to think my dB's ex is a total bitch????

(187 Posts)
ginmakesitallok Wed 25-Dec-13 23:07:29

dB and his ex been split up for about 2 years, she was abusive. She always been very awkward about letting him see his D's, and although we've advised him to take her to court to get access formally sorted out he hasn't. So, today, Christmas day and the bitch wouldn't let him see his son. Happy for him to play Santa, but not willing to let him see his son at all. Am so oooo stopping myself phoning her and telling her what I think of her. It's killing him. How can anyone be so cruel????

Monetbyhimself Wed 25-Dec-13 23:08:49

Why doesn't he go through the courts ?

ginmakesitallok Wed 25-Dec-13 23:10:31

He doesn't want to upset her anymore, and thinks that if he goes through the courts and won't let him see his ds at all.

ginmakesitallok Wed 25-Dec-13 23:12:09

I think this might change his opinion though. Turned up there this morning and she told him that if he wasn't spending the whole day there he couldn't come in. He was working, emergency services, so couldn't stay all day, so she told him he wasn't allowed in.

Monetbyhimself Wed 25-Dec-13 23:12:21

He has nothing to lose by going throughs the courts.

let him fight his own battles? If he did go to Court, you phoning her to call her a bitch on Christmas day wouldn't make him look too good.

helenthemadex Wed 25-Dec-13 23:13:39

it up to him to sort out and if he was that bothered then surely he would have sorted it by now.

Im sure my wanky ex's family talk about me in the same way as you talk about her, Im equally sure they have been fed a pack of lies by the lying twat.

keep out of it is my advice and tell your db to get off his arse if he really wants to see his ds and go through the courts

ginmakesitallok Wed 25-Dec-13 23:14:04

Of course I'd never call her.

ApocalypseThen Wed 25-Dec-13 23:16:35

You do have to bear in mind that her version of events may not match your brothers. Family should not get involved in these situations - you don't really know enough.

ginmakesitallok Wed 25-Dec-13 23:16:43

If he was that bothered????? Ffs! He works all hours, spends most of his money on her house, drops everything at the drop off a hand when she decides that he can have ds, and has put up with so much shite over the last couple of years... He's not sitting on his arse.

ginmakesitallok Wed 25-Dec-13 23:18:02

Trust me, he is not the one in the wrong here

LineRunner Wed 25-Dec-13 23:20:47

He needs to get a contact order in the family court. And then he needs to stick to it.

Calling a woman a bitch is not helpful, really.

MincedMuffPies Wed 25-Dec-13 23:21:00

I always click on these threads thinking its my dds utter fw dads family... I'm sure he tells everyone what a bitch I am to.

It doesn't sound like a phone call from you would make everything better, though. Shame about today, but it's something she and he need to work out together, either through talking, if that's possible, or other routes if that's not.

ginmakesitallok Wed 25-Dec-13 23:25:20

A phone call from me would cause all hell to break loose! Agree that a contract order is the way to go. However, as soon as she knows that he thinking of court she'll stop him seeing ds until it's all done, and even then she wouldn't stick to any agreement.

helen, same with xp's family which is why I'm wary when it comes to posts like this!

ginmakesitallok Wed 25-Dec-13 23:37:45

Even the ex's family thought dp had made a good choice leaving her!

her story would probably be totally different though? He probably did make a good choice if they weren't compatible but if this is how her xp's family talk about her I'm not surprised if she's not all sweetness and light.

jinglemel Wed 25-Dec-13 23:42:59

How old is their ds? Surely it should've been pre-arranged anyway. If things aren't amicable, dropping byiisn't really an option. Maybe she didn't want their ds upset if it was only a flying unexpected visit

VelvetSpoon Wed 25-Dec-13 23:47:15

I'm always a bit wary of threads like this - all exs are mad women according to the men they were involved with. My XP told his family all sorts about me, my favorites being refused to let him see the DC and that I'd stolen money from him. When in fact I've never stopped him seeing them (only asked he agree in advance when they're coming back etc) and he was the one who ran up a £40k debt on our joint account while it was meant to be frozen....so I think sometimes it's easy to get into mud-slinging without knowing the whole story!

PresidentServalan Wed 25-Dec-13 23:49:20

Unfortunately you do need to keep out of it, hard as that is - he is presumably capable of fighting for his children, or accepting that he won't see them. I can understand your anger though - she sounds awful.

ha I'm sorry to say it velvet but stories like that make me feel a lot less isolated, I had to endure so much crap from xp's family and unbelievable lies and I didn't think other families like that existed! OP I hope your family doesn't drive this woman to have a mental breakdown.

BoneyBackJefferson Thu 26-Dec-13 00:03:58

Vampyre and Velvet

Unfortunately its the disbelief at posts like the OP that make it easy for nasty Ex-partners to get away with what they do.

caruthers Thu 26-Dec-13 00:05:11

Not allowing her son to see his father is shocking and it's not uncommon.

Advice him to go to court and support him although even with a court order she can still dig her heels in and snub a court order.

Be sure though that you are supporting him for the right reasons and not just because he's your brother.

Good luck.

She may well be a 'bitch' but we're only getting one side of the story and OP is understandably biased.

BoneyBackJefferson Thu 26-Dec-13 00:09:48

Vampyre

We only ever get one side of the story.

lunar1 Thu 26-Dec-13 00:13:09

Why would he leave his child there and not go to court if she is abusive?

NigellasDealer Thu 26-Dec-13 00:14:48

yes well tbh honest my ex describes me as a bitch who has always prevented him from seeing his children, and I daresay his sister swallows his story whole, (even tho in her heart she knows he is a lazy so and so)
while what me and the children remember is quite different - being stood up at train stations, phone switched off, him in the pub, being let down at the last minute etc etc.
so I would say that the ex wife in this scenario would have quite a different story.

On here we do but I'm all too aware that xp's family have spoken about me like this and I'm not a 'bitch'. And fwiw, it didn't go down well in Court which the OP's DB should be aware of.

jinglemel Thu 26-Dec-13 00:17:42

As another ex who is painted as a crazy bitch while their dcs father has voluntarily little input in their life I would say I see her side. If he didn't pre-arrange contact but thought it'd be fine to drop in, interrupt their plans and then disappear off again I'd say that's pretty unfair on their son

BohemianGirl Thu 26-Dec-13 00:17:47

He sounds a biut wet and weak - he needs to go to court and get access formalised.

He also needs to tell the women in his life you to mind your own business and let him deal with his own life shit.

SinisterBuggyMonth Thu 26-Dec-13 00:22:15

Shame so many on here are so eager to not believe the OP or her DBs version of events.

Some Ex's are vicious. Some are female. My DP's ex was, and I wasn't being fed a line, there was the bruises on my DP, the wreaked property, the vicious voicemails on my phone, the documented police evidence and arrests.

Custody went to Cafcas and now DSs is with us full time through his choice. At the end of the day, your DBs children, will start getting affected by this situation, for that reason he has to go to the courts. Her stopping him seeing the children BECAUSE he has gone to court really won't help her case.

it's also a shame that people are so willing to instantly believe it. If she was truly dangerous then he's just as bad for not doing something about it?

SinisterBuggyMonth Thu 26-Dec-13 00:27:22

Yes he should be doing something about it.

NigellasDealer Thu 26-Dec-13 00:27:50

and it is a shame to hear a woman described twice in one short paragraph as 'the bitch' - hardly makes one think OP is rational and objective, does it?

timidviper Thu 26-Dec-13 00:28:06

There are two sides to every story, sometimes the woman is more in the right, but sometimes the man can be right and I think we have to be careful not to assume that they are all knobheads just because some are.

