To have not put make up on dd?

(293 Posts)
selfdestructivelady Mon 13-Jan-14 10:11:02

We went to a children's birthday party Saturday. All the little girls had make up on and all the parents were saying how pretty each other's dds make up looked. Dd is 4 yo the others were aged 4-5 they had nail polish eyeshadow and lip gloss on.

Biped Mon 13-Jan-14 10:12:40

No. Ugh.

CoffeeTea103 Mon 13-Jan-14 10:14:16

Up to you.

SomethingkindaOod Mon 13-Jan-14 10:15:08

Well although there's nothing really wrong as such with a bit of sparkly nail polish at the weekend I think YANBU. DD1 hates make up of any kind (she's 8 years old) luckily and I don't really like seeing it on young children myself.
However it's personal choice and parents see it as an extension of dressing up which isn't U either.
(yep, picking splinters out of my bum on this one grin)

Boreoff456 Mon 13-Jan-14 10:15:40

Its up to you. What they do is up to them.

BackforGood Mon 13-Jan-14 10:19:03

hmm
If you disagree on things like this, it may be wise to widen your dd's circle of friends, as, if this is an issue at 4 yrs old, what are they going to be doing at 13 ?

YWNBU but neither were they. It wouldn;t occur to me to put make-up on my 5 yo, but my 14 yo daughter does it occasionally, I don't have a problem with it. I might be reading your OP wrong, but it sounds more as if you want everyone to go shock "awful parents at the party" whereas actually imo it's not a big deal either way.

puddock Mon 13-Jan-14 10:21:55

Did the girls arrive at the party already made-up, or was the nail polish etc part of an activity at the party?

My 5 year old DS loves a bit of sparkly nail polish. </unhelpful>

pictish Mon 13-Jan-14 10:22:41

It depends. What is this thread for? Are you genuinely asking, or is it a veiled dig at those who did let their dds have make up?

In short - it's each to their own.

selfdestructivelady Mon 13-Jan-14 10:22:46

Widening her circle of friends will not be easy as she has autism and finds it hard to make friends I'm not judging but as I don't wear make up I wondered if I should have put some on her for a party.

pictish Mon 13-Jan-14 10:25:44

There's no set social rule on it, no.
When we attend a party (my dd is almost 5), some girls sometimes have a little make up on, but most don't.
As far as I'm aware, no one cares either way.

SomethingkindaOod Mon 13-Jan-14 10:27:44

You don't need to put anything on like that for a party if you don't want to. Are you worried she will be left out or pointed out as different because she isn't wearing it?
DD1 hates the feeling of it on her fingers, even when it's dry. She hates the smell as well. The last 'pamper party' she went to the nail polish she had on (because her friends were having it) didn't even last until it dried.

GlitzAndGiggles Mon 13-Jan-14 10:32:18

It was a party I doubt the mum's put it on them daily

selfdestructivelady Mon 13-Jan-14 10:32:36

Yes I am worried she will stand out more than she already does.

ChippingInWadesIn Mon 13-Jan-14 10:37:08

That age seems to be the 'peak' for wanting to wear eye shadow, lip gloss and nail polish. If the child wants to do it, I don't worry & let them do it - it not the highway to hell - none of them are wearing a face full of slap by 6 grin Very pale pink polish, a bare whisk of an eyeshadow brush (ahem, often a clean one - they can't tell - grin) and a bit of clear/pale pink lipgloss - the world isn't going to stop turning, honest smile and yes, parents telling them all the look pretty/lovely whatever.

HOWEVER if this is parents putting makeup on them, 'making them up' for the party then I'd be changing my/my DD's circle of friends - that's just hidious.

ChippingInWadesIn Mon 13-Jan-14 10:39:34

Selfdestruct - did they make you feel bad for not putting makeup on your DD?

ChippingInWadesIn Mon 13-Jan-14 10:40:01

Did your DD notice or care?

TalkativeJim Mon 13-Jan-14 10:40:12

My DD is this age.

She has been to quite a few parties. I've NEVER noticed makeup on any of the girls. Party dresses, depending on location - yes.

Are you sure that you don't have any options for finding new friends? This certainly isn't a universal thing!!

Biped Mon 13-Jan-14 10:42:33

Yes - exactly what you said, Chipping. I'd interpreted OP's description as describing your "however" scenario. smile

selfdestructivelady Mon 13-Jan-14 10:43:55

No other options tbh I'm just relieved she was accepted enough to be invited to a party dd didn't notice but I felt she was a bit left out with all the parents saying how pretty each child was but not saying it about dd as she had no make up on. I was the one who felt bad not dd.

Katnisscupcake Mon 13-Jan-14 10:44:09

My DD is 4 and very occasionally (because I work from home so don't wear make up through the working week) will ask me if she can have a little bit of lipgloss on when I'm putting some on to go out at the weekend. She has a tiny bit on and I really don't see the problem.

She wouldn't wear blusher or eyeshadow or anything like that, but then I don't either!

selfdestructivelady Mon 13-Jan-14 10:45:40

Older DS with possible autism and ADHD has not been accepted so I'm overly concerned about her being accepted.

fidgetsnowfly Mon 13-Jan-14 10:46:16

eek, no! Horrible, imo, and I'd definitely lookm at widening her circle of friends!! I've seen a couple that age with lip gloss on (I wouldn't do it) but it's not the norm as far as I've seen.

SomethingkindaOod Mon 13-Jan-14 10:46:23

Meaning this very kindly but I think you're projecting your own feelings onto her in all honesty, really don't worry about it! She's only little yet, there will be loads of girls who don't go to parties wearing nail polish alongside those who do.
If you do want her to try it out get a cheap bottle of glittery stuff that won't stand out too much and let her try, maybe on her toes first. See if she likes it.

selfdestructivelady Mon 13-Jan-14 10:50:46

yes I probably am projecting. I'll put some nail polish on her and see how she copes at the next party.

pictish Mon 13-Jan-14 10:55:22

This can be a contentious issue on MN.

My dd loves to have a little make up on. I do allow it, but rarely.
She sees me putting mine on in the mornings and I think she just considers it something that mummy does, and wants to role play at being a grown up lady like me.
She loves a bit of sparkly nail varnish too.
I see no harm in it, and quite a few of my friends (just ordinary mums like me - not fashion divas) are the same. We all view it as harmless dress up fun.

Dd has her own set of children's nail varnishes (peel off stuff) and eyeshadows (very faint and wipes off with water), and she loves having a smudge on for a party...just the same as she enjoys getting her party dress on.

However, on MN I fear being dragged through the ringer as a dumb-ass who encourages the early sexualisation of my daughter. Some folks on here would react as though I've got her in thigh boots and a thong, mounting a pole.

Seeline Mon 13-Jan-14 10:57:47

Personally I am amazed that everyone considers this to be the norm. My DD is approaching 10. Most will wear nail varnish for a party, but only in the last couple pf years. One or two wore makeup for the last school disco (a tiny bit of eye shadow and clear lip gloss), but none wear makeup for 'ordinary ' parties yet. These were 4-5 yo!!

WilsonFrickett Mon 13-Jan-14 11:02:16

I tell you what, while I do have strong feelings about little girls wearing make up I realise that it isn't up to me, each to their own, etc etc etc. And usually manage to avoid threads about it/keep my ranting to myself/not have an actual coronary on the internet.

But a bunch of women painting the faces of 4 yo's then telling all the face-painted 4 yos how pretty they were while completely excluding the only child who was not made up from this has made my blood properly boil.

MrsOakenshield Mon 13-Jan-14 11:05:28

yeuch to the wearing make up and yeuch to the comments of the mothers. DD (4) is allowed nail varnish (lilacy) on her toes in the summer but has been told (and has accepted) that fingernail varnish, and red nail varnish, are for grown ups, regardless of what her friends' parents allow them to do.

formerbabe Mon 13-Jan-14 11:42:21

My son is 5 and I have never seen the girls at the parties he attends wear make up...that is really weird!

ChippingInWadesIn Mon 13-Jan-14 11:44:06

pictish grin

selfdestruct - I'm sorry you seem to be stuck with some hard of thinking parents sad I wouldn't put nail polish on her if you don't think she will like it, just to get approving comments by the other stupid parents. If they were commenting on all the children they should have said something to DD - it's not difficult is it. Idiots.

I know you want her to fit it though, did the other children notice/care/say anything?

selfdestructivelady Mon 13-Jan-14 12:09:45

No the children didn't notice.

MeepMeepVrooooom Mon 13-Jan-14 12:11:47

I 100% would not have make up on my DD at that age. YANBU it's up to you what you do.

DigestivesAndPhiladelphia Mon 13-Jan-14 12:26:11

Seeline - I am glad that you are also shocked! I was just staring at my phone in amazement. I find it hard to believe that 5 year olds wearing "a little make up" to a party is seen as anywhere near normal.

Surely it is just completely bizarre? confused

If the kids were happy and it was a party, who cares? Sounds like it's fun for them because it's a novelty.

I sometimes use my Naked 2 palette to transform my daughter into a cat. She loves it.

MrsOakenshield Mon 13-Jan-14 12:35:27

there is a difference between using make up to do animal faces, and using make up in the adult sense, to 'improve' or alter the way you look - the latter is not something I want to teach my 4-year-old!

Back2Basics Mon 13-Jan-14 12:50:19

Really you allow lilac varnish but not red hmm LOL

My dd (8) is a tomboy mostly, she does like makeup but only to paint her face as a clown [facepalms], she does like nail varnish, more putting it on others then having it on herself. She painted my toes red last night grin

I wouldn't really notice other little girls nails and if I did wouldn't even give it a second thought. Little girls and boys like dressing up, make up is just another form of that.

Mothers OTOH tarting up their dc in grownup makeup IE liquid eyeliner and faketans is quite sad IMO. I feel its more then dressing up its their mothers issues and I feel would cause issues for the dds later in life.

KellyElly Mon 13-Jan-14 12:52:57

there is a difference between using make up to do animal faces, and using make up in the adult sense, to 'improve' or alter the way you look - the latter is not something I want to teach my 4-year-old! But that's not really why four year olds want to wear make up it? They want sparkly, glittery 'play' make up. They don't ask for foundation, mascara, blusher etc. So although they are having it applied on the areas adults would (lip gloss, sparkly eye shadow and nail varnish) it has nothing to do with trying to look sexy/less knackered/younger or any other reason an adult may wear it. It's just play and little girls have wanted to do this since the dawn of time. It's not exactly a new concept.

mostlyharmless Mon 13-Jan-14 13:06:59

The thing I notice about this kind of thing, is that plenty of posters state proudly that their ds likes having his nails painted, and I think yes, I would probably allow my (non-existant) ds to paint his nails, and feel like I was pushing against gender roles.

