Not to want my brother round for meals

(138 Posts)
FrauMoose Tue 28-Jan-14 11:11:07

It's a tricky one. I've recently worked out that my late father had Aspergers and that my brother - in his late 40s - also is 'on the spectrum.'

He lives alone and has a habit of ringing up and suggesting visits that are around lunchtime or the time when we eat in the evening.

Because on Sunday, two relatives on my husband's side of the family were visiting - one of them elderly and senile. So I put my brother off when he suggested a Sunday visit. He said he would come after work on Monday, but ring first to confirm.

When he rang my husband invited him to eat with us. He duly arrived at exactly the time he knows we eat. He didn't have wine/fruit juice/chocolate/biscuits with him. He didn't say thanks for the invitation. He walked in as if he owned the place, sat down and ate his food - without complimenting us on the rather good meal. He didn't offer to clear or wash up. He didn't say thanks when he left.

It's just very frustrating and draining. But also hard to instruct adults in the social cues/norms. (He also drives my older brother mad, but I haven't discussed the Aspergers/autism thing with him yet. My older brother and mother are much more into wanting to pretend everything is normal. 'X is just X and that's the way he is.' That sort of thing.

NB He has not invited us to his house - twenty miles away - for food for ten years. Nor has he ever taken us out to eat. We have probably fed him once every month or two over that period.

Any ideas?

So, he comes once a month for dinner? How exactly is that draining?

To be fair, if you really do think he has aspergers then I think YABU - does he behave in a similar way to how your dad did?

Quinteszilla Tue 28-Jan-14 11:18:27

Yabu. It is your brother. It is once a month. Or less.

ProphetOfDoom Tue 28-Jan-14 11:22:28

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

FrauMoose Tue 28-Jan-14 11:23:53

It's hard to describe how it is draining. But I think the absence of conventional good manners makes it less rewarding to be a host. Particularly if hospitality is never returned, or no gifts are given as a mark of appreciation, and no help is offered. It is also draining when guests - even if they are relatives - consistently talk about themselves in a negative gloomy way, with lots of loud yawining, but never express any interest whatsoever in what the people they've said they want to see, catch up with etc are doing.

I suppose what I'd like to do is work towards saying, 'I'm okay about providing you with dinner if you try to bring some small contribution, remember to ask us how we are, and help with the chores.#

It's also especially draining when the previous day - you're only day off at the weekend has been spent entertaining a 92 year old with almost no memory.

Vatta Tue 28-Jan-14 11:26:12

My brother has aspergers - we've learnt just to ask him to do things in a cheerful, non-confrontational way. Eg John, could you help DH with the washing up? Or yes, do come for dinner, perhaps you could pick up some red wine on the way? He doesn't automatically know these things are expected, the way most of us do, but is perfectly happy to do them, you just have to point it out.

But it's only once a month, maybe once every two months. If he does have aspergers then you have to realise that his brain isn't wired the same as yours, social situations are much more difficult for him - you need to accept him for what he is, not what you want him to be and just appreciate the fact that he wants to come and see you for dinner.

AdoraBell Tue 28-Jan-14 11:28:33

Does he behave in a similar way with other people, in any other sitúation? I know you say he drives your other DB mad.

TBF I can see How it would be draining as it's not just once or twice a month for dinner. It's way it's done and probably a whole host of little things that have irked you all the way through your DF's either condición or behaviour before you really noticed this with your DB.

YNBU if it's always your house he goes To, and if he's not on the spectrum. Does he Go To your other DB's or DM's?

TalisaMaegyr Tue 28-Jan-14 11:28:36

Is he skint? Is that why he always plans his visits at mealtimes, and also why he doesn't bring gifts?

Wrt the aspergers, you can be blunt, yet polite. He won't know why things are offending you otherwise!

Vatta Tue 28-Jan-14 11:28:45

Just read your second post - again, I think sometimes you just have to prompt him a bit - eg, do you want to hear what we've been up to?

You'll find he probably does, he just somehow doesn't think to ask the question.

And I agree with you, it can be very draining at times and it's difficult to explain to people quite why it's so difficult!

PrimalLass Tue 28-Jan-14 11:30:26

Why don't you just ask him to bring a bottle of wine?

EsioTrot Tue 28-Jan-14 11:34:54

As the parent of a child with Asperger's Syndrome this post makes me really sad.

I think several of the previous posters have given good examples as to how to encourage the "reciprocal" social interaction you would like from your brother.

If you do genuinely think he has Asperger's it may be useful to read a bit about it - it may give you some further ideas as to how to make these situations more enjoyable from your point of view.

Many people with Asperger's shy away from social interaction as it makes them feel really anxious - how lovely that he feels comfortable enough with you to want to spend time in your company.

zipzap Tue 28-Jan-14 11:35:44

What would happen if hectored to invite himself one weekend for a meal and you said 'you've been here lots recently and it would be nice to have a change - how about we come over to you instead?'

If he often rings up and invites himself then hopefully he won't be too freaked out by you inviting yourselves. Might be that he doesn't think to issue invites as he is used to just inviting himself somewhere he wants to go.

If it's said nicely and in the flow of things then hopefully it won't freak him out too much.

Sparklysilversequins Tue 28-Jan-14 11:36:08

You need to tell him as others have said. I can't actually see what the big problem is here. Stop expecting NT interactions from a person with Aspergers and you won't find it so tough surely? Prompt the behaviours you'd like and expect to do that each time he comes. I don't think providing a meal once a month for your own brother who because of Aspergers has less social skills than others might is that huge a deal myself.

Have you read up about the condition? I find refreshing my knowledge about my own dc who both have ASD helps me o maintain my patience.

AndiMac Tue 28-Jan-14 11:37:55

Assuming he's not broke, just tell him next time he says he'll come around at dinner time, "That's a great idea! Can you please pick up a nice cake/pudding/whatever from the store and bring it with you?"

Problem not solved, but a bit of the strain taken off at least. And next time ask him to help wash up!

Lottiedoubtie Tue 28-Jan-14 11:39:22


He's your BROTHER.

CoffeeTea103 Tue 28-Jan-14 11:40:49

Yabu and I think very mean. Given that he has Aspergers rather than try different approaches you would rather that he doesn't come around.
A meal once or twice a month is hardly doing him a favour, he is your brother!hmm How would you feel if your kids treated each other like this one day.
If you feel so hung up on him not bringing anything over, you could ask him or better yet just not expect anything and be happy to give him a meal.
He may be very lonely and may just want to sit down with family to have his meal.

