To not go on this holiday

(109 Posts)
theimposter Thu 02-Jan-14 11:58:26

My DPs family have been planning a trip away as a large group for several years. He has 2 kids and they have all been looking forward to it for ages. However this trip is really expensive and not something I would ever choose to do. I earn a lot less than DP and although my parents gave me a generous cheque for Christmas I am worried that I may need this money to cover the mortgage on my house as my tenants are moving out soon and I intend to sell it but it may take a while. Being self employed means an extended holiday hits my pocket too. I don't think it has gone down well that I said I don't want to go but even if I used my Christmas money I would feel it was a waste not using it to go somewhere I actually want to go and I resent that we have to go on so many family things and don't get much holiday time to ourselves without his parents etc.

His kids and family will be upset but even if he paid towards me going I know it would be put on the 'money owed' list and I don't like being in debt. He is very money orientated and sees what I do for work as not very important and even though I work hard at it I will never earn loads. He thinks I should do more 'womanly' tasks despite the fact that I also work long hours and I don't feel it is 'our' house as was very much 'his' before we got together. I am meant to be selling my house so we can get a bigger place together. He keeps dangling the idea of getting engaged at me but he just makes excuses about it and why he hasn't asked yet that put me down and really makes me feel quite insecure about our relationship. I feel he measures our entire relationship on money and housework and doesn't appreciate the many other things I have changed in my life or what I do for the kids as it isn't a measurable thing. Help.

Blu Thu 02-Jan-14 12:03:25

Er, no, don't go!
It is in effect him telling you how to spend your money...a bit rich when he also complains about your contribution etc.

I would use the time he is gone to re-assess the level of equality in your relationship and how it works.

I definitely wouldn't be giving up my hard won assets and pooling them in with his with this level of doubt and discomfort about money and sharing and equality.

Independent assets are a strong foundation for a woman - do not give them up for this man.

He puts you down, or makes you feel put down? Really - not a good basis for a relationship.

Sorry!

Mellowandfruitful Thu 02-Jan-14 12:03:41

OK, there are quite a few things here to address. First off, it is not a good sign for two people who plan to merge their lives, sell houses to be together etc. if one of them regards money spent on the other as to be "put on the money owed list". If you are really life partners, your money would thought of jointly and spending planned jointly.

How much do you do for his kids? Do you have kids yourself, and are you planning any (more) in the future? If so there are a lot of issues here to be straightened out.

brettgirl2 Thu 02-Jan-14 12:03:49

Move back into your house when the tenants move out? He sounds very controlling to me, sorry sad. 'Money owed list' hmm wtf?

CookieLady Thu 02-Jan-14 12:04:41

Leave him.

He doesn't value you and sees you as a means to end with regard to purchasing a bigger property. He has no intention of proposing to you.

You deserve better.

OwlinaTree Thu 02-Jan-14 12:04:44

Are you paying half and half for everything, or are you paying a proportion based on what you earn? If the kids are his and not yours, should he be contributing a bit more?

CynicalandSmug Thu 02-Jan-14 12:06:31

This does not sound like a health happy relationship, the holiday is the least of your problems.

bragmatic Thu 02-Jan-14 12:06:58

Don't go. Don't marry him.

JollySantersSelectionBox Thu 02-Jan-14 12:08:10

I think the holiday is the least of your problems.

I would be considering moving back into my house and perhaps letting the empty rooms to supplement my income for a while.

HaroldTheGoat Thu 02-Jan-14 12:09:00

Move back into your own house he sounds like an arsehole thanks

Er, sod the holiday and ltb. "Money owed" list? Fuck that.

He is using the getting engaged thing as a way of controlling you.

Seriously, he sounds like a tosser shock

FunkyBoldRibena Thu 02-Jan-14 12:09:51

Move back to your house until you find someone who does see you as an equal - would be my advice. Forget about the holiday - that's not your issue.

FunkyBoldRibena Thu 02-Jan-14 12:11:50

I think that's called 'unanimous'.

theimposter Thu 02-Jan-14 12:16:46

Thanks; I was paying him rent but haven't for the past few months as have struggled for money with my new business/teething issues with it and my part time hours were cut down also. I was planning on paying some of this back with my Christmas money. We have the kids at weekends mainly and no I don't have my own so it has been quite a change for me to having to think about them. I don't do a lot of things I did before we met as have moved away from my area and when we have the kids over stuff revolves mainly around them (rightly so). I don't like not contributing 50/50 but at the moment I can't. When the kids are here I am very involved; homework, cooking with them and if they are stuck for school runs I help out with things like that.

Cerisier Thu 02-Jan-14 12:17:00

He keeps dangling the idea of getting engaged at me

He is playing games with you and has no intention of merging finances or marrying you. Money owed list- this isn't a partnership it is a way of controlling what you spend your money on and making it things he wants you to spend it on.

