To be astonished at the stupidity of the Smart Swap campaign?

(235 Posts)
Farrowandbawlbauls Thu 02-Jan-14 15:21:38

Yes, we all need to eat better and move about more but I've just seen the advert for swapping sugar loaded fizzy drinks for sugar free ones.

Am I alone in thinking it's one of the most ill thought of things they've come up with yet?

The sweetners in sugar free drinks are dangerous. The sugar free stuff usually advertised is most of the time, worse than the full fat stuff.


I can see why they are doing this as it is a huge problem in this country, but I don't thing they've thought this through at all.

AwfulMaureen Thu 02-Jan-14 15:23:37

Yanbu..utterly ridiculous. Also the idea of swapping to low fat spreads...I would not touch any of those plastic spreads with a barge pole....they're terrible!

katese11 Thu 02-Jan-14 15:24:15

Is it aimed at kids? Cause I wouldn't give mine Sugar free drinks... They have juice or water -I know juice isn't ideal for teeth but at least you understand what's in it!

Farrowandbawlbauls Thu 02-Jan-14 15:25:49

Thank god for that, I thought I was going mad.

Thank you.

I'm with you on the spreads, awful stuff.

katese11 Thu 02-Jan-14 15:26:11

And it's giving a negative message about whole milk, when toddlers need the fat!

Farrowandbawlbauls Thu 02-Jan-14 15:26:31

It's aimed at everyone katese11.

Farrowandbawlbauls Thu 02-Jan-14 15:27:07

I'd even argue that everyone needs fat, salt and sugar - it's just a matter of watching how much you are eating ffs.

The stuff about aspartame is bunkum, iirc. But any soft drink can be bad for teeth so in that respect, YANBU.

Joysmum Thu 02-Jan-14 15:28:27

My problem is with cittibg back on sugar and calories, not with sweeteners. Swapping for diet drinks works for me. Many people won't touch low fat spreads or any diet foods either because of salt and additives.

I think amending diet and lifestyle is best done in baby steps to be sustainable long term.

I think most people know what's best to eat (home cooked so you know what's in it, lean protein, low fat, low sugar, high fibre, lots of different fruit and veg) but for many, they can't do it. You have to wonder why? It's not as simple as it seems in many cases to anyone who has never had foody issues. If it was, everyone would only pop on a couple of lbs and find it easy to ditch it again and nobody would ever be overweight or obese.

Madambossyboots Thu 02-Jan-14 15:29:02

Yanbu. It tastes disgusting too, not that I drink it or buy it as a rule but Dh did buy sprite for the dc over Christmas whilst we had wine! One of dc said it tastes horrible, tasted it, was indeed horrible. The label says.... Improved ..... Brevia extract, natural blah blah, it's all sweetners. I would rather proper sugar as a treat once in while, not sweetners, all day long. It's not healthy IMO.

Farrowandbawlbauls Thu 02-Jan-14 15:30:19

Exactly Madam, it's not healthy.

For me it's sending alarm bells ringing in my head.

SledYuleCated Thu 02-Jan-14 15:30:58

YANBU, I've found quite a few of the Change4Life things to be a bit odd.

NumptyNameChange Thu 02-Jan-14 15:31:06

we get spoon fed some utter nonsense about diet.

wouldn't touch diet foods or low fat spreads - horrible artificial nonsense. low fat yoghurt is the most idiotic that springs to mind - yoghurt IS low fat but the fat that is in it is not bad for you as such and is the nutrition in the product. take the fat out and it's essentially water and synthetics with no nutritional value. just don't have a bloody yoghurt if you're that worried about it. it's a yoghurt for gods sake - eat the full fat normal yoghurt that will have some actual nutritional value and don't have the mars bar from the vending machine at breaktime.

timidviper Thu 02-Jan-14 15:32:51

You can apply this statement to most processed foods, nasty chemical shitstorms, but the message eat wholesone fresh food does not make money for the big food companies who often fund government advice and the people producing it.

Drink water will not attract the funding that Coca-Cola may put into something that says drink diet drinks. Eat a healthy diet will not attract funding from Flora, Benecol and the low-fat brigade

Solo Thu 02-Jan-14 15:33:03


I tried unsuccessfully before Christmas twice to buy the full sugar variety of Tesco own brand lemonade, cream soda and dandelion and burdock. Nothing!
I refuse to feed my Dc's sugar free stuff with added poison.
I do though avoid sugary cereals and only buy semi skimmed milk, but I insist they have full fat yoghurt which Ds rarely has, but Dd has every breakfast time.

I understand the need for people to understand/realise what their families need in terms of healthy choices and exercise, but sugar substitutes? how about small amount of real sugar, honey or no sweetening at all instead?

Farrowandbawlbauls Thu 02-Jan-14 15:35:03

timid "You can apply this statement to most processed foods, nasty chemical shitstorms, but the message eat wholesone fresh food does not make money for the big food companies who often fund government advice and the people producing it."

It's exactly that which has set the alarm bells off in my head.

mrspremise Thu 02-Jan-14 15:49:46

Timidviper, I agree completely smile You win the thread afaic, fresh food is of no interest to these 'campaigns' because vegetables don't have pockets at all, let alone deep ones grin

I am not a fan of artificial sweeteners - they taste grim and there have been suggestions that they do weird stuff to your metabolism. They are generally used because they are cheaper than sugar, with the added bonus of manufacturers being able to boast about their products being reduced or zero sugar, which in a world which focusses on calories and seems to think it's soley the sugar and not the acids in soft drinks that wreck teeth, sells.

They are not however "poison".

Solo Thu 02-Jan-14 16:02:37

I believe that aspartame is poison.

gordyslovesheep Thu 02-Jan-14 16:06:05

I believe aspartame is absolutely safe <opens diet Pepsi> I also don't need to eat better or move more

gordyslovesheep Thu 02-Jan-14 16:07:44
Farrowandbawlbauls Thu 02-Jan-14 16:07:51

Forget the aspartame - it's everything.

Low fat or sugar free stuff is in general worse for you than the full fat/sugar stuff. Yes?

Solo Thu 02-Jan-14 16:09:18

Yes. I think so Farrow

gordyslovesheep Thu 02-Jan-14 16:10:44

not necessarily in a balanced diet - I wont have marg I only have butter but I do drink skimmed milk

fresh, home cooked food is better but it's not always doable - a low fat alternative is miles better than a fat filed ready meal I would imagine

gordyslovesheep Thu 02-Jan-14 16:11:23

I think drinking 5 diet drink is better than drinking 5 full fat one though - sorry

Solo Thu 02-Jan-14 16:11:39

I'm not about to start buying in aspartame 'sweetened' products on anyones sayso gordy as I believe it's no good!

Solo Thu 02-Jan-14 16:13:18

Apart from Christmas, I don't buy fizzy drinks anyway, but I'd like to be able to buy full sugar versions.

RevoltInParadise Thu 02-Jan-14 16:16:14

Can someone explain about the spreads please? W usually use can't believe it's not butter but happy to swap to proper butter if better? What about the fat content?

gordyslovesheep Thu 02-Jan-14 16:16:15

I don't believe it's compulsory solo

gordyslovesheep Thu 02-Jan-14 16:16:59

trans fats - not good fats

EndoplasmicReticulum Thu 02-Jan-14 16:17:38

There is no evidence that sweeteners are dangerous.

I don't buy them though because I think they taste nasty.

madamecake Thu 02-Jan-14 16:18:36

YANBU! I would much rather give my dd a drink with sugar in than one packed full of artificial sweetener.

Solo Thu 02-Jan-14 16:20:01

Thank goodness for my decaff tea!!!

Solo Thu 02-Jan-14 16:21:31

Felt dreadful that my craving when pg with Dd was diet coke with lemon or lime. Marginally better? hmm than my craving with Ds which was fruit cake and lager blush

makemineabacardi Thu 02-Jan-14 16:25:18

That's nothing Solo, when pg with DD my craving was pot noodle. Now THOSE are bad for you. grin

CailinDana Thu 02-Jan-14 16:25:56

Milk is a highly nutritious food - really really good for you. Cutting down on milk and butter makes no sense. As other posters have said, low fat yoghurt is absolutely bonkers. They replace all the nutrition with cellulose, a substance made from wood pulp that the body can't digest. What's the point? My kids eat thick greek yoghurt with fruit squished into it - yummy, cheap, filling and very nutritious.

Sunnymeg Thu 02-Jan-14 16:26:41

The irony of all this, as any diabetics will tell you, is that a lot of low fat foods have extra sugar added, to enhance their flavour. DH is diabetic and was advised not to choose low fat goods. grin

CailinDana Thu 02-Jan-14 16:32:22

The whole "low fat" thing is all mixed up. Food has become such a pleasure product that people seem to forget that you need to nourish your body by providing it with the building blocks it needs to construct new healthy cells. That includes fat, protein and carbohydrates. In terms of nourishment a slice of brown toast with cheese and beans, a banana and a packet of crisps is spot on. It has enough fibre, fat, salt, sugar, calcium, carbohydrate and potassium to give you a good energy boost and keep you full.

MrsDeVere Thu 02-Jan-14 16:32:37

I saw this advert today and was only half watching because DM was visiting.

I sort of did a double take with my mouth open.
I couldn't believe they were going on about calories wrt to children and then getting them to swap with sugar free fizzy drinks and appeared to be walking off with a glass of water on the tray confused

I am relaxedish about food. I don't make a big deal out of healthy eating but don't buy a lot of processed stuff either.