Fox82 Tue 28-Jan-14 11:42:28

I would never expect my own brother to bring a gift if he was coming for a meal at my house hmm Only perhaps if he was coming more than once or twice a week, then I'd ask him to contribute by bringing the desert or something

Grumbliest Tue 28-Jan-14 11:42:29

Yabu, he's your brother and if you discourage are basically showing your kids that this is the norm to ignore siblings when all they want is company

ladymontdore Tue 28-Jan-14 11:42:46

Do you love him? If he talks about himself in a negative and gloomy way maybe he is lonely / sad and needs some support?

pussycatdoll Tue 28-Jan-14 11:45:23

Sounds like you don't like him very much

Lancelottie Tue 28-Jan-14 11:45:24

I think the problem here is that you have only just started thinking that he might have Asperger's (how sure are you, by the way?) rather than living with that knowledge as a child.

DD is 12 and has no qualms about ordering her older brother to take things to the table, get more than one glass, and wash up if she's cooked -- because she knows he won't think to offer, he'll just stand there looking unsure what to do.

Also, if it's always been the case that your brother turns up empty-handed, then he will think that things work just fine the way they are.

ProphetOfDoom Tue 28-Jan-14 11:45:55

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

FrauMoose Tue 28-Jan-14 11:46:51

Within the last couple of years I have also discovered that my stepson in his mid-twenties Asperger's and have read a great deal about it. His mother has known for years but basically didn't tell anybody, so he has not received the support he needs. He and my very elderly father-in-law were the two guests on Sunday, which meant we were at a low ebb on Monday.

So there are autistic relatives on both sides of my family, but most people (not my husband) are in denial and I have had to educate myself and try to decide what to do with this knowledge.

One of my favourite quotes - I am probably misquoting it slightly - is from John Elder Robison author of 'Look Me in the Eye'. It's something along the lines of 'Just because I have Aspergers it doesn't give me the right to behave like a jerk.'

As a caring sister, as well as a rather frazzled human being with needs of my own, I want my brother to be less of a jerk.

And I've resolved to give him the option of either coming round for a quick coffee or if he wants to eat with us - to bring a contribution and help clear up.

ProphetOfDoom Tue 28-Jan-14 11:48:49

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

If your OP is anything to go by, it isn't your brother who is the jerk here.

You don't sound like a massively caring sister if you are bothered because he doesn't bring a cake or something with him.

It's quite sad really!

Grumbliest Tue 28-Jan-14 11:51:48

Fingers crossed, maybe all he needs is some gentle persuasion.. People can be draining but we all need someone to be around

Lancelottie Tue 28-Jan-14 11:53:29

Mmm. Remember that your brother (if you're right) lives with Asperger's all day, every day, without any help to deal with it. He probably finds that quite frazzling too.

But yes, be clear in asking him to bring a contribution. If you can do so without any hint of 'as you should have done before, you jerk!', so much the better.

TheProsAndConsOfHitchhiking Tue 28-Jan-14 11:53:37

You don't want your brother round once a month for a bite to eat as he does not bring gifts? hmm

How bizarre!

EmmaFreudsGivingMeJip Tue 28-Jan-14 11:55:05

After your last post I feel sorry for your brother.

WilsonFrickett Tue 28-Jan-14 11:55:43

That is a terrible quote and tbh I don't think it's helping you help your brother. He's not being a jerk. He has Asperger's syndrome. His brain doesn't work the same way as yours.

Ask for what you want - it really is as simple as that.

Although I wouldn't expect my brother to bring anything if he came round for his tea once a month, but if you do, that's fine - just tell him!

Ifcatshadthumbs Tue 28-Jan-14 11:57:37

If you want him to be less of a "jerk" (which is a rather unpleasant thing to say) then you are going to have accept that you need to be more forthright with him. Stop expecting him to guess what it is you would like him to do, he's not doing it to piss you off but you need to tell him what it is you expect.

I do have some sympathy I have a brother with aspergers and he behaves in exactly the same way. My parents never ever pull him up on it which I think is sad because he is very lonely but if he were told how play by the "rules" a bit more I think it would help him a lot.

I don't drop hints with him now I just tell him out right (but nicely) it is frustrating but you have to get over your own discomfort of being a blunt about things

Yep it's no reason to be a jerk but the point I think you are missing in that is that someone can only say that of they have been taught all the rules in the first place.
Your brother is not being a jerk if you haven't told him what your expectations are. You don't seem to be getting that his brain is wired differently and he needs help by having your expectations spelled our to him. He is no more psychic than you or I and has the added pressure of not understanding the social norms in the way we do as well.

SireeDubs Tue 28-Jan-14 12:00:17

Be careful. You say 'you've worked out' that your late father had Asperger's, and now your brother... This is a complicated condition (and associated spectrum) and your doing no one any favours by hanging labels on them.

Whatever the case, it seems that your brother could do with a little coaching in what's expected. There's lots of good advice offered here.... However, I can completely understand the frustration. I have family members who behave just like this and it's just grating and actually quite upsetting (I often feel like some kind of skivvy!). BTW, none of them have any condition, they're just a bit rude and take things for granted. Address it and see what happens.

I don't mean to sound unsympathetic, but self-diagnoses are rarely helpful. Also, such a condition doesn't mean you can't explain issues of concern to individuals.

Good luck!

nannynewo Tue 28-Jan-14 12:01:31

Your poor brother sad I think life is too precious and short to dwell over 'not bringing a desert or wine.'

I wouldn't expect my brother to bring anything over if he was only coming once or twice a month.

He sounds lonely and probably turns to you because of the way your mother and older brother are treating him. Please don't be the one who turns her back on him or judges him because he probably needs support.

If you are THAT concerned about him not providing anything then you simply need to ask. People with Asperger's need prompting and you'll probably find that he really doesn't mind bringing something along or washing up.

How about encouraging him to try out a new recipe and have you over for dinner sometime? Family time is precious and I think you should make the most of it.
He may be in the habbit of coming to yours now so doesn't think to invite you over, but I bet if you asked he wouldn't say no. Try it!

AwfulMaureen Tue 28-Jan-14 12:04:53

Look it's very hard dealing with a sibling with issues. I have one myself...also a brother. I am tired of his lack of boundaries and have decided that sadly, I don't have room for him in my life any more.

