Buggies must be folded by law, if a wheelchair user wishes to board

(1000 Posts)
BerniceBroadside Thu 19-Dec-13 08:33:09

I know this can be a hot topic so thought I'd share that stagecoach have new signs on their buses stating that buggies must be folded by law if a wheelchair user wishes to board. Let's hope it's actually enforced.

Annonynon Thu 19-Dec-13 08:38:00

That's great news that the new signs are up, hopefully it will make things clearer for the fuckwits people who don't understand wheelchairs have priority

Gileswithachainsaw Thu 19-Dec-13 08:40:45

The signs mean nothing if the drivers do not enforce then. Let's hope that the drivers so their bit and the management/ complaints department back up the drivers .

And please let the drivers throw the idiots who refuse off the bus

DingDongUriGelleryOnHigh Thu 19-Dec-13 08:46:34

For the first time ever I got on a bus which already had a lady in a large fully motorised wheelchair and a lady with a baby in one of those carriage type prams. I've a double P&T Nav with two babies in it. I doubt if the other lady could've folded her pram and mine would have taken up more room folded, but with a bit of manoeuvring we all managed to fit fine and comfortably.

I've heard a lot of people panic about getting on buses with their babies when they see things like this. Of course a wheelchair user has priority over pushchairs but in general, buses can accommodate a couple of hefty prams along with a wheelchair.

tiggytape Thu 19-Dec-13 08:48:22

It has always been the case that wheelchairs have priority and it should be obvious to most people that a wheelchair user's needs outweighs the needs of a parent and a buggy (even if the baby is sleeping and the buggy is hard to fold and they have a ton of shopping etc).

I guess it wasn't obvious to some else they wouldn't have had to do this though. I will make it easier on their drivers to enforce as they now have a written notice they can point to which proves all buggy users know the score - there's no arguing about who needs the space more or about who it is designed for.

SMorgauseBordOfChristmasTat Thu 19-Dec-13 08:51:49

Most Stagecoach buses can take 2 or 3 pushchairs and a wheelchair quite easily these days.

Some heavily laden buggies just can't be folded safely and in those cases the owner should be given a free ticket for the next bus and asked to vacate the space.

This currently doesn't happen and I can understand people being annoyed at having to pay twice which is why some get aggro.

Unless the drivers enforce it there is still a problem. We do have stickers stating that wheelchairs have priority.

I managed to fit DDs adults wheelchair and someone elses pram into the parking space, but it involved taking the foot plates off and tucking her feet under the wheelchair.

There was no way the pram owner was going to put the pram down and make it easier for me, the passengers complained about the driver letting me on with a wheelchair, and the driver sat there whilst a queue built up behind me, whilst I tried politely to get the idiot to collapse his pram.

For my troubles the idiot told his girlfriend that if I was a bloke he would have smacked me in the mouth.

MiaowTheCat Thu 19-Dec-13 08:56:59

It needs an organised system regarding onward travel for those with pushchairs who get off to vacate the spaces to partially sort the mess out really (you'll never get over the people being twats factor) - if you knew the driver was going to radio the bus behind just to ask if there were pushchair spaces looking like being empty on his bus, and re-do your ticket so you wouldn't have problems getting on and be expected to pay twice (I quite often don't have the cash to pay a second bus fare on me on the way home since they're so bloody pricey round here) then I think people would be a lot less defensive about it - I'd have no problems waiting another 15 mins or so for the next bus - do it fairly regularly if I don't fancy getting on a busy one anyway.

Before I get jumped on for even quibbling about the logistics of onward travel - it IS a factor and if people knew they weren't going to be left high and dry it would sort a fair bit of the mess out.

Oh and something done about the bloody wheelie shopping trollies in all of the spaces that NO drivers will dare ask to be moved at all round here! I actually can't get on one of our local services at all because I know I'll never be able to get a pushchair on for the shopping trollies (on the rare occasions they run an accessible bus).

Gileswithachainsaw Thu 19-Dec-13 08:57:08

They complained? shock
Good god. It's unbelievable that we need a law these days to get people to artificially have manners.

Not your problem other people are idiots who get on buses with massive tanks and can't collapse them. Get the down to Argos and get a stroller ffs.

WorraLiberty Thu 19-Dec-13 08:57:37

How big are stagecoach buses then?

Most buses around here are Arriva and if the person in the wheelchair is positioned correctly...ie with their backs against the large cushion on the wall, there's just about enough room for a small stroller buggy to slot in by their feet.

This is good news. It should be blooming obvious really, but it's good news either way.

That said where I live I have only seen one wheelchair on a bus. I live in Essex. (Accident of when or which I've caught I'm sure) We all reorganised for her. Then discovered that because of the angle of the pole her wheel chair wouldn't fit the space. It wasn't a big chair nor did she seem to have trouble manoeuvring it. Just the pole was in the wrong place/had a bend at the wrong point.

It was .....dunno the best word tbh exasperating (?) on her behalf and it hadn't occurred to me would be an issue! Is it often? Am curious. This thread made me think of it again.

brettgirl2 Thu 19-Dec-13 09:03:10

it isn't fair that if you got off to vacate the space you would have to pay to get on another bus. I would collapse if I could but if its a pram with carrycot its difficult.

It sure makes me glad I have a car.

Minnie, we have problem poles on our buses, the trick is to move the chair up the aisle and then reverse into the space. Which is fun when no one wants to move.

OhNoGeorge Thu 19-Dec-13 09:06:05

I agree it's the onward travel situation that can make it difficult for people to 'just agree' to get off the bus. Of course wheelchairs have priority and buggy users should vacate the space if needed, but they shouldn't be financially penalised for doing so. As PP said, they might not have enough money on them to get home and buses are v expensive these days. Yes buggy users do need to be aware that they may be asked to leave but other bus users with large suitcases or shopping trollies aren't ever asked to move, I don't really know what the difference is as they are all bulky items that take up extra space.

Fleta Thu 19-Dec-13 09:08:39

The easiest solution to this problem would be for a woman with a buggy to automatically be issued with a "day rider" ticket - so if she needs to get off a bus for a wheelchair user, she doesn't have to pay again.

The other thing is that people need TIME and if they're alone HELP to juggle collapsing a pram whilst managing the baby too.

Yes it is simple manners on the part of the pram user to fold if possible. However it is also simple manners for people to treat them nicely and offer help.

MoominsYonisAreScary Thu 19-Dec-13 09:09:08

The buses around here could easily accommodate my double p&t plus a couple of other pushchairs but they wont.

Its 1 double or 2 singles or a wheel chair

TheHeadlessLadyofCannock Thu 19-Dec-13 09:11:53

Surely if someone with a buggy has to get off a bus, the driver would give them a ticket so they don't have to pay to get on the next one? Same as if your bus breaks down and you have to get another one.

I find it sad that this has to be spelled out. I've been on many buses where an argument breaks out between a buggy user and a wheelchair user, with the former behaving as if they're just as entitled as the latter. What on earth makes people think like that?

Fluffytent Thu 19-Dec-13 09:12:42

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Dwerf Thu 19-Dec-13 09:14:35

On our single decker buses you could get a wheelchair in the larger space and possibly a small buggy opposite where there are two single seats facing each other, or three buggies in total. Less on the double deckers.

The other day I had to stand up at the front simply because I couldn't get past the guy with his huge trolley parked in the buggy bay. It wasn't a shopping trolley but some sort of contraption (complete with a plastic bread tray on top) for hawking his flashing LED tat from. There were also two buggies on the bus. Quite often, if there's two buggies on already, the drivers don't allow a third if it's a big one. And most parents around here will check before they board that there's space. I don't think trolley guy should have gotten on that bus at all. When one of the mothers with a buggy got off, three of us had to get off the bus so she had room to get off before we could get back on (but we could still barely get past him).

The onward travel thing is a good idea, though most people I know get a day pass unless they are only going one way because it works out a lot cheaper.

SMorgauseBordOfChristmasTat Thu 19-Dec-13 09:17:39

Our stagecoach buses have room for a buggy at the foot of a wheelchair and drop down seats opposite, so plenty of room usually.

Apart from when occupied by shopping trolleys.

autumnsmum Thu 19-Dec-13 09:20:09

Aah shopping troll lies totAl stress

LillianaMarie Thu 19-Dec-13 09:23:48

Where i live there are no spaces for pushchairs or wheelchairs. Where you get of the bus there is a large standing area and people use that... But most of the time just fold down their pushchairs and carry the kids making way for just wheelchairs. Buses are not a gods given right but a priviledge. People take them way to for granted.

FeckOffCupofMulledWine Thu 19-Dec-13 09:27:41

Buses should be designed with more storage space, I would have no problem with folding a buggy to board a bus but sometimes there is nowhere to put said folded buggy and it's hard to hold onto it along with toddler and shopping.

Gileswithachainsaw Thu 19-Dec-13 09:28:43

I think half the problem now is that prams are a fashion accessory. They are expensive which puts people off buying the parents buying a second light weight stroller, and they all come with a million accessories like matching change bags and different seats etc. They all look lovely and I'm sure provide comfort to the baby but are bloody huge and impractical if you use public transport regularly. I rely on buses so ease was the factor for me. I didn't care if looked expensive or fancy and had the accessories. Because sleeping new born or squirmy toddler, it's polite to collapse for someone who CANNOT just move or get out and collapse the chair.

Fluffytent Thu 19-Dec-13 09:29:28

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Hedgehog80 Thu 19-Dec-13 09:31:34

What do you do then if you have disabled dc who uses a buggy like I do? Dcs look fine but in fact are not. Quite a few times I've had to justify myself as to why I can't fold in front of a busload of people.

softlysoftly Thu 19-Dec-13 09:33:55

Slightly off topic but how do wc users deal with the tube in London?

I have never seen anyone or a lift or a space. Does that mean they just can't?

SMorgauseBordOfChristmasTat Thu 19-Dec-13 09:35:18

If they can't stand while you fold and are too heavy to lift onto a seat then you just say that they can'tHedgehog

No need for further explanation, no one else's business.

Moltobene Thu 19-Dec-13 09:37:05

They should definitely have a ticketing system for when buggy users are asked to leave the bus in favour of wheelchair users (which I have no problem about in principle as a buggy user).

What gets me is that bus companies are deliberately ignoring that every buggy user could potentially have to pay multiple fares and that no provision is made for this. It's not fair to penalise buggy users (or their parents I mean!) financially.

Agree with PP saying time and help are also required when travelling alone with folding a buggy. It's part of the whole 'travelling public' concept which a lot of impatient people don't seem to want to get.

tiggytape Thu 19-Dec-13 09:40:36

I would collapse if I could but if its a pram with carrycot its difficult.

Who on earth catches a bus with a pram and carrycot? Maybe in an unplanned emergency, it cannot be helped but surely nobody who ever intends to use a bus buys a silver cross style pram as their only pram?

I live in London and when mine were babies (only around 10 years ago), I caught buses all the time. I had a sling and a collapsible stroller.

Wheelchair users have little discretion about the type of wheelchair they can get. They have to be able to fit into it but trying to get on a bus with a great big pram is idiotic. I think the entitlement comes from the luxury of being able to take buggies on buses nowadays so people don't even bother to make the effort to have a small buggy that they can collapse easily (whilst hoping obviously that they won't have to).

katatonic Thu 19-Dec-13 09:40:46

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hyenafunk Thu 19-Dec-13 09:43:38

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tiggytape Thu 19-Dec-13 09:43:48

Slightly off topic but how do wc users deal with the tube in London?

I travelled on tubes quite a bit too. My method was: baby in the sling, lightweight stroller already collapsed and pushed on its back wheels to the tube station then carried down the stairs with one hand or by a kind stranger sometimes.
Once baby was a toddler, same method but without the sling and with the toddler in the buggy on the way to the station and then collapse it at the top and walk down stairs holding hands or toddler on one hip and stroller in other hand.

tiggytape Thu 19-Dec-13 09:45:31

Sorry - missed the point there totally. I haven't seen any / many wc users on the tube. Some stations have lifts but almost all of them have additional stairs and of course getting on the actual train in the rush would be impossible.

Gileswithachainsaw Thu 19-Dec-13 09:49:23

hyena it's hardly a fuss if you just get on with it. Do what the rest of us do. Take a back pack for the shopping or get it delivered and choose a buggy you can collapse of you need to.

Annonynon Thu 19-Dec-13 09:53:03

Hyena because the spaces are there for wheelchairs, if not needed by a wheelchair user then they can be used by pushchairs but it's not expecting special treatment to want to use the space designated for you

owlbegoingmerrily Thu 19-Dec-13 09:54:53

I was on a bus in London the other day which had 2 buggies in the wheelchair bay. We got to a stop which had a wheelchair at, the driver opened the doors and yelled out to the people "got 2 buggies, you can't get on." When I called out to the driver that wheelchairs have priority the woman in the wheelchair said it was ok as they needed to go further than the bus was going (it was terminating it's journey as it had been delayed.) That's not the point though is it. I'd been waiting over 30 minutes for the bus to turn up when they were meant to run every 10 minutes, if they'd been waiting a similar time and had the same wait for the next bus that's an hour!

OddFodd Thu 19-Dec-13 09:54:56

hyena - it's not patronising to vacate the dedicated space for a wheelchair user

Annonynon Thu 19-Dec-13 09:56:09

Actually hyena I am so offended by your post which you clearly knew some people would be or you wouldn't have 'felt a bit shit' posting it

When I bought my prams and buggies the most important thing I checked for was whether I could collapse it with one hand. That way when I need to use public transport I could hold the baby and shopping in one hand and use the other to collapse and carry the pram.

Sadly I can't do that with an adult who needs to use a wheelchair.

They are Wheelchair spaces that pram users can use when they are not required, they are not pram spaces that can be used by wheelchair users when not required.

OhNoGeorge Thu 19-Dec-13 09:56:23

It's not always so simple as 'choose a lighter buggy' though is it? Some people have twins, some have DC with a small age gap, some DC in buggies are also disabled, some buggy users are also disabled. It shouldn't automatically be assumed that the buggy users are bringing their 'huge' buggies on to a bus simply due to a sense of entitlement.

Hedgehog80 Thu 19-Dec-13 09:57:30

Tried that but on a feel occasions have had people questioning and not believing, ended up showing dcs blue badge couple of times when people got irate. Tend to avoid buses if we can now as st more hassle than its wrth.