But this advert seems very poorly thought out. Kids don't need that fizzy crap full stop and the calorie content is the least of the issue IMO.

frankie4 Thu 02-Jan-14 16:33:38

This campaign is sponsored by the supermarkets so it is all wrong.

The problem is not that children are drinking too much semi skimmed milk instead of skimmed milk, but that they are eating too many crisps, chocolate and biscuits etc. It is in the supermarkets interest for parents to swap butter for low fat spread, but to continue buying sweets and unhealthy ready meals.

Much better for children to eat full fat milk, cheese, butter and lots of fruit and veg. I don't give my children low fat anything as I think they need good fats, but I do limit sausage rolls, sausages, crisps etc as they have fats but no nutrition.

FraidyCat Thu 02-Jan-14 16:34:39

I wont have marg I only have butter

I avoid artificial sweeteners, but there's nothing wrong with margarine that I'm aware of. Surely it's just fat from a plant instead of an animal?

I didn't like G&T until I was pregnant. Not that I indulged much (we were allowed a unit or 2 twice a week or something then I think) but good lord that craving took me by surprise.

Bloody tonic almost always has sweeteners in it these days - even Schweppes.

frankie4 Thu 02-Jan-14 16:37:09

Also, in terms of how they teach this at school... I had an argument with ds recently as he had been told by his teacher that diet drinks are healthier than orange juice as they have less calories!! I could not believe he had been taught this but I checked with other mums and they had been. I think the supermarkets have a huge influence in all these campaigns as of course there is more profit in diet fizzy drinks than in fresh fruit juices.

TheBigJessie Thu 02-Jan-14 16:38:03

There are too many people who think fat is evil as it is. I have not forgotten being asked if it was a good idea to give my 9 month old a bit of avocado "because that's got a lot of fat in" by a well-meaning relative. hmm A well-meaning, extremely well-educated relative, by the way. Just not in the nutritional sphere.

NoComet Thu 02-Jan-14 16:38:19

Swap things I like for things I hate, ODFODGoverment

frankie4 Thu 02-Jan-14 16:40:42

This is from the Smart Swap Campaign website:

"Brands that have signed up to offer vouchers include Unilever, Pepsi Max and Robinsons, while people can redeem the vouchers at stores including Asda, Lidl and Co-operative Food and Aldi."


CailinDana Thu 02-Jan-14 16:46:31

Says it all really frankie. Basically if you give your child whole foods (ie foods with one ingredient) such as milk eggs nuts fruit vegetables meat in reasonable portions with small amounts of other foods such as bread cake biscuits chocolate etc then you can't go far wrong. Milk or water to drink with one glass of fruit juice per day (diluted for under 5s).

meboo Thu 02-Jan-14 16:53:17

oh how ill informed or naive some of you are.

Ever wonder how is margarine made?
Many people probably know it is made by a process called hydrogenation. But few are aware of the details of what goes on during hydrogenation.

Here is a step-by-step description of the hydrogenation process.

How is margarine made: Step 1

Margarine makers start with cheap. poor quality vegetable oils, such as corn, cottonseed, soybeans, safflower seeds and canola.

These oils have already turned rancid from being extracted from oil seeds using high temperature and high pressure. Rancid oils are loaded with free radicals that react easily with other molecules, causing cell damage, premature aging and a host of other problems.

The last bit of oil is removed with hexane, a solvent known to cause cancer. Although this hexane subsequent removed, traces of it are inevitably left behind.

Unfit for consumption

Moreover, some of these oils are not suitable for human consumption to begin with.

Cottonseed oil, one of the most popular margarine ingredients, has natural toxins and unrefined cottonseed oil is used as a pesticide. The toxin, gossypol, is removed during refining.

Cottonseed oil also contains far too much Omega-6 fatty acids in relation to Omega 3. While both Omega 6 and Omega 3 are essential fatty acids, an imbalance between the two is widely believed to cause various health problems, including heart disease.

Most experts on the subject believe that a healthy ratio of omega 3 to omega 6 is between 1:1 and 1:2. Cotton seed oil, however, has over 50 percent omega 6 and only trace amounts of Omega 3, giving a ratio of 1: several hundred or more.

As cotton is one of the most heavily sprayed crops, there are also concerns that cottonseed oil may be highly contaminated with pesticide residues. However, insufficient testing has been done.

Canola oil, which is widely touted as the healthiest oil of all, has problems as well. Consumption of Canola has been linked with vitamin E deficiency as well as growth retardation. For this reason, Canola oil is not allowed to be used in the manufacture of infant formula.

The oils used for making margarine are also among the Big Four genetically modified crops – soy, corn, rapeseed / Canola and cotton.

How is margarine made: Step 2

The raw oils for making margarine are steam cleaned. This destroys all the vitamins and antioxidants.

However, the residues of pesticides and solvents – that is, hexane – remain.

How is margarine made: Step 3

The oils are mixed with finely ground nickel, a highly toxic substance that serves as a catalyst for the chemical reaction during the hydrogenation process.

Other catalysts may be used, but these, too, are highly toxic.

How is margarine made: Step 4

The oils are then put under high temperature and pressure in a reactor.

Hydrogen gas is introduced. The high temperature and pressure, together with the presence of nickel catalyst, causes hydrogen atoms to be forced into the oil molecules.

If the oil is partially hydrogenated, it turns from liquid into a semi-solid.

Trans fats are formed during partial hydrogenation. These are fat molecules that have been twisted out of shape. In liquid oils, the molecules are bent, with the hydrogen atoms on opposite sides of each other.

During partial hydrogenation, the molecules are somewhat straightened and now all the hydrogen molecules are on the same side.

If the oil is fully hydrogenated, it turns into a hard solid that cannot be eaten. It no longer contains trans fats because the "out of shape” oil molecules have all been broken up to form straight chains. But this does not mean they have become healthy again because of all the unnatural steps above.

How is margarine made: Step 5

What comes out of the partial hydrogenation process is a smelly, lumpy, grey grease.

To remove the lumps, emulsifiers – which are like soaps – are mixed in.

How is margarine made: Step 6

The oil is steam cleaned (again!) to remove the odor of chemicals. This step is called deodorization and it again involves high temperature and high pressure.

How is margarine made: Step 7

The oil is then bleached to get rid of the grey color.

How is margarine made: Step 8

Synthetic vitamins and artificial flavors are mixed in.

A natural yellow color is added to margarine, as synthetic coloring is not allowed!

In fact, early last century, all coloring was not allowed and margarine was white. This was to protect consumers so that they do not get butter and margarine mixed up.

How is margarine made: Step 9

Finally, the margarine is promoted to the public as a health food – with the full endorsement of many scientists, doctors, nutritionists and health authorities.

Oh yes and it's one molecule away from being plastic.

As for Aspartame, well you really need to read all about artificial sweeteners too.
What is funny is that the scientist who tried to prove that it was all ok for you ended up being employed by the side that was disproving the fact and now the powers that be say it is ok, what a coincidence.

It would cost far too much for the industry if the government decided to ban it. As they say, money talk.

I wouldn't feed it to my worst enemy.

fairisleknitter Thu 02-Jan-14 16:58:31

Just googled the words Smart Swap and all top references were for the partnership details with corporate peddlars of Junk food.

Says it all.

EndoplasmicReticulum Thu 02-Jan-14 16:58:47

meboo - that looks like a c+p from a scaremongering internet site, to be honest.

"it's one molecule away from being plastic"

Well, water is one atom away from being hydrogen peroxide. Statements like that show little understanding of how chemistry works.

fairisleknitter Thu 02-Jan-14 16:59:06

Are the government financing this tripe?

TheBigJessie Thu 02-Jan-14 17:09:31

Oh yes and it's one molecule away from being plastic

Your point?

katese11 Thu 02-Jan-14 17:09:45

This is the same change4life that's partnering with Nestlé, let's not forget hmm

meboo Thu 02-Jan-14 17:13:16

EndoplasmicReticulum - if you actually typed up the chemistry then it would not read as simple as what I had already posted.
The facts are still the facts but whilst the food industry make fast and easy food and the government do not educate on how to prepare fresh meals then people will choose to ignore what is staring them in the face.

Solo Thu 02-Jan-14 17:18:36

Re that margarine info. I was also told about that by someone that worked close to that field of 'expertise' and I thought that 'margarine' itself had been banned for human consumption? don't know.
Personally, I use Bertolli or butter.

EndoplasmicReticulum Thu 02-Jan-14 17:19:36

meboo - that is not your own posting though, you have c+pasted it.

I do not disagree that fresh meals are better, I don't personally buy margarine because I prefer butter.

But I do object to nonsense statements like the one about "only one molecule away from plastic" and "it's full of chemicals"

I'm a science pedant.

fairisleknitter Thu 02-Jan-14 17:21:05

A publicly funded campaign advising people to eat marg , low fat products (often with sweeteners added) and fizzy drinks is unbelievable.

Farrowandbawlbauls Thu 02-Jan-14 17:29:05

Fairisleknitter That's exactly what I'm trying to say.

Alarm bells were ringing because I just KNEW that somewhere alsong the line supermarkets and junk food companies will be sponsoring this and as they have the Government in their back pocket one way or another it just makes a mockery of everything we were taught as children about healthy eating - which is everything all decent nutritionists and doctors will tell you. A healthy, balanced diet.

Before someone mentions it, I am aware of the spelling error in the title and have asked MNHQ to add the missing T.

timidviper Thu 02-Jan-14 17:34:32

I think we can just agree that these foods are not healthy, no matter what the governments say.