In my case this is after my brother had a temper tantrum in front of my children...he's 45! I won't expose them to this. In your case, you have a brother who simply can't judge social situations. You can either accept that and continue to be his sister or don't....and cut him out.

AwfulMaureen Tue 28-Jan-14 12:06:11

I agree with Nanny. If he is ok financially, just tell him! "It would be nice and would make us happy if you could bring us some wine to share when you come to eat with us..."

Keep it clear...probably he will ALWAYS bring wine once you tell him.

bialystockandbloom Tue 28-Jan-14 12:07:01

You might start by looking at eg NAS website for some more understanding about Aspergers, and how family and friends can help.

Your paraphrased quote about having AS doesn't give someone the right to be a jerk (hmm) doesn't therefore mean that the person with AS can suddenly snap out of it. Some understanding and reasonable accommodation might be made by, you know, people who don't actually have a disability which has at its heart impairments in social interaction and communication.

There are easy and kind ways of helping him. If your immediate priority is teaching him how to behave with more social graces in your house, just be straightforward with him and ask him to help clear up.

Were there any other areas in which you think you could help him, given that you believe he has AS?

Thetallesttower Tue 28-Jan-14 12:07:12

YABU to me, sorry. You invite him over for dinner, not the other way around. You know he is like this and finds normal social interaction difficult- so why on earth invite him for dinner?

And once a month or every two months is so little I just can't see why he needs to bring round some flowers/orange juice etc- I see my brother more than that and I give him a proper dinner and often some food/tins to take home as he's on a budget.

I think you are perhaps frustrated by the lack of normal social interaction, I get that, and whoever said, just move your expectations is right- I don't get the impression he's being jerk, more just a bit inappropriate and not quite as considerate as you would like.

But- once a month or less is so little, I just can't get my head around expecting family to bring something to that type of event. He's hardly leeching off you with such infrequent visits, and there's only one of him not a whole family so cost-wise it's negligible.

He presumably doesn't reciprocate as he doesn't want to/can't do so- have you ever chatted to him about this.

It is sad though, and perhaps this is your way of expressing how sad it is to have this rather limited interaction.

checkmates Tue 28-Jan-14 12:07:28

FRAU Its up to you in your own home.

NigellasDealer Tue 28-Jan-14 12:10:41

yabu - he is your brother that comes once a month - and he probably has aspergers from what you say. he might not reciprocate as he has no idea of what to get or when to get it - you could say ''oh it would be so nice if you picked up some wine/juice/whatever on your way" - treat him like a teenager.

januarysnowdrop Tue 28-Jan-14 12:15:34

I think Vatta's right - you just need to find a friendly way to tell him how to behave in a socially appropriate way - he's not going to work it out by himself, because he can't! I've got a brother like this (and a Dad, come to think of it) - he's very trainable, once you've told him he needs to bring a bottle, he always will, but he'd never ever in a million years think of it on his own. And terribly boring and totally self-obsessed, but we just let him witter on and nobody really listens.....
I would say definitely don't stop him coming to dinner! Set yourself a challenge and see if you can help him to be less annoying.

peggyundercrackers Tue 28-Jan-14 12:15:55

i think YABU in expecting him to bring a gift because he has come for his tea... i wouldnt thank my brother for an invitation to his house not would i expect to be thanked by anyone else for an invitation. no one i knows offers to clear up either - you really want a guest to clear up after themselves? i think you need a reality check!

candycoatedwaterdrops Tue 28-Jan-14 12:19:48

YABU. You seem unwilling to help him out with prompts and apparently find 6-12 meals a year draining?!

Electryone Tue 28-Jan-14 12:22:04

You are coming across as a bit petulant because he isn't bringing a gift everytime he you realise if he does have Aspergers then he may well have no clue it is expected of him by you, so what's wrong with actually telling him! As it is I wouldn't expect my brother to do this, but your expectations seem to be different

TalisaMaegyr Tue 28-Jan-14 12:22:53

On reading your further responses, it doesn't seem like you like him very much. Why is that? And I agree with other posters, I wouldn't dream of asking someone to bring a donation to dinner if they were only coming once a month, least of all my brother. Is there more to this? Because, tbh, you're coming across as pretty unsympathetic.

pianodoodle Tue 28-Jan-14 12:34:47

I don't have much experience of aspergers but....

The behaviour you describe wouldn't bother me in the least from a brother or sister. We tend to dispense with formalities for certain people!

I think it's more about you needing to be thanked etc... but unless he is going out of his way to be rude rather than just omitting a few niceties I'd let it go.

If my sister comes over I don't expect her to bring things. I do expect her to rifle through my stuff to see if there's anything she might like to borrow - probably stuff I "borrowed" last time I was over rifling through her stuff smile

He's your brother, and I think it would be really patronising to try and "teach" him to act a certain way to fit in with your norms.

Inertia Tue 28-Jan-14 13:25:10

So are you a professional specialising in ASD, or has your brother had a formal diagnosis? If not I think you need to be very careful as far as labelling people is concerned.

If he isn't able to interact in a socially conventional way, then perhaps you could help him? Perhaps give him a time of half-an -hour before you eat and ask him to help cook, or ask him for help with the tidying up afterwards, or saying that you're having (e.g) spag bol so could he bring some garlic bread to stretch it a bit. You need to be direct with him.

FWIW I know someone who swans in for meals as if he owns the place, often criticises the food, and never offers to clear up. He doesn't have ASD, he's just a self-centred chauvinist.

Scholes34 Tue 28-Jan-14 13:34:28

Families all behave in different ways. I certainly wouldn't expect my brother to bring anything with him when he comes to eat or stay.

If, as you suspect, your brother is on the spectrum (and we're all on the spectrum to some extent), you can't be ambiguous in any statements you're making to him. Be direct, don't drop hints.

Don't give up on him. People with AS can feel incredibly lonely and isolated. I suspect after your guests on Sunday you're just feeling a little exhausted by it all.

DeWe Tue 28-Jan-14 13:49:30

I don't think the OP is complaining that she has to feed him. But more the way in which she feels painted into a corner to feed him.

Personally I would much rather he phoned up and said "could I come round for a meal?"-leaving me the chance to say "lovely, could you bring wine/pudding/whatever" rather than turning up expecting a meal.

Also, if he's trying to make friends, then I'm sure if someone had posted here "I have made a friend who always turns up at meal times and expects to be fed". then the vast majority of replies would say "he's entitled, tell him to get stuffed" in a variety of ways.
So the Op is worrying that he will find he loses friends by the way he behaves.