My DB has gone through a difficult divorce but he and his ex are very civilised about their DCs. We (his family) have tried to support him to sort things out through the proper channels and with the best interests of the children paramount. That is probably the best route for you as well

LadyJx Thu 26-Dec-13 23:31:52

Sorry but if he is not willing to go to a court for fear of upsetting his ex then he really can't complain when she call's the shots.

I'm not saying it's fair but if I was in this position I would fight tooth and nail to see my child not just allow someone else to play god. He has options and you should both know that.

Sorry but it comes across as a bit like playing the victim here and then never doing anything about it.

Also, with your reference about phoning her. It is between your boyfriend and the mother of his child, by all means be there to support and talk through issues with your boyfriend but it is not your place to get involved.

nocheeseinhouse Thu 26-Dec-13 23:45:03

I'm an abusive crazed bitch, according to a certain someone. I won't let him see his son.

Sadly, the truth is I cannot force him to be a good father, and he prefers his own sympathy-inducing story to actually sorting anything out.

There WILL be 2 sides to this- support your DB, yes, but otherwise don't get involved. If he cared, he'd do anything (including court) to see his child.

DizzyZebra Thu 26-Dec-13 23:50:01

He should act as though it doesnt bother him. My DD lives with her dad (I agreed to it, he is an arsehole since) and i genuinely dont mind about chritmas. Seeing him when he realised he could not use christmas to blackmail me with was brilliant.

He should forget about her. Buy a load of gifts his DS will love and have a present day. I can promise DS will love it (Coming downstairs to a bunch of presents on christmas is good, But coming downstairs randomly to a bunch of presents you didnt know you were getting is amazing) and she will be fucked off her childishness didnt work.

In the meantime he should apply to court, Its highly highly unlikely he would not get contact, he has nothing to lose by going.

Mellowandfruitful Thu 26-Dec-13 23:56:08

Agree he should pursue it in court. He needs to be able to show his DS, even if things go pear shaped for a while, that he didn't give up trying to get proper contact with him.

fifi669 Fri 27-Dec-13 00:07:23

DP has something similar. He's been holding off court as he knows she'll stop the minimal contact he has at the moment and that terrifies him. I'm expecting our child, pretty sure she'll stop it when she finds out too! DP thinks when he does get proper contact she'll move away so she doesn't have to comply, she's already threatened to. sad

He plans on taking the bull by the horns in the new year. She's not a nice person. She called my baby a c* for starters!

MeMySonAndI Fri 27-Dec-13 00:19:59

I really wish I could hear the 'bitch's" side about this.

I know there are some nasty women who block contact out of spite, others who block it to protect their children and many others who do not block contact but whose exs find it easier to say the ex wouldn't let them see the children than to explain to everyone they can't be arsed about contact...

DizzyZebra Fri 27-Dec-13 00:21:55

FiFi - If there is a risk of her moving away to hinder contact (which as she has threatened to he has reasonable cause to believe there is) bring it up in court before she has chance to. I'm sure they have ways and means of addressing that in the form of an order.

ginmakesitallok Fri 27-Dec-13 08:52:01

Oh, and its my brothers wex, not my boyfriends. Thanks for the advice, think I need to advise him about court again.

oldbaghere Fri 27-Dec-13 09:00:26

Did he have an agreement with his ex to see his child on Christmas day?

I'm another bitch ex, in fact I have been called it for wanting to SWAP christmas day and boxing day this year. And yes, you heard, with a week and a half notice I DARED to ask if I could SWAP DAYS and have my children on Christmas Day. I was called a control freak. A Nutter. And my exSIL has had some very choice words to say about me trying to "wreck" her Christmas at short notice, and stop her being able to see her family due to the arrangements they had in place for Christmas.

Yeah. My side of the story is somewhat different.

LineRunner Fri 27-Dec-13 09:02:45

I'm a Bitch Ex!

<channels Spartacus>

bochead Fri 27-Dec-13 09:03:19

If she was genuinely abusive then he's no kind of parent if he's left his kids there unsupervised for 2 years. Think about what you are saying please.

Nowadays blokes have equal parental responsibility. However noone is gonna parent for em, they have to do it themselves.

This means that if a Mum is abusive or unfit they have all the legal precedents they need to take sole care of the children. Culturally we haven't got our heads round this concept yet, same as although the CSA exists the number of non-resident parents who don't accept the moral duty to financially support their own flesh and blood is shocking.

IF your brother was that concerned he'd have gone to court already to ensure shared care, or a contact order. he'd also have in his draw at home a prohibted steps order to ensure she can't just up and leave with his flesh and blood for pastures new. He hasn't done this, so I can only conclude he's lazy, don't enable him.

As the ex-SIL in you could be acting in the children's best interests by being a neutral 3rd party to help sort it all out. Have YOU invited the ex SIL & her kids to yours for an afternoon over the Xmas break so the kids can spend some time with their paternal family or is it easier to just bitch? If you want to take sides, then take the kids!

See my ex makes out even when he's speaking to me that I try and withhold contact. He has tried to goad me into saying stuff while he let his now wife listen, which backfired spectacularly on him as she heard some home truths about him.
The fact is I beg him to make a long term commitment to contact. One night every 6 weeks if they ate lucky is not good enough. Bit he has painted me as some mental crazy woman that expects the moon on a stick from him. Where as all I've asked for is home to be a dad.
It's too easy to only see one side.
There is his story, hers and the truth down the middle somewhere.

ginmakesitallok Fri 27-Dec-13 09:08:37

She was emotionally abusive towards him, not to the kids. She's not an unfit parent. DB knows that taking ds from her would kill her, he doesn't want to do that.

I live hundreds of miles from them, so can't invite her over.

Yes it was arranged he'd see ds in the morning before he went to work, she then decided that unless he spent all day he couldn't come in and wouldn't let him in the house.

She still thinks they'll get back together.

Cityofgold Fri 27-Dec-13 09:09:17

I think the OP has got an extremely hard ride on this thread. The exW agreed contact only on the condition that he spent the whole day, but refused contact if couldn't spend the whole day. This can be nothing but unreasonable. She clearly has not issue with contact, but wants it on her terms. How selfish. As to all the posters saying it is the DB fault for not having gone to court, WTF? The best resolution is a court process and he is at fault for not using it? Idiots.
The exW is being unreasonable and it looks like he will HAVE to use the courts, good on him however for using that as a last, not a first resort. Far too much anti-man nonsense being spouted.
Just because various individuals have bad experiences of some men, does not mean they should extrapolate that to include all men.

Thisisaghostlyeuphemism Fri 27-Dec-13 09:13:45

Do people really not believe that some parents deny other parents access for no good reason? It happens.

Tell your bro to fight her through the courts. He will have no money for the next few years but he should do it.

JinglingRexManningDay Fri 27-Dec-13 09:16:22

I'm a bitch ex too. I'm the one who took his child and refused to tell him where she is. I'm the one who blocked all contact,I was verbally abusive to him.

I was told that by his now ex dp a few years ago. Guess who's 'the bitch' now.

oldbaghere Fri 27-Dec-13 09:16:44

I do know that parents deny other parents access for no good reason. In my case, I am the parent who was denied this year for the sake of the court order. And yes, I asked to swap with 10 days notice.

Your brother needs to go to court and get access set down. And he needs to stick to that like shit to a blanket.

oldbaghere Fri 27-Dec-13 09:18:20

Sorry I missed a bit out. To me, I was denied access on Christmas Day this year (which yes, I asked a swap of) for no good reason. Yet to my ex his reasons for not swapping are completely valid. And to be fair, I was the one who was wanting to change and not do things by the court order.