AmberLeaf Thu 19-Dec-13 09:59:13

Surely if someone with a buggy has to get off a bus, the driver would give them a ticket so they don't have to pay to get on the next one? Same as if your bus breaks down and you have to get another one

I have seen this being done.

We all agree disabled people should be treat equally so surely this extends to not giving them special treatment

It isn't 'special treatment'

Wheelchair users are not equal to non wheelchair users as far as getting on buses goes, so by providing an accessible space on the bus, it goes some way to redress the balance.

Also how do you hold a baby and fold a pram? And then there's the shopping blah blah. Would just be easier to get off but that could possibly leave a baby and parent in the cold and rain half way through their journey and if they didn't have anymore money to get another bus they'd have to walk it... You know?

Folding a pram while holding a baby isn't that hard. It was what we had to do before when buses had steps up by the doors and just rows of seats. Cold and rain don't hurt and they can walk can't they? Again, we managed before.

I went to school with a lot of visusally impaired people as our school had a specialised unit. They reiterated time and time again that they HATE being treat differently and to not make any fuss over their disability. They hated being patronised and loved just slotting in with the rest of us

Good or them. Were they wheelchair users?

tiggytape Thu 19-Dec-13 10:01:14

The spaces only came about because of wheelchair users.

Just a few years ago, everyone had to collapse their buggy (it had to be collapsed before you even got on the bus so if you didn't have a sling you either had to ask a stranger to hold your baby or lay the baby on the pavement whilst you collapsed it)

Instead of having these wheelchair spaces sitting empty whilst parents with buggies struggled (which would be petty), the bus companies allowed buggies to use them when they are vacant. If they are needed by a wheelchair then they revert to their original function which is to hold wheelcahirs.

If you don't want to get turfed off, then take a buggy that collapses easily and either collapse it in advance or be ready to should someone else need the space.
If you want to take a full size silvercross pram on a bus then be prepared to be turfed off if someone who doesn't have the choice about their wheelchair design needs to get on.

OhNoGeorge Thu 19-Dec-13 10:03:50

Btw in case it wasn't clear from my post I have no problem at all with buggy users being asked to vacate the wheelchair space for a wheelchair user. I just think that some posters don't consider that there are a huge range of scenarios, and perhaps people aren't 'choosing' to bring on their huge buggy simply because they feel entitled to.

TheHeadlessLadyofCannock Thu 19-Dec-13 10:06:54

hyena, a lot of people with disabilities would probably say that they don't want to be patronised or treated differently, but someone who uses a wheelchair has different needs from someone with a visual impairment.

I do agree though that buses with dedicated space for wheelchairs and separate dedicated space for buggies wouldn't be a bad idea.

AmberLeaf Thu 19-Dec-13 10:09:01

I know what you mean OhnoGeorge.

But again, twins, small age gaps etc, we all managed before with those scenarios too.

A disabled child in a mcclaren major [disability buggy] should be treated the same as a wheelchair, IMO there should be something on the signs to indicate this. Should also cover parents with a disability with a buggy.

On the whole, people with buggies who object to moving, are just lazy or have the attitude that they should have equal priority to a wheelchair user.

softlysoftly Thu 19-Dec-13 10:10:00

Thanks both that's a bit shit really isn't it because although the tube is a hideous hellhole that turns ordinary people into sociopaths it's also most convenient.

I think we should just ban the sale of all buggies other than the city mini and make them cheaper. 1 handed fold and flick out. Layflat for newborns. Perfect. That'd solve it. smile

Dawndonnaagain Thu 19-Dec-13 10:11:19

I had twins and a 19 month old, as well as a ten year old. One of the twins has a physical disability. We managed.
Now, if she's at a bus stop too long, particularly in the wet and cold hyena she is liable to end up in hospital with hypothermia. As others have said, it is not entitlement, it's not even equality, it is a nod in the right direction. 52 seats on a bus and only one suitable for a user with disabilities. In what way is that 'giving them special treatment'?

MoominsYonisAreScary Thu 19-Dec-13 10:13:18

Pushchairs can be folded , most people would not be able to get out of their wheel chair and fold it. Why should they have to wait for a bus with no pushchairs, which could be hours around here.

Equality? Some people are so stupid

blackandwhiteandredallover Thu 19-Dec-13 10:14:23

I think the drivers need to enforce it too though. I was on a bus with DD in a maclaren the other day- it wasn't busy so we just sat in the wheelchair/buggy space. At the next stop was a woman with a big buggy. The driver opened the door and shouted "sorry already got one buggy, no room for any more" and shut the door. I got up and started saying "no wait, I can fold this one, it's fine", and started getting DD out, several people heard me and started telling the driver to wait, but he just drove off angry Then I realised there would actually have been enough room for 2 buggies even if I hadn't folded it! He was just being lazy.

Gileswithachainsaw Thu 19-Dec-13 10:14:50

Surely it's just politeness all round. There are going to be high/low priority buggy users all round. It's just a decent thing to do to collapse if it's a new baby or it's a double buggy getting on or someone's clearly more stressed than you are

AnythingNotEverything Thu 19-Dec-13 10:17:49

I am a regular bus user with a big pram. DD is 8 weeks old and I don't want to wear a sling. Should I not attempt to go on a bus?

I always buy an all day ticket and would happily get off and wait for the next bus if required. I avoid travelling at school pickup time as that's when the bus often has lots of prams and buggies on it.

DS is 13. I remember the good old days of handing your non walking child to a stranger so you could fold up your pram.

I think the key thing is for drivers to enforce this, as it's standard policy. A sign should help, but let's not start bashing parents for daring to use the bus!

AmberLeaf Thu 19-Dec-13 10:22:14

but let's not start bashing parents for daring to use the bus!

No one is doing that.

We are just saying, be prepared to fold your buggy if need be. Also to have the sense to buy a buggy that isn't too big to fold if you intend to use the bus.

tiggytape Thu 19-Dec-13 10:24:26

I am a regular bus user with a big pram. DD is 8 weeks old and I don't want to wear a sling. Should I not attempt to go on a bus?

Well it does seem a bit like causing yourself problems that could easily be avoided. Big pram, no sling, no easy way of folding pram, tiny baby...
But since you're happy to hop on and off the bus as required, you aren't causing anyone else any problems so that's up to you.

peppinagiro Thu 19-Dec-13 10:27:18

God I'm glad I just use a sling. The relief I feel when I can just hop on and plonk myself in a seat, while 5 women with buggies argue over the 2 spaces available.

tiggytape Thu 19-Dec-13 10:32:32

I must admit I didn't use a sling all of the time because of my back.
But if you have a folded buggy (pushed along on it's back wheels) and a sling, you can put the baby in the buggy at the other end and hook the sling on the buggy handles. It is just for the actual getting on and off buses and tubes that it is handy.

Trigglesx Thu 19-Dec-13 10:37:32

It makes me feel a bit shit saying this but...

You should feel a bit shit actually. It's right up there with "I don't mean to be rude but..."

"Slinging shit with a smile" is still "slinging shit" you know. hmm

AnythingNotEverything Thu 19-Dec-13 10:46:45

The phrase "idiots who get on buses with massive tanks" felt a little parent bashing tbh!

This isn't about prams. It's about rude individuals. In the last few weeks I've had to ask able bodied passengers to move out of the space allocated for wheelchair users (and pushchairs). You think they'd spot they were in the way!

NoComet Thu 19-Dec-13 10:56:44

Folding my dear old mountain buggy was bigger, more awkward and covered in sharp corners folded.
Way better to leave it up and nose it up the aisle.

NoComet Thu 19-Dec-13 10:58:50

Use a sling, great advice unless you have a baby who screams blue murder at being put in a sling.

elliejjtiny Thu 19-Dec-13 11:06:45

I feel like I'm an expert on these threads because when I'm out with my 4 children we have a wheelchair and a big buggy with us. I also used to have a SN buggy for DS2. Not a maclaren major, a massive tank like thing that took DH both hands and a lot of swearing to fold it up to get it in the car. I couldn't have folded it to get on the bus but the bus drivers wouldn't treat it as a wheelchair and nor would the school when they said no buggies were allowed in the school building. Round here there are signs saying that wheelchair users take priority over buses but they aren't enforced. I hate that.

However people have buggies that aren't easily foldable aren't all idiots. If I just had DS3 in the buggy and my handbag I could fold it fine. One hand holding DS3 in a vice like grip (he is a bolter) and one hand to fold the buggy. But when I've got DS4 as well... DS4 is disabled and at 6 months has hardly any head control. He also gets cold really easily and sometimes overheats so I've got the footmuff on the buggy and extra blankets in the basket. I have to empty the basket of blankets, changing bag, prescription formula etc. Then get DS3 and DS4 out. By this point I've run out of hands unless I've got the older 2 with me. If I've got the older 2 with me I can put DS2 on the bus seat and strap DS3 in the wheelchair. I can tell DS1 to sit next to DS2 and plonk DS4 in his lap, while saying mind his head every 30 seconds. Then I have 2 hands free to take DS4's seat off, fold the buggy, gather up all our stuff and put the whole lot in the luggage rack. I have a phil and teds buggy. I have a mild disability myself (dyspraxia) and when I was pregnant with DS2 we did a lot of research to find the most suitable buggy for me to manage on buses and walking. There are lighter double buggies that are easier to fold but they are side by side or longer and I can't push them, not in a straight line anyway!

Obviously I don't do this, I just wait for a bus we can all get on without folding the buggy (often means it takes us ages to get anywhere, school run takes DH 10-15 mins in the car but takes me about 2 hours on the bus). But threads which patronize parents with big buggies annoy me. Because some of us have reasons for having a big buggy, we didn't buy ours because we wanted pretty accessories.

nouvellevag Thu 19-Dec-13 11:09:14

I had a massive pushchair because when DD was born we lived down an unmade road full of ruts and potholes, so needed something with decent suspension, and because the ease of pushing it was kinder to my SPD-raddled pelvis. Then when she was six months old we unexpectedly moved to a city. I felt like a right twat wheeling The Beast onto buses until I'd saved for an umbrella-fold buggy, but what else could I do? I did my best to keep out of people's way.

Should also say that folding it up and carrying it, baby and bags would have been blooming difficult until the SPD finally went away completely. I'd never have minded getting off the bus for a wheelchair user, if I could have another ticket for the next one. Not everyone buys monster pushchairs or fails to fold them up out of thoughtlessness.

I really hope I can use a sling next time.

hazeyjane Thu 19-Dec-13 11:10:09

Hedgehog80, I bought a sticker like this had it laminated and attached it to the buggy before ds was issuedwith his sn buggy. This was after having to fold a couple of times for a baby in a pram, and having to miss an appointment as ds was hysterical at having to be woken up to get him out and fold.

GobbySadcase Thu 19-Dec-13 11:18:34

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sashh Thu 19-Dec-13 11:25:48

For my troubles the idiot told his girlfriend that if I was a bloke he would have smacked me in the mouth.

I hope you told him that that would not only be assault but also a hate crime.

Athrodiaeth Thu 19-Dec-13 11:26:40

Who holds the baby while I fold the pram?

Where do I put the folded buggy?

Who holds the baby while I put it all back together again?

Also, it's bigger folded than it is upright, so even fewer wheelchairs could get on.

Hedgehog80 Thu 19-Dec-13 11:26:53

Going to order one of those stickers thankyou

Trigglesx Thu 19-Dec-13 11:28:07

Gobby fgrin Have a brew. I am right there with you on that.

Trigglesx Thu 19-Dec-13 11:30:12

*Who holds the baby while I fold the pram?
Where do I put the folded buggy?
Who holds the baby while I put it all back together again?
Also, it's bigger folded than it is upright, so even fewer wheelchairs could get on.*

FFS If people are supposedly mature adults having babies, you'd think they could work these things out for themselves.

This isn't rocket science people. And if the buggy is so damn big, get a smaller one that's better to use on the bus.

Boggles the mind, it does. Seriously.

GobbySadcase Thu 19-Dec-13 11:31:06

Sorry. These pweshus mummies put my blood pressure through the roof.

I managed fine when mine were babies. It's as they got bigger and STILL needed changing facilities and wheels to get about it got hard.

And these smug ARSEHOLES just don't have a clue and call us entitled?

Dawndonnaagain Thu 19-Dec-13 11:31:45

Athro
1) You do what we older mums did - you hand the baby to somebody sitting nearby. Nobody is going to run off with your baby on a crowded bus.
2)When folded and standing up, I suspect your buggy isn't taking up as much room as it does when down with baby residing in it.

Gileswithachainsaw Thu 19-Dec-13 11:33:39

I've handed the baby to the driver before grin

And I always help if someone needs it.

AmberLeaf Thu 19-Dec-13 11:34:35

Athrodiaeth

What do you think people did before accessible buses?

YOU hold the baby, because you buy a buggy that can be folded one handed.

Buggy in luggage rack or hold it in front of your knees where you sit.

Your buggy may be big, but there are lots of umbrella style ones that you can buy, many that are suitable from birth.

People don't bother to choose a buggy with any of the above in mind, because they feel like they don't need to now that accessible buses exist.

autumnsmum Thu 19-Dec-13 11:35:43

I've handed dd2 to strangers while I've folded her buggy and it was fine

Trigglesx Thu 19-Dec-13 11:37:18

Some days I swear I just want to point out to some of these mummies "oh Look!!! Someone else had a baby too! You're NOT the only one on the planet!!" <gasp>

hmm

scottishmummy Thu 19-Dec-13 11:37:26

By law?there no law that specifically states buggy must be folded
This may be a stagecoach policy

hazeyjane Thu 19-Dec-13 11:38:29

The last time I got on a bus with ds, a lady got on with 2 under 2, in a double buggy, she didn't even blink when she saw ds in his buggy, I held the baby for her, and between us we folded the buggy and stood it next to ds's buggy.

It was very civilised and polite. There doesn't need to be a bunfight in order to accommodate everyone's needs.

hazeyjane Thu 19-Dec-13 11:42:38

Scottishmummy - I thought there was a case recently, where First buses were taken to court, and the equality act was cited. here

Dawndonnaagain Thu 19-Dec-13 11:42:47

scottishmummy there was a ruling in September that stated Wheelchair users have priority.

autumnsmum Thu 19-Dec-13 11:43:05

Hazey that's really nice I still use a pushchair for dd2 because of behaviour but I will always fold it for a wheelchair or. Newborn

hazeyjane Thu 19-Dec-13 11:43:09

Also, it shouldn't really have to be a law - just common decency.