He sounds similar to my db, who also I suspect is on the spectrum, but would probably be most put out if suggested.

I would suggest that next time he asks to come round a response along the lines of either, "oh that's a bit late, we'll be eating then. Could you come round earlier and we can go for a walk/play monopoly/chat over coffee together" He may then say he wants to come for a meal, then you can say fine, but can you bring XYZ.
Or say "that's about dinner time, so come for dinner, could you bring XYZ".

diddl Tue 28-Jan-14 13:58:23

I'm sure OP doesn't mind feeding him-perhaps she'd like to invite him though, rather than him turning up/inviting himself!

But I agree that she needs to say something.

I mean if it's been going on for a time he's not going to change unless someone says something!

ISeeYouShiverWithAntici Tue 28-Jan-14 15:16:25

Yabu to expect intuative neurotypical behaviourfrom someone whose brain is not wired that way! My children are bothon the spectrum and i would haveto beNUTS to sit back and just expect them to do the rightsort of social dances that nt people just seem to grasp.

IF your brother is in the autistic spectrum stop expecting a sudden and unprompted display of nt reasoning and open your gob and talk to him!

Nothing about having autism makes someone an arsehole so if they are inadvertently making social mistakes it is ok to say so and ask for specific changes.

GooseyLoosey Tue 28-Jan-14 15:21:56

Me and my children eat at my mothers about once a month and it has never, ever occured to me that I need to take her a gift.

This has made me think that perhaps she has been expecting something for all of these years and is disappointed every time.

On the other hand, when she comes around to my house, I wouldn't expect anything either, so perhaps its OK.

FanjoForTheMammaries Tue 28-Jan-14 15:24:27

He isnt a "jerk" if he has a social communicwtion disorder.

Good grief.

FanjoForTheMammaries Tue 28-Jan-14 15:26:01

My daughter has more severe autism.

If she is hungry she goes into the fridge and grabs handfuls of food.

She isnt concerned with the niceties but the practicalities.

wishful75 Tue 28-Jan-14 15:26:43


He's your brother, have a heart.

FrauMoose Tue 28-Jan-14 16:51:16

Just to come back to everyone. Some families are obviously very close and do drop in on each other a lot. My own (birth) family is quite geographically scattered and we'd always ring up and arrange things because of the distances involved.

It's obviously difficult to know quite how people tick, and there are dangers in labelling people. However since finding out more about AS, I've realised that provides a good explanation for my later father's strange habits, his withdrawal and difficult communication with others. My mother found his behaviour very very trying/distressing/embarassing - which is pretty typical for someone with an AS partner

My younger brother was very much the favoured 'baby' of the family, so for years my older brother and I just attributed his behaviour to a rather odd upbringing in which he wasn't given the boundaries that the two of uswere given. We also feel that our brother has modeled himself on my father who frequently appeared, rude, graceless and inconsiderate - as if other people were just there to give him what he wanted.

Anyway both of us feel used by him. Younger brother typically stays at my brother's house - in a large city - when on work-related business, but claims from his employers the expenses for hotel accommodation. He earns a good salary so it's certainly nothing to do with being hard up

Only once after a great deal of prompting did he make any return to my older brother - by buying them a meal at the nearby pub. I used to drop round on my younger brother sometimes. The last time would be when he invited us round to tea and buns, and didn't have any milk. Or any tea. (Just coffee.) We had to prompt him about the buns.

Hard to know re us modelling behaviour etc. My own child and stepchildren are used to relatives coming over and being fed and cared for. My honest feeling is that the way you care for people who are NT (neurotypical), who communicate readily and who are responsive - is rather different from the more frustrating kind of caring you have for people who are very much shut in their own world.

candycoatedwaterdrops Tue 28-Jan-14 17:00:19

So, you did some personal research and 'worked out' your father and brother had/have autism? confused I'm surprised more people haven't picked up on your self-diagnonsense!

Thetallesttower Tue 28-Jan-14 17:02:41

FrauMoose I hear your frustration rather than think you are being nasty, I guess at some point you just have to accept your brother is the way he is, I'm guessing his life isn't too great with being single, perhaps not having heaps of friends and being generally considered a bit 'odd'. It might help to think of him as having a social disability rather than being thoughtless or using you.

I can't see a once a month visit as 'using' myself, though, and I think you are going to have to let this expectation of reciprocal fun social events go if you are to carry on a relationship with him. Having no tea in just shows he's totally unequipped for normal social relationships (probably others don't go around). It's unlikely to be malicious.

Just give what you have to give freely- time, a dinner, letting him be part of your family for that short time and then let the rest go. It is irritating though.

FanjoForTheMammaries Tue 28-Jan-14 17:04:47

My daughter is very responsive.

The shut in own world thing is a bit of a myth.

FanjoForTheMammaries Tue 28-Jan-14 17:05:51

I believe we shouldn't just care for those who are rewarding to us. I have a difficult elderly relative and I have her round for dinner every week..because she is my family.

Thetallesttower Tue 28-Jan-14 17:21:07

The OP's brother may not have AS, he may be rather a loner, a bit eccentric, a bit odd, there are lots of people in the world without official diagnoses but still in need of of a family and inclusion. I wouldn't ask him to pick up food/wine beforehand, otherwise the whole interaction is soured before you start. Give what you have to give- if that means a cheap meal and water for drinks, so be it. He isn't going to turn up with the flowers and the thanks and so on, he sounds extremely set in his own ways and somewhat rigid and there could be lots of explanations for that (undiagnosed conditions, mh issues, personality, just not being very nice).

Preferthedogtothekids Tue 28-Jan-14 18:05:44

I have a ds17 and a dd15, my ds has Aspergers.

I am really saddened by your post. If my son is living alone in his late 40s I absolutely hope and expect that his sister will have him round to eat regularly and forgive him his lack of social graces, in fact I would want her to have much more contact than that, and I've told her that already.

What is your brother is telling you is that he wants to see you! he wants to spend time with your family when you're actually doing something (eating) rather than coming round for idle chitchat, but he definitely wants your company. It's a shame you're complaining about that - at his age it's probably the most he can manage.

WilsonFrickett Tue 28-Jan-14 18:08:41

To be honest Prefer this is at least assuaging my periodic guilt about only having one DC (who happens to have ASD).

foreverondiet Tue 28-Jan-14 18:10:39

I thought you were going to say he comes every day!

