Pit bull -- am I being unreasonable?

(118 Posts)
kcoll Wed 29-Jan-14 09:44:48

I LOVE dogs. I have had dogs my entire life, from the day I was born until recently, when I moved to a flat and sent my most beloved collie to live with my parents because they live in the countryside and could offer a better quality of life for her.

The reason I write is this is that I have a 9 month old baby, and my friend, who has a 10 month old baby, owns a pit bull mix. The dog was illegally imported on falsified papers, as they dog was DNA tested and confirmed to be part pit bull, part labrador. The dog looks very much like a pit bull -- quite large, highly muscular build, jaw, etc. The dog has a history of biting people (3 bites in its 9 year life span) and I have personally seen her nip at people's faces. She is an often sweet, but nervous and protective dog. I have seen her flash from timid to ferocious in an instant on more than one occasion.

I was fine to go to her house before I had a child. I know how to act around nervous dogs -- I would never put my face near the dog's, etc. But when I had my baby I told my friend that I could not go to her house anymore. She still invited me around...and I went because they said they would keep the dog in another room or outside. I have gone over a couple times and they do keep her away sometimes, and other times they try for a little while and then let the dog run around because the dog is crying and wants to be near her people, as dogs do. When this happens I hold my child far away from the dog. I would NEVER consider letting my child stay alone with them at their house as, even if they were being careful, the dog could get out and there is the chance of an attack. Particularly as the kids get older, all it takes if for one of them to let the dog out. Slim chance of danger but nonetheless I would never put my child at risk. This is not to mention that 2 children are killed a year by dangerous breeds (not labs or collies) -- that's a fact in black and white. There was a Jack Russell that was part of an attack once, and people hold that up as reasoning that it can be any dog, however it was a Jack Russell and a Staff bull terrier, which is basically a smaller various of a bit pull, and pack mentality can take over when more than one dog is involved in such cases.

The fact that she keeps her child around this dog makes me uncomfortable, frankly, because -- back to the statistics -- it is always (100%) of the time in the last 7 years in the UK, been the child of the family that dies (so statistically it would be her child not mine who is more at risk). Would you stand by and let a baby be at risk? I suppose there's nothing I can do by UK law....

Then recently I tried to organise a trip to a country hotel with this couple and another couple with the same aged baby. The hotel accepts dogs and i asked them not to bring their dog, and they have flatly refused not to bring the dog. We have gone away with them before with the dog and they let the dog run free and it made me INCREDIBLY nervous due to the dog's temperament, history of biting and it's genetic make-up -- these dogs are designed to kill other very strong dogs and humans, collies are designed to nip, labs are designed to carry things softly in their mouths, Jack Russells are designed to kill -- rats. I am nervous for the other unsuspecting children/parents and other dogs (my childhood dog was killed by our neighbour's pit bull mix). She is implying that I am being overly sensitive and unreasonable. What do you think and how would you handle the situation?

Dawndonnaagain Wed 29-Jan-14 09:47:23

Why have you not contacted the police. Will they still be your friends when somebody is seriously injured, or worse? The dog is illegal, that's it. No oversensitivity, no arguments, it's illegal, it's bitten, it's dangerous.

anchovies Wed 29-Jan-14 09:51:05

Obviously YANBU. I would never knowingly let my children (or even myself!) spend time with a nervous and protective dog with a history of biting people and becoming "ferocious". It needs reporting before someone gets seriously hurt, especially if the owners fail to see there's an issue.

Only1scoop Wed 29-Jan-14 09:52:26

Part Pit Bull Illegally imported on false papers. Makes my blood boil. People like that make me sick.
Answer to your question is simple if they insist on bringing their 'illegally imported Pitbull Cross' don't go.
As for it running loose there....just frightening.

IndridCold Wed 29-Jan-14 09:53:15

Pit bulls are illegal anyway, plus it's been imported illegally. Call police or council dog warden.

MaxsMummy2012 Wed 29-Jan-14 09:54:03

I agree, contact the police / rspca annonomously and tell them about the dog, then act shocked and surprised when your friends tell you about it, you'd never forgive yourself if anything happened to their kiddie or someone else.

basgetti Wed 29-Jan-14 09:54:19

YABU for having taken your baby round there at all! Call the police.

DustyBaubles Wed 29-Jan-14 09:55:41

Really all you have to do is call the police and have the dog confiscated.

It's as simple as that, you are seriously over thinking things, with your talk of statistics etc.

newestbridearound Wed 29-Jan-14 09:56:51

This sort of situation terrifies me. Please tell the police, as friendly as they think their dog is it only takes a split second for something to happen and like you say it nearly always ends up being a child in danger.

YANBU at all, I think your friend is being very unfair in making you feel so.

Lilicat1013 Wed 29-Jan-14 09:57:23

I think that the dog is a Pit Bull doesn't matter, any dog that has a history of biting people and continues to nip at people is a dangerous dog. I wouldn't take my child anywhere near it no matter what they promised about keeping the dog in another room.

Could you contact the RSPCA about your concerns for her child? I have a baby just a little bit older and there would be no way I would trust him around a dog, you couldn't explain to him why you don't grab it's face or pull it's tail he is too little to understand. I assume she keeps the separated but it only takes one mistake for a terrible consequence.

hiddenhome Wed 29-Jan-14 09:57:43

Never go there again esp. with your child.

Report to the police.

Gileswithachainsaw Wed 29-Jan-14 09:58:33

Yanbu. You need to call someone before that dog attacks and there's no alternative but PTS.