Some of us put thought into travelling before we bought our baby transport system. I know I use public transport a lot. I know I'm not entitled to be on a bus with my buggy up. Therefore I bought an easily foldable slim stroller. Ironically I've only twice in 3 years been asked to fold - once I was only a stop away so I got off and the other time for a wheelchair user who shouted to the driver it was fine as it was a slim buggy and there was plenty of room for us both.

But lots of people don't think of how they travel, they just think of their convenience. So buy the buggy they like or that works with a car seat. Well sorry, if you can't think of anything more than your own convenience then I can't have sympathy with your system being hard to fold. I also don't see why they should issue you another ticket - you know when going on the bus you may be asked to fold it and you are choosing not to. Ok, that's harsh if you popped on in an emergency but most of the time people with untransport friendly buggies travel regularly.

BerniceBroadside Thu 19-Dec-13 12:24:27

It's a shame the bus companies can't issue a 'buggy used a wheelchair' badge on production of a blue badge or dla award etc, as they do in some theme parks etc. Would save people having to explain to idiots why their child actually isn't too big for a buggy and can't stand up. If all else failed you could give them a gentle clip round the lugs with it.

BerniceBroadside Thu 19-Dec-13 12:27:08

Eat riskier, some people can't fold due to their own disability. You can't make them get off and either pay again or walk.

Mind you, I'd be tempted to make the bloody trolley using aisle hoggers walk. They have no qualms about making a newborn stand in the snow, as long as they can get their bloody trolley on.

haveyourselfashandy Thu 19-Dec-13 12:29:54

I get the bus 4 times a day during the week and once my lo was big enough I bought a 20 pound pram from Tesco that's very lightweight and easy to fold down.I've only had to take her out 4 times and each time someone has offered to hold lo for me.The other day I was a few stops away from my stop and a dude in a wheelchair got on,the bus driver explained to me that I would have to put my pushchair down due to new rules(there was plenty of room).Not a problem,went to get my lo out and the guy in wheelchair kicked off on my behalf! The bus driver wasn't happy but told me to keep dd in pram.I would of been happy to get off bus and walk home but didn't dare suggest that I think the guy would of spontaneously combusted! He was mortified that such a fuss had been made when there was more than enough room.
He made me smile for the rest of the day though and even though I'd never seen him before since then I've seen him loads ha,always stop for a natter.

Bernice I completely appreciate that some disabled kids use buggies and some disabled people push them so its not always possible to fold. however they aren't the majority of the case and in my experience they are the ones who politely say they can't fold the buggy instead of ranting and raving at the indecency. however given I'm London based usually a quick flash of the disabled oyster card shuts idiots up who rant at the people who genuinely can't. but when there's nothing physically preventing you other than your own ill thought out choices then I still retain no sympathy and don't see why they should be reissued a ticket for a choice.

Fleta Thu 19-Dec-13 12:41:01

Oh dear how selfish of me - I had a "tank".

I also have a badly damaged ankle from sport in my late teens. My ankle can give way at the slightest bump in the pavement. I chose a pram that was weighty enough to help me if I was out and about and my ankle went. A sling simply wouldn't have been safe for us.

I was always perfectly happy to fold the pram if required. But like I said some patience and kindness isn't a big thing is it.

When DD was 5 weeks old I got called "a stupid fucking bitch" by a lady in a wheelchair for taking longer than she thought acceptable to fold the pram. She then screamed "how long are you fucking going to take" when I got off carrying baby and pram.

Luckily I'm very robust and told her in no uncertain terms that her language and attitude was not acceptable. A more vulnerable person may not be so lucky.

fragola Thu 19-Dec-13 12:42:08

I can't believe that some people think that a wheelchair user wanting to use the wheelchair space on a bus is expecting "special treatment". I fucking despair.

BerniceBroadside Thu 19-Dec-13 12:47:13

You do realise, eat riskier, that not everyone lives in London or has the funds to buy a suitable pram. Lots of people make do with a freebie from a friend or relative. The kind thing to do would make sure everyone is accommodated. Not sure why this is such an issue?

tiggytape Thu 19-Dec-13 12:47:22

When there weren't wheelchair spaces which buggies could sometimes rely on, people frequently stood in Mothercare and John Lewis doing their best "I'm on the bus and this is me folding my buggy one handed" impression.

There are lovely, luxurious buggies you can buy, not to mention gorgeous prams with jumbo wheels and acres of flat space for baby to snooze in. But you can't buy one of those if you expect to be using public transport - that's crazy!

Not everyone can afford a pram and a stroller too, so if you know you'll be using buses, you have to factor that in when you're purchasing a buggy and buy something that doesn't take up more space flat than upright or with huge wheels, sharp edges and that requires a degree in engineering to fold and unfold. You have to get something you can fold up (with help of a stranger holding the baby) to avoid being turfed off all the time.

Binkybix Thu 19-Dec-13 12:48:55

I do have a small pram I can fold with one hand. I don't fold though because I've struggled taking to motherhood and get really flustered and teary about everything, but also because bus drivers usually just speed off allowing no time to fold safely.

The one time it's been a problem I got off the bus.

Gileswithachainsaw Thu 19-Dec-13 12:49:13

When I went to pick up dd from school on a couple of occasions a woman tried to board with an absolutely massive buggy that wouldn't even fit in a buggy bay because of the pole. There was also someone else sat there. She then proceeded to tell te driver the pram was to big to collapse and parked it in the gangway. Every person getting off struggled to get by. I was amazed the driver let her do that tbh and she seemed to think there was no problem with completely blocking everyone on the bus. All to avoid collapsing her buggy.

PenguinsDontEatStollen Thu 19-Dec-13 12:53:44

These threads depress me.

The only element where I have sympathy with the 'buggy mum' is the issue of having to pay for a second bus ticket. You have no way of knowing you will be asked to fold or get off, and even with a slim buggy you may be. So you should be credited with a ticket for the next bus if you choose to disembark.

Other than that, I regularly travelled on the bus with young toddler and baby. You either fold, or you get off. And simply saying "Would someone hold the baby whilst i fold the buggy for this wheelchair user" normally results in a happy volunteer. If you choose to have an enormous buggy you have to accept you might have to just get off. Just as I sometimes chose to rather than redistribute shopping and wake a baby who'd just gone to sleep.

Bernice strangely I am fully aware not everyone lives in London. I'm also aware some people have to make do with donations. and I'm aware some people with these systems are remote enough to require taking them on public transport. but just because its not easy to fold them doesn't mean the choice isn't there. choice may suck but ultimately it exists which it doesn't for the disabled person.

Dawndonnaagain Thu 19-Dec-13 12:55:15

Oh dear how selfish of me - I had a "tank".

Oh dear how selfish of me, I was born with a disability and still can't walk at 17. hmm

Dd's dd.

Fleta Thu 19-Dec-13 13:00:28

Dawndonnaagain - you have clearly missed the rest of the post where I state how happy I am to move for someone who requires the space.

Blu Thu 19-Dec-13 13:05:28

If wheelchair users have to wait for a bus which does not have buggies in the space they may well wait for ever. Bugy users (mostly) have the option of folding the buggy and squeezing into a small space, or putting the buggy in the space and standing themselves. w/c users do not have that option.

In terms of equality within the bus as a whole there are, what, 90 seats and spaces that a w/c user cannot use and one space that they can. That is the designated w/c user space, just as the seats are designated able-bodied spaces. Maybe buggy-owners should have a fold-down buggy designated space.

But al in all I do not see provision for a w/c space and then prioritising a w/c user for that space a breach of equality.

BerniceBroadside Thu 19-Dec-13 13:05:55

But eat riskier, if someone can't fold (for whatever reason) or the microscopic luggage rack is full and they do the right thing and exit the bus to allow a wc user to board, then they shouldn't be financially penalised.

I wouldn't necessarily have an extra fiver in my pocket to pay for another ticket from my town to town b. And I could be kicked off the next bus too.

Seem perfectly fair that wc user boards and the person asked to leave is given another ticket. I'd expect the same if passengers were standing in the wc space and a wc user needed to board.

Shouldn't we be penalising the muppets who won't fold or leave, no those who are doing the right thing?

PenguinsDontEatStollen Thu 19-Dec-13 13:09:30

Riskier - It is also easy to say that when you're a Londoner with an Oyster card and where another ticket is a fairly small amount (what is it now? £1.20, been gone a while?). A lot of people are coming from the perspective of having to find another £3+, often in an awkward amount and correct change.

if you're willing to fold your buggy but you are still asked to get off then definitely a ticket should be reissued. just like if anyone else (not breaking t&cs of carriage) should/would be. if that isn't happening despite willingness I am pretty sure that's a different arm of discrimination isn't it?

kungfupannda Thu 19-Dec-13 13:10:00

These threads make me want to beat me head against a wall.

"Equality" is giving someone an equal chance to access a facility. A wheelchair user can only access a bus by using a wheelchair space. A non-wheelchair user can access any seat on a bus. If they choose not to do so because of their choice to use a non-foldable pram, that is entirely up to them. That does not mean that they get to block access to the single wheelchair space, thus absolutely denying any wheelchair user access to the bus.

Equality is not providing a disability-specific facility, and then expecting those with disabilities to share it with everyone else.

And entitlement? Really? The only entitlement on display in these situations is by people who have found it convenient to use a facility for those with disabilities, and do not wish to either vacate it when it is needed, or be subjected to a breath of criticism for not doing so.

The equality argument is utter bollocks because of simple maths. For every wheelchair user, there will be multiple buggy users. If the wheelchair user is not prioritised, there is a reasonable chance of them almost never being able to access the facility designed for them. In some areas there will almost always be a buggy on a bus. This could mean that a wheelchair user has to sit at the bus-stop for hours waiting for an empty slot. How is that equality?

kungfupannda Thu 19-Dec-13 13:10:59

x-posted with Blu

elliejjtiny Thu 19-Dec-13 13:12:44

So many threads on this subject and we are just going round in circles.

Wheelchair users have priority
If you can, get a buggy that folds easily
If you can't, wait for the next bus
SN buggies are wheelchairs too

Those are the rules.

Dawndonnaagain Thu 19-Dec-13 13:12:49

Fleta That was my daughter, she apologises unreservedly.

(She's in a mardy today which doesn't help and she does get a bit hacked off at these threads, more than once she has felt she has to justify her existence).

RodneyTheChristmasElf Thu 19-Dec-13 13:14:00

Bernice please don't be too harsh on those with shopping trolleys. They are often used by people with disabilities who couldn't manage without them.

Fleta Thu 19-Dec-13 13:15:14

Thanks Dawn - that's nice of her. She must get fed up.

My initial comment was to the people suggesting that everyone can manage with an umbrella fold - when really I can't.

I have never, EVER refused to move either by folding / getting off on the odd occasion and never would.

I am in London now. I've not always been. I know bus fares are more expensive elsewhere but then they'll be more if people have to sub for someone's choice. In fact it was living out of London that made me ensure I had a foldable option.

I also made this point to a friend a few days ago. Not that long ago you weren't allowed on a bus with an unfolded buggy. I think its only in the last decade in my home town they've allowed that, for a while despite disabled spaces unutilised you weren't allowed on by drivers unless you folded your buggy first.

Tubemole1 Thu 19-Dec-13 13:19:10

All buggies should be folded before boarding irrespective of whether a wheelchair user is on board.

And large P&T buggies should be banned altogether.

Discuss confused wink

Dawndonnaagain Thu 19-Dec-13 13:20:05

Fleta Apparently she has pmd you!
Right, now I'm elbowing her off, she's supposed to be revising!

makemineabacardi Thu 19-Dec-13 13:21:50

Where I am if I get the bus in the morning to nursery/work with DD in the pushchair, my time normally co-incides with a lovely girl in a wheelchair using the same bus.

I know she has priority, I always let her on first (although she has offered to let me on first before and I've always said no). There has always been enough space for her wheelchair on one side of the bus and my pushchair (a small stroller) on the other side.

If the day comes when only one of us can get on, of course she is priority and I've no problem with that whatsoever. Although the buses are once every 30 mins (thank you Stagecoach) so if and when this happens I'll be late for work - but this is the fault of the crappy bus company who cram us onto tiny buses that are full and don't run often enough.

Neither of us has a problem - but judging by the looks and comments we both get from other people on the bus when they have to move themselves, or their ridiculously large suitcases, neither of us has a right to be there.

Sharing a bus with a wheelchair user isn't stressful, it's the entitled non-wheelchair users, non-pushchair pushers that tut, roll their eyes and make comments that make the journey stressful.

BerniceBroadside Thu 19-Dec-13 13:24:20

Yes I know Rodney, but like with buggy users there seems to be a vocal minority who don't give a stuff about anyone else.

elliejjtiny Thu 19-Dec-13 13:27:14

Dawndonna your DD was spot on as always, no apology needed. Tell her I hope my DS2 grows up to have a determined attitude. I'm having problems taking my DS out in his wheelchair because he gets upset by all the stupid comments by random strangers. He's refusing to go into town now because of it. He's 5, he shouldn't have to deal with this. Not that anyone should mind you.

UptheChimney Thu 19-Dec-13 13:30:36

It has always been the case that wheelchairs have priority and it should be obvious to most people that a wheelchair user's needs outweighs the needs of a parent and a buggy (even if the baby is sleeping and the buggy is hard to fold and they have a ton of shopping etc)

Well, you might think it's that simple.

But wait -- I'm sure there'll be posters on this very thread maintaining that they can't fold their prams, and that they have just as much right as a wheelchair user to the space.

Every thread I've ever seen on this topic on MN has at least one such entitled idiot.

Dawndonnaagain Thu 19-Dec-13 13:31:29

Ellie In all fairness Fleta did say she would get off if needed.
Other than that, M says that you need to tell ds that he sits in his chair as if he is king and then whenever anyone looks he says, loudly: I know, I'm amazing aren't I. She says they either engage or look away. grin

dd your dd sounds wicked.

good wicked I mean blush

Dawndonnaagain Thu 19-Dec-13 13:42:20

grin She reckons she is, Eat

Fleta Thu 19-Dec-13 13:44:59

elliejjtiny - I have never ever made a stupid comment nor refused to get off the bus/move/fold my pram.

