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Some f**king old bag

(247 Posts)
Mummasmurf Sun 15-Dec-13 17:31:25

Is it me?

We moved towns in July and started going to the local church. I joined the choir in November (half of which can't sing). A few weeks ago one of the old bags shouted loudly that she wished my DD would stop running round. I glared at her. The "running round" was that she went to the back of the church and came back to tell the choir master it sounded "beautiful".

Tonight we were at a Christingle service (a kids service basically) and she loudly had a go again cos the DD stood up to have a look at the goings on.

I'm really pissed off at her and now I don't know whether I should bother going back. The other women said she was out of order and don't let it get to me. It's just that when it's your kids someone's having a go at it's worse than if she was having a go at me.

GiveItYourBestStockings Sun 15-Dec-13 17:35:13

Is it generally a child-friendly church? Our vicar is making a big effort to welcome and include children, we had a wee boy running up and down the aisle at Christingle and she said maybe all the children would like to join him and come and dance at the front, which I thought was lovely.

BitOfFunWithSanta Sun 15-Dec-13 17:38:36

What an overreaction on your part- and a really horrible thread title. It's such an unpleasant way to talk about an older woman- you'll be one too one day, you know.

VerySmallSqueak Sun 15-Dec-13 17:40:26

I would shout loudly back that I wished she could be more tolerant of children unless she wants the church to die with her generation.

But I am a gobby non believer,so possibly not the best way forward.....

DivingBell Sun 15-Dec-13 17:40:43

I think it's you.

HTH fsmile

HyvaPaiva Sun 15-Dec-13 17:40:53

Fucking old bag? Glared?

shock

Horrible, just horrible. Your behaviour, not hers.

JanineStHubbins Sun 15-Dec-13 17:40:56

Your OP comes across as horribly misogynstic and ageist.

Do your fellow choir-members know what nasty opinions you hold of them?

Groovee Sun 15-Dec-13 17:42:08

Ignore her. There is always one in every church.

complexnumber Sun 15-Dec-13 17:42:16

Mince pies at dawn!

Salmotrutta Sun 15-Dec-13 17:42:17

one of the old bags hmm

So not only have you called someone a horrible name in your title but you have classed all the older women as "old bags"

Maybe your child was being annoying or maybe she wasn't.

But you sound charming...

SecretSantaFix Sun 15-Dec-13 17:42:50

How old is your dd, by the way?

usualsuspect Sun 15-Dec-13 17:43:37

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

Salmotrutta Sun 15-Dec-13 17:44:02

Now now usual wink

Tinks42 Sun 15-Dec-13 17:44:35

Oh dear, does everyone "have" to be able to sing to join the choir? Now you're calling people old bags? really? I don't go to church very often etc. but even at a childs service I'd expect the parent not to let a child run up and down the isles etc.

paxtecum Sun 15-Dec-13 17:45:38

OP: Are you happy in your new town?

Or did you prefer were you used to live?

MrsBramleyApple Sun 15-Dec-13 17:46:30

I'm glad you don't come to our church!

ItsIgginningToLookALotLikeXmas Sun 15-Dec-13 17:46:53

I hope you would speak in a less offensive manner when not angry about your dc being criticised. Regarding a Christingle service it should indeed be one to attract the whole family.
Which type of church is it in general - a tolerant-of-children-playing one or a keep-them-quiet-and-motionless one? If the former, then it is just one person so ignore them. If the later, I'd look for another church since you have a small child. Either way, hoping you come back on to say sorry for the language in your OP. fsmile

LadyBeagleEyes Sun 15-Dec-13 17:46:54

I hate the expression old bag.
Maybe they just don't like you OP, and with your attitude I can understand why.
From a fellow old bag.

maresedotes Sun 15-Dec-13 17:47:00

You both sound as charming as each other. Going to church and being nice to one and all doesn't seem to be working does it?