As it stands right now there may be a chance of behavioural training being successful but it needs doing by a professional and wre homed with someone who has the time knowledge and ability to do this.

The whole thing is awful sad illegal importing? Ffs no wonder the dogs got a nervous temperament god knows what happened to it having been looked after by idiots sad

What a waste , what a horrid situation for the family and a dog. sad

kcoll Wed 29-Jan-14 09:58:49

Thanks everyone -- that was my feeling as well, and I have been stupid and trying to keep the peace with a friend when the most important is the health of their child, my child and other unsuspecting people.

I looked into the laws and unfortunately while I can anonymously report the dog, then the authorities have to get a warrant. If they do then the dog goes before some kind of court and is either taken for good or given back with an exemption certificate. Apparently this happened in one case, and then the dog killed a child 8 months later.

I cannot have this knowledge on my conscience. Thanks again for your input, I try to take serious action.

UriGeller Wed 29-Jan-14 09:59:10

That is a tragedy waiting to happen.

When it does, how will you feel?

Much better to be pro-active.

LEMmingaround Wed 29-Jan-14 09:59:58

YANBU about this particular dog. It sounds like a time-bomb and a very unhappy dog. WHY did they have it imported? how did they manage it? The laws are quite strict about importing animals - if it is part pit-ball it needs to be tattood, microchipped and muzzled when in public at all times.

Also, they may well get a surprise if they pitch up with an obviously pit-bull type dog because most hotels have a list of dogs that they will not accept and i would imagine that "pit-bull type" or "bull terrier type" is right there at the top of it.

A staffordhire bull terrier is NOT a minature pit-bull hmm

I do get so cross about peoples ignorance regarding these dogs - it is people that make a nervous, aggressive dog, not their genetic make up. LMAO at pit-bulls being designed to kill humans. I also think if you do your research properly you would see that lots of "nice" labradors and collies bite. I have been bitten by both, working as a vet nurse, and a GSD but never a staffie, rottie or any other type of maligned breed.

softlysoftly Wed 29-Jan-14 10:02:40

YABU for not having reported the selfish woman as soon as she got it. The fact that there are 000's of perfectly good dogs here waiting for adoption means that by importing a "pit bull cross" the family are basically buying a status symbol. A dog shaped sign that says

"Aren't I hard , look at my huge cock"

People like that make bad owners which is why these dogs are such a problem rather than the dogs themselves iyswim.

Anyway you'd feel worse if it killed her child than you would reporting it. So do it today.

Finabhear Wed 29-Jan-14 10:03:25

I know I'm missing the point but why go to all the bother of illegally importing an illegal bread of dog?

Back on the point, yanbu.

That dog should be put down before it takes off someones face.

sebsmummy1 Wed 29-Jan-14 10:04:21

Terrifying. I love dogs but am exceptionally careful with them around my son as he is at face level and it is my responsibility to keep him safe.

First of all I would not let my child be anywhere near that dog. Secondly, would it be totally obvious it was you if you reported the dog? Does anyone else complain about it's behaviour? I would definitely want to report them if I knew it wasn't going to put me and my family at risk. I can't help wonder why someone would want to import a pit bull cross illegally unless they had plans to profit it in some way. Are they going to breed from it or use it to fight with do you think?

Owllady Wed 29-Jan-14 10:05:27

Of course you aren't being unreasonable

softlysoftly Wed 29-Jan-14 10:05:45

Bingo LEM yes labs etc bite more, but do they kill? No due to their size, temperament and strength.

I'm sure those horrible little snappy handbag dog things nip loads but the difference is between a small cut and a mauling.

Also the very makeup of the majority (not all before I get screamed at) of "bull" type owners make for a bad combination, they buy the dogs as a status symbol or for protection hmm, they are bad owners.

45redballoons Wed 29-Jan-14 10:06:39

I also think the fact it is a pitbull doesn't matter, many people (myself included) would disagree with what you have said about the risk of breeds.

However, she is been an idiot to get a dog illegally imported and she is an awful mother for allowing one with a history of biting to live in a house with her small child. I hate to say it as I know the dog will be put to sleep, but the child comes first, you have to call the police.

Why did she import it? Where were the dna tests done? Was it in this country? It seems very odd the whole thing, I'm wondering she really has imported it. Do you know what country it is from?

kcoll Wed 29-Jan-14 10:07:54

It has been spayed, and I believe the reason they have it is to look tough (they used to live in NYC when they go it -- selected it because it was a pit bull). They imported it because it is 'part of the family' and they love it. They are burying their heads in the sand that it is dangerous. When I pressed her about the dog biting -- she told me this -- and me observing it nipping and being aggressive, she told me it was the people's fault they got bitten. :-/

Gileswithachainsaw Wed 29-Jan-14 10:08:07

That dog should be put down before it takes off someones face

That's a bit harsh. God knows what happened to the poor thing. In the right home he could thrive but he's obviously nervous as a result of what's happened to him. Dread to think what they did to him. One would assume people illegally importing dogs don't really care about their welfare sad

He needs a home with someone who has the time to rehabilitate him and look after him properly and not in a situation where he's a danger due to Im proper care and not having physical and mental needs fulfilled.

Gileswithachainsaw Wed 29-Jan-14 10:09:01

Or her blush

Only1scoop Wed 29-Jan-14 10:10:07

Just wow ....read your last post that idiot shouldn't be allowed a goldfish IMO hmm

LEMmingaround Wed 29-Jan-14 10:11:06

softly you are right, however it is not unheard of for this to happen, it just doesn't tend to make the news. A labrador is a big strong dog and i have met some nasty ones due to irresponsible breeding. I have also met some lovely lovely ones too.