Dawn - your DD did indeed message me, she's lovely!

NurseRoscoe Thu 19-Dec-13 13:52:49

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

tiggytape Thu 19-Dec-13 13:59:02

Nurse - It isn't a grey area at all.

I really cannot believe there are people who think a wheelchair user should wait for as many buses as it takes to fit into THEIR wheelchair space. That's what those spaces are for - not buggies. The law requires wheelchair users have one place on the bus to sit and if there are no wheelchair users on that bus then the space can be used by a buggy. It is never the other way around - not morally and not in the eyes of the law.

There are lots of people who would benefit from or even need extra room on a bus but the only people who have it by law are those who are disabled. That is what the legal ruling said: A mother with a hospital appointment or a tiny baby isn't protected by law and has no rights to that space. A wheelchair user is protected by law and has a legal right to have that space vacated by everyone else and made available to them.

elliejjtiny Thu 19-Dec-13 14:01:33

Sorry Fleta I didn't mean you (I also have a tank like buggy because I can't use a little one and I always wait for the next bus, like you do). I wasn't really talking about buses either, it's the people who follow us round the shops saying "why is he in a wheelchair?, will he always be in it? etc who really upset DS because they just don't stop.

Dawndonna thanks, I'll tell him. One man called DS2 a cripple a couple of months ago shock. DS1 rolled his eyes and said "its called disabled". Thankfully neither of them know what the horrible words mean. When we got the wheelchair I was so excited about taking DS2 out in it. I thought finally the comments about him being too big/old for a buggy would stop. Unfortunately they have got worse.

tiggytape Thu 19-Dec-13 14:03:07

Wheelchair users do not have greater needs with regards to travelling to their destination in priority of any other people.

positive discrimination is still discrimination.

Unbelievable!! Some people just truly don't have a clue
How on earth do you even begin to explain what is wrong with that attitude but this is obviously why they've had to make it a law and make bus companies enforce it. If people really think disabled people have it easier than mothers with buggies and that any tiny move to help them is positive discrimination then no wonder we can't just rely on common sense and doing the decent thing.

JadedAngel Thu 19-Dec-13 14:06:37

Anyone who has any idea just what an enormous fucking hassle and never-ending palaver it is just existing in the world when you are reliant on a wheelchair, or caring for someone who is, would never question this.

It's a wheelchair space. Simple as that.

The travelling with a buggy issue is a temporary one that can be avoided by the use of a sling, or by walking with your own two legs, perhaps driving.

Many of those using a wheelchair on a bus are in that wheelchair for life with all the limitations, hassle and blooming hard work that goes along with it.

If mums/parents want buggy-dedicated spaces on buses, then get on and campaign for it.

maillotjaune Thu 19-Dec-13 14:13:14

On the subject of just being polite and helpful, I was on a bus where a pushchair user was asked to fold for a WC. Pushchair mother said she couldn't due to disability so other passengers helped her (fold and put up in getting off).

More of this type of thing helps everybody.

Incidentally those PP who were discussing tube use with a WC - my DM does it BUT has to drive to a station with a lift to get on, and her destinations are fairly limited too. Luckily she wants to use Waterloo for the South Bank a lot but the system as a whole is woefully inaccessible.

OhNoGeorge Thu 19-Dec-13 14:14:48

Bernice has it spot on. We should all try to accommodate everyone if possible. Of course wheelchair users take priority.

However. The amount of vitriol on this thread against people with 'large' buggies or who may not be able to fold is insane! So many posters have now pointed out many valid reasons why they might not be able to fold (disability, SPD, etc) so why all the judgy comments? As long as people are prepared to vacate the wheelchair space then what's the problem if people choose to use a larger buggy for reasons that aren't immediately obvious but are helpful to them?

Kendodd Thu 19-Dec-13 14:17:21

So glad I've got a car and don't travel by bus!

Honestly, it's no wonder cars are so popular if this is the reality of travelling by public transport.

One solution might be to design better buses with more fold up seats to create more floor space.

This thread does feel a little 'people with push chairs shouldn't be on buses' to me.

Fluffytent Thu 19-Dec-13 14:20:46

It's a v odd thread given its on mumsnet. I think some mothers may be of much older adult children who can't remember the feeling of being a newbie mum of twins on your own.

Before all the hissing vitriol- I agree on the use of wheelchair spaces. I don't agree with getting personal and crusade-y on an argument that has many different and valid viewpoints.

FanjoForTheMammaries Thu 19-Dec-13 14:24:16

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

FanjoForTheMammaries Thu 19-Dec-13 14:24:21

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

FanjoForTheMammaries Thu 19-Dec-13 14:24:56

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

FanjoForTheMammaries Thu 19-Dec-13 14:25:05

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

OhNoGeorge Thu 19-Dec-13 14:25:06

It's very odd and a little depressing. Very much that 'you brought it on yourself by having children'. Is being nice to other people way too much to ask these days?! Apparently we should all go out and buy (with all the spare cash floating around) a lightweight stroller just in case one day we might need to fold it on a bus. I've never come across this and would gladly get off the bus if needed. I've got two under two and severe SPD so I'm going to stick to making my day to day life easier and not worry about the odd situation where I might need to move for somebody (which of course I would!).

FanjoForTheMammaries Thu 19-Dec-13 14:25:21

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

FanjoForTheMammaries Thu 19-Dec-13 14:25:22

Don't give those wheelchair users special treatment. It's what they want. .In fact get rid of ramps and they can try to drag themselves upstairs. hmm

FanjoForTheMammaries Thu 19-Dec-13 14:26:17

Oops.

Don't install lifts either. That is positive discrimination.

OhNoGeorge Thu 19-Dec-13 14:26:50

Fanjo that's seriously disingenuous, no one has said anything remotely resembling that confused (earlier in the thread some people did but they got resoundly shot down)

FanjoForTheMammaries Thu 19-Dec-13 14:27:40

Oops.

Don't install lifts either. That is positive discrimination.

Will ask mNHq to delete my extra posts

FanjoForTheMammaries Thu 19-Dec-13 14:28:00

Oops.

Don't install lifts either. That is positive discrimination.

Will ask mNHq to delete my extra posts

hopskipandthump Thu 19-Dec-13 14:29:40

I have a disability which makes folding my pushchair difficult. I would gladly get off the bus for a wheelchair. It has only happened once (I don't use the bus much due to my disability, also can't drive, so have to stick to local area). On that occasion I started getting off and was stopped by the driver who said he could easily fit both me and the wheelchair in - and he did.

But there is no question that the wheelchair should get on. I only have a few years of using a pushchair, not a lifetime, I can cope with the inconvenience for that temporary time.

JadedAngel Thu 19-Dec-13 14:31:12

If all the buggy pushers on this thread would willingly get off or fold to make way for a designated user of a wheelchair space then why not just say that, instead of all the self-justification and woe is me, life is so hard with a buggy in tow...

Just use common sense. Of course there will be times when it's bloody hard for a parent with a buggy, their own health conditions and lots of DC/bags in tow. People will help you. Just ask. And don't come on threads like this lashing out about equality and positive discrimination.

Fleta Thu 19-Dec-13 14:31:13

Ellie - that's appalling your poor little boy. If we ever, EVER comment it would be to answer a question that DD would ask and it would always, ALWAYS be a positive comment. "Cripple" is just horrendous sad

The travelling with a buggy issue is a temporary one that can be avoided by the use of a sling, or by walking with your own two legs, perhaps driving.

Except for some people it really isn't that easy - but like I said I would always move without quibble for someone who needed the space.

When DD was around 2 we moved to a rural location and I now drive everywhere.

But then of course you get told that "no-one can possibly NEED two cars, use public transport" grin

AmberLeaf Thu 19-Dec-13 14:52:54

The amount of vitriol on this thread against people with 'large' buggies or who may not be able to fold is insane! So many posters have now pointed out many valid reasons why they might not be able to fold (disability, SPD, etc) so why all the judgy comments? As long as people are prepared to vacate the wheelchair space then what's the problem if people choose to use a larger buggy for reasons that aren't immediately obvious but are helpful to them?

Those with valid reasons [due to their own disability] are not being judged.

Those who choose to buy large buggies because that is what they want are and they make up the majority.

Apparently we should all go out and buy (with all the spare cash floating around) a lightweight stroller just in case one day we might need to fold it on a bus

No, if you know that you will use buses at some point, then it makes sense to get a buggy that enables you to do so in the first place. Umbrella fold up buggies are much cheaper than the big ones anyway.

nurseroscoe

If it is safe and reasonable to fold the pushchair then a person should do this out of courtesy and respect

No, not out of courtesy and respect. They should do it because the law says wheelchair users have priority.

OhNoGeorge Thu 19-Dec-13 14:58:38

I give up. Clearly when all the PPs have judged people with 'large' buggies they have asked each and every person whether they have a valid reason to do so and are therefore only judging those who don't. FFS.

JadedAngel Thu 19-Dec-13 14:59:25

And it's really pretty easy to pick up an umbrella fold stroller on freecycle or cheap on eBay, or borrowed from a friend, if you're a regular bus user, to make your own life and that of others easier.

JadedAngel Thu 19-Dec-13 15:02:38

Have any of the people who want better provision for buggies on buses actually started a campaign yet? If it's that important to you, and you don't want to fold or get off when required, then start a campaign for better bus design.

I guess the reason no-one has bothered is because it's a temporary inconvenience rather than a lifelong challenge.

Gileswithachainsaw Thu 19-Dec-13 15:02:59

Exactly jaded

You stand more chance of not actually having to fold it if you do so.

Strollers jam into much smaller spaces so you won't necessarily need to use the buggy bay

AmberLeaf Thu 19-Dec-13 15:03:44

Ok OhnoGeorge. Every single big buggy wheelchair space hogging person also has a valid reason why they can't use an umbrella buggy. Course they do. So no one should judge them or assume.

Meanwhile in the real world...

PeachyPlumFairy Thu 19-Dec-13 15:07:16

I always used to worry I'd sound smiley or sanctimonious on these threads but sod it.

I have used public transport in and off,on occasion with 4 son's, 3 with autism.without EVER touching the wheelchair space. Including when I had 2 under two and was stuck on busy commuter run.

Frankly if I, as a rather useless unorganized woman can, so can anyone without a disabled child.

OhNoGeorge Thu 19-Dec-13 15:08:23

That's not what I meant at all. All I'm trying to say is - why does anyone even need to be judged??!! If someone is on a bus with a buggy, big or small, and they're not in anyone's way and they will get off if a wheelchair user needs the space why should it matter to anyone else if they've got a bigger or smaller buggy?! Maybe they do have a 'valid' reason for having one, maybe they don't, but who cares?! (Apparently lots of people on this thread).

It's just not a very nice way to treat people, as PPs have said, new mums struggling with twins, PND, SpD, the list goes on - can't we just try to accommodate everyone wherever possible?

BerniceBroadside Thu 19-Dec-13 15:09:55

I don't think the size of buggy matters (other than a small one being easier to fold), it's whether the person using it is a dick or not that's really the issue.

OhNoGeorge Thu 19-Dec-13 15:12:58

Well quite but you get those regardless of whether they're attached to a buggy grin

Gileswithachainsaw Thu 19-Dec-13 15:15:36

Sometimes they are even the driver!! -/arse holes who don't want to get off and put the buggies in the luggage space when parents have already collapsed and got toddlers out ready to NOT potentially take up the wheelchair space--

Gileswithachainsaw Thu 19-Dec-13 15:15:53

fail

tiggytape Thu 19-Dec-13 15:24:08

No problem at all with people who have a buggy of any size or design.

The only judging was for the parents who use the fact that they have such a big buggy as an excuse for not folding it down (not refering here to disabled children in buggies of course but parents with great big prams basically saying it is impossible to fold them because they are so huge and therefore they shouldn't be expected to).

Trigglesx Thu 19-Dec-13 15:31:52

OhNoGeorge The problem is not actually the size of the buggy, but the attitude behind the person with the buggy. Honestly, I don't care what type of buggy they have, but unless it's a Mac Major or other SNs buggy, I'd prefer they move it so I can put my 7yo and his wheelchair in the wheelchair space. Having to wait for a number of buses simply because every bus has between 2-4 people crammed in with buggies who refuse to move for those with a wheelchair is ridiculous and simply not right, and drivers should be enforcing that the place is specifically for WC users and making the buggies either get folded or moved.

Trigglesx Thu 19-Dec-13 15:33:27

I'm quite grateful that I have a car and rarely need to use the bus at the moment, because to be honest it makes an already stressful outing even more stressful - both for myself and for DS1 (and DS2 if he is with us).

What happens to your ticket if you get kicked off due to no space and a wheelchair user wanting to get on - does your ticket work on the next bus to come along? I'd be mad as hell if I was kicked off and had to buy a new ticket - there isn't enough storage space or safe ways to store multiple buggies on most busses so I imagine a few will just get told to wait for the next bus... not an issue if the tickets are valid for the next bus too.

GobbySadcase Thu 19-Dec-13 15:43:37

Fluffy in I haven't forgotten what it's like - granted not twins but a 14 month old that didn't walk and newborn.

At the time I dealt with it by thinking "this too will pass".

It didn't. I now have two children who have to use wheelchairs outside so I can't go out with my kids without another adult present unless I use the motability car I now have due to the degree of disability I have.

But I have had a couple of times having to use buses in London recently for hospital appointments, with a wheelchair and SN buggy. Not enhanced by the mummy mafia who believed we were entitled to use a space specifically designed for the kids' needs.

Oh by the way the 'go fuck yourself' 'pweshus mummies' and 'mummy mafia' comments I've made are for the asshats on this thread and elsewhere who believe the fact they've reproduced trumps the hard fought for rights of disabled people. It doesn't.

GobbySadcase Thu 19-Dec-13 15:44:18

Sorry degree of disability THEY have.

Sirzy Thu 19-Dec-13 15:47:40

I have never seen why this even becomes an issue, it wouldn't be if people weren't so self centered.

No reason someone who uses a wheelchair, or special needs buggy, should be unable to access the space designated for them unless it is already in use by someone else with a wheelchair/SN buggy.