Don't go on the holiday. Do take a long hard look at where you want to be in 5 years time.

ChasedByBees Thu 02-Jan-14 12:18:47

Yep, agree with everyone else. If he wanted you there, he would pay as a gift. If you're living together then finances should be shared and it's a really bad sign that he is so money focused (and finds you lacking).

Grennie Thu 02-Jan-14 12:25:44

It sounds like there are lots and lots of issues in your relationship. He does not treat you well. Think about where you want this relationship to go?

TheVermiciousKnid Thu 02-Jan-14 12:29:26

Ditch the holiday and ditch the man.

pictish Thu 02-Jan-14 12:37:18

The 'money owed list' eh?
Ok. He sounds like a peach. Or not.

My heartfelt advice?
Ditch the bloke, and the holiday with him.
Job done. x

pictish Thu 02-Jan-14 12:38:05

And what cerisier wrote as well.

daisychain01 Thu 02-Jan-14 12:40:08

Another one here supporting what everyone is saying that the arrangements and basis of your relationship sounds appalling, and I would seriously consider your future. No way would I put money towards a holiday you dont want to go on, gosh why ever should you!?

Be empowered, don't be beholden to anyone with a financial balance sheet, ticking off the sums of money held against you, you are worth much more than that!

Love the comment by vermicious grin

wine

NoComet Thu 02-Jan-14 12:42:30

He wants a house keeper and a weekend Nanny, not a partner or a wife.

I think you worked that out your self as you wrote your posts.

pictish Thu 02-Jan-14 12:43:16

If your tenants are moving out, please take the ideal opportunity to move back in yourself.
It would be the best decision you could make at this time.
Do not seek to marry this man.

'Womenly tasks' I ask you!

NoComet Thu 02-Jan-14 12:43:51

If you were really in love, you'd want to go on holiday with him, money would not be your first thought (it might be your second)

theimposter Thu 02-Jan-14 12:44:10

Thanks all for the advice; plenty of food for thought. I know I'm not the domesticated type but I was hoping if we moved somewhere more suitable for me to get my work done then it would cause less issues. I can't move back to my house as it doesn't have the ground space I need for my business equipment. If we did split up I'd still need to sell and move to somewhere suitable.

pictish Thu 02-Jan-14 12:45:09

Or rent space for work?

HaroldTheGoat Thu 02-Jan-14 12:51:53

Yes that's a good idea Pictish.

OP fuck him and his womanly tasks! What a prize nob.

Maybe give him a bit if an ultimatum knowing you have your house waiting soon.

Get rid of the man. He's abusive. He wants to train you into submission and obedience, and he will sabotage your business to force you into domestic service to him, while milking you dry financially.

TheVermiciousKnid Thu 02-Jan-14 12:54:19

Anybody telling me to do more 'womanly tasks' would find themselves on the receiving end of a good old womanly fuck off.

brettgirl2 Thu 02-Jan-14 12:57:35

Just an observation op you don't seem either surprised or distraught by the advice?

Tbh, I would never dream of NOT going on a family holiday if that was what DH wanted to do and would be really upset if DH refused to come away on a family holiday with MY family. However, your situation, as you have painted it in your OP does not appear to be the same thing. From what you have said, I think you need to reconsider your relationship with this man. He seems to under-rate your contribution to the relationship and as for a "money-owed" list??? Seriously?? I am literally speechless!

Anyone telling me to do more 'womanly tasks' would get told to fuck right off, quite frankly.

He doesn't sound like a particularly nice bloke to be honest...

HahaHarrie Thu 02-Jan-14 13:01:50

RUN A MILE. He sounds awful and the relationship sounds really uncomfortable. Don't sell your house. Look for someone who respects you and what you do. No control freaks need apply.

Ilovemydogandmydoglovesme Thu 02-Jan-14 13:04:51

You live together but you pay him rent? hmm

pictish Thu 02-Jan-14 13:05:23

Anybody telling me to do more 'womanly tasks' would find themselves on the receiving end of a good old womanly fuck off.
grin

ExcuseTypos Thu 02-Jan-14 13:10:31

The holiday is the least of your problems.

Do not buy a property with him, it will tie you in with him and you don't want to do that.

Take a step back and assess your relationship. Like others say he doesn't sound very nice.sad

pictish Thu 02-Jan-14 13:15:56

I know it would be put on the 'money owed' list

He is very money orientated and sees what I do for work as not very important

He thinks I should do more 'womanly' tasks

I don't feel it is 'our' house as was very much 'his'

He keeps dangling the idea of getting engaged at me, but he just makes excuses about it and why he hasn't asked yet, that put me down and really makes me feel quite insecure about our relationship.

* I feel he measures our entire relationship on money and housework and doesn't appreciate the many other things I have changed in my life, or what I do for the kids, as it isn't a measurable thing.*

Just to break it down into stand alone statements OP. If this were someone's else's relationship you were reading about...what would you advise?

scallopsrgreat Thu 02-Jan-14 13:18:19

WTF are 'womanly tasks'???