I used to be a rotweiller owner - and now a JRT owner, but yeah, i have to agree with your comment about the owners. Its huskies now and anything that looks remotely wolf like that you see the hoodies strutting down the high-street with, barely able to control.

kcoll Wed 29-Jan-14 10:11:33

Further to the DNA -- they do this often (you can have it done, just for fun if you have a mixed breed to see what it is) in the US. As far as I know about the paperwork, they vet in the US would have to certify that it is not a pit bull. I suppose they lied or paid off the US vet. I know when I moved my dog from the UK to the US (where there are not illegal breeds as far as I know, so it would be a non-issue), I had to supply her papers -- she was a pure breed, from a breeder.

LEMmingaround Wed 29-Jan-14 10:12:49

Why are you even friends wiht those people, i coudlnt be friends with a total idiot i'd like to think i have nothing in common wiht them!

LEMmingaround Wed 29-Jan-14 10:13:58

or maybe it isn't even a pit-bull and they are full of shit? The breed is totally irrelevant, that dog is a danger and i cant see a happy outcome for the poor thing.

Chattymummyhere Wed 29-Jan-14 10:15:18

Just report the dog it is illegal and should not be here for good reasons... These dogs need owners that know exactly what they are doing not careless owners.

As an owner of German shepherds and having young children I get it all the time about how dangerous it is, but we take precautions, children and dogs never alone, dogs and children know not to take/give food without permission..

The fact it crys when ever it is shut out just shows it runs the house I would not trust this dog to carry out basic commands.

whitepuddingsupper Wed 29-Jan-14 10:17:13

Why hasn't the dog been destroyed if it's already bitten 3 times? Your friend is an idiot to have it loose near her child.

DigestivesAndPhiladelphia Wed 29-Jan-14 10:17:26

Why are you friends with this idiot?

45redballoons Wed 29-Jan-14 10:19:44

I think breeds in the US are banned by state law, I'm sure pit-bulls are illegal in some states. The fact they owned him in the states changes my mind a little though, if I had a springer in the states and moved here I'd want to bring her, if she were an illegal breed here (well I would have thought about this when I bought it though surely) I would want to bring her here still.

BUT I'd still report it.

Yes probably bad owners, this is why I want a dog lisence, but if a child gets mauled it won't help the child out knowing it was just bad owners.

You bring your 9 month old around a dog that bites people.

I realise you "hold it away" but you do realise that you can't beat a pitbull right? SO you holding it away does precisely fuck all.

You are all being so fucking unreasonable I can't stand it.

kcoll Wed 29-Jan-14 10:24:29

Thanks everyone for your input. I do not want to get into a debate about breeds -- as I am not a vet or a dog behaviour specialist, all I know is that in the last 7 years of the 14 children killed the list of dogs has comprised of 50% rotweilers, and 50% staffs and illegal pit bulls (and one Jack Russell alongside a staff). And if you do want a counter vet opinion, I know a vet who says that rotweilers are the most dangerous dog in her opinion. So perhaps let it lie there?

What the statistics do show is that other breeds can be abused and be dangerous as well, and bite, though are not deadly dangerous.

One final point regarding the owner being the problem not the dog -- in THIS case -- the owners are nice and loving and have had it from a puppy and I have known the dog for years. Yes, they are showing a shocking amount of irresponsibility (frankly it disgusts me) in the face of the threat since this dog has shown a violet streak. So in this case I believe it is the dog and not the owners -- though they are beyond irresponsible with regards to how they control the dog. I am not just defending her because she is my friend -- I'm honestly trying to get to the bottom of whether or not breeds are the problem in my own head, and from reading statistics and my personal experience it would seem that the breed is the most important factor. How else can you explain how all of the dogs who have killed have been the types mentioned?

Melonbreath Wed 29-Jan-14 10:28:24

Dogs who bite through nerves are not safe around children.
Breeds are largely irrelevant, when I was a tot I used to sleep in the dog basket with our family rottweiler, the biggest dappiest living teddy going.

I would report this dog, it is an illegal breed and can't be trusted.

Gileswithachainsaw Wed 29-Jan-14 10:28:31

How can you say the owners are being irresponsible and in the same sentence say it's the dog not the owners?

They may feed and walk etc but if it's not properly trained, etc and imported illegally where anything could have happened to it then surely that contributes to the dogs temperament.

Only1scoop Wed 29-Jan-14 10:30:44

But Op your friend said it was 'their fault they got bitten'....by a dog she has hmm
Surely she is way to irresponsible to keep a dog.

Chattymummyhere Wed 29-Jan-14 10:35:40

You don't have to beat your dog and not give it attention to be a bad owner...

Your friends are bad owners and it is their fault not the dogs.

They have not trained this dog and thus it does not behave and it bites people... If they where good owners they would be doing everything possible to train this dog not just shut it away until they get fed up of its crying and then let it jump all over the house again..

But your mind is made up anyway... Has to be the dog could never be the nice friends..

I'm out

qazxc Wed 29-Jan-14 10:36:07

Regardless of breed, this dog is clearly dangerous. You describe him as strong, has bitten three times before, nips and shows signs of aggression and worse of all has totally irresponsible owners who are burying their head in the sand and refuse to exercise proper control other their animal.
Do not go anywhere where that dog is going to be, and warn your other friends of the dangers.

