to come in the changing rooms with me, but he is awkwardly shy and hated managing the changing rooms on his own.

So we found a hotel with a decent pool and unisex changing rooms with individual cubicles. Until I found this swimming was off our activity list for well over a year.

ErrolTheDragon Tue 04-Feb-14 21:22:47

>Maybe he'll go to the family change next time
hopefully after this encounter he will. For one thing, he'll be able to tell his DD that he got told off last time.

VegetariansTasteLikeChicken Tue 04-Feb-14 21:28:36

I frankly find it more acceptable than changing a little girl in the men's changing rooms.

Um why? because little girls don't want to get undressed in front of strange men? Yes, that's why it was inappropriate for him to go in the women's changing room!

PlumpPartridge Tue 04-Feb-14 21:29:43

My DH usually goes against the tide of MN opinion and even he thinks the man was BU. I take that as an indicator of how clear-cut the case is grin

Seriously, the reverse (woman taking her DS into the men's changing room for fear of mega-tantrum) just Would Not Happen.

VegetariansTasteLikeChicken Tue 04-Feb-14 21:30:55

It's also a everyday occurence for men to be able to read a sign that says "women's changing room"

It really doesn't matter if you enjoy walking around nude, you can make that choice. Some poor women walking out of a cubicle who doesn't know there will be a strange man in the room didn't get that choice.

CrohnicallyFarting Tue 04-Feb-14 21:30:57

Litdog- that feels different to me, as it is your daughter who is 'on display' as it were. Not an adult intruding into the wrong gendered changing rooms and potentially seeing other, non consenting, adults' bodies.

PS have you tried asking for a member of staff to unlock the rooms for you and explaining about your daughter's SN? Again it makes me grateful for our swimming baths, the two I use most often both have designated changing rooms/cubicles for people with disabilities.

SomethingkindaOod Tue 04-Feb-14 21:36:42

I notice 2 posters assume the man is a single disney type dad? Nice attitude... For the record many men take their children out at the weekend and after school on a regular basis, nice to know that DH is probably mentally labeled a single parent when he's out and about with one or all of our 3!
Anyway, the guy made a mistake in pandering to a 4 year old, he was probably mortified enough to never go near the wrong changing room again, if he even gets the courage to walk through the door of the swimming pool at all!
He should have gone into the family room, hopefully lesson learnt.

crohnically he does change by himself but i still want to ensure he ends up poolside safely! FWIW at that time both rooms are fairly mixed.

littlered when we started going i thought it was probably better for him to use womens with me but the school policy is over 8s in own sex changing room. He changes himself etc and wikk be using the same pool when he starts the school swimming lessons.

AS i said though its a different situation and when go swimming together we go to the main leisure centre which is unisex and much easier!

"And just because some people on here dont feel uncomfortable being naked in front of a strange man, it doesn't necessarily follow that everyone else should feel that way."

^^ This.

I would guess most women would not want to be seen naked by men other than their families, indeed for some it may be a major issue.

poopadoop Tue 04-Feb-14 21:54:22

and for all you know, she also has SN and her tantrums are absolutely unbearable. I feel sorry for him. You're weirdos for seeing a perve around every corner

Goldmandra Tue 04-Feb-14 21:58:28

and for all you know, she also has SN and her tantrums are absolutely unbearable.

That makes no difference to whether he should be in the women's changing rooms.

There are other strategies he could reasonably apply to minimise meltdowns but this isn't one of them.

ProudAS Tue 04-Feb-14 22:10:32

What about other little girls with SN like the child mentioned earlier in this thread who was having meltdowns over a boy in the changing room - never mind a grown man!

What about teenage girls who may be feeling self conscious?

What about ladies who expect female changing rooms to be just that?

I'm not saying this man was a pervert but grown men have no place in women's changing rooms. His DD may have SN but that doesn't mean she should automatically get her own way.

cjel Tue 04-Feb-14 22:33:16

My family has a lot of history running pools and this man was wrong on so many levels, the staff should have been told and he has to realise that his daughters wishes don't come above the rules by which he uses the facility or the feelings of other pool users.
There were perfectly good family changing facilities he should have used,I can't believe all the people here who are thinking its ok for a man to go in like this when he has a family changing room.
Would he let her go in the deep end as a non swimmer and expect a lifeguard to save her? what about if she wouldn't get out and wanted to wee or poo in the water instead, or eat and drink and drop crumbs in the water? how far does not following the rules matter. It has nothing to do with whether he would see someones body or not, he was using a public pool which has regulations for use and he broke them.
You should definitely mention it to staff when you go again, they will want to know.

TaraKnowles Tue 04-Feb-14 22:33:48

My local pool has changing rooms for;

Mothers and children

Little girls

Women

Men

Little boys

Fathers and children

If it was cubicles or common changing rooms I would have to make an age related decision, but I would never go into a mens changing area. ds would have to be the one who compromised over that. yanbu

Primafacie Tue 04-Feb-14 22:35:32

AppleCrumbles, sorry but I really don't get it - what do you mean by 'get poolside safely'?

Sorry if I am being thick, but I cannot get my head around an 8 year old child not having SN but needing assistance with changing at the pool. Maybe because my 2 year old DS insists on privacy when he's in the loo grin

cjel Tue 04-Feb-14 22:38:53

8 is a perfectly reasonable age to expect a child to be able to change themselves, I spend a lot of time at pools and they may come out with towels and trunks dragging on the floor, clothes sticking to them because the didn't dry properly and hair a mess but they managesmile

Misspixietrix Tue 04-Feb-14 22:45:24

Seriously. Read the bloody post! I said the situation might be new to him. If not the situation could have been the environment etc. So what we Parents we get things wrong sometimes? He brought her in because he wanted to avoid a meltdown not 'avoid dealing with a tantrum'. OP told him he should not have done. He left and he will know for next time. It isn't like he chained himself to the bloody doorhandles and demanded equal rights is it? hmm. If he was to do it again OP (which I doubt) then simply complain to the Manager and any other relevant person. I'm sure they will explain to him in simpler terms why taking his DD in the woman's changing room isn't such a good idea.

LessMissAbs Tue 04-Feb-14 22:45:38

Quite possible he was just thick and ignorant as opposed to a perv.

I do the continental full naked changing in the swimming pool, so it wouldn't have been very nice for someone like me!

JoinYourPlayfellows Tue 04-Feb-14 22:45:38

I frankly find it more acceptable than changing a little girl in the men's changing rooms.

confused

Do you feel the same about little boys in the women's changing room?

Or is it just that you believe that men are such disgusting pervs that NO children should ever get changed in a male-only changing room?

I really wonder about this because the logical conclusion of some of these threads seems to be that only disgusting pervs (i.e. men that are not with children) could be expected to use the male changing room.

And that as a result, a female-only space for women to get changed (out of the view of said pervs) must also accommodate teenage boys and fathers with either gender of child.

It's totally fucking bizarre.

Misspixietrix Tue 04-Feb-14 22:55:22

LessMissAbs grin.

Misspixietrix Tue 04-Feb-14 22:56:20

Imgogoing with the 'bit thick' reasoning too.

cjel Tue 04-Feb-14 22:58:06

I'm more likely to go with the 'entitled idiot' than just thick!! If he thinks his dd allows him to break rules everyone else sticks to.

My DH always refused point blank to take DD into the men's changing room (he is happy to take DS). He said that there were lots of hairy men wandering around with their willies on display. I bowed to his superior knowledge - he is not usually squeamish, so I assumed that he had good reason to feel uncomfy.

The Dad really should have just taken his DD in the family changing room. It does sound as though he had a bit of a moment - was so focused on his DD's tantrum that he completely forgot the other users, before realising what he had done. Or is that being too kind to him?

AroundTheGlobe Tue 04-Feb-14 23:03:05

I think some of you are quite harsh and judgemental to talk about the DD,

She's in for a shock when people bend to her whim
He needs to stand up to his daughter
She's get a nasty surprise when she grows up.

None of us know the first thing about this child or why she didnt want to go in the male changing room. Also I'm quite sure we've backed down at some point to our children just for an easy life.

Goldmandra Tue 04-Feb-14 23:05:49

Also I'm quite sure we've backed down at some point to our children just for an easy life.

No. I can honestly say I have never been pressured into doing something this inconsiderate or inappropriate in order to avoid a tantrum and I have two children with Autism.

Misspixietrix Tue 04-Feb-14 23:06:23

Precisely what I was trying to say MrsCakes but yes its being too nice to him. <sighs>.

Pimpf Tue 04-Feb-14 23:08:23

I can't believe some posters dont think the dad did anything wrong

Primafacie Tue 04-Feb-14 23:08:56

Yes I've backed down to my children, but never to the point where it would have made me walk into a roomful of naked strangers of opposite sex.

None of us know the first thing about this child or why she didn't want to go in the male changing room.

But it wasn't a choice between using the male or female changing rooms. It was a choice between using the family changing room (clean and private) or the public female changing room.

Misspixietrix Tue 04-Feb-14 23:10:11

Goldmandra yes it was inconsiderate but has it occurred to some on this thread that he simply, maybe, just didn't think. When OP told him he left. Now if he had stayed I would say he was inconsiderate. He didn't.

Primafacie Tue 04-Feb-14 23:12:55

Re-reading my post, perhaps I'm missing a trick here. grin

Pimpf Tue 04-Feb-14 23:15:14

Sorry I don't buy that pixie. At what point did he think it ok to be in a women's changing room, who in their right mind would think that's acceptable?

AroundTheGlobe Tue 04-Feb-14 23:15:55

No. I can honestly say I have never been pressured into doing something this inconsiderate or inappropriate in order to avoid a tantrum and I have two children with Autism.

But I'm not talking about the dad or saying this justifies his actions. I'm saying I think the comments about little girl are harsh, as most of us have given in to our children at some point - doesn't mean that they are in for a shock when they got older etc

Goldmandra Tue 04-Feb-14 23:16:35

has it occurred to some on this thread that he simply, maybe, just didn't think.

He did think and he decided that avoiding the tantrum was more important than following the convention of not entering a female only changing room. He explained this quite clearly to the OP.

Misspixietrix Tue 04-Feb-14 23:19:13

Have I missed something? OP told him. He Left. Right?

Goldmandra Tue 04-Feb-14 23:21:36

He didn't need to be told to know he was behaving inappropriately. If he hadn't realised that he wouldn't have justified his actions as tantrum avoidance.

Pimpf Tue 04-Feb-14 23:22:15

He left because his daughter was changed, not because he was asked to, unless I've missed something

Misspixietrix Tue 04-Feb-14 23:22:38

Primf nobody in their right mind would think it's acceptable. Which is what made me suggest maybe he didn't think it through. He is a man after all smile

Personally, I wouldn't give a flying fuck. I don't give a monkeys who see's me naked. DD2 wouldn't be impressed.

Mind you she'd probably charm
The little girl into going into the family area.

Misspixietrix Tue 04-Feb-14 23:23:42

He then made a swift exit I took that to mean he went into another changing room. I'm sure OP will be back to clarify.