I think 2 reasonable shopping rules are:
Don't buy it if your grandmother wouldn't recognise it
Don't buy anything with more than 5 ingredients (although obviously you can cook things with more than 5 in)

NumptyNameChange Thu 02-Jan-14 17:34:47

let's face it you can barely fit a 'fag paper' between corporate interests and 'public health concerns' these days. especially when the former is paying for and advising the latter.

sad fact is that actually so long as the meat isn't getting pumped full of antibiotics and hormones and the veg aren't covered in pesticides we'd probably all be better off going back to a meat and two veg kind of diet - and then where would the likes of nestle be?

HoratiaDrelincourt Thu 02-Jan-14 17:36:26

Diet drinks make you eat more - so whilst a straight swap of Diet Coke in place of Coca Cola is a good idea because the refined sugars and empty calories are no good for you, your body is not fooled by the false sweetness and seeks out sugar/carbs in compensation.

The old joke about an extra large Big Mac meal with Diet Coke turns out to be true.

Farrowandbawlbauls Thu 02-Jan-14 17:38:31

I'd love to know which muppet came up with this latest idea though..and how many doctors, nutritionists etc are against this and what they actually say.

NumptyNameChange Thu 02-Jan-14 17:40:54

oh and eggs! don't forget eggs which though once falsely maligned are actually really good for you and the best 'fast food' you can get.

honestly the mind boggles at hte stupidity soemtimes - special k? no, just throw away all cereal and have an egg and slice of multi grain toast which will keep you fuller for longer and actually have some nutrtion in and STILL have less calories.

low fat spread? no just don't spread stuff on your sandwiches if you want to cut back because it's not essential to wipe fat on your bread in fact bread isn't even essential.

i'm also baffled by things like low fat biscuits.

smart swapping really is things like swap the fizzy drink full stop and drink more water. or, if you like a drink, ditch the beer and drinking long white wine and sodas for example. want low fat dinner? cut the fat off of your meat numpty, pick a lean cut, swap meat for fish, have a veggie meal etc.

i feel like adults should know better but i'm really sad they're starting to apply this nonsense to kids. petit filous is one of my pet hates - filled with goodness? it's made with skimmed milk powder and fructose glucose syrup ffs.

NumptyNameChange Thu 02-Jan-14 17:43:25

corporate muppets farrow - not hcps unless they're hcps turned nestle advisors or the like.

AwfulMaureen Thu 02-Jan-14 17:44:31

Aspartame is NOT in everything Farrow....not if you eat fresh, whole foods. And johnny it's evil stuff....certainly not bunkum about it poisoning people.

AwfulMaureen Thu 02-Jan-14 17:45:43

And I agree that it's shocking this....complaining about obesity and then churning out nonsense like this!

Bodypopper Thu 02-Jan-14 17:46:08

70s kid here and can fezz up to a bloody awful diet of sweets, crisps and fizzy pop( sold at infant school) moms dreadful findus cakes, angel delight and fray bentos pies!

Still we were skinny because we played out after school until dark, all weekend and holidays and weren't sat in our arses playing computer games.

Think we worry and blame food far too much for obesity.

Farrowandbawlbauls Thu 02-Jan-14 17:46:36

Awful I didn't say it was.

AwfulMaureen Thu 02-Jan-14 17:47:29

Oh right....I see ASDA TESCO and MARS are amongst the sponsors of this shite. list here

Annonynon Thu 02-Jan-14 17:48:31

Please forgive my stupidity about this but are there any spreads that are healthy? The olive oil ones or the spreadable butters? Or is it just normal butter that is ok?

Yanbu! I thought exactly the same. If it's aimed at adults, why the childlike animation and tone? If it's aimed at children what the hell are they playing at? The 5 suggested swaps were all totally insane for children - fizzy drinks to diet drinks, cheese to low fat cheese, butter to margarine, blue milk to semi skimmed and I can't remember the last, but equally as mad. I can understand why people might advise adults with weight problems to switch to low fat versions, but only for the purpose of weight loss. But for general health it's terrible advice, and for children it's absurd.

Farrowandbawlbauls Thu 02-Jan-14 17:54:33

It's the same as everything else as far as I can see Annonynon (love that name BTW) it's a matter of everything in moderation.

It doesn't matter if you use full fat butter because you shouldn't be eating anything that requires a lot of it. Have it on toast but don't plaster it on, have a little in vegetables but don't drown the vegetables with it every single time. Think of it as a flavour enhancer...

To me that's how it works anyway.

Solo Thu 02-Jan-14 17:55:28

Some of the cheaper 'olive' spreads have palm oil in which I won't buy.

AwfulMaureen Thu 02-Jan-14 17:55:31

Annonynon Which? magazine, says many alternative spreads contain harmful 'trans fats', which can be worse than saturated fats.
Somerfield's own-label spread had an average of 21g of trans fat per 100g, while high levels were found in other brands including Willow, Clover, Anchor SoSoft, Golden Churn and Pura Buttertaste.
Health experts believe consumption of trans fats should be limited to less than 5g a day. One piece of bread spread with the Somerfield product would account for 1.7g.
The Consumers' Association said: 'People are not getting what they believe they are paying for. Apart from that, spreads which customers believe are made mainly from olive oil are often nothing of the sort.'

MrsDeVere Thu 02-Jan-14 17:55:54

body I grew up in the 70s too.
We didn't have 24 hour access to food.
Food was eaten at home or at school. There was little opportunity to eat at any other time

The chip shop was about the only take away and it was unusual for a child to have money to spend on food (rather than sweets).

There was all that crappy stuff like findus and angel delight but the bulk of our diet was still made up of shepherds pie and chops and potatoes etc.

Our food culture is a million miles away from the way it was in the 1970s.

Now half the country has made it into a fetish and the other half seems to have no idea what it actually for.

As a nation we have an eating disorder.

Farrowandbawlbauls Thu 02-Jan-14 17:57:54

I remember on a thread last year a MNer discovered how to make her own spreadable lurpack.

I block of lurpack in a food processor with some oil and blitz until well blended.

If you compare that to another spreadable butter...there's a damn sight more added to the shop bought one than there needs to be.

Butter is after all only milk and salt. Add oil and you have a healthier spreadable version.

It works too.

Solo Thu 02-Jan-14 17:58:23

well said MrsDeVere!

Farrowandbawlbauls Thu 02-Jan-14 17:59:52

In the 70's there wasn't as many lifts, cars, escalators etc, which all helped in keeping the weight down. People in general just moved about more.

fairisleknitter Thu 02-Jan-14 18:03:23

I agree Mrs Devere and try to give my kids a 70's diet, including a bit off full-fat full-sugar stuff as well!

I even eyed up A. Delight in the supermarket but saw it had hydrogenated fat (i.e. trans fat) in it, so I gave up on that idea.

Bodypopper Thu 02-Jan-14 18:05:16

mrsD absolutely agree with that.

But you also have to admit that in the 70s we were a lot more active?

Many children now actually have NEVER been on a bus or walk to school or walk anywhere.

I went everywhere on my chopper bike. We didn't own a car.

Everyone was far more active than today and I dont mean in a daft gym fix way,showing off in Lycra,I mean generally more active.

fairisleknitter Thu 02-Jan-14 18:05:23

I also remember the shops being shut quite a lot and having to make do with slightly dull stuff - which of course you eat less of.

eurochick Thu 02-Jan-14 18:08:47

One of the Kerrygold spreadables is just milk and salt with some extra churning. They do also do one that is full of other ingredients though.

I like the mantra:
Eat food.
Mostly plants.
Not too much.

I think it says it all. I try not to eat non-foods (sweetners, marg, etc). I eat full fat versions of things and moderate the amount.

Since when did soft drinks companies and other large mutinationals have our best interests at heart? Its an unbelievable campaign.
I'm all for eating real food - real sugar, real butter etc. not dubious chemicals that you'd never find in nature. I dont mind eating a little of that but to base your diet round it?? Have they completely lost the plot?Incredible.

fairisleknitter Thu 02-Jan-14 18:09:21

Bodypopper you are right about changing activityk levels but encouraging families to eat low fat dairy and sweetened fizzy drinks can't be a sensible government initiative can it?

Farrowandbawlbauls Thu 02-Jan-14 18:13:48

I'll tell you something else as well the 70's had which would have had an impact..Home economics or cookery classes in schools.

We had them in the 90's but we didn't learn anything, DD's school does them but she's not learning anything either. We can both cook but that's only because we've learnt the basics from parents and grandparents then picked up a cook book and got on with it.

Not many schools do cookery classes now where they lean about making healthy home cooked food that doesn't involves opening a packet or jar at some point.

Bodypopper Thu 02-Jan-14 18:19:42

Yes agree above too. Re cookery classes and food being dull.

I remember the first wimpy I ever tasted at 16 and have to say it was fantastic. grin

Bodypopper Thu 02-Jan-14 18:21:48

fairisleknitter no agree seems daft to me too but think as I there's have too that it's big cooperations too close to government.

fairisleknitter Thu 02-Jan-14 18:29:35

Body I have fond memories of flame-grilled Whoppers..grin

I'd not be for banning burgers, or cola for that matter. But for this campaign to make out diet cola is some sort of healthy choice is immoral in my view.