SooticaTheWitchesCat Wed 29-Jan-14 10:41:44

You need to report this dog before it harms the child. How would you feel if anything happened to that baby and you did nothing.

Phone up now and do something!

Canidae Wed 29-Jan-14 10:46:43

Friend or not, I can't see how you could consider taking your child to a house that has a dog who is known to bite, reguardless of breed. Especially as the owners don't care about the safety of people around their animal.

Pit bulls and other bully breeds are breed to fight dogs, not humans.Bad breeding and training cause a bull breed to be human aggresive. Please don't declare these dogs are designed to kill other very strong dogs and humans. They have been cross bred with bigger dogs without reguard for temperament. They are over bred and under socialised.

The United Kennel Club breed standard on the American pit bull is as follows.

CHARACTERISTICS

The essential characteristics of the American Pit Bull Terrier are strength, confidence, and zest for life. This breed is eager to please and brimming over with enthusiasm. APBTs make excellent family companions and have always been noted for their love of children. Because most APBTs exhibit some level of dog aggression and because of its powerful physique, the APBT requires an owner who will carefully socialize and obedience train the dog. The breed’s natural agility makes it one of the most capable canine climbers so good fencing is a must for this breed. The APBT is not the best choice for a guard dog since they are extremely friendly, even with strangers. Aggressive behavior toward humans is uncharacteristic of the breed and highly undesirable. This breed does very well in performance events because of its high level of intelligence and its willingness to work.

Disqualifications: Viciousness or extreme shyness.

Sorry for the slight derail.

I do think this dog should be reported. It clearly can not be handled correctly and is a danger.

lucy101 Wed 29-Jan-14 10:51:06

I grew up with a father who insisted on having bull breeds. It was terrifying and a few nips (my sister still has the scars, excuses were made for the dog in question) did end in a ferocious attack (on my father) which could have killed him. I am still furious that he had them around us. There is no way I would let my son near these people, and yes you should do something about it.

Rinoachicken Wed 29-Jan-14 11:03:21

I'm 99% sure that an illegal breed of dog, if the court decides to give it a license and not PTS, I'm sure it's then required belt law to be chipped, neutered and leased and muzzled when out in public. And if not complied with then it's seized and PTS.

So even if the authorities DID already know about it, there is no way she should be letting it out off leash and in muzzled in public places.

And I'm also pretty certain that the circumstances that mean a judge lets an illegal dog live are pretty slim and rare. Knowingly importing a dog with false papers to a country where it's banned isn't going to fall into that category!

Rinoachicken Wed 29-Jan-14 11:04:06

Leashed not leased!! (Who'd lease a pit bull??!!)

Canidae Wed 29-Jan-14 11:20:00

Yes I would have no doubt that, if reported, the dog would be put to sleep. As a dog lover, that pains me but as someone with a bit of common sense I can see that it should be done. 3 bites is a huge issue and with the owners careless attitude it could soon be 4 or more.

My cousin's boyfriend had a staffie x mastiff who was put to sleep as he was belived to be a banned pit bull type. This dog was gentle and had no sign of aggression. It was very sudden. The reports made about the dog, police taking the dog and having 'someone' look at him and decide his breed based purely on size and him being put down happened in less than 4 days. The boyfriend deeply regrets letting them take him and not standing up to them more.

bochead Wed 29-Jan-14 11:21:26

This is a horror story waiting to happen, as the owners are doo doo deep in denial about the risk this individual dog's temperament currently poses both to the public and their own child. I've seen NOTHING about the owners utilising a professional behaviorist, muzzling or taking other sensible common sense measure to address the issue in a humane way

Dog law in the UK is an ass, but in this specific case it's able to protect children - for goodness sake USE IT! Report to the police as an illegally imported breed, with a history of biting, and give the authorities the chance to protect people before something awful happens.

IF someone is maimed by this powerful, nervous animal then you'll never forgive yourself for not reporting it OP. I say this as a dog owner & Mum who has only ever had rescues.

stepmooster Wed 29-Jan-14 11:26:05

My father took in a large lurcher dog which had to be rehomed because it had killed a sheep. It used to be used in hare-coursing and was very nervous and jumpy. The rescue centre my father got him from had it rehomed previously with a lady who thinking he was just a soppy thing and decided to ignore the strict conditions of him always being muzzled and on a lead outside. She let him loose, and he killed another sheep. The police wanted to destroy him, but the rescue centre convinced them that they would ensure he was rehomed to someone who genuinely understood the threat this dog could be.

This dog is very old now, and genuinely is a soppy old thing, to us, but he was very nervous and still is. Once we had him chained up in the yard with a muzzle when an estate agent came to my dad's property he ignored our warning and thinking the dog was all cute, went to pet him. What a frigging idiot, the dog went for him, but thankfully he was on a chain and muzzled, and all the agent got was a nasty fright. Dogs that mean business don't give any warning. They just lunge, you would have absolutely no chance of preventing a dog that wants to kill from getting to it's prey.

To us, his family, he could be as nice as pie, but we all knew he could turn. My children are not allowed near him, and everyone understands, he is not socialised with other dogs and children. He is only free in my father's yard, high fences and no chance of getting loose where mostly he spends his days being tormented by the neighbours cat. Thankfully he can barely walk far and does not give chase and just growls at it.

nyldn Wed 29-Jan-14 11:35:57

yanbu. don't take your baby around there. quite frankly, with 3 confirmed bites, I'm surprised the dog hasn't been put down. can you anonymously notify someone that the dog is illegal?

softlysoftly Wed 29-Jan-14 11:36:30

LEM perhaps we should petition for a banned breed of owners instead?