But, given that my (non-existant) ds would want his nails painted because they were colourful and sparkly, not because he has any interest in fighting the feminist cause, it seems unfair to forbid my (actual) dd from having painted nails. IYSWIM.

But then, it's only happened once, and dd doesn't really see me wearing make-up or nail varnish. I'd have problems if she wanted a full face of make-up.

I think it IS the same thing. They want to be transformed, they want to admire their new faces in the mirror, then they forget and run off and do something else. It's all a game to them at that age.

pictish Mon 13-Jan-14 13:14:58

I think it's the same thing too.
My dd also likes dressing up as a fairy, a vet, a dog, a cat and other personas as well as emulating me.
There's nothing bizarre about it whatsoever.

MrsOakenshield Mon 13-Jan-14 14:37:25

well, I shall have to disagree smile. And yes, I don't like red nail varnish on little children, or fingernail varnish in general. Which is fine, as I'm her mother.

KellyElly Mon 13-Jan-14 15:29:13

And yes, I don't like red nail varnish on little children Me neither. DD has the peel off stuff that usually is all but gone by the end of the day and is so pale you can just see a bit of sparkle. Red nail varnish does look very strange on little girls.

Weelady77 Mon 13-Jan-14 15:49:01

I think a little bit is fine for party's, there's a little girls at my dd dancing and she wears a full face of make up I kid you not eye liner the lot and she's 7!!

MadeOfStarDust Mon 13-Jan-14 16:00:07

mine were allowed make up - whenever they wanted from about 5 - but they had to put it on themselves - nail varnish was done by me -I value my carpets too much.... it was all just fun for parties, or messing about with their friends etc

now they are 11 and 13 and whilst their friends are going through the full slap stage, they are subtle and stick to eyeshadow, lipgloss and nails... weekends only - school is very strict.

mrsjay Mon 13-Jan-14 16:02:19

you dont have to put any make up on your daughter at all, some girls like a bit of lip gloss and sparkle i am assuming that is what it was dont worry about it you donthonestly need to anything for your daughter to be like the other girls

MrsOakenshield Mon 13-Jan-14 16:07:48

I don't see how those 2 things relate - we didn't play with make up as little 'uns, but we equally didn't wear 'eyeshadow, lipgloss and nails' at the weekend or any other time when we were 11 and 13 - school and my mum were strict. I was quite gothy so started wearing lots of black eye makeup when I was around 16/17, but never did the full slap thing.

There seems to be a view on MN that if a parent is strict about something (TV, treats, make up, whatever) that the end result has to be an older child who then gorges on that thing.

shoofly Mon 13-Jan-14 16:11:23

I'm quite shocked by this tbh. I have 2 boys but have never noticed makeup on 4-5 year olds. I have more friends with girls than boys and this year was the first time I've noticed it. DS1 was 8 just after Christmas and his friend who turned 8 on the same day came to our house for his party after her own girlie pamper party. The girls had minimal makeup and looked lovely (as they usually do) but I thought how grownup they looked compared to DS and the other boys. Quite glad now I have boys and this one will pass me by. Although DS2 loves a squirt of perfume when he sees me putting it on grin

Back2Basics Mon 13-Jan-14 16:15:10

Well I always had makeup to play with, first the peel off varnish and en the bright blue eyeshadow and red/pink lips. God looking back I must of looked a state but my dm just let me get on with it if me and my cousins were playing.

I remember being in the first year of secondary school before the christmas disco and my mum did my eyeshadow and mascara like hers.

What I am trying to say is play makeup and then teenage makeup are to different things to most.

pictish Mon 13-Jan-14 16:34:55

I did too. I had a little Tinkerbell make up set, and I loved it. I was about 4/5 when I had it.

So far I have escaped turning into a simpering, looks obsessed, frilly headed idiot. grin

MrsOakenshield Mon 13-Jan-14 16:46:17

I'm not saying that that's the end result at all - just that it's not something I like on young children. You don't see the harm in them doing it (probably because you did it as a child yourself), I don't see the harm in them not doing it (probably because I didn't). It's just something that, for reasons logical or illogical, I really do not like to see on small children and as such I won't be encouraging DD to do it until she's much older. She likes teetering about my bedroom in my high heels (or clip clops, as she calls them) but her little sparkly dress-up shoes are flats, again because I don't like seeing little girls in heels.

I think perhaps I'm just jolly old-fashioned (and old).

IceBeing Mon 13-Jan-14 16:49:43

This fails the sexism test for me...

Q. Would it be thought of as acceptable for boys to do?
A. no.

If it isn't good enough for boys then it isn't good enough for my DD.

pictish Mon 13-Jan-14 16:50:28

I do draw the line at high heels. wink

AllDirections Mon 13-Jan-14 16:50:40

YANBU if you're talking about real make-up, so blusher, foundation, eye-shadow, etc.

YABU if you're talking about nail varnish and a little bit of lip gloss. As long as the child asked for it and parents are not telling their DC that they need it on so they look pretty, then I can't see the problem with it. It's more about wanting to be like mum than wanting to change their appearance IMO.

pictish Mon 13-Jan-14 16:52:04

Ice - the sexism test? I'm afraid you'll have to elaborate on that one for me.

mrsjay Mon 13-Jan-14 16:57:45

the sexisim test is can boys and girls both do whatever

mrsjay Mon 13-Jan-14 16:59:37

I did too. I had a little Tinkerbell make up set, and I loved it. I was about 4/5 when I had it.

OOO I WONDER IF AVON STILL DO TINERBELL MAKE UP

mrsjay Mon 13-Jan-14 16:59:58

Tinkerbell obviously

MrsOakenshield Mon 13-Jan-14 17:02:14

Ice - what??

Weelady77 Mon 13-Jan-14 17:02:36

Mrsjay I remember those little sets toosmile

mrsjay Mon 13-Jan-14 17:04:02

I loved them and it used to smell of sweeties if i remember right

Pawprint Mon 13-Jan-14 17:04:08

I think that is way too young. If it's for fun and dressing up, that's one thing. If they are wearing make up to go to a party, then that is wrong IMO.

Weelady77 Mon 13-Jan-14 17:05:34

Yip your right

pictish Mon 13-Jan-14 17:05:46

Well...I do offer to paint ds2's nails as well (he's 6), but he doesn't want it.
Why should that mean dd misses out on something she enjoys? I don't quite understand the premise of it.

Is it thought of as conventionally acceptable for a boy to wear a dress? No.
Does Ice's daughter wear dresses? I assume so.

My daughter likes dressing up as a fairy, but my son doesn't. Am I supposed to ban the fairy outfit?

I don't get it.

pictish Mon 13-Jan-14 17:09:51

You do remember right. It was a little red vanity case as I recall. And a little perfume as well.
Fond memories. smile

mrsjay Mon 13-Jan-14 17:15:02

yes thats right had a little case to go along with it the perfume had the little stick to dab on I am sure i had powder with a puff as well smile meh it did me no harm,

pictish Mon 13-Jan-14 17:19:33

Yy to the dab on perfume and the powder puff! I am grinning away at this mutual recall. smile
Did me no harm either. Not whatsoever. It doesn't stop me from climbing trees, getting muddy, playing with Lego or tearing about on my bike with my wee pals of both genders either.
No idea what all the fuss is about.

pictish Mon 13-Jan-14 17:20:07

didn't stop me - not doesn't - ha ha!

mrsjay Mon 13-Jan-14 17:23:04

bet you are looking to restock your tinkerbell perfume as i type Pictish

i smell great as i played with my cousins evil kenevil and planet on the ape and used to launch them down the stairs

Bootycall Mon 13-Jan-14 17:26:21

never come across parents putting makeup on their dds aged 4 really. it's definatly not a widespread phenomena I don't think.

lots of 4 year olds like nail varnish a eye shadow and apply it themselves. it's like fancy dress and fine for a party. and lots if girls like 'makeover type princess parties'

but it's your call.

KellyElly Mon 13-Jan-14 17:26:44

If they are wearing make up to go to a party, then that is wrong IMO But for little kids a party is play and dress up, so what's the difference from doing it at home? School/nursery no, but I would have thought a party was the exact place they would want to put a bit of sparkle on.

Bootycall Mon 13-Jan-14 17:29:22

ice will you keep to these rules as they get older?

so if your son doesn't like something then your dd doesn't get to like it either?

pictish Mon 13-Jan-14 17:34:01

Kelly - of course it is. It's a bit of flippant fun, and neither I or any of my mum pals take it remotely seriously. Nothing wrong with getting sparkled up for a party at all...if they enjoy it, what's the problem? It harms no one.

mrsjay Tue 14-Jan-14 09:43:45

you are right pictish and i never understand why people are so offended at little girls liking traditional little girl things

IceBeing Tue 14-Jan-14 10:01:26

pictish no my DD does not wear dresses.

DD got a long lecture from a slightly older girl at the swimming pool this week about how she was wearing the wrong colour (blue/green) if she was really a girl and how important it was to be able to tell if the sea creatures on her costume were male or female which she couldn't do as they were in realistic colours not pink/blue. She went on further to explain that it helps to know which things are for girls and boys...like cars don't come in pink because they aren't for girls....the older girl was just 4 btw and DD is 2.5 yo.

It isn't good enough that boys could wear pink and could wear make up. In general they don't because boys would never lower themselves to engage in girls activities.

So I reiterate if it isn't considered good enough for boys (by the overwhelming majority of boys/ parents of boys) then it isn't good enough for DD.

IceBeing Tue 14-Jan-14 10:02:37

mrsjay I know you don't get it....if you worked in a male environment where you get paid less for doing the same job and have a lower promotion chances when at the same level as your male colleagues simple because you are female then you might.

RenterNomad Tue 14-Jan-14 10:04:39

I thought that the issue was not so much the makeup, but the other parents' complacent reinforcement of a norm (ignoring the child who didn't conform), and the fear that they might do it in other ways. At 4/5, parents have a lot of control over their children's social lives.

