AIBU, the miltery awards on ITV

(253 Posts)
RoseRedder Mon 16-Dec-13 21:01:47

AIBU?

I think this is wrong

The 'wars' these men/women have been in are all made up wars by the UK and USA government

And now there is a tv programme giving them celebrity status

I don't doubt the people of will be nominated will have gone out their way to aid their colleagues

But turning war into a tv programme is beyond sick

Alisvolatpropiis Mon 16-Dec-13 21:02:23

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DoYouLikeMyBaubles Mon 16-Dec-13 21:03:31

biscuit

CardiffUniversityNetballTeam Mon 16-Dec-13 21:04:42

YABU for not even trying to spell military properly.

KringleCandleLover Mon 16-Dec-13 21:05:29

Aibu to ask why you can't spell?

thebody Mon 16-Dec-13 21:05:42

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KringleCandleLover Mon 16-Dec-13 21:06:25

X post.

wannakillem Mon 16-Dec-13 21:06:58

Seriously????? I take it that some of the injuries are also made up then?

Armed forces personnel don't get to choose where they are sent.

Be grateful that there are those willing to serve, you obviously wouldn't.

TheNightIsDark Mon 16-Dec-13 21:07:42

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Twighlightsparkle Mon 16-Dec-13 21:07:45

I must admit , I feel a bit like well, no one forces em to be in the military, there's no law in this country that people have to join up.

I've always felt a bit weird about the heroes thing.

farrowandbawlbauls Mon 16-Dec-13 21:08:24

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RoseRedder Mon 16-Dec-13 21:08:33

no Kringle ask away

I have never been able to spell

The reasons for this? Some would call be dyselxtic , personally I think it's just because I can't spell.......I am a bad speller, that doesn't make me a bad person

DoYouLikeMyBaubles Mon 16-Dec-13 21:09:05

My friend is abroad helping civilians rebuild their homes that were destroyed by rebels.

He is also teaching them how to be safe and protect themselves.

He deserves recognition in my eyes.

TheNightIsDark Mon 16-Dec-13 21:10:20

Spelling doesn't make you a bad person. Slagging off people who put their lives on the line to help people have a semi decent chance at a future does.

LtEveDallas Mon 16-Dec-13 21:11:33

Meh, so don't watch it. The General public nominate for all bar one of the awards, so it seems a lot of people don't agree with you.

batteryhen Mon 16-Dec-13 21:12:16

I knew there would be a thread about this. If you don't like it, don't watch it.

IamInvisible Mon 16-Dec-13 21:12:18

People in the Military didn't ask for this award ceremony, The Sun started it, Here.

You are not obliged to watch it, you can turn over or turn it off.

RoseRedder Mon 16-Dec-13 21:12:35

wow

ok I'll fuck off then

Personally I don't agree with government sponpership wars

BUt I must be the one in the wrong

Sidge Mon 16-Dec-13 21:13:27

The award I've just watched was for a woman in the Search and Rescue team that saved the life of a civilian fisherman. Nothing to do with war at all.

MissMarplesBloomers Mon 16-Dec-13 21:14:15

As a trivial aside what HAS la Holden done to her face???

TheNightIsDark Mon 16-Dec-13 21:15:53

All wars have been started by those in chance. Did the English want to invade France in 1415 (?) , no. But Henry V wanted a dual monarchy so they did.

It's a bloody brave job to do. Saying its wrong to call them heroes would be like saying firefighters shouldn't be called heroes as they choose to run into burning buildings.

TheNightIsDark Mon 16-Dec-13 21:16:04

Charge not chance.

I agree with you OP.

thebody Mon 16-Dec-13 21:18:37

missmarple totally agree, spoiling herself.

Rose don't strop. you asked aibu and most posters say yes. don't ask if you don't like.

Mitchy1nge Mon 16-Dec-13 21:21:54

all made up wars by the UK and USA government

op you are so funny, you should sign up for the Boer war immediately, or the franco prussian or the gallic wars, they were not made up, or the 100 years war or the wars of the roses? they can't have been made up, Shakespeare wrote about them

I think it would be more appropriate to give a military award than a tacky itv one.

LtEveDallas Mon 16-Dec-13 21:25:47

Oh and they dont get celebrity status - do you know the names of last years 'winners'?

They'll be back at work the next day having the piss ripped out of them by their mates. They mean nothing except (generally) to the family of the recipients. They come with no money/status/medal/standing.

They are nothing to do with the government, and they are not the result of Iraq or Afghanistan.

RoseRedder Mon 16-Dec-13 21:27:41

what was it David Cameron said today

'Mission Accomplished'

DeckTheHallsWithBoughsOfHorry Mon 16-Dec-13 21:32:23

It's a shitty programme because it's an excuse for some slebs to have yet another posh dinner at someone else's expense and pretend they give a shiny shit about Our Heroes being wheeled out and given a token award to assuage their guilt about the devastation our government wreaks on the world by its policies and the men and women we have to send out (risking life and limb) to clear up the mess.

/rant

ConferencePear Mon 16-Dec-13 21:32:46

Good to see the spirit of goodwill to all has started early this Christmas.

formerbabe Mon 16-Dec-13 21:36:40

I am not watching it because I imagine its like the pride of Britain awards. I dislike seeing the z list celebs there trying to look emotional/sincere/moved. Fair play to the rest of it.

meditrina Mon 16-Dec-13 21:37:15

"I don't agree with government sponpership wars"

Who, other than the Government, should have the authority to commit British forces to operations, then?

And if you don't want a war-mongering government, don't vote for it. Though I suppose no-one would have predicted how bellicose Blair et al would be before their first foray.

halestone Mon 16-Dec-13 21:38:11

Wow not being a good at spelling doesn't make you a bad person. But your OP paints you to be a pretty horrible person. If you don't like it turn it over don't make a thread about these awards giving soldiers 'celebrity status'

I take it you also object when police officers or fire fighters receive awards for something they have done in the line of duty.

These soldiers are receiving awards for going above and beyond what is expected of them. I'm proud of the fact that there are people like them in this world!

RoseRedder Mon 16-Dec-13 21:39:32

The war in kuwait happened under Thatcher

Mitchy1nge Mon 16-Dec-13 21:41:17

what, the gulf war? thatcher? really?

ItsAliveItsElectric Mon 16-Dec-13 21:42:08

They are doing a job. As a pp has said, they don't get a say in where they are sent. Some, like my brother, signed up as he left school with no qualifications and he has made a career in the army. They have seen some horrific things, he won't even tell me or my mum as it's too traumatic. They don't see themselves as heroes, to them they are doing a job. I'd rather see real people getting recognised than bloody brainless 'celebrities' any day.

Mitchy1nge Mon 16-Dec-13 21:42:16

am pretty sure she was out of power by then

LtEveDallas Mon 16-Dec-13 21:43:20

Are you talking about Operation Granby (UK - was Desert Storm to the US) that was Jan 90 I believe?

Why was that a 'made up war' then? Do tell.

AmeliaToppingLovesShopping Mon 16-Dec-13 21:44:26

This is why we need to fight terrorism!

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/pakistan/10375633/Malala-Yousafzai-recounts-moment-she-was-shot-in-the-head-by-Taliban.html

Malala Yousafzai is a truly inspirational young woman and it is because of people like her that we need to fight the Taliban. They are unable to protect themselves so we must try instead.

Mitchy1nge Mon 16-Dec-13 21:44:45

PLEASE tell what sort of wars are not 'made up', what does it mean? that they are factual wars? please explain

LtEveDallas Mon 16-Dec-13 21:44:59

Typo, Jan 91, not 90. Thought Thatcher was gone by the ?

Salmotrutta Mon 16-Dec-13 21:46:09

It happened under John Major the first Iraq invasion.

Salmotrutta Mon 16-Dec-13 21:47:25

I remember being worried that my brother might join up and end up there!

LadyBeagleEyes Mon 16-Dec-13 21:48:18

They had Amy and joey from I'm celeb presenting.
It's a Sun ceremony for the z list to raise their profile. I doubt the awardees give a shit, they're doing their job but I also think acts of courage shouldn't be celebrated in a ceremony so naff.