If you have a pram and the space is free fantastic, but when someone else wants to use the space then you move and allow them to do so.

justwondering72 Thu 19-Dec-13 15:54:09

ummm ... coming at this from a different angle, why not put the onus on the public transport companies to provide adequate services, facilities and infrastructure to meet the needs of all their users, wheelchair users and buggies alike? seems to me everyone fighting over a scarce resource. so why not remove the competition and require transport companies to take something other than profits into account.

I don't live in the UK now, but the European city where I do live is about the same size as Edinburgh. both the trams and metro are fully wheel chair accessible, and even the buses are big enough and designed to accommodate a wheelchair plus up to two non-folded buggies. it can be done.

on a recent trip to the UK my family and I got on a bus in our home town with Ds1 asleep in a buggy. about half way home another woman with a buggy, plus toddler, shopping and a new baby got on. the driver told her she'd have to fold the buggy and somehow hold the shopping, baby and toddler because only one unfolded buggy was allowed on. the bus was quiet and there were no wheelchairs on. he refused to move until she did so. so DH got off with our sleeping boy and walked several stops home rather than hang around for another bus that there was no guarantee of getting in and for which he'd have to pay again. the UK has a long long way to go in terms of providing decent public transport that is accessible to all users.

TondelayoSchwarzkopf Thu 19-Dec-13 16:01:45

All those of you flapping your gums about breeding entitlement and not wishing yo be treated differently - get fucked.

^This.

UptheChimney Thu 19-Dec-13 16:05:49

Wheelchair users do not have greater needs with regards to travelling to their destination in priority of any other people

I cannot beieve I am reading this, and from a poster who talks of her own disability!

Do you not get the contradiction NurseRoscoe? Unbelievable!

Don't people understand? Wheelchair users have no choice and it's for life. Using a pushchair/pram/stroller is a choice: there are so many models to choose from. And babies grow into walking people, if you're lucky. Try being in a wheelchair every day of your life.

Just think about it, FFS.

hopskipandthump Thu 19-Dec-13 16:06:02

Well, justwondering, fine, put the onus on the transport companies to make the buses accessible to everyone. They're not very accessible to me as a blind person, actually, for quite different reasons. How are you suggesting we do that? Are you starting the campaign?

BUT UNTIL THAT HAPPENS, WHEELCHAIR USERS GET PRIORITY ON THE WHEELCHAIR SPACES

I'm not a wheelchair user and don't even know any, but it is just obvious - can't understand how anyone is arguing otherwise.

UptheChimney Thu 19-Dec-13 16:13:47

And I've told this story before, but I have been on a crowded bus when the parents using the WHEELCHAIR SPACE flatly refused to get off or fold up for a wheelchair user. They laughed at him, and laughed at the bus driver.

He was left sitting at the bus stop, uncovered, in the pouring rain.

Despicable.

Dawndonnaagain Thu 19-Dec-13 16:24:01

Wheelchair users do not have greater needs with regards to travelling to their destination in priority of any other people.

So you'd be quite happy for my daughter to sit in her own piss in snow and end up in hospital?

Of course she has greater need than others travelling, as do many people with disabilities. Unfortunately, she has fewer chances to excersize her greater need and right to travel because there is only one, or if she is lucky two spaces on a bus. TWO FUCKING SPACES, have you got that. Millions of people travelling every day, with numerous options whilst some people have twats quibbling over the only two fucking spaces that are available to them.
I'm one of the people that spent half the seventies and a fair bit of the eighties fighting for those spaces, that was before I had my dd and still I fought for the right (yes, the right) for disabled people to be able to travel in the same fashion that others do. I didn't actually consider the rights of mothers whose children would grow up without diffficulties because they were in fact being met. hmm

ShinyBauble Thu 19-Dec-13 16:24:08

When DS was a baby I got about by bus, no spaces, no flat floors. I was never offered any help or asked for any.

I put the baby on one shoulder (or under an arm once he got bigger), folded and picked up the buggy, with the changing bag and shopping hooked on the same wrist, so I had an arm free to pay and take my ticket. After reading this thread I feel like Superwoman! grin

Dawndonnaagain Thu 19-Dec-13 16:24:48

exercise damnit janet!

FeastOfPhteven Thu 19-Dec-13 16:28:08

I've been made to get off a bus before because I refused to fold my buggy down for a wheelchair user. The problem was though, that my buggy was in fact a Mac Major for my child with SN, he was only three at the time. Mother with twins who got on before me refused to fold, fair enough, but I couldn't fold as the buggy has a huge footplate, my child would have had a massive melt down if removed from said buggy and I was 8 months pregnant.

I sent a rather harsh worded email to the bus company (Stagecoach) and was issued an apology and a letter to hand to any driver who disputed the fact the mac major wasnt a wheelchair. They also gave some training for everyone wrt children in wheelchairs /SN buggies.

I was also one of those parents who had a pram with carrycot that didn't fold well and who got the bus. I got off when needed though and usually walked the rest of the way if I had to get off.

Sirzy Thu 19-Dec-13 16:31:20

It isn't even about saying disabled people have greater need/right to access the bus. Its simply about giving them something making their chances of getting on the bus more equal.

I am able bodied, even when I am with a child in a buggy I am still able bodied and therefore with a bit of juggling can access the bus and pick from a selection of seats. Wheelchair users don't have that luxury they have to hope that one of the few areas on the bus which they can access is actually accessible to them.

ProudAS Thu 19-Dec-13 17:16:59

Apologies if this has been said but I haven't read the whole thread.

I have a colleague who just about manages not to use a wheelchair but suffers with severe arthritis. She was scared to use the bus on her own when DC was in buggy as she could not fold it and waiting in cold, damp conditions for next bus could have crippled her. If the likes of her are to be expected to fold then some adjustment must be in place e.g. guarantee of help with folding and unfolding.

tiggytape Thu 19-Dec-13 17:18:01

why not put the onus on the public transport companies to provide adequate services, facilities and infrastructure to meet the needs of all their users, wheelchair users and buggies alike?

Great - fine. But until they do, the spaces are for wheelcahirs.

And it isn't out of the goodness of their hearts that bus companies have a vacabt space now. The only reason wc spaces exist at all is because wc users are protected in law and the law forces these companies to adapt their buses to take them.
There's nothing in the law about buggies. If it was just buggy users in the equation, they'd be no empty spaces on buses at all (unless they too fought for years to get them).

However tricky a baby / twins / shopping is, it doesn't compare with the daily, lifelong problems a wc user has and the fact that they have no choice about it whereas every pushchair user does. That's what the law says and that's what common sense dictates too.

JollySparklyGiant Thu 19-Dec-13 17:25:19

My buggy doesn't actually fold when the carrycot is attached. A silly design, but there you go. I chose the buggy on the basis that I rarely use public transport. If I do it's a train. And I'd probably put DD in the car seat with the buggy wheels attached if we were getting the train.

Here bus fares are insane. So you'd probably be looking at £4 at least if you had to switch buses and the driver refused to give you some kind of ticket.

ProudAS Thu 19-Dec-13 17:34:53

Tiggytape ALL disabled people are protected by law not just the 5% who use a wheelchair.

My colleague's journey us just as important as a wheelchair user's no matter how many notices the bus company puts up. And she is well aware of the daily challenges facing disabled people due to being one herself.

Standing around in cold, wet conditions waiting fir next bus could be very debilitating and she has as much right as an able bodied parent to complete her journey.

No doubt all you MNERS will say that you would assist her to fold if a wheelchair needed the space but what if you are getting off before her and there is nobody to help unfold at her destination? Do you know whether the driver would do it or would regulations stop him?

GingerNinja28 Thu 19-Dec-13 17:36:57

IME mums with buggies are treated like the scum of the earth on buses.

When DS was a week old I had to get a bus to a hospital appointment. On the bus there was a buggy space and a wheelchair space, the former was being taken up by a woman with a shopping cart so I parked in the wheelchair space. At a later stop a wheelchair user needed to get on and before I could attempt to move the bus driver shouted at me to move my pram, the woman with the shopping cart refused to move her cart over for me, luckily the wheelchair user was lovely and managed to get his chair next to shopping cart lady (who moved her cart over for him). On the way back a bus drove straight past another woman with a buggy who was signalling for it to stop, the bus was nearly empty. It was my first trip out with DS, I was so nervous and still feeling the after effects of the c section, so I could have done with some help folding rather then being shouted at. It has really put me off travelling by bus, which I would need to do if I go out anywhere as I live out in the sticks and don't drive. So now I only go out with DS when DP gets home and can drive me or out at the weekend, I would love to take him out during the day more and feel like I spend an unhealthy amount of time in the house so we are saving for a second car.

Of course wheelchair users should have priority, but I think bus drivers and other passengers should be a bit kinder to mums.

Fluffytent Thu 19-Dec-13 17:41:56

There is in health and safety law a scale if you will on vulnerability.

Children are seen as being more vulnerable than an adult in most circumstances. So although- agreed- wheelchair spaces are for wheelchairs though...

...the bus company may not be fully covered if say a lady juggling a pram and newborn, and god forbid the newborn is hurt due to pressure to collapse the pram.

Just being pragmatic. The debate on the one space itself is a red herring I feel. As others have said a serious overall of the London transport system is needed, that takes account of the types of passengers and numbers travelling to make things equal for all users.

CrohnicallySick Thu 19-Dec-13 17:44:41

Ginger- you did well to get out of the house on your own a week after c section!

I agree a bit of kindness and compassion would go a long way, I would definitely struggle to fold a buggy (yes, even a one handed umbrella fold) as DD isn't walking yet, and I struggle to carry her (even though I look fit and well).

I do take DD in a sling for things like hospital appointments, but I can't go out for long with her in it because of not being able to carry all her stuff! For day trips I need the buggy to hang the changing bag!

GobbySadcase Thu 19-Dec-13 17:46:02

Hmm. Think the Equality Act might just trump fictitious H&S stories.

I'll be nicer to buggy mummies when they consider how their actions impact upon my children, yeah? Cos thus far they've done more to my kids than a tiny bit of inconvenience.

tiggytape Thu 19-Dec-13 17:47:05

Tiggytape ALL disabled people are protected by law not just the 5% who use a wheelchair.

Yes I know that - badly worded sorry. As the mother of a child with 'invisible' disabilities that affect her mobility but that don't require a wheelchair, getting people to understand her needs is something I struggle with a lot so it is even worse I phrased it so badly.

Kendodd Thu 19-Dec-13 17:51:22

I'll be nicer to buggy mummies when they consider how their actions impact upon my children, yeah? Cos thus far they've done more to my kids than a tiny bit of inconvenience.

Sounds like you go out of your way to be mean to them from that post. You should be nice to everyone, why wouldn't you be.

CrohnicallySick Thu 19-Dec-13 17:52:13

ShinyBauble- as far as I am concerned you ARE superwoman! I can barely carry DD and the bag, I have to put DD in the sling to walk 2 mins from the car to wherever. It's something to do with the one handedness- I can carry her just fine with 2 arms but throw a bag into the equation and I can't do it.

Annonynon Thu 19-Dec-13 17:52:41

I'm really hoping the signs will clarify things a bit because really this is a black and white issue

The spaces are for wheelchairs, if empty they can be used but if a wheelchair user needs them they must be vacated

Of course it will be more of a struggle for some than others, in an ideal world there would be provisions for anyone who needs them. I do feel sorry for parents with pushchairs who can't fold for one reason or another but that doesn't change the fact that wheelchair users have priority to wheelchair (not disabled) spaces and that's the way it should be

Fluffytent Thu 19-Dec-13 17:54:07

Errr, DH is a lawyer, mortal injury is considered before any perceived discriminatory issues.

Like I said, I think those in wheelchairs have a right to their space. No problem, but quite simply there are only 1/2 of these spaces and that is causing the friction- lets not take it out on the people.

scottishmummy Thu 19-Dec-13 18:01:30

Perhaps he'll post and clarify then,as opposed to your my husband says

GobbySadcase Thu 19-Dec-13 18:07:17

Any passenger travelling in a bus is unrestrained. Therefore everyone has the same risk in an accident.

I don't think you'd get very far with that line of argument.

candycoatedwaterdrops Thu 19-Dec-13 18:09:18

I am not a wheelchair user nor a pram user, so I feel I can be impartial in that my personal experience does not sway me.

The spaces are there because disabled rights campaigners worked their arses off for them. If you want pram spaces, then go right ahead and work your arses off for them. I will happily support you but I will not support anyone making excuses as to why the won't move out of the space unless they or the child are also disabled. Being anxious about faffing about with a buggy is not a valid reason to refuse to move!

GobbySadcase Thu 19-Dec-13 18:09:39

S'funny... I have friends who believe all pushchair users (not SN buggies) should have to fold - no questions - to stop the entitled behaviour of the buggy mafia.

I didn't think that way originally but I'm starting to go that way.

ProudAS Thu 19-Dec-13 18:12:17

Annonyon the equality act applies as much to a disabled parent as it does to a wheelchair user. The bus company must make reasonable adjustments.

Bus companies cannot say the vehicle is laid out in such and such a way so one disabled group has priority over another when both bred use if the facility. They could put adjustments in place to allow one group not to need the facility however.

candycoatedwaterdrops Thu 19-Dec-13 18:14:40

I struggle to believe that every single person who refuses to fold their buggy is disabled or has a disabled child.

Sirzy Thu 19-Dec-13 18:17:18

Perhaps a simple card which can be carried by people who have a more invisible disability, or their child has a disability which means they will struggle to put a pram down if needed. That way the driver knows that either he/other passengers need to help if it needs to go down or they get to keep the space if it is needed.

That would hopefully make it easier for drivers to make others fold if needed - including for those who have medical reasons they couldn't

MoominsYonisAreScary Thu 19-Dec-13 18:20:57

I've never been on a bus where someone with a wheel chair has wanted to get on. I have been on a bus with my double and someone else was on with a small umbrella pushchair, which the child wasn't even sat in. Yet still the women refused to fold it for a women wanting to get on with her newborn. Some people are just selfish arseholes

Retropear Thu 19-Dec-13 18:25:34

I wonder what would happen if you couldn't,would they boot you off?I had 3 under 15 months and a double buggy with buggy board.Not enough arms.If you were already on would you have to get off?

MoominsYonisAreScary Thu 19-Dec-13 18:31:01

I think if someone in a wheelchair got on you should get off, regardless of how many young dc you have.

Years ago when my first was born we had no choice, we just had to fold or walk

Fluffytent Thu 19-Dec-13 18:32:45

And years ago there were no spaces for wheelchair users. Times thankfully have changed and now are more fair.