Pimpf Tue 04-Feb-14 23:23:48

Haha pixie, still don't buy it though

Pimpf Tue 04-Feb-14 23:24:33

Star, that's great for you, but not everyone feels that way

poopadoop Tue 04-Feb-14 23:26:56

maybe just be charitable, and think he was completely flustered, didn't think through what he was doing and leave it at that. And don't make such an almighty fuss, at worst giggle at his embarrassment. Honestly do you not have more to worry about?! MN is so full of these petty gripes and moans these days, it is sometimes like one big collective whinge

Goldmandra Tue 04-Feb-14 23:33:30

Honestly do you not have more to worry about?! MN is so full of these petty gripes and moans these days, it is sometimes like one big collective whinge

That's us told then!

Should we work out how to broker peace in the Middle East instead?

AroundTheGlobe Tue 04-Feb-14 23:35:34

I agree with poopadoop.

Yeah it was shit decision and he probably didn't actually think about the possible consequences or how others might feel.

He was told and then he left. I'd just build a bridge and get over it.

Only if he did it again or refused to leave would it become an issue imo.

snowybun Tue 04-Feb-14 23:44:09

I think my local pool has the right idea unisex changing area with cubicles big family ones as well as smaller cubicles no problems then.

Grennie Tue 04-Feb-14 23:44:26

If I had to use a changing room with men in, I would never go swimming again.

Daykin Tue 04-Feb-14 23:51:01

It doesn't matter if individual women don't mind being seen naked by a random man, the changing room is for all women. Elderly women and teens, women who've recently had mastectomies, women who've been raped and sexually assaulted, women who don't want random blokes looking at them. Swimming is not just for the 'right on'.

Jinsei Wed 05-Feb-14 00:16:02

I'm amazed that anyone thinks that it was ok for a grown man to go in the women's changing room when there were family rooms available. Just to avoid a tantrum? shock

Unbelievable.

Misspixietrix Wed 05-Feb-14 00:21:50

Only no one thinks that.

poopadoop Wed 05-Feb-14 00:35:43

fgs, mass hysteria! ONE man made a faux-pas in a foolish panic, that was then corrected and suddenly it might never be safe to go back in the changing room again!!

And does having a bit of common sense not apply to 'Elderly women and teens, women who've recently had mastectomies, women who've been raped and sexually assaulted.' That's so patronising

LittleBearPad Wed 05-Feb-14 00:35:53

What a wimp and very inconsiderate.

Pitmountainpony Wed 05-Feb-14 05:37:55

Another pervert with a good back story.

Chottie Wed 05-Feb-14 05:49:25

I would have felt uncomfortable about this too.

when my gym has changing room swops because of maintenance, it is amazing the number of middle aged men who 'accidentally' go into the wrong changing room despite huge notices on the doors and in reception

procrastinatingagain Wed 05-Feb-14 06:06:43

I'm trying to imagine walking into the male changing room, and I just can't. I wouldn't be able to bring myself to do it. Thankfully my local pools have unisex changing areas which are all cubicles. Much better. Going into the wrong changing rooms is just not right imo, whatever his excuse was.

2cats2many Wed 05-Feb-14 06:37:25

Just to clarify, he left because his dd had her coat on and was ready to leave. Not because I told him to leave.

I'll be telling him to leave if I see him in there next Tuesday.

For the record, I don't think he was a perv and he did genuinely look uncomfortable. I think he was a bit spineless, stupid and, yes, entitled.

However, it doesn't really matter what his intentions were. He made lots of women feel uncomfortable for no reason and he shouldnt have been there.

Greenkit Wed 05-Feb-14 07:14:22

We just have changing rooms, no just male or just female

Tailtwister Wed 05-Feb-14 07:14:30

YANBU. There were family changing rooms available and he should have been using them, whether or not his daughter objected.

Personally his presence wouldn't have bothered me, but I understand that a lot of women would feel extremely uncomfortable. There are separate changing rooms for a reason.

DinahSoar Wed 05-Feb-14 07:27:10

YABU. But mainly because you have been conditioned to be.

It might be worth thinking about why you are so opposed to men seeing you naked/half dressed? Is it because they might be 'perving' at you? So is it just straight men you're concerned with? What about gay men? And what about lesbian women, might they not be eyeing you up too? Perhaps we should have 4 sets of changing rooms - but then what would we do with bisexual people?

Or is it because 'our bodies are different' - in which case, as individual women's bodies aren't the same, should we have sections for tall women, short women, fat women, slim women, women who've had children, women who haven't? And what about people with deformities?

Bodies are just bodes, and this 'ooh don't let anyone see mine' attitude really should be left in the last century. Our children are subjected to airbrushed and pornographic images everywhere nowadays and, if they never get to see true nakedness so do not have any reality other than their own bodies to compare these with, this could contribute to them having a warped sense of what bodies are 'supposed' to look like as well as 'issues' about their own appearance.

I think the man involved was very brave and was just trying to placate his daughter (haven't we all occasionally done the 'wrong' thing in order to achieve this?) - if he was my husband/partner and came home and told me what he'd done, I'd have just giggled and said 'I bet that freaked out some of the fuddy-duddies'. And didn't it just!

LittleBearPad Wed 05-Feb-14 07:50:07

There are times to placate children and there are times to be a grown up and explain they can't have what they want.

Glad you think it would funny to upset lots of women.

TamerB Wed 05-Feb-14 07:57:14

Good grief- what an odd post Dinah. hmm I really don't care if I am 'conditioned' or not- I expect the ladies to be just that, apart from boys under 6 yrs old.
I would just have told him that he had no choice, the big screaming fight was his problem to sort out in the family room.

TamerB Wed 05-Feb-14 07:58:12

The child is really onto a winner if she throws a tantrum and gets her own way!

Mordirig Wed 05-Feb-14 07:58:43

You know what it is ok for me to not want a man looking at my naked body.
I don't understand why my feelings do not count to some people confused

There could be a multitude of reasons why I and other women feel uncomfortable with this scenario and we shouldn't have to bloody list them out for all the 'I'm cool with nudity' people.

If I use the ladies changing room I should be able to use them without having to worry about a grown man walking in even if it is with his young daughter.

catsmother Wed 05-Feb-14 08:10:16

It's very unkind to ridicule women (or men, or children for that matter) who object to being naked in front of others as "fuddy duddies". You may well have a point about teaching children to be accepting of their own and others' bodies - no matter what shape or form they take - but you can't expect very many people to lose all their inhibitions just like that when they've been subjected to years of social conditioning and/or have religious reasons why public nudity is unacceptable and/or were brought up (rightly or wrongly) to be "discreet" and/or have one or more of the 1001 different personal and individual reasons why they have body issues.

Being "freaked out" - ha di bloody ha how hilarious - may seem ridiculous to you but unintended exposure to other people can actually cause genuine distress for many people. Some posters have already mentioned their children with special needs for whom such exposure would lead to a stressful and upsetting meltdown. Others would feel mortified (again, it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks) and embarrassed and the incident would cause them hours of anxiety and discomfort.

However "right on" you want to be - or think everyone should be - about nudity, the fact is that attitudes won't change overnight. And "fuddy duddies" should be allowed to choose if and when they alter their opinion ..... if they can. It's not as simple as flicking a switch over something like this when feeling happy about your body and feeling happy to expose it in all its nakedness can be down to complex emotions and experiences.

Personally, I'm reasonably happy with my clothed body but feel very anxious about being naked in front of others - women or men. There are some situations when it can't be avoided, e.g. medical stuff, but I hate it regardless of the "they've seen it all before" thing and similarly, hate getting dressed in a communal changing room, even if it's just women .... if a man came in I'd feel far far more uncomfortable no matter how innocent he intended to be. I have noticeable scars on my back which contribute to this and other people may think I'm being "silly" but there you go. No-one has the right to make me or anyone else feel bad because we choose to be discreet and prefer to change in private.

So .... OP, YANBU !!!

Goldmandra Wed 05-Feb-14 08:16:07

I think the man involved was very brave and was just trying to placate his daughter (haven't we all occasionally done the 'wrong' thing in order to achieve this?)

Err...no hmm

There's a difference between picking your battles and jumping through ridiculous hoops in order to avoid tantrums. Fortunately, the majority of parents are able to use better judgement.

bigTillyMint Wed 05-Feb-14 08:20:30

Surely he should have taken her into the men's change room? Even if he is the nicest least leery man in the world, grown men do not go into women's changing rooms under any circumstances.

If this was to happen again, I think you should alert the staff to come and deal with him and the toddler.

Goldmandra Wed 05-Feb-14 08:21:49

Surely he should have taken her into the men's change room?

No. He should have taken her into the family changing rooms which are provided for exactly this purpose.

cjel Wed 05-Feb-14 08:28:39

I think its very rude and disrespectful to decide that I have serious 'issues' that I should get over because I have been 'conditioned'.

Every person has been conditioned in some way even if its only to know that rape murder violence etc isn't right. Should I have help to overcome these 'issues' as well?

This place is for women and children only and this man was wrong in going there. As a society thats what we do - we consider what we want, rules are made and we live by them. It shouldn't matter whether we have 'issues' or not. We should live by the rules that are set for the places we go.
I have friends who are nudists but just because thats what they like they wouldn't do it in an inappropriate place.

Daykin Wed 05-Feb-14 08:30:15

And does having a bit of common sense not apply to 'Elderly women and teens, women who've recently had mastectomies, women who've been raped and sexually assaulted.' That's so patronising

It's not patronising at all. It's fucking rude to say to people "It's just bodies, I don't mind being seen naked by strange men in a woman only space so neither should you." You can't just deny the lived experience of millions of other women because it's not your experience. It's not common sense to think it's perfectly normal to have men in female only spaces when you are naked. I was sexually assaulted in a female only space. It has changed the way I react to men in closed environments and being suddenly confronted by an adult man when I am in a vulnerable state (and I feel vulnerable when I am naked no matter how much some patronising arsehole tells me 'it's just naked bodies') would seriously freak me out. I am not the only victim of sexual assault to feel like this so don't patronise me by saying that I should have more 'common sense'.

Misspixietrix Wed 05-Feb-14 08:35:30

Since when has being a bit thick come across as 'entitled' confused.

cjel Wed 05-Feb-14 08:37:30

DAYKIN, I am sorry for what happened to you, I haven't been assaulted in such an awful way as you but still find it very patronising to be told that I should'get over' my not wanting a man in a womans only changing room.

Goldmandra Wed 05-Feb-14 08:37:56

Well said Daykin thanks

Pagwatch Wed 05-Feb-14 08:41:25

Walking into a women's changing room to avoid a tantrum - even if the child has SN - is thick and self defeating.
The man is an arse.

But the assumption upthread that a man out with his DD must be a single dad is even more fucking stupid.
Dh has been taking DD to her swimming twice a week since she was about 6.

Jeez.

SlightlyTerrified Wed 05-Feb-14 08:44:40

I thought the rules were up until 8 years old you have to take the child into the changing room for the gender of the adult with them so he should have gone into the mens (or indeed the family changing room). After 8 children are supposed to go in on their own on again in the family room.

This has nothing to do with men seeing women naked. Some people are very self conscious but that is no one else's business to comment on IMO. When i was younger and had an eating disorder i would have been mortified for men to have seen me undressed.

DrankSangriaInThePark Wed 05-Feb-14 08:50:01

We haven't had a "my 11 yr old great galumphing lad with no SN isn't going into those nasty male changing rooms on his own to be molested by all those pervy male swimmers I'm taking him with me into the mammy's bit until he's 25" for aaaaages have we?