RoseRedder Mon 16-Dec-13 21:48:48

@halestone Wow not being a good at spelling doesn't make you a bad person. But your OP paints you to be a pretty horrible person

No it does not, I do not believe in glorifying war

Sorry if that upsets you but glorfiying war upsets me

I think the men and women that join up to the armed forces do in with good intentions

Mitchy1nge Mon 16-Dec-13 21:50:40

I'm in the miltery, get me out of here, I never signed up for no made up war in a tanning salon in Essex sad

TheNightIsDark Mon 16-Dec-13 21:50:47

If it highlights to people the jobs which the armed forces carry out and the help that they give then I wouldn't care if they had the orange one handing out awards in the raw if meant people stopped imagining murder hungry gun toting thugs rampaging through Iraq for glory.

Salmotrutta Mon 16-Dec-13 21:51:00

I doubt that an award programme is actually glorifying war.

It sounds like it's recognising sacrifice/heroism etc.

(I'm not watching though so I'm not sure obviously)

RoseRedder Mon 16-Dec-13 21:52:46

sorry Thatcher was the Falklands

LtEveDallas Mon 16-Dec-13 21:53:26

Op GRANBY started in Aug/Sep 90. I remember that because my then soldier boyfriend started preparing to go out, and I was in basic training writing 'Blueys' to him. I tried to be posted to his unit, but ended up in. Northern Ireland instead (which turned out to be more bloody dangerous!)

I think the US then 'took over' and the ground war became known as Desert Storm. That would have been 1991.

Thatcher left (or was pushed!) in Nov 90 I think, and Major took over.

AmeliaToppingLovesShopping Mon 16-Dec-13 21:53:35

And as for the military awards. I cannot begin to imagine what these men and women have to endure whilst they are in places like Afghanistan. Seeing friends killed and not knowing if you will make it home to see your loved ones. I am sure most would prefer an end to the war rather than an award but that doesn't look like it will be ending any time soon.

The argument that they chose to join the Army/Marines ect so they don't deserve to be recognised doesn't really work either. What would happen if there wasn't anybody who was prepared to serve in the armed forces? I guess it would be either no forces at all so open to attack from pretty much anybody who felt like it or National service where all men, and possibly women, of a certain age and health would have to join up for a set amount of time. Neither of those seem a good idea to me.

Mitchy1nge Mon 16-Dec-13 21:54:50

ah yes, the falklands/kuwait

hard to tell all these made up places apart especially when they are so geographically similar

LtEveDallas Mon 16-Dec-13 21:57:07

Mind you Mitchy, they do have one similarity - both wars were the result of one country illegally invading another and UK/US assets being used to restore order.

How that becomes 'made up' I'm not sure though.

TSSDNCOP Mon 16-Dec-13 21:57:09

Can you even point at a single war not initiated by a Government?

Did you stand up and march against the Iraq War?

The Labour Govt under Tony Blair achieved re-election after the onset of the Iraq War. Hope you didn't vote Labour OP.

As to the Armed Forces, programmes such as this highlight the vast reach of their skills from search and rescue to peace keepers. In the course of the latter, too many have suffered life changing injuries or lost their lives.

Personally I think we should have a programme every week about these people and you can throw in the fire service, paramedics, nurses as well for good measure.

IamInvisible Mon 16-Dec-13 21:57:35

How many more threads do there have to be like this? Every Remembrance Sunday we get them. Any excuse and there is one.

These awards do not glorify war. Having no Armed Forces would not stop war, as has been suggested in the past months. If people didn't sign up voluntarily, then people would be forced to do it. Which would you prefer?

SPSJSAT Mon 16-Dec-13 21:58:11

Yeah.. Reunited serving members of our Armed Forces who've barely seen each other since they got married 18 months ago.

The bastards.

hmm

chuddies Mon 16-Dec-13 22:04:51

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RoseRedder Mon 16-Dec-13 22:09:03

Did you stand up and march against the Iraq War?

Yes I did

monicalewinski Mon 16-Dec-13 22:09:57

Really Rose?

I'm all for you having an opinion and expressing it wherever you see fit, in fact the men and women you are against have fought for you to have that right (but you know this).

I think if you are going to speak out against something you should know a little about it though.

Falklands - invaded. British citizens, therefore task force sent to defend our citizens.

Kuwait - invaded. Mandate to go in and protect the people of Kuwait against their invader.

Bosnia - peacekeeping.

Iraq & Afghanistan - Tony fucking Blair trying to seal his 'legacy'. However, the British forces out there have done a lot of other stuff too - not just 'killing civilians'.

When the fire strikes were happening, who covered? Lockerbie plane crash, who helped pick up the remains of the passengers? Foot & Mouth disease, who dealt with? Flooding and natural disasters, in this country and abroad, who deals with it? The prison officers strike that nearly happened, who was on standby to cover? The Olympics security farce, who stepped in to cover? Mountain and air/sea rescue, who does it?

I could go on and fucking on, but I'm boring myself now.

If you have done anything like those examples, please feel free to come back and tell me to fuck off, until then - do some reading and at least do yourself the courtesy of making an informed opinion before you spout off shite.

NigellaLaw5on Mon 16-Dec-13 22:11:11

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chuddies Mon 16-Dec-13 22:11:32

please dont forget Op Banner aka Northern Ireland - that was made up tooo!!!!

RoseRedder Mon 16-Dec-13 22:13:27

we follow orders without question @ chuddies

there in may lie the problem.

IamInvisible Mon 16-Dec-13 22:14:22

Nigella, DS1 is neither mental or brain dead, thank you very much. He is, infact incredibly intelligent. There is far more to being in the Army than going to Afghanistan which is why he wants to join.
DH joined the RAF in 1986, he is quite sane too.

TheNightIsDark Mon 16-Dec-13 22:15:25

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RoseRedder Mon 16-Dec-13 22:15:28

oh come on

The falklands did not belong britain

LtEveDallas Mon 16-Dec-13 22:16:01

Actually Nigella, someone who enlists now is highly unlikely to see active service in Afghanistan, seeing as we are on our way back out.

So 'mental brain dead buffoon' right back atcha sweetie.

Chuddies, no need for that. It is easy to lose your temper, but the best of us are trained not to.

ThursdayLast Mon 16-Dec-13 22:16:40

OP, have you name changed since Nov 11?
You seem familiar

IamInvisible Mon 16-Dec-13 22:17:23

Rose the Falklands are British! Ask the people, they voted that they want to remain British, FFS.

LtEveDallas Mon 16-Dec-13 22:17:26

Rose, the Falkland Islanders are British and wish to remain British. They are not Argentinian and do not wish to be Argentinian, nor under Argentine rule.

Check your history.

DeckTheHallsWithBoughsOfHorry Mon 16-Dec-13 22:17:40

The Falklands were and are populated by people who consider themselves British confused

Gossipmonster Mon 16-Dec-13 22:18:23

Think people get confused with politicians and servicemen.

Yes nowadays they choose to do the job and they get paid to do it. In WW1 15 yr old kids got sent to the trenches, I cannot imagine what they went through or what their families must have gone through. My son is 16.

Politics aside, at the moment we need an armed defence and fair play to the people prepared to be a part of that, and their families ESP their children. We all serve by default.

Unless you have known how it feels to have a loved one away and not know where they are or if they are safe then you should be grateful there are people doing that necessary job for you while you bury your head in the sand.

I am immensely proud of the work my OH does/is part of protecting our country from the threat of Nuclear attack, on Trident spending months out of contact with us and not knowing if we are ok and the sacrifices he makes.

Why should we not celebrate this? Better than the bloody soap awards.

halestone Mon 16-Dec-13 22:19:52

Yes OP it does, you sound like the type of person whom i wouldn't want to meet in the street. You feel its ok to say these things about soldiers gaining celebrity status for receiving an award for helping out a fellow human being. To me these are the type of people young people should be looking up too. Like i said before regardless of their profession they have gone above and beyond what is expected of them.

SPSJSAT Mon 16-Dec-13 22:20:03

oh come on

The falklands did not belong britain

Oh dear.

monicalewinski Mon 16-Dec-13 22:20:09

Rose, Rose, Rose!

Bless you, you little cherub!

Perhaps you could furnish me with your woefully uninformed opinion on the other points I raised??

RoseRedder Mon 16-Dec-13 22:21:57

Rose the Falklands are British! Ask the people, they voted that they want to remain British, FFS.

Yes they are now but they weren't before a war broke out over it

ItsAliveItsElectric Mon 16-Dec-13 22:22:04

Nigella, if anyone is mental or brain dead its you. People choose the armed forces for many reasons, and all are proud to serve their country. People like you make me so so angry, you have no idea whatsoever of the sacrifices men and women make. But then you obviously aren't watching this programme or you would show some respect an humility

Do you think we need a "goady" emoticon?
A little teeny tiny goat perhaps?