A lot of red flags as others have stated.

Run, run like the wind.

pictish Thu 02-Jan-14 13:22:15

He wants a housekeeper prepared to pay him for the privilege of being so!
Hilarious!

choceyes Thu 02-Jan-14 13:29:57

I couldn't live with some one who had a "money owed list". Meanness, controlling and obsessing over money is a total put off for me personally.
He doesn't sound like a nice man OP.
I can understand making concessions and compromises on where to go on holiday and as a family I think most people do, but I think the holiday is the least of your problems.
You are going the "womanly tasks" at home and paying him rent too. You sound like a lodger and an unpaid housekeeper IMO. Sorry if I'm wrong though.

pictish Thu 02-Jan-14 13:31:02

Well sorry - when I say 'hilarious' - obviously it isn't as the OP is living this.
I mean hilarious as in outrageous as in laughter could be my only response to him.
Didn't mean to be flippant.

theimposter Thu 02-Jan-14 13:38:38

No am not overly surprised by responses I guess. Our relationship is very up and down but when it's good we actually have a great time and get on really well. The only issues are money and housework. He is very thoughtful in many ways and is a good dad. I just get frustrated as I want to be closer to my friends and family and living somewhere that has appropriate space for me to work and that I feel is equal ground. I don't earn enough to rent a unit and I only need one ground floor room to work out of. He has said that because he is paying for both kids he doesn't want to pay for me also and I said that I am concerned that I will spend much of the holiday watching them all do stuff that I don't want to do. I have various friends around the world that I would love to stay with/ do something more cultural and not having kids myself I just don't see this planned holiday as relevant. If money were no object of course I would go but money is an object and seeing as there are lots of changes happening this year house-wise I just don't see it as prudent to splash the cash on this. Obviously I will miss him and vice versa but it seems the best thing to do and the holiday is really for the kids not the adults.

phantomnamechanger Thu 02-Jan-14 13:43:56

he wants you to go, you cant afford it, so he pays - that's simple surely?

but I have to say, I don't normally go for LTB but seriously, you pay him rent??? does he also pay YOU then for any chores/childcare you do??

this man sounds controlling and is obviously NOT ready to commit to you on equal terms. I am sorry, but it sounds like you are good enough for now rather than a long term partner.

if you really want a future with him fgs get talking about money, childcare, future commitments to holidays with his family, you time etc etc otherwise it will not last. The divorce thread thats going shows example after example of people who did not discuss these sorts of things, or whose DPs lied about their intentions, if you both have ideas of how you think it will be and these do not match up, its a recipe for disaster.

phantomnamechanger Thu 02-Jan-14 13:45:51

The only issues are money and housework.

and these are two HUGE issues, that cause rows stress and divorce

Peekingduck Thu 02-Jan-14 13:49:06

You've got much bigger problems than the holiday haven't you?
I must admit I'd hang on to my house and my financial independence if I were you.
A "things owed" list rings alarm bells for a start. Either he treats you because he wants to and you can't afford it, or he doesn't. In a partnership where the income is unequal the one who earns less can't be considered to be constantly racking up debt to be paid back to the other.
Red flags all over, as others have said.

sharkey1187 Thu 02-Jan-14 13:50:15

My exP sounds exactly like this. I was young and naive and I thought I was just paying my way fairly. Except when I couldn't keep up with lifestyle because I earn far less than he did, he helped me with money. By keeping track of exactly what I owed and ensuring I repaid every penny when we broke up. He also teased me with further commitments and he was controlling.

5 years later I am married to his opposite. We have joint accounts, he's put me on his mortgage just because I am his wife and not because I've paid my way in. We make decisions together based on our joint finances and not what he thinks we should do.

I know it's not as easy as saying ditch him, but trust me, it's hard and painful but the grass is greener. Just put yourself first and do what's best for you.

Laquitar Thu 02-Jan-14 13:51:07

If he doesnt respect your job and your income now thenwhat happens if you have children with him?

What if you only have a small income for maternity leave for few months? Is he goung to be upset?

What if you have a bad birth and a high needs baby and you can not do the 'womanly stuff'??

Do not assume that because you work from home you can work with a baby and no paid chuldcare. This is a very common mistake.
So think about these issues before you get engaged to him.

WooWooOwl Thu 02-Jan-14 13:51:13

Money is a huge issue. It affects everything, so it's not one of those problems that can go in a box and only make itself known occasionally.

There is no question that you shouldn't go on the holiday. Has your place been booked or a deposit been paid for you?

Sorry, but your DP sounds like an arse.