In my case, there's a court order, so he's merely sticking to that and I have to suck it up. Next year is my turn for Christmas Day.

starlight1234 Fri 27-Dec-13 09:30:22

I think OP may of got a better hearing if she had not used the word bitch.... Sadly it is a common term when you do hear one side of the story...My Ex Mil told me she hoped my son grew up hating me as I didn't want my son to witness him been aggressive. she did apologise though in the end.

No one has mentioned mediation yet? this may work better....Also anyone stops contact for no good reason been taken to court is not one so anyone who stops contact through been taken to court is not doing themselves any favours and will be frowned on by the courts.

carrotcakeandwine Fri 27-Dec-13 09:30:36

I have to admit I was puzzled by the OP's comments that the ex was abusive, yet the father has left the children with her. And that it sounds like he just stopped by without making prior arrangements for visiting on Christmas, which would aggravate me as well.

bochead Fri 27-Dec-13 09:31:55

Given the god awful weather events we've had I'd imagine many working in the emergency services must have had their famliy Xmas's disrupted up and down the country this year. Your brother's ex is a bit selfish if she won't take that into account. From a child's perspective 2 hours with daddy and an explanation is so much better than no contact at all. I'm pretty sure any court or SW would see it that way too - noone plans for a hurricane to ruin Xmas dinner lol!

As a lone parent myself with a couple of stepkids I know first hand that you have to put the kids first, second, and third and that your own feelings often seem not to matter at all in a split. It's really hard to detach your own emotions enough sometimes to see the woods for the trees, and I think having a neutral 3rd party involved can sometimes make ALL the difference.

Having thought about this again, why doesn't your brother suggest mediation in the new year? If it fails, but he has spoken totally in the kids bests interests during the sessions, it'll only work in his favour if he does have to go to court.

If she's threatening to move (without REALLY good reason!) though I'd call her bluff and get a court order preventing that asap, bullying isn't the way to go for the long term emotional health of the kids and the quicker that sort of behaviour is cut off at the knees the better for everyone.

wonderstuff Fri 27-Dec-13 09:36:18

My db's ex limits contact, makes life difficult, he for whatever reason hasn't gone to court, I think that he's scared it will a) make things worse and b)cost lots. I think the worse of it is that the children (both junior school age) get to choose whether to see him or not, which isn't fair because they are disappointing her if they go and him if they don't. I try to keep out, I can't do anything constructive.

There are some difficult mothers out there, she refuses to talk to him, will only talk to my mum, they agree she has them Xmas and he has Boxing Day, she ignored my mums texts until Boxing Day morning, then decided the kids couldn't be picked up til 11, when dn decided they wanted to stay over with their dad she called them to make sure they knew they could change their mind if they wanted (she would come and get would expect my family to drop off), her partner slams the door in my mums face and refuses to talk to her at all when she drops off.

He should go to court, but he won't, best I can do is stay out of it, it frustrates me how much it upsets my mum.

izzydazzling Fri 27-Dec-13 09:50:03

OP, I read some of the replies last night and think you've had a hard time. You were obviously just letting off steam. I think it's unfair to demand both sides of the story - we don't do this for every other post on here. There ARE some nasty women out there, using their children as weapons, just as there are nasty bastards out there who couldn't give a shit about their offspring. What happened to your brother on Christmas Day wasn't very nice and ultimately it'll was the child who lost out and yes, if it happened to my brother I'd be angry too. I think you know it's not a good idea to ring her up and give her a piece of your mind though? It'll just make it harder for DB in the long run.

PS I am probably a bitch ex too, however I know that my ex can say whatever he likes about me but I have never and will never play mind games when it comes to contact.

carrotcakeandwine Fri 27-Dec-13 10:11:44

Sorry, but IMO the problem here IS that you're just getting his side, and ultimately it's not your business. If he wants contact (or more contact) with his DC, then HE needs to sort it - either through mediation or the courts.

You cannot do this for him, you cannot push him to do so. He needs to want it enough to sort it himself. I do not understand families pushing into this type of thing and making it more complicated than it needs to be.

My ex-MIL used to push and push me to give XH more visitation, who (in her opinion) wanted nothing more than to see his DD. She didn't know about his abusive behaviour or the fact that he said he wasn't interested in seeing DD, he just wanted to make sure when we separated that he got the tv and the microwave. hmm No doubt she would have had ready excuses for his behaviour. She told me I was cruel to deny him visits, and I finally had to tell her she needed to speak to him as he hadn't asked for visits (he was far too busy stalking me to worry about visiting his DD). He told her all sorts of bollocks about me refusing to let him see her and threatening to move away, so that she wouldn't question why he didn't have her for visits.

If he wants more visitation, HE needs to sort it. Stay out of it.

As a starting point perhaps he should speak to someone like Families need Fathers (not to be confused with FFJ). They are a charity that advise men about contact / parental rights etc after a relationship breaks down.
www.fnf.org.uk/home

moldingsunbeams Fri 27-Dec-13 10:23:42

The thing is abusive ex has told him family I ran up loads of debt, left when it was at its worse, almost got him evicted for rent arrears and won't let him see his children, apparently I also took everything from house.

I am however paying off thousands of pounds of debt he ran up in joint names and for the stuff still in his house (his computers and technology) left with the two outfits of clothes (all I owned) and a couple of dds things in a bag on the train so no ability to take anything, he has paid no money for the children in six years and has not bought birthday or xmas presents for two years. All my fault apparently, he can visit anytime but doesn't.

Funnily he told me all of this about his fiance before me and his ex girlfriend after me was fed the same lies and contacted me to say same.

So unless your very sure of the whole story tell him to go to court and stay out of it.

LadyJx Sat 28-Dec-13 01:31:52

I don't think it matters about sides. There is the legal side and if your brother won't go through it then I have zero sympathy flowers

LadyJx Sat 28-Dec-13 01:32:58

Flowers? Not meant to be there

MsColour Sat 28-Dec-13 09:02:45

I do wonder if those saying that he should take her to court have any experience of going through the court process.

Shonajoy Sat 28-Dec-13 09:32:56

Does she work? I was going to take my ex partner to court but ironically because I didn't qualify for legal aid, i couldn't. Tell him to keep a diary of incidents- of course in her world the not staying the whole day thing will be used against him cos she will just say it would upset the child. Hate bitches like this.

Shonajoy Sat 28-Dec-13 09:33:10

Does she work? I was going to take my ex partner to court but ironically because I didn't qualify for legal aid, i couldn't. Tell him to keep a diary of incidents- of course in her world the not staying the whole day thing will be used against him cos she will just say it would upset the child. Hate bitches like this.

BlackDaisies Sat 28-Dec-13 09:36:48

Another "bitch ex" here who is always wary of believing one side of a story. According to my ex I withhold contact and make up lies about him. (I don't) He talks about taking me to court (but in reality wouldn't) Anyone who disagrees with him is a bitch or mad. My side of the story is rather more frightening, but you'd never know that talking to him. I agree with PP that it's the language you use that would make anyone wary if they've had experience of this situation from the other side.

BoneyBackJefferson Sat 28-Dec-13 11:09:40

So many replies with "I am the bitch ex"

The thing is that other are posters supposed to take your account of what happened as the truth?

Why is the OP's account any different to what you are posting?

Would you be happy with responses of I want to hear the Ex's side?

Rufustherednosedreindeer Sat 28-Dec-13 11:13:42

mscolour I'm guessing not

I agree that there are some "bitches" out there and some "bastards", and that we only ever hear one side of the story, AIBU is the wrong place to post for advice but it sounded like the OP just wanted to vent

Honestly if your brother or sister was talking about problems would you really say "can't comment as I don't know her/his side" or not give any advice?

I say stuff to my family all the time about what I would like to do or say, it's just venting...I'm not going to do it

Rufustherednosedreindeer Sat 28-Dec-13 11:14:12

Cross post boney

SoWhatDoWeDoNow Sat 28-Dec-13 11:17:49

She may well be a 'bitch' but we're only getting one side of the story and OP is understandably biased.