DejaVuAllOverAgain Sun 15-Dec-13 17:47:09

Well, aren't you charming hmm

Alliwantisaroomsomewhere Sun 15-Dec-13 17:47:23

I did not know you could go to church and say fucking. grin

saulaboutme Sun 15-Dec-13 17:48:21

Yanbu but don't seeth, tell her!

She is obviously not child friendly. There is a woman at my,church like this and I told her to NOT boss my dcs or nit pick at them in get horrible way.

She hates my guts now but I thought F you! She doesn't own the church it the choir and she sounds like a bully.

stickysausages Sun 15-Dec-13 17:48:44

You sound delightful biscuit

Let me know where the church is, and I'll bring my DDs round. They can never sit still in church, but no one has ever said anything to me about them and they are all very welcoming.

The thing is, if we don't allow children and families into church, then the church will die out. Speak to the Vicar and see what their policy is. They will probably be very supportive and might even take the women aside for a chat. Don't let it stop you going.

livinginawinterwonderland Sun 15-Dec-13 17:49:25

Old bags? hmm

stickysausages Sun 15-Dec-13 17:49:54

Sorry, have a christingle one instead fbiscuit

usualsuspect Sun 15-Dec-13 17:50:11

Yeah the vicar might ban all the old bags.

But I agree that you need to be a little more tactful. Turn the other cheek and all that!

carabos Sun 15-Dec-13 17:50:20

Peace on earth and goodwill to all fucking old bags who can't sing men. How very Christian of you OP.

Catsize Sun 15-Dec-13 17:50:28

It all sounds very Christian and tolerant in this season of goodwill to all bags.

Chippednailvarnish Sun 15-Dec-13 17:51:52

It's most certainly you. And I bet she and a fair few of the choir and congregation can't wait to see the back of you.

Salmotrutta Sun 15-Dec-13 17:53:00

I'm an old bag too.

Comes to us all eventually... sad

usualsuspect Sun 15-Dec-13 17:53:23

Oh little choir of fucking old bags
How much you moan at kids
You cannot sing a fucking note
So stop with that awful din.

Salmotrutta Sun 15-Dec-13 17:54:37

Lol!

Tinks42 Sun 15-Dec-13 17:54:42

Im the "old bag" well not literally, I work with young children and they should still be taught when to and when not to run around, a restaurant no matter how "child friendly" and a church for god sake grin

That is not what I meant, Usual...

The Vicar might well be best placed to avoid a confrontation. It would be a shame if insults were traded and there was a lot of bad feeling. A well run church should be able to consider the needs of all the congregation.

RunRunRuby Sun 15-Dec-13 17:56:01

She sounds a bit rude but so do you, from your OP. When your daughter stood up was she blocking other people from seeing? Because I would find that irritating. I try to be tolerant of children in church but some of the ones at ours are very loud throughout the service. However I don't write them all off as little brats just because a few are badly behaved. No need to be rude about all of the older ladies just because one was a bit rude to you!

JodieGarberJacob Sun 15-Dec-13 17:56:56

It's ridiculous that we still allow old people to have opinions let alone voice them. I think if you are a woman over 60 and are not tolerant of annoying children then you should be put down immediately.

stooshe Sun 15-Dec-13 17:57:30

Now I know why going to church is not a great indicator of Christianity.
"half of them can't sing". "old bag". OP, maybe you need to go somewhere where you don't look down on people and where your talents will better shine? I know how frustrating it can be when one feels that they are being held back.
Be an example to your child. Show her that women can reach for the stars and do NOT have to slum it in order to seem pleasant and inclusive.
Personally, I wouldn't mind a return to real divas in the pop world. Mariah is the last one standing and she can't do it on her own.

formerbabe Sun 15-Dec-13 17:57:55

I agree with you op...she does sound like an old bag...what a nasty reaction to a child.

Nanny0gg Sun 15-Dec-13 17:58:26

So, you're the 'newcomer' and you want it all to run your way, rather than fitting in now and maybe changing attitudes over time?