Peekingduck Thu 02-Jan-14 13:51:25

"when it's good we actually have a great time and get on really well"
When is that exactly? Can you think about the times when it's good? Is it when you are doing what he wants you to do, going along with his wishes by any chance? Don't hand over your independence to this man just for the sake of more work space.

theimposter Thu 02-Jan-14 13:53:38

I should add that we have both been running businesses from home. Not easy and I accept that my work can be messy and dirty. The problem is not having an area that is 'mine' as such so that I can keep it how I want and shut the door on it. If I were sat at home not working then of course I would do more round the house but I don't have time as have animal commitments as well as work. His ex never worked and he paid for everything although she did all the housework. I think that is where the issue stems from as I am very different.

pictish Thu 02-Jan-14 13:56:14

Money and housework are not the only issues.

His lack of regard for your job is another. His sexism yet another.

The fact that you feel that it's 'his' house is an issue, as it highlights his attitude towards you.

That he uses the potential engaement to put you down, keep you dangling, and make you feel insecure, is a major issue. He toys with you to get his own way. He'd marry you if only you were better, isn't that right?

Housework and money are just the tip of the iceberg.

theimposter Thu 02-Jan-14 14:00:37

I'd say 80% of the time we get on well. 95% of the time away from the house we get on well. He does do stuff for me that doesn't interest him so it's not all about him and he is great with DIY and car issues etc. I just wanted to put it from both sides- he's not all bad in fact generally he is very nice but it's just the totting up of money that puts me off. Having had a bad break up previously with my ex over our house I certainly don't want to be going down that route again.

pictish Thu 02-Jan-14 14:01:25

Not to mention that he measures your worth by how much cleaning you do, and how much money you bring to the table.
I think that's another issue. Quite a big one as well.

theimposter Thu 02-Jan-14 14:03:17

Woowoo owl only the accom has been booked. That is why the issue has come up now as flights and other tickets need to be booked

pictish Thu 02-Jan-14 14:05:48

I am only going on the things you have listed yourself OP. Those are your words, not my evaluation.

WooWooOwl Thu 02-Jan-14 14:08:26

I think the problem you describe where your DP seems obsessed over money and household contributions is probably quite common in relationships that occur after a messy divorce.

Men often come out of relationships worse off financially and it seems to make them want to control every penny they spend on future relationships. I've seen it happen a couple of times with friends and acquaintances.

theimposter Thu 02-Jan-14 14:09:28

Yes I know Pictish. It does help to write things down sometimes! Thanks for the advice all. Will remain to be seen what happens!

pictish Thu 02-Jan-14 14:10:16

I wish you well OP. xx

ImperialBlether Thu 02-Jan-14 14:16:59

But they made this decision years before you met him, didn't they? You weren't involved in that decision.

Now of course it would be nicer for them if you went, but it wouldn't be nicer for you. It isn't your kind of holiday.

That perhaps wouldn't matter if you didn't have to pay for it or if you had loads of spare money, but that's not the case.

Given the choice between spending your Christmas money on a holiday you don't particularly want to go on or on your mortgage, you'd be absolutely mad to choose the holiday.

I know you say his ex wife didn't work outside the home and did all of the housework but I bet he told her every day that she was able to stay at home because he was funding it. This idea of 'his' money isn't new to him.

In your position I'd sell your house when the tenants have gone and buy somewhere with the space to both work and live. I'm dying to know what you do, btw! Then I'd move into it and look for someone who didn't have his ideas about money and womanly duties (ffs.)

JoinYourPlayfellows Thu 02-Jan-14 14:19:56

"Will remain to be seen what happens!"

Please don't just wait to see what happens.

This is your life - live it. Don't just wait for it to happen to you.

Housework and money are the two biggest things to get right in a life partner - they say everything about equality and respect.

And as pictish has pointed out, you have a whole lot of other pretty big problems here too.

MadameBigToes Thu 02-Jan-14 14:30:22

A friend of mine had a partner who kept hinting that she might be getting a proposal if she played her cards right (he once actually said that shock) He also made her pay half the rent on the place they shared, despite earning vastly more than her, and despite the fact that he took up most of the actual space with his hobby.

After years of this and other crap she left - very thankfully before buying anywhere or having kids with the twat.

Please see this as a big red flag and treasure and guard those valuable assets you have right now. I would take a good step back and a good think before you tie yourself to this bloke in any way. You are not required to do "womanly" hmm tasks to serve any bloke and particularly not when you work as much as he does.

As for the holiday, it's to do with his extended family and his kids - you don't have any kids and are not tied to his family in any way, except through him. If you don't want to go that's simply your choice which everyone should respect. If he's putting any kind of pressure on you then that's another worry I'm afraid.

theimposter Thu 02-Jan-14 15:00:41

I am definitely not going on the holiday!

theimposter Thu 02-Jan-14 15:04:47

Yes imperial; they decided about 4-5 years ago before I was on the scene but it has always been assumed that I would come along.