Well, yes. But then again we always only ever get one side of any of these stories, but it never stops us taking things at face value with the all the apparently useless, selfish bastard men involved, does it?

nocheeseinhouse Sat 28-Dec-13 11:25:01

I've been to court. I wasn't expensive, I self represented. It was quite simple. The courts are keen to promote contact. If he hasn't done it, then it's not the 'bitch ex's' fault, it's his.

NigellasDealer Sat 28-Dec-13 11:27:15

thank you cheese my ex always whines to anyone who will listen about how 'always prevented him from seeing his children' but if that had been the case he could have gone to court. but he didn't. so what does that tell you?

BoneyBackJefferson Sat 28-Dec-13 11:37:21

Nigella

It tells me your half of the story.

I don't know whether your ex is or isn't doing any of the things that you are posting.

Do you see how it works.

NigellasDealer Sat 28-Dec-13 11:43:12

please boney you don't need to be patronising - yes I 'see how it works' do you?

BoneyBackJefferson Sat 28-Dec-13 11:53:39

I can see posters that won't see beyond their own narrow view point.

I know that you in all probability are telling the truth because I have friends that have experienced it.

I know that in all probability the OP's DB is telling the truth because I have seen to many friends who have experienced that as well.

Anniegetyourgun Sat 28-Dec-13 12:18:03

I think why this thread is different about believing the OP is because it is not just one side of the story we are hearing here, it is an outsider's view of one side of the story. People are not saying they disbelieve the sister's honest account; they are pointing out that unless you are one of the ex-couple you cannot and never will know exactly what goes on. If she - rightly, understandably - wants to support her brother there are ways of doing it, and nobody said she shouldn't, but (as she knows herself) ringing up the ex to give her an earful is not going to be the best move. If the ex is genuinely a bitch she won't care anyway - will just store it up for ammunition. And yes, vindictive resident parents who use their children as pawns in a power game do exist; I don't think anyone tried to deny that. What they're saying is, don't wade in with Size 9 naily boots to a situation you will never be 100% informed about. Tea and sympathy, great. Queueing up to heap abuse on the ex, not great.

mayorquimby Sat 28-Dec-13 12:24:19

I never see the same level of scepticism when someone posts about their female friend or family member being on the receiving end of emotionally or physically abusive controlling ex's

Thisisaghostlyeuphemism Sat 28-Dec-13 12:28:28

Agree boneyback.

BlackDaisies Sat 28-Dec-13 12:54:12

I honestly think it's down to the way you argue. If the OP had been full of upset for her brother and asked advice about how best to help him, I think she would have had different replies to her actual OP which had bitch in the title, refers to ex simply as the bitch, and asks advice about whether she ought to call and give her an earful.

NigellasDealer Sat 28-Dec-13 12:58:40

yeh exactly blackdaisies, it is all a bit Jezza Kyle show really.

Rufustherednosedreindeer Sat 28-Dec-13 12:59:50

blackdaisies agree with you except that I don't think she was asking advice re ringing and giving ex an earful

BoneyBackJefferson Sat 28-Dec-13 13:02:18

Is it really any different from the "my twunt of an ex", ",my twat of an Ex", "my bastard of an ex"?

and responses haven't just been, don't do it, which would be fair enough (and sensible) they have basically called the DB a liar.

And be honest wouldn't you be angry about someone not letting a member of your family see their children?

Rufustherednosedreindeer Sat 28-Dec-13 13:06:05

Agree boney

Might just spend the rest of the thread agreeing, lot quicker than trying to think of a nice way of saying stuff and then typing it

helenthemadex Sat 28-Dec-13 15:32:22

firstly it is not right to stop a child seeing a parent unless there is a real danger to the child, using them as weapons is so damaging to them and causes so many problems, I would never agree that this the right thing to do. Children should be able to continue a relationship with both parents

However I do think there is more to the story than is being told here, by this I mean it sounds strange that the ex would say no to the db coming and seeing his ds for a few hours if that is what they had arranged between them, did the db change his mind or the arrangements?

Other people getting involved and taking sides makes the situation worse and impacts directly on the child, how would the op's nephew feel to hear his auntie calling his mum a bitch? hurt and confused, she may not do this in his presence but he will be aware of her dislike and anger towards his mother even if he doesnt quite understand it.

Rachelicious Sat 28-Dec-13 15:39:48

If it were to go to court you wouldn't be helping at all by giving the ex a load of abuse whatever you think of her. Your db needs to man up and take it through the courts if his ex is being the bitch you're saying she is

LadyJx Sat 28-Dec-13 16:22:26

Your db needs to man up and take it through the courts if his ex is being the bitch you're saying she is

Agreed

IfNotNowThenWhen Sat 28-Dec-13 18:16:43

Another crazy bitch here, who "won't" let ds's dad see him. Not that he has asked. Or tried at all. Or called. But, you know. I'm a crazy bitch, and he's probably scared. Or something.
Listen, some people do use their kids against an ex, and that is really wrong, but do you know what? If my son lived with his dad, and I wanted real contact, I would be in court quicker than hot shit off a shovel. I wouldn't just be sitting around pontificating about what he might or might not do if I took action.
Sozza, but what your DB is selling, I ain't buying.

Thisisaghostlyeuphemism Sat 28-Dec-13 18:21:45

So if a woman withholds access that's fine and lovely but if a man hesitates to go to court - usually for fear it will get worse, affect the kids, or he cant afford to, then he's a shit.

Ok I get it now.

Rachelicious Sat 28-Dec-13 19:41:22

If he's scared that doesn't mean he should just sit back and do nothing and hope one day that is ex will be all lovely and sweet and allow him to see their kid. It doesn't work like that if you want something bad enough you'll fight until the better end to get it

honeybunny14 Sat 28-Dec-13 19:51:49

If it was a woman posting that her ex was abusive it would be seen totaly different on here i hope your db gets to see his ds soon i know alot of women who have made things difficult for dads to see there dcs just because they have moved on.

LadyJx Sat 28-Dec-13 20:05:09

If it was a woman posting that her ex was abusive it would be seen totaly different on here i hope your db gets to see his ds soon i know alot of women who have made things difficult for dads to see there dcs just because they have moved on.

Not really the same is it? It is a woman posting about her brothers past relationship.

mayorquimby Sat 28-Dec-13 20:19:24

No ladyjx but as I said above there's been plenty of threads about female relatives or friends suffering emotional or physical abyss or continued controlling and abisive behaviour from an ex that aren't met with "well of course that's what she'd say" or "it's hard to tell when you only have her word to go on"

LadyJx Sat 28-Dec-13 20:31:20

If it was someone posting about a woman in this exact same position I would say the same.

Seek legal advice, it is the only option in situations like this. If her brother can't be bothered or doesn't want the hassle of going through courts then I fail to sympathize with him playing the victim.

I would fight tooth and nail to see my child and I cannot understand anyone who wouldn't.

Lweji Sat 28-Dec-13 20:36:49

If she stops him seeing the children while the court process in going on, it won't look good.
It might even be better to apply for full custody for himself. What she is doing is abusive towards the children.

BoneyBackJefferson Sat 28-Dec-13 20:39:17

*If her brother can't be bothered or doesn't want the hassle of going through courts then I fail to sympathize with him playing the victim.

I would fight tooth and nail to see my child and I cannot understand anyone who wouldn't.*

very easy to say, much harder to do.

LadyJx Sat 28-Dec-13 20:57:28

Sorry Boney. Absolute nonsense. Not hard to fight for my flesh and blood. A million men (and women but more often men do it) and I don't have time for someone who wont.

flippinada Sat 28-Dec-13 21:12:11

This is a very emotive subject and referring to a 'bitch' ex is bound to get people's backs up.