IceBeing Tue 14-Jan-14 10:05:39

booty DD picks her own stuff. If and when she gets swallowed by the pink monster I will be frustrated but nothing more. She wont like make up and dresses atm because she likes to copy her mum. I don't wear make up and I don't wear dresses day to day.

Because if I did I would get far less respect at work than I do now. Because the work I do is NOT FOR GIRLS. So dressing like one makes you even less likely to be doing good work than if you don't act/dress like a girl but still suffer the old IQ lowering uterus.

pictish Tue 14-Jan-14 10:07:33

No mrsjay neither me. I started a thread about it once and it got slated.

I always thought equality was about offering choices and letting them make their own minds up, not sneering at the parents of girls who want to be girly and crowing about what a right on parent you are, because your daughter likes dinosaurs.

Well my dd likes dinosaurs too, and Transformers and Lego...but she also likes wearing dresses and having her nails painted. Fine by me.

HavantGuard Tue 14-Jan-14 10:08:11

You really need to change your social circle. I have never seen children that age with make up on at a party.

mrsjay Tue 14-Jan-14 10:08:38

icebeing you dont know me to be fair my dd works in a male orientated world granted as a part of her degree she gets paid exactly the same as the men and a little girl wearing a bit of sparkly nail polish does not make her any less of a girl than one who doesn't fwiw my dd would have rather had shite in her hands and clap than wear nail polish does that make her a credible female , where as her sister loves all that so who is the better girl does it matter that girls like to wear dresses and do their hair why does it matter ?

FudgefaceMcZ Tue 14-Jan-14 10:09:15

I've never seen 5yos in make up other than on wanky US child paegent television programmes but then I don't count nail varnish as make up so perhaps I'm looking at things differently. I'd be surprised if anyone even noticed whether one child was not wearing it.

Also how tf do you apply eye shadow to a preschooler/infant schooler without stabbing them in the eye? I have enough trouble putting it on myself and I don't suddenly start jumping around because I really, really need to find a plastic kangaroo right now.

IceBeing Tue 14-Jan-14 10:09:18

The issue is certainly re-enforcing social norms. Girls always like X, Boys are always energetic, girls need to worry about their looks. Boys don't.

The only thing I care about teaching my DD in this area is that her value is not in her appearance....not to me and not to anyone whose opinion is at all valid or interesting. Boys don't get this message of looks being all important until they hit puberty and even then it isn't anywhere near as powerfully directed at them as at teenage girls. Girls get it immediately from birth upwards.

IceBeing Tue 14-Jan-14 10:12:06

It does matter that we artificially segregate the world into male and female above and beyond the actual biological differences. Because while your DD might get paid the same as a male colleague the majority of women still dont.

Gender stereotypes are very damaging in a great many walks of life. Re-enforcing them sucks.

IceBeing Tue 14-Jan-14 10:12:53

also mrsjay I do know a fair bit about you...we are have crossed paths on many a thread.

FudgefaceMcZ Tue 14-Jan-14 10:13:06

Icebeing, most boys I know have worn nail varnish. I don't know where you're picking up such macho male acquaintances.

IceBeing Tue 14-Jan-14 10:14:25

Most boys would not be picked on at a party for NOT wearing nail varnish though...

HavantGuard Tue 14-Jan-14 10:14:31

Feminism is about choice, not all choices are feminist.

www.telegraph.co.uk/women/10385501/Bosses-admit-they-would-discriminate-against-women-not-wearing-makeup.html
thesocietypages.org/socimages/2011/01/08/adultification-and-sexualization-of-girls-in-french-vogue/

You have to be wilfully ignorant to believe it's not an issue and that's ignoring the idiocy of putting unnecessary chemicals onto young skin.

IceBeing Tue 14-Jan-14 10:17:49

I would like my DD to be her own person and not feel limited by stereotypes. The whole world is screaming CONFORM at her constantly through pretty much every interaction she has with it. I feel the need to yell the opposite message as loud as I can just so she has a chance of finding her own way.

Of course I wont hate her when she turns pink, or disparage her for wanting to wear make up. But I want her to have the chance to identify her favourite colour before she decides to wear pink anyway just for a quiet life....is just that sniff of independence really too much to ask?

IceBeing Tue 14-Jan-14 10:18:31

Or what Havant just said <wishes I had come up with that!>

mrsjay Tue 14-Jan-14 10:19:36

ime the best way to raise girls is to let them choose and grow and develop their own personalities and let the choose the toys the want too the clothes they want to wear the subjects they want to do at school (with guidance of course) that is how young women develop

, there is many a woman i have read on here their mothers were feminist and ridiculed them for wanting to wear make up or whatever and these women were miserable
, I was raised in the 70s and 80s where girls had to be girls and boys had to be boys I know what it is like to not want to wear frilly clothes and like boy things but i also liked the tinker bell perfume etc etc, I was not seen as a normal girl by my parents because i used to watch X men on a saturday morning , I just let my girls develop how they wanted to be,

pictish Tue 14-Jan-14 10:21:15

I am going to remain completely unapologetic about what my dd enjoys.
Choice is offered, nothing is off limits regarding gender, and my children's choices about what they like or dislike, are entirely theirs to make.
No one can tell me I'm doing wrong. Well...you can say it, but I'll gaily ignore, because I'm happy in the knowledge that I have let them decide for themselves.
And it's nobody's business but our own.

Weelady77 Tue 14-Jan-14 10:27:30

I think your wrong there ice, boys now care so much about there appearance and hair cuts from a young age, my dd is 8 I still pick her clothes she hates getting her hair done but she plays with makeup she watches YouTube to see how to put makeup on like her monster high dolls,
Whereas my son is now 15 but when he was her age and even younger he picked his own clothes knew how he wanted his hair styled asked me to buy him gel and deodorant from a young age, I remember him and his friends where in p5/6 and they bought fake tan applied it and went and played football!!! They looked bloody stupid and it made me laugh but he's never done it again (thank god) and he is very much a boy and still beauty/style mad!

mrsjay Tue 14-Jan-14 10:30:38

YY about boys pass a group of teen boys and you are overcome with lynx fumes

Weelady77 Tue 14-Jan-14 10:37:02

Or you can see a cloud of aftershave fumes!

mrsjay Tue 14-Jan-14 10:38:10

Or you can see a cloud of aftershave fumes!

Aye , dd walks to school with a boy and some days he wont walk incase the rain upsets his hair,

Weelady77 Tue 14-Jan-14 10:41:08

Does your dd walk with my ds wink

mrsjay Tue 14-Jan-14 10:41:48

oh she might hmm

Weelady77 Tue 14-Jan-14 10:44:44

This is the boy who will wear ugg boots on a Saturday but pull his football boots on on a Sunday, his dad hates the uggs but I say whatever he's comfy in I don't care

DeWe Tue 14-Jan-14 10:45:25

I had a tinkerbell set. I loved it, but dm hated it.

I haven't worn any make up in 15 years now. The last time I bought makeup I got such a face from the lady serving as my 8yo told her it was for her. However when I said it was for performing she changed her whole manner.

All my dc (yes, including ds) wear make up for performing. Foundation (except ds as he's younger) blusher, lipstick, eye shadow (not ds) and eye liner.
However they don't wear it other times. In fact dd1 (who's 13) dismissed those in her year who were putting makeup on for going out as "silly".

When aged 4/5 my girls wouldn't have lowered themselves to wear blue or engage in boy activites like football or cars etc. They definitely thought pink and girlie things were superior.
Now they are older, they will happily wear all colours.

pictish Tue 14-Jan-14 10:45:39

* and that's ignoring the idiocy of putting unnecessary chemicals onto young skin*

Please...do tell me what dreadful fate will befall dd by letting her have a scraping of kiddy eyeshadow on. I'm listening....as I'm keen to know more about my idiocy.

Daykin Tue 14-Jan-14 10:54:04

I don't own and dresses or skirts and only wear make-up on special occasions like weddings. dd1 went through a phase for about 5 years where she wouldn't wear trousers, not even in the snow. She's older now and still very fashion conscious, she can sew and customises her clothes and yes, she wears make-up. She has never been my mini-me, I spend half my life being bemused by her, but she is her, and it would be very wrong of me (imo) to tell her that she shouldn't take pleasure in fashion/beauty just because some boys don't. Boys are not the gold standard.

pictish Tue 14-Jan-14 10:59:37

Quite Daykin.

I can't help but read Ice's posts as being a little misguided, if well intentioned. She says it's because boys won't lower themselves to do girly things...but in doing so she is making out like boys set the bar.
Do they fuck.

LittleBearPad Tue 14-Jan-14 11:00:16

YANBU. Five year olds shouldn't wear makeup.

LittleBearPad Tue 14-Jan-14 11:01:29

Society says that men set the bar, not Ice. Women are still treated as second best in many ways.

Weelady77 Tue 14-Jan-14 11:02:37

Ice do you let your dd play with dolls and prams? I had a friend who wouldn't let her twin girls play with dolls prams hoovers etc!!
My 2 boys both had little buggies and ds2 had a Hoover and kitchen!

Weelady77 Tue 14-Jan-14 11:04:06

I can't think of the top of my head where woman are treated 2nd best!

LittleBearPad Tue 14-Jan-14 11:07:18

How about where women are paid less than men, still the case in this country.
And considerably worse around the world - girl babies are less wanted in many societies, FGM etc

HavantGuard Tue 14-Jan-14 11:07:38

It seems ludicrous to spend time (I'm assuming you do) trying to make sure they avoid unnecessary additives in food and that their clothes are washed in non bio only and use stuff for sensitive skin in their baths only to put stuff on them that is completely unnecessary. Our bodies absorb the chemicals in toiletries. Do you think 'Kiddy eyeshadow' is any different? Why would you expose a child's skin to that?

pictish Tue 14-Jan-14 11:07:40

There is no doubt in my mind that we still live in a patriarchal society.
Stopping my daughter from enjoying dressing up isn't the answer though is it?

pictish Tue 14-Jan-14 11:10:09

But what will happen? - that is what I am asking you.
What terrible thing is it you think will occur from my dd's very occasional play make up?
What will be the result?

So far there has been no adverse effect from it. Educate me!

mrsjay Tue 14-Jan-14 11:10:20

no it is not we can only equip our girls with the tools to be independent women with their own minds a bit of nail polish is not going to make her any less of a girl/woman

EugenesAxe Tue 14-Jan-14 11:11:54

I wouldn't mind nail varnish if the girl had a real urge for some (it's usually chipped and crap looking anyway) but I wouldn't allow face makeup at that age.