Way to go with that one.

ReluctantBeing Sun 15-Dec-13 17:59:16

Your child was running and disrupting a choir practice. Your child stood up in a church service. What a little bag she is.

JanineStHubbins Sun 15-Dec-13 18:00:09

Is this the same DD that you feel should get three birthday presents from all your friends with three DCs, otherwise it's not fair?

HairyGrotter Sun 15-Dec-13 18:00:36

Ahaha oh Christians, you are a fucking riot confused

formerbabe Sun 15-Dec-13 18:01:00

A child is innocent and still learning...so what she stood up to have a look. The 'old bag' sounds like a nasty, hypocritical piece of work.

Nocomet Sun 15-Dec-13 18:01:16

There is always one.
We have a very prickly retired teacher. She works incredibly hard for the church and as does her DH (he's also an ex teacher)

Her DH is lovely and I've heard him contradict her totally after she's sniped at DD1.

How on Gods green earth they remain married, heaven knows.

Certainly if we didn't all like and respect him, we would have told her to fuck off.

theeverydaydancer Sun 15-Dec-13 18:01:24

Tell her old age is no excuse to be rude and remind her that she was a kid once too.

Salmotrutta Sun 15-Dec-13 18:02:36

stooshe - was your tongue firmly in your cheek when you wrote the latter part of your post?

I hope so... Love a bit of sarcasm I do grin

usualsuspect Sun 15-Dec-13 18:03:03

All this swearing in church is a bit shock

Salmotrutta Sun 15-Dec-13 18:04:11

Nasty and hypocritical for asking a child to sit down formerbabe?

How so?

Are you a friend of the OP?

oldbaghere Sun 15-Dec-13 18:04:12

And this is why I don't ever go to church. Because it's all love and understanding. Not.

VerySmallSqueak Sun 15-Dec-13 18:04:25

Some of us old bags find a happy child enjoying being in the church is the only amusement we can find when put in a position that we have to go to church.

I love watching the little kids 'misbehaving'. My kids thought churches were castles when they were tiny,and just loved being in them.

HairyGrotter Sun 15-Dec-13 18:04:34

It's all go in the church...packed to the crucifixes with hypocrites and horrors..! Enjoy grin

formerbabe Sun 15-Dec-13 18:05:09

To be honest, some of the most religious people (inc all religions here by the way) that I know are also the most nasty people I know.

Salmotrutta Sun 15-Dec-13 18:05:36

I know a fair few religious people (unlike me) and they never swear.

usualsuspect Sun 15-Dec-13 18:05:58

Was it Enda from Emmerdale?

usualsuspect Sun 15-Dec-13 18:06:26

Or her sister Edna

Salmotrutta Sun 15-Dec-13 18:07:21

Are you going to explain why the "old bag" was hypocritical formerbabe?

Hypocrisy doesn't mean telling off children as far as I know?

RaRa1988 Sun 15-Dec-13 18:07:39

Good grief. Reinforces the idea that religion is the source of most evil in the world hmm . Can't figure out who's the most intolerant - the OP or the 'old bag'!

formerbabe Sun 15-Dec-13 18:08:45

I would imagine she considers herself moral and compassionate if she has a faith and worships regularly and I don't think she acted very kindly to a young child.

Salmotrutta Sun 15-Dec-13 18:09:11

Or do you mean the "suffer the little children" aspect?

Unless the old bag was the vicar or Jesus I don't see hypocrisy.

Salmotrutta Sun 15-Dec-13 18:10:15

Or maybe she's old school Christian?

Spare the rod and spoil the child etc.

Salmotrutta Sun 15-Dec-13 18:11:15

Or was that Old Testament?

I don't know why I even care confused

Mummasmurf Sun 15-Dec-13 18:11:22

Thanks for your support, I'm sure that's what this site was for?