Shall I start one? I luffs a good changing room thread.

Goldmandra Wed 05-Feb-14 08:56:31

After 8 children are supposed to go in on their own on again in the family room.

Why are they supposed to go into family changing areas alone?

Misspixietrix Wed 05-Feb-14 09:00:14

Most posters on here "I don't want a man looking at me" (Rightly so). "surely he should have taken her into the mens changing room"...because obviously the girl wouldn't mind a group of men looking at her. I'm sure the Dad wouldn't neither!! hmm Yes he should have took her into the Family Room. OP told him this. He didn't hang around. He quickly left and I'm pretty sure if he does she will let the Pool Staff know.

Goldmandra Wed 05-Feb-14 09:03:24

because obviously the girl wouldn't mind a group of men looking at her.

Don't male changing rooms have cubicles that small children can be changed in?

poopadoop Wed 05-Feb-14 09:15:53

It's fucking rude to say to people "It's just bodies, I don't mind being seen naked by strange men in a woman only space so neither should you." You can't just deny the lived experience of millions of other women because it's not your experience. It's not common sense to think it's perfectly normal to have men in female only spaces when you are naked.

I'm sorry for what happened to you, and I'm not keen to walk around naked in front of strange men either, but as someone with experience of this also, I feel it is better to put this sort of situation down to a foolish mistake, and while momentarily uncomfortable it is better MH-wise to try not to be overly freaked out and develop some resilience, as accidents like this may happen. I don't think anyone said this was normal but it does sound as if the man was a bit unthinking rather than intent on harming anyone

Misspixietrix Wed 05-Feb-14 09:18:34

Can you not see the inconsistencies in those statements Gold. You can't have it both ways. Oh and no there aren't any Family / small cubicles in the male Changing rooms in my Pool.

3bunnies Wed 05-Feb-14 09:44:16

By the sounds of it he was BU. One pool we swim at has open plan changing rooms with a few cubicles with flimsy curtains - when I swim with ds (4) I take him in there. Lots of women of various ages are naked. I would feel it inappropriate for a male to be there unless he was working and it was absolutely necessary - e.g. to give first aid. The other pool has all cubicles - two rows of family ones and a row each of male and female ones. While I would think him a little eccentric for using the bright pink obviously designed for female ones I personally think that assigning gender specific cubicles when anyone can see down the length of any row and you have your own lockable cubicle is slightly excessive.

From your posts it sounds as if maybe it was just the dd getting changed, maybe after a swimming lesson? If so I would mention it to the swimming co-ordinator so that they can remind parents by email, highlight the family changing rooms and maybe keep an eye out next week themselves.

My dd1 is 8 and although she dresses herself etc I know that my 'encouragement' speeds her up a bit so we can all get home to eat. I am there anyway for my 6yr old, so I can see other advantages to using family changing rooms for older dc.

Gold I think that "on" should say "or".

Do people really think a men's changing room is inappropriate for a girl under 8? My dad used to take me and DSis into the men's every time. It's no big deal. But if children are upset or parents are concerned there is a family room. It's really a no brainer?

When DS was little instead of calling them "ladies" and "men's" toilets/changing rooms we called them "mummies" and "daddies" toilets. That way he didn't get upset about going into the wrong one and always expected to go into the correct gender for the adult who was accompanying him.

We used to use the men's shower and toilet blocks when camping too! I can assure you I'm not scarred in any way, can't even remember it TBH.

missinglalaland Wed 05-Feb-14 09:53:08

YANBU

Men are not allowed in women's changing rooms. Women have a right to expect this rule to be followed.

JoinYourPlayfellows Wed 05-Feb-14 09:53:18

"surely he should have taken her into the mens changing room"...because obviously the girl wouldn't mind a group of men looking at her. I'm sure the Dad wouldn't neither!!

hmm

So if you take a small child into a men's changing room, they will all perv on the child, is that right?

Rather than, um, not giving a fucking shite about the fact that a child is there.

When a woman brings a little boy into the women's dressing room, is that a "group of women looking at him"?

If not, why not?

Men's changing rooms are where men go to get changed. They are no more full of "hairy men waving their willies about" (like some idiot Dad said earlier) than women's dressing rooms are full of women showing off their boobs and hairy fanjos.

Adult bodies (of either gender) are not disgusting and there is no more reason to protect a small girl from seeing a man get changed there there is to protect a small boy from a naked woman.

Single-gender changing rooms exist for many reasons, some good and some bad.

But where they exist they should be observed by ALL adults and older children (depending on the rules of the place) and any younger dependants being brought along need to go with the gender of the adult.

I can't believe people think that little boys should be in the women's dressing rooms but that it's unacceptable for little girls to go into the men's.

What are the fathers of daughters supposed to do?

Can girls only be brought swimming by women? confused

If men's dressing rooms are so dangerous that children can't be brought into them supervised by their own father, then we maybe need to start locking all men up as soon as they grow pubes.

Misspixietrix Wed 05-Feb-14 09:58:41

<sighs> not what I am saying. Pointing out that you can't have it both ways. As you are all demonstrating. "I don't want a man perving at me" one minute. Then saying not all men are pervs when someone suggests he takes his young daughter into a men's changing room which by the way I'm not the only one to disagree with. Also for the last bloody time. No one on this thread thinks the Man was NBU. Some just simply stated he might have just might have made a mistake. OP told him. He swiftly left were her words in the original OP. I'm also pretty sure it won't be a regular occurence as I'm pretty sure in the throws of parenthood where we are all still learning. He simply made a mistake. Which he won't be doing again.

RainYourRottingMyDhaliaBulbs Wed 05-Feb-14 10:03:00

I am not sure what people are being exposed to here, that you dont see in the pool...

I mean to actually change clothes you go into a cubicle dont you?

What exactly would the man be gaining if say he was a peeping tom, from using female changing>

Same with men taking litle girls into womens loo's, if they use mens loo they are going to literally be exposed to men urinating and see them...however, in womens loos behind a cubile door....what is there exaclty to see expect women washing their hands? confused

JoinYourPlayfellows Wed 05-Feb-14 10:17:03

"I don't want a man perving at me" one minute. Then saying not all men are pervs when someone suggests he takes his young daughter into a men's changing room

That's not having it both ways.

That's recognising that adolescent and adult women like to be able to get dressed away from the male gaze that dominates our society.

Saying that men in a changing room will all be perving on little girls' bodies is saying something entirely different.

JoinYourPlayfellows Wed 05-Feb-14 10:20:40

What exactly would the man be gaining if say he was a peeping tom, from using female changing

Peeping Toms do try to look into female changing rooms.

Because they see female bodies uncovered and they don't have consent to do it.

Same with men taking litle girls into womens loo's, if they use mens loo they are going to literally be exposed to men urinating and see them

So?

What's wrong with seeing men urinate?

Men can't invade female-only spaces just so their daughters can be spared seeing men doing perfectly normal things.

This whole argument seems to have some very twisted undertones of little girls needing protection that little boys don't need and all men being monstrous paedos and that if a girl sees a penis she will be dirtied by the experience.

It's fucking weird.

poopadoop Wed 05-Feb-14 10:24:09

Misspixietrix - exactly, and precisely. The reactions on her are completely over the top and hysterical and actually unhelpful to anyone that does have an issue around men and nudity. He made a mistake, he left. End of.

JoinYourPlayfellows Wed 05-Feb-14 10:25:49

He was leaving anyway.

And he didn't "make a mistake".

He thought that he had a right to enter a space specifically reserved for women on a completely flimsy pretext.

poopadoop Wed 05-Feb-14 10:27:42

>He thought that he had a right to enter a space specifically reserved for >women on a completely flimsy pretext

'flimsy pretext' implies he was there for nefarious reasons.

Misspixietrix Wed 05-Feb-14 10:27:46

Yes it is having it both ways. For reasons I'm not prepared to go into on here as its a public forum and anyone can read it. All I will say is you wouldn't have got my 8yr old sister in a men's changing room wihout her having a nervous breakdown. Regardless of whether they were cubicles available in there for her to change in. I was simply responding to anothers posters comment and I fear I'm derailing the thread a little on here. So for the last time. Yes Man was BU. OP wasn't BU to tell him so. I'm pretty sure the man made a vert stupid mistake and I'm pretty sure he won't be doing it again. What with it being a mistake and all...

JoinYourPlayfellows Wed 05-Feb-14 10:32:11

No, "flimsy pretext" implies that he did what he wanted and made up a crap excuse when challenged.

It says nothing at all about WHY he wanted to be in the women's changing room.

All I will say is you wouldn't have got my 8yr old sister in a men's changing room without her having a nervous breakdown.

Your 8 year old sister would be plenty old enough to go into the women's changing room on her own, presumably.

MinesAPintOfTea Wed 05-Feb-14 10:44:55

Rain it would appear that these changing rooms were mostly communal, so yes women are fully undressed in the open areas.

OP yanbu

GhoulWithADragonTattoo Wed 05-Feb-14 10:45:47

Women's changing rooms are for:
Women
Girls
Boys under 8

Men's changing room are for:
Men
Boys
Girls under 8

If you have an opposite sex child over 8 who needs help changing due to SN then they should use the family or disabled changing area

So the man in the OP should have used family change or the men's.

"I am not sure what people are being exposed to here, that you dont see in the pool...

I mean to actually change clothes you go into a cubicle dont you?"

In one of our pools there is a large communal female changing area, with two cubicles for women who want to change in private, so it is very much a case of everything on show unless you wish to wait 20 mins for one of the cubicles.

GhoulWithADragonTattoo Wed 05-Feb-14 10:48:31

All this goes to show that the best changing rooms are communal with lots of different sizes of cubicles to accommodate different situations. Most new pools I've seen tend to follow this idea.

JoinYourPlayfellows Wed 05-Feb-14 10:51:31

the best changing rooms are communal with lots of different sizes of cubicles to accommodate different situations.

Agree

ChippingInWadesIn Wed 05-Feb-14 10:54:34

The only mistake he made was pandering to a 4 year old.

He deliberately went against the rules to make his life easier with a 'fuck you' attitude to all of the women, teens & girls... no one in their right mind thinks that's acceptable.

Apple confuses me more though, she refuses to let her 8 year old son go in the womens because he's 8 and she is following the rules <great so far> but she goes into the mens - does she think it's 'no between 8 & 10 year olds' fine for everyone else?? Boggling.

ChippingInWadesIn Wed 05-Feb-14 10:57:17

Essentially his wishes (for an easy life) trumped everyone else's - wonder why he thought that was acceptable hmm

poopadoop Wed 05-Feb-14 10:57:58

> made up a crap excuse

Well if it was an excuse, that implies it wasn't the 'true' reason

JoinYourPlayfellows Wed 05-Feb-14 11:03:27

Well if it was an excuse, that implies it wasn't the 'true' reason

Nope, it implies that it wasn't a sufficient explanation.

He had no good reason to be there, just a flimsy excuse and his belief that he could do whatever the fuck he pleased.

Goldmandra Wed 05-Feb-14 11:05:06

Can you not see the inconsistencies in those statements Gold. You can't have it both ways.