MintyChops Wed 29-Jan-14 11:38:27

Yanbu to be so unhappy about this dog. I would report it and stay away from it especially with my baby. I say this as a dog lover.

TheToysAreALIVEITellThee Wed 29-Jan-14 12:25:12

No interest in the rest of the thread, just want to correct OP - A SBT is NOT a smaller version of a pit bull.

Tulip26 Wed 29-Jan-14 12:43:04

www.nytimes.com/1997/09/14/us/after-movies-unwanted-dalmatians.html Any dog can be dangerous.

With a history of biting, this pit-bull type is a liability. She needs serious training or rehoming with someone experienced. I'm saying this as a person who has a potentially dangerous looking rescue dog and I've worked very hard over the years to make him into a friendly, sociable pet. Owners being in denial or not being in full control will lead to a tragedy and the breed will get blamed instead of the master.

cjel Wed 29-Jan-14 15:41:31

Perhaps the reason that certain breeds get the reputation they do is because of the sort of owners they attract?

It is definitely the owner not the dog and these people are crap dog owners. Report.( And I've owned several bull mastiffs who were trained to be the most lovely soppy family dogs.

MikeLitoris Wed 29-Jan-14 15:54:05

Definitely report. Its completely irrelevant which breed it is. It obviously has issues.

The bit about mini pit bull jack russells and 'designed to kill humans' is frankly ridiculous.

birdybear Wed 29-Jan-14 16:03:20

So, you have lectured us all on the statistics. The only thing to ask now is...what are YOU going to do?

kcoll Thu 30-Jan-14 09:49:41

Having thought about it over night, I still think that a very powerfully jawed dog is a risk I would never choose to have around my child regardless of breed and how well trained it is (the latter, I do realise is key, so I am not judging people with larger dogs who are very well socialised -- my mother grew up with German shepherds, without incident)....but in this case of this particular dog it has not been trained or socialised properly -- hence the biting incidents and me personally having seen it snap at people on various occasions. And yes, I have been mad to bring my child around it even while being very careful.
My friends have refused to give my concerns any credence and have basically called me crazy. They said they would keep the dog away from my child or on a lead, but that it is part of the 'family.' Not good enough and I have told them as much, not to mention I feel like saying, 'My brother is a convicted pedophile do you mind if I bring him around your son? He's part of our family....' But how do you rationalise with the irrational? At any rate, they are clearly showing extremely poor judgement, and my concern now falls on their child and other unsuspecting families. I am off to find out how to report the dog. Thanks for your comments, they have been very helpful.

kcoll Thu 30-Jan-14 09:51:17

(PS--I do not have a brother, let alone one who is a pedophile -- just for illustrative purposes!)

Quoteunquote Thu 30-Jan-14 10:18:19

from timid to ferocious

often the most dangerous of all.

I think you should make sure that you never come into contact with the dog again, never go there, and if they turn up with it anywhere leave.

Report, and keep a log of the report , full name of person,reference number, time and date, as this will end with something serious, so make sure that the police and RSPCA know you are keeping details, as you believe this will end badly, and you want to be clear that they had been informed.

and tell your friend, they need to keep a hard muzzle on the dog at all times, and they need to be honest with themselves about the situation.

and have a think about if you need deluded people in your life, it tends to end badly, use your energy on positive people.

ghostofawasp Thu 30-Jan-14 10:23:59

Glad you came to that conclusion - you're definitely doing the right thing.

HoneyDragon Thu 30-Jan-14 10:25:11

How come the dog has already bitten so many people and not one of them has reported it?

sparechange Thu 30-Jan-14 10:35:56

I was with you up until the labouring the point about breeds and trying to claim that labs and collies can't be dangerous.

If you can take your head out of your arse for a moment, the facts are there is a dangerous dog that hasn't had its behaviour properly address when it showed signs of aggression.

Added to the mix is a child who lives with the dog, and a family who think it has some sort of precious status which means it gets its own way.

The breed is TOTALLY irrelevant, and having known about the aggressive track record, you are negligent for not having done something about this before.

You lecture us on how many children are killed by family pets, yet your only concern is your child when you visit? Nice.

HoneyDragon Thu 30-Jan-14 10:59:26

Dog DNA testing is very unreliable. Pitbulls are identified on facial measurements which is also massively unreliable.

Some, totally non aggressive dogs have been erroneously killed as pit bulls.

Why on earth, would they go around telling people they had an idea gal breed in the UK and that they falsified papers?

And speculation that a vet was paid off? I highly doubt that in such a litigation rich country?

I think possibly they should keep the dog and have their child removed to be raised with people who are less thick.

If the dog is as dangerous as you state and has bitten 3 people and regularly nips people's faces that by all means report the dog.

You seem to have a lot of information from your friends already. Rather than speculating on here ask them direct what else you need to know and then act accordingly.

Floggingmolly Thu 30-Jan-14 11:06:33

A pitbull that has bitten 3 times??? Report it, ffs, before the worst happens. That dog is a fucking grenade that's had it's pin pulled.

Sallyingforth Thu 30-Jan-14 11:15:40

Rubbish! What part of "dangerous dog" don't you understand?

We see these tragedies frequently, and another one is going to happen here sooner or later. Do you OP want it on your conscience?
The dog needs to be put down NOW.

Gileswithachainsaw Thu 30-Jan-14 11:51:04

They said they would keep the dog away from my child or on a lead, but that it is part of the 'family'

This actually makes you sounds very nasty.