My DD will go one of two ways. I hardly ever wear face makeup day to day; just when I need to look smart/respectable, and then that will often only be mascara, blusher and lipstick. So she will either think I look shit and washed out and wear loads, or she will accept that it's OK to look natural. Personally I hate heavy makeup. I think I get more appreciation from men when natural or very lightly made up, than I would if I was Barbie-faced the whole day.

LittleBearPad Tue 14-Jan-14 11:12:15

Yes but it might teach her that without the makeup she isn't good enough. That pretty girls wear makeup.

Daykin Tue 14-Jan-14 11:14:59

It is a patriarchal society but I'm not sending out my kid to lead the revolution. She likes fashion - so what? And I'm not even going to add any qualifiers about her climbing trees either. I love her stiletto sharp shine and telling her that society will be more equal if she gives up everything that makes her her is not the answer. My sons don't get half the stick for liking stereotypically masculine pursuits that my daughter gets for enjoying stereotypically feminine ones. It's just another way of bashing women. You can be anything you want - just so long as its something a man would want too.

pictish Tue 14-Jan-14 11:15:47

I wear make up every day - mascara and shadow - very light, and I don't think that. Why would she?

mrsjay Tue 14-Jan-14 11:16:26

well yes there is that but i am safe in knowing that my own girls feel fine with or without make up I hardly ever wear it can't tell you the last time I did my youngest wears it sometimes she really isnt that concerned if she is pretty or not, there is such a thing as balance

Bowlersarm Tue 14-Jan-14 11:18:09

I think YWBU if she wanted to wear make up and you wouldn't let her. That's limiting her choice.

But if she has no interest in it, that is fine (and easier) for you.

HavantGuard Tue 14-Jan-14 11:19:25

What would happen if you left her asleep in the house alone for an hour? You'd probably get away with it and she'd be fine but it's not a risk I'd want to take.

pictish Tue 14-Jan-14 11:20:27

In fact, it is fair to say that I am not expecially pretty, but yet I still think I'm worth the effort of making the best of myself for my own satisfaction.
Try and tell me that's wrong...go on.

pictish Tue 14-Jan-14 11:22:39

havant - you still haven't told me what might happen as result of the eyeshadow.
Can you please just answer a straight question? You have very firmly expressed views about this, but you still haven't explained why.

LittleBearPad Tue 14-Jan-14 11:24:08

So in order to make the best of yourself you change your skin colour (foundation), lengthen your eye lashes, paint your eyelids, paint your lips a nicer colour, etc

I wear make-up and have loads but it's not wholly harmless to people's self esteem

mrsjay Tue 14-Jan-14 11:24:44

well if you leave a 5 yr old in the house for an hour they might leave get run over they might stay in and spill juice everywhere if they tried to sort a drink the house might burn down you put some lip gloss on them and....

LittleBearPad Tue 14-Jan-14 11:24:45

Eye infection wink

HavantGuard Tue 14-Jan-14 11:25:17

Have a quick google of the chemicals in it.

pictish Tue 14-Jan-14 11:27:39

Yes Bear that's right. I also have a decent haircut and wear clothes and shoes I consider to be nice.
What's your point?

HavantGuard Tue 14-Jan-14 11:29:25

The risk of allergic reactions aree a side issue for me.

My views are that the kind of person who puts makeup on their child isn't one I want to discuss anything with. They're a lost cause. The expression 'kiddy eyeshadow' tells me everything I ever need to know about you.

LittleBearPad Tue 14-Jan-14 11:30:09

Of that list your husband will wear nice clothes/shoes and get his haircut. He won't change his skin colour, or his eye lash length or his lip colour to fit in with society.

pictish Tue 14-Jan-14 11:30:55

But Havant I have told you there has been no adverse effect...do you not believe me?

mrsjay Tue 14-Jan-14 11:30:59

think that is you told pictish an insult so early in the day

pictish Tue 14-Jan-14 11:31:15

bear and?

HavantGuard Tue 14-Jan-14 11:31:53

The longer you are exposed to potential allergens, the higher the risk of developing an allergy to them.

Bowlersarm Tue 14-Jan-14 11:32:52

Havant you sound a joyful, accepting, rounded, person, indeed.

Quite honestly, I don't think you would be a person I would want to know either (although I don't have a dd to put eyeshadow on, whether I wanted to or not).

Weelady77 Tue 14-Jan-14 11:33:19

My son tried fake tan! And he Ioves getting a tan abroad!

pictish Tue 14-Jan-14 11:33:28

Havant - you're the one making it something it isn't. Not me. I see it as dress up - I'm not quite sure what you're reading into it.

And there's no need to become defensive and insulting towards me, because I've put you on the spot and asked you to explain yourself.Don't be so childish. If you can't provide an answert then just say "I don't know".

LittleBearPad Tue 14-Jan-14 11:33:45

So in order to look your best you need make-up. Your husband doesn't. Can't you see that this is fundamentally sexist and inequitable.

mrsjay Tue 14-Jan-14 11:35:19

but i blow dry my hair if i am going out i also dye it so i look presentable what is wrong with doing things to your face hair body to make yourself happy

LittleBearPad Tue 14-Jan-14 11:36:14

Because they're five. They shouldn't be prattling about with make-up at that age.

LittleBearPad Tue 14-Jan-14 11:36:44

And many if them are only doing it because they are copying mummy

Daykin Tue 14-Jan-14 11:36:56

My husband is much vainer than me. Do I get a prize?

mrsjay Tue 14-Jan-14 11:37:16

there is bugger all wrong with looking feminine nothing, being equal has nothing to do with make in a womens day to day life there is bigger issues than make up

pictish Tue 14-Jan-14 11:37:41

What's the problem with copying mummy?
My dd likes copying the vet too - what's the difference?

Weelady77 Tue 14-Jan-14 11:37:51

At 5 boys want to dress up as the hulk huge big muscles at 5 girls want to dress up as princesses with make up!

SooticaTheWitchesCat Tue 14-Jan-14 11:38:26

There is no way I would ever put make up on a 4 or 5 year old, to me it is just wrong. I won't even allow my 9 year old to wear make up.

They do occassionally play with a bit on nail varnish but only at home.

My husband would freak out too if he saw the girls with make up.

I also think it is wrong to be teaching 4 or 5 year olds that they look prettier with make up on. Young children look beautiful as they are and the longer they think that the better.

Daykin Tue 14-Jan-14 11:40:02

I wish dd would copy me, her room would be much tidier and the washing machine wouldn't be going like the clappers. She isn't into my androgynous genderqueer look though, she has her own thing going on and she gets it from her father

mrsjay Tue 14-Jan-14 11:40:37

bet the op is terrified to come back to their thread now it has opened the flood gates grin

HavantGuard Tue 14-Jan-14 11:40:54

I'm not being insulting, just honest. Someone who puts make up on a child and can't see what's wrong with that isn't worth wasting time on. Google the chemicals if you care. Hopefully it'll never be an issue for your DD.

LittleBearPad Tue 14-Jan-14 11:41:18

Princesses with make up on. Waiting for a prince to rescue them? It's so limiting.

mrsjay Tue 14-Jan-14 11:42:40

but little girls at 4 who like princess clothes does not mean at 16 they are waiting on their prince to come these clothes do not need to influence our girls we at that age are their main influence

Weelady77 Tue 14-Jan-14 11:42:42

Or the hulk with big muscles!

LittleBearPad Tue 14-Jan-14 11:42:49

There are bigger issues than make-up but it's all linked to the perception of women in society.

pictish Tue 14-Jan-14 11:43:28

Princesses with make up on. Waiting for a prince to rescue them? It's so limiting.
Speak for yourself. You certainly don't speak for me!

LittleBearPad Tue 14-Jan-14 11:44:07

Yes parents are their main influence hence I think parents putting makeup on small girls is wrong.

LittleBearPad Tue 14-Jan-14 11:44:39

Fine Pictish do as you wish and I will too.

Weelady77 Tue 14-Jan-14 11:45:08

Would you not put a bow in your dd hair either??

cuddlefish Tue 14-Jan-14 11:45:32

Putting make-up on little girls (4!) and telling them they look pretty is clearly conditioning them to see prettiness as a goal while the boys run around without this pressure.

bisjo Tue 14-Jan-14 11:46:02

It seems odd to me that parents think their 4 yr olds need make up to go to a party. At that age I was just happy if I got ds to a party without being covered in mud.

Daykin Tue 14-Jan-14 11:47:11

I have a more socially acceptable dd too. She likes lego and the ubiquitous climbing trees (mummy's girl).

I'm just putting that in so you don't all judge me on my limiting princess kid

Weelady77 Tue 14-Jan-14 11:47:15

Would you not tell your dd or ds they look pretty or handsome after a haircut?

Weelady77 Tue 14-Jan-14 11:49:10

Bis I don't think it's parents putting it on them through choice it's the child asking for it

LittleBearPad Tue 14-Jan-14 11:52:33

Yes I would Wee but I tell my dd she's gorgeous most days.

It's ok to say no to children about things. She won't get her ears pierced until she's well into her teens either even if she asks. Apologies for the further ear piercing grenade

pictish Tue 14-Jan-14 12:01:19

I don't think my dd needs make up for a party - stop putting words in my mouth please.
If she wants it for fun, I have no issue with a faint smudge of shadow or a slick of peelable varnish.
No need about it. Just fun.

Weelady77 Tue 14-Jan-14 12:03:28

Exactly pic it's all about fun if parents started letting their small kids wear it to school then there would be an issue!

LittleBearPad Tue 14-Jan-14 12:14:35

Why would it be different wearing it to school?

Bowlersarm Tue 14-Jan-14 12:16:27

Because they would be wearing it permanently for school, and not just for the odd party.

LittleBearPad Tue 14-Jan-14 12:43:06

So the odd party's ok but not the odd school day?

If it's ok for a five year old to wear makeup it doesn't matter surely where she wears it.

Sparklymommy Tue 14-Jan-14 12:46:08

At the risk of being flamed, my girls wear stage make-up for dance festivals and have done since they were three.

And on the other end of the spectrum my boys (aged 6 and 7) love nothing more than dressing up as princesses. In fact, my very macho 6 year old spent a good few hours dressed as Cinderella at the weekend and then let his 11 year old sister make him up with her make up bag.