No. Not at all.

A small child being changed in a cubicle is out of sight of any male changers who may make her feel uncomfortable by looking at her if she is even aware enough to feel that.

A man walking around in a female changing room makes all the women changing in the communal area feel uncomfortable.

The two situations don't compare.

Clearly it would be better for everyone to be able to change where they feel comfortable which is why family changing rooms exist.

SlightlyTerrified Wed 05-Feb-14 11:07:59

Goldmandra that was a typo - was supposed to day over 8s go in on their own or again in the family changing room ( with parents! )

poopadoop Wed 05-Feb-14 11:10:49

For the last time, nobody said it was acceptable, but using terms like 'pretext' and 'flimsy excuse' are over the top, as it sounds like he knew he was wrong but was there for some perverse reason

JoinYourPlayfellows Wed 05-Feb-14 11:12:37

If he knew he was doing wrong and did it anyway, then terms like "flimsy excuse" and "pretext" are entirely appropriate.

Goldmandra Wed 05-Feb-14 11:25:09

Goldmandra that was a typo

OK. I thought it was odd.

limitedperiodonly Wed 05-Feb-14 11:45:35

For the record, I don't think he was a perv and he did genuinely look uncomfortable. I think he was a bit spineless, stupid and, yes, entitled.

That is very charitable of you OP. I don't believe his excuse for a minute and if I saw him again I'd be straight on to the staff.

limitedperiodonly Wed 05-Feb-14 12:01:03

In fact, I’m imagining a post in 20 years' time from someone saying: ‘My dad used to use me as an excuse to perve over women in the swimming pool changing rooms.’

VegetariansTasteLikeChicken Wed 05-Feb-14 12:22:39

I think the man involved was very brave and was just trying to placate his daughter (haven't we all occasionally done the 'wrong' thing in order to achieve this?) - if he was my husband/partner and came home and told me what he'd done, I'd have just giggled and said 'I bet that freaked out some of the fuddy-duddies'. And didn't it just!

Oh DinahSoar aren't you cool hmm those fuddie duddies, like the 1/5th of women who have been sexually assaulted.. or the young teenage girls who should be like totes comfortable with a fucking growin man in their changing room. And to the poster who thinks he "got a parental decision wrong and didn't understand the consequences" I am pretty sure.. that before he ever had a child.. he knew that changing rooms that say "women only" were for women only because there would be naked women in them.

Otherwise they would be full of teenage boys and men in their 20s. Do you see many young childless men wandering throuhg the women's changin rooms? No? no you don't.

It was wrong for him to assert his right to do whatever he wanted at the risk of upsetting those around him. I doubt he was just stupid, I'd say super entitled at best and yes, a bit of a perv at worst.

I wouldn't have been happy to find a bloke getting changed in the ladies changing room.

Only now, we have a changing village where there are only individual cubicles, for both genders, so you do see some stuff now.

Some showers poolside open to view, plus some individual showers where you can strip off the costume and have a proper shower.

Misspixietrix Wed 05-Feb-14 13:11:19

Chopping the OP doesnt mention the DCs age.

Misspixietrix Wed 05-Feb-14 13:16:22

Yes she would Join but again your picking over arguments that aren't there. I said 8 because that's th e age everyone else was mentioning as I explained clearly so I thought. She was 4 when something happened to her. So the point still stands however people want to misconstrue my posts.

poopadoop Wed 05-Feb-14 13:23:24

I think ramping this up to a paranoid fantasy where the guy was there to perve is deeply alarmist and no help to those who have experienced sexual assault.

HelloBoys Wed 05-Feb-14 13:31:56

Rules are rules, he broke them. Is he about to be prancing about in the nude in female changing room?!

If there was NO family changing room I'd say he could use females.

Our local swimming pool has unisex but cubicles too. which generally works. I'm sure the occasional person doesn't realise though and FWIW a female friend of mine is ok but not best pleased about the unisex bit!

HelloBoys Wed 05-Feb-14 13:36:14

oh in one of our local pools (guess which one?!) they have Muslim swimming days - presumably women in Burkas, etc - now suppose this man was in one of those pools on one of those days?!

Now the above WOULD have been an outcry!

ChippingInWadesIn Wed 05-Feb-14 13:38:02

misspixietrix

Does everyone else in the leisure centre have to bend to the whim of a 4 year old as well as her dad?

hmm

ifyourehoppyandyouknowit Wed 05-Feb-14 13:38:37

Do you think the dad would have been happy if a grown man was changing next to his daughter she she was 15/16/20 etc? I think he's just not seen beyond his own bubble.

ChippingInWadesIn Wed 05-Feb-14 13:41:40

If there was NO family changing room I'd say he could use females

No, really, he couldn't - not being female and all. FFS.

A 4 year old gets changed where they are told - they do not dictate that the rules of the leisure centre are ignored because they want to do something nor because he's such a self centred git he'd rather offend/inconvenience/upset and entire changing room of females than deal with his daughter - for crying out loud.

HelloBoys Wed 05-Feb-14 13:42:07

HopALong - I think from what OP has said is his DD would make a scene if not in female changing room, he didn't want said scene so he decided to over-ride the rules of the swimming pool (not his rules their rules) and take DD in female CR regardless of the feelings of the other females there.

Me personally I may have been a bit shock depending on whether it was an open changing room (and he COULD see all females in various states of undress) but it wouldn't have killed me.

what beggars belief here is that he just over-rode the rules. for his own benefit.

HelloBoys Wed 05-Feb-14 13:42:59

Chipping but do you REALLY think it is appropriate for a 4 year old to then use the males changing rooms?

I don't. call me naive but I really don't think that's on.

HelloBoys Wed 05-Feb-14 13:43:50

and Chipping I agree with you a 4 year old shouldn't dictate where they should get changed.

Yes of course it is!

This is totally ridiculous. CHILDREN are not harmed by seeing bodies. ADULTS have a right to change in single gender changing rooms.

4 year old boys use the male changing rooms right? They wouldn't go into the women's (unless of course they are with their mum rather than their dad).

lainiekazan Wed 05-Feb-14 13:47:05

This happened when I took dd swimmiing a while ago. It was a school swimming pool which hosted club swimming lessons.

There were older teenage girls getting changed as well as children with mums. This man was with his children and, I think, oblivious, and some of the mums were giggling at the situation. But one of the staff marched up and ordered him out. Like the man in the OP, he stood his ground and argued about it, instead of creeping off with a red face to the family changing room.

I'm sure such men aren't pervs, but the sort who probably wear slings and say, "We're pregnant" and are generally wallyish.

JoinYourPlayfellows Wed 05-Feb-14 13:48:29

If there was NO family changing room I'd say he could use females.

confused

Even if there was no family changing room, HE'D STILL BE A MAN.

And so, NO, he couldn't use the women's changing room.

He could use the men's changing room like all Dad's of little girls do when they take them swimming.

HelloBoys Wed 05-Feb-14 13:48:40

Bertie - I recall when younger 4 year old boys being allowed in female changing rooms whether with mum or dad if they weren't comfortable being in the male changing room and especially if they were with just say mum.

Misspixietrix Wed 05-Feb-14 13:49:15

Right missed that one chipping sorry.

HelloBoys Wed 05-Feb-14 13:50:03

Join - like I said before you'd be happy for a young girl to be in MALE changing room with her dad?

You have NO IDEA the kinds of people who are there. You could get lucky and everyone's normal but there could be the perv/paedo in there eyeing up a 4 year old. maybe I'm overreacting but I would NOT be happy with a young DD of mine going in male changing room with her dad!

ifyourehoppyandyouknowit Wed 05-Feb-14 13:50:58

Um, that's a bit rude to dad who wear slings. My husband uses a sling but is quite capable of using the appropriate changing room.

I don't hold much stock with 'the four year old wanted to get changed in there'. There are lots of things my two year wants to do his way, we don't do them all.

limitedperiodonly Wed 05-Feb-14 13:51:08

I think ramping this up to a paranoid fantasy where the guy was there to perve is deeply alarmist and no help to those who have experienced sexual assault.

Are you saying that voyeurs do not exist and that their targets have not experienced sexual assault?

4PlusMum Wed 05-Feb-14 13:52:25

That would have pissed me right off and I would have made a scene.

At the pool where DD has her swimming lessons, there is just one big unisex changing changing room and everyone goes into individual cubicles if they want to. Plus there are one or two bigger rooms which parents use to help kids change. The pool is attached to a rehabilitation centre (lovely warm water for DD) and it is arranged that way so that carers can assist those with disabilities. I was a bit hmm when I first went but it actually works surprisingly well. There are always loads of staff around and I get no sense of anyone perving.

JoinYourPlayfellows Wed 05-Feb-14 13:52:51

like I said before you'd be happy for a young girl to be in MALE changing room with her dad?

Um... yeah.

I have three daughters.

Are you telling me that their father isn't allowed to take them swimming because men are such disgusting paedo pervs that it's not safe for them to be in a men's changing room even if the is with them??

Fucking seriously?

You have NO IDEA the kinds of people who are there.

That's true of all public places everywhere.

But most men are decent and good and not pervs (just like their Dad) and getting changed around them when he is there to supervise doesn't put them at any danger at all.

LittleBearPad Wed 05-Feb-14 13:53:25

Yes Hello. If the four year old boy is with his mum he goes to the womens changing rooms

If he's with his dad he goes to the men's changing rooms

Swap four year old boy for four year old girl and the location they change in remains the same. Parents gender dictates changing room.

It isn't difficult.

And why wouldn't a four year old of either gender be ok in a men's changing room with their parent. What do you think will happen?

VegetariansTasteLikeChicken Wed 05-Feb-14 13:54:15

Why woudl a 4 year old boy and his dad feel uncomfortable using a man's changing room? But not a womans? confused?

Daykin Wed 05-Feb-14 13:55:36

A mistake would be to walk into the womens thinking it was the mens or family. What this man did was prioritise himself and his dd over everyone else. It was a choice, and a choice that could only be made by someone with a massive sense of entitlement and privilege. It's like those wanky 'life hack' things that pop on FB where middle class, straight, white men show off about how they get people to bend the rules for them.

I think that there is a really strong chance that he is not a perv, but I don't feel inclined to say it's fine for people to break the rules because they want to and everyone else should put up with it.

misspixietrix sorry for being thick, but are you saying that your sister should be accompanied by your dad into the womens changing room, so she doesn't have to change in front of men, or are you saying that men shouldn't be in the womens because your sister, and others don't want to change in front of men. I don't understand how it's OK for men to take their dds into the female change, to eliminate the need for them changing in front of men, when by this very action it means that those girls are now changing in front of men. confused

To whoever it was who said I should get over my sexual assault for my MH, thanks but I am as over it as I am going to be. My MH is fine but I still am not at the point where I can stand cunt naked in a room and have a fully grown adult man walk in, unexpectedly, without it bringing up a whole heap of emotions. This quirk doesn't actually impact on anyone if they follow a few basic rules - such as stay the fuck out of the womens changing room.

You do know women can be paedophiles too? What on earth is a paedophile going to do in a changing room that they couldn't do in the pool itself. (ie, look at children). Better not ever take your child out in public, then.

Far more likely they'll be at home downloading something nasty off the internet, sorry to say.