I wouldn't mind as long as he wasn't actually rude / offensive to us. Unless you can't afford the food? I often invite people round who can't reciprocate and couldn't care less what they bring.

FanjoForTheMammaries Tue 28-Jan-14 18:18:12

It is very depressing that you dont make any allowances for his (alleged AS).

I guess not all NT people are very nice either.

Preferthedogtothekids Tue 28-Jan-14 18:19:08

WilsonFrickett -I see your point. My SIL (OH's Sister) has ASD (very low functioning in her late 30s) and it's always been understood between her parents and her siblings that she will taken care of in the future, maybe not full-time, but certainly we will all watch over her and take her into our homes regularly. It's just what you do when you have a relative with a disability isn't it?

Preciousbane Tue 28-Jan-14 18:21:17

You have no idea if he has AS you have just decided he has because you have read some books. I worked for many years with a lovely bloke who had AS. He used to get very stressed and apologetic but he was never rude. Mil has convinced herself FIL and her own DD have AS to excuse their poor behaviour,they are just actually very rude and if anything SIL ticks all boxes of sociopathic tendencies. I am however not a psychologist so don't say SIL is a sociopath.

He is a little rude, not excessively and you have decided he has AS because he lacks social graces. You don't really know.

He may just be tight with money, that is what it looks like to me, plus he was spoilt as a child and indulged so he may just think he doesn't have to try.

FanjoForTheMammaries Tue 28-Jan-14 18:23:13

Precious has a point. People with AS arent the stereotypical silent withdrawn dour types that you read about.

RunnerHasbeen Tue 28-Jan-14 18:29:31

You don't mention if you could just ask him to wash up instead of smarting over the lack of an offer. Do you invite him ever or is it always inviting himself? I feel quite sad for your brother TBH, he sounds like he is really trying to maintain a relationship with his siblings. He has found something that seems to work and so repeats it, without an inkling you all find it tiresome.

Either start accepting him for who he is and be grateful he wants to spend time with you or take control a bit more inviting him out to eat and divvying up the bill (do not expect him to offer, spell it out nicely at the end of the meal) or next time he is coming say: "could you pick up a bottle of wine on your way over." You don't get any sort of moral highground if you haven't had the courage to even say something.

ISeeYouShiverWithAntici Tue 28-Jan-14 18:30:42

You don't appear to understand what autism actually is. I don't know which books you have read, but I suggest that you chuck them away because all that old guff about non responsiveness is gubbins. It belongs in the bin with refrigerator mother theory and the idea that people with autism don't have feelings or aren't aware of sensory input.

I am interested to know more about this 'frustrated sort of caring'. What is that, exactly?

As an aside, nothing that you have described screams asd in any way.

If you don't like his behaviour - challenge him. Tell him what you will and will not accept. If you choose not to do that, then you can't complain if he doesn't behave in the way you would like.

Preferthedogtothekids Tue 28-Jan-14 18:32:21

My ds is neither a silent nor withdrawn type - but he still doesn't remember to employ the social niceties. He won't talk to people he doesn't know and he seems rude, but he just doesn't feel the pull towards the 'acceptable' way of behaving socially.

He has known his Learning Support Teacher at school for several years, but still won't acknowledge him in the corridor. At home he is chatty, affectionate, caring and opinionated but he's in home with his comfortable people. It's a complicated disorder which needs much tolerance. It breaks my heart to think that he will be rejected because of it, especially from people that he does have strong feelings for.

FunkyBoldRibena Tue 28-Jan-14 18:33:50

With people with Aspergers, you have to spell these things out for them. It just isn't on their radar.

It's good that he wants to visit; and to see you. Lighten up a little.

JoinYourPlayfellows Tue 28-Jan-14 18:33:58

in fact I would want her to have much more contact than that, and I've told her that already.


OP, your brother is extremely rude.

He may have aspergers, or he may just be a dick who thinks his siblings homes are there for his use.

Given that there is no diagnosis and you seem to have invented this condition to excuse your brother treating you as a skivvy, I'm not sure why you are getting such a hard time.

Just because your parents decided to have another child doesn't mean that you are under any obligation to keep hosting a rude man who treats you badly on a monthly basis.

He never hosts you, so unless being a woman means you are automatically supposed to feed anyone who invites themselves to your home, you're off the hook.

Either start making excuses, or tell him that he is a horrible guest and needs to have better manners if he's going to come for dinner.

JoinYourPlayfellows Tue 28-Jan-14 18:35:29

Oh, and you should probably let him know that he could lose his job for defrauding his company like that.

Mintyy Tue 28-Jan-14 18:35:59

Yanbu, op. I would find this wearing too after ten years. His behaviour is thoughtless and selfish and I'm sure you wouldn't tolerate it from anyone else, so you are already cutting him a lot of slack because he is your brother. But I'm not sure there is anything at all you can do other than speak to him about it. How's his sense of humour? Could you make a joke about it?

Laquitar Tue 28-Jan-14 18:41:14

You seem to me a bit fixated on rules tbh.

He is your brother. Maybe he is just laid back unlikely you.
This is not a formal dinner party or come dine with me. Its casual, your brother comes to see you once a month and you all eat together. What is all this with chocolates, biscuits, compliment the host etc. ?

And i like how you did a lot of reading but the bit that you liked is that quote.

Mintyy Tue 28-Jan-14 18:45:30

If someone cooks for me (even dh) I always thank them and help to clear up. Isn't that the norm? Why on earth should her brother not wash up or not express his appreciation?

<genuinely confused>

cricketballs Tue 28-Jan-14 18:49:33

My sister (who doesn't have any disabilities) often calls in at feeding time - she is my sister and as such she is welcome in my home, in my life no matter what....

My youngest DS is on the spectrum, AHAD and learningdifficulties..... My eldest DDS is fully aware that he will naturally have to have a major involvement in his adult life.....they are brothers, family

JoinYourPlayfellows Tue 28-Jan-14 18:50:55

If someone cooks for me (even dh) I always thank them and help to clear up. Isn't that the norm? Why on earth should her brother not wash up or not express his appreciation?

I know, I'm confused about this too.

It seems to be the OP's womanly duty to cook a monthly meal for a rude and unappreciative man who invites himself over just because he is her brother.

But as a man, he has no responsibility to feed her or put up with her rudeness on a regular basis.

JoinYourPlayfellows Tue 28-Jan-14 18:52:56

she is my sister and as such she is welcome in my home, in my life no matter what...