I'm in Scotland so we have high obesity levels and they are expecting an explosion in diabetes. I was reading how it seems walking after your main meal can keep blood sugar levels stable in at risk older people. Now that seems a good message to get out to people go for a half hour walk after a big meal can help avoid diabetes. It wouldn't attract any corporate sponsors though. That's where a government could pay for a public health campaign!wink

McFox Thu 02-Jan-14 18:37:48

I recently went out for drinks with the head of a cancer hospital that I worked with, and the conversation got round to this subject. He totally avoids all artificial sweeteners, colourings etc and only eats full fat natural products, because as he put it "we just don't know what level of damage the mixture of chemicals that many people ingest every day is doing to their bodies." Note the use of "level of damage", not "if it's doing any damage".

I'd always eaten as clean as possible, and I'm very glad I do.

MrsDeVere Thu 02-Jan-14 18:41:18

Oh yes body absolutely. I don't disagree with that at all.
We had a car but most of my mates didn't. We didn't have a phone so you had to go and find your mates.
We were out all day messing about.
TV was only on for a few hours a day and only three channels.
We ALL walked to school.

Activity levels have a lot to do with the issue.

I do think that the way we look at food now is bizarre. I admit I am not a foodie so not very interested. People seem bloody obsessed.
Cooking programmes, thousands of choices in loads of supermarkets, people going on and on about food constantly, food shops on every corner, 'treat yourself' culture, even the whole retro/shabby chic thing seems to revolve around being able to stick on an apron and make a sodding cake.

I feel that there is a hell of a lot of focus placed on those on lower incomes buying burgers but the more affluent classes need to take some responsibility too. Just because that bread is artisanal and that cheese is £50 a lb and goes well with that lovely bottle of red from Waitrose, it doesn't mean its particularly healthy or its ok to stuff your face with it every night.

Or it is... I don't care really.

What I mean is that our issue is as a nation confused and overwhelmed by food and the sheer volume of it. Loads of conflicting and biased information has got most of us in a whirl to the point where people are just giving up and eating whatever is put in front of them.

MrsDeVere Thu 02-Jan-14 18:44:49

AND (I had no idea I cared this much) there is far too much emphasis on weight loss.

I think that leads people to seeing it as a short term chore to change their habits.

Diets don't work and they piss people off.

Farrowandbawlbauls Thu 02-Jan-14 18:46:40

I couldn't agree with you more about the diet shite Mrs I really couldn't.

fairisleknitter Thu 02-Jan-14 18:47:12

I just saw the Smart Swap ad on the sidebar thingy here on MN!

Farrowandbawlbauls Thu 02-Jan-14 18:48:03

Maybe we could petition/bug MNHQ until they get rid of it?

fairisleknitter Thu 02-Jan-14 18:56:46

McFox that is so interesting to hear a scientifically-informed view taking into account potential risks.

Official school healthy eating guidelines and now this, follow non-controversial "don't rock the corporate boat" style of advice.

I kept having to reassure my primary aged kids that fat is ok after school had done their worst, meanwhile over in the lunch hall they got strawberry and chocolate milk instead of plain.

mistermakersgloopyglue Thu 02-Jan-14 18:59:01

I agree that margarine is pretty shit, but scaremongering statements like 'its one molecule away from plastic' are just laughable!

SaggyOldClothCatPuss Thu 02-Jan-14 19:00:15

I hate anything artificial but sadly due to work lifestyle issues atm we do eat them. I am going to be addressing this issue as a new year resolution.
Anecdotally, and ive told this story before a few years I had a nasty injury and was pretty much house bound for about 6 months. Cooking kept me sane, and I discovered the River Cottage Cookbook. For most of the 6 months, we ate fresh meat, veg, fruit and dairy. One week I got through 2.5 litres of double cream! Given that I did no exercise and ate full fat, I was quite surprised to find I was a STONE lighter when I returned to work!

Farrowandbawlbauls Thu 02-Jan-14 19:00:40

It's not scaremongering, an exaggeration yes but most people would be able to see what the poster ment by that.

LittleBabyPigsus Thu 02-Jan-14 19:02:20

'Avoiding chemicals' is nonsense - everything is a chemical! Water is a chemical. Lemon juice is a chemical. Aspirin is a chemical. Many chemicals are good for us, even artificially-produced ones. Lots of healthy foods need some processing - extra virgin olive oil, olives (need to be cured), yogurt etc. Some of the 'natural' food proponents have no idea about science at all. Also some of us prefer the taste of diet drinks - full sugar ones taste too sweet and syrupy to me blush I don't drink them often though. However big business being involved in health initiatives is terrible but I'm not massively surprised.

I do agree with Mrs that the focus shouldn't be weight loss, it should be on being healthier which will then lead to weight loss if necessary. That would also involve a lot less body shaming.

Having more options for food and being aware of different types of food is a good thing - it's only since being a foodie became popular in the UK that our restaurants really improved and we began to lose our reputation for awful food, which we got from the bland diet rationing gave us. It's also a good thing to experience different cultures via their food. I find a lot of traditional British food quite boring and flavourless, and would much rather have a Vietnamese banh mi or Cuban barbacoa. I think encouraging people to really enjoy food and value it would do the world of good.

TheRealAmandaClarke Thu 02-Jan-14 19:10:34

Most sugary drinks also contain artificial sweeteners.

mistermakersgloopyglue Thu 02-Jan-14 19:22:14

No, the statement 'it's only one molecule away from plastic' means absolutely nothing. As has been said, water is only one hydrogen atom away from hydrogen peroxide, and oxygen is only one atom away from ozone which I am pretty sure ain't that healthy for you.

I do agree with the op though, all the low fat, sugar free foods really are crap and they taste minging! I have some left over diet come from Xmas tha we got in for visitors and I had some today to try and get through it. It is truly vile, I cannot fathom how anyone could drink it for pleasure unless they had just become totally accustomed to the taste.

TheCrackFox Thu 02-Jan-14 19:24:43

The more we have been told to eat low fat food and artificial sweeteners the fatter we have got.

Children don't need fizzy drinks (water from the tap is fine) and processed low fat food is pumped full of sugar - they tend to have the same calories as the full fat version but your body burns it up quicker and, therefore, you are hungrier sooner.

MrsDeVere Thu 02-Jan-14 19:28:45

Little but having 'good' food does not always equal healthy food.

Bland, ration style food may not be exciting but it was healthy. I think its fairly well known that we were at our healthiest during rationing weren't we?
I have nothing against people enjoying food. Just because I am not interested doesn't mean I want to deprive others grin

But I think people kid themselves that they are eating healthily because they are eating 'well'.

It has created yet another class divide and provided yet another stick to beat the poor with.

Lazy fat stupid burger scarfing proles who don't care what their kids eat v good decent hard working clean families who shop at Sainburys and Waitrose and love their kids enough to eschew Iceland.

That is not to say I believe that anyone who cares about food is a snob who hates poor people. I mean it as a sociological phenomenon rather than an individual thing.

I also think there is nothing at all wrong with seeing food as fuel rather than a hobby.

Telling people you are not fussed by food is akin to admitting you want to shag Barry Manilow in some circles on MN

I'm all for eating real food, avoiding (as a rule) "healthy" alternatives.

timid talked about only buying food your grandmother would recognise - I'm all for that, too. Except that my grandmother (born in the 1920s) used to make cottage pie from Yeomans mash and tinned mince grin

TheBigJessie Thu 02-Jan-14 19:34:29

Oh, I would have been able to see what the poster meant by the one molecule claptrap once. When I was 12 and hadn't done my GCSEs yet. I also read a book about plants feeling pain and believed it (what central nervous system?) and a book that claimed evolution was like expecting a tornado to rip through a junk yard and assemble a working Boeing 477. Nuff said. fgrin

Oh and she wouldn't have recognised quinoa if it blew about and bashed her gently in the face grin

SaggyOldClothCatPuss Thu 02-Jan-14 19:36:25

Its the dihydrogen monoxide you really need to look out for! It's in EVERYTHING! And it's SO dangerous! Just inhaling it can kill you!
But on we go, merrily injesting it! hmm confusedsad

NumptyNameChange Thu 02-Jan-14 19:42:07

it's. just. food.

all this classist and elitist and bizarre morality projections on it are messed up.

we need to stop obsessing and tell the whole food industry to back the fuck off with their nonsense.

i'm not great at eating healthily all the time but i know full well how to. i feel best when i'm eating plenty of protein and lots of veg and not a lot else. i eat a fair bit of crap too, late night sweet tooth attacks and occasional obsessions with takeaways. when i need to lose weight, feel healthier, improve my digestion or whatever i cut down on the crap - i don't looking for low fat versions of crap.

we all know what is healthy really and that is a simple diet and minimal processed crap. everyone knows - we don't need public information campaigns let alone public misinformation campaigns. if the state really wants to get involved in improving our diets they need to ban trans fats and glucose fructose syrup, ban advertising to children and force food producers to use decent ingredients and food preparation methods etc.

this idea that the poor peasants need educating because they don't realise that eating crap is bad for you is ridiculous and insulting.

NumptyNameChange Thu 02-Jan-14 19:43:34

johnny - my mother used to make bolognese from tinned mince and muligatawny (sorry i cannot spell that) soup grin

Bodypopper Thu 02-Jan-14 19:48:00

MrsD absolutely agree with each and every one of your posts.

grin Saggy Been waiting for that one.

Yet another one here who will happily feed full fat, full sugar to the kids, and tries to avoid artificial sweeteners and low fat. I've got a friend (also scientifically qualified) who thinks we should be avoiding glucose spikes, so feeds the kids sweetener filled stuff. We have discussed, and agreed that both methods have potential to be praised as good, and we go with whatever the general eating habits of the visiting house are.

All this low fat stuff - have you looked at the sugar content to make it taste nice? And no, I don't mean low fat milk in that - after all, back in the days when milk wasn't homogenised, we probably did add semi skimmed to most thinks - unless you got up early and got the top of the milk on your cereal!