ImperialBlether Thu 02-Jan-14 15:31:56

But that is their problem! The only way they should assume you'd come along is if he pays for you and if you are able to take the time off work.

It's not a holiday if someone else plans it but expects you to pay for it!

Personally, though, the holiday is the least of it. I don't think this is the guy for you, OP, I'm sorry.

DontmindifIdo Thu 02-Jan-14 15:41:31

OP - don't go on the holiday, once your tenants have moved out, move back into that house (or tenant it again and rent something smaller if you can't afford it on your own right now)

Date him for a while, see if things improve. But I wouldn't live with him. And certainly wouldn't financially tie myself to him.

Bloodyteenagers Thu 02-Jan-14 15:51:41

I wouldn't live with him.
I wouldn't go on holiday with him.
I wouldn't buy a bar of chocolate with him, never mind a property.

Instead I would be leaving him to free myself to find someone that respects me. Respects what I do to earn money. Who doesn't walk around with a calculator totting up my debt to him. Who doesn't plan holidays for me, without my input. And someone who doesn't want me for womanly duties slave

If this is what he is like and you aren't even living with him, I don't really want to think what he will be like living with him. The debt. The running around him like the good little quiet wife. Doing everything to please him. Walking around on egg shells.

ImperialBlether Thu 02-Jan-14 15:58:10

I've just realised that of course you are self-employed and he doesn't value your work. That is disgraceful. Doesn't it hurt when he says derogatory things about the amount of money you earn?

UnexpectedItemInShaggingArea Thu 02-Jan-14 16:05:58

Sorry OP but he sounds HORRIBLE!

He is very money orientated and sees what I do for work as not very important and even though I work hard at it I will never earn loads. He thinks I should do more 'womanly' tasks despite the fact that I also work long hours.

WTAF.

You sound lovely, surely you must know you deserve better?

YouTheCat Thu 02-Jan-14 16:07:00

Run for the hills before you end up trapped with this awful man.

NachoAddict Thu 02-Jan-14 16:19:53

Sorry to echo everyone else but I,also don't think this is a good relationship for you.

feelingvunerable Thu 02-Jan-14 16:29:45

I agree with all that's been said.

Don't go on this holiday.

I would also start doing things you want to do on weekends rather than offering free childcare.

His ex did all the housework, mmmm I wonder why she is his ex.

rookiemater Thu 02-Jan-14 16:43:22

I'm glad you aren't going on the holiday OP.

There are wider issues to be considered and discussed about your relationship, but for the here and now it makes no sense for you to spend money you don't have on a holiday you don't want to go on.

How your DP reacts to this news will be very interesting. My guess is that particularly if his DCs are going, he will be very keen for you to come along. Don't let yourself get talked into it - it sounds like even if he paid for your flights it would be with massive strings attached.

theimposter Thu 02-Jan-14 18:18:55

I think he knows that there is not much point me going (whoever paid) if I will not enjoy it. I don't mind paying my way as have always been independant; problems arise when social things cost more than I can afford or I have a large vets bill or car problem. Money is an issue although more so the past few months with my new venture. It's not like he thinks what I do is rubbish and he supports me by helping me at events it is just that I don't think he always understands that what I do is just not as lucrative as his career and that it won't ever be hence he sees it as a bit 'below' if you see what I mean. He praises what I do but doesn't always see that I am also working hard at it and have my own stress related to it much as he does at his job. The thing is we do spend lovely time together; we have had a lovely afternoon out today and that's what makes me um and ah. It's the living together part that can be the problem.

Mellowandfruitful Thu 02-Jan-14 19:52:15

Some posters have mentioned that generally people are hurt if their partners don't want to come on a family holiday - but for the purposes o the 'family holiday' (and possibly more widely...) you are not considered part of the family. Hence him saying since he is paying for the kids (woop-de-doo! What does he think everyone else in the world does, make their kids pay for their holiday places out of pocket money or something?), he doesn't want to pay for you. That is very telling and says he doesn't regard you as an integral part of the unit; he thinks of you as a sort of promising employee who might, later on, prove themselves worthy of a long-term contract but who's still on a trial period at the moment. How do you feel about being treated that way? Does it make you want to put yourself and your future in his hands, or does it make you want to back off and protect your independence and make your own decisions? I really hope it's the latter.

theimposter Thu 02-Jan-14 20:15:32

Good post... Yes I have found the whole thing a bit weird with the kids being made to save all birthday money etc to pay for entries and so on. It's not a cheap holiday like I say. Guess it's not my problem! I'm sure I will miss bits that I would have enjoyed but as you say perhaps he isn't that bothered about me being there either way. I shall enjoy the peace and quiet!

theimposter Thu 02-Jan-14 20:16:24

'Promising employee' ha ha that made me laugh!!!