You do have to show some understanding here. They have had this dog a while, and they love it. It's not going to be easy for them to give up a beloved pet no matter what the dogs done.

I have already said thy have been incredibly irresponsible and as a result that poor dogs future is looking very bleak. It's true, they are idiots , the kind of people who make me angry with their reckless decisions. And yeah the dog needs removing and I hope to god it can go to someone who can follow rules and train, socialise , muzzle etc.

But please, do try and realise that idiots or not they love this dog and that this won't be easy for them.

I'm a dog lover and the proud owner of a lovely staffy. I would report this dog in a heartbeat knowing full well that its almost certain to be pts. Sad for the dog, but not your fault, it's the fault of the owners who knowingly imported a banned breed of dog into the uk under false papers.
There isn't any question that the dog will at some point bite again, it's only a matter of who it bites and how badly. Don't let the person it bites be your child or theirs, the only way you can protect your child is not have it in the house (trust me there isn't much barring a brick wall that will stop a pit bull when it wants to attack) and the only way you can protect their child is to report the dog and hope that the authorities have the dog PTS. It's a time bomb ticking away.

WanderingAway Thu 13-Feb-14 10:26:54

When I read about that poor baby girl being mauled by her pet dog this week it made me think of this thread.

I hope your friend rethinks keeping her dog as a pet in her family.

bodygoingsouth Thu 13-Feb-14 10:37:07

I know very little about dogs as I am a cat lover but I wouldn't leave any animal alone with a baby dog or cat.

your friends obviously love their dog so you would be doing them a favour reporting it. it would protect them and their child or other children and take the responsibility off them.

although anyone who brags about having an illegal dog dies sound a trifle thick.

IRCL Thu 13-Feb-14 10:39:36

report your friends.

they're being so irresponsible.

that story about that poor girl being mauled by an illegal dog.

I would act now before anyone else gets hurt.

some idiots shouldn't be allowed to have a dog. angry

MaitlandGirl Thu 13-Feb-14 11:00:03

I have a pitbull cross (they're not illegal here in NSW) and he's genuinely one of the most useless, stupid pitbulls you could ever meet! He'd much rather curl up on the sofa under a blanket or drool on your feet waiting for you to share your dinner than hurt anyone but I'm always aware there could be issues.

I've only ever heard him growl twice and that was at me because I was tickling DD (13) and she was squealing and he thought she was in trouble. He has attacked the ride on lawn mower and compressor before as he was trying to save Grandad from them!! He's a touch dumb.

I love him to death, he's a beautiful boy who loves all of us but the first time he bites someone without warning will be the day I have him pts.

Your friends are not responsible dog owners, sorry to be blunt but they need to have the dog pts. Ignoring the fact he's an illegal dog he's unpredictable, unreliable and dangerous. A dog that will bite without warnings first (growling or change in body language) is a liability and should be pts before someone gets seriously hurt.

RainYourRottingMyDhaliaBulbs Thu 13-Feb-14 11:07:51

I would get straight onto police they sound utterly irresponsible anyway and disgusting attitude.

LoonvanBoon Thu 13-Feb-14 11:08:18

Well done on deciding to report the dog, kcoll. Don't know anything much about UK dog law or what will happen next; but I think it would have been wrong & irresponsible not to inform the authorities, given your friends have told you it's an illegal breed. I would think that even if the dog hadn't bitten before.

Of course YANBU not to let the dog anywhere near your child.

pixiepotter Thu 13-Feb-14 11:09:21

that dog needs putting down asap before it kills or maims someone. please report it to police and get ss involved to protect that vulnerable baby.

RainYourRottingMyDhaliaBulbs Thu 13-Feb-14 11:09:56

KColl good for you and you are making a step to keep us all safe let alone their own child.

cashewfrenzy Thu 13-Feb-14 11:16:53

The reason bull breeds are overrepresented in kill statistics is that they are OFTEN bred for profit by ignorant twunts, under-socialised, they go to dreadful inappropriate homes on the spur of the moment, receive little or no training and are owned by people who have a poor understanding of normal dog behaviour and dubious motives.

Breed is irrelevant. Upbringing, socialisation and the owner's knowledge and understanding are critical. Saying breed relates to attacks is like saying, to use a crude but hopefully eye opening analogy, that more murderers are black because black people are inherently aggressive. Of course that is a completely ridiculous statement to make and even if the statistics bore out such a claim we'd have the insight surely to know that social factors are critical here, not skin colour. Exactly the same with dogs.

If people really want their children to be safe sound dogs then we need education starting in preschool.

OP, this dog has unresolved anxiety issues which will get worse if not addressed. It is unhappy and stressed and therfore at risk of biting again. Stay away and encourage the owners to get help from an appropriate behaviour professional such as a member of the APBC. It will pay dividends.

Triliteral Thu 13-Feb-14 12:19:25

"Saying breed relates to attacks is like saying, to use a crude but hopefully eye opening analogy, that more murderers are black because black people are inherently aggressive."

I disagree with the suggestion that there is no correlation between breed and behaviour. Collie dogs have been very specifically bred over the years to be interested in herding. Not all collies will adhere to that, but many do it naturally and many other breeds do not. Japanese Akitas were bred to be fighting dogs. Genetically they have been bred in the past to be fierce. Pit-bulls the same. I am fully aware that you can get very nice Pit Bulls (I'm a vet, and I've met plenty) but to suggest that there is no correlation whatsoever is just, in my opinion, incorrect.