Retropear Thu 19-Dec-13 18:37:29

Um yes in theory however those of us living in the country or even some cities get on for a 30 min or more journey sometimes a long way way from anywhere on dodgy roads.Booting a mother or very young children out miles way from their destination on dodgy roads after they've paid their exorbitant bus fare is at best not very nice and actually slightly risky.

AmberLeaf Thu 19-Dec-13 18:38:21

Having a baby in a buggy is not a disability.

GobbySadcase Thu 19-Dec-13 18:38:48

So fold then?

AmberLeaf Thu 19-Dec-13 18:40:10

I get your point Retropear, but the same could apply to leaving a wheelchair user at the same roadside because there was a buggy in the wheelchair users space

Fluffytent Thu 19-Dec-13 18:40:24

Exactly. Like I said, an evaluation of bus users is needed. No one should be turfed off or put at risk (which is where my DH would have something to say!)

Sirzy Thu 19-Dec-13 18:43:04

I don't see how expecting able bodied people to fold a buggy is putting anyone at risk.

The risk of leaving a disabled person stood in the cold/wet/midday sun is probably much higher.

Retropear Thu 19-Dec-13 18:43:07

Never said it was but mums of multiples could have a problem with this if they've got on,paid and have moved miles off away from home.It's not that easy to hold 2 newborns,juggle a toddler,fold a buggy then keep all 3 safe on a bus journey.

I guess they could just be banned,but then given many families can't now afford 2 cars it could make life quite hard.

Retropear Thu 19-Dec-13 18:45:08

Excluding one group for another isn't progress imvho.

Perhaps a bit of thought and compromise wouldn't go amiss.

Why don't people ask for help? instead of juggling multiple babies ask for help. In my experience most people are willing to give you hand if you ask them.

Sirzy Thu 19-Dec-13 18:47:00

Well campaign for designated spaces for prams.

No matter how many children you have with you it is still 9 times out of 10 easier for you to be flexible than it is for the person in the wheelchair. Yes it may take some juggling but at least you have the option to do that.

Fluffytent Thu 19-Dec-13 18:48:01

No one should be excluded or put at risk. I think most people if they can will fold, but those as is retropears case raise valid concerns too.

maxomummy Thu 19-Dec-13 18:48:16

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

needaholidaynow Thu 19-Dec-13 18:48:29

As I've said before, give the person with the pushchair a chance to sort themselves out without being an arse with them (whether you're the driver, the wheelchair user or an impatient grump sat on the other seats) then fine. Otherwise some people with prams are going to get miffed by people's stinking attitudes. smile

Chip on shoulder? Me? Na!

AmberLeaf Thu 19-Dec-13 18:52:55

The chance to sort yourself out, i you cant cope with it on the bus, is at the bus stop before the bus comes.

Surely everyone has just as much right to be there and a pram can't always be collapsed

No everyone does not have as much right to be there. Check out the link upthread. Wheelchair users have priority.

hazeyjane Thu 19-Dec-13 18:54:13

maxomummy

It. Is. A. Wheelchair. Space.

Retropear Thu 19-Dec-13 18:54:15

Oh perleeeeease.

I'm sure many would but you can't rely on others,there may no be any,there my not be space and if you have 2 18 month olds not keen on being handed over to any Tom,Dick or Harry it isn't that easy.

I could only get on buses if I could leave the buggy up as the massseeeeve bag of crap on the back made it impossible to fold quickly and it kept the dtwins safe and confined ie seated whilst I held either one and the baby was in the buggy.

All I'm saying is before you froth and demonise all buggy users a bit of empathy wouldn't go amiss for those with multiples.

Retropear Thu 19-Dec-13 18:56:04

Sirzy multiple mums don't have the option as they don't have enough arms.

Sirzy Thu 19-Dec-13 18:56:11

But retro - you make it so nobody had to not get on the bus. Ok it may not be easy but surely it's better than leaving someone stranded until the next bus comes along and they have to hope they can get on that?

needaholidaynow Thu 19-Dec-13 18:56:25

I can cope with it on the bus as long as people don't start getting their knickers in a twist because they have to wait and if someone is willing to hold my little darling if I'm on my own.

Sirzy Thu 19-Dec-13 18:56:48

Sit the children on a seat on the bus, ask someone else to help - you have many more options than most wheelchair users.

Dawndonnaagain Thu 19-Dec-13 18:57:02

maxo I too had twins. I had a 19month old too. I folded and I had other bus users helped too.
As is pointed out upthread, you have choices, they are choices my dd does not have. Nor will she ever have. You and your babies can get on the bus, you can walk, you can move about you can get help and once on and sorted you can sit anywhere you damn well like. My dd has the choice of one, at best two areas in which to sit. On top of all this, if you are left standing in the rain, at worst your little ones may get a cold. My daughter might die. So, next time you want a rant regarding the status of second class citizens, think first. Think about the fact that my very beautiful seventeen year old daughter has to fight for everything, every day. She has to fight to go shopping with her friends, she has to fight the moronic comments in the street and supermarket and school. She has to fight to breathe some days. And each and every day of her life she is treated like a second class citizen.

Retropear Thu 19-Dec-13 18:57:03

And if they are already on they can't get off.

BerniceBroadside Thu 19-Dec-13 18:57:36

Because, maxo, whilst you can plonk a baby on a stranger whilst you fold the buggy, it's a little more difficult to sit an adult on a stranger's knee so you can fold their wc. Yes, it can be an inconvenience for a buggy user, but it's not impossible as it is for a wheelchair user.

And realistically, it doesn't happen very often. In three or four years of buggy using I only had to fold for a wheelchair a handful of times. Mostly it was tesco tessie with her trolley that meant I had to fold. Or people who left empty buggies at the front and refused to fold.

I suspect most people are quite glad that you don't use public transport.

needaholidaynow Thu 19-Dec-13 18:57:39

Bottom like, I ain't getting off that bus! smile

needaholidaynow Thu 19-Dec-13 18:58:23

*Bottom line, I ain't getting off that bus!

smile

southeastastra Thu 19-Dec-13 18:58:32

i have been on a bus with a wheelchair user and the wheelchair space is already taken, no end of fun. buses seem to be so badly designed these days, feel bad for everyone affected by it, the need more open spaces near the front of the buses to cater for as many people as needed.

AmberLeaf Thu 19-Dec-13 18:58:38

Reins and a backpack would be very useful in that scenario Retropear.

If you had had your twins before accessible spaces were on buses, what do you think you'd have done? Granted it is a struggle with more than one child, but it isn't impossible.

Parents dealt with this issue or years.

Retropear Thu 19-Dec-13 18:59:12

Sorry booting a mother out with 2 newborns or babies and a barely walking toddler 20 miles from home on a dodgy road isn't progress it's nasty.

I only get my knickers in a twist when the buggy user is refusing to move out of the wheelchair space purely for the reason of they were there first and CBA.

SpikeyChristmasTree Thu 19-Dec-13 19:01:01

People with disabilities campaigned relentlessly to get access to buildings, public toilets, public transport. I've spent many a day with my dad and a placard. If parents are desperate not to fold their buggy, how about starting a campaign yourself?

As for pleas for people to be a bit nicer to mothers, try having a disability. Try being abused, talked to like you are stupid, ignored, threatened, isolated. Try having some empathy for people sitting at a bus stop for hours in the cold because people repeatedly refuse to fold a buggy, before you ask others to have it for your reproductive choices.

My mother managed to get five children, a folded buggy, herself and her crutch on and off a bus with steps. She had no choice as there were no wheelchair spaces in those days. She had to do it alone as dad had to stay at home because public transport wasn't wheelchair accessible.

BerniceBroadside Thu 19-Dec-13 19:01:04

Have you ever actually seen it happen, retropear?

needaholidaynow Thu 19-Dec-13 19:01:24

I agree Retro that's why people should have to wait if you absolutely have to fold your pram down. Kicking a parent and their children off the bus wherever you are is not on.

GobbySadcase Thu 19-Dec-13 19:01:29

So a person's CHOICE to reproduce trumps the rights of someone who has NOT CHOSEN to be disabled..

That person's CHOICE of whether to fold or not trumps the wheelchair user's INABILITY TO CHOOSE to not use the wheelchair.

Hmm. I'd say anyone who can't understand the concept is either pigshit thick or an entitled, ignorant twat who cannot comprehend that some things in life may cause inconvenience to them and their pweshus progeny. Those irritations may not just be an irritation to a wheelchair user, they may risk their health or dignity because of the selfishness shown by others.

Dawndonnaagain Thu 19-Dec-13 19:01:54

But retro, if you get help then that isn't going to happen.

AmberLeaf Thu 19-Dec-13 19:03:18

We used to fold our buggies before we got on the bus.

If having to get of the bus because a wheelchair user gets on is very problematic for you, then fold before you get on. It is do-able.

Sirzy Thu 19-Dec-13 19:03:57

NOBODY NEEDS TO BE BOOTED OUT

the way to stop anyone having to miss their trip is by parents with prams showing the common decency to 'allow' people in wheelchairs to use the space designated to them.

Other bus users then need to show that same level of common decency to help the parent with the pram if needed.

Retropear Thu 19-Dec-13 19:04:11

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

BerniceBroadside Thu 19-Dec-13 19:04:36

I suspect it's about fifty million times more likely that you'd have to fold for another buggy, than for a wc.

AmberLeaf Thu 19-Dec-13 19:04:42

Bottom line, I ain't getting off that bus!

You may find you have to if the bus driver tells you to. If you don't and he refuses to move the bus, you will get even more tuts from other bus users.

Buying a ticket entitles you to one thing only, a ride on the public transport. Not a seat, not a space and not comfort. This is the same for anyone. The only people who are entitled to a space are the first (and sometimes second if the transport in question is set up for two) wheelchair user that comes along. Allowing you on with an unfolded buggy, multiple or otherwise, is a privilege and not a right.

AmberLeaf Thu 19-Dec-13 19:06:31

Oh do one with the reins and backpack.You try it

I did try it. That's what made using buses with a buggy and more than one child do-able.

FairyJen Thu 19-Dec-13 19:06:59

I think the pp idea about a card for the adults with a disability or a child in a disability buggy is an excellent one.

At present I cannot manage to fold a buggy or lift my ds. This is not a permanent condition, I'm 18 months post botched emcs. It would be nice to be able to show the driver something that says I will need help to fold etc or even for them to just not drive off when ds is half in half out of his buggy.

I can't see it would be that hard to implement really.

Dawndonnaagain Thu 19-Dec-13 19:07:39

Oi! Retro Which bit don't you understand? I had twins and a 19 month old. I did it. And I live in the Country. It can be done.

Retropear Thu 19-Dec-13 19:09:17

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ProudAS Thu 19-Dec-13 19:09:19

Passengers who get off the bus to make way for a wheelchair should be able to get on the next one for free IMO. It could probably be argued under equality legislation that it constitutes a reasonable adjustment by helping to remove a barrier to a wheelchair and the displaced passenger has already been inconvenienced without being hit financially too.

Expecting a parent to get off the bus because they cannot fold due to disability isn't on though.

GobbySadcase Thu 19-Dec-13 19:09:53

I'm quite happy to swap and demonstrate how I managed with 2 under 15 months if you like.

In return you can take my 8 year old ds in his wheelchair and my 5 year old DD in her major buggy (good luck in pushing both) and my 9 year old with ASD who can disappear quite quickly. Bear in mind before leaving the house the two in chairs have already had multiple autistic meltdowns and have both soiled themselves, one smearing the walls as the other is being cleaned.

Then, in the harassed frame of mind you are now in deal with twats saying you should stand at a bus stop for hours cos it's too hard to fold.

Then tell me how hard it is.

Retropear Thu 19-Dec-13 19:11:36

Oh bully for you Dawn.

<whispers>We vary.

Try 2 x 15 month olds,a newborn,dodgy back and living in the country on a route that involves a dodgy dual carriage way.

ilovesmurfs Thu 19-Dec-13 19:12:17

i thoight by backpack amber meant yhe backpack style reins? or bag for stuff not to carry cchild on back? tho some can and do carry kids on backs. i ptefered front carry slings.

anyway if you travel by bus with a pushchair you need to be prepared to fold it if its needed. if you wont fold then get off. if you need help to fold and juggle kids and bags then ask. i did and i always offer to help now mine are a bit bigger and i dont need help myself.

its not rocket science.

and yes if it impacts you that much then campaign for better buggy access to buses, like those woth disabilities had to do for years.

GobbySadcase Thu 19-Dec-13 19:12:31

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Retropear Thu 19-Dec-13 19:12:39

Perhaps Gobby it's hard for both.

Just a thought.

Anyhow froth away.

GobbySadcase Thu 19-Dec-13 19:13:23

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ProudAS Thu 19-Dec-13 19:13:36

Fairy - if your inability to fold buggy or lift DS has lasted for 12 months or is expected to do so then it is a disability as defined by the equality act and the bus company must make reasonable adjustments and may not treat you less favourably because of it without a good objective reason.

Retropear Thu 19-Dec-13 19:14:08

Clearly buses will just have to be a no go area for some mothers which is sad to be honest.

Gobby don't rise to it, they are not worth it.

DownstairsMixUp Thu 19-Dec-13 19:15:13

I always felt really intimidated by buggy users when I had to sit. I have JME (a type of epilepsy) and I went through a patch where I was OK but was still having the odd jerk (where my arms would fling up involuntary so if i was holding onto a pole standing on a packed bus it wasn't very nice for me) Obviously i wasn't allowed to drive either due to the jerks. Most of the time I just stood as I didn't want to confront anyone for a space and this is coming from someone who could of sat anywhere! not just limited to the larger spaces for wheelchair users, so I can imagine how awkward it is for them! Even when i was standing and a few times I did have the odd jerk, if people noticed they'd either turn away/or look at me like I was just odd. So glad it is the law now that they have priority, it's only right! Let's hope the bus drivers enforce it!

BerniceBroadside Thu 19-Dec-13 19:15:20

So we're fapping on about something you've never seen happen and seems unlikely to actually happen, because if the choice was a long walk or fold you'd be stashing babies in the luggage rack quicksmart.

AmberLeaf Thu 19-Dec-13 19:15:21

ilovesmurfs I meant a backpack instead of a huge bag or baby things on the buggy and reins-the type that go around the wrist of the child and the parent.