NigellaLaw5on Mon 16-Dec-13 22:22:58

The people involved in the 1st and 2nd world wars were heroes, forced to go and fight for our freedom.
The people who sign up now are brain dead morons, especially those idiots in the TA.

TheNightIsDark Mon 16-Dec-13 22:23:28

Thursday- probably name changed from Nigella

IamInvisible Mon 16-Dec-13 22:23:31

Whose were they, then Rose?

everydayaschoolday Mon 16-Dec-13 22:23:35

I don't agree with Rose's opinion, but I'm proud to serve in order to give her the freedom, that we all enjoy, to hold and air our opinions openly, freely and safely.

I think Rose's opinion is held in the minority, and I would like to assure the great British public that as a serving member of the Armed Forces, I do feel appreciated and supported by the general public.

I would like to perhaps whisper a gentle reminder to Rose that we actually serve Her Majesty The Queen, not a political party. I hold the Queen's Commission, not Blair's and not Cameron's.

rose, I think it might be a good idea to stop typing now

ChristmasStrumpet Mon 16-Dec-13 22:24:01

Yeah well if our forces personnel didnt follow orders how do you think that would work??

Maybe they could just decide to not bother to help you if YOUR house was on fire in a fire strike or not bother to help in riots if YOUR business was being looted, perhaps they may just decide that today they dont want to burn and bury dead cow carcuss in your locality leaving you and your family with a health risk, they may just tell you to fuck off because of your snippy attitude.

But I doubt it because most of them are very professional about what they do.

How the fuck can you get The Falklands and Kuwait mixed up?

IamInvisible Mon 16-Dec-13 22:24:44

<sits on hands to avoid a ban for what I really want to say to Nigella>

RoseRedder Mon 16-Dec-13 22:25:12

When the fire strikes were happening, who covered? Lockerbie plane crash, who helped pick up the remains of the passengers? Foot & Mouth disease, who dealt with? Flooding and natural disasters, in this country and abroad, who deals with it? The prison officers strike that nearly happened, who was on standby to cover? The Olympics security farce, who stepped in to cover? Mountain and air/sea rescue, who does it?

Well not the military

monicalewinski Mon 16-Dec-13 22:25:12

Nigella Those mental, brain dead buffoons are the very reason that we don't have the draft in this country.

Oh, what a life! If only it were the case that all our children had the opportunity to be forced to join up and experience the horrors of war!

WildThong Mon 16-Dec-13 22:25:26

I think the op sounds like someone who can touch the ground with her knuckles while standing up.
Don't give it oxygen.

TheNightIsDark Mon 16-Dec-13 22:25:45

It's really hard to avoid personal attacks these days on MN. I end up muttering cunt faced nobber under my breath a lot.

halestone Mon 16-Dec-13 22:26:17

Making informed educated opinions are obviously something you struggle with. Maybe go and educate yourself before sprouting them off on a public forum.

LtEveDallas Mon 16-Dec-13 22:26:22

Rose, the Falkland Islanders that were living there when the War broke out were there before and are still there now. They were British before, and are still British now. They always were, and always will be British.

SPSJSAT Mon 16-Dec-13 22:26:24

Rose the Falklands are British! Ask the people, they voted that they want to remain British, FFS.

Yes they are now but they weren't before a war broke out over it

Which nationality were they, Rose?

starsandunicorns Mon 16-Dec-13 22:27:06

Oh yes a goat would be brill

My dp and myself served dp did op granby just beacause you dont want to serve you country op dont look down on the ones that do as a free country we have the choice

ChristmasStrumpet Mon 16-Dec-13 22:27:26

Erm - I think you will find the military did deal with all of those incidents and more.

What do you mean Not the military?? Please explain.

My DH didnt spend a planned Xmas with us cleaning up the dead of Lockerbie.

RoseRedder Mon 16-Dec-13 22:27:35

My opinion is I don't like war

And I hate people joining up , because they may never come home

monicalewinski Mon 16-Dec-13 22:27:53

Rose, are you for real??

You are actually making me laugh now - love you!

You are the shining example of everything that fucks me off in the world!

xxx

ItsAliveItsElectric Mon 16-Dec-13 22:27:55

Have you any idea how offensive you are Nigella? Brain dead morons? Go and fuck off you ridiculous person. You are actually calling the men and women who serve our country brain dead morons? Jesus. You have just called our serving armed forces personnel brain dead. My brother and his comrades picked the pieces of their colleague up in Afghanistan to ensure he had a proper burial. You absolute.....sorry no words to describe you.

Mitchy1nge Mon 16-Dec-13 22:27:58

please can you just say what is a MADE UP WAR

maybe some examples of wars that are not MADE UP

thank you

Why let the facts, any facts, all facts get in the way of an ill-informed rant?

IamInvisible Mon 16-Dec-13 22:29:20

Oh dear Rose! You really are very ill informed, bless you!

SPSJSAT Mon 16-Dec-13 22:29:28

Oh Rrrroooossseee....

Any ideas???

ThursdayLast Mon 16-Dec-13 22:29:45

That's seems pretty likely TheNight grin

There's no educating some folk.
I have learned my lesson about responding on these anti-military threads started by fools. Not good for the BP

halestone Mon 16-Dec-13 22:30:32

Rose yes the military did cover during the fire strikes and also the coal strikes. They also helped cover the olympic shortfall. I am unsure about the rest so will say nothing. Like i have said EDUCATE yourself before sprouting out rubbish!!

And Nigella really??? You feel that it is acceptable to slag off a whole profession of people with different trades as having mental health problems. Maybe you should educate yourself further as well!

ChristmasStrumpet Mon 16-Dec-13 22:30:35

FFS Rose Redder you really are just taking the piss.

Falkland Islanders not british before the war???

You are just trying to wind people up aren't you.

NigellaLaw5on Mon 16-Dec-13 22:34:03

How do the serving personnel feel about the royals when they're sporting row upon row of medals, none of those imposters have seen a fight in their lives yet go around looking every inch the veteran.
That is more disrespectful to soldiers than anything I've said.

WildThong Mon 16-Dec-13 22:35:11

Roses are red
Trolls are green
Some posters on mumsnet are
Not what they seem

ThursdayLast Mon 16-Dec-13 22:35:17

Doesn't make you LESS offensive though.
Excellent logic though, totally distracted us all from the fact you're spouting shite

RoseRedder Mon 16-Dec-13 22:35:19

so why did we invade Afganistan?

Or Iraq?

Or Kuwait?

Or The Falklands

LtEveDallas Mon 16-Dec-13 22:35:35

Rose, you are being foolish. The British Military was at the forefront of all those operations - unless the News has bypassed you for decades, you cannot be unaware of that. You are being deliberately obtuse or simply goading.

chuddies Mon 16-Dec-13 22:36:01

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SPSJSAT Mon 16-Dec-13 22:37:06

How do the serving personnel feel about the royals when they're sporting row upon row of medals, none of those imposters have seen a fight in their lives yet go around looking every inch the veteran.
That is more disrespectful to soldiers than anything I've said.

The several serving personnel I know couldn't give a shiny shit.

HTH

IamInvisible Mon 16-Dec-13 22:38:14

My DH doesn't feel anything towards the Royals Nigella, they don't have any bearing on his daily life.

But then he is a brain dead moron spending Christmas in the non British Falkland Islands. He, also, missed DS1's birthday on Saturday and will miss DS2's on Christmas Eve. When DS2 has surgery in January he won't be here either!

RoseRedder Mon 16-Dec-13 22:39:05

*ChristmasStrumpet Falkland Islanders not british before the war???

The Falkland Islands are just of the coast of Cornwell are they?

No they are of the coast of Argentia ........do you really believe they are Britiish?

LtEveDallas Mon 16-Dec-13 22:40:41

Chuddies. Stop. Go back to ARRSE. We don't need your 'help' here.

Rose.

The Iraqis invaded Kuwait. We didn't.
The Argentinians invaded the Falkland Islands. We didn't.
The British deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan in support of the US and as mandated by the UN and NATO.

IamInvisible Mon 16-Dec-13 22:40:51

Rose are you taking the piss? I really can not tell!

SPSJSAT Mon 16-Dec-13 22:40:58

Still haven't answered my question Rose.

What nationality do you think the Falkland Islanders are?