Different gendered changing rooms are nothing to do with preventing sexual assault and everything to do with privacy for adults who have reached puberty. Children under 8 haven't done so, so they are irrelevant to the discussion. They also tend to need help getting changed, which is why they are allowed into the opposite sex's changing room if required, in order to accompany their opposite-sex parent.

2rebecca Wed 05-Feb-14 13:59:20

My local pool is now unisex as well with a few larger rooms some with changing tables for family groups and disabled changing. Everyone has their own cubicles and no embarrassment for mixed sex adult child combos. Their are a few shower cubicles in the male and female toilets if people want to strip off and shower properly rather than use the unisex shower heads in a row, keep your cozzie on, type showers.
Seems to please everyone. This bloke was out of order. When I used to take my son swimming at the pool we lived near then which had single sex changing rooms and no family areas (small town) I wouldn't have gone in the gents just because he had a hissy fit. When he was 8 he went in the gents unaccompanied.

Daykin Wed 05-Feb-14 14:00:47

Join - like I said before you'd be happy for a young girl to be in MALE changing room with her dad?

You have NO IDEA the kinds of people who are there. You could get lucky and everyone's normal but there could be the perv/paedo in there eyeing up a 4 year old. maybe I'm overreacting but I would NOT be happy with a young DD of mine going in male changing room with her dad!

But you'd be happy for her being in a female changing room that has men in it confused

starlight1234 Wed 05-Feb-14 14:04:47

It is about supervising a child...

My Ds goes in female..If he was been supervised by a male he would go in male..

I would expect the same if I had a DD...

Misspixietrix Wed 05-Feb-14 14:07:09

No Daykin. Someone on here said the Dads DC SHOULD have took her in the changing rooms. I simply responded (in fact so did somebody else saying no he should use the family one) that had that been my Sister. She's in her 30s now by the way but what happened to her happened when she was four. I'm not going to go into any more detail. I was just trying to point out had that have been my then Sister at OPs DCs age you wouldn't have stood a chance of getting her in a MCR. Regardless of whether it had small cubicles in and if it was our Dad taking her in. HTH. I didn't actually say either was okay I was just responding to another Posters comment. He was BU to 'swan in'. OP isn't BU to expect him to use the Family Changing Rooms. However. Because it sounds like a one off to me I'm giving him the Benefit of the doubt as it were and I'm sure he's learned his lesson.

K8Middleton Wed 05-Feb-14 14:08:03

Good grief only on Mumsnet...

Applecrumples YOU are over 8 years old too so get out of the men's changing room!

OP you are so obviously not unreasonable, the man was a total idiot. Or a perv.

All those happy to get your bits out for random men - have a word with yourselves and stop imposing your weirdness on others by saying it is fine. It is not bloody fine.

All those who feel sympathy for this man, who have made excuses for him and have suggested that maybe because he's a dad not a mum he might be clueless - please note this is 2014 and we don't have to make excuses or concessions to someone because they are a man. It is deeply sexist but mainly, total bollocks.

Misspixietrix Wed 05-Feb-14 14:08:59

Sorry Daykin that first sentence is meant to say someone said he should have took her into the Male Changing rooms.

Viviennemary Wed 05-Feb-14 14:13:58

He had absolutely no business to be in the ladies changing room. I think a word with the staff on duty would have been in order here. I've never heard of such a thing!!

minionmadness Wed 05-Feb-14 14:24:18

It's simple really. I wouldn't expect to see an adult male in the female changing rooms.

When I take dts's (nearly 6) swimming we go into the female changing room.

When DH take them swimming he goes into the male changing room. Although DH doesn't go very often due to work.

The adult uses the appropriate changing room for their gender irrespective of the child's gender until said child is 8.

Things will become muddier for us when dts1 (ASD) is 8 and he will be expected to use the male ones by himself which he will not be capable of doing. I had thought I would still take him in the female changing where we also have family cubicles which we use for his sensory issues, but on reading some comments it would seem some think this is wrong.

Incidentally dts1 goes to a disability group swim and on that particular evening there are boys up to the age of say 11 who still get changed in the female changing rooms albeit in a cubicle. As far as I'm aware this is not an issue for anyone there.

I can't see any issue with this.

GhoulWithADragonTattoo Wed 05-Feb-14 14:34:57

Minion - I think you have it just right. In your case it sounds like for the disabled group swim the rules are relaxed so boys up to 11 can still go into the female changing room so their mums can assist them and that's fine as it suits the group using it. If you go swimming to a public session I would say you should take DTS1 into the family or disabled changing room once he's over 8 to ensure the privacy of women and girls using the female changing room.

Orlea Wed 05-Feb-14 14:35:49

My dad always took me to the men's changing rooms with him when I was little. He put me in a cubicle if there was one, if not he held a towel round me whilst I changed. As soon as I got old enough to care (when we started swimming lessons at school) I went to the ladies changing rooms on my own, all proud of myself for being a proper grown up smile He would never set foot in the ladies though, maybe definitely he's old-fashioned, but he'd never do that even if the male changing rooms had been reduced to rubble.

That said, I hated having to change under a towel when there wasn't a free cubicle in the ladies...

Most pools in my area are now just mixed cubicles, some are larger than others, but no gender divide except in the toilets. So it's an unusual situation for OP to have found herself in IME, but I think the man really shouldn't have been there... It's maybe a bit harsh to report him though if he was just unaware of the family changing rooms.

sunshine401 Wed 05-Feb-14 14:43:25

There was a family room to be used yanbu at all.

HelloBoys Wed 05-Feb-14 15:23:29

Little you have made it clearer.

Yes I realise women can also be paedos but I don't have the time or inclination to find the stats.

Of course the vast majority of men in the male changing room would be fine but I as a female (non mother) wouldn't be happy. Maybe the man in question wasn't happy to take his DD into a male changing room, you'll never know. and for those who read I thought YANBU and he should NOT have been there. I didn't say he should have been there.

JoinYourPlayfellows Wed 05-Feb-14 15:26:23

Maybe the man in question wasn't happy to take his DD into a male changing room

Tough shit if there hadn't been a family room, but there was.

Either way, he doesn't get to go into the women's.

If he thinks men are so pervy that his little girls had better not be near them in a state of undress, best he doesn't bring her swimming at all.

ErrolTheDragon Wed 05-Feb-14 15:34:38

Minion - In cases like yours, it would appear the issue is that there is inadequate provision for children with disabilities. Perhaps you should raise it with the management before your DS reaches 8?

One place I go to has mens, womens and a disabled changing room - this is a safe space for a disabled child (or adult, I guess) to change with their helper regardless of gender.

Stinklebell Wed 05-Feb-14 15:46:51

Maybe the man in question wasn't happy to take his DD into a male changing room, you'll never know

Sorry, but that's too bad. There was a family changing area available, he should've used that.

Adult males should not be in female changing rooms, adult females should not be in male changing rooms.

Whether I should get over my 'hang ups' is beside the point, I do not expect to find an adult male in a female changing room. My 12 year old, who is just hitting puberty and is extremely embarrassed about the changes to her body should not have to deal with an adult male in a female only changing room either.

And yes, when my daughters were younger and went swimming with DH without me, they went in the men's changing room, DH accompanying them into the female changing rooms was never an option

IceBeing Wed 05-Feb-14 16:13:44

I find it uncomfortable to be naked in front of strangers but I can't say it matters much which variety of bits they happen to have.

I would find it more uncomfortable to be naked in front of acquaintances than strangers, again their sex organs don't make much difference.

I don't feel differently about men or women seeing DD (2.5) naked. I don't think DD feels differently about male or female naked bodies she sees.

I would imagine given the shear volume of photos of naked people on the internet available for free any time any place, the thrill of the peeping tom is in doing something illicit not in seeing people naked. IF all changing was mixed sex the peeping tom would presumably cease to exist.....

"If all changing was mixed sex..."

the number of people swimming and using the gym would drop by at least half IMO as most people do not want to be seen naked by the opposite sex

K8Middleton Wed 05-Feb-14 16:22:16

Oh FFS. If you can't stick to some basic rules then you can't do the activity.

Not wanting your child to be changing in the men's means you make choices. Either you go to a facility that has family cubicles or you don't go swimming. It does not mean you are allowed to invade the privacy of others by using the wrong changing room.

If the rules somewhere make life difficult then the choices are to persuade the venue to make changes or go elsewhere. If the rules are somehow discriminatory you have legal redress and a public interest that can effect change.

In no circumstances is it acceptable to just make up your own rules because you don't like the existing ones. That is just unbelievably entitled antisocial and selfish.

I do think some of you are just posting some ridiculous things because you are contrary, not because you really think it is acceptable to behave like that.

IceBeing Wed 05-Feb-14 16:23:33

oh I mean the OP is NBU...as you say the rules are that it is women only. I just think the rules are counter productive and stupid in the long run.

GhoulWithADragonTattoo Wed 05-Feb-14 16:29:41

RestingActress - I the comments re unisex changing rooms are anticipating communal showers in which you keep costumes on and then cubicles of various sizes to meet the needs of individuals, families, those with disabilities etc. I don't think anyone means changing in a communal area in front of people of the opposite sex smile

2rebecca Wed 05-Feb-14 16:30:32

Mixed sex changing rooms tend to be cubicle only. At my pool everyone goes into cubicles and there is no open space where people can get changed outwith a cubicle.
It's a simple solution. No-one gets naked in front of anyone unless they choose to share a cubicle.

K8Middleton Wed 05-Feb-14 16:31:36

I wasn't FFS-ing at you IceBeing. It was a general FFS to all those thinking it's fine to just act like they own the place.

Just in case you thought I was being terribly rude.

limitedperiodonly Wed 05-Feb-14 16:32:42

Most men in this situation would say to their female partners: 'Sorry, I can't take DD swimming because she insists on going into the women's changing room and I will look like a pervert. I might even get into trouble.'

Most women would say: 'I see what you mean, dear. Why don't I take her swimming and you do some other wholesome bit of exercise with her like kicking a ball around in the park?'

This man likes looking at naked women (normal for straight men) but likes intimidating them more (not fucking normal at all).

bodygoingsouth Wed 05-Feb-14 16:36:03

I imagine it's his excuse to go into the women's changing room. he needs to be stopped as he could pose a risk. no normal man would do this.

he's lying. report report. they will be able to pick him out in CCTV.

I would have concerns for his dd too.
.

AngelaDaviesHair Wed 05-Feb-14 16:42:30

I find it bizarre this is even being debated. Of course he was wrong to use the women's changing room.

And if a woman tried to sue the men's changing room on the same basis, I don't think they'd be all 'cool' about it. I think she'd get told.

bodygoingsouth Wed 05-Feb-14 16:43:37

to add if I saw a bloke in the female changing rooms where I go with my teen dds he would be lucky not to get a slap in the face. o would assume he was a pervert. I would most certainly challenge him and insisted he leave.

to add I dislike intensity little boys running around the female changing room, toddlers fine but I have complained about kids who are yes 7 but staring at the women. it's not on.

I never took my dds into the female after 5 years old we used the family room and yes you sometimes have to wait. tough.

bodygoingsouth Wed 05-Feb-14 16:46:05

sorry never too dss into the female past 5 either.