GobbySadcase Thu 19-Dec-13 19:16:18

When you are still dealing with continence issues at 9, have arseholes barging you out of the way of a lift so your child soils themselves, get spat at and slagged off in the street, then get told actually hard won disability provision should be commandeered by parents of babies then you might get it.

IamInvisible Thu 19-Dec-13 19:16:21

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Fluffytent Thu 19-Dec-13 19:16:47

I think their is a lot of misplaced anger now on here by those venting at some buggy users.

Fluffytent Thu 19-Dec-13 19:17:03

*there

Dawndonnaagain Thu 19-Dec-13 19:17:28

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Retropear Thu 19-Dec-13 19:17:54

Bernice er no I wouldn't.

Our bus goes along a dual carriage way very fast,keeping my 3 safe was always my priority.I wouldn't have stashed them anywhere- with my extra set of arms.

AmberLeaf Thu 19-Dec-13 19:18:34

Retropear, again, what do you think you would have done if you had your children before accessible buses were around?

ilovesmurfs Thu 19-Dec-13 19:19:38

yes i thought so amber i have a backpack for toddler stuff instead of a handbag and baby change bag, never saw the point of baby change bags tbh, just get a backpack everything can go in. hang on buggy or carry it if nevessary.

when my eldest was little the buses werent accessible, i had awful spd but mamaged by asking for help if necessary.

the accessible buses are great, but they are a bonus for me... a lifeline to those with disabilities tho!

fold, ask for help if necessary. no one is saying mums cant use buses, just fold if necessary.

schnockles Thu 19-Dec-13 19:19:51

Normally don't wade in on these threads but feel I have to.

The ONLY reasons there is space for wheelchairs (and buggies should it not be needed by a wheelchair user) on buses is because of relentless years of campaigning and the equality act.

I find it hard to understand why parents with buggies forget this and believe they are as entitled to use the space as wheelchair users are? It makes no sense to me.

Should I bother mentioning I am a mother with one eight month old DS. I live in London and use buses regularly. I have taken to using a sling because I found it stressful getting on and off the bus fast enough for the tutting non-parent bus users. Can't imagine what it must be like for those wheelchair users who dare to take longer than a minute to board and get themselves into a safe position. They have no choice. The space is for them.

GobbySadcase Thu 19-Dec-13 19:20:26

Misplaced anger? I don't think so. These are precisely the idiots that take prams into disabled cubicles, barge wheelchairs out of the way of lifts and look at you like your child is contagious. The type that complain your child takes too much of the TA's attention when actually the TA is only there for your child.

The type that makes my life just that little bit worse every day. The type whose inability to see past the end of their noses negatively impacts my children all the time. The type who see my children as lesser, not different.

The type that make me fucking sick.

SpikeyChristmasTree Thu 19-Dec-13 19:20:51

I don't think it is misplaced anger. It is placed exactly where it should be. At people who think that having a baby is the same as having a disability, and therefore they are entitled to take away the small amount of provision that has been won for people with disabilities. It was a hard fight to get this far and I'll be damned if I'll stand by quietly whilst it is usurped by people who have made the choice to have a child.

Retropear Thu 19-Dec-13 19:20:53

If you get abusive I will report you.

My 2 were barely toddling at 15 months,I had a newborn.I'm not trumping you as I wasn't aware it was a competition I'm giving you the facts.

Retropear Thu 19-Dec-13 19:21:41

Amber stayed at home.

TheHeadlessLadyofCannock Thu 19-Dec-13 19:22:31

'Why should I get off the bus and be late for my day just because a wheelchair user wants to get on and there isn't enough room? Why are their needs more important than mine and my children's?'

maxo, are you really as unpleasant and uncomprehending as this makes you sound? Have you read this back? Do you actually know how you come across?

Shame on you.

Retropear Thu 19-Dec-13 19:23:29

The fact is for many multiple families (which vary hugely) their buggy and multiples can't vanish into thin air however much you froth.

GobbySadcase Thu 19-Dec-13 19:24:42

Nice one Spikey grin

Honestly I just wish these arseholes could have a week of this. Actually caring for my kids, the appointments etc is hard.

It's the beauracracy and THIS FUCKING SHIT because this isn't words on a screen it's my LIFE that frequently has me at breaking point.

People tell me to stay away from this place because it's fucking toxic but why should I let arseholes keep me away from the friendships I've made here? I'm socially isolated as a parent of kids with SN as it is yet they just fucking want me to be completely on my own don't they?

Fucking, fucking arseholes.

FairyJen Thu 19-Dec-13 19:24:57

The real issue here in my opinion is that drivers need to implement the rules but also have te patience to wait while parents sort out nights and children rather than bowing to the tutters and moving off with unsecure children and passengers

Fluffytent Thu 19-Dec-13 19:25:11

It's no ones fault here that life is difficult, and that is precisely why I and others concur that those spaces are valid for wheelchair users.

However what needs to be taken forward I feel are the views raised by others such as retro on risks and general overcrowding as it is. And as others have mentioned, invisible disabilities being equally valid.

DownstairsMixUp Thu 19-Dec-13 19:25:16

People with disabilities don't ask to be born with them. What about people like me? That HAVE to use public transport because I am not allowed to drive and I have bad days when i still need to get out but need to sit?? This isn't a CHOICE. Why do so many mums feel they are priority? And this is coming from a mum to! I had a huge maxi cosi but i always folded it up if someone needed the wheelchair space.... yes it was a faff as it was a huge thing and with the shopping/changing bag etc but if someone needed it more than me, i never complained!

FairyJen Thu 19-Dec-13 19:25:22

Nights? Buggies even blush

AmberLeaf Thu 19-Dec-13 19:25:36

Amber stayed at home

Really? what, for 2-3 years?

I think you know the honest answer to my question is, you would have just got on with it in the way you had to, just like everyone else did before accessible buses.

Retropear Thu 19-Dec-13 19:25:46

If they are already on and it is the law they my well have to get off- that is shit and quite frankly some of the posts on here are utterly devoid of empathy and nasty.

needaholidaynow Thu 19-Dec-13 19:26:13

You may find you have to if the bus driver tells you to. If you don't and he refuses to move the bus, you will get even more tuts from other bus users.

Erm, if I've paid my way and I've put my pram down, I'm not getting off. Trust me.

DownstairsMixUp Thu 19-Dec-13 19:26:23

Maxo What an awful comment! angry Why don't you take my jme and shove it with your stinking attitude angry

OhNoGeorge Thu 19-Dec-13 19:27:25

Who thinks 'having a baby is the same as having a disability'? I don't think anyone has said this. Misplaced anger, yes. There are some people on this thread who have said things which are totally unacceptable and have been called on it. I don't think anyone is defending this view point.

Some people are just trying to make the point that it can also be hard for parents of multiples/ parents with SPD/ parents with whatever issues you like. Of course it is no where near what disabled people or parents of disabled children have to face. However compared to the average bus user these people may deserve some extra consideration. That's all.

And as PP said, sometimes it is a safety issue. Where I am the bus drivers don't give a fuck and I can't count the number of times I, or my 2 year old has gone flying down the aisle as the bus sped off. It would be impossible to fold a buggy in that time even if I was trying to. And yes I have had words with the driver many times to no avail!

DownstairsMixUp Thu 19-Dec-13 19:27:49

Erm, if I've paid my way and I've put my pram down, I'm not getting off. Trust me.

Wow. How kind of you.

Thymeout Thu 19-Dec-13 19:28:13

Firstly, of course wheelchair users have priority. No question.

But don't be so sniffy about 'tesco tessies' with their trolleys. For many elderly people, the four-wheeler trolley also acts as a mobility aid. Gives them stability as they walk or ride on a bus, as well as carrying their shopping. It can't be unpacked or folded and their needs are as valid, if not more so, as many a buggy user.

1944girl Thu 19-Dec-13 19:28:28

I was a young mother when buses had no facilities for wheelchairs or unfolded buggies.
After DS1 was born if I needed to use the bus I carried him in a sling as the only other transport I had for him was a carriage pram, this was early 1970 when this was usual.
When he grew too big for the sling, I bought a McClaren light umbrella fold buggy.To use a bus entailed lifting baby out of buggy, folding buggy (the type I had could be folded with one hand) as soon as you reached the bus stop.Then when bus arrived,on you got with baby and shopping bag in one arm, and buggy in the other hand.This was no mean feat on your own, so I avoided doing it unaccompanied.In those days buses had conductors who would often take the buggy or another helpful passenger would take in onto the bus for you.Getting off involved the same operation only you had to but buggy on pavemement when getting off, unfolding it and securing baby into it and hoping no one snatched your bag while doing so.
No wonder I avoided travelling on buses on my own.I often did the five mile hike into town and back pushing DS in the big pram.
When I was caring for my grandchildren it was sheer bliss being able to travel on buses with a pushchair or buggy.If there was no room on the bus I would happily wait for the next one, remembering the hell of my days of bus travel with my own children when they were in buggies.
Now the only downside is the unpleasantness caused on buses between wheelchair users and buggy owners. Drivers are powerless as they have their driving and fare collections to concentrate on.Many times I have witnessed a possible WW3 starting on the wheelchair and buggy spaces.
The worst offenders are those who board a bus with a foldable buggy, then remove the child from the buggy, plonk child on an empty seat and leave the said buggy unfolded preventing another user from boarding.I have even seen an elderly or infirm passenger having to stand while a small child who has been removed from a buggy sitting on a seat.The parent of that child seems oblivious.

GobbySadcase Thu 19-Dec-13 19:28:37

I think next time I'll just drag the buggy off myself.

need I'm not sure if you've ever tried that but someone did round this way a few months ago. The police were called. They were removed. And that was just for an overcrowded bus. The driver and the police got a round of applause, including from the other mums who had folded their buggies.

GobbySadcase Thu 19-Dec-13 19:29:18

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AmberLeaf Thu 19-Dec-13 19:29:40

The fact is for many multiple families (which vary hugely) their buggy and multiples can't vanish into thin air however much you froth

The fact is for all people that use wheelchairs, their wheelchair and the need for it can't vanish into thin air no matter how much of a misplaced sense of entitlement you have.

needaholidaynow Thu 19-Dec-13 19:29:59

What's kind about it? I have as much right to be on the bus if I've paid as anyone else on the bus at the same time as me. If I have somewhere to go then I have somewhere to go. I won't be penalised for having children with me.

Can't win! You put your pram down willingly and it's still not good enough!

SpikeyChristmasTree Thu 19-Dec-13 19:31:09

So which parent is starting the campaign for designated buggy spaces? Or is that too much hassle as well?

TheHeadlessLadyofCannock Thu 19-Dec-13 19:31:10

Downstairs, you got there before me.

needaholiday, you wouldn't get off for a wheelchair user if there wasn't enough space to accommodate you both? If not, then I think you deserve people 'being an arse' with you.

Retropear Thu 19-Dec-13 19:31:15

Really Amber.

Sorry I did just get on with being a mum of 3 under 15 months but putting them at risk no I wouldn't.

Juggling 2 live wire toddlers and a newborn on a fast moving bus with no restraint would be too risky so I wouldn't have used the bus.It was a nightmare with the buggy as it was. The thought of possibly having to get off and having 3 to hold would not be worth the risk.

Great I'd have sucked it up but many multiple mums feel isolated,need to get out and need encouragement to do so.Stopping them from logistically using buses is crap.Sorry but it is.

Dawndonnaagain Thu 19-Dec-13 19:31:16

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DownstairsMixUp Thu 19-Dec-13 19:31:29

Amberleaf is pretty much saying what I wanted to say!

needaholidaynow Thu 19-Dec-13 19:31:36

Lol. The police?? How very fucking dramatic!

AmberLeaf Thu 19-Dec-13 19:31:42

It's no ones fault here that life is difficult

Well, it is some people heres fault that difficult lives are made even more difficult.

GobbySadcase Thu 19-Dec-13 19:32:17

Oh please. They're too fucking lazy. They just piggyback on three decades of disability campaigners' work.

I've had it with trying to educate and explain nicely. You can't educate shit.

schnockles Thu 19-Dec-13 19:32:52

Gobby isn't frothing. She's furious, yes and rightly so. I'm amazed at how eloquently she's putting her points across.

And it drives me nuts when I see empty, unfolded buggies on a busy bus with toddlers on seats.

Retropear Thu 19-Dec-13 19:33:03

Well Amber we have a non vanishing wheelchair and a non vanishing buggy with multiple babies.

There is a problem which I'm pointing out.

needaholidaynow Thu 19-Dec-13 19:33:19

I HAVE SAID I WILL FOLD MY PRAM DOWN. There is always somewhere to shove your folded buggy.

GobbySadcase Thu 19-Dec-13 19:33:36

Schnockles I've not started on the vodka yet wink

schnockles Thu 19-Dec-13 19:33:40

Should say I'm amazed because I wouldn't be able to if I was that furious!! blush

FairyJen Thu 19-Dec-13 19:33:45

gobby that would be a tad unfair on the dc you fold up although I do seem to find My mental image of lots of squashed little faces and waving feet rather amusing grin]

schnockles Thu 19-Dec-13 19:34:18

Gobby I might need to after this thread!

GobbySadcase Thu 19-Dec-13 19:34:29

Yeah? I'll fold DS' wheelchair to put in yours if you like, it's quite big.

Was quite amusing to see the extremely nasty gobby entitled woman who was threatening the bus driver and other passengers almost arrested. I hope she was actually, but we'd driven on well before the police had finished with her.

Retropear Thu 19-Dec-13 19:34:35

Oh and Dawn sorry saying any mother desperate to get out should just stay at home is beyond retaliating to.

If you refuse to fold down your pram because you CBA, you won't be going anywhere in a hurry if I'm on the bus with DDs wheelchair, cause the only place I'll be moving is into the wheelchair space that you will vacate at some point.

SpikeyChristmasTree Thu 19-Dec-13 19:35:47

I'm afraid you are correct, Gobby. Seems like we haven't really moved on from the 1980s and early 1990s when my dad could rarely leave the house because of access issues.

Dawndonnaagain Thu 19-Dec-13 19:36:11

Retro the non vanishing buggy loses. It is law now, despite what was said upthread. 35 years of hard work has finally paid off.

needaholidaynow Thu 19-Dec-13 19:36:18

Gobby and entitled? Did she fold her pram down? If she did then she shouldn't have been treated like a criminal.