It is make believe. Children having fun. They do not wear nail polish very often due to having to take it off for performances, but often have a smudge of make up on. And dd1 has better make up than me! To the point that when I go out I'm borrowing it. Having said tht she doesn't wear it everyday.

bisjo Tue 14-Jan-14 12:48:58

Wee ds asks for lots of things he doesn't get grin

I remember trying to sneak at the house aged 13 wearing eyeshadow. I was made to take it off. I find it sad that there seems to be such a rush for children to grow up these days.

mrsjay Tue 14-Jan-14 12:54:34

Yes parents are their main influence hence I think parents putting makeup on small girls is wrong.

which is your opinion and choice and that is ok but oher parents think different I only allowed it for playing dd didnt put lip gloss on till she was 6 and even then it was few and far between these little girls are not I dont think going out with full faces and stillettos on they are little girls,

Imo the people who criticise women and girls the most is women and girls other females have a huge inpact on self esteem ime not men

mrsjay Tue 14-Jan-14 12:56:33

So the odd party's ok but not the odd school day?

because girls like to dress up and sometimes put make up on for fun we do expect them to be serious at school

LittleBearPad Tue 14-Jan-14 12:59:29

Six is still so tiny though. As you say my opinion is that it's still too young.

I agree women are most likely to impact other women's self esteem - hence the mothers babbling on about how pretty the girls with make-up were isn't going to do much for the confidence of any girl not wearing it.

So does that mean the OP should conform and chuck some glitter on her daughter. It's sad if that is how life is.

And YY to Bisjo saying there seems such a rush for children to grow up these days.

mrsjay Tue 14-Jan-14 13:04:43

So does that mean the OP should conform and chuck some glitter on her daughter. It's sad if that is how life is.

NO of course not originally I answered with you do not need to put any make up on your daughter, FWIW my youngest dd is quite immature for her age and girls take the piss of her every day for not wearing fake tan or having her trousers on to school instead of a short skirt it is heartbreaking mothers are damned if they do damned if they don't a bit of lip gloss did not make my dd grow up to quick it is all about the parents attitude imo

bisjo Tue 14-Jan-14 13:05:07

Why would you want a 6 yr old to wear lip gloss? confused

I can't see why it isn't enough for little girls to wear lovely dresses to a party and that be enough. Why do mothers think they have to add make up? I don't get the argument that you have to do it becuase your child asked you. There are loads of things are dcs ask us for that we say no to on a daily basis so why is make up any different?

bisjo Tue 14-Jan-14 13:05:41

Sorry typos - our, not are.

mrsjay Tue 14-Jan-14 13:05:49

because it was a lip balm that tatsted of strawberries <shrug> it didnt have a colour in it

bisjo Tue 14-Jan-14 13:07:26

I assume it was glossy though or was it lip salve? If it was lip salve that isn't make up (ds uses lip salve).

MeepMeepVrooooom Tue 14-Jan-14 13:07:39

I can't understand this either.

If my DD was playing dress up at home when she is older then occasionally ok but not to go to a party and 100% not to go to school.

I don't understand this...

bisjo Tue 14-Jan-14 13:09:52

I assume it is a change in society. I watched Educating Yorkshire recently and was amazed at the amount of make up the pupils wore. We were made to take make up off by matron when I was at school and if our skirts didn't touch the floor when we kneeled down we were sent home!

mrsjay Tue 14-Jan-14 13:10:18

tbh i cant quite remember the brand it was in a little pot with a strawberry on

Mimicking main carers is totally normal isn't it? I really cant see why my DS would want to mimic me instead of DH... or that my DD would suddenly want to shave her face for a night out? And honestly I don't know many guys who don't do themselves up for a night out - differently to women granted, but still the premise is the same.

LittleBearPad Tue 14-Jan-14 13:36:31

We had to do the skirt test too and if our hair touched our shirt collars it had to be tied up.

selfdestructivelady Tue 14-Jan-14 13:43:56

Wow come back to loads of responses. I have decided I will not put make up on dd as I don't want to teach her she has to conform.

Bowlersarm Tue 14-Jan-14 13:46:47

A little late, but of course a little make up on a social occasion is more acceptable than wearing make up to school. I would imagine primary schools have rules and regulations about it. The parents of the party girl, probably not so much.

Bowlersarm Tue 14-Jan-14 13:47:31

....unless she wants to,OP? Or even if she does want to?

selfdestructivelady Tue 14-Jan-14 13:52:01

If she wants too I will think further about it.

LittleBearPad Tue 14-Jan-14 13:53:43

Why do you think schools have rules about makeup Bowler. Could it be because it's not a good idea for primary school children to wear makeup.

Bowlersarm Tue 14-Jan-14 13:53:56

That's fair enough, OP.

selfdestructivelady Tue 14-Jan-14 13:54:15

But thinking on it she can't stand face paint so probably wouldn't like make up.

Bowlersarm Tue 14-Jan-14 13:55:27

I would imagine because it would not be in the spirit of learning LittleBear. You don't need to consider that at a party.

cuddlefish Tue 14-Jan-14 13:56:20

But is there really any distinction for a DD between 'wanting to wear make-up' and 'wanting to wear make-up because everyone else is' is there?

Bowlersarm Tue 14-Jan-14 13:58:20

...she may well not want to wear make up anyway OP. I don't like it myself. Never have done. I bite my nails, so have never worn nail polish. I don't think it's right to have a blanket ban on it though.

Bowlersarm Tue 14-Jan-14 13:59:55

What do you mean cuddlefish? That the dd only wants to wear it because the other girls are?

cuddlefish Tue 14-Jan-14 14:05:18

I suppose that is what I mean. I think the two will be indistinguishable - in her own mind. It's just pressure to fit in, to be part of the conversation about it, etc. It's not really about make-up at all.

TheRealCarrieBradshaw Tue 14-Jan-14 14:14:17

No, no, and no, YANBU!

I don't have a girl, we have boys only but if we did, I'd want to keep her young skin as natural and fresh for as long as I could. If she was in a dance show, or a fancy dress or something then yes, I'd make an exception, but for just a birthday or general party then no.

I get so annoyed when I see that Jordans baby in the magazines, and she has the lot caked on blush

projectbabyweight Tue 14-Jan-14 14:21:10

I'ts mad to suggest she might just "like make-up" at that age, independent of any outside influence. It's clearly become a widespread thing nowadays, so girls might want to do it, but that's only because they're exposed to it, or to fit in.

Who in our generation would've chosen to wear make-up to a party at that age? When we'd be the only one? It's clearly peer pressure/influence (and a shame, to focus on appearance so much sad ).

LittleBearPad Tue 14-Jan-14 14:33:02

'Spirit of learning'

Don't think so - more likely it isn't appropriate for young children to wear it

Bowlersarm Tue 14-Jan-14 14:35:24

...or may be it's fine if they want to.

LittleBearPad Tue 14-Jan-14 14:39:41

Yet schools would disagree. Sorry bowlers there are lots of things children may wish to do but they can't. It is sad to me that some children wear make up. They are so lovely without it and their skin is the best it will be

Bowlersarm Tue 14-Jan-14 14:49:22

Well, all it is really saying to me is that you want to take choices away from your girls. I think that's sad. It is a little make up for a party, we are talking about here. Not having it permanently tattooed.

MrsOakenshield Tue 14-Jan-14 14:53:46

well, if 4-year-old DD said she wanted to wear make up she would be told pretty sharpish that she couldn't. Because, bizarrely, as her mother I don't think it's especially responsible to let her do everything she wants just because she wants - really, do any parents think that? If she sees me having a glass of wine and asks for some, should I let her do that too?

It may be natural for her to want to copy the grown ups, but that doesn't mean we have to allow it, if we deem it inappropriate. And weirdly, DD is capable of understanding that some things have to wait until she is older and she is fine with that. And of course if she saw lots of other little girls wearing make up she would ask to, and of course that would be the reason why, how ludicrous to suggest otherwise. I wouldn't change my mind though because as an adult I'm capable of independent thought and don't have to go along with the crowd.

pictish Tue 14-Jan-14 14:57:32

What a lot of noise over nothing. Truly.

Not one blustery naysayer on here, has provided me with a single salient point as to why occasionally letting my dd have peelable nail varnish on, or a dusting of shadow for the fun of it, is a terrible thing, or why my dd emulating me, is any different from facepaints or dressing up as the vet or a pirate. If I was a shallow, looks obsessed ninny then I'd see your point...but I'm not, and I'm afraid you'll just have to accept my word on that.
I remain unapologetic. There's no actual harm in it, and the fact that one or two of you are determined to see something more in it than there is, says more about you than it does me.

projectbabyweight Tue 14-Jan-14 14:59:30

I wish more people thought like you MrsO.

I've not got dds, but I don't want my dss to see girls changing the way their faces look, as if to say what nature gave them wasn't good enough. I want them to think that girls are more or less (apart from the obvious) the same and equal to them.

projectbabyweight Tue 14-Jan-14 15:01:19

There's nothing shallow about worrying that you're not pretty enough without make-up. It's just sad that anyone might be taken down a path that could risk feeling this.

MrsOakenshield Tue 14-Jan-14 15:01:26

if you think that then why are you still here defending your position? And I never said there was any actual harm in it, just that I don't like it and my DD won't be doing it. You haven't provided a single good reason why they should do it.

You may be unapologetic but you're certainly very defensive.

Bowlersarm Tue 14-Jan-14 15:01:48

Totally agree with you pictish

I don't have a dd, but I'm sure I wouldn't have any problems with a little bit of make up for a party should my hypothetical dd like it.

And no I don't see it as giving her a glass of wine. What a strange comparison, MrsOakenshield.

projectbabyweight Tue 14-Jan-14 15:02:08

Which let's admit, most of us do feel.

bisjo Tue 14-Jan-14 15:04:57

I think the earlier that children learn they do not need to conform the better. That helps them develop their own self esteem and avoids them trying to get others to conform with the majority.

Bowlersarm Tue 14-Jan-14 15:05:18

I don't feel I'm not pretty enough without make up, project. I barely wear it. I never wear anything on my skin except Beauty Flash Balm very, very occasionally. Never used nail polish.

LittleBearPad Tue 14-Jan-14 15:06:49

It's not a strange comparison at all. You said those of us who don't think DD's should wear make up are taking their choices away from them. Dd might choose that she wants some of my wine, why not she's only copying mummy, or that she doesn't want to go to bed, why not mummy doesn't go until 11, or later that she doesn't want to do homework, mummy doesn't. But she doesn't get to choose about these things.