No matter how she treats you?

My sister is welcome in my home and in my life because I love her and she is nice. If she was a horrible bitch who treated me like shit, she would no longer be welcome.

I didn't decide to have her. The only people who owe her unconditional love are my parents.

Minifingers Tue 28-Jan-14 18:57:08

My brother doesn't have Aspergers (my Ds does). He's nevertheless invited me to his home for a meal, though he's been to mine to dinner a fair amount.

I don't care. I love him. I'm happy to have him here.

You sound like a misery guts.

MrsDavidBowie Tue 28-Jan-14 18:58:27

How true, Joinyourplayfellows

Dh has a couple of siblings who have very poor social skills, and who are uncomfortable to be around. They have never been to our house.

Laquitar Tue 28-Jan-14 19:05:31

Who talked about 'womanly duties'? Ffs
Nobody here mentioned men and women.

Some of us talk about families, different personalities, the possibility of op's brother to have AS or to be going through tough time. That's all.

JoinYourPlayfellows Tue 28-Jan-14 19:12:12

No, nobody mentioned men and women.

But we do live in a world where women are expected to be accommodating and welcoming and solicitous of men's needs and where there is no similar expectation of men.

As we see here where a women whose brother is incredibly rude on several counts and bad company to boot, is told that she must continue to host him on his terms even though he never reciprocates.

Why must she?

Laquitar Tue 28-Jan-14 19:15:44

But those who find op unreadonable they would probably say the same if the brother was a sister. Or if the op was a man. At least i would.

JoinYourPlayfellows Tue 28-Jan-14 19:26:49

Of course they's SAY that they'd say that.

Because everyone THINKS they are completely unbiased and non-sexist.

And yet somehow we live in a world where women earn far less of the money and do far more of the domestic work that fairness would allow.

The reality is that the expectation of the red carpet being rolled out endlessly for a rude man is something that is far, far more likely to asked of a woman than a man.

And asked of FOR a man than for a woman.

Ffs life is too short. My brother can come round here whenever he likes and I will feed him. I couldn't give a shit about wine and chocolates. He is my family and I love him. Isn't it nice just to spend time with family (despite their flaws?

Thetallesttower Tue 28-Jan-14 19:44:47

The OP's husband asked him over for dinner not her- I am the first to spot gender inbalance, but given that he did invite back (not to the OP's liking as he had coffee and not tea and reminding about the buns) I really think describing a once every month or two visit of a sibling is hardly the stuff of womanly duty.

MarianneM Tue 28-Jan-14 19:46:21

OP - you are horrible.

He doesn't sound like a jerk - you do.

I judt think this is a very mean-spirited post.

JoinYourPlayfellows Tue 28-Jan-14 19:56:03

Ffs life is too short.

Yes, too short to spend it making dinner for somebody who is habitually rude and no fun to be around.

The OP's husband asked him over for dinner not her- I am the first to spot gender inbalance

Well if you were you would have spotted that a man issued an invitation to another man and the woman was expected to cook the food.

Where does OP say her brother is rude?

I really don't think this is about bloody sexism JYPF!

JoinYourPlayfellows Tue 28-Jan-14 20:00:07

Um, here:

He didn't say thanks for the invitation. He walked in as if he owned the place, sat down and ate his food - without complimenting us on the rather good meal. He didn't offer to clear or wash up. He didn't say thanks when he left.

Thetallesttower Tue 28-Jan-14 20:01:59

Join I don't see in the OP where the poster says she cooked the dinner. She says 'us' as in her and her husband. If my husband invites, he cooks. She is not obliged to do anything fancy, she could be like the rest of us who have somewhat odd siblings and just let them have a nice dinner round with our family now and again.

cricketballs Tue 28-Jan-14 20:03:21

"she is my sister and as such she is welcome in my home, in my life no matter what...

No matter how she treats you?

My sister is welcome in my home and in my life because I love her and she is nice. If she was a horrible bitch who treated me like shit, she would no longer be welcome.

I didn't decide to have her. The only people who owe her unconditional love are my parents."

You didn't decide to have her but you have got is the most important thing and if it means hosting them to a meal once a month without shock horror receiving a gift then so be it

TheProsAndConsOfHitchhiking Tue 28-Jan-14 20:05:17

Why are people say he came over uninvited?

The op states When he rang my husband invited him to eat with us


SpecialAgentFreyPie Tue 28-Jan-14 20:05:23

OP I'm sorry you're getting a hard time.

My DB has ASD, diagnosed as an adult. I love him but I don't like him. I put up with him for DP's sake. It's been a lot easier since his DP has been on the scene.

OP is human too, and when you've had a childhood of dealing with a sibling who has an undiagnosed SN and just seems so slef absorbed. My DB has done some of the loveliest, kindest big gestures for me but he's horrible at day to day stuff.

I'm human. I can't just erase a lifetime of hurt feelings because he had a label slapped on him. Like my DP expect me too

JoinYourPlayfellows Tue 28-Jan-14 20:08:41

This is why people are saying he comes over uninvited:

has a habit of ringing up and suggesting visits that are around lunchtime or the time when we eat in the evening.

So he invites himself over, comes empty handed, doesn't say thanks, doesn't help out, and spends the whole time complaining and talking about himself.

But apparently the OP should be delighted to see him, despite the fact that spending time with him is unpleasant and he creates work and expense for her that he takes as his due.

TheProsAndConsOfHitchhiking Tue 28-Jan-14 20:11:55

JoinYourPlayfellows _ has a habit of ringing up and suggesting visits that are around lunchtime or the time when we eat in the evening.

That still does not say he comes over uninvited.

Yes but OP believes her bro is on the spectrum which could account for lack of social graces. And that's all it is. Not rudeness per se.

Thetallesttower Tue 28-Jan-14 20:17:12

I don't think she should be delighted at all, it's not a delightful situation, but it is a common one, our siblings are not always who we choose them to be. The OP asked for ideas- there have been plenty on this thread, such as ask him directly for a contribution, ask him to help with washing up, help him with the social niceties and norms, or just accept he is the way he is.

Of course it's not delightful to have siblings with issues.

JoinYourPlayfellows Tue 28-Jan-14 20:17:44

Ringing up and inviting yourself over for meals IS coming over uninvited.

If you have to invite yourself, you are not really invited.

whois Tue 28-Jan-14 20:19:34

I've my sister and like going to her house for dinner. I 'invite myself' round in that sometimes I ask if she has any time when we can meet up. She has three children so it's easier for her if we meet at her house for dinner. More often than not her DH cooks. They are both very hospitable people.