Mitchy1nge Mon 16-Dec-13 22:41:32

are you sure they're not in the middle east op?

halestone Mon 16-Dec-13 22:41:59

Wow Nigella way to try and divert attention from your quite nasty small minded comments. And just so you know i know alot of Military personnel whom love the Royals and alot who don't but they couldn't care less about there medals. However the comment that you made would make them wonder why they bother to sign up and serve the Uk.

wannakillem Mon 16-Dec-13 22:42:07

I take it then Red that we should be French considering we are off the coast of France???

DeckTheHallsWithBoughsOfHorry Mon 16-Dec-13 22:42:09

They're quite a long way off the Argentinean coast though.

And. Full. Of. British. People.

LtEveDallas Mon 16-Dec-13 22:42:23

The Royals? We don't care. We signed an oath of allegiance to Queen and Country, her heirs and successors. We'd be hypocrites not to stand by that oath. I'm not a hypocrite.

NigellaLaw5on Mon 16-Dec-13 22:44:02

iaminvisible Is it all worth it, missing all these important family times, out getting shot at every day for a pittance. Your DH could probably make more money working in asda or tesco and be home in bed every night. I just can't fathom out what the attraction is.

everydayaschoolday Mon 16-Dec-13 22:44:20

IamInvisible I believe it's always harder for the families left behind than the deployed serviceperson, especially at this the of year or if missing 'milestones'. I hope you're being supported in RL by his Unit and by friends and family. I wish him a speedy return to you all.

chuddies Mon 16-Dec-13 22:44:38

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meditrina Mon 16-Dec-13 22:45:34

"...the royals when they're sporting row upon row of medals, none of those imposters have seen a fight in their lives yet go around looking every inch the veteran"

Even the most cursory look at the Royals medals and military service would show how Prince Philip and Prince Andrew earned those medals on active service (not to mention how the Queen is one of the few monarchs who can strip down a 4 ton truck).

Or are you confusing the earned military medals with other decorations?

IamInvisible Mon 16-Dec-13 22:46:32

Do you have any idea what my DH's rank is Nigella? No, thought not! Asda, Tesco and Sainsburys wouldn't pay the same, or anything like it. He has never been shot at on account of the fact he is an aircraft engineer.

LtEveDallas Mon 16-Dec-13 22:47:02

Nigella, I earn a lot more than I could in Tesco, and get a lot more job satisfaction. The attraction for me was public service - not working harder to make my 'boss' richer, but working harder to make my life better, and the lives of the people I help and protect.

It's interesting, it's rewarding and it's exciting.

WildThong Mon 16-Dec-13 22:47:13

IT WONT GO IF YOU CONTINUE TO FEED IT!
OR ITS MATE NIGELLA...

IamInvisible Mon 16-Dec-13 22:48:45

His unit are being really good, everyday, they have been the most supportive one yet, tbh.
We're on the downward slope now, thankfully, only 5 weeks left to go.

RoseRedder Mon 16-Dec-13 22:49:55

I do not agree with war

I do not agree with government 'recruiting' young men and women to be employed to face a potential death every day

To everyone who has told me to fuck off, and there have been many of you

No I won't because I do not believe in war

IamInvisible Mon 16-Dec-13 22:52:08

Why do the people who start these threads do it when they know nothing about life in the military? It just makes them look thick!

DH does not "face a potential death everyday".hmm

SPSJSAT Mon 16-Dec-13 22:52:35

Don't believe in answering direct questions either, do you Rose?

wannakillem Mon 16-Dec-13 22:53:22

SPSJSAT well said x

chuddies Mon 16-Dec-13 22:54:46

OP... dont like people joining up in case they may die... cool I get that but hey you also could be speaking german if your parents even made it under nazi occupier UK.... how very lucky so so so many stood up and chose to serve fight and die so you can be this fucked up eh?!

big bravo and huzzar to the OP... I have now found a new definition of moron.

Rufustherednosedreindeer Mon 16-Dec-13 22:55:38

<whispers> rose love! I think most people don't like wars???it's the misinformed! ignorant bollocks you are talking that's pissing people off and making them say fuck off

Just felt that should be clarified

halestone Mon 16-Dec-13 22:55:39

The military aren't just about fighting wars! But again you would know that if you just bothered to EDUCATE yourself! So don't fuck off, instead go and do some reading learn some basic things about the Military and also about war. Then come back with a well reasoned argument and not a nasty little OP and people may well respect you a little and you could have an actual conversation then!

Is OP going to start confusing the Falklands with Gibraltar again, like she did last month?

Chesntoots Mon 16-Dec-13 22:58:07

This thread was making me chuckle, right until the point that I realised people like Rose are allowed to vote and serve on a jury. I find that quite scary...

RoseRedder Mon 16-Dec-13 22:58:58

IamInvisible

Why do the people who start these threads do it when they know nothing about life in the military? It just makes them look thick!

perhaps because everyone is allowed an opinion on it?

ThursdayLast Mon 16-Dec-13 22:59:17

I can only imagine the OP gets their kicks from winding people up. No one is seriously this ignorant over and over and over and over again.

everydayaschoolday Mon 16-Dec-13 23:00:05

but a well informed opinion would carry more credibility.

Mitchy1nge Mon 16-Dec-13 23:00:27

to be fair to OP you don't really have to spend much time on internet message boards or any sort of news article that invites 'comments' to appreciate the limitations and drawbacks of both the jury system and democracy as we know it

RoseRedder Mon 16-Dec-13 23:01:22

Chesntoots

right until the point that I realised people like Rose are allowed to vote and serve on a jury. I find that quite scary

Why?

halestone Mon 16-Dec-13 23:07:52

Oh Chesntoots please tell her. As i am struggling to see why she needs to ask that question when its plain for everyone to see.

NigellaLaw5on Mon 16-Dec-13 23:08:36

It's economic times like this that we should be conscripting the work shy and the feckless. All of these reprobates that refuse to earn their keep and see an appearance on Jeremy Kyle as a badge of honour should be forced onto the front line if they want to continue scrounging benefits.

RoseRedder Mon 16-Dec-13 23:09:36

I can only imagine the OP gets their kicks from winding people up. No one is seriously this ignorant over and over and over and over again.

This ingorant......how I'm I igornant?

Read back, there are good many people who argee with me that war is wrong

IamInvisible Mon 16-Dec-13 23:11:31

You can have an opinion, Rose, but I find it is better to have an educated one.

Yellowcake Mon 16-Dec-13 23:11:33

I know nothing about these awards, but anyone at all conversant with British Army activity in Northern Ireland over the bourse of 'Operation Banner' could be forgiven for taking a slightly cynical view of serving soldiers being regarded automatically as heroes.

TheNightIsDark Mon 16-Dec-13 23:12:27

Nigella, be a dear and fuck off back to the daily mail comments pages please.

NigellaLaw5on Mon 16-Dec-13 23:15:19

Petty criminals as well, anybody sentenced to less than 5 years should be forced to serve their time in the army.
Although I can see the danger of turning criminals into trained killers.

ConferencePear Mon 16-Dec-13 23:15:36

Rose, I don't like war either, but I do think that it's sometimes necessary.
I didn't agree with the war in Iraq either but that doesn't mean I'm think we don't need a well-trained professional army.
Without the military would we have been able to stop the slaughter in Sierra Leone ? in Bosnia ?

ThePollyAndTheIvy Mon 16-Dec-13 23:15:37

biscuit

chuddies Mon 16-Dec-13 23:17:01

amazing... i can say fuck fuck anf fuck again... but not post a pic.

I posted a link to a picture of soldiers at lockerbie and the aftermath to help educate rose who thinks the military were not picking bits of peoples up at lockerbie... yes bits dear rose, i have close friends who were there for several days with bin bags, sacks and gloves

my doris pointed me to this troll on mumsnet... what a frigging disgrace to the human condition you are rose... if feel sorry for you

monicalewinski Mon 16-Dec-13 23:17:32

Rose - you say war is wrong, ok.

Is there any circumstance where you would say it is justified?

RoseRedder Mon 16-Dec-13 23:17:34

IamInvisible

who do I get an educted opinion?

I'm only going on what I know

Mitchy1nge Mon 16-Dec-13 23:18:03

OP am sure most people agree war is horrible and wrong whether it is made up or the mysterious Other Kind of war

and many are not fans of commemorating the fallen or are anxious about 'glorifying' combat, but if we didn't then how would the armed forces continue - people wouldn't sign up, and not all are brain dead morons (you couldn't let a brain dead moron pilot a £10million jet would you?) and if we didn't have The Military how would defend our interests in the world, or have any sort of international presence?