Misspixietrix Wed 05-Feb-14 17:07:28

No body is acting like they own the place though are they? Well apart from the Man in OP. Right?

Daykin Wed 05-Feb-14 17:10:11

Misspixietrix I see. Girls want to get changed in the girls - fair enough, until the girls is no longer the girls as it has men in. I saw a little girl almost hysterical at the thought of changing in front of my ds and some other boys. She was 4 at the oldest, as were the boys (pre-school swimming class during school hours). Little girls can get upset by things like that but making the female open plan changing into unisex does nothing to help the situation.

K8Middleton If you hadn't married William I would be down on one knee in front of you, blushing and stammering about 'forever'.

It makes absolutely no sense on any level to say small girls shouldn't have to change in the mens because men can see them and then say in the same breath that men should go into the womens with their ddd meaning all the girls and woman need to change in front of men.

WanderingAway Wed 05-Feb-14 17:15:51

At our local pool there is only one set of showers and changing area.

So you come out of the pool, have a shower and then go into a cubicle and get changed. It works quite well. I thought all swimming pools were like this. Having male and female areas is silly in my opinion.

bodygoingsouth Wed 05-Feb-14 17:18:32

I actually can't believe that anyone thinks this is appropriate at all.

absolutely fucking unbelievable. he's a pervert using his dd as an excuse. no one could possibly be that stupid,crass and naive.

Misspixietrix Wed 05-Feb-14 17:20:14

Glad you understand Daykin. I've repeatedly stated throughout this thread that he was BU and was just replying to one poster why taking them in MCR may not work with all. Obviously a minority but you get what I'm saying. So was a bit confused at the whole thing!

2rebecca Wed 05-Feb-14 18:01:11

If a girl is getting hysterical at being in a changing room with boys in then why not just wait until a cubicle is free? I've never been to a swimming pool that had single sex changing areas that didn't have cubicles as well as an open changing area. You wait a couple of minutes and then use a cubicle, or just put your costume on under your clothes and then you only have to wait for a cubicle to get changed back.
Unisex changing rooms are always cubicle only so yes, making female changing areas unisex does solve the problem. You do need more space for unisex cubicle only changing rooms though so old swimming pools are probably stuck with what they have.
If my son had made a fuss about changing in the women's changing room and his dad was unable to take him then he wouldn't have got to go swimming at that time and we'd have done something else.

Daykin Wed 05-Feb-14 18:59:17

I've never been to a swimming pool that had single sex changing areas that didn't have cubicles as well as an open changing area.

This one doesn't. Its a rectangular room with lockers running down one wall and a bench in the middle with a metal rail above it for hanging your coat. It has a very '50's feel. There is a communal shower at one end and two cubicles - with toilets in them.

Unisex changing rooms are always cubicle only so yes, making female changing areas unisex does solve the problem.

It would solve the problem if the management re-assigned the changing room and built cubicles. What I meant by 'unisex' is men simply using the room as if they owned it as is, and it therefore becoming unisex by default. I didn't put it very well.

Liara Wed 05-Feb-14 19:49:21

*I frankly find it more acceptable than changing a little girl in the men's changing rooms.

Um why? because little girls don't want to get undressed in front of strange men? Yes, that's why it was inappropriate for him to go in the women's changing room!*

Sorry, been a while.

No, because a men's changing room could be an intimidating place for a small girl.

I don't see why it follows that it was inappropriate for him to go to the women's changing rooms, if by your own logic little girls are equally likely to be in the men's.

This isn't about what little girls like at all, it's about the grown women objecting. And that's what I find silly, the notion that adult women's wants on this trivial matter trump that of a small girl's.

ifyourehoppyandyouknowit Wed 05-Feb-14 19:56:02

But the wants of a room full of adult women to be able to change without a grown man in the room DO trump the wants of a four year old girl.

ifyourehoppyandyouknowit Wed 05-Feb-14 19:56:32

And it's not a trivial matter.

K8Middleton Wed 05-Feb-14 20:02:02

Oh give over Liara you're just being contrary. I don't believe you really think that. It's not even rational.

You're just having us on aren't you?!

2rebecca Wed 05-Feb-14 20:02:05

Why should a small girl's wants trump that of adult women, especially when the law is on the side of the women?
If the small girl doesn't want to get changed with her father in a cubicle in the men's changing room and she isn't old enough to get changed alone then she doesn't get to go swimming. I wouldn't expect my son's wishes to over rule the wishes of adult men if he wanted me to go to the men's changing room with him because the female changing room was "for girls" and he had a little tantrum.
Are we just so used to princessy hissy fits from modern little girls that everyone else should play second fiddle to them and some of you believe all men are paedophiles and men's changing rooms are scary places?

NewtRipley Wed 05-Feb-14 20:03:05

K8

There's a lot of that about tonight

Liara Wed 05-Feb-14 20:06:02

Why is that not rational?

If there were a pile of towels, and I was on the verge of getting a green one but a child came and said they really wanted the green one I would give it to them and take one of another colour.

Because I'm the grown up, and frankly, I'm just not that infantile.

This situation strikes me as the same.

Grennie Wed 05-Feb-14 20:06:45

Wanderingaway - Does nobody in your pool have a shower without their swimming costume on then?

BookFairy Wed 05-Feb-14 20:13:00

How strange. No man that I know would think it was acceptable to go into the female changing area. I can't decide if he is an idiot, a pervert, or a bit of both. Either way, he is clearly BU.

fragola Wed 05-Feb-14 20:13:25

Liara, am I right in saying that you think that a woman not wanting an unknown man to see her naked is infantile? I would say the opposite. Generally infants don't mind who sees them naked...

NewtRipley Wed 05-Feb-14 20:13:55

Liara

It is not remotely the same

Liara Wed 05-Feb-14 20:16:42

I am saying that a woman objecting to a man maybe catching a glimpse of her naked while changing his daughter really needs to revise her views on how interesting she would be to said man.

And that the tiny discomfort she might feel is frankly something she should be able to get over. And not being able to do so is infantile.

It is threads like this that remind me why I can't go back to living in the UK. Prudishness gorne mad!

ifyourehoppyandyouknowit Wed 05-Feb-14 20:18:53

Yes, but the choice it's between her not having the towel and crying, and you giving her the towel and also stripping naked in front of her dad. Just so she gets what she wants? No thanks.

JoinYourPlayfellows Wed 05-Feb-14 20:19:03

a men's changing room could be an intimidating place for a small girl.

No more intimidating than a women's changing room.

Small girls haven't yet imbibed the message that men's changing rooms are dangerous places full of nefarious paedophiles that even their own father's presence won't deter.

The wants of one small girl don't trump the needs of female humans of all ages to have spaces they feel safe and where they can be naked without men being present.

Our pool only has unisex changing rooms now

bodygoingsouth Wed 05-Feb-14 20:22:08

liara are you saying that you would find it acceptable to have an adult male in a changing room where you and your teenage dds were changing?

are you really this daft or are you a naturist/exhibitionist.

and as got the green towel thing? no if I had the towel first and a kid 'wanted' it then I would assume said child was a brat and say no.

my kids did as they were told by me and dh by the age of 4 and certainly wouldn't dream of tantrumming.

any child of ours bratting like that would bloody miss the swim.

BookFairy Wed 05-Feb-14 20:22:46

Some people are down with public nudity. That's fine. There are those of us who aren't down with public nudity. That's also fine. The fact of the matter is, if you go to a gym/leisure centre that has separate male/female changing you must abide by the rules.

NewtRipley Wed 05-Feb-14 20:23:08

Liara

Another ridiculous statement.

K8Middleton Wed 05-Feb-14 20:24:59

I'm not sure it is possible to have a sensible discussion with someone who equates a woman's right to privacy with a toddler's preference for a towel.

Liara if you had perhaps chosen a better analogy with something of equal or similar importance/value it might have made more sense. Let's say a passing toddler takes a fancy to your handbag with valuable things like your car and house keys, irreplaceable photos of your children, your diary, your iphone and your Chanel lipstick. You'd just give it to her even though she has no right to it and you'd think it ok if her dad said she could have it to avoid a meltdown? Seriously? I do not believe you would.

Women = more important than towels. Hth.

The swimming pool I used to use in the UK had about 7 cubicles in the single-sex changing rooms. In the women's anyway - not sure about the men's obviously.

The swimming pools in Germany almost all have communal changing rooms, but the difference is that it's ALL cubicles - at the one we regularly use there are probably about 80 cubicles and they are big enough to take a small child or two in with you. I expect there are bigger ones with disabled facilities, but I haven't looked for them.

Why is a men's changing room intimidating but a woman's one not? Is a woman's changing room intimidating for a small boy?

I just find this really bizarre. I've literally never come across the notion before that small children shouldn't be in a men's changing room (with their fathers)

NewtRipley Wed 05-Feb-14 20:27:06

Ah but K8

people's desire not to been seen naked is of no value to Liara because she thinks it's down to British prudishness and could have no other basis or meaning to someone who is not her.

K8Middleton Wed 05-Feb-14 20:29:00

She is clearly on a wind up. So I will just ignore her smile

Daykin Wed 05-Feb-14 20:34:15

Going along with the women=towels argument, what happens when 4yo's dad goes into the room where he isn't allowed to be and is welcomed by all the naked ladies who know their place and a different 4yo child refuses to change in front of the original 4yo's dad. What happens then? Do we assume that the second 4yo is an unreasonable prude who has no right to have any opinion on who they strip off in front of whereas original 4yo is....making a perfectly valid choice confused

Daykin Wed 05-Feb-14 20:35:15

Can't believe I am still posting on this thread. I'm going to get DP to hide the wifi password.

Liara Wed 05-Feb-14 20:38:49

liara are you saying that you would find it acceptable to have an adult male in a changing room where you and your teenage dds were changing?

Yes, which is fortunate as I would have no choice in my public swimming pool in France where I live (though I don't have teenage daughters, so it's just my uninteresting body around to be ignored seen)

I just don't get why women think being seen naked is such a big fucking deal, I guess.

Fortunately, nor does just about anyone where I live.

Liara Wed 05-Feb-14 20:39:48

And no, I am not on the wind up. Just baffled by the attitudes on this thread.

BookFairy Wed 05-Feb-14 20:41:31

You're the one who's baffled? confused

RufusTheReindeer Wed 05-Feb-14 20:41:38

So is it therefore ok for my 12 year old daughter to be made to undress in front of a man who happens to be in the female changing rooms

She would be mortified, (I would be furious)

But I suppose I should just tell her to crack on.... Or that's what some people seem to be saying

Really interesting thread (in spite of the mudslinging, but hey ho).

I personally like the Scandi-continental attitude where nudity and sexuality are not linked, people of different ages and genders quite happily change / swim / sauna / steam / etc together in various states of undress.

I grew up in a pretty clothes-free house though grin and I hope I would not foist my own views on people who grew up differently. This whole fear of nudity is a pretty Anglo-Saxon thing on the whole though I think. Apart from Muslim people. And not sure about nudity in Asia. Hmm interesting, as I said.

RufusTheReindeer Wed 05-Feb-14 20:43:57

Just checked with her, she's looking a bit gob smacked to be honest

NewtRipley Wed 05-Feb-14 20:44:42

Liara

Then the problem is your inability to see the point, and your misfortune is being unable to imagine anything outside your personal experience

CrohnicallyFarting Wed 05-Feb-14 20:45:24

OK, Liara forget about the nakedness etc for the moment.