Of course I came on here for a rant rather than telling her what I thought of her. Maybe I have it all wrong..

No my DD wasn't blocking her view.

Yes I am otherwise happy.

Yes I am good natured, I guess I'm not in the clique.

PresidentServalan Sun 15-Dec-13 18:11:35

You do know that not all people think your little darling is as charming as you do, don't you OP?

And I agree with PPs - your description of the woman is vile.

formerbabe Sun 15-Dec-13 18:12:52

I think the op is right...I would have called her an 'old bag' to her face.

Alliwantisaroomsomewhere Sun 15-Dec-13 18:13:58

OP, it is not a case of not being in "the clique". That's a childish thing to say. You were nasty about a group of women at your church. That's what the uproar is about.

Get a grip. Or get a fucking grip.

herethereandeverywhere Sun 15-Dec-13 18:14:23

Wonderful Christian attitudes from all parties involved hmm

Salmotrutta Sun 15-Dec-13 18:14:32

I doubt I'll ever support someone who comes on here and lumps all older women together insultingly by using the phrase :-

one of the old bags

Golddigger Sun 15-Dec-13 18:15:25

I personally wouldnt want you to stop going to church because of that. Have a word with the vicar.
[yes I know that the op is bandiing words about]. But I believe that a church, and the people in it, should learn to be tolerant. Peace and all that.

Latara Sun 15-Dec-13 18:16:22

This thread illustrates why I don't go to church or call myself a practising Christian.

Neither the old lady in the OP or the OP herself demonstrate very kind Christian ''turn the other cheek'' attitudes - I find many 'Christians' to be hypocritical like that, sorry.

Canidae Sun 15-Dec-13 18:17:20

If this one woman upset you, why are they all 'old bags'? Because they can't sing? Charming.

TondelayoSchwarzkopf Sun 15-Dec-13 18:17:22

You Christians truly do set examples to the rest of us.

MiracleOntheM4 Sun 15-Dec-13 18:18:15

The site is very supportive for those who need help/advice not to vindicate shitty behaviour.

oldbaghere Sun 15-Dec-13 18:18:20

But OP your rant wasn't just about one "old bag". You lumped all the older women together AND you disparaged the fact they can't sing - so what if they enjoy it and feel it's an appropriate way to show their love of God.

Can you see that?

JodieGarberJacob Sun 15-Dec-13 18:19:02

I think this is an older person feeling that the mother is allowing her child to misbehave but saying it obliquely. What is a mother's indulgent moment is another person's irritation. Tolerance all round needed. Maybe you need to join a church?

VerySmallSqueak Sun 15-Dec-13 18:20:03

I think that the shit isn't all flowing in one direction.

The woman was intolerant of the op's DD,and that has pissed the op off.

While the op is being thoughtless in the choice of language,I think I would be riled and not feeling the love towards the 'old bag'.

ButterflyJenn14 Sun 15-Dec-13 18:20:18

I would have told the fuckin old bag to shove her christingle up her ass, give her something to really be uptight about!

ilovesooty Sun 15-Dec-13 18:22:13

You think you've been criticised and posters find your attitude unpleasant because you're not in some kind of clique? Get over yourself.

Your thread title was thoroughly unpleasant, as was your OP. I think you need to take a good hard look at yourself and your attitudes if you're unable to comprehend that.

LifeIsBetterInFlipFlops Sun 15-Dec-13 18:22:29

If you keep your DD next to you - problem solved.

Which clique would that be?

The be polite to other people clique? Don't call people names clique?

You're right. You don't belong to that clique.

Too bad for you. We have wine every night.

NoComet Sun 15-Dec-13 18:25:55

DMIL used to complain bitterly about the singing abilities of some of the choir. Ours isn't at all bad. Mind you I am biased DD1 sings solos for them.

ilovesooty Sun 15-Dec-13 18:26:12

Butterfly was that a s
erious comment? If so you make the OP seem positively pleasant.