You be crazy to buy a house with him without a full commitment, not a dangling engagement carrot.
He looks down on your work as it isn't as worthy as his, and pays it lip service and helps out slightly to make it seem like he's OK with it.
I get along 80-95% with many people but I wouldn't want to be married/engaged/or live with them.
Glad you aren't going on the Holiday, you should make sure to save your money and see to yourself just as he does.
I'd move back to the house and use a bedroom as work space if need be.

rookiemater Thu 02-Jan-14 20:43:26

Seriously - he is making his own DCs save to pay entrance fees, I thought I had heard it all. That is not normal behaviour. No reasonable parent would expect their DCs to use their birthday and christmas money to pay for a holiday - unless it's Universal studios I suppose.

Mellowandfruitful Thu 02-Jan-14 21:06:04

Yikes, I said the 'pay for it out of their pocket money' jokingly, but he really is doing that! That is a mindset of someone who is constantly adding up what everyone around him owes him and making sure he squeezes it out of them somehow.Even his own kids! However lovely he might be in other ways confused I don't think I could live with that sort of person. You can only expect a worse deal than his children, so where is that likely to leave you?

KeatsiePie Thu 02-Jan-14 21:32:17

Wait. He wants (1) you to be "womanly" in what you do for work and in which jobs/responsibilities you take on at home.

But he wants (2) you to earn more, and looks down on what you do for work b/c it doesn't earn as much as what he does.

I don't like the sound of him at all.

You do realize that (1) and (2) are completely incompatible?!? I am pretty sure it will be impossible for you to earn big money doing "womanly" work. Unless to him womanly work includes e.g. bond trading.

So in effect he's setting you up to never be good enough -- either you will not be womanly enough or you will not be earning enough money. Or, most likely, both.

theimposter Thu 02-Jan-14 21:43:55

Yes I have pointed this out to him. Perhaps he has some ideal that he would meet someone who is superwoman, supermodel looks (not me!) and can work full hours, bear children and keep house. As long as I have enough to be comfortable I don't hanker after expensive things. His DCs mum doesn't earn much so she won't be contributing to their costs for the trip. They went years ago (again as a family en masse) and he paid for her to go when they were still together but there is no way in hell she could have paid for herself. I think it is some way of teaching the kids the value of money but yes it seemed odd to me but I just put it down to how different families work...

MarthasHarbour Thu 02-Jan-14 21:45:18

From your posts i think you do want to LTB but what concerns me is that you have said that you cant move back home because of the 'office' space.

I get that, but is this the only barrier? If so i would leave, i know renting an office space is pricey but you say your work is dirty and messy - could you do it from a shed? (my dad has just bought a huge shed which is fab, loads of space for all his gubbins and for a chair and kettle). Do you have any friends with a shed or garage that they dont use? Can you condense your living space (ie combine your bedroom as a studio lounge and use the lounge as a workroom? - or vice versa; even just in the interim)

You sound like you are almost there, so don't 'not go' just because of office space.

As everyone has said - the holiday is the least of your problems.

Good luck - make 2014 a better year for you flowers

theimposter Thu 02-Jan-14 21:48:56

I need a work shop! And if it doesn't work out that is what I will be looking for; a house with a converted garage or similar. By the way he never married his ex either but they were wildly incompatible. I get on with her well and their break up was not financially messy as she couldn't contribute anyway.

theimposter Thu 02-Jan-14 21:50:19

By the way thanks all; I know it can be a scary place in here but your replies have all been sincere and thoughtful. I really appreciate it!

Flappingandflying Thu 02-Jan-14 22:22:55

Hmmm. The money thing seems established with his ex too. She bore his children but it is described as 'he paid for her to go'. Of course he bloody should have done. He's not good at sharing is he. However, I do think it's very simplistic to say LTB as he clearly has some good qualities. Could you move back to your house, still keep on the relationship but not actually live together. That way, if he wants you, he has to do some running. Could you rent out a room in your house and then perhaps rent a workshop using that money. It does sound stressful running a messy sounding business from his home and pehaps if you removed yourself from this situation you could distance yourself from his stereotyping and just enjoy the good things without the hassle.

theimposter Thu 02-Jan-14 23:26:08

The plan is that if we moved we would look for a place with suitable indoor or heated garden space for my work and better suited to having animals. My house should I go back to it just is impossible with the size and shape of equipment I have as the only suitable office space I have is upstairs and it is too heavy to get up there so whatever happens I need to sell up. I do feel the arguments over cleaning etc would improve significantly if these things could be factored in. I did the whole renting rooms out before we met and just got fed up of having other people in my house and dealing with dramas all the time. It just feels like a step backwards should we stay together but live separately iyswim

Lottiedoubtie Thu 02-Jan-14 23:41:34

I get on with her well and their break up was not financially messy as she couldn't contribute anyway.

You mean that she's a nice woman and despite sacrificing her career to raise his babies she 'couldn't contribute' and when they split he gave her nothing?