RoseRedder Mon 16-Dec-13 23:18:11

sorry how

halestone Mon 16-Dec-13 23:19:14

Ignoring Nigella who is clearly trying to bait people!!

And Rose you have shown your ignorance numerous times on this thread!

I think i shall be leaving this thread now as i feel i am wasting time with someone who clearly is also goading and baiting people. If not then she has shown a spectacular amount of ignorance and i am hoping i do not live in the same area as her, as i would like my DC to be able to show something from their education, which she clearly missed out on!

TheNightIsDark Mon 16-Dec-13 23:19:35

You know nothing RoseRedder

IamInvisible Mon 16-Dec-13 23:19:43

You read and research Rose. You can educate yourself.

You have proved on this thread that you actually don't know very much!

chuddies Mon 16-Dec-13 23:21:42

you have your view yellowcake, maybe op banner we should have done sweet FA and let you all blow the carp out of each other and burn everything... several tours in belfast.... may the lord ensure i never return

you are very welcome btw

Read a quality newspaper everyday.
Listen to the Today programme on Radio 4 every morning.
Watch documentaries on C4 or BBC.
Visit your library and find some books of politics and history.

And ask lots and lots of questions in RL and online.

Then you will be able to start forming opinions that will be worth engaging with.

monicalewinski Mon 16-Dec-13 23:22:21

chuddies, not doing yourself any favours either to be fair - I'm forces too, there's a few of us on this thread.

You're coming across as a bit of a penis and that's just perpetuating the perception that all the small minded wankers have of us.

You'd be more help if you buggered off!!

ConferencePear Mon 16-Dec-13 23:23:07

Rose since you are so clearly anti-war you have a responsibility to educate so that you do not make yourself appear foolish which discredits you. I can't imagine why you think the Falkland Islands was not British before the Falkland War - all you have to do is google.
You would make a better argument if you weren't making so many factual mistakes.

chuddies Mon 16-Dec-13 23:26:04

*chuddies, not doing yourself any favours either to be fair - I'm forces too, there's a few of us on this thread.

You're coming across as a bit of a penis and that's just perpetuating the perception that all the small minded wankers have of us.

You'd be more help if you buggered off!!*

will consider myself checked... touched a very very very raw nerve... that will be me buggering off... enjoy

NigellaLaw5on Mon 16-Dec-13 23:28:22

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

monicalewinski Mon 16-Dec-13 23:28:41

Lol Chuddies! Laters taters grin

TheNightIsDark Mon 16-Dec-13 23:29:50

Pot kettle Nigella

everydayaschoolday Mon 16-Dec-13 23:30:47

MrsCakes I find it difficult to identify any newspaper as 'quality' but thanks for the personal tip fwink fgrin <sorry, couldn't resist name coincidence>

ThursdayLast Mon 16-Dec-13 23:31:07

Hahahahaha,
Nigella, what IS your agenda??

grin everyday.

everydayaschoolday Mon 16-Dec-13 23:33:36

grin

ChristmasStrumpet Mon 16-Dec-13 23:36:07

This is actually quite hilarious now.

Its like starting a thread saying ..... I don't believe in Santa and the reason I dont believe in Santa is because I dont believe in Santa.

Other people agree with me so I must be right.

My reasons for not believing in Santa is that I don't beieve in him.

Its great to have an opinion but dont start spouting about it unless you can back it up with facts not cotton wool floating around in your head.

Am actually laughing here that you actually think like you do and finding it even funnier that you just dont get whats so funny about your posts.

RoseRedder Mon 16-Dec-13 23:36:20

Ok I know nothing

monicalewinski Mon 16-Dec-13 23:36:37

Just got the everyday quip after re-reading it several times fgrin (I am not on the ball today)

thepig Mon 16-Dec-13 23:37:50

Would anyone have a problem with a televised awards ceremony in northern ireland for the ira and unionist fighters?

Just a thought.

Also this 'following orders' thing is the oldest crock of shit since time began.

Should we do some postumous awards for the black and tans? Or how about for the british army torturers in kenya in the 50s?

The majority of the british army do a great job. But this unending need to portray them as heroic role models, always of course supported by nasty little rags of papers like the sun, express and mail...really clouds the debate about their role and the wars they fight in.

Every war involves two sides. We assume one side is good, and the other bad...but let's not forget everyone is 'just following orders'.

So are both sides heroes?

ThursdayLast Mon 16-Dec-13 23:38:18

Ok me too.
(Phew)

TheNightIsDark Mon 16-Dec-13 23:41:44

Still don't get it blush

I'm tired but far too emotionally invested in some threads tonight to sleep.

monicalewinski Mon 16-Dec-13 23:42:12

Rose, seriously, nobody likes war - nobody.

The armed forces are there for many reasons (some of which I listed earlier). If you look at the later posts people have actually tried to explain stuff to you - read and learn, absorb new info and then ask yourself why do we have the armed forces.

Also, the fact that people willingly sign up means that all British citizens aren't forced into conscription.

There's so much more to it than war.

Cityofgold Mon 16-Dec-13 23:44:12

Well Rose I agree with your sentiment, though perhaps not the way you expressed it. I dont know why military personnel should be singled out for such a programme more than, for example, nurses or doctors who also act as 'heroes' in carrying out their everyday jobs. It may be that some individuals go 'above and beyond the call of duty', but the military has their own medal process for such cases and those persons get recognition from people within their own organisation - which is actually what they want and what means something to them. So why have this programme? It was probably no coincidence that the televised awards were started at about the same time as public opinion started to turn against our troops being in Afghanistan, what better was to placate the masses than with a bit of candy flossed sentimentality. It is no accident that the Sun is Britain's most popular, and also most powerful newspaper.

RoseRedder Mon 16-Dec-13 23:46:33

I do not agree with war

everydayaschoolday Mon 16-Dec-13 23:47:11

Sorry, t'was a cr*p joke. My NN is Everyday and first line of MrsCakes post was to advise the OP to 'read a quality newspaper Everyday'. You could read that as advice for Everyday. Yes, was really rubbish fblush I spare the troops from my 'jokes' at work - honest.

TheNightIsDark Mon 16-Dec-13 23:47:12

We've kind of figured that out.

everydayaschoolday Mon 16-Dec-13 23:47:52

Night everyone wine fsmile

TheNightIsDark Mon 16-Dec-13 23:48:39

Ah I get it now grin

everydayaschoolday Mon 16-Dec-13 23:50:36

grin

SantasLittleMonkeyButler Mon 16-Dec-13 23:56:42

<blusters in late to the thread>

An old school friend of mine was nominated for a MILLIE this year.

He's walking the entire coastline of Britain to raise money for Help Foe Heroes (and sleeping rough to raise awareness of the many homeless ex-servicemen).

It's taking 2 years out of his life & is a life-changing thing.

I am proud of him. Regardless of anything else grin.

SantasLittleMonkeyButler Mon 16-Dec-13 23:57:15

Jesus Christ - Help FOR Heroes obviously!

Bogeyface Tue 17-Dec-13 00:02:48

I do think that it is a good way to make the recent conflicts acceptable by focussing on the men and women that fought in them. They are heroes ergo the conflict was heroic. I have a major issue with that.

YEs, they are heroes but it doesnt mean that the cause they fought for was also heroic.

Joysmum Tue 17-Dec-13 00:07:01

Yes the armed forces are wonderful, but they (including members of my own family) chose to do it as a career. Feel sorry that they've been pushed into so my conflicts and wars in my name when I'd not have wanted that. Think they do excellent work following natural disasters around the world.

* chuddies* having done the maths, the people I knew who were involved in the clear up were barely out of school. I know at least one was struggling years later. Brave kids, they were.

OP is just strange though and not worth feeding.

SMorgauseBordOfChristmasTat Tue 17-Dec-13 07:06:29

I can understand where the OP is coming from. I'm also anti war, although I do believe there can be "just wars" - like WW2. However, I'm not anti ordinary military personnel. I do have a massive problem with those higher up the chain, though, but this isn't the thread for it.

I don't think that the military are any more heroic than others who also risk their lives on a daily basis. Their bravery awards aren't televised.