Keeping this as neutral as possible - as someone who has been through the court process, I would strongly advise trying mediation first of all; only go ahead with court action if you absolutely have to, because it's hideously stressful (that said I would do it again if I needed to).

If an ex partner is abusive, don't bother with mediation and go down the legal route.

BoneyBackJefferson Sat 28-Dec-13 21:42:45

A mate of mine has been fighting to see his children for 6 yrs.
Another for nearly 10.
just recently a friend has lost the case to keep his children in the country. He will get 5 wks per year. (if she allows them on the plane)

easy to say, very hard to do and keep doing.

All of this very easy and cheap to represent yourself stuff is rubbish and a very simplistic view of the system.

Yes there are free advocates but there are a whole host of issues that Ex's can put in the way.

Why do people always do this 'if this was woman/man etc' crap? Either way, I would be unconvinced. If you're prepared to believe one side of the story that isn't even being told by any person directly involved then more fool you, that is narrow-minded. The amount of 'mad bitch exes' on this thread speak for themselves. Also, why the hell is it so hard to 'fight tooth and nail'? I've been there, Courts are generally pretty insightful and fair ime.

BoneyBackJefferson Sat 28-Dec-13 23:59:48

"If you're prepared to believe one side of the story that isn't even being told by any person directly involved then more fool you, that is narrow-minded."

then you contradict with

"The amount of 'mad bitch exes' on this thread speak for themselves"

They are all one side of the story.

How long did it take you to fight "tooth and nail"?

people don't all have the same court experiences, your ex is different to other peoples, your story is different to other peoples is it so hard to believe that there are nasty women out there that stop their exes seeing their children for no good reason?

honeybunny14 Sun 29-Dec-13 00:02:44

It is the same the op said her db ex is abusive ive seen it time and time again on here women in the same situation and they get alot of good support. But if it a man its always somehow his fault ie not doing enough to see his child.

I'm saying that those "mad bitch exes" (myself included) indicate that there are a fair few bullshitting men who lie about not being 'allowed' to see their children. No contradiction. Thankfully, xp and xmil's bullshit was so transparent, it didn't take as long as it could have.

Not doing enough? Not doing anything by the sounds of it.

I am prepared to admit the experience has left me bitter and cynical.

BoneyBackJefferson Sun 29-Dec-13 00:41:21

Vampyre

I don't disagree that there are a "fair few bullshitting men who lie about not being 'allowed' to see their children"

I have seen it for myself, but I have also seen the other side of it as well.

the contradiction isn't that the men lie its that the one sided stories from women are on here are believed, it is still one side of the story, you have no way of ratifying whether they are real or not.

Lweji Sun 29-Dec-13 00:45:19

He got good support here. He was told he should go to the court, as any woman would have got.

I also remember instances where women were challenged because they were not doing enough to protect their children. Even to be in contact with them.

It's the people who pull up the "if it was a man" or "if it was a woman" who often seem biased.

mayorquimby Sun 29-Dec-13 04:06:09

"Seek legal advice, it is the only option in situations like this. If her brother can't be bothered or doesn't want the hassle of going through courts then I fail to sympathize with him playing the victim."

I look forward to the same advice being given in respect of a victim who doesn't feel she can go to the police or pursue proper channels due to her circumstances.

I'm sure everyone will be telling them to "man up" and go to the courts or else they don't care enough for it to matter

MeMySonAndI Sun 29-Dec-13 05:25:09

Well, I'm another controlling abusive bitch of an ex, interestingly I was the one who the police referred for victim support, which made wonders for my self esteem and gave me the strength to cope with my ex's abusive behaviour.

He has been claiming for years I don't allow him to see his child, he even cry to people about this sorry business. The truth is that he has ignored every single offer to increase contact, all invitations to attend mediation to re-establish it, and every invitation he has got to join in during DS's important days has only attracted more abuse from him towards DS.

If this was not enough, he hurt DS so much when he had contact that DS needed counseling, neglected his health to the point the GPs acted in their concerns, and did a couple of other more serious things that resulted in Social Services being involved. To round it up, he also claims he is being fleeced with so much maintenance to pay, but he has been paying less than half of what the CSA requires for years, despite having a very substantial salary.

But someway he still sees himself as the victim. (rolls eyes)

BlackDaisies Sun 29-Dec-13 07:44:22

I'm only going by my own story when I say there are two sides. Of course all the people on here could be lying or exaggerating when they say they are portrayed as a mad ex. I'm not lying. I don't care if people on here believe me or not (except on other places on the site where people have been kind enough to offer support and advice). I care that close friends and family believe me. The point is that experience can't help but give you a different perspective on this discussion, which is simply to be wary when the word bitch is bandied about when talking about an ex. I'm sure there are people whose experience makes them equally wary when women refer to their ex's in equally unpleasant terms. My advice to anyone, men and women, would be to disengage (as in not enter into bitter arguments) be polite and to seek legal advice.

Lweji Sun 29-Dec-13 09:47:11

Mayor, in similar circumstances the advice is to go legal. Always.

Different advice may be given to rape or dv victims, if they are not prepared to, but not by many pps. Most will still advise to go to the police.

Not sure what your point is.

My experience of a man who is not allowed to see his dc is of an abusive twunt. Who complains I don't let him see his child, but shows up unannounced, or is late for contact or doesn't show up without warning, or simply says he can't without asking for alternatives. Whereas between me and the child, we are on time, always give a warning and offer alternatives.
It's one who is more concerned about his rights than about his child.
DS has seen through him.

Not saying it's this case, but I always wonder about men/parents who are not prepared to fight for their children.
Like my exBIL.

MistressDeeCee Sun 29-Dec-13 09:51:52

Well if he doesnt want her putting him in this situation for years he'll have to go to court, wont he? Asw unpleasant as that may be, it isnt going to be anymore unpleasant than the situation he's in now.

LadyJx Sun 29-Dec-13 10:06:33

I look forward to the same advice being given in respect of a victim who doesn't feel she can go to the police or pursue proper channels due to her circumstances.

I apologize, I have lived in an emotionally and psychically abusive relationship with my alcoholic ex husband but I walked without a look back as soon as I realised how this could affect my daughter as she got older, she was 7 weeks old. I may not have worded it that way if her DB was the one who had posted. Either rightly or wrongly I would still think it. And the core of my advise would stay the same seek legal advice. This is not saying take her to court immediately, this is saying explore the various channels of advice that are available to him, find out exactly where he stands and what options he has. That way he can make a more informed choice.

Boney I know that court can be hugely stressful but in my eyes it would be worth it to see my child. I have supported a male friend through a horrific battle which ended in him receiving full custody of his two kids. I don't buy this "it's not as easy as you think" etc. I've witnessed other cases also and none which seem to reflect the experience of three friends of yours. Your account doesn't sit right with me. And FYI a court will only allow a country move if it's in the best interest of the child...

If this is truly the case for your friends, I suggest the next friend uses a different court.

PhoebeMcPeePee Sun 29-Dec-13 10:27:31

I too think the op (& he db) are getting a hard time & people just seem to be taking the MN default of all men are wankers hmm. Some women are cruel enough to use access to torment their ex's & would stop contact purely out of spite.

A close friend of DH's is in a similar position - separated from ex, refusing to formalise access in court because he's scared ex will get even more difficult about contact with dd & stop all contact with her eldest 3 DC who saw friend as dad & we're treated equally as if his own hmm

There is no doubt she is a complete bitch & (IMO) used him to fill a void/father another child when previous ex(s) also left the scene.

We live in a fairly small community, know her family (lovely), went to same school, children go to same school/nursery etc so our view is not just friend's opinion.