OK, I am never this poster but I have read your replies twice OP and I can't help think that if a woman wrote the following, she would be told she had a cocklodger...

"I have a BF who lives in my house, doesn't do a lot of housework, has a messy, dirty job that takes up lots of time and space but doesn't bring in enough money to pay for that space. He hasn't paid rent, which we agreed in advance, for months and wants us to get married but I'm unsure.

He is great with my kids and works hard but I'm concerned. He says he is committed to a family life but doesn't want to come on a family holiday. I would loan him the money but he doesn't want to have to pay me back. Plus he owes me all that rent as well. I just think he should either pay his way, contribute more to the household, or get a better job."

Having said that fuck 'womanly jobs'.

theimposter Fri 03-Jan-14 01:27:20

Good reply Mrs Pratchett; yes this is why I try to see it from both sides and realise my situation isn't great. The reason I have not been able to contribute to rent recently is because my part time hours were cut so this has affected my income. My new start up has had the inevitable costs involved with any new venture and it has been successful so far but I have had some teething issues with the manufacturing which has meant I lost money on some orders before Xmas. Like I say I don't think it will ever make me lots of money but it should hopefully continue to grow and make a reasonable income combined with PT work. My other original business has been difficult due to the trade I work in being pushed out by cheap online companies which is why I have looked to start something else working for myself to supplement it plus the PT job. That's not just me that's the current market I'm afraid; it's a dying trade. I will have plenty to bring to the table when I sell my house (more than DP has) which the plan was to combine forces so to speak. It's just a rough time at the moment and hence I do not want to owe money for a holiday that I've not been involved in planning etc. I know why he gets annoyed but it is a bit Catch 22 as all my money is tied up in my house and until he commits and we use our joint money to buy a more suitable house I can't do much. I am hoping my PT job hours will be increased again but I am self employed through them also so don't get holiday pay etc. I will be using some of my Xmas money to pay back the rent for past few months so will be a bit more on an even keel hopefully. I have looked and even applied for other PT jobs to supplement income even more but there is not a lot round here that doesn't involve weekends and evenings which isn't helpful for when we have the kids and I gave up a previous job involving weekends as he felt like we didn't see each other enough. Even full time work wages are very disproportionate to living/housing costs here so even if I gave up both my businesses and my PT job I would never match earning-wise what he does as his stuff is very specialised.

theimposter Fri 03-Jan-14 01:35:04

Lottie, they were very young when they met and she has never had a career as such. She is doing well enough now but he encouraged her to work rather than her giving anything up and paid for her car and various other things.

wouldbemedic Fri 03-Jan-14 01:38:58

I think he sounds horrid. I wouldn't marry him. How controlling and unloving he sounds. I certainly wouldn't pander to the holiday. His family is probably as self-absorbed as he is. Ignore it.

steff13 Fri 03-Jan-14 04:02:22

I'm having trouble wrapping my head around his attitude. And what "womanly tasks" are. Certainly if he wants you to come on the vacation, he would pay your way and not bill you for it later.

Have you billed him for the "womanly" tasks and childcare you've been performing? And don't forget mileage for taking his kids to school. Perhaps you'd come out ahead on the vacation. ;)

Bearleigh Fri 03-Jan-14 07:23:48

OP if you do stay living with him, have you agreed how the joint house ownership & finances will be split, give it sounds like you will be contributing more equity. If it is say 60:40, will he expect you to pay 60% of the mortgage? Will he factor in the value of your housekeeping duties? It sounds like his ex's contribution wasn't valued at all.

He sounds such a tight wad it will be a good idea to get it clear and in writing beforehand. In fact I wouldn't buy a house with this character unless he had committed enough to marry you - then all contributions monetary and otherwise would be taken into account on any split.

I am an accountant and well remember two clients who weren't married but had set up a business together. She hadn't noticed that he owned 90%, and when they split that is what he kept, despite her 50% contribution to a very profitable business... He was also very keen on money.

34DD Fri 03-Jan-14 08:48:38

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

UptheChimney Fri 03-Jan-14 09:25:38

Please please please don't merge your finances until after you're married. And I'd also be advising that you should think twice about marrying this man. He sounds like a sexist domineering twat, tbh.

But there's no accounting for tastes and we only read words on the Internet, so of course there may be a whole lot more to your relationship.

But whatever, please DON'T give up your financial independence. Legally, there is no such thing as a "common law marriage" and from what you've said here, it's highly likely that, in the event if a break up, you would find yourself royally screwed financially.

I can't bear to see it when women make themselves financially dependent without legal security.

MadameBigToes Fri 03-Jan-14 09:39:14

If I were you I would:
- sell your house
- pay him any back rent / anything else you owe him, so you're quits
- buy or rent a small flat for you, with space you can use for business, or another solution (eg rent space, get a place with a garden where you can out a big shed, get a place with a garage)
- leave him, or if you want to stay with him, insist on respect and equal terms and don't go any further until you get it.