MrsOakenshield Tue 14-Jan-14 15:11:24

not at all - there seems to be a lot of blether on this thread on allowing children to make their own choices, and copy the grown ups, and then (seemingly) go with it, and I'm simply making the point that that's nonsense.

Bowlersarm Tue 14-Jan-14 15:11:46

So if a policeman turned up at a children's party and saw a load of 4 year olds drinking glasses of wine, the situation would be considered normal?

So if a policeman turned up at a children's party and a few girls had a little make up on, the situation would be considered normal?

Two completely difference scenarios, as you well know.

projectbabyweight Tue 14-Jan-14 15:16:04

I'm pleased for you Bowlersarm, but how many women feel the same? Even if it's a small minority (it isn't) why risk our daughters feeling the same? They need the message that they're perfectly fine as they are.

LittleBearPad Tue 14-Jan-14 15:16:54

Well if it was five year olds he wouldn't be able to do anything about it as it's legal to give five year olds alcohol. Four year olds he might question the parents.

But homework isn't a question of law but dd will still have to do it, nor is bedtime.

MrsOakenshield Tue 14-Jan-14 15:17:36

you are being deliberately obtuse, bowler and so I'm not going to bother to explain this any further.

Bowlersarm Tue 14-Jan-14 15:21:38

Seriously? You could dole put glasses of wine to a party of 5 year olds? Well, I didn't know that.

I would also dispute bedtime. Different DC need different bedtimes. All our three have different sleep needs.

Homework, that's a whole different age group to the one we're talking about. My ds2 doesn't seem to think he needs to do too much.

projectbabyweight Tue 14-Jan-14 15:29:04

If we're talking homework, how about feminism 101? <fnar fnar>

Bowlersarm Tue 14-Jan-14 15:34:45

I'm not trying to be obtuse MrsO just demonstrating how allowing a little girl to wear a little make up is not the same as allowing her to glug down wine. A silly comparison.

LittleBearPad Tue 14-Jan-14 15:34:53

I had homework at seven and only as late as that because I changed schools DSis had it at five.

It's true about the alcohol if it's a home or privately.

AllDirections Tue 14-Jan-14 15:53:48

We still don't know if it was real make up or a bit of lip gloss and nail varnish. There's a big difference IMO. No-one on this thread has said that little girls should be allowed to wear full make-up. And if it's about their skin then I think that facepaints are far worse than make-up anyway. Have you ever tried to get that stuff off? hmm

pictish Tue 14-Jan-14 15:57:59

You haven't provided a single good reason why they should do it.
Yes I have...but I'll repeat it if you like. Because it's completely innocent, harmless, and she enjoys it. That's sufficient enough reason for me and that's all I need.

LittleBearPad Tue 14-Jan-14 16:03:45

And you haven't listened to people giving you reasons why not.

Chemicals on her skin - could cause all sorts of problems especially eye makeup.
Teaching little girls that they look better with makeup on - that they aren't good enough without it
And

pictish Tue 14-Jan-14 16:13:47

Chemicals on her skin - could cause all sorts of problems especially eye makeup.
But it hasn't.

Teaching little girls that they look better with makeup on - that they aren't good enough without it
Who did that? I often tell ALL my kids they are beautiful. You're just making shit up now. Does dressing her up as a pirate teach her that she's no good without an eyepatch?
Well then.

projectbabyweight Tue 14-Jan-14 16:16:24

Why do you think women wear make up then?

LittleBearPad Tue 14-Jan-14 16:20:07

But your daughter you give make up to.

Make up which is used to make her eyes bigger, to make lips more shiny. At its most innocent level make up is used to make girls look better, look prettier. It's what women use it for and DD's mimic their mothers.

Fine if you think it doesn't have any deeper implications, connotations or consequences. I do and I think it's sad that children are no longer allowed to be children.

pictish Tue 14-Jan-14 16:23:06

You may as well ask why does a pirate wear a stripey shirt, for all the relevance adult motivations have regarding this.

LittleBearPad Tue 14-Jan-14 16:26:47

Could you explain more please

pictish Tue 14-Jan-14 16:26:47

I do and I think it's sad that children are no longer allowed to be children.

A sweeping statement that sounds good, yet means absolutely nothing.
You have no idea what goes on in my children's lives, so you can't hope to pin that on me can you?

LittleBearPad Tue 14-Jan-14 16:28:20

I'm not looking to pin anything on you.

Put make up on your daughter if you want to. I won't put it on mine.

pictish Tue 14-Jan-14 16:29:15

The motivation behind why I wear make up, is a world away from why my daughter enjoys wearing peelable nail varnish.
Twinkly fingernails make her smile because she likes glittery things, and that's all the depth there is to it.

pictish Tue 14-Jan-14 16:30:07

So don't. Who's telling you that you should? Do what you like.

LittleBearPad Tue 14-Jan-14 16:31:47

I do, and I don't feel the need to defend as you are.

Kendodd Tue 14-Jan-14 16:36:35

I don't mind little girls (or boys) in make-up, I think it looks cute in fact, as long as it's a complete mess all over their face and it's obvious they have put it on themselves. I don't like little girls in well done make up.

I think make up is to make women look sexually attractive to men (someone please come and correct me if I'm wrong) this isn't appropriate and is sexuallizing (is that a word?) small children.

pictish Tue 14-Jan-14 16:38:09

Of course I'm defending myself. Some of you are attempting to turn my daughter's dressing up fun into something unsavoury and wrong.
You're trying to tell me that I'm teaching my daughter that make up is the be all and end all of being a woman, and I'm telling you that I don't.
No more than being a sodding pirate is the be all and end all of being a woman anyway.
Perspective - get some.

projectbabyweight Tue 14-Jan-14 16:40:58

Make-up = trying to look better.

Trying to look better = feeling not good enough to start with.

Is it just me?!

pictish Tue 14-Jan-14 16:45:57

Make-up = trying to look better.

Trying to look better = feeling not good enough to start with.

Pirate = trying to look like a pirate.

Trying to look like a pirate = not feeling good enough as not a pirate.

My daughter is almost 5. Her motivation is that of a child.

projectbabyweight Tue 14-Jan-14 16:48:20

My brain's melting, I'm off...

pictish Tue 14-Jan-14 16:48:22

Point being - you are attempting to put adult motivation onto a 5 yr old girl who hasn't a scooby about any of that.
Who's being inappropriate now?

mrsjay Tue 14-Jan-14 16:48:49

suggesting children wear make up to sexualise them is disgusting they are children

Bowlersarm Tue 14-Jan-14 16:49:20

LittleBear if you are so concerned about chemicals in make up do you ensure all the products in your house that your DC use don't have chemicals in them? Shampoo, conditioner, soap, washing detergent etc?

Kendodd Tue 14-Jan-14 16:56:01

"suggesting children wear make up to sexualise them is disgusting they are children"

I'm not suggesting that children wear make up to sexualise themselves or even that the adults who put it on them are doing so to sexualise them. I'm pointing out why women wear make-up and why it is inappropriate for children.

As I said though, I don't mind little children in make-up, as long as it's a complete mess all over their face and it's obvious they have put it on themselves. It's a bit like walking around in you mum's high heels when done like that.

LittleBearPad Tue 14-Jan-14 16:58:31

I do pay attention yes. But I pay more to her bath stuff etc than the bleach I put down the loo. I wouldn't put toy make up on her skin as I have no idea what's in it and where it's made. Id rather use my own make up on her than Tinkerbell's glittery lip gloss or whatever crap toys r us sell.

LittleBearPad Tue 14-Jan-14 16:58:59

I do pay attention yes. But I pay more to her bath stuff etc than the bleach I put down the loo. I wouldn't put toy make up on her skin as I have no idea what's in it and where it's made. Id rather use my own make up on her than Tinkerbell's glittery lip gloss or whatever crap toys r us sell.

pictish Tue 14-Jan-14 17:02:12

Come to think of it - isn't it strange how we all encourage our kids to dress up as pirates?
I mean, historically, what do actual pirates do but attack, thieve, rape, pillage and kill? Why would any of us want our kids emulating pirates?

I'll tell you what this boils down to...fashion. Pirates are in, and girly girls are out. Simple as that...and that is proved here by the fact that no one can give me one good sensible reason as to why my daughter's peelable glittery nail varnish is the abomination they're making it out to be, any more than they can tell me why dressing up as a pirate is grand.

LittleBearPad Tue 14-Jan-14 17:03:56

Bit obsessed with the pirates there.

People have told you what they think. You don't agree. That's your call.

pictish Tue 14-Jan-14 17:04:01

It's ALL good fun.

pictish Tue 14-Jan-14 17:04:41

Pirates are just a handy comparison that's all.

Tell me I'm wrong.

BeaWheesht Tue 14-Jan-14 17:04:56

Bloody hell. Dd is 3 and sometimes wears nail varnish and uses a Chapstick which she thinks is lipstick. He wears them because she likes sparkly things, just like she wears her princess dresses and tutu but also in exactly the same way that she likes her Mike from monsters inc costume and her tool belt. It's just fun, really, life can be just fun sometimes, not EVERYHING has to be deep and meaningful. This kind of thing really really pisses me off, I'm a feminist, of course I am but I'm not going to look for fault in EVERYHING my daughter thinks, feels or experiences for the rest of her life, for that way madness lies.

pictish Tue 14-Jan-14 17:05:52

Bea I agree wholeheartedly.

mrsjay Tue 14-Jan-14 17:23:33

i wear foundation and mascara and eyeshadow to work sometimes kendodd not a man in sight am i trying to attract women then I have been married for 20 odd years am i trying to look attractive for other men nah

Bowlersarm Tue 14-Jan-14 17:35:51

Perfectly put BeaWheesht

LittleBearPad Tue 14-Jan-14 17:51:48

But none of you would sit at a party saying how nice each other's daughter's make up looked. Would you?

Bowlersarm Tue 14-Jan-14 17:55:30

It's just a bit of fun LittleBear. Not the be all and end all.

LittleBearPad Tue 14-Jan-14 17:56:16

To you. Not to everyone.