SinisterBuggyMonth Thu 13-Feb-14 12:28:48

This just sounds like an accident waiting to happen. Please report them to someone OP. I've known the most docile dog who sunk his teeth into his owner when he trapped his foot and she required stitches. They only need to feel threatened to turn, and that is likely in any dogs life. Poor baby.

cashewfrenzy Thu 13-Feb-14 12:31:54

I'm also a vet Tri and there is an epidemic of this problem in the UK. These bite statistics are not a breed-related problem. Focusing on breeds prevents the real issue being addressed, and that's the fundamental lack of understanding of canine behaviour and learning. It is only because dogs are such a forgiving species that we get away with so few tragedies.

SPsMrLoverManSHABBA Thu 13-Feb-14 12:34:58

I grew up with a pit bull. She was soft as shit as that's how we brought her up.

Our tiny jack Russell was scarier than her.

The dog been dangerous and already a biter is another matter. Any dog, no matter the breed should act like that so something does need doing

catsrus Thu 13-Feb-14 12:52:32

An 11-month-old baby girl was killed by a "pit bull terrier-type" dog while asleep upstairs in bed, police said Monday night www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-26131934

likeit Thu 13-Feb-14 13:02:21

What is the attraction of a dog like that? I just don't get it.

KarmaVersusGeorgeOsbourne Thu 13-Feb-14 13:23:22

People like this are just awful. They get hold of these poor dogs, for whatever reason, do not give them the proper training, and are in denial about how dangerous and antisocial the dog ultimately becomes. But they just don't give a shit, because they are not the ones to suffer- it's usually members of the public,inc small children, other people's family pets, livestock, and the dog itself, which ends up having to be PTS. All while the inept owners bleat about how much they love their pet.

Shonajoy Thu 13-Feb-14 13:53:44

Report anonymously as you think it looks like a pit bull.

Shonajoy Thu 13-Feb-14 13:55:17

The attraction is I'm hard, I've got a huge penis. I worked in puppy training classes and omg the number of Akitas was terrifying. They're one I avoid like the plague too I'm afraid.

HandbagCrazy Thu 13-Feb-14 14:15:43

I havent read the full thread but Im completely split on this. If any dog is dangerous, of course you shouldnt spend time around it, especially if you have a child.

However, in my previous job I worked with dogs and believe very strongly that how you treat and train a dog has the biggest influence on its temperament. Just because her dog is a large, strong dog, it doesnt necessarily follow that it will be nasty. My old family dog was a bull terrier. People were terrified of him but he was lovely, was too soft to defend himself even when next doors yorkie bit him. I have a jack russell now, again, has never bitten anyone because of how he's been trained.

If your friend chooses to take her dog everywhere with her, thats her choice. Your choice is whether to go. If the dog makes you nervous, stay away, but you cant tell her she cant take her dog with her.

Triliteral Thu 13-Feb-14 14:26:30

"I'm also a vet Tri and there is an epidemic of this problem in the UK. These bite statistics are not a breed-related problem. Focusing on breeds prevents the real issue being addressed, and that's the fundamental lack of understanding of canine behaviour and learning. It is only because dogs are such a forgiving species that we get away with so few tragedies."

Okay, no problem at all. I agree absolutely that demonising any specific breed isn't remotely helpful. I just felt it was technically incorrect to say that dogs were not sometimes bred for temperamental characteristics as well as physical ones.

LiberalLibertine Thu 13-Feb-14 14:41:03

Op,I haven't read the whole thread,I would just plead with you to report this dog. And don't go round there at all with your child, if that dog flipped you couldn't stop it, neither could they.

It's heart breaking the dog will probably be destroyed, but hopefully it will be before it tears a child apart.

Mim78 Thu 13-Feb-14 15:24:57

Call the police.

It is possible that the dog wouldn't be put down if as an individual it was proved to be not dangerous and a number of v strict conditions were put on it, but the circumstances in which your friend got the dog make this less likely.

RainYourRottingMyDhaliaBulbs Thu 13-Feb-14 15:30:18

YOU cant demonise a breed on the other hand, how many times does a Maltese attacking make it into the papers? Or dogs that are bred to be lap dogs?

These types of dogs make it into papers because they do lot of damage when they attack, how many times have we read " he was such a lovley dog, he has never hurt anyone before he just turned".

Are all those dogs badly treated...most dog attacks come from the family pet...that just turned....and always staffy dogs and so on...never the bichon friese...or maltese...

Aliwithtwins Thu 13-Feb-14 15:31:30

I love dogs to. Have always had dogs, and would never see dogs hurt or put down unnecessarily. I also have kids. You need to report this and you are absolutely doing the right thing not going round with your baby.

RainYourRottingMyDhaliaBulbs Thu 13-Feb-14 15:34:36

BTW I have a lap dog..I can hardly walk down a street without adults and children wanting to pet her, BUT I totally understand peoples fear, and if people come round and they are afraid, she goes in the kitchen I would never ever thrust her on anyone, she is part of the family but humans come first and babies come before that.

I trust my dog but not 100% she is a dog after all and one day a perfect storm of facotrs could contribute to an attack...

peole who dont think this should not be allowed dogs

rainbowfeet Thu 13-Feb-14 15:46:42

This thread is making me anxious for your friends dc's .. I'm sorry but I would not have my child anywhere near this type of dog especially as it has already shown aggression & I'd also report the dog to the police... Imagine how you would feel if you didn't. & heaven forbid the dog hurt someone

HoneyDragon Thu 13-Feb-14 15:57:25

A dog that bites without warning is usually a mistreated dog used to cruelty.

purplebaubles Thu 13-Feb-14 16:06:23

Honey that is such a sweeping statement. Dogs can bite for no reason whatsoever really. They're animals. It could be ill. It could be getting annoyed. It doesn't have to be mistreated. Dogs (of any breed) + babies is a bad combination.