Op I really hope you can persuade db to go through the courts as nothing can be worse for parent or child than continual let-down & broken promises and as awful as moving away might sound, he may end up seeing more of DC with holiday access (& actually get to spend some quality time together) .

MuttonCadet Sun 29-Dec-13 10:42:09

I think you need to advise your brother to go to court and self represent.
It's stressful, but the court is there to try and help resolve these issues (he must suggest mediation first, only when she turns this down should it go to court).
I hope he manages to sort it out.

MistressDeeCee Sun 29-Dec-13 11:30:49

Ive lived with same issue for years. My OH has been through untold stress as his ex wont let him see his daughter unless on her terms. Situation worsened when he got together with me. Basically they finished years ago and she just wants to dangle him. Yet she was the one who cheated & SHE left HIM. Her new relationship didnt work out so I guess she is bitter. Not that I waste time wondering how she feels. But this is why I said, take it to court. Finally OH is pursuing this, because the situation becomes impossible to live with & can impact on relationship too. Its no easy thing to live with.

BoneyBackJefferson Sun 29-Dec-13 13:06:18

LadyjX

I could recount more than the Three that I have done. That my "account doesn't sit right" is exactly what I am talking about, they have not been taken at face value (unlike the many "Ex bitches" posts on the thread), all are factual, all happened and all are the truth.

Which court would you have them use?

Lweji Sun 29-Dec-13 13:13:55

the contradiction isn't that the men lie its that the one sided stories from women are on here are believed, it is still one side of the story, you have no way of ratifying whether they are real or not.

The problem here is not that we don't believe she's a bitch. She may well be.

The problem people see with this story is that he hasn't really done all he can for the children to have enough contact with him.

If he complains about her not being reasonable and really wants to see his children in a reliable basis, the legal route is still the best. That's what we always advise women with abusive exs. To keep contact with them to a minimum and get legal back up.

We have the same reaction to a woman who is prevented to see her children by her ex, but hasn't gone to court over it. And advise similarly to women whose exs play havoc with contact arrangements.

BoneyBackJefferson Sun 29-Dec-13 13:30:01

The problem here is not that we don't believe she's a bitch
Some do not believe that she is/could be a bitch. Some have even questioned that if she was abusive why would you leave the child there.
(IMO, is just another form of victim blaming).

"The problem people see with this story is that he hasn't really done all he can for the children to have enough contact with him."

As the story is third hand we don't know if he sees this as a problem, as a shift worker he may realise that his shifts don't make it easy for him to see his children.

There also has to be a shift in a person's focus before they take someone to court for contact.

LadyJx Sun 29-Dec-13 14:22:21

I believe she probably is a notch but I believe he hasn't done what he could/should of to rectify a volatile situation.

I'm not saying I don't believe you saying it doesn't sit right ad there had to be more to the story

MoominMammasHandbag Sun 29-Dec-13 15:16:31

My friend was a bitch ex. She did all she could to be difficult about contact. Her ex DH really loved his boys too.

Problem was, while he had them there were so many incidents like falling in the canal and nearly drowning, getting a nasty burn from Dad's cigarette, getting a scalded foot in the bath, watching age inappropriate films and playing age inappropriate video games and that's without the general crap of rubbish food and stupidly late bedtimes.

Yes he loved them and they loved him but as a Dad he was at best neglectful and at worst bloody dangerous.

Outsiders never know the full story.

Lweji Sun 29-Dec-13 15:44:51

One of my exSILs was also a bitch in that she wouldn't let her ex (my ex-BIL) see their children. Even contact by us and PILs was made difficult.
Apparently it was because he left her for another woman.

Still, I didn't have much respect for exBIL for not seeking contact with the two girls.
He was and has been, AFAIK, a good father for his further four children (by two different women) and nobody in the family understood why he didn't do anything to keep his first two DDs in contact.

Thisisaghostlyeuphemism Sun 29-Dec-13 16:23:37

"The problem people see with this story is that he hasn't really done all he can for the children to have enough contact with him."

If that is true, I find that incredible. He is weak for NOT taking her to court. Victim-blaming at its worst, I'm afraid.

If, as you say, LadyJ, "millions" of Dads go to court to 'fight for their flesh and blood', then we have a real problem with an abuse of a system that allows "millions" of resident parents to play God with their children - plus a culture that says the non-resident parent is always the one at fault.

I know men who have been denied fair access to their kids - in two cases, the splits were amicable (initiated by the woman) yet when the men started seeing someone else, access was with-held.

I do know several men who have walked away from their kids without a second glance, but it doesn't make me any less compassionate to those parents who are treated in the way the op's brother has been.

Lweji Sun 29-Dec-13 16:41:43

As compassionate as one feels for victims of continuous crimes, at some point it can be in their hands to minimize it or to do something about the people committing the crime.
If my house is burgled every week and I never report it to the police or increase security measures, I have no chance of the burglaries stopping.
They may still not stop, and each burglary is the full responsibility of the burglars, but I won't be helping myself.
In the same way, if people complain that they can't get a job, but sit and wait for the job to land on their lap, it's not that likely to happen.

In this case, he can choose to pander and jump through hoops for the "bitch" ex, or he can cut as much contact with her as possible and ensure he has legally backed contact with the children. It may turn out to be the solution, as she can continue to be a bitch, but at least he will have done something about it.

But then some people just want a pat on the back, and a there, there, look at how much of a bitch she/he is.

Lweji Sun 29-Dec-13 16:42:51

It may turn out to not be the solution

Thisisaghostlyeuphemism Sun 29-Dec-13 17:00:59

I see what you are saying, but I think people underestimate how difficult - almost unthinkable it is, particularly for working class men, to access the legal system.

I would always urge someone to go the legal route- but whatever the victim decides to do or not to do doesn't change the fact that what the other person is doing is wrong.

LadyJx Sun 29-Dec-13 19:55:05

If, as you say, LadyJ, "millions" of Dads go to court to 'fight for their flesh and blood', then we have a real problem with an abuse of a system that allows "millions" of resident parents to play God with their children - plus a culture that says the non-resident parent is always the one at fault.

I am not disputing this fact. But if you were in OP DB's position what would you do? Just sit back and hope for the best or fight for your right to be a parent to your child?

BoneyBackJefferson Sun 29-Dec-13 20:33:46

LadyJx

The thing is what do you do when you have your court appointed contact time and the Ex still won't let you see them and still messes you about?

LadyJx Sun 29-Dec-13 20:54:15

Boney I appreciate that happens at times but my point here is that he hasn't tried to even get to that stage. Come on here an ask for advice and even have a good bitch and a moan about an ex when you have or are doing something about it. But why the hell should someone expect multitudes of sympathy for a man who is sat on his arse doing nothing about it?

I am NOT condoning his ex's behavior and his ex probably is a bitch, but he's not worth his weight as a father either if he is not going to even attempt to resolve the situation through the only channels that seem to be available to him at this stage (IMO of course)

I CANNOT stand men or women who blame their ex for not getting to see their child when in actual fact they haven't made full attempts to do so.

I may get flamed for this comment but how can OP or her DB think things are ever going to get any better if he does nothing?

BoneyBackJefferson Sun 29-Dec-13 21:40:29

LadyJx

Just because he hasn't done it, doesn't mean that he won't do it.
He may not have got to that stage yet. He might still be at the talking stage of trying to get things sorted.

It is also not him that is moaning on MN it is his DSis

LadyJx Sun 29-Dec-13 22:34:04

She has already said he doesn't want to go through court as he thinks it might make things worse.

Worse? how can it get any worse?

BoneyBackJefferson Sun 29-Dec-13 23:16:31

he might not get to see his kids at all.
she might make him have access in a secure place.