Rissolesfortea Sun 15-Dec-13 18:26:38

Ah, not very christian are you? despite going to church. Another "old bag" here fconfused

formerbabe Sun 15-Dec-13 18:27:11

I know its childish but the 'old bag' started it.

monicalewinski Sun 15-Dec-13 18:28:19

Fucking hell.

I was all geared up to start being a Christian next week due to the fact that they're all 'turn the other cheek' and all that - and I'm such an old bitch usually.

I shan't now, if it's just a bunch of grumpy old bags and young bags with errant children who can't behave - it would just end up in me being even more unreasonable than I already am.

usualsuspect Sun 15-Dec-13 18:28:44

We have special 'Old bag' wine.In the 'Old bag' clique.And werthers.

LifeIsBetterInFlipFlops Sun 15-Dec-13 18:28:44

Errr - formerbabe, the OP started it by not keeping her daughter by her side.

Salmotrutta Sun 15-Dec-13 18:32:06

And don't forget the tartan rugs for our knees usual

ilovesooty Sun 15-Dec-13 18:33:27

Perhaps formerbabe thinks they started it by not being good enough singers?

Golddigger Sun 15-Dec-13 18:34:04

All churches are different. Unfortunately, there are some people in them who are not so charitable as they should be.
I would say to the op, others, and to monicalewinski, that if you dont like one for whatever reason, try another.

Joysmum Sun 15-Dec-13 18:34:30

Great Christian attitude there.

Rissolesfortea Sun 15-Dec-13 18:34:33

Tartan rugs? I have a hand crochet shawl and a rocking chair, so there!

Elsiequadrille Sun 15-Dec-13 18:34:46

I think the woman in question was really quite intolerant, especially to speak out so. Don't let her put you off attending.

However, agree thread title was ill judged.

Lemonraisin Sun 15-Dec-13 18:35:21

I opened this up hoping this was about an actual bag and find out what it had done so wrong. Disappointed.

Elsiequadrille Sun 15-Dec-13 18:37:30

The other women agreed she was out of order, too. I think you should take their advice and try not to let it get to you.

LadyBeagleEyes Sun 15-Dec-13 18:38:22

You'll find OP that there's a lot of older MNers on here that object to ageist comments, I think you need to start a young bag clique.

formerbabe Sun 15-Dec-13 18:39:07

It was a children oriented service and the child wanted to stand up to see what was going on...I don't think that warrants unpleasantness.

Whistleblower0 Sun 15-Dec-13 18:39:18

Ah OP, you're of those indulgent mothers who cannot possibly see that what you interpret as your child being spirited or some such shite, others prabably see as plain bad behaviour!
I think the 'old bags' might just be hoping that you dont come back[ smile]
Perhaps you could channel your talents elsewhere. Am dram might be the way to go for you, - you being such a drama lamawink

ZenNudist Sun 15-Dec-13 18:40:19

If my dc didn't sit quietly in their seats in church I'd be mortified. It's not a place for wandering about, especially when a choir is singing.

As for christingle I know its children's service but they still need to be told to sit down. Perhaps she thinks your parenting is lax.

From your title I was expecting rough geriatric stole your shopping. I wasn't expecting choir masters & church.

LifeIsBetterInFlipFlops Sun 15-Dec-13 18:40:26

To be honest, nothing warrants the unpleasantness - but it's there in both parties.

Salmotrutta Sun 15-Dec-13 18:41:56

You have rocking chair Rissoles?

envy

Nanny0gg Sun 15-Dec-13 18:43:44

I know you shouldn't bring other threads in, but-

Entitled, much, OP?

We actually have wine flavoured wethers.

But only old bags get some.

They are the true Wethers Original.