The police and the fire service are rewarded for outstanding acts of bravery but there's no TV programme for them. Even more heroic, to my mind, are those in the lifeboat service who do it all on a voluntary basis.

If we are going to reward bravery on national TV let's reward all the services, especially those who don't get paid for risking their lives.

I declare an interest here as my family has a long history of lifeboat service and I don't think the service has the recognition it deserves.

meditrina Tue 17-Dec-13 07:13:28

Unfortunately, the Sun didn't batten on to RNLI as they did to H4H.

I prefer to support SSAFA, as it helps those from any conflict and their families, and runs all sorts of things like adoption services for military families and secure hostels for dependants leaving abusive set ups.

H4H assists only those from recent conflicts, and I do think that limitation is a turn off for many.

SMorgauseBordOfChristmasTat Tue 17-Dec-13 07:18:13

Good point meditrina. I didn't realise H4H was involved. Not a charity I support. As my father (decorated WW2 veteran) said, "Not all soldiers are heroes."

I do support other charities that look after veterans, though, SSAFA included.

ithaka Tue 17-Dec-13 07:29:40

Well Rose I agree with your sentiment, though perhaps not the way you expressed it. I dont know why military personnel should be singled out for such a programme more than, for example, nurses or doctors who also act as 'heroes' in carrying out their everyday jobs. It may be that some individuals go 'above and beyond the call of duty', but the military has their own medal process for such cases and those persons get recognition from people within their own organisation - which is actually what they want and what means something to them. So why have this programme? It was probably no coincidence that the televised awards were started at about the same time as public opinion started to turn against our troops being in Afghanistan, what better was to placate the masses than with a bit of candy flossed sentimentality. It is no accident that the Sun is Britain's most popular, and also most powerful newspaper.

I had to quote this in full as I completely agree with it. I have noticed that Mumsnet loves to pile on anyone that doesn't support 'our heroes' - which reflects a society in which a knee jerk genuflection to all things military is compulsory & views to the contrary not tolerated.

scaevola Tue 17-Dec-13 07:34:18

There is, of course, a difference between 'not supporting' elements of rhetoric, and actually bashing those who do this job.

There is no need to invent "knee jerk genuflection" if you grasp that distinction.

ElleMcFearsome Tue 17-Dec-13 07:37:01

Good grief OP - do you think anyone is really totally pro-war? I can't remember who it was (maybe Tom Lehrer?) who said it's easy to stand up in front of a crowd and say you're in favour of peace, because, who actually isn't?

Wars happen as a result of intensive discussion because it is felt there is NO other option. No diplomatic option, no other way of exerting pressure to make a regime change, to protect the lives of civilians.

War isn't usually a great option, but sometimes it's the least bad one.

And aren't you bloody lucky that you have a strong country, with a strong defence that enables you to live in a democracy where you are able to spout ungracious drivel about the very people who protect your interests.

ithaka I don't hold with blind support for 'heroes', nor do many contributors to these threads.

When I go to work tomorrow, nobody will have watched this crap (unless possibly a colleague was on it, in which case they'll have fodder to mercilessly take the piss).

This OP has form for starting bizarre, goading threads claiming, among other things, that the British invaded the hitherto unpopulated Falklands in the 1980s. Best ignored, basically (although I see the irony there!).

IamInvisible Tue 17-Dec-13 07:49:53

The Daily Mirror Pride of Britain Awards recognise members of the emergency services, the RNLI, nurses and doctors and the general public. They are also televised.

SMorgauseBordOfChristmasTat Tue 17-Dec-13 08:00:07

Let's include the military in that, then, instead of giving the military a programme all of their own. That's what sits uneasily with me. They are no more heroic than the others.

IamInvisible Tue 17-Dec-13 08:03:33

Take it with the Sun and the Daily Mirror then.

SMorgauseBordOfChristmasTat Tue 17-Dec-13 08:05:19

I'd prefer to avoid The Sun. Their reasons for doing it are purely commercial, same with the Mirror, really.

monicalewinski Tue 17-Dec-13 08:09:55

Totally agree re H4H, when it came about the injured servicemen were getting a very raw deal and almost 'swept under the carpet'.

H4H made a difference at the time, and still does, but the limited nature of it, coupled with the 'heroes' implication is what doesn't sit right with many.

I, too, support SSAFA as they are there for all servicemen - current and ex - and their families, and help in so many ways.

It is also easy to forget that there is more to the armed forces than soldiers - most people in the RAF join up to do a trade, 'being a soldier' is quite frankly the furthest thing from their minds.

There are many, many different facets to the forces - blind worship is ridiculous, but so is blanket disapproval.

Or just don't watch it. It's a vehicle for minor celebs, that's all.

xpost!

SPSJSAT Tue 17-Dec-13 08:26:28

The majority of the british army do a great job. But this unending need to portray them as heroic role models, always of course supported by nasty little rags of papers like the sun, express and mail...really clouds the debate about their role and the wars they fight in.

Most people have the ability to differentiate between the politicians who send troops to war/the rights and songs of that war, and the troops themselves.

Yes, firefighters and the RNLI should have their own, televised awards... But why not argue FOR that, rather than AGAINST any one having one?

Why don't people argue AGAINST Sports Personality of the Year? After all, don't sports people earn enough already and aren't they recognised enough already?

Why's it just the Military Awards that come in for such bashing year on year?

One more thought... The military awards also recognise the families that are left behind, sometimes unable to see - or even speak to - their loved ones for weeks and months on end. I don't think that's a bad thing. It's really only recently (Military Wives Choir, Poppy Girls) that they've had any voice at all.

And Rose' since you still haven't told us who you think the Falklands belong to, I'm going to presume you have no opinion on the matter. How sad that you choose to spout such uninformed bullshit and have to resort to trolling websites to get your kicks.

I pity you.

SPSJSAT Tue 17-Dec-13 08:27:11

rights and wrongs of that war not songs.

IamInvisible Tue 17-Dec-13 08:34:47

These didn't come in for a bashing, did they? Funny that, because teachers are blindly, hero worshiped on MN!

cory Tue 17-Dec-13 09:48:58

To me, there is a difference between firefighters and soldiers.

A firefighter trains and takes his job with the exclusive aim of saving life and property.

A soldier knows that he is ultimately training to kill people. He may do sterling work helping civilians at the same time, but nobody who enlists can possibly be ignorant of the fact that he is also there to be used to kill.

He also knows that once he has enlisted he will not be able to choose not to kill if he thinks the war is unjust or if the target turns out to be civilian. Unlike the soldiers who enlisted specifically to fight against Hitler, a modern professional soldier is taking a job to fight against anyone, on the government's say so.

It seems to me that there is an odd sleight of hand going on here: if the soldier does something we approve of then he gets the credit- he is a hero.

If he does something we disapprove of (such as bombing civilian targets) then it is not his fault because he is acting on orders.

So why does he get the credit when things go right then?

What does make a hero? Surely not risking your life on its own- otherwise we'd consider race track drivers heroes. They risk their lives, they have children too and presumably their families get just as upset when they are killed. But we don't call them heroes. So it can't be that on its own.

It must be something to do with risking your life for the benefit of other people. But in that case, why are we not allowed to ask whether these people are actually risking their lives for our benefit? In other words, why should not their hero status be linked to the perceived value, to the nation and to humankind, of the wars they are fighting?

I do think it is shameful that the government are not doing more for the soldiers who have been fighting their wars. They owe them.

And if a national newspaper wants to organise an award ceremony that is fine by me. Why shouldn't they spend their money in a way that seems good to them?

But as a member of the public, I don't think I owe the soldiers of Britain anything unless I actually believe their sacrifices should have been made in the first place.

What about wars that may actually have put the nation more at risk, by enflaming feelings against us. Do we have to be grateful for those? What about wars where the British army has later been shown to have taken part in atrocities? Do we have to be grateful for that?

Or could we perhaps be allowed to regard those fighting such wars in the light of race track drivers: yes, they are risking their lives, but on the whole I would rather they didn't.

chibi Tue 17-Dec-13 09:58:16

excellent post cory, this is how i feel too.

SPSJSAT Tue 17-Dec-13 10:00:02

Great post Cory

Just one thing... why are we not allowed to ask whether these people are actually risking their lives for our benefit?

You are allowed to question it... And as someone with relatives who have been sent away - repeatedly - on the whim of Cameron/Blair, I hope you do carry on questioning it, vehemently. Perhaps that way, my relatives will be able to stay at home with their families.