Ericaequites Tue 14-Jan-14 17:58:15

It's just wrong for children to wear makeup. It encourages vanity, which needs to be squelched at all costs. Little girls need to be neat, tidy, and dressed for the weather. Firm and unflattering school uniforms are to be encouraged.
There's a time and a place for such things, and it's out of school after thirteen or so. My school in the 80s would send girls of seventeen to wash their face.
Disclosure: I'm a former Quaker (Society of Friends) who loathes sexualization of children, but who has only cats.

Bowlersarm Tue 14-Jan-14 18:21:25

To the posters you are addressing.

Sparklymommy Tue 14-Jan-14 18:26:41

Those of you saying that you are teaching your children not to conform are making problems for them in the future. Mark my words.

I live in a very non conformist town and the faff we had when the secondary school brought back school uniform was horrendous. It is not teaching them how to get on in the real world. Any child who wants to be a policeman/ nurse/ coastguard they have a uniform, a dress code at the very least: by encouraging the children to reject the school uniform the parents made an issue out of something that was a non issue.

Just as some of the people on this thread are doing over a little bit of lip gloss and eyeshadow. The ones worrying about chemicals and not wanting them on their children's skin are the ones who cause a problem, in the same way as children that are denied sweets are usually the ones who crave them, and go crazy on them when mummy isn't around.

A little of everything in moderation is better for well rounded individuals. Obviously keeping in the legal boundaries. I would never encourage my children to take drugs for example.

The children who are denied make up at a young age when playing dress ups are the ones who will rebel in their teens and plaster the stuff on as soon as they leave the house. The ones who have "played" with it either learn that less is more and know how to apply it properly or aren't interested by the time they reach their teens.

For the record I very rarely wear make up. And when I do it's for my benefit, because it makes me feel good, not because I want others to think I'm pretty.

My dd, at 11, is very good at applying make up. And knows what looks nice. She doesn't wear it everyday, maybe if she is going to a function or when she is performing. She has decent make up and knows that she needs to wash it off to prevent spots. She's never really seen the need to have "kiddy make up" because she had always used proper make up for festivals and shows with her dancing.

I actually agree with pictish that you can pick holes in all the role play games children play. Why are we encouraging our children to play pirates? Or soldiers? What's wrong with wantig to play at princesses? It's your insecurities and problem. Not the children's.

LittleBearPad Tue 14-Jan-14 18:41:06

And I don't think that saying no to a bit of glittery make-up tat at five will doom my daughter to a life of trauma. And heaven forbid I pay attention to the bath stuff I buy.

There's no need to encourage girls to play princesses. Disney is doing that job. Maybe the pirates etc are an attempt to balance it out. I don't care if dd wants play princesses, pirates or anything.

BeaWheesht Tue 14-Jan-14 18:56:29

erica are you serious? If so I find it quite disturbing that you think it's ok for girls to wear make up etc after the age of 13. Why? Do you consider them to be 'grown up' at that age? Surely if you honestly believe that make up for little ones should be avoided then they shouldn't wear it at all even as grown ups or at the very least until they are adults which 13 year olds most definitely are not. What message are you sending out saying no to make up unless you're a teenager then it's ok because....because what? You're sexually mature? Grown up? An adult? None of those things are true.

BeaWheesht Tue 14-Jan-14 18:58:18

And genuinely, why is vanity a bad thing? In moderation isn't it a good thing to take pride in our appearance? I know when I'm feeling depressed my 'vanity' is the first thing to go because I don't value myself enough to care.

Sparklymommy Tue 14-Jan-14 19:02:52

It's about balance. In all honesty I wouldn't put make up on my four year old for a children's party. But I wouldn't make a big thing of saying no to it when playing dress up.

My children have a rail of dress up clothes ranging from policemen, princesses, tutus, scooby do, nurses, skeletons, vampires, pirates, fairies, firemen, you name it I think they have it! At the last count I think there were about 30 outfits and they all play with pretty much all of them. As I said earlier my macho 6 year old ds loves wearing the flouncy Cinderella ball gown and has often plate the dame in the pantomimes my children insist on creating -every bloody weekend. It encourages them to use their imaginations and they love it.

I would never dream of telling my boys they couldn't be the princess or the mermaid. And I would never dream of telling the girls they couldn't be the fireman or the knight. Children playing dress up don't care about genre specifics and I see nothing wrong with them using make up in their games. Dd is particularly good at zombie and vampire make up.

So long as they are having fun, where is the harm? It's washed off properly and put away. Its not about "being pretty" it's about playing make believe.

pictish Tue 14-Jan-14 19:42:03

For the record - my dd has never worn any make up to a party...but my friends dds have, and I was speaking out with them in mind as well as myself. They're good mums who feel as I do about it. It's dress up and play.

Dds adventures in make up are largely confined to the house. I did let her keep her barely visable shadow on once...to go to my friend's house on NYE. I saw no harm in it at all.

So for those of you who think I'm raising Honey Boo Boo. I'm not.

But neither am I so upclenched or influenced by the media and mumsnet I think it's the Devil's work either. If it's ok for them to pretend to be a fucking pirate, then it sure as hell is ok to pretend to be mummy too.

pictish Tue 14-Jan-14 19:47:44

Oh I lie - she has worn nail varnish and glitter dust to parties. Oh. Dear. Feminism is surely unravelling as I type.

Sparklymommy Tue 14-Jan-14 19:55:18

I don't think it would even occur to me to put make up on a 4 year old for a birthday party. Most of the parties my 4 year old goes to are at play centres or parks.

Emulating mummy is normal. I caught mine tottering around in my high heels earlier. Nothing Wrong with it. It's normal, developmental, kiddies playtime. Some people on this thread are very uptight. Pick your battles! That's my advice.

So many mumsnetters appear to restrict so much that one day i garuantee that their children will rebel when they hit their teens. These perfect parents are asking for trouble. My children know their boundaries. But they also know that within reason i will listen to them and take their views on board.

Ericaequites Tue 14-Jan-14 20:18:22

I don't think makeup is needful for anyone not on stage or television. Besides, there's much difference between four and thirteen. I know modern thirteen year olds can't be run so strictly as they were thirty years ago. I don't like teen in makeup, either, but have to be realistic. I live in the States, where eighteen is the age of majority. I'm shocked that English girls are allowed out overnight with boys at festivals. I'm also shocked by American coed sleepovers.

BeaWheesht Tue 14-Jan-14 21:47:16

What all English girls?

BeaWheesht Tue 14-Jan-14 22:09:25

Oh and fwiw I'm not English and nor is dd but there's no way on earth shed be staying out overnight at festivals with boys or otherwise as a young teenager.

MakingEveryDayCount Tue 14-Jan-14 22:15:34

Sorry, it's not very clear from the posts I've read whether the children had make up put on them as part of the party games, or if they came to the party already decked out in face paint.
If it's the former, I don't think it's too bad (says she with two boys so no experience of this! grin )as it's just playing at putting on make up and it can be washed off later.
If it's the latter though, I would have a problem with that.
Why the hell would any sane parent casually take their child out to parties in make-up at the age of FOUR?!
They're still more or less pre-schoolers at that age!
Teenagers yes, fair enough. Just out of nursery school is bonkers!

Dromedary Tue 14-Jan-14 22:20:14

It seems a bit strange. I have 2 DDs and there has been no sign of make up on any friends until 10 years old (the school allows it!).

Sparklymommy Tue 14-Jan-14 22:34:02

I think someone's misunderstanding what I mean by festivals. My children perform in dance competitions (also called festivals) where they perform on stage in costume and make up. Not music festivals with bands. And certainly not staying out overnight!!!

MrsOakenshield Wed 15-Jan-14 10:10:13

Those of you saying that you are teaching your children not to conform are making problems for them in the future. Mark my words.

in the same way as children that are denied sweets are usually the ones who crave them, and go crazy on them when mummy isn't around.

The children who are denied make up at a young age when playing dress ups are the ones who will rebel in their teens and plaster the stuff on as soon as they leave the house.

you seem very sure about this. Can you link to some evidence to back your claims up?

As I said upthread, I never played with make up as a child (perhaps because my mum didn't wear much, I don't know) and didn't start wearing it until I was around 16/17 - never plastered it on - no-one I knew did.

It's a real MN myth that if parents dare to exercise some limitations on what their children do, the end result has to be an older child who will proceed to gorge on whatever it is that they have so unfairly been denied/limited - sweets/Tv/make up/whatever. And yet my RL experience hasn't shown this at all. My only downside of being denied access to make up as a child is that I didn't know much about applying it properly, and still don't (but my mum was simply a powder and lippy woman, so she wouldn't have been much help anyway) - with that in mind I intend to take DD at an appropriate age (13/14) to have a proper make up lesson in town. And of course I will talk to her about the subject and give my reasons, should she think I'm being terribly terribly mean.

MadeOfStarDust Wed 15-Jan-14 10:35:50

but... why is age 13/14 "appropriate" ?

mine have experimented with their own faces from an early age , they can do it so that it looks nice and it has no connection in their minds at all to adolescence, going through puberty and the whole sexualisation of the female face thing.

Personally I would have thought that for those reasons age 13/14 is precisely the wrong age...

BeaWheesht Wed 15-Jan-14 12:01:47

Yes madeofstardust I agree completely that's what I was trying to say earlier

cuddlefish Wed 15-Jan-14 12:02:42

Are 6 year olds clamouring to be allowed to wear make-up, or are adults indulging their whimsy and love of all things pretty by getting them into it?

We do this to our daughters, unless it somehow comes from inside.

MrsOakenshield Wed 15-Jan-14 13:03:56

because that's the age that I, as her mother, have decided is a reasonable age to start thinking about make up and to have a make up lesson. In fact, if she shows no interest at that age, I wouldn't bother - but any earlier is, in my own personal book, too early. And actually, I haven't said anything about sexualisation etc - I simply don't like make up on little girls, just like I don't like earrings (even clip ons), and guess what? I don't have to! I'm capable of independent thought!

An examaple - at a 4 year old's birthday party this weekend (where no make up was in evidence, nor has it been at any party of this age I've been to), most little girls in little girl party stuff - one in a dress which (it's hard to explain) to me looked like a very adult style - not revealing or anything like that, just adult. And I didn't like it. Didn't say anything of course. Just my own opinion. I wouldn't, and won't, buy my DD a dress in that kind of style, even if she wants it. I don't have to, merely because someone else has and she wants it.

Sparklymommy Wed 15-Jan-14 15:21:28

I do not have any links for you mrs O, but plenty of anecdotal evidence that I have seen with my own eyes. I am not saying that ALL children would rebel, but many do, especially when they have been denied something.