Sometimes I take wine, or flowers, or chocolate. But not always. Because sometimes it really is just 'popping in' for whatever they are having for dinner or I go to see her kids and I get invited for dinner once there.

I always say thanks, I always compliment the food (not hard, both are excellent cooks) and I hope we have a balanced conversation and they like seeing me too. I help a little to clear up and stack the dishwasher.

I don't think family should always take wine or something, but they should be people you like to see! If the OP had been ground down over years of rubbish company I can see why she thinks she isn't getting anything out of this arrangement! You don't have to like your family.

JoinYourPlayfellows Tue 28-Jan-14 20:19:55

Of course it's not delightful to have siblings with issues.

Of course.

And nor is it delightful to have a thread full of people tell you you are a horrible person because you struggle to deal with a sibling who has issues.

All this glib crap from people who like their siblings about how wonderful they are for being nice to them is pretty sickening.

SpecialAgentFreyPie Tue 28-Jan-14 20:23:35

To the parents who have drilled it into your DC that it's expected they take care of their sibling on the spectrum when you're gone, have you also done your best to drill some semblance of social graces into your SN child? I imagine that would have made an enormous difference to how I perceived my brother if he'd been diagnosed before adulthood. It's made me hyper aware of how to deal with my own DS1's SN (not on the spectrum, but can cause difficult social behaviours)
No doubt I'll still make mistakes, but I hope my other DC don't grow up feeling about me the way I do about my own DP. sad

SpecialAgentFreyPie Tue 28-Jan-14 20:24:54

All this glib crap from people who like their siblings about how wonderful they are for being nice to them is pretty sickening

Yep. The smugness just oozes.

TheProsAndConsOfHitchhiking Tue 28-Jan-14 20:25:23

ringing up and suggesting .. suggesting.. suggesting

JoinYourPlayfellows do you have a dictionary at hand?

As far as I am aware Suggesting is not the same word as unannounced/uninvited.

You obviously have a bee in your bonnet about something other than this thread.

Any normal decent human being would not mind their sibling coming round once a month for something to eat hmm

woodrunner Tue 28-Jan-14 20:28:56

AS is a red herring here. OP is feeling resentful and unappreciated by a family member. Yes, we have a duty to our family to welcome them in. And in turn, they too have a duty to us, to make us feel welcomed and loved. If it's one sided, for whatever reason, tensions are bound to arise. It's OK for the OP to feel them.

Tell him. Nicely but directly. Just ask him to bring a bottle of red or pick up a pudding on the way. Or ask when he's going to invite you all over to his.

Mintyy Tue 28-Jan-14 20:33:00

"Any normal decent human being would not mind their sibling coming round once a month for something to eat hmm"

What a dumb statement that is ^

bialystockandbloom Tue 28-Jan-14 20:33:33

If the OP had been "my brother is a selfish git who doesn't show any manners when he comes to my house" the replies would've been mostly "YANBU he sounds rude" etc.

But she stated clearly at the beginning that she believes has diagnosed him herself with he has autism. Claims she "has read a great deal about it". And then goes on to say he's a selfish git etc etc.

Can people not see the dreadful irony here?

laquitar I noted that about the quote too hmm

bialystockandbloom Tue 28-Jan-14 20:35:03

To the parents who have drilled it into your DC that it's expected they take care of their sibling on the spectrum when you're gone, have you also done your best to drill some semblance of social graces into your SN child?

Words fail me at how unbelievably fucking insensitive and offensive that is.

TheProsAndConsOfHitchhiking Tue 28-Jan-14 20:35:39

Can You explain why that is Mintyy?

If he was turning up unannounced or uninvited I would understand BUT he has been invited fgs.

Mintyy Tue 28-Jan-14 20:38:49

No, you are not reading op's posts properly.

Why should any normal decent human being welcome their sibling into their home and feed them if they never get any thanks, any contribution to the clearing up or a reciprocal invitation in ten years?

I am a normal decent human but I absolutely not would be happy to have this sort of relationship with any of my siblings!

As I said, a dumb statement.

Your poor brother I think life is too precious and short to dwell over 'not bringing a desert or wine

^^ This.

OP. You have self diagnosed your brother as having AS (which is a title which no longer exists btw) yet you seem unwilling to accept the things in his behaviour he cant change.

JoinYourPlayfellows Tue 28-Jan-14 20:40:06

As far as I am aware Suggesting is not the same word as unannounced/uninvited.

It's weird that you think this is about the dictionary definition of a word.

Alongside my dictionary, I also have a book of etiquette. It is quite clear on the fact that an invitation can only be issued by the hosts and that a "suggestion" made by yourself to visit somebody else's house does not constitute an invitation.

So he is regularly coming over uninvited.

Any normal decent human being would not mind their sibling coming round once a month for something to eat

So, you are calling the OP, who came on here looking for help, not normal and not decent.

How very normal and decent of you.

bialystockandbloom Tue 28-Jan-14 20:40:19

mintyy you would not be prepared to accommodate a sibling in what is, frankly, hardly a majorly inconvenient way, even if you believed them to have autism??

SpecialAgentFreyPie Tue 28-Jan-14 20:43:09

Well obviously I'm being insensitive and offensive to my own DS1, I want him to have the best chance in life as I assume all parents do. I also don't want my other DC to resent me because their DB will need them when he'd older. It's a fine line.

I have a brother with ASD and a SN DC. I can see both sides of the coin here.

Mintyy Tue 28-Jan-14 20:44:09


brettgirl2 Tue 28-Jan-14 20:44:45

My uncle has some similar traits. He does bring stuff though (humungous quantities of wine even though he doesn't drink) and he waits to be invited. I'm not sure what I'd do if he invited us round as I dread to think what his cooking is like, I'd never hankered after return invite grin

OP your brother sounds rude and he needs telling. Who does he listen to?

He must have some redeeming features? Just because someone has aspergers (possibly) doesn't make them nice otherwise though I guess.... my uncle is lovely.

SpecialAgentFreyPie Tue 28-Jan-14 20:46:32

If you've grown up with an undiagnosed SN in a sibling, you can't just erase a lifetime's worth of shit memories because a label has been slapped on. That's exactly what my DPs want to happen. I think my DB shouldn't use it as a justification for his bad behaviour which he does and instead do something about it. He's high functioning, he can, he doesn't want too.