In the meantime, yes... I think the jobs my relatives do and the sacrifices they make (both those that serve and their families who stay behind) are pretty heroic.

MrsOakenshield Tue 17-Dec-13 10:04:44

brilliant post cory, wish there was a like/recommend button. Best post on this subject I have read by far.

chibi Tue 17-Dec-13 10:08:40

i would not say heroic, some some actions by some in the military at some times may be.

i think that a blanket 'our boys are heroes' sentiment allows us to ignore all the other things which occur in any military operation. and they do occur, and it isn't just one or two bad apples- from individual abuses committed by individual soldiers to drone strikes on wedding parties.

i am sure no one who is posting or reading has any loved ones who would do such things, but someone's loved one does, and is probably doing it right now.

cory Tue 17-Dec-13 10:13:12

I do see how very hard it must be, SPSJSAT, not least for the families left behind.

But at the same time- your relatives did make that choice. They signed up and took the pay for a job that they knew might include active service. They didn't have to. There is no forced conscription in this country. They chose.

I think that is one of my bug bears: people expect to take the job but not to pay the price.

If you become a soldier, surely you shouldn't complain if you have to go to war?

And if you do go to war= if you go out to kill other people, surely it is a reasonable expectation that other people will try (and may succeed) in killing you?

If you genuinely do that because you are convinced, on good grounds, that it is a job that needs to be done to save other people's lives, then yes, I would agree that makes you a hero.

And there are and there have been heroes like this.

If you take it for the pay and are unpleasantly surprised when you find there is fighting thrown in, then that doesn't seem quite so heroic to me.

Fire fighters don't tend to become fire fighters on the assumption that they won't actually ever have to go into burning buildings.

But I will keep protesting about any war that seems unjust to me. And I sincerely hope your relatives will not have to throw their lives away on some further pointless Cameron/Blair muscle flexing.

happybutgrumpy Tue 17-Dec-13 10:17:48

Morgen
Not claiming to be anything but an observer with an opinion, ex mil and for once utterly speechless at having read this thread having been steered here by mrs happyandgrumpy
To throw my 2p worth into the fray - our shrinking forces will continue to do more with less, the un educated and poorly informed will remain deluded as what the military exactly is beyond the business end of a bayonet. I do however find it incredible that no matter which arm of the military is call upon to assist at home you get a thank you but quickly after from some quarters of society the same old blah blah returns - made up wars??? made up - hello??? did you consume too much buckfast for dinner last night????
As a former soldier amazingly I am against war, but there sometimes is no other option.
Our forces are something to be proud off. Volunteers one and all who follow orders. They deserve our support and recognition especially when they are returned home wounded and broken by battle. Please OP show a little respect.
RoseRedder & NigellaLaw5on, the pair of you can but only be taking the p155 one would seriously hope.
Compliments of the season to all
G&H

LtEveDallas Tue 17-Dec-13 10:19:02

Very measured post Cory. Nice to see some clear and honest views. One thing though, in case you are interested.

Until 1993, females that joined the Forces were "non-combatant". They were considered unable to go to the 'Front Line', no matter what trade. A normal Army career is 22/24 years, so there will still be females (until 2015/17) that joined up with absolutely no expectation of A soldier knows that he is ultimately training to kill people. We were considered females first, tradeswomen second and soldiers third. It was the same for the RAF and RN females, and I also believe at that time the same for male and female medics.

Of course that is all changed, and the females whose contracts changed overnight (bastards!) would have had the opportunity to leave at that point, but I thought you may find that interesting smile

Women can now go to the front line (I had the dubious 'honour' of being one of the first that did, many many years ago), but not in a 'fighting' role - women still cannot join the Infantry or Cavalary for example, but there are certainly some women taking part in patrols etc

SPSJSAT Tue 17-Dec-13 10:20:54

I do see how very hard it must be, SPSJSAT, not least for the families left behind

With the greatest of respect - unless you are one of the family members left behind (and perhaps you are?) you have absolutely no idea. None.

But at the same time- your relatives did make that choice. They signed up and took the pay for a job that they knew might include active service. They didn't have to. There is no forced conscription in this country. They chose.

Of course they chose. If they've been in the Forces for a while the landscape was very different... the 'only' thing on the horizon was NI a few years back - but yes, they chose that career path.

Here's the problem with that argument though. NONE of the serving personnel I know think of themselves as heroes. Not one. They recognise they have a job to do and just do it. They don't ask for hero worship. It's the media that whip it up... not them.

If you take it for the pay and are unpleasantly surprised when you find there is fighting thrown in, then that doesn't seem quite so heroic to me.

Again, I know of no one in the Forces that thinks like this.

But I will keep protesting about any war that seems unjust to me. And I sincerely hope your relatives will not have to throw their lives away on some further pointless Cameron/Blair muscle flexing.

Thank you - so do I.

cory Tue 17-Dec-13 10:22:31

Interesting about female soldiers, LtEve. That would be a different case: changing contracts does complicate the matter, and I do see that it might not be easy to suddenly back out of a job you had chosen in good faith.

uncomfortablydumb Tue 17-Dec-13 10:23:00

Being a bad at spelling does not make you a bad person, having a bad attitude on the other hand...

You are confusing recognising the sacrifices of individuals with glorifying war hmm

hth

projectbabyweight Tue 17-Dec-13 10:27:32

Agree with Cory.

Mrsmorton Tue 17-Dec-13 10:33:35

OP may I be the first to congratulate you on how much your spelling and grammar has improved since you started this ridiculous thread. Perhaps if you read even more widely (a newspaper perhaps) then it would improve further, as would your (currently non existent) grip on current affairs.

ComposHat Tue 17-Dec-13 11:19:05

I have to admit I found the military awards on ITV left me a bit queasy.

I have every sympathy for individual soldiers and acknowledge that many have committed individual acts of heroism whilst deployed in Iraq and Afghanistan. I have friends, colleagues and family members who have been involved in recent conflicts. But the whole rhetoric around these wars is abhorrent.

They Gulf and Afghanistan wars weren't fought 'for us' they aren't keeping us safe, they are dying and being injured to satisfy the vainglorious whims of British and American politicians, this shouldn't be a cause of national mourning not a tacky televised awards ceremony sponsored by a phone-hacking, knicker sniffing rag like the Sun.

The best recognition would be for politicians to properly fund support services for those who come back physically and mentally scarred from the pointless shabby greed driven wars and think twice before playing dice with other people's sons and daughters lives, not schmaltz fest presided over by an X-factor judge and a This Morning

Mitchy1nge Tue 17-Dec-13 11:22:37

am never going to find out what 'made up war' means am I? sad

will just have to imagine my own happy fantasy of dodging landmines and having fun in the jungle, bayoneting the locals and then getting a special award for it all on ITV

Whistleblower0 Tue 17-Dec-13 11:25:54

Cory has summed up exactly my feelings on the subject.

Cityofgold Tue 17-Dec-13 12:07:59

Brilliant post Cory.

However I have to agree with one statement made by SPSJSAT, and that is that those serving do not see themselves or asked to be called heros. They absolutely see themselves doing the job that they are trained for, in complete recognition that this may involve killing, and do not shy away from this or ask for glory.

It also also worth noting that when things go wrong, in most instances the military is harder on their own than perhaps the general public would be. Looking at the recent murder conviction brought against a Royal Marine after court martial, I do wonder whether if he had a public trial by jury, he would have found himself convicted of murder. I personally have my doubts.

I see these awards more to do with generating public hysteria, and it is very convenient for the government to have mass support for the troops whilst they are perhaps participating in 'unjust' wars. Someone said above, people conflate support for troops as support for war. This is why it is wrong.

And to answer why it is different from SPOTY, or such other awards, it is because the subliminal political effects of the military awards on the general population are far more dangerous.

ComposHat Tue 17-Dec-13 12:24:38

I see these awards more to do with generating public hysteria, and it is very convenient for the government to have mass support for the troops whilst they are perhaps participating in 'unjust' wars. Someone said above, people conflate support for troops as support for war. This is why it is wrong.

And to answer why it is different from SPOTY, or such other awards, it is because the subliminal political effects of the military awards on the general population are far more dangerous.

This.

I find it difficult to 'support the troops' when what they are being sent to do something morally repugnant. Sympathy for them and their families yes. Support for them (which implies support for their political paymasters and the war they are fighting in) no. Especially when that 'support' takes the form of glitzy award ceremonies.

Mitchy, I think Battle of the Planets was pretend.