Bodypopper Thu 02-Jan-14 19:49:10

Numpty yes also agree.

Farrowandbawlbauls Thu 02-Jan-14 19:49:51

I miss that creamy bit from the top of the milk sad. Cornflakes just haven't been the same since.

NumptyNameChange Thu 02-Jan-14 19:58:33

i drink skimmed because i don't like the taste of anything else - also with milk it's not diminished in the sense that there is just as much calcium in skimmed as full fat milk. i don't see it as a 'diet' food but a taste preference.

one thing that made me laugh recently was tonic water - the 'full fat' version and the 'diet, sugar free' version side by on the shelf had a difference of something like 3calories per 100ml in them grin total marketing nonsense but i wonder how many people actually think they are making a big difference to their lives by picking up the diet one full of aspartame?

MoominMammasHandbag Thu 02-Jan-14 20:09:29

In my business I have a lot of contact with some very gifted scientists. And I know one who's research proved that aspartame is very very nasty stuff. He was very much "leaned on", funding removed etc and basically threatened by one of the big companies. He couldn't publish.
But aspartame doesn't cross the lips of anyone in his family, and he seriously advised me to do the same

SpottyDottie Thu 02-Jan-14 20:34:07

DH won't have sugar free drinks in the house because of Aspartame.

also DS can't take sweeteners as they go straight through him!

SpottyDottie Thu 02-Jan-14 20:35:43

Cross posted with moomin

I've heard that Aspartame never leaves the body. I'm not a scientist and I don't know if that is true but for that assumption alone, I wouldn't want to have something that contained it.

PocketFluff Thu 02-Jan-14 20:44:22

Farrow - see if you can get milk delivered. I get a creamy bit off the milkman every morning. Fnarr fnarr.

Farrowandbawlbauls Thu 02-Jan-14 20:58:09

I've tried Pocket, we did used to have it delivered but he stopped as he couldn't compete with the supermarkets and wasn't getting enough business to keep going.

frankie4 Thu 02-Jan-14 21:00:28

Mrs D - I agree with you, as another child of the 70's.

I have changed my diet recently due to health reasons and have lost weight without even trying. I have started having big breakfasts, proper lunch and a big dinner of meat, potatoes etc. Lots of meat, milk, eggs etc but I have not felt the need to snack between meals.

Previously, I would have had cereal for breakfast, then a salad for lunch, then about 3pm I would start snacking on crunch bars, biscuits etc as I was hungry and did not feel satisfied. Then a small dinner, and then more snacks in front of the tv as I would not ever feel full. This is the problem today, and all this diet food is making it worse as people would be better off eating filling full fat substantial meals.

EndoplasmicReticulum Thu 02-Jan-14 21:02:42


"I've heard that Aspartame never leaves the body. I'm not a scientist and I don't know if that is true"

It isn't.

LittleBabyPigsus Thu 02-Jan-14 22:46:10

Mrs I'm under no illusions that 'good' food isn't the same as 'healthy' food, but I'd rather eat unhealthy tasty food than bland healthy stuff. Sorry. Taking pleasure in eating and enjoying it is good for you. There's no reason why food can't be healthy and tasty anyway - you can easily make healthy food tasty rather than bland. Sure we were healthy during WWII but we were also bored and it ruined our palates - and our restaurants went to shit and have only just recovered. Food that's tasteless and boring is pointless to me and I'd just rather eat less of the unhealthy but tasty stuff.

As for only buying food my grandmother would recognise, I doubt she'd recognise curry leaves or dragonfruit, but they are still not unhealthy foods! Eat food, not too much, mostly plants is a better motto to take on board. Still get to keep chillies and lemongrass grin

LittleBabyPigsus Thu 02-Jan-14 22:46:50

Meant 'I'm under no illusions that 'good' food is the same as 'healthy' food!

MrsDeVere Thu 02-Jan-14 23:25:57

Taking pleasure in food is good for you.
I am not interested.

And I don't get het up about it. Have never been on a diet and don't know or care how much I weigh.

I don't think about food unless I am hungry or am planning meals.

I think that is good for me

Sewing is good for me but I wouldn't begin to suggest its good for everyone.

Lots of people like ordinary 'bland' food. Yet again this is seen as some sort of failing. If we don't want to experiment, taste the world etc we are plebs.

Its all got a bit snobbish and I object to that.

I think its nice that people enjoy their food and want try all kinds of different things, keep fresh ginger and seek out vanilla pods etc.

I just don't think it makes them anymore interesting than someone who collects model airplanes.

Its just food.

Metebelis3 Fri 03-Jan-14 00:01:13

Anonynon Butter is NOT 'ok'. Nor is milk.

NumptyNameChange Fri 03-Jan-14 06:59:59

of course it's ok. food is ok. and we've been eater butter and milk for a long time.

half the trouble is they come up with something and it sticks in people's head oh that is bad for us, when that is debunked it doesn't get half as much attention,

re: there are still people who believe that eggs are bad for you and should be severely limited even though that was based on false science and it turned out eggs didn't raise the 'bad' cholesterol they mistakenly thought they did.

also much has proved that animal fats are better than some others that were considered superior not so long ago as they can be better received and broken down by the body and nutrients properly released.

oh and potatoes - potatoes became much maligned as fattening and terrible at one stage when in fact they're better for you as a starch carb than processed, refined carbs in pasta and also have a lot of nutrients.

all the obsessing over food always makes me think of the old 'while rome burns' adage. it is reminiscent of eating disorders in terms of an easy thing to focus on and be able to control obsessively.

yarn33 Fri 03-Jan-14 07:15:06

More conspiracy theories about aspartame I see. Has anyone been on to complain about food being made out of chemicals yet?

Metebelis3 Fri 03-Jan-14 08:57:44

Milk is bad for you. It's not meant for adult human consumption. Most people are completely taken in by Big Dairy. And then very very invested in mocking when others point out the truth.

Big Dairy and Big Alcohol have many similar characteristics (have you seen all the people going on about 'dry January' and how can they possibly not drink for one whole month? The real question of course is how can they possibly not realise that if it's a problem for them then they are actually an alcoholic).

Farrowandbawlbauls Fri 03-Jan-14 09:23:25

Soory, I've haven't heard of that one before. Why is milk bad for you?

Farrowandbawlbauls Fri 03-Jan-14 09:24:01


NumptyNameChange Fri 03-Jan-14 09:26:08

love the use of the word 'meant' there.

no, quite clearly it's not 'meant' for any human consumption, it's only 'meant' for calves. which foods do you think are 'meant' for humans other than breast milk?

something not being 'meant' for you doesn't make it bad. a small amount of dairy is not 'bad' for you - everything is 'bad' for you in some way anyway. a bit of milk is the least of our worries.

NumptyNameChange Fri 03-Jan-14 09:27:40

it isn't bad for you. it's just food with energy in it and some calcium and a bit of milk fat and sugar.

MrsDeVere Fri 03-Jan-14 09:31:25

Honey is meant for baby bees but manuka Honey is supposed to cure cancer ( hmm )

Humans have taken advantage of the food stuffs around them for ever.

What natural foods are 'meant' to be eaten by humans? They were all discovered to be edible rather than designed to be so, surely?

Metebelis3 Fri 03-Jan-14 09:38:00

The enzyme for digesting milk is lost in most humans between the ages of about 2 and about 7. The ability to continue digesting milk in adulthood is a genetic mutation which is found primarily in Europeans. Most of the world adult population do not have the mutation and can not digest milk.

The majority of humans can, however, digest vegetables, fruit, meat etc.

Big Dairy is as pernicious as Big Alcohol and Big Tobacco. And has an even more tenacious hold on the gullible.

The ability to digest milk is a genetic adaptation that gave our European (and other) forebears a huge advantage in the environment in which they lived. Call it a mutation if you like - it's no different to the mutations that caused people in Northern climes to have pale skin (and avoid vitamin D deficiency), or the even bigger ones that made us into bipeds.

fwiw I do have an issue with the vast scale of industrial milk production in the US and sincerely hope that we resist it here.

devilinside Fri 03-Jan-14 09:52:17

The average North European will be able to tolerate milk, we've evolved to do so, over hundreds of years. I would rather wage my war against sugar and processed foods

Farrowandbawlbauls Fri 03-Jan-14 09:57:49

I agree with you on that, there's bigger issues with food that need to be delt with first, sugar and processed foods (including the low fat, low sugar stuff) being the main one.

MrsDeVere Fri 03-Jan-14 09:59:58

But I CAN digest milk and so can all of my family. My OH and children are not European.

So even though we may all be mutants it is not a mutation that is troublesome or dangerous.

Evolution is supposed to do that isn't it?

I genuinely do not understand how milk is not for human consumption when it is being consumed with no problems by millions of people for thousands of years.

Surely we would have died out by now?

MrsDeVere Fri 03-Jan-14 10:01:11

I agree with concerns about massive milk production at the expense of the animals though.

NumptyNameChange Fri 03-Jan-14 10:04:38

we wouldn't be here without mutations ffs.

to say well if we didn't drink it past 7 we wouldn't be able to drink it past 7 rouses a great big so what for me.

HoratiaDrelincourt Fri 03-Jan-14 10:13:01

Yes, the point about milk is that if you ate it for the first time in ten years you wouldn't be able to digest it - but you can eat other foods for the first time without problems, generally speaking.