LadyJx Sun 29-Dec-13 23:18:54

And a court will decide he doesn't get to see his kids at all? He isn't getting to see them as it is.

Secure contact is better than none at all.

BoneyBackJefferson Mon 30-Dec-13 00:32:55

he doesn't get to see them often as it is.

And when the secure contact is over and the court says that he sees them every other weekend and possibly once in the week and the ex starts messing around with the access again?

It can be a never ending roundabout of stress.

NigellasDealer Mon 30-Dec-13 00:42:38

I CANNOT stand men or women who blame their ex for not getting to see their child when in actual fact they haven't made full attempts to do so
same here, or indeed ANY attempts because whinging and blaming other people is so much easier than actually doing anything at all, like. err. parenting?

redshifter Mon 30-Dec-13 01:54:09

same here, or indeed ANY attempts because whinging and blaming other people is so much easier than actually doing anything at all, like. err. parenting?

I think going to see your DC on Xmas day for a few hours before work, IS an attempt to see them.

It was pre arranged and agreed to.

Perhaps now OP's DB will go the court route but not using the courts as the first resort is hardly unreasonable.

How can you do "parenting" if you are, like, err, stopped from seeing your DC?

NigellasDealer Mon 30-Dec-13 01:58:39

Perhaps now OP's DB will go the court route
perhaps he will, perhaps he will....

horsetowater Mon 30-Dec-13 02:06:47

Either go to court or Jeremy Kyle.

LadyJx Mon 30-Dec-13 10:46:58

Boney You are actually just making up the worst possible scenario and saying it could happen. Well I could walk out the door today and get hit by a bus, however it's not going to stop me from walking out my door is it?

He will never know what will happen unless he goes for it. He might end up with her continuing to call the shots but that is what she is doing now. If she wanted to pull contact she could at any time. Not every woman will ignore a court order.

Lweji Mon 30-Dec-13 10:54:28

Going back to the OP (where has she gone?) I wouldn't be sending messages to exSIL, but screaming at DB why hasn't he gone legal yet.

Thisisaghostlyeuphemism Mon 30-Dec-13 10:59:36

"I CANNOT stand men or women who blame their ex for not getting to see their child when in actual fact they haven't made full attempts to do so"

This is appalling victim blaming here.

No mention at all of the resident parent who refuses access for no good reason - the fault ALL rests on the victim who hasn't been able to/has been frightened/ has been hoping things improve/ who can't afford to go to court.

I hope none of you work in domestic violence with that attitude.

Lweji Mon 30-Dec-13 11:00:21

Also, there are consequences for breaching a court order for contact. For example

BoneyBackJefferson Mon 30-Dec-13 11:54:59

LadyJx

you asked "Worse? how can it get any worse?"

Not being able to see your children is about as bad as it can get.

Lweji

How many times have you heard of a court enforcing a contact order?

I honestly cannot think of any.

redshifter Mon 30-Dec-13 12:55:07

Lweji

Contact orders are breached all the time with no consequences. They are never practically enforced.

They try to scare people into complying with them but in reality you can breach a contact order regularly for years and years with no consequences.

Lweji Mon 30-Dec-13 13:19:50

How many people actually make complaints about breaching of contact orders? And the people who are refused contact, probably wouldn't actually want to have custody of the children anyway, which could be a likely ultimate consequence.

Reading on it, it seems that the law is better regarding this issue, but judges are still not likely to be tough on the subject.

I don't think most people are likely to disobey court orders, particularly if they value their children. But things cannot change if the non-resident parent just keeps sitting on it.

Lweji Mon 30-Dec-13 13:33:51

Also, family court decisions don't often show up in the news.

This document is interesting in that respect. Punitive measures were given (or threatened) in most cases of hostile non-contact, whilst coparenting support was given in most cases of conflict between parents.

It doesn't have to be about sending the mother (or father) to prison, but ensuring that there is a legal framework and support behind contact, so that the varying moods of the resident parent play a smaller role in contact with the non-resident parent.
It may actually make things easier, as there is less chances for conflict.

BoneyBackJefferson Mon 30-Dec-13 14:02:54

probably wouldn't actually want to have custody of the children anyway,

And you know this how?

Family court decisions don't show up in the news because they are done behind closed doors.

From your link
"To date, however, there has been no research on enforcement to in form policy-­‐makers about the nature of the cases or the approach of the family courts."

MuttonCadet Mon 30-Dec-13 15:16:51

People disobey court orders all the time, they can be reported numerous times and the courts do very little to actually enforce the order.
It's a long painful process and in the meantime the children grow up, and having had very little contact with the NR parent do not generally want more contact after a significant length of time.
At a certain age the children are asked for their opinion.

Lweji Mon 30-Dec-13 16:31:59

To date, however, there has been no research on enforcement to in form policy-­‐makers about the nature of the cases or the approach of the family courts.

To date means until the present report. That is what the report is about. Presenting research on enforcement. You should read it all.

Lweji Mon 30-Dec-13 16:35:26

probably wouldn't actually want to have custody of the children anyway,

And you know this how?

I don't know. I think it's likely, or probable.

BoneyBackJefferson Mon 30-Dec-13 18:05:36

Lweji

I have read it and there are holes in the descriptions or reasons for withholding access.

I would like to see much more of a breakdown in percentages of each section linking to gender, more research in to "parental conflicts".

I realise that it is a document highlighting the key points and was fully published in 2013.

"I don't know. I think it's likely, or probable."
so it is just supposition based on gut feelings? or a possible bias

Lweji Mon 30-Dec-13 18:12:29

so it is just supposition based on gut feelings? or a possible bias

As is claiming that there are no convictions in court without looking for actual evidence.

BoneyBackJefferson Mon 30-Dec-13 19:27:05

there have been to my knowledge no convictions in court, your link talks about sanctions, which may be the same thing but is not explained.

so there are 215 (ish) cases where punitive measures where taken out of 1400 (ish).

neither does the study say whether the sanctions where effective.

It also doesn't say how many cases are caught up in mediation.

fifi669 Mon 30-Dec-13 20:35:18

DP would love custody. My friend caught in a contact dispute would love custody. To make assumptions based on nothing is ridiculous. I'm sure not all fathers feel the same way, but a lot will.

The problem isn't necessarily the law, but that the judges are still focusing on mother knows best and are too slow or too reluctant to hand out punishment got disobeying court orders.

Lweji Mon 30-Dec-13 20:39:04

But that was not really the point, was it?

Fine if they sort it at mediation, but mediation still involves solicitors.

The point is that he can't just leave it to her, allowing his child and himself to suffer the consequences. He doesn't have to take her to court at this stage, but I do think he should sort it with her through a solicitor, (or a mediator, if she agrees) which is less emotionally charged than dealing directly with her. Eventually he might need to actually go to court.

The study posted showed that there are various ways in which the court deals with these cases, without necessarily involving punitive measures or prison.
No, it doesn't show all the data or outcomes, but we can't just say it doesn't work either based on a gut feeling, and lack of news on the papers.

A family solicitor is likely to be better placed to advise the OP's brother about the best course of action and the risks, based on the actual case and their experience in family courts. But he will have to at least consult one.

Lweji Mon 30-Dec-13 20:39:55

Sorry, cross post was to Boney.

Lweji Mon 30-Dec-13 20:40:28

Fifi, have they actually asked for custody, if they can't get any contact otherwise?

fifi669 Mon 30-Dec-13 22:25:42

DP has had sporadic contact with his DD since they broke up when she was around 6 months old. He was able to see DD whenever including for the whole weekend while ex went on a hen do.... Then we got together and she stopped all contact. He did the recommended route of mediation. Got nowhere. Applied for legal aid, this was taking months.