It's the rule at this swimming baths that people over the age of 8 are not allowed in the opposite sex changing room. The dad knowingly broke the rule to avoid his DD having a tantrum. Obviously he WBU, otherwise it would be acceptable to break rules on the whim of a 4 year old, which means nobody would bother to follow the rules ever, and without rules society as we know it would not exist.

NewtRipley Wed 05-Feb-14 20:46:36

OK

I'm off now.

Liara. Apologies for the tone of my last post

BarbarianMum Wed 05-Feb-14 20:49:02

I find it amazing that anyone thinks it is reasonable for a man to use the women's changing room.

I find it amazing that anyone finds it inappropriate for a man to take his small daughter into the mens to get changed.

I must be really naive blush.

Liara Wed 05-Feb-14 20:50:40

heartstrumpsdiamonds, don't know about most of Asia, but in Japan there is generally a fairly relaxed attitude to naked bathing with people of different sexes/ages (to the shock of many of my Anglo Saxon friends there).

Chronically, I guess I think there are important rules and rather silly rules. If we followed every single rule then we wouldn't do much in life (certainly not in France, where everything seems to be 'interdit'). I took this to be a debate about whether the rule was important or silly. I vote for the latter, but I gather I am on my own. Not an uncommon feeling, round here.

I've been in a sauna with my (German) friend, her DH, her sister, the sister's boyfriend, another couple and her brother. Naked as the day we were born.

Took a minute of getting used to, even for me grin

Misspixietrix Wed 05-Feb-14 20:51:28

Bertie if that was aimed at me. I've explained countless times already why it might not be. Daykin understood.

Liara Wed 05-Feb-14 20:51:38

Newt. No problem, I'm not easily offended. Thanks for the apology.

Liara, thanks. Only place in Asia I have ever been is Bangkok.

WanderingAway Wed 05-Feb-14 20:54:52

Grennie - in the twenty odd years that i have been using my local swimming pool i have never seen anyone shower naked. It has never been a problem either.

A social anthropologist would be fascinated by this thread.

Nudity as a social construct. Gender segregation as a social norm. Etc.

CrohnicallyFarting Wed 05-Feb-14 20:56:58

It doesn't matter if it's an 'important' rule or a 'silly' one.

The rule is there, and the women using the changing rooms were aware that the rule is there. Had the rule not been there, they could have made an informed decision whether or not to use the changing room knowing that a member of the opposite sex could see them, or get changed under a towel, or avoid that particular swimming baths. By breaking the rule without prior acknowledgement, the man took that informed consent away from the women, and that is the problem.

I have been seen naked by several men and it doesn't bother me any more than being seen naked by a woman- but each time it was with my consent.

CrohnicallyFarting Wed 05-Feb-14 21:01:16

I guess it would be like disrobing for a female nurse for a smear test, but a man bursting in and performing the smear instead. It would bother me and I would put in an official complaint, yet in the past I have had male doctors perform my c section, a colonoscopy, and a vaginal swab. Not at the same time, I hasten to add!

DayAfterYesterday Wed 05-Feb-14 21:07:39

If no family area is provided then children who cannot change themselves should be in the whatever area is the gender of the adult with them. No grey area here.
And the fact changing in front of men has been compared to changing in front of lesbian and bi women is ignorant, offensive and ridiculous

2rebecca Wed 05-Feb-14 23:17:50

I agree, you obey the rules of the changing area you go to, or choose not to go there if you don't like them.
I have been in mixed naked saunas when abroad, but that doesn't mean I'd walk into a sauna that stated it was men only and complain they were prudes if they complained.
People who don't like mixed naked saunas avoid them.
This changing room was women and small children only.
The women and teenage girls who prefer single sex changing don't get to feel uncomfortable to keep one child and her father happy.

Misspixietrix Thu 06-Feb-14 07:22:04

Again Day. Some might not like to. For reasons other than just being 'tantrummy'.

TamerB Thu 06-Feb-14 07:22:38

It is a question of knowing the rules and following them, with everyone comfortable because they know what to expect. Iceland has very different rules in swimming pools,which were a shock to British school children, but they had ample warning before they went. You abide by the rules or you don't swim.
In UK women and girls expect female changing rooms to be just that and if he didn't like it he needed to travel to a swimming pool with cubicles for anyone. ( more common these days anyway).

Grennie Thu 06-Feb-14 09:49:55

Yes I have been in mixed saunas naked. I chose to go to them. When I go in a woman's changing room, I do not want to see asult men in there. I choose to use the changing room, knowing what the rules are.

DayAfterYesterday Thu 06-Feb-14 11:09:51

Miss pixie some might not like to what? Follow the rules? No adult should be in the changing room for the opposite gender there is no reason why they should be children should be taken into whatever changing room their guardian should be in, not even sure why this would be up for debate

ifyourehoppyandyouknowit Thu 06-Feb-14 11:20:44

Can some of the supporters of this man please explain why it would be OK for him to bring his daughter into the women's changing rooms because she finds the idea of the men's so distressing (for some, potentially horrific, reason) that she can't cope. When in a few years time she would be the woman in the dressing room (that she considered to be a safe and private space) having to get changed in front of an unknown man because some guy brought his child in there... It's just such a stupid and circular argument. If you have issues with using the appropriate changing rooms, then the answer is not to just flout the rules, it's to find a work around - such as using the family changing rooms or find a pool with unisex changing rooms etc. How is this a 12 page discussion?

TamerB Thu 06-Feb-14 11:23:57

Beyond anything else the man is putting himself at risk- my DH was very careful of his position with other people's children- things can be misconstrued. Very silly of him.

Goldmandra Thu 06-Feb-14 11:27:44

How is this a 12 page discussion?

Bizarre isn't it?

There are a fair few comments from people who think we are all pushed into behaving inappropriately in order to avoid tantrums at times and don't get that most people aren't.

Perhaps it is just that they think anyone else's need for privacy and dignity automatically comes second to avoiding toddler tantrums.

TamerB Thu 06-Feb-14 11:42:52

I wouldn't mind so much if it was a sensible way to deal with a tantrum!
He is simply a wet parent.

Misspixietrix Thu 06-Feb-14 11:43:09

Dayafteryesterday did you even read my posts? Daykin obviously did. Because she understood. What with her being a fellow victim etc. Some children might not like to go into a room full of men. I've already explained it countless times on here why people like my sister wouldn't have been 'comfortable' with it and also said I'm not prepared to go into any more detail no matter how many times posters try and jump on an argument that isn't bloody there!!

Misspixietrix Thu 06-Feb-14 11:45:32

Hopalong who are the Supporters? I've already stated he was BU. <looks for others>. Nope. Nothing.

ifyourehoppyandyouknowit Thu 06-Feb-14 11:47:56

But people have said that the four year old's desire to change in the women's (and have her dad with her) should trump the rights of the adult women to change in a female only space. I never said that you argued that.

Misspixietrix Thu 06-Feb-14 11:51:43

Well I don't agree with that obviously. I also don't agree with someone telling others that he simply should have took her into the men's changing room. Both are wrong. IMO. For the reasons I've stated. He should have took her into the Family Room. He was a prize idiot for doing so and I'm sure OP won't be seeing him in there again if he has any sense! grin.

DayAfterYesterday Thu 06-Feb-14 12:01:10

I haven't read every post no but my opinion is the same, obviously if there is personal reason why a child can't go into the men's then they shouldn't they should either go to family changing or of that isn't available they should find another establishment to go to, fact remains no adult man should enter the ladies changing area for any reason, that part at least is black and white no?

I have an Almost 8 year old boy with sn, I wouldn't dream of going into the mens.

Misspixietrix Thu 06-Feb-14 12:05:40

Of course it is black and white. I've repeatedly stated that he was BU.

HelloBoys Thu 06-Feb-14 14:08:18

MissPixie - are you on my wavelength?! grin

But I would not be happy with any girls of an age in a male changing room.

My original argument was IF there was no FAMILY changing room then I supposed the man could have used the women's changing room (even then I think that's off but eg if there were cubicles, he'd asked etc (asked being operative word) then why not.

And I'm sorry but will state it time and time again, YES I do think men are more likely to be pervs, paedos etc than women and I wouldn't take the chance with my little girl (if I had one) in a male changing room. Of course there are female paedos but as I said before I think (not going to check stats) they do not outnumber the men.

Of course the above will bring as yesterday people piling on again.

bodygoingsouth Thu 06-Feb-14 14:17:27

the man needs a slap. if he had barged into the female changing room when I or my dds were in there getting changed he would have got one as I would have assumed he was a weird perv and I don't like men gawping at my teen dds. so good job for him he didn't meet me.

as for the child she is either a brat or being used by her father for his own sexual gratification to access female changing areas.

either way he needs stopping and reporting.

bodygoingsouth Thu 06-Feb-14 14:20:29

to add it's fairly immaterial what goes in in Scandinavia or indeed France!

have been to both and they are by no means the fantastic paradise of understanding and sexual maturity some like to portray.

thanks but keep your bits to yourself. most are highly unattractive anyway. both sexes.

it's not the norm here and he broke the rules.

ProudAS Thu 06-Feb-14 15:16:28

OK so men are more likely to be paedophiles but just what are they going to do with child's father present!!!

Immaterial anyway as there was a separate family changing area.

NewtRipley Thu 06-Feb-14 16:19:06

Excellent post Crohnically

Misspixietrix Thu 06-Feb-14 16:41:40

Proud that doesn't mean you should force an abuse victim into that area though is it? hmm. Jeez its really not that hard to comprehend!

CrohnicallyFarting Thu 06-Feb-14 20:20:11

OK misspixie, we get that it would not have been possible for your sister to have accompanied a male carer into the male changing rooms and therefore anybody who dared to suggest that a girl accompanies a man into the changing rooms is unreasonable. Even though it's what many other girls have done with their dads in the past.

The facts remain that it is not reasonable for the male carer to accompany a girl into the female changing rooms, leaving the following options:
Girl changes herself in female changing rooms.
If that's not possible: male helps girl change in family changing rooms
If that's not possible: choose a different swimming baths with appropriate changing room ie family/unisex
If that's not possible: arrange to go swimming with a female friend or relative who can supervise the girl changing
If that's not possible: don't go swimming till one of the above is possible

Misspixietrix Thu 06-Feb-14 20:46:31

Good you all get it. Only had to repeat it several thousand times. I never actually said otherwise re the man in the female changing rooms. Its all there if people bother to read the thread.

jellyandcake Thu 06-Feb-14 21:06:15

hello you are now bringing a man WHO COULD BE A PAEDOPHILE into the women's changing rooms! So now you have terrible paedophiles in BOTH changing rooms! So where do all the little girls get changed?

And if the men's changing rooms are such nests of perverts, should little boys get changed in there either?

In fact since your argument seems to be that it is likely one will encounter paedophiles in the male changing rooms, should we let men go swimming at all?

CrohnicallyFarting Thu 06-Feb-14 21:06:25

I did read the thread. The problem is, by concentrating your argument on your sister being unable to use the male changing room, it does sound like you are defending the man's actions and saying he was being reasonable (as he could have a similar reason for not taking her in the men's rather than just avoiding a tantrum).