That milk line is vegan orthodoxy. I used to believe it too smile

Clearly we can digest milk. As others have said, if it's a genetic mutation, that's perfectly normal, it happens. Milk is a useful source of calcium, protein and fat. Fine in moderation.

Farrowandbawlbauls Fri 03-Jan-14 10:24:18

* Fine in moderation.* Like everything else that is availabe to us.

Assuming you are taking regular exercise, as long as you don't go overboard and stuff yourself silly with one particular thing or group of things every day, you should be able to maintain a healthy weight.

Metebelis3 Fri 03-Jan-14 10:40:33

devil I'm certainly no advocate for sugar or processed foods (well. If I'm an advocate for anything, it's marmite. Which is I suppose processed). But why would you make such a bold and illogical statement if you hadn't been influenced by Big Dairy?

I am as it happens a vegan but I haven't (and won't) criticize meat eating in this thread or claim that humans aren't physiologically adapted to eat meat. Because coearly, to some extent, we are. I am allergic to milk (properly, immune system allergic, not the more usual lactose intolerant). I have been since very very early childhood (possibly since birth but more likely frm around 1 year old). As a result of this, I pay rather more attention to milk and attitudes towards it than most people for whom it's not a potentially life threatening substance. The pervasive influence of Big Dairy is very obvious to me, it is extremely similar to the way Big Alocohol works - anyone who challenges dairy is portrayed as a nutter, just as anyone who challenges alcohol is portrayed as either mad or a killjoy. For all that people criticize Big Junk Food you don't see people who are opposed to sugar or salt or hamburgers etc portrayed in the same way. And yet, the human body does actually need a level of sugar salt and protein, whereas it does not need milk or alcohol.

EndoplasmicReticulum Fri 03-Jan-14 11:00:10

The human body does not need milk (once weaned), but it is a source of protein, fat, carbohydrates, minerals.

I have the mutation that allows me to digest it, so I do. Also black tea isn't very nice.

No conspiracy there.

It is interesting how many people don't know how milk is produced though. I have taught otherwise intelligent students who don't realise that the cow has to have a calf before milk is produced, they just think grass goes in one end and milk comes out the other.....

mistermakersgloopyglue Fri 03-Jan-14 11:46:54

metebelis have you been reading the 'juice master' (Jason something)'s book. It came with a juicer I once bought and was just so full of baloney about, among other things dairy, it was hilarious!

Agree you can't use the 'don't eat anything your great grandmother wouldn't recognise' as a rule. MIL (born in the mid 40s) is always going on about the 'exotic' foods that are available to us now, including pasta, bananas and......yoghurt (her favourite one to go on about!)

happytalk13 Fri 03-Jan-14 11:51:38

YANBU - this is about as educational on nutrition as a trip to Willy Wonkas. The focus should be on portion sizing, pictures of what a reasonable plate looks like, and eating things that have been messed about with as little as possible.

Metebelis3 Fri 03-Jan-14 11:54:01

mister good god no. I don't own, and nor would I ever want to own, a juicer.

Most people who have experienced severe allergic reactions to diary don't find the whole subject hilarious, mind you. Certainly not as hilarious as the thought of buying a juicer.

happytalk13 Fri 03-Jan-14 11:56:57

And if there is anything that should be focused on, on top of that, is eating a diet that controls our insulin levels - fat isn't the enemy in that equation, it's simple carbs eaten in excess and on their own with nothing to help slow the blood sugar rise. |Telling your average Joe to eat les sugar isn't enough - they need to be taught about the carbohydrate loads of meals, hidden sugars, sensible nutritious swaps (not ff coke for diet coke) that sort of thing.

MrsDeVere Fri 03-Jan-14 12:00:10

Of course allergies to dairy are not funny.
But they don't mean that humans can't drink milk
They mean that some humans can't drink milk.

My DD had severe reactions to blood transfusions. Now that is something evolution never thought would happen.
But the only people saying that humans are not meant to have blood transfusions and therefore shouldn't are bonkers.

Weetabixwife Fri 03-Jan-14 12:05:23

DH is a food scientist so does have informed opinions around fats, sweeteners etc.

So I have asked him what he thinks.

He won't touch aspartame with a barge pole.

He hates all this sugar and fats are bad for you, they are only bad for you if you have too much. This always enrages him.

The body is so complex there will be aspects that have not been studied, we have no way of knowing long term effects. We don't need fizzy drinks.

NumptyNameChange Fri 03-Jan-14 12:12:02

alcohol isn't wholly bad for you either.

i don't think the 'average joe' needs lecturing on food AT ALL personally. it's fucking food! jesus! the sooner we stop wasting money and energy treating it like a moral crusade or seeing ourselves as nutrition missionaries to the proles the better.

NumptyNameChange Fri 03-Jan-14 12:13:15

incidentally i've read some awful things about soya and health, not to mention how devastating it's growth is to ecosystems so anyone reading this and thinking they'll switch to soya products might want to do a bit of research first.

sunshinemmum Fri 03-Jan-14 12:15:29

YANBU, aspartame is truly awful and the nutritionist I saw said that low fat spreads are chemically altered, so you'd be better having a bit o butter.

happytalk13 Fri 03-Jan-14 12:20:08

Numpty, food can kill you. People do need education on food. Not educating people on food costs money too. (And why are you equating soya to a healthy diet?)

A lot of people do not know what a healthy balanced diet looks like. At least give them the information so they can eat well if they choose to and possibly save the NHS some money.

wonkylegs Fri 03-Jan-14 12:23:10

Portion control would be a better campaign as I think most people really don't understand this.
DS was declared overweight in the school weighing programme and I was sent a change 4 life leaflet suggesting changes to his diet. It generally advocated a slightly less healthy diet than DS already has.
DS is a ridiculously skinny 5yo who is most definitely not overweight which if the programme had any human input would have picked up.
The problem is that these public health campaigns are aimed at hitting the very bottom levels of understanding/diet/education so seem stupid when applied to average or better.

mistermakersgloopyglue Fri 03-Jan-14 12:23:46

mete where did I say that people with severe allergies to dairy was funny? hmm

yarn33 Fri 03-Jan-14 12:27:18

Pretty much any food that isn't eaten straight from the field is chemically altered. Food, and everything else, including you, is made of 100% chemicals. Any 'expert' who starts tutting and going "ooooo chemicals" really shouldn't be awarded any credibility.

BTW if anybody wants to link any credible studies that prove aspartame is unsafe please feel free (ps - there aren't any).

happytalk13 Fri 03-Jan-14 13:04:31

Are there any credible studies regarding the insulin response to sugar free drinks?

DoJo Fri 03-Jan-14 13:05:33

Weetabixwife What does your husband think about the report from the European Food Safety Authority showing that Aspartame is safe?

NumptyNameChange Fri 03-Jan-14 13:14:52

yes those stupid poor people need educating don't you know - they're so stupid they will kill themselves eating the wrong things and hey, here's the latest moral weapon, cost the nhs money! not only poor and stupid but also selfish and feckless.

the last ten or twenty years have been an endless healthy eating public information campaign anyone who doesn't know enough by now doesn't want to know ffs.

honestly it's a wonder the human race ever evolved if we really think that even people today with wide arrays of food available, free education and tv adverts, health services, posters, leaflets etc etc etc are so stupid they can't feed themselves adequately.

happytalk13 Fri 03-Jan-14 13:27:37

Fancy some salsa with that chip, Numpty? grin

I think the numbers on obesity rates and diet related illnesses clearly indicate that information does need to be out there, good information. that doesn't necessarily mean people will follow it, but at least it's out there.

There's nothing overly moral about providing good quality information - providing good information is common sense.

NumptyNameChange Fri 03-Jan-14 13:30:08

there's is more information available and in your face than EVER - yet obesity is souring. that doesn't add up to ooh we need more information to me. it adds up to well ok, clearly the issue isn't information.

the amount of money we've spent on preaching 5 a day at people could probably have kept the poor in veggies for decades.

NumptyNameChange Fri 03-Jan-14 13:30:43

soaring not souring.

NumptyNameChange Fri 03-Jan-14 13:34:14

i do not buy the 'throw another leaflet' at it approach at all.

nor do i buy that when tucking into a giant plate of pasta the eater does not realise it's a big portion. it's not that they don't know it's too much it's that they like it and they want it - they might even have a post grad qualification in nutrition ffs. obesity is not exclusive to under educated people.

i think you'd need to look at over eating and obesity along with over drinking and drug use and the massive amount of prescription drugs being taken to get a clearer picture of why people are eating too much and leaning too heavily on food.

it's not like IQ has been declining whilst obesity rises or education has been lessening as the pounds pile on. the two don't connect

NumptyNameChange Fri 03-Jan-14 13:36:40

i'd love to see a chart actually that showed rates of obesity, depression and addiction plotted over time along with things like falling disposable income, rising costs of living, widening social inequalityetc.

Farrowandbawlbauls Fri 03-Jan-14 14:29:47

I'd like to see that too Numpty. The people that I know who have money have the worst diets compared to some of the poorer people I know, myself included in that.

SledYuleCated Fri 03-Jan-14 20:46:14

Anyone just seen the ad break in Corrie? Almost the whole break over to Smart Swap, with the Change4Life logo over ads for Asda fish counter, Green Giant and Actimel shock

Didn't think it would be so explicit!

PhallicGiraffe Fri 03-Jan-14 21:23:14

So much crap wrote on this thread, it's unbelievable.

Farrowandbawlbauls Fri 03-Jan-14 21:28:12

I saw it Sled. I was seriously thinking of throwing something at the telly, but can't...the old fat boy one I could have.