OP you need to report this dog now. I think the safety of the baby trumps any kind of sympathy for the dog in this circumstance. It's illegal, and you're concerned (rightly) about the wellbeing of a child. Report report report.

frugalfuzzpig Thu 13-Feb-14 16:20:07

Well done for planning to report, hope they act on it

HoneyDragon Thu 13-Feb-14 16:24:44

Yes but illness is a warning, and a reason.

It's not a sweeping statement.

If you ignore a dog to the point where it's first instinct is to bite. Not snap bark or growl, but bite than give me another reason?

Its also a sweeping statement to say all dogs and babies are a bad combination.

SpoonfulOfJam Thu 13-Feb-14 16:25:10

Please report this dog. I feel sick thinking about that dog and that baby in the same room.

RedFocus Thu 13-Feb-14 16:36:50

It's already bitten 3 people you said?! Surely that's reason enough to report it or will you just wait until it's ripped the face off a baby?! I really don't know how you can just sit there and do nothing. Shame on you!

LondonNicki Thu 13-Feb-14 18:15:24

I think someone needs to be a responsible adult to protect that child. The baby can't protect itself, the parents don't feel it's a risk so that really only leaves you.

mistermakersgloopyglue Thu 13-Feb-14 18:26:22

Oh god I saw the date of the op and that people were posting on an older tread and honestly thought the little girl in the op was the girl who got killed by the dog in Blackburn (right age and everytjing) my blood ran cold sad

Please report that dog.

wontletmesignin Thu 13-Feb-14 18:30:50

My sister bought a 'staffy' with papers, and everything. As the dog got older, it was looking more and more like a pitbull. It was built lile a rock! She kept saying hes lovely, hes lovely, as hes jumping up snapping at me, playfully.

Eventually,before the dog turned 3...months before that he started challenging my sis.
Would refuse to get off the kids beds. My BIL had to actually sit on this dog for half an hour as it lost the plot.
Once calm, he was lovely again.
He then started trying to grab my sisters throat.

They had two kids. They tried, and tried and my heart was in my mouth until they finally had this dog put to sleep.
It was inches off grabbing my sisters throat and would no longer listen to BILs commands.

Definitely report this as it is too big of a risk.

It so easily could have been my niece of nephew trying to remove the dog from their own beds, only they wouldnt have had the strength to restrain it!

ferretyfeet Thu 13-Feb-14 18:38:26

Well if it mauls a child to pieces you will wish you had done something but it will be TOO LATE

pixiepotter Fri 14-Feb-14 08:38:15

The dog is illegal in this country so will (rightly) be destroyed.The beginning , the middle , the end.

ElbowPrincess Fri 14-Feb-14 08:51:28

My heart lurched when I realised the date of the OP. Please come back & tell us that it wasnt your friends DD who was killed sad

funkybuddha Fri 14-Feb-14 08:57:30

Great, so you can ensure the safety of your own child but what about mine? What if mine or someone elses child is at the hotel at the same time? Its great you have the knowledge to make the decision to keep your child away from this dog but what about everyone else.

Forago Fri 14-Feb-14 09:03:26

Surely the size of the breed and the type of jaw is relevant?

Forago Fri 14-Feb-14 09:04:09

Surely the size of the breed and the type of jaw is relevant?

OwlCapone Fri 14-Feb-14 09:12:27

funkybuddah the OP is not at fault here and did not think the dog should be at the hotel.

TheScience Fri 14-Feb-14 09:18:42

Children die from attacks by rotties, staffies/bulldogs and mastiffs. It's fine to argue that breed is irrelevant and it's all about the owners, but whether some breeds are inherently more dangerous or dangerous owners are attracted to particular breeds, it plainly is a factor.

LoonvanBoon Fri 14-Feb-14 09:22:46

I didn't notice the date of the OP when I posted on this thread yesterday. kcoll, are you still around? Did you report the dog & has action been taken?

wontletmesignin Fri 14-Feb-14 09:35:06

I dont understand why people buy breeds that have been bred specifically for fighting and expect them to be loving family pets.
It is possible for them to be, but why take that risk?
Then blame the dog and have it PTS when it was in their nature to be aggressive to begin with.

foreverondiet Fri 14-Feb-14 10:29:34

I would call police and social services. And council. It's illegal and her child is at risk. No way would I go round there either. If you don't want to fall out with her do it all illegally...

Selks Fri 14-Feb-14 10:45:49

I don't understand why the OP is posting on here and not indicating what they are going to do about it.
This is a no-brainer.
It's a SAFEGUARDING issue that your 'friend' has this dog with tiny DC in the house....it's not just about whether you go round there and how you protect your DC.
There is only one option.....you phone the police and tell them everything, and you do it now.

IRCL Fri 14-Feb-14 14:12:52

I know you can't tar all breeds but I would rather take my chances against a small terrier than a pitbull. they are incredibly strong. I really hope you reported the dog OP.

rabbitlady Fri 14-Feb-14 14:45:00

child first, always.

Puzzledandpissedoff Fri 14-Feb-14 14:51:54

These things tend to go in three stages:

He's as soft as grease, wouldn't hurt a fly
Don't worry, he's only playing
Oh he's never done that before!!

Please, please don't let this get to number three ...

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