New year she says fresh start. Few months contact building up time with DD now 1. She says she wants to get back together. He says no. She stops contact. Back to mediation. Back to applying for legal aid.... Relents just before Christmas. Build up contact again with DD now 2. Ex allows DD to meet me and DS (who DP has taken on as his own) this summer. Few months of this and then she says DD isn't allowed to see us anymore. DD is banned from seeing any of his friends/family. DP bumps into his sister weeks later and admits to ex they spoke to her. Stops contact. Family support worker this time.

Restarts contact at 45 minutes a week. DP gets to see her for her 3rd birthday, the first one ever. He's scared of not seeing her. Decides to hold out to Christmas as he doesn't want to miss that too.

He's currently got 2 1/2 hours a week. Each pick up and drop off is met with abuse. DD is talking negatively about me and DS when they meet and freely says it's because mummy said so. He knows he needs to go to court so she can have proper time with her dad.

With each mediator/support worker they've sided with ex. There has been no abuse of any sort and she hasn't alleged any. Yet anything she decides on he is helpless to go against. Eg at mediation he said it's not acceptable his family aren't allowed to see DD. Ex wouldn't budge. Mediator says do you want to see your daughter or not? Not even handed at all. He's scared the court will be the same and he'll lose what little he's got. He won't get custody as he hadn't had meaningful contact with his DD for most of her life. Not his fault, but DD would be happier with ex because of it.

My friend who has been refused contact IS applying for custody.

BoneyBackJefferson Tue 31-Dec-13 10:49:51

"The point is that he can't just leave it to her, allowing his child and himself to suffer the consequences. He doesn't have to take her to court at this stage, but I do think he should sort it with her through a solicitor,"

If he is at that stage then that is the way he should go.

The problem with the study is that is just one study (having multiple studies would be much better).
The problem with the punitive measures is that they are not being applied.
The problem with mediation is that it is often used to restart the clock by resident parents who don't want their exes to see their children.

All I have to go on (like so many in here) is anecdotal evidence, if I go purely on MN it is almost always the NRP at fault, if I go by my own experiences outside of MN then it is much closer to 50/50.

Oh and anyone who wants 'custody' (residency) of a child who is already happy with the RP doesn't have the child's interests at heart.

fifi669 Tue 31-Dec-13 12:27:10

I disagree in part. If the RP isn't allowing contact with the NRP and refuses to do so even after court intervention, then long term it's better that residence changes. The child has a right to see both it's parents. If one parent won't allow this, no matter if the child is happy, they don't have their best interests at heart and shouldn't have residence.

If they refuse to do so after Court intervention then they're breaching a Court order, can't you be held in contempt of Court for that? Someone going for 'custody' suggests that they're after sole care of a child which is not in the best interests of the child if they are happy and settled already. Shared care, perhaps, which doesn't need to be 50/50.

BoneyBackJefferson Tue 31-Dec-13 12:47:00

the flip side to that Vampyre is what should happen when the child is unhappy with the RP?

If that's the case, the NRP should absolutely go down the Court route, but someone wanting full residence of their child regardless just smacks of spitefulness.

Rufustherednosedreindeer Tue 31-Dec-13 14:41:54

Agree a lot with boney and with fifis last post

fifi669 Tue 31-Dec-13 14:54:15

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/9424060/Fathers-rights-breached-by-mother-too-upset-to-let-him-see-children.html

There are so many cases where the NRP, normally the man is completely sidelined to accommodate the mother.

BillyBanter Tue 31-Dec-13 15:08:36

She was emotionally abusive towards him, not to the kids. She's not an unfit parent. DB knows that taking ds from her would kill her, he doesn't want to do that.

Yes it was arranged he'd see ds in the morning before he went to work, she then decided that unless he spent all day he couldn't come in and wouldn't let him in the house.

She still thinks they'll get back together.

People who are abusive to their partners are not generally good parents. Denying her children access to their dad is not good parenting. It is abusive to them as well as to him. This is the same for abusive men or women. It is fairly typical for abused women to not want to deny their abusive ex access to the kids, or the kids access to their father even though their abusive nature is not good for the kids. IME abused fathers typically do not want to deny the abusive mother custody of the children because they have been trained to see the mother's hurt feelings as most important. I understand him feeling this way but really he should go for custody for their sake. Her welfare is no more his concern than a woman's should be for her ex abusive H.

It's not an easy path but he should go to court for custody or at least a big chunk of custody for his children's sake.

BillyBanter Tue 31-Dec-13 15:11:10

If I was in a position to advice any man hoping to escape an abusive relationship with the mother of their children I would advice them not to leave without the children. We would never advise a mother to leave an abusive husband without taking her children.

BillyBanter Tue 31-Dec-13 15:11:21

advise, not advice.

Lweji Tue 31-Dec-13 15:11:39

Fifi, that is a good example of the father not giving up and the court ultimately ruling in his favour. Thanks. smile

And agreeing with BillyBanter.

fifi669 Tue 31-Dec-13 15:38:49
Lweji Tue 31-Dec-13 16:14:24

It is sad, but it is still one dramatic case.
We don't hear about the ones where there are more satisfactory resolutions.
Then you had the previous one to balance it.

fifi669 Tue 31-Dec-13 16:35:54

I don't see being denied access for three years as a balancing story

BoneyBackJefferson Tue 31-Dec-13 17:02:16

with the first story instead of praising the father, I have to ask what the fuck was the judge on and is he still in the family court system?

Lweji Tue 31-Dec-13 17:13:28

The court system always takes time, but the dad got the result he wanted.

There will also be a few mums in somewhat similar circumstances. Sometimes we hear about them here. There are cases where children are being abused by their fathers and the court still enforces contact, and the mother is afraid of breaching contact. The world is not perfect. It does not mean that we should avoid the courts, or that they never work.

Evidence is about numbers, just not a case in a newspaper.

It still stands that if the informal path is not working, then the OP's brother should go the legal route.

Lweji Tue 31-Dec-13 17:14:42

I have to ask what the fuck was the judge on and is he still in the family court system?
Well, quite.
It is a shame that some judges don't seem fit to be in that position.

BoneyBackJefferson Tue 31-Dec-13 17:43:59

It is a shame that some judges don't seem fit to be in that position.

I think that should be aimed at all of the various "specialist" organisations that get involved with these cases.

BillyBanter Tue 31-Dec-13 17:51:41

Same for anything. There should be some sort of audit of judges' performances. How many complaints, how many cases overturned etc. Maybe there is...

So essentially, both men and women can be abusive partners, yes. I don't agree that fathers get sidelined in order to accommodate mothers, I think Courts and Cafcass are very keen for parents to have equal care. I maintain that it's ridiculous to be too willing to believe any stranger who is so emotionally involved in something like this and as I said, understandably biased. I don't believe that happily agreeing 'what a bitch, he should go for full custody' comments are sensible and besides, if his child is happy with his mother then he shouldn't want to go for full so-called 'custody'. Sounds like something needs to be formalised for a bit of stability though.

fifi669 Tue 31-Dec-13 19:39:37

I think go to court, get contact formalised. If she goes against it, go for custody.

Lweji Tue 31-Dec-13 19:47:01

Fully agree with fifi669's last post. Exactly.

BoneyBackJefferson Tue 31-Dec-13 20:09:24

agree with the last four posts. smile

fifi669 Tue 31-Dec-13 21:29:49

Bloody hell. Is a thread in agreement??? shock smile

Rufustherednosedreindeer Tue 31-Dec-13 22:08:55

Think it's ended up that way

grin

Lweji Tue 31-Dec-13 22:12:53

smile

I think we were sort of saying the same thing.

But I'm sure someone will come eventually and disagree. grin

BoneyBackJefferson Tue 31-Dec-13 22:47:51

grin

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