Retropear Thu 19-Dec-13 19:37:22

Fairy yes grin I pictured my 3 folded up with legs flailing about.

It's not so much the buggy guys as the 3 babies in it!

need she refused to fold or get off. Then she threatened the bus driver. And the passengers who stepped in. She deserved it completely.

Dawndonnaagain Thu 19-Dec-13 19:37:48

As for retailiating to. You can go out. You have other options, that's the whole fucking point, you still have options that people with disabilities do not have.
<head desk>

AmberLeaf Thu 19-Dec-13 19:38:23

Retro dawndonna also said learn to fold not just stay at home, yet you said to me if there weren't accessible buggies thats exactly what you would do. Make your mind up.

SpikeyChristmasTree Thu 19-Dec-13 19:38:51

But it's hard, Dawndonna. sad

tiggytape Thu 19-Dec-13 19:39:32

Excluding one group for another isn't progress imvho.

It isn't excluding one for the other.
The progres part is that, until 10 years ago, there were no wheelchair spaces and now there are.
10 years ago there were no buggy spaces. There still aren't.

But if the wheelchair section is empty, buggies are allowed to go in there until a wheelchair user wishes to get on and use their space. The one designed just for them - not buggies and that only exists because of disabilty campaigns and laws. Not parental ones. The fact buggies can sometimes use that space is just a happy by-product of the wheelchair access provided.

And nobody need be turfed off but you would need to fold the buggy up and sit the baby on your lap if a wc user got on. If you refused to fold the buggy then of course you'd have to get off - where else could you go? You can't expect a wc user not to have the space provided especially for them just because you've got a lot of shopping or a stupidly big pram and won't hand the baby over to a passenger while you sort it all out.

Retropear Thu 19-Dec-13 19:39:38

Yes Dawn it's law and as I say if it leads to multiple mums getting booted off it's a problem and not progress as you've excluded one group for another.

AmberLeaf Thu 19-Dec-13 19:40:52

No one had to get booted off though Retro.

They just have to learn to fold a buggy and hold their child/children.

needaholidaynow Thu 19-Dec-13 19:41:08

Fair enough. But someone like me for instance. Say I'm in the middle of nowhere, or my son has a appointment, or I am simply just going to do a bit of shopping. If I fold my pram down (which I would), I don't expect to be man handled off the bus or cave in to peer pressure when I have moved out of the wheelchair space. Absolute joke in my opinion.

SpikeyChristmasTree Thu 19-Dec-13 19:41:12

Start your campaign then Retro.

need I completely agree - no one willing to fold should be turfed off public transport.

AmberLeaf Thu 19-Dec-13 19:42:14

Just like they had to do before wheelchair spaces existed.

Retropear Thu 19-Dec-13 19:42:24

There are many more multiple families and many more people using the buses.We're not talking about 1 baby(which anybody could handle) but 2 or 3 or more.

BerniceBroadside Thu 19-Dec-13 19:42:51

Thymeout, no issue with trollies being used. Massive issue with them blocking aisles, wheelchair spaces or other priority seats when the owner has been asked nicely to move them, and offered assistance, but has refused.

Ironically it's often other elderly people who struggle to get past or who are unable to sit at the front because of tesco tessie.

Presumably tesco tessie is the parent of maxomummy and retropear.

Dawndonnaagain Thu 19-Dec-13 19:42:51

Oh good grief?

Anybody, just anybody, is it me? wink

AmberLeaf Thu 19-Dec-13 19:43:00

Why would someone willing to fold be booted off?

They wouldn't.

needaholidaynow Thu 19-Dec-13 19:43:10

Just like they had to do before wheelchair spaces existed.

If thats aimed at me, I'm aware of that fact.

tiggytape Thu 19-Dec-13 19:43:45

Nobody willing to fold is turfed off - are they? That's the point.
It is people who think it should be a 'first come, first served' system and won't fold their buggies that are being penalised not those that know wc users have priority and fold them when they see a wc user boarding.

AmberLeaf Thu 19-Dec-13 19:43:55

It isn't just you Dawndonna!

I think we need a brickwall smiley.

AmberLeaf Thu 19-Dec-13 19:44:57

needaholiday thats aimed at anyone wahwahwahing about having to fold a buggy and hold a child/children.

candycoatedwaterdrops Thu 19-Dec-13 19:45:37

Mothers of multiples never got public transport before wheelchair users campaigned for wheelchair spaces? I'm sure that's true.

GobbySadcase Thu 19-Dec-13 19:46:21

My three have four years between them all (would have been less but lost one between dc2 and 3).

Toddler years were a piece of piss compared to now. Both me and DH could hold down jobs.

Disability changes your lives in ways you just can't comprehend unless you've been there. You just can't.

But I mean it when I say the attitudes of other people (and they really are much more negative, selfish and unhelpful than the opposite) are what nearly brings me to breaking point every time. If not on here in RL for example the people in the London Science Museum that kept barging past the wheelchair into the lift because they couldn't be arsed to use the stairs meaning my then 7 year old soiled himself. Robbing him of his dignity.

You may think not wanting to inconvenience yourself on one thing is small and insignificant, but when the majority of people think and act that way it means our life is constantly being made difficult all the time. It really, really gets you down.

IamInvisible Thu 19-Dec-13 19:46:54

One group has not been excluded for another.

If parents want buggy spaces, campaign for them. Simple. Disabled people and their carers did and they have got them.

I am sick to the fucking back teeth of people moaning about the perceived 'perks' that disabled people have because their lives are such a bed of roses, aren't they?

It is,also,a tad ironic bleating about someone saying that you should stay in if you aren't prepared to fold your buggy, because each time you don't fold it, or nip in the disabled loo, or just park in the blue badge space while you just run to the shop or nip to the cash point, you are making disabled people's lives that much harder. The knock on effect of that is they stop going out because they can't be arsed with the battle!

candycoatedwaterdrops Thu 19-Dec-13 19:47:43

I don't give a flying fuck if you have quadruplets aged 1 and triplets aged 2, you have to move them because it is a wheelchair space. When you have buggy spaces, then you can come on here and get arsey with the world.

P.S. Equality does mean everyone has exactly the same. Some people really need to get with the picture!

Retropear Thu 19-Dec-13 19:47:47

Oh I can fold a buggy.

Fold a buggy,hold 3 wriggling babies and a nappy bag on a fast moving bus not so much.

Anyhow not my problem but it will be an issue for others- sadly but hey I'll leave you to froth and character assassinate all buggy users the maj of whom are happy to fold( some just can't).

SpikeyChristmasTree Thu 19-Dec-13 19:48:00

It is the same every time this kind of thread comes up. Head, brick wall. This, disabled parking and soon enough there will be someone starting a thread complaining that their visit to the panto was spoiled by a child with additional needs.

GobbySadcase Thu 19-Dec-13 19:49:18

I mean in reality how many times would you have to actually fold? I think someone said 4 times in years.

That's nothing to lots of little things every day.

GobbySadcase Thu 19-Dec-13 19:50:26

You can, though.
You just don't want to.

Retropear Thu 19-Dec-13 19:50:28

Nice Candy- progress?hmm

GobbySadcase Thu 19-Dec-13 19:51:53

They'd have loved last night then Spikey.
Theatre full of 280 individuals with SN and their families. Was magic grin

Fluffytent Thu 19-Dec-13 19:52:17

Maybe this thread should be moved to SN- i think there are bigger issues with society and treatment shouted by some on here that may be best answered there than on AIBU

MoominsYonisAreScary Thu 19-Dec-13 19:53:20

If people with disabilities hadn't fought for the right to access buses, you wouldn't have any choice but to fold or walk.

Retropear Thu 19-Dec-13 19:53:53

Oh for goodness sake Gobby you're just inventing threads.

I.would.have.gadly.folded.if.I.could.have.

But hey you carry on.

GobbySadcase Thu 19-Dec-13 19:55:04

Oh of course cos those NASTY people shouldn't be discussed in the fraightfully naice 'normal' worked, should they?

Would you rather stick your fingers in your ears, clamp your eyes shut and go la la la la?

IamInvisible Thu 19-Dec-13 19:55:14

You chose to have 3 wriggly babies Retro and you chose to get on the bus with them knowing by law you would have to fold or get off if a wheelchair user got on.

I did not choose to be disabled. I can not leave my disability at home and go out shopping on my own when DH is home, it won't go away it will always be there, getting worse and worse. I don't use the bus because I can't walk to the bus stop. The last time I did was at an airport. All the parents had their toddlers and DC taking up seats while I had to stand, on my sticks, on a moving bus! angry

SpikeyChristmasTree Thu 19-Dec-13 19:55:18

Come on then, when is this campaign for buggy spaces starting? I'll even sign the petition.

ParcelFancy Thu 19-Dec-13 19:55:19

Yeah, cos this thread isn't at all relevant for people with poor awareness of disability and SN, is it, Fluffytent? hmm

maillotjaune Thu 19-Dec-13 19:55:21

No this thread should not be moved to SN. People with no experience of using public transport with a wheelchair need to know about this.

AmberLeaf Thu 19-Dec-13 19:55:39

Maybe this thread should be moved to SN- i think there are bigger issues with society and treatment shouted by some on here that may be best answered there than on AIBU

Why?

GobbySadcase Thu 19-Dec-13 19:55:49

worked world

Fluffytent Thu 19-Dec-13 19:56:38

Like I said I think some are getting very angry on here at others who have not caused a problem. You may feel better supported on SN- just trying to help.

AmberLeaf Thu 19-Dec-13 19:57:20

Exactly parcelfancy/maillotjaune.

It isn't parents of children with disabilities that need to know the facts.

Retropear Thu 19-Dec-13 19:57:22

No I didn't choose to have 3 wriggly babies under 15 months.

Most multiple parents don't choose it,it doesn't exactly work like that.hmm

GobbySadcase Thu 19-Dec-13 19:57:40

No fucking way.
I want people to see what they do to families like mine.

If consciences prick people so much the better.

AmberLeaf Thu 19-Dec-13 19:58:02

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

Fluffytent Thu 19-Dec-13 19:59:18

I wish you all the best, and am sorry you feel that way.

SpikeyChristmasTree Thu 19-Dec-13 19:59:40

People refusing to fold their buggy because it is difficult have caused very real problems to people on this thread and their families. Their attitudes really depress those of us who thought things might get better for those with disabilities.

This thread should stay exactly where it is. People on this thread aren't after support - they just want the legal right for people with disabilities to travel in the space allocated to them.

Its not the people that are dealing with disabilities that need educating on this matter, so why would this thread need moving to the SN board?

candycoatedwaterdrops Thu 19-Dec-13 20:00:04

Comparing being a parent of multiples with being a wheelchair user............. shock

GobbySadcase Thu 19-Dec-13 20:01:09

Candy are you new here wink

It's not just buses, they like taking prams in disabled loos too.

DownstairsMixUp Thu 19-Dec-13 20:01:32

No way to moving this thread!!! it's people without disabilities and multiple children by the sound of this thread that need educating!!

candycoatedwaterdrops Thu 19-Dec-13 20:02:03

Retropear Getting off the bus and waiting 30 minutes for the next bus won't kill or hospitalise your babies (assuming healthy) but it very well might for dawndonna's LOVELY DD but that's ok, isn't it? Because it's not a choice to have multiples.....

candycoatedwaterdrops Thu 19-Dec-13 20:02:40

I'm not new, just fucking frustrated. sad

Retropear Thu 19-Dec-13 20:03:20

Oh spare us your competitive outage Candy nobody is but pointy out facts ie multiple babies don't vanish into thin air and this may well be an issue on occasions.

Dawndonnaagain Thu 19-Dec-13 20:03:35

But that's the point, Retro you could have.
Me, I don't have that choice. I have very few choices and every day people like you remove further choices. You see, a lot of bus drivers haven't yet got the message that my choices do in fact override yours, so they will ask a mum to fold and she will look at me, and my mates and think to herself no, my baby is more precious. Well, to her, yes, her baby/babies are more precious, but the will grow up and have oh so many choices. They will be able, at some point to choose when to get up in the morning, when to go downstairs, when to go shopping. When I was little we'd go out and get to the supermarket but not be able to get me out, this would occur on a fairly regular basis. I was convinced for a long time that people didn't like me and didn't want to see me. To some extent that's true. The mum on the bus doesn't want to acknowledge my existence, it nudges something in her subconscious, a little fleeting, god that could be my kid, followed instantly, but fleetingly with a touch of guilt for thinking it. Seeing me there reminds you of the fragility of existence and frightens you. Well I get frightened too, I get frightened when you won't fold because the cold could kill me. I get frightenend when people don't fold because I'm frequently called upon by complete strangers to justify my very existence. Why should I get on the bus, haven't I got a fucking mobility car? And then, as I've said before I have to deal with the bullies. Those that won't let it go Retro, that by posting continually on threads like this about how right they are, and how awful those disabled militant frothers are, come into my home, and bully me.
I remain unimpressed Retro. Unimpressed.
Dawndonna's dd.

IamInvisible Thu 19-Dec-13 20:04:29

You still chose to get on the bus with them Retro knowing that it is a wheelchair space and by law you could be asked to fold or get off. You can not deny that.

Retropear Thu 19-Dec-13 20:07:44

On some of our roads it could kill,then there is the legality of £8 worth of bus fair,the logistics of walking miles to your designation trailing toddlers.Seriously Candy your posts just look utterly nasty as is this thread.

Anyhow you clearly just want to read what you want to read,twist what you want to twist and refuse to listen to anybody else so I'll leave you to it.

candycoatedwaterdrops Thu 19-Dec-13 20:07:48

WTF, it is not competitive outrage? It was posted above by a real human being. Stop trying to shut down arguments because you think the world revolves around you.

IT IS A WHEELCHAIR SPACE!

Sirzy Thu 19-Dec-13 20:08:36

yet again DawnDonnas DD, very eloquent and well put. I hope your post make just one person think twice before refusing to 'struggle' by putting their pram down.

Retropear Thu 19-Dec-13 20:08:54

Dawn as I said- we're not talking about one baby.

maillotjaune Thu 19-Dec-13 20:09:15

Dear Dawndonna's DD
Thank you for posting that, you sound like an amazing young woman.

AmberLeaf Thu 19-Dec-13 20:09:36