I am not saying that little girls of 6 should be encouraged to wear make up if its not of interest to them, but experimentation at a young age is not a bad thing. It's not a sexual thing (as apposed to at 13/14 when it could have those connotations) its just a fun role playing game.

The people on this thread saying its a sexual thing are projecting that attitude themselves. The children do not see it as such.

As you have said yourself, you didn't know how to put make up on. My 11 year old does. And she does a good job of it for the most part.

How do all these people feel about the use of face paints?

Ericaequites Wed 15-Jan-14 17:17:41

I don't think 13/14 is a good age, but better than preschool. I think wearing flattering clean clothes are a good thing, but makeup on four year olds is not alright.
Going to dance festivals as. You described is a wonderful experience. I've seen mentions on Mumsnet of teens going with groups of peers to Glastonbury on their own. That's much too dangerous.

Sparklymommy Wed 15-Jan-14 17:57:23

When I was a teen a few of my friends went to Glastonbury. There is no way on this earth that my mother would have allowed that! And I wouldn't have wanted to tbf. The idea was scary enough for me. And no way would my dc be doing that!

1974rach Wed 15-Jan-14 19:06:45

I don't have a child as yet but I am an auntie to several little girls. I have a life long love of make up and a large collection (admittedly far more than one person needs but that is my perogative) which makes me very popular amongst my nieces.

They all love a bit of glittery nail polish (goes along with dressing up as various Disney princesses) and shiny lips.

They have boundaries in which they can "play", established by their parents, it's not about sexualising children in the slightest. It is merely allowing them be princess twinkle face.

I would have massive concerns about 4 year olds wearing what I consider full make up but wearing twinkly nail polish once in a blue moon is just dressing up.

Awaiting a flaming ...

Sparklymommy Wed 15-Jan-14 19:18:38

I seriously think the people who think its sexual/ derogatory or sexist are the ones that have a problem tbh.

MrsOakenshield Wed 15-Jan-14 19:26:18

anecodotal evidence that some children might run amok after being denied something (really? you consider telling a child that X is for when they are older, with an explanation as to why, denying? Goodness.) isn't enough to make me change my mind on this or anything else related. And I'm really not sure that being an expert at applying make-up at 11 is a life skill to be proud of (though a lack of such at 42 is perhaps something to be embarrassed about!), but that's up to you, of course - again, to me, not a great reason to allow it at a young age.

I did just pluck 13/14 out of the air - my point being that just because DD isn't playing with make up at 4 doesn't have to result in a young adult/adult who can't apply make up.

Bowlersarm Wed 15-Jan-14 20:09:26

Oh FFS.

I have nieces and goddaughters.

Some wore make up when they were little, some didn't.

Guess what!

They all wear a little as adults.

It....ain't....rocket.....science.

If they wore a little as a 4 year old what does it matter? Fuck all.

Sparklymommy Wed 15-Jan-14 20:14:39

Dd1 has learnt to do her own make up through years of performing on stage. She has also been looking at courses in stage make up during the holidays and I encourage this as its a useful thing to be able to do, especially if she wants to perform (and she does).

Nobody is saying that four year olds should be plastered in make up at every oppurtunity. They are talking about a little brush of eye shadow and a smidge of lip gloss. Maybe a bit of glittery nail polish.

Personally I would rather that than the writing up the arms look when they try to colour themselves in with felt tip pens. Which doesn't always come off easily with a wet wipe.

I also cannot stand those transfer tattoos that the children seem to adore. My children do not wear those, as they have learnt that they must be taken off before going to school or performing and it hurts scrubbing them off with flannels and soap.

ConstantCraving Wed 15-Jan-14 20:43:44

What is not being addressed in this discussion is the women sitting round saying how pretty the girls with make up look and not commenting on the OP's daughter who had no make up on. In the OP's scenario the children don't seem to give a damn about the make up and who is / isn't wearing it, its clearly driven my the mum's - a fair few of whom seem to have descended on this thread!

LittleBearPad Thu 16-Jan-14 00:11:48

Craving and cuddle fish make very good points. Mothers are driving the wearing of pretty make-up to parties not little girls who yes may want to play with make-up as they would with face paint to make themselves pirates but don't need to have their eyelids painted to go to soft play, or worse a princess party.

IceBeing Thu 16-Jan-14 00:16:00

Well i certainly agree that 13/14 is the absolute worse time to admit to your child that they don't look good enough as they are and should start learning to use cosmetics....maybe you could point out their boobs aren't the right shape/size at the same time and get them on the waiting list for surgery.

LittleBearPad Thu 16-Jan-14 00:17:30

When would you suggest Ice

As I doubt many four year olds actually learn how to put on make-up but instead get it put on them.

IceBeing Thu 16-Jan-14 00:22:44

I really don't understand why people think it doesn't make a difference if girls play with make up at such a young age.

Boys notice. By the time they are 4/5 boys already don't want anything to do with 'girlie' activities. They already insult each other by saying calling each other 'a girl'.

EVERYTHING we do to artificially encourage only children of one gender to engage in certain activities is damaging to society.

Thats why I have no problem with people putting on a little nail varnish if they would equally encourage their sons to try it out.

I have no problem with dresses and fairy costumes as long as boys are equally encouraged to wear them as girls.

I have no problem with pink clothes as long as you would reuse them all for a younger male sibling.

But for most people the above isn't true, is it?

So until pink, and make up and dresses and fairy costumes are actually equally acceptable for girls and boys I will not be encouraging DD in any of them. I won't stop her if thats the way her interest goes but I wont encourage.

IceBeing Thu 16-Jan-14 00:26:56

little

I plan NEVER to tell DD she needs to improve herself!

I plan to spend my entire life giving her the impression that she is loved and adored for all the wonderful things about her, her appearance being a tiny insignificant part of the whole.

I plan to tell her that anyone who requires her to look a certain way in order to be deemed worthy of friendship/love is a person she would be better off without.

MrsOakenshield Thu 16-Jan-14 08:30:15

Ice, it would be nice if you read all my posts instead of just odd bits. I did say that I had slightly plucked that age of the air and that in fact if she showed no interest I wouldn't be bothered. I suppose what I was thinking was that if she did express an interest in wearing make up, that I would want her to wait (this is if she was very young) and that I would like her to know how to apply it properly.

I don't actually have all your concerns about make up and sexualisation, possibly because I don't ever recall having all your issues in general - but that may well be because I grew up in a very female environment (girls' school from age 7, female-dominated family) where I never had much concept that certain things were for boys only (all the women in my mother's family are uni-educated professional working women, lots of girls doing physics and maths at A level), and at age 13/14 boys were barely on my radar - I didn't know any, and boyfriends were something that happened to other girls. I daresay I was very innocent and naive.

I was very gothy and that was what influenced the make up I wore - white face, black eyes. The concept that make up was to attract boys passed me by - I wore the make up I wanted to get the look I wanted, for me. Though I was rather cack-handed about it. Still do and still am.

The point that I obviously rather badly made, as so many posters seem to have misunderstood it, is that I was responding to a poster who seemed to suggest that girls who weren't allowed to experiment with make up would end up not knowing how to apply it, and I was simply stating that that did not have to be the case. However, I really do wish that I hadn't bothered, or indeed bothered about this thread at all.

Let your 4-year-old wear make up, don't let them, whatever. There have been stupid arguments on both sides on this thread so I'm sure we'll all just stick with what we think best anyway.

Sparklymommy Thu 16-Jan-14 08:35:34

Ice pink was originally introduced as a colour for the male gender. Which is what my boys tell anyone who dares to insinuate their pink t-shirts are girlie.

They both had t-shirts that said "tough enough to wear pink" which MANY mothers wanted to buy off me when they outgrew them.

As I have said above, on more than one occasion, my boys (aged 6 and 7) both wear fairy dresses, enjoy sitting on the chair having a "make over" and even have their hair put in bunches by their older sister.

Just as the girls will often be seen dressed as pirates/vets/soldiers/knights when they are playing dress up.

It's the parents that make the children have these preconceived ideas. And in the grand scheme of things, does it really matter? It's like the mothers who think ballet is for girls, and therefore won't let their little girls do ballet because it must be for the "weaker" sex. I challenge any of those mothers to take a proper look at it. My boys have been lucky in that they have very good older male dancers at our dance school for them to look up to. They are quick to tell anyone who wants to tease them that many footballers are sent to ballet lessons to gain strength.

I reiterate: I wouldn't put make up on my four year old to go to a soft play birthday party. I might put it on them to go to a disco party. But I am talking about a small smidge of glittery eye shadow and a bit of lip gloss. I also might spray their hair with glittery hair spray.

Yes, my little girls wear pretty dresses. They like to look "nice" but then so do my boys. They have their smart shirts and cords and "going out" clothes. Wanting to look good and taking pride in your appearance is not something to be judged harshly on.

Sparklymommy Thu 16-Jan-14 08:42:46

MrsO I totally get what you are saying now. I didn't get that before. Of course you don't have to have experimented at a young age to know how to apply make up. There are plenty of tutorials online, make up companies that offer lessons, but many don't bother.

It was one aspect of why I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing to experiment younger. Not necessarily a reason to let them or not, just an advantage if they have. And there again I know several girls who have experimented young and still can't apply it!

I am of the less is more school of thought. I get that not everyone is!

Kendodd Thu 16-Jan-14 09:25:50

Well i certainly agree that 13/14 is the absolute worse time to admit to your child that they don't look good enough as they are and should start learning to use cosmetics....

I think 13/14/15 is a good time. It's the time they start growing up and slowly turning into adults. Their skin changes and they need to start thinking about looking after it, they sweat more and so need to wash more and maybe wear deodorant, they develop breasts and so need a bra.

maybe you could point out their boobs aren't the right shape/size at the same time and get them on the waiting list for surgery.

Do you think this is what we are saying to them by taking them to their first bra fitting?

Although I have to admit even at that age I wouldn't introduce make-up to my girls I would wait for them to want to wear it and ask me if they could.

I'm in the 'four year olds shouldn't be made-up for a party' camp, but I don't see why the poster who is saying she would wait until her girls are teenagers before they are allowed to wear make-up is being jumped on.

Kendodd Thu 16-Jan-14 09:34:15

And another thing, admit to your child that they don't look good enough

Admit? What are you suggesting, that all girls 'don't look good enough' and need to wear make up?

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