Then there was an ad about a fucking diet book free in some newspaper. I think I swore.

Like what Phallic?

happytalk13 Fri 03-Jan-14 21:31:25

Would you care to elaborate on exactly what you think is written is crap, Phallic?

Chunderella Fri 03-Jan-14 21:36:39

To make a sweeping generalisation like 'milk is bad for you' is total shit. Lactase persistence, which fortunately is also found amongst many millions of non-Europeans, means that for a significant minority of the human population it is actually very good for us. It allows us to eat this useful source of calories, fat and calcium. This is a considerable evolutionary advantage, which may be part of the reason it has become so common since first emerging about 10,000 years ago. Additionally, some of those who do not have the lactase persistence gene are not actually lactose intolerant. So they still have the option of consuming milk without suffering any ill effects: again, very useful for them. The fact that milk is bad for some humans in no way shape or form means it is not good for the us on a species level.

The nastier practices of 'Big Dairy' are an utterly separate issue, and should not be confused with the ability of many humans to consume milk and benefit from it. You might as well say that plants are bad for us because some big banana companies are total and utter arseholes.

happytalk13 Fri 03-Jan-14 21:43:31

Did someone categorically say milk is bad for humans? I missed it.

Farrowandbawlbauls Fri 03-Jan-14 21:44:55

Pretty much happy. Something along the lines of it's not for adult consumption or something.

AwfulMaureen Fri 03-Jan-14 21:57:02

Milk IS bad for humans...unless it's human of course. There's a study out called the China Study....I drink milk as I like it too much to give it up but I'm under NO illusions.

happytalk13 Fri 03-Jan-14 22:00:37

Source, Maureen?

yarn33 Fri 03-Jan-14 22:05:10

Well the Wikipedia page on The China Study basically says it was a study that says animal proteins are bad and people should eat a vegan diet. Maybe there are health benefits to that but it's a bit disingenuous to represent the study as saying 'milk is bad', since it basically says all animal-based food is bad. And a lot of foods are bad in some aspect, but you have to weight up the benefits with the downsides.

happytalk13 Fri 03-Jan-14 22:09:27

I've just had a quick Wiki - it doesn't mean it's conclusive by any stretch, the study received plenty of criticism, and lowering your blood fat profiles and balancing LDL/HDL etc while maintaining a healthy weight has also been associated with reduced risk of various "Western" diseases and is completely achievable with a relatively high protein diet utilising animal protein as well as plant based sources such as pulses.

Farrowandbawlbauls Fri 03-Jan-14 22:15:26

So again, they are saying, everything in moderation.

Chunderella Fri 03-Jan-14 22:16:00

Yes happytalk it was upthread, metebelis post at 8.57 today said just that in the first sentence. Obviously ridiculous.

Maureen I'm afraid I'm going to need a little more than that.

MiaowTheCat Fri 03-Jan-14 22:41:37

I have a child with a milk allergy (and we're not talking lactose intolerance here). I still find the whole talk of Big Dairy having some conspiracy to take over the human race just ridiculous.

Also ridiculous - the nutritionist the local Children's Centre got out to give a chat to the baby group about healthy toddler snacks and picky eaters... "picky eaters don't exist, food allergies are a myth on the part of bonkers parents - take your kid to a busy place so there are people on hand to help if you get into bother and just give them the food they're allergic to and see if they're ok, and the best snack for on the go with your child is a cooled boiled potato - just pop it in to boil as you're getting ready to go out, put it in a nice tuppaware box and then when your child is hungry it's cooled down and will be really yummy for them."

By this point I was struggling to keep a straight face and imagining a bombardment of boiled potatoes flung by pissed off toddlers hitting this woman on the head... ffs bananas and satsumas - ready wrapped and require no "just pop them on to cook" while you're wrestling a reluctant toddler into their coat, shoes, hat, finding where they've taken their shoes off and hidden them, replacing the hat they've removed by this point and then chasing them round the room trying to retrieve your house keys off them.

AwfulMaureen Fri 03-Jan-14 23:40:53

A cooled boiled potato! grin oh yes...a cold spud is REALLY tasty!

I don't advocate The China Study as I've not read it....someone I know well thinks it's the Holy Grail though...and he's usually a balanced person. However, I think anything extreme is to be taken with a pinch of salt. I like meat...and I always wonder why we've got such pointy eye teeth if we're not meant to eat it...wouldn't we have flat teeth like cows if we were meant to be vegetarian?

Chunderella Sat 04-Jan-14 09:23:53

It's not really a question of being 'meant' to eat meat or to be veggie, but yes we have teeth that allow us to eat meat. They're not actually as efficient at it as the teeth that really carnivorous species have, though. But we have them because most humans throughout history have eaten at least some meat, when they could get it. It's the norm. That said, it's possible to get all your calories and nutrients from a vegetarian diet, and lots of people do/have done this without any ill effects.

Historically, many of us haven't been lucky enough to be able to be fussy about the food we eat, we've just had to get what we could. In many times and places, it could have seriously compromised your ability to survive if you decided to opt out of meat (or indeed particular plants). There have been plenty of cultures who've done this, particularly in recent millennia, but eg if you were a caveman during a difficult winter you couldn't exactly give up red meat. Whereas now, many of us do live in a world where that's an option, particularly in wealthier countries. We don't really need to behave like our ancestors did if we don't want to. So I don't think it's a question of what we're 'meant' to eat, because we've evolved to eat a great many things. It's more what we can eat.

C3P0 Sat 04-Jan-14 10:58:44

Diet soda is a bullshit solution to the obvious health problems of conventional soda

fairisleknitter Sat 04-Jan-14 11:02:47

That is a pithy summing up C3p0.

NumptyNameChange Sat 04-Jan-14 14:25:53

there were never any such things as caveman. HTH

Chunderella Sat 04-Jan-14 17:37:02

No shit sherlock.

mindlessrascal Sat 04-Jan-14 18:37:05

I don't know for certain whether or not aspartame is bad for you, but reading up on it it sounds toxic... I switched to diet drinks as a teen and am honestly addicted to them- I tried to go aspartame free recently and had actual withdrawal symptoms. Stay away from the diet stuff. An occasional fizzy full sugar drink should be a treat, the diet stuff is definitely not all its cracked up to be.

MrsDarylDixon Sat 04-Jan-14 18:42:33

ugh I'm dreading dd1 starting school because if all this healthy eating tripe they peddle.

HoratiaDrelincourt Sat 04-Jan-14 18:53:10

yy MrsDixon - my 5yo is already muddled, having taken in the "fat and sugar are bad" messages but watching school have cake sales, and bacon sandwiches at Friday playtime...

I can safely say that 9 years of schooling have made bugger all impression on what ds wants to eat - don't fret!

fairisleknitter Sat 04-Jan-14 19:02:04

It depends what type they are Johnny, I have one who was oblivious and another who thinks teachers are god-like and has fretted over eating chips.

Rooners Sat 04-Jan-14 19:06:00

Well I don't know what to eat at all now.

I heard that vitamin D from dairy sources isn't any use to us as humans, and that vegans have more access to vitamin D through other means than people consuming dairy stuff do.

And then I stopped being a vegan, and started eating everything again - while my friend carried on and then she died from cancer, allegedly with a big vitamin D deficit somewhere in the mix...

and then another friend's sister, who was also a vegan, died of cancer in her early 30s too

I don't understand any of it.

Farrowandbawlbauls Sat 04-Jan-14 19:10:11

Rooners, I'm sorry for your loss.

The only thing I can advise is what we've all been taught before all this bollocks came about - everything in moderation. Make sure your diet is good 90% of the time and allow yourself that pig out every now and again, lifes too fucking short to be miserable about food and cut out all the treats and sweet stuff.

That's how I'm doing it anyway - and that includes Angel Delight (butterscotch of course though)

Womnaleplus Sat 04-Jan-14 19:11:28

Margarine is rancid (literally).

Sugar is incredibly bad for you.

Saturated fats are good for you and carry the nutritional value of the product. Monounsaturated also good. Trans fats are awful.

You can get all the carbohydrates you need from veg and fruit.

Wheat's as bad as sugar.

Eggs are really good for you - choose ones laid by hens allowed to forage for insects in the dirt.

Farmed salmon is a bad idea and is actually unavailable in Canada. Eat the wild stuff (much cheaper to buy frozen. Also often heavily discounted at the end of the week).

Think about what your food ate, basically. So, grass fed over grain fed beef, etc.

Much mainstream nutritional advice is dangerously wrong.

Womnaleplus Sat 04-Jan-14 19:16:48

Rooners, there's a school of thought that dairy isn't that great for you (causing an insulin response), and that the calcium and vitamin d etc in many dairy products aren't as bioavailable to humans as we are led to believe.

That doesn't mean we should be vegan though - I get my vitamin d though bone broths (aka homemade chicken and bone broths) and fermented cod liver oil.

I realise this makes me sound like some kind of weirdo and a health nut. I'm really not! But my reading over the past few years on nutrition has led me to a profound belief that we're getting this really fucking wrong. I'm sorry for your loss.

Womnaleplus Sat 04-Jan-14 19:20:09

Rooners, you may be interested in this blog, on one woman's journey from veganism to an omnivore diet based on the traditional foods I've gone on talked about above:

NumptyNameChange Sat 04-Jan-14 19:23:36

people often respond as though i'm peddling crack or something but i really believe in supplementation with good vitamin and mineral products.

fairisleknitter Sat 04-Jan-14 19:32:54

I am so sorry Rooners.