And I was being sarcastic when I said "anybody who dared to suggest that a girl accompanies a man into the changing rooms is unreasonable" as I thought my next sentence showed. In actual fact, I think it's perfectly reasonable given that small boys are expected to accompany their mums into the female changing room. Your sister is an exception, there will always be exceptions, but we can't base the rules on the minority.

So I don't actually get why you brought the subject of your sister up! And nobody mentioned 'forcing' anybody into the opposite gendered changing room, never mind an abuse victim. It was suggested as one possible solution, there are other possible solutions as I mentioned above.

Misspixietrix Thu 06-Feb-14 21:31:07

If you read it chrohnic then you will know I was simply responding to ONE poster who said he should have took DD into MCR. In fact I wasn't the only one to say no he shouldn't he should have took her into the Family Room. I do not sound like I am defending him because I have already stated that yes he seemed a bit thick/arsey/made a monumental mistake BUT He was STILL BU.

Misspixietrix Thu 06-Feb-14 21:33:08

And no we can't base the rules on the minority which is why the first time I mentioned it in one of my posts I added (I appreciate she's in the minority).

CrohnicallyFarting Thu 06-Feb-14 21:48:04

I'm not sure which is the ONE poster you are referring to, tbh. If it was pimpf then it sounds like they were talking about a situation that happened at their local pool- where there may not have been family changing rooms, leaving only the options of male or female.

Misspixietrix Thu 06-Feb-14 21:57:07

No it was somebody else IIRC just basically said he SHOULD have took her into the Men's. To which I and others said. That isn't feasable (sp?) For the very rare reasons I've stated.

CrohnicallyFarting Thu 06-Feb-14 22:07:32

I think I found it, it was one poster who only seemed to post that one comment.

*Surely he should have taken her into the men's change room? Even if he is the nicest least leery man in the world, grown men do not go into women's changing rooms under any circumstances.

If this was to happen again, I think you should alert the staff to come and deal with him and the toddler.*

To be honest, I think they didn't read the thread (maybe just read the title), as the comment didn't flow from any of the ones before. So they didn't realise there was a family change available, and thought 'well, he definitely shouldn't have taken her in the women's' and deduced that meant they had to go in the men's, as that was the only alternative to the women's.

I don't think they meant that they should have gone in the men's rather than the family room! And they didn't hang around to read the clarifications regarding the fact that there WAS a family room available.

CrohnicallyFarting Thu 06-Feb-14 22:15:53

So to summarise:
Everybody says dad should have taken daughter in family room.
Some people chip in with anecdotes about pools where there are no family change.
Random poster gets confused and thinks there is no family change and therefore says they should have been in male changing.
Argument gets sidetracked a little by people discussing merits of changing small children in opposite sex changing rooms.
You come by and say 'but my sister wouldn't have gone in the men's'.
Although you were talking to random poster, your comment comes in the middle of the argument sidetracking people, so your comment has the undertones of 'she wouldn't have gone in the men's so she would have had to go in the ladies with dad'- don't forget we have been discussing situations where there is no family change, only men's or women's and your comment was read in that context.

Can you see now why people think you were defending the dad?

Misspixietrix Thu 06-Feb-14 22:36:52

No. Because I wasn't defending him confused. The only people that would think that. Are the ones that didn't read the thread.

Dubjackeen Thu 06-Feb-14 22:42:24

OP, YANBU, you did the right thing. Next time, if there is a next time, he should be reported to staff. I don't have children, but tried to picture any of my brothers or brother in law doing what this guy did. Thankfully, I can't picture it, they just wouldn't even think of doing it.

CrohnicallyFarting Thu 06-Feb-14 22:47:02

I did read the thread, and I wasn't entirely sure which side you were on. You seemed to be saying 'he wasn't reasonable, but there might have been extenuating circumstances' or maybe 'that particular man wasn't reasonable, but if a man had done it under these specific circumstances that apply to my sister, that would have been reasonable'

I read your comments about your sister in the context of the argument about whether men would perv on small girls. I didn't relate it to your earlier comments at all.

Misspixietrix Thu 06-Feb-14 22:52:24

No. I think he was thick. smile to put it politely. But still unreasonable. As I stated many times.

ShowMeSaturn Fri 07-Feb-14 01:01:26

I've been swimming my whole childhood and adult life and never once seen a naked adult walking around the changing rooms or showers - and I've lived in all four corners of this country.

Personally, I can't see the problem. If his daughter felt more comfortable in the female changing area than in the grown male adults changing area, her dad was putting her interests first.

Is this the same bunch of women who complain about fathers using the milk warmer in the desginated breastfeeding areas? I think so. Pfftt.

Grennie Fri 07-Feb-14 01:05:23

I have seen plenty of half naked women drying their top halfs with the costume down. Remember there are no cubicles.

Is this the same MN that thinks it is totally wrong for a father to take photos of children in a play, but being in a changing room meant for girls and women is fine?

TamerB Fri 07-Feb-14 07:19:30

I have seen plenty of naked women under the shower, every time I go to my local pool in fact so you must have missed my corner!
The father wasn't acting in the best interest of the child, he was demonstrating lazy parenting of 'anything for a quiet life'.

TamerB Fri 07-Feb-14 07:21:18

I should tell him in no uncertain terms that be could deal with the tantrum and if he didn't move I should report him to the management.

bodygoingsouth Fri 07-Feb-14 08:02:22

this thread is Barmy!!

no no under no circumstances should he have set foot into the female only changing area. if my dds had been half naked in there and a random bloke walked in I would assume he was a pervert and, depending upon my mood, slap his face hard and report him at once, or order him to leave at once and report him.

I wouldn't dream of walking into the make changing room either.

whether or not he had his dd with him is completely immaterial.

bodygoingsouth Fri 07-Feb-14 08:04:32

and yes plenty of women walk around naked in our pool area too. it can be a bit ott actually. grin

TamerB Fri 07-Feb-14 08:05:40

It is a barmy thread! Lazy, wet parent doesn't want to deal with a tantrum so he would rather upset a roomful of women and people try and justify his selfish behaviour!

Daykin Fri 07-Feb-14 08:32:15

showmesaturn you should come to my gym. We even have topless hair drying - usually performed by those who are very proud of their new boobs. I would hate to not have a proper shower after swimming. The same changing room serves the gym and naturally people who've ben using the gym strip off to shower. People do generally drape themselves in a towel when walking about but it would be near impossible to not expose some of your body at some point.
I'm amazed that anyone can use open plan changing and have never seen anyone in the nuddy. I am also amazed by the number of people who have said on this thread and other similar ones 'surely you are in a cubicle' when it says in the OP that it's "shared facilities (just a few cubicles)".

bodygoingsouth Fri 07-Feb-14 09:07:00

you know what I think there maybe a difference here between people describing council run swimming pools and private gyms with pools.

and if course the man was a twat/perv.

indyandlara Fri 07-Feb-14 09:13:20

Completely wrong. A few months ago DH was changing our daughter for swimming lessons. She is 4. He used the open, male changing room which can be used for family groups or individuals. A woman was changing her older child in there too. The women's room is next door. When DH pointed out that she was in the wrong room she became abusive and said she could change her child where she liked. He said that as he was going to get changed too, she had no business being in there. She stormed out. At the end of the lesson her husband appeared shouting and threatening DH and saying he was a weirdo. He continued to threaten to beat him up, in front of our daughter.

Use the right changing rooms people.

Daykin Fri 07-Feb-14 09:18:01

I swim at 3 pools (for boring reasons)

Pool 1 - council - changing village
Pool2 - council - 1950's style open plan - no cubicles at all - big square shower with unnecessarily close together shower heads - yellow tiles - everyone looks jaundiced - lots of nudity
Pool 3 - private - open plan with 3 cubicles - even more nudity - lots of rubbing lotions on

The changing village one was open plan until about 5 years ago. I'm sure lots of older council pools still are.

IDontDoIroning Sat 08-Feb-14 11:40:52

It's simple anyone over the age of 8 uses their correct gender changing rooms. ( I'm assuming both parties have no sn)
If you are over 8 and are accompanying anyone under 8 then you go in the correct room for the over 8 yo.
Dad should have gone in mens with dd. if she didn't like it then he should have either used the family room or not gone swimming.

yes there may be nasty paedos in there but she was with her dad so wouldn't have need vulnerable. Anyway I know that nasty paedos are everywhere hmm but based on the fact he had a child the dad was more likely to be a pervy hetero and possibly enjoying the odd flash of adult lady.

One person not being bothered by letting it all hang out for all and sundry to see does not trump another persons need for privacy whether it's personal due to surgery cultural or religious.

Otherwise it is a get out if jail free card (literally) for any would be peeping tom with a child.

VegetariansTasteLikeChicken Sat 08-Feb-14 12:06:14

At the end of the lesson her husband appeared shouting and threatening DH and saying he was a weirdo. He continued to threaten to beat him up, in front of our daughter.

charming, and wtf didn't he take their child in the changing room if it needed to be in the men's? confused

Inertia Sat 08-Feb-14 12:25:32

OP YANBU, and I would definitely report him if he is the women's changing room next time. Whether he is doing it for nefarious reasons or because he believes his daughter's demands trump everyone else's needs and the pool rules, the fact is that he shouldn't have been there.

In our family if a 4 yo had thrown a tantrum about which changing room to use then swimming would be cancelled.

Perhaps pool managers need to add to the signs for the hard-of-thinking , to explain that children over 8 are not allowed in the opposite-sex changing room, and adults are not allowed in the opposite-sex changing room at all.

If there are no suitable family facilities for children with SN over the age of 8, every pool should have an accessible changing facility suitable for people with additional needs or disabilities , so there is no need for a child over 8 or parent to use the opposite- sex changing room.

WaffilyVersatile Tue 11-Feb-14 08:15:09

This is being discussed on The Wright Stuff today...

VegetariansTasteLikeChicken Tue 11-Feb-14 09:11:25

There's a surprise

maleview70 Tue 11-Feb-14 09:23:36

It's odd that our European neighbours on the who wouldn't even bat an eyelid at this and have communal changing areas yet in prudish old England it's like the crime of the century.

VegetariansTasteLikeChicken Tue 11-Feb-14 10:53:47

Hmm after living in Europe for years, I'm going to go ahead and call bullshit and say that if a bathroom or a changing room said "women" on the outside I have never ran in to a man in there.

EVER.

Our European neighbors would have on occasion a unisex changing room in which case anyone entering would know what to expect.

Daykin Tue 11-Feb-14 10:55:42

It's not odd at all. Anyway, it's not about prudishness, it's about consent. I go into mixed changing rooms then I am giving consent to be in mixed changing rooms. I go in to female changing rooms then I don't want some arrogant tosser using the excuse that another woman, wholly unconnected with me, will happily use a mixed sex changing room and therefore I am a prude to not want this. I would never call my Muslim sisters odd for wanting female only swim sessions and drag my DH or teenage son along to them because in X/Y/Z country mixed swimming is normal.

VegetariansTasteLikeChicken Tue 11-Feb-14 11:07:17

Exactly Daykin, I'm not going to saunter around a pool in Saudi with my tits out and say it's OK in France.

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