DeckTheHallsWithBoughsOfHorry Tue 17-Dec-13 12:49:55
IamInvisible Tue 17-Dec-13 13:41:31

Firstly, I have said this a million and one times on MN, the Armed Force does not just consist of soldiers, their are airmen, sailors and marines as well.

A soldier knows that he is ultimately training to kill people
My husband joined the RAF and trained to be an aircraft engineer, not kill people.

Yes, people voluntarily join the Forces, which is just as well because if they didn't people would be forced. What would you prefer?

SMorgauseBordOfChristmasTat Tue 17-Dec-13 13:45:33

Brilliant post, Cory

JanineStHubbins Tue 17-Dec-13 13:48:42

IamInvisible I think that's another sleight of hand - your husband joined an organisation that is geared around killing people or threatening to kill people. He might not actively do that himself, but he is part of that system.

I also agree with cory's post.

monicalewinski Tue 17-Dec-13 13:51:09

IamInvisible, I am an aircraft engineer - the day I have to put my spanner down and pick up a gun is the day it's properly gone to ratshit imo.

I have always been a specialist first, soldier second - 90% of personnel in the RAF have this opinion.

Absolutely agree too re voluntarily joining - this is another of my bugbears. If there were no volunteers, there would be conscription.

monicalewinski Tue 17-Dec-13 13:55:50

Janine, the RAF is not "geared around killing people or threatening to kill people".

It's primary role is the defence of our country's airspace.

Google QRA (Quick Reaction Alert).

IamInvisible Tue 17-Dec-13 13:57:13

Exactly Monica.

Janine, he was not/is not ultimately trained to kill people which is what Cory claimed!

Mitchy1nge Tue 17-Dec-13 13:58:08

but that does involve killing people

if you fly a tornado, for example, you learn how to shoot down passenger jets in the event of a recurrence of September 11

monicalewinski Tue 17-Dec-13 14:05:12

It's the implied threat that we have the capability to shoot you down - how many passenger aircraft have been shot down over Britain since 9/11 Mitchy?

How many Russian aircraft have been shot down over Britain since the 60s?

None.

I have scrambled countless times on QRA and not once has the aircraft shot anything down - the implied threat was enough.

JanineStHubbins Tue 17-Dec-13 14:22:47

Ah, so you just threaten to kill people, monica.

MrsTerrysChocolateOrange Tue 17-Dec-13 14:28:24

Just on the point that if there was no volunteers there would be conscripts. Costa Rica, amongst others, has no standing army. Japan has a 'defense force' which does the earthquakes and fire strikes but no standing armed forces. I know there are issues with NATO and Europe and our commitments but we don't actually have to have standing army.

Mitchy1nge Tue 17-Dec-13 14:29:34

but we don't just defend our own airspace do we? we sent fighter pilots to italy not so long ago in readiness for aerial combat in some other crisis or other (syria?) there is often something exciting happening

anyway am not anti-military, I grew up on and around USAFE bases, am just saying we can't pretend that airforce personnel are not trained to kill or to support those who are trained to kill - whether you agree with our right to do so in defence of whatever interests, that's what all the armed forces are there for isn't it?

monicalewinski Tue 17-Dec-13 14:29:39

Let people know that we have the capability to inflict damage if they strike us first Janine, yes.

A bit like me saying - if you punch me in the mouth I will knock you out. Doesn't mean I'm wandering around threatening to knock everyone out, just letting them know that I am able and will knock them out if they hit me first.

Does that make it clearer??

JanineStHubbins Tue 17-Dec-13 14:32:11

if you punch me in the mouth I will knock you out. Doesn't mean I'm wandering around threatening to knock everyone out, just letting them know that I am able and will knock them out if they hit me first.

That's quite revealing, actually.

Mitchy1nge Tue 17-Dec-13 14:32:21

I think we have to have some sort of visible threat. I just remember thinking what an awful thing to have to prepare for, the possibility of shooting down a plane full of your own civilians.

but it is not the fault of the armed forces that people have to train for such a possibility, we just live in a horrible world

monicalewinski Tue 17-Dec-13 14:36:18

I see what you're saying Mitchy, and I agree - we are ultimately soldiers. My point is though, that for the actual people in the RAF, they are not. (iyswim)

I joined up at 20 because I needed a job. There was no soul searching, or thinking about war etc, I just needed a job. The RAF gave me a decent wage with 3 meals a day and a roof over my head - it was good fun and I learned a trade.

That's it really, most people are like me - that's why it's annoying when people say 'well you knew what you were joining to do', well of course I did, but it really, truly was the furthest thing from my mind at the time.

SPSJSAT Tue 17-Dec-13 14:37:43

That's quite revealing, actually.

Not really, it's just an analogy that anyone can understand.

But I can see how it's convenient for the 'all Armed Forces are thugs' party though.

monicalewinski Tue 17-Dec-13 14:39:42

Mitchy, just x posted with your last one - what you just said is exactly what I feel. It's awful that we live in that world, but we do, so we need the deterrent.

I have loved my job, but it does not mean that I agree with everything I have had to do - but I have to do it because it is my job. I could leave, but ultimately I am selfish, and I want my pension.

Janine, what is revealing?

SPSJSAT Tue 17-Dec-13 14:44:01

One person I know would get half the people on here in a right tizzy

His job is to protect people (including civilians), potentially by killing other people (he's a body guard who has looked after, among other people, civilian diplomats)

I wonder where he fits on people's ideas of 'hero' vs 'nasty soldier who's out to just kill innocent people' (ie the two extremes of this particular argument)

monicalewinski Tue 17-Dec-13 14:47:54

SPSJSAT

Armed police response teams are another example. Hero or wannabe murderer?

thebody Tue 17-Dec-13 14:51:44

it would be lovely to live in a world free from nasty terrorists, dictators and evil.

afraid we don't

so very glad there are some people willing to step up to the plate and protect us.

MrsTerrysChocolateOrange Tue 17-Dec-13 14:55:48

thebody do you really think that the armed forces protect us from terrorists? They may, through no fault of their own, actually increase terrorism. I can pretty much guarantee that the recent murder of a wounded enemy combatant sent young men into the arms of the extremists. If someone was sending armed people into my country, I might be part of the resistance, as I think they probably see it.

SPSJSAT Tue 17-Dec-13 14:58:48

Tell you what I don't understand on these threads.

In ALL walks of life there are 'good' people and 'bad' people, then shades of grey in between. There seem to be people who have trouble realising and acknowledging this (on both 'sides')

The serving members of our Armed Forces I'm friends with are all lovely. But I'm under no illusion whatsoever that not all members of the Forces are. There are good and bad apples.

Sometimes, members of the Forces do heroic things (i.e. like some of the things on 'The Millies'). Sometimes they do awful things and - when this happens, they are hopefully caught and punished, just like the recent murder trial.

The media has become obsessed with lauding them as 'heroes' no matter whether they are the 'heroic' types - or the genuine murders like Alexander Blackman - that is where the issue lies IMO when you have people saying he should have been 'let off'. No, he bloody well shouldn't have been.

Truth is, they are not all 'heroes' and I don't expect anyone to think ANY of them are heroes.

But don't tell me it's wrong for me to think some of the ones I know are heroic either.

thebody Tue 17-Dec-13 15:25:55

MrsT the London tube bombers were british citizens. no one had invaded their country.

the IRA planted countless bombs and no one had invaded their country.

MrsTerrysChocolateOrange Tue 17-Dec-13 15:29:19

the IRA planted countless bombs and no one had invaded their country. Oh dear. I think you will find that they think someone did.

Also, a civil defense force can deal with home-grown terrorists. Or, shock the Police.

monicalewinski Tue 17-Dec-13 15:36:04

SPSJSAT

Yes yes yes yes yes.

For most of us in the RAF it is just a job. One we will have to leave at a certain age point, when we will go on and do something else.

Just because I happen to be one of thousands of people fixing aeroplanes I am not in any way a mouthpiece for/condoner of government policy.

I am not, however some sort of rabid murderer - I have 2 children and a cat and a husband and that is what my life is all about when I'm not at work.

Most people are like me - there are wankers, but there are wankers in every job.

thebody Tue 17-Dec-13 15:47:41

yes regards Ireland partition in the twenties had no excuses for bombs in the 80s although granted the Protestant majority treated the Catholics disgracefully.

regards the anti terror police yes they do deal with it. I never said they didn't.

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