The lifetime of dealing with it no doubt contributes to how the OP now feels about these meals. If it were just the meals with zero backstory, I doubt there'd be the resentment.

SpecialAgentFreyPie Tue 28-Jan-14 20:48:04

Oh, and my Db does have lots of lovely qualities. He's a good person. I love him very much.

I just don't like him. And I'm human, and I can't force myself to like him.

brettgirl2 Tue 28-Jan-14 20:52:05

And people would be fine with ou not liking him if he didn't possibly have AS. If you had posted without mentioning that then people would have said shock yanbu.... Funny world isn't it?

I hope I have raised my own children to be more tolerant of their autistic sibling.

SpecialAgentFreyPie Tue 28-Jan-14 20:54:26

That's what I want for my DC Gossamer
I don't want to repeat my parents mistakes, as I know deep down it's not actually my brother's fault. sad

JoinYourPlayfellows Tue 28-Jan-14 20:56:21

I hope I have raised my own children to be more tolerant of their autistic sibling.

Is that a little piece of smuggery meant to make her feel worse about herself, or an acknowledgement that the OP COULDN'T have been raised to be more tolerant of a brother who may (or may not) have autism?

That her brother, if he even has an autistic spectrum disorder, has never been treated, has never learnt how to manage his behaviour and that nobody, including the OP, has any idea how to deal with him in a productive way.

TheProsAndConsOfHitchhiking Tue 28-Jan-14 20:59:38

ok fair enough, I make dumb statements and know nowt.

I just think it such a shame that ops brother probably doesn't know he is doing anything wrong, No one has told him he is doing anything wrong and most of all I don't think he is doing anything wrong.

I feed anyone who walks through my door, invited/uninvited, Family or friend.

Thats just how I roll grin

I do not have any AS siblings (I am the eldest of 9) I have no AS offspring but I completely agree that if I did I would be making sure they would be looked after when I was gone.

SpecialAgentFreyPie Tue 28-Jan-14 21:06:19

OP, my parents have a similar attitude as your older DB and DM. They're thrilled DB got a label in his mid twenties, as 'now we know, everyone is okay!'

Uhm. No. Still 25 years of memories for me, and I swear he's gotten worse as he now uses it as a justification to be rude. My parents get very antsy if I so much as sigh in his general direction.

However he is your brother and I'm sure you love him even if he isn't too likable. There's lots of good advice earlier in the thread, go with that and see if things get easier. Just ignore the lecturing posters.

Good luck.

bialystockandbloom Tue 28-Jan-14 21:12:01

"a label slapped on"?? You mean a diagnosis of a disability, presumably?

Fair enough, you don't like your brother. No law against that. But it sounds like you have more of an issue with your parents. As a parent of a child with sn yourself, you must be able to imagine their position, especially as a diagnosis came so late in life for him.

It was the comment about parents of children with autism not "drilling social graces" into their children that has really upset me, tbh. Look at the SN board here, all it is is filled with parents spending every moment of every day of their lives doing nothing but trying to improve the life of their children for their own sake and that of those around them. I have spent tens of thousands of pounds (no exaggeration) over the last 3 years on therapy to do precisely that for my ds, who has high functioning autism. I spend every moment I am with him teaching him the rules of society, how to communicate, to interact to the best of his abilities. Do you really think parents of children with autism don't do this?

I also get where you're coming from about siblings - mixed in with the relentless teaching etc is the guilt and stress of how to ensure that my dd does not suffer because of her brother's autism, while trying to accommodate it at the same time.

This whole thread has upset me more than any other in 6 years on MN actually. The OP said in her opening sentence that she believes her brother to have autism. Yet people are still piling in to say what a rude wanker he is.

lurkerspeaks Tue 28-Jan-14 21:12:41

Have you actually spoken to your brother?

I have a friend who behaves like this. Once we explained rounds to him the frustration of him never buying a drink went away.

Once I explained hospitality rules eg. help clear up and bring a gift that frustration has gone.

My friend genuinely doesn't get it without being told but he doesn't WANT to be different so when he is told he remembers faithfully. Almost to the point of being irritating. Sometimes I think I'm just never happy.

SpecialAgentFreyPie Tue 28-Jan-14 21:21:49


I'm sorry, I'm speaking emotively and hypocritically. I'd be heartbroken if any of my DC spoke about their DB this way, and you're right. My issue is with my parents. I use the term 'slapping a label on' bitterly, because that's exactly how my DPs view it. He's been labeled, good now he can be comfortably put in a box like a 'normal' person, let's never speak about it again.
I don't know if I'll ever be able to forgive them for burying their head in the sand my whole life, and deep down I know my issue is with them. But 25 years of hurt from a sibling doesn't just go away, even if technically it wasn't his fault. It is complicated (obviously!)

I worded myself badly. I do a lot of lurking on the SN boards. I projected, I found it very difficult to read posts lecturing the OP and saying how their very young children already know they're expected to take care of their sibling. It got my hackles up. Again, hypocritical because I don't want any of my DC to resent their DB!!

I like to think at least I know what not to do with my DC from my own childhood...

bialystockandbloom Tue 28-Jan-14 21:31:43

That's fine specialagent I probably overreacted to that specific phrase, and it wasn't really fair of me to pick you out like that. I can see your situation being hard. Feeling a bit sensitive today (maybe cos I'm on a 5:2 fast day so reeeeally hungry!).

<handshake/group hug/ wine ?>

BratinghamPalace Tue 28-Jan-14 21:39:29

Sounds like you need to teach him like ATTA said. Coming for dinner? Great we need some wine. Would you prefer to wash or dry the dishes? Etc

SingingGerbil Tue 28-Jan-14 22:01:04

Jeez, I thought you were going to say it was daily. So you feed him 12-24 times a year shock. Maybe he's a bit lonely and wants some company.

SingingGerbil Tue 28-Jan-14 22:02:01

Read the post wrong, possibly 6-12 times a year, so even less!!

SpecialAgentFreyPie Tue 28-Jan-14 22:54:19

Ahh, always Bialy flowerscakewine

No need, I think we're all sensitive when it comes to our DC, especially when SN are involved!


UniS Wed 29-Jan-14 08:29:11

db, yes you can come for dinner on Sunday you need to bring a xx for pudding.

HaroldLloyd Wed 29-Jan-14 10:26:12

I would not expect contributions gifts and the like from a family member who only came once every month.

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