Vitamin D has been one of those health issues that "healthy living " advice has ballsed up. For quite a while the talk was about protecting from skin cancer but also lesser skin damage like wrinkles.

I spent my 20's slathering my skin with high factor cream whilst my parents went a tiny bit more wrinkly every year. I knew who was right! Only turned out the old timers were.. (Now they were always very clear that babies don't go in direct sun and burning was a no-no at any age. But sunlight and "fresh air " were necessary especially for kids, they had grown up hearing about rickets, and seemed to know plenty of people who were bow-legged!)

I do think stuff developed in the lab is not the best bet for us, so I avoid artificial sweeteners and marg. It seems sensible rather than Luddite.

partyhead Sat 04-Jan-14 19:36:29

One word - NESTLE.

Partnered with Change 4 Life for this campaign. Say no more...

Farrowandbawlbauls Sat 04-Jan-14 19:41:17

Pepsi and Mars too but that's all been said nearer the begining of the thread before it got ridiculous.

Rooners Sat 04-Jan-14 19:51:17

Thanks guys, sorry, I didn't want to start a pity party but I am literally kind of lost in it all.

Will take a look at that blog you've linked to - thankyou! My diet is rubbish anyway so it can only really be improved. smile

partyhead Sat 04-Jan-14 20:37:29

Sorry, I didn't RTFT.

fairisleknitter Sun 05-Jan-14 11:24:30

party it's a good point to repeat : this campaign is compromised by the sponsors who have products to push.

Farrowandbawlbauls Sun 05-Jan-14 11:28:17

Nothing to be sorry about, by the time you've read the thread you would have lost track of what you were going to say anyway.

Fairisle is right though, we need to remember who's actually behind this "research" and "suggestions".

Farrowandbawlbauls Sun 05-Jan-14 11:29:20

Sinister. That's the word I'm looking for. The whole thing is sinister, especially when you realise who's behind it all.

Tw1nkle Sun 05-Jan-14 11:34:54

I ended up having to have a brain scan because of the effects that Sweetener were having on me - believe IS poison!!!

Just Eat Real Food - it really is that simple.

I also follow the Harcombe Diet - and LOVE IT!

happytalk13 Sun 05-Jan-14 11:39:29

When the USA decided to re-vamp their food pyramid they had a board of people working on it from various nutritional backgrounds. They were very clear on what they thought about sugar consumption. Just before going to campaign members of the sugar industry had words in relevant ears. The result was a food pyramid that was very ambiguous about sugar consumption.

Farrowandbawlbauls Sun 05-Jan-14 13:10:22

God that's depressing.

Solo Sun 05-Jan-14 13:21:22

Tw1nkle I agree! 100%

happytalk13 Sun 05-Jan-14 14:46:45

Indeed, Farrow. I feel that it is entirely wrong to allow a Government initiative on public health be sponsored by companies that will have a vested interest in the information being handed out to the masses. But, that's how things go.

SaggyOldClothCatPuss Fri 10-Jan-14 13:36:47


coco44 Mon 13-Jan-14 21:05:15

what do people imagine is the danger of aspartame?
It is one of the most thoroughly tested and studied food additives ever and its safety has been shown to be clear cut

Solo Mon 13-Jan-14 23:51:34

Your evidence of this coco?

coco44 Mon 13-Jan-14 23:53:39

the FSA and the American equivalent FDA

Solo Tue 14-Jan-14 00:16:54

Don't believe everything you read.
So many big companies are in bed with the Governments of the world and money talks loudly...I certainly won't change my stance on it, will always make a point of not buying foodstuffs containing it and I will not be allowing my children to consume it.

CouthyMow Tue 14-Jan-14 01:33:17

So glad I'm not the only one who has to grit their teeth and explain yo their DC's that these adverts are a rather blunt instrument when it comes to teaching about Healthy eating. My DC's know about the neurotoxicity effects of artificial sweeteners, and we work on the adage that "A LITTLE bit of what you fancy is good for you" (in moderation).

We use butter in our cooking (or Stork when cooking for DS3). We use semi-skimmed milk for most things.

I'd far rather they had one sugary drink every now and again, brushed their teeth well, and ran around a bit to burn it off than fill themselves full of sweeteners that affect the central nervous system, especially DS1, as he has epilepsy like me.

I'm actually VERY intolerant to sweeteners, particularly aspartame and saccharine, the tiniest mouthful of food containing them, or sip of drink with them in, and I get a blinding headache and am vomiting, and I come up in hives!

EndoplasmicReticulum Tue 14-Jan-14 07:19:34

Recent news story on aspartame.

European Food Safety Authority. Trouble is, you can give any number of links showing this but the "oh no the big business are paying off the regulatory bodies" argument just gets trotted out again.

I would be interested to see some studies that show the danger, rather than just anecdotal evidence.

EndoplasmicReticulum Tue 14-Jan-14 07:19:47
flatpackhamster Tue 14-Jan-14 13:23:52


Recent news story on aspartame.

European Food Safety Authority. Trouble is, you can give any number of links showing this but the "oh no the big business are paying off the regulatory bodies" argument just gets trotted out again.

I would be interested to see some studies that show the danger, rather than just anecdotal evidence.

I agree with you that it isn't dangerous. The people who claim it is dangerous can be found on websites all over the place, also claiming that a UFO landed in their back yard or that the government secretly sprays chemtrails or that we're all microchipped or some old flannel like that.

Apparently governments - who we all know are crap and incompetent and incapable of doing anything without messing it up - are also simultaneously amazingly clever at hiding things that only a handful of internet warriors can find out about.

Saying that aspartame isn't good for you isn't the same as saying it's dangerous.

coco44 Tue 14-Jan-14 21:23:28

I would have thought the sugar companies had more clout than such as Nutrisweet.

HoratiaDrelincourt Tue 14-Jan-14 22:10:42

Coca Cola is far bigger than Tate & Lyle

Sugar is expensive in comparison to artificial sweeteners, that's all there is to it.

It wouldn't surprise me remotely if the outfits producing sugar and sweeteners aren't owned by the same corporations.

Don't know if anyone has mentioned this but the ad I've just heard on the radio suggests swapping sugary drinks for sugar-free alternatives such as milk or water.
Now I know you'll argue milk is not sugar free, but it does not have added sugar and is a million times better than coke.

HoratiaDrelincourt Sat 18-Jan-14 08:10:32

Well that's obviously better but many people will hear "sugar free" and go to the fizzy pop aisle.

true, and actually the link in the OP shows a can with "sugar free" written on it.
It may be that they've taken on this sort of feedback and started to change their ads?

ShadowOfTheDay Sat 18-Jan-14 08:30:33

are we all living longer because we eat more crap or despite eating more crap?

Sunshine, fresh air, no snacks and half of every meal veg/fruit based is the way we go here... food as fuel not instant gratification...

We're living longer because of medical improvements in drugs and procedures, because smoking rates have fallen, because deaths from industry have lessened. While our diets might leave a lot to be desired, fewer people are malnourished, and that has a knock on effect as a pregnant woman's health has a huge effect on the baby's health.
If you're considering life expectancy from birth then you also have to take into account the fall in infant mortality.

ShadowOfTheDay Sat 18-Jan-14 08:49:43

I agree - but those drugs are also "chemicals" we are stuffing ourselves with... and often contain the dreaded Aspartame too...

sometimes there is a bit too much hysteria... everything in moderation....

drivingmisspotty Sat 18-Jan-14 08:59:44

Everything in moderation, yes, I think that is OP's point really. Swapping butter for marg or coke for diet coke gives the idea you can have it all-no need to moderate your intake as there are these miracle 'diet' options. Unfortunately if it seems too good to be true, it probablyis. As previous posters have said, 'low fat' foods are often pumped full of sugar to compensate for lack of flavour and sugar is more dangerous than fat as spikes and crashes actually make us more hungry and more likely to snack on rubbish. And our bodies aren't really fooled by sweeteners. They know when they are being fobbed off and will seek sugar elsewhere.

But I do agree aspartame is not the devil, just a bit pointless in a balanced diet.

formerbabe Sat 18-Jan-14 09:03:38

Dreadful IMO. We drink full fat milk in our house and I will not be changing that. Full fat milk is 4% fat I think, so technically a low fat product! Proper butter is preferable to spread IMO, as it is at least a more natural product.

My children only drink full fat milk and juices. I would much rather they drink proper juice than sugar free squash.

I personally feel campaigns like these are aimed at people who live on takeaways and fizzy drinks and who are from lower socio economic groups.

Farrowandbawl Sat 18-Jan-14 10:09:54

I wish I could add more to my thread but you've all pretty much said everything that has to be said.

I think there is something very sinister in it, especially when you take into account who's funding it, it's ill thought out, sends the wrong message and is inaccurate at best.

The adverts STILL give the rage every time I hear or see them.

Solo Sat 18-Jan-14 11:14:36

They anger me too. I don't watch much TV, but I'm sure I saw (through the red mist) the ad showing encouragement to swap to sugar free alternatives.
My 7yo drinks water and tea mostly and occasionally full sugar cordial.

missymarmite Sat 18-Jan-14 13:39:58

Depends. If someone has health issues with sugar, are obese or diabetic, then it makes sense to avoid sugary drinks.

There is some anacdotal stories of people having awful reactions to sweeteners, but most scientific studies have shown that normal consumption of sweeteners has no demonstrable affect on the average person.

Personally as an overweight person myself, who doesn't actually drink masses of processed, sugary, sweetened or fizzy drinks anyhow, I feel the sugar is a much more immediate concern for me personally than a hypothetical reaction to sweeteners.

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