Someone who works, you work, yet they expect you do do the "womanly" housework because you are a woman, is not a good option for a future and that's aside from anything else you've mentioned.

Also MrsTP, while I see your point in reversing the roles, I don't think OP should be expected to go on a holiday that was planned before she came along, that will cost her money she doesn't have and that is a "family" holiday i.e. for related people. If I was a single parent with a new partner (i.e. not the father of my DC) I wouldn't drag him on a pre-planned family holiday unless he really wanted to.

theimposter Fri 03-Jan-14 10:22:58

Not looking/sounding good is it... I am very wary of combining forces money wise. Particularly after the last debacle with ex over my house. Marriage isn't the be all and end all to me but having said that I do want stability and to know where I am a bit more long term and am starting to get fed up of people asking why we aren't engaged yet. His 'saying it like it is' and 'if you just's' is starting to get on my wick. Clearly I have some big decisions to make in the next few months. Not quite sure I have the emotional strength to go through it all again though.

MadameBigToes Fri 03-Jan-14 10:51:10

But you also need to consider if you have the emotional strength for a longer-term, committed relationship that also looks as if it could involve a lot of controlling behaviour/EA and possibly financial abuse - and which, since you obviously do have self-respect, you might want to leave eventually anyway.

If he's this controlling now, what might it be like when he's got you more involved and has more power over you?

I don't doubt he's lovely and you have fun sometimes. Controlling, self-centred people are often like that, or they wouldn't draw anyone in. If these types were out-and-out vile from the start no one would ever get themselves into a sticky situation with them.

MadameBigToes Fri 03-Jan-14 10:54:26

Why not have a chat in confidence with his ex about their marriage/what advice she would give you? Ask her to be honest with you, she sounds nice.

theimposter Fri 03-Jan-14 12:13:42

Thank you MadameBigToes. I don't really want to speak to her about it as it might get back to him and from previous chats to her I know she was pretty miserable as he was a total workaholic back then. She is less driven than I am so I expect she felt quite downtrodden. That's the problem isn't it; to find someone sparky and vibrant you often get bad bits associated to that type of character. I don't think I could live with a doormat type myself though and would rather have a 'fiery' relationship (within reason!) than a bland and uninteresting one!

MellowAutumn Fri 03-Jan-14 14:44:11

He wants you as chief coat and drinks holder smile at your expense ! Those places are horrendous if you are not a participant . I would also ask about your `lovely` Times - are they easy times for him because everything is on his terms? How about you ask him to spend the equivalent money and time doing something just you like?

pictish Fri 03-Jan-14 15:04:02

Being cherished and adored and treated like an equal is not 'bland and uninteresting' - stop telling yourself that it is. You're looking for pie in the sky reasons as to why your relationship is ok. His disrespect and lack of care is not sparky or vibrant. Fiery is generally relationship speak for 'speaks to me like shit'.

Andanotherthing123 Fri 03-Jan-14 15:12:42

An ex DP had a'money owed' list for me. He was a controlling knob and despite squandering 6 precious years on this dickhead I eventually dumped him and a year later found the love of my life who 10 years on is still as splendid as the day I met him. Dump him and free yourself up for better!

daisychain01 Fri 03-Jan-14 15:20:24

... am starting to get fed up of people asking why we aren't engaged yet

Um, how about they keep their interfering unhelpful opinions to themselves and butt out of your life.

Maybe they can get engaged to him instead of you, if they feel that strongly about it....

<mutters, hoiks up size 34A bosom>

daisychain01 Fri 03-Jan-14 15:23:32

andanotherthing

Cue "happy ever after" music, 30 piece orchestra etc. So nice fsmile

MellowAutumn Fri 03-Jan-14 15:30:11

''Fiery is generally relationship speak for 'speaks to me like shit'.'' Quote of the week !!!

rookiemater Fri 03-Jan-14 15:36:17

Theimposter - what age are you and do you want to have your own children in your future?

Stay with this bloke if you wish, but really he is not "good dad " material. Good Dads don't make their DCs pay for their own holidays, nor do they dump homework, cooking and lifts onto their girlfriend. Plus if you do have DCs you'll have all the fun of blended families to work out - with a DF who is busy counting every penny earned and spent on the balance sheet, whilst conveniently forgetting how much he'd have to spend on cleaning, babysitting, childminders etc. if you weren't there.

Tubemole1 Fri 03-Jan-14 23:23:19

Move back to your house.
Don't marry him.
He's as controlling capitalist freak.

TheFabulousIdiot Fri 03-Jan-14 23:45:09

There are red flags but I think it's odd that you expect him to put a roof over your head without contributing some money towards that accommodation. Particularly if you currently have tenants paying the mortgage at your house. There's no way. Would have been happy with my partner living at my house 'rent' free.

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