Pagwatch Sun 15-Dec-13 18:45:39

I'd love a rocking chair. It would be so great after a hard day being a curmudgeon

Rissolesfortea Sun 15-Dec-13 18:45:53

Not a rocking chair as such Salmotrutta more of a chair with a wonky leg.

ilovesooty Sun 15-Dec-13 18:47:02

I suspect the OP isn't upset by someone "having a go" at her daughter. She's smarting because her parenting has been criticised and she obviously feels that there was nothing unacceptable about her child's behaviour. The other lady felt differently.

LineRunner Sun 15-Dec-13 18:47:03

I am an old hag and I have spiders in my hair.

Canidae Sun 15-Dec-13 18:49:49

At what age does one get to be an 'old bag'? I would love a rocking chair.

JodieGarberJacob Sun 15-Dec-13 18:49:55

I have breath that smells of Parma Violets and I put my little finger into babies mouths.

Rissolesfortea Sun 15-Dec-13 18:52:15

Wine flavoured Werthers! What is the world coming to? fshock

VerySmallSqueak Sun 15-Dec-13 18:52:21

I smell of boiled cabbage and honeysuckle talc.

Salmotrutta Sun 15-Dec-13 18:52:53

shock.

How could you do such a dreadful thing Jodie!

NewtRipley Sun 15-Dec-13 18:53:09

"I guess i'm not in the clique"

Aaaaaaah. I seeeeeee.

ParsleyTheLioness Sun 15-Dec-13 18:53:55

You might like to consider how hypocritical it is to hold such gobsmackingly unchristian and downright nasty views and still be going to church OP. People like you were one of the reasons I stopped going to church. People who claimed to be Christian, but were just really quite unpleasant. Give me the generally pleasant heathen masses any day.

Salmotrutta Sun 15-Dec-13 18:54:20

Wine flavored Werthers are like Fruit Pastille ice lollies.

Wrong, wrong, wrong!

<grumbles in an old bag way>

OneHandFlapping Sun 15-Dec-13 18:54:56

I could bring a thermos flask of tea...

JodieGarberJacob Sun 15-Dec-13 18:55:59

Darn! Babies' mouths I meant. This is what happens when you get old, you lose your grip on apostrophe shenanigans.

DejaVuAllOverAgain Sun 15-Dec-13 18:56:03

Not a rocking chair as such Salmotrutta more of a chair with a wonky leg.

gringringrin

Lj8893 Sun 15-Dec-13 18:56:18

Ahh typical AIBU!

AIBU?

YABU.

Ahh cry winge you all hate me you bunch of vipers.

Golddigger Sun 15-Dec-13 18:57:28

A church is for sinners. We are all sinners in one way or another.

Golddigger Sun 15-Dec-13 18:58:28

We hopefully become less sinful. We never become perfect.

I have a rocking chair. It lives in our bedroom and is a nice place to hang jeans and jumpers.

I would sit in it if we had room for it downstairs.

But we don't.

Salmotrutta Sun 15-Dec-13 19:00:28

Speak for yourself Golddigger...

JodieGarberJacob Sun 15-Dec-13 19:00:32

Don't hog all that honeysuckle talc! I'm on my last shake of Yardley Mothball and Lavender and I'll need the rush.

Salmotrutta Sun 15-Dec-13 19:01:12

So it's a chair-drone then Tee?

grin

Salmotrutta Sun 15-Dec-13 19:01:43

Chair drobe!!

Salmotrutta Sun 15-Dec-13 19:02:31

You could have some of my Tweed Jodie?

<generous>

VerySmallSqueak Sun 15-Dec-13 19:02:53

I can scoop the last bits off the floor if you want Jodie.
Don't you worry about the black bits - it's just the little bits off my toenails where I've got a bit of fungus.

A misquote:

"'The wired up gentleman flying this thing says we have about 20 minutes until they can no longer blow us out of the sky, if you have any sins you want to confess.'

'I said I didn't. But then remembered some I cherish, so I told Stu those. That led to some of his own.

The 20 minutes passed before we had run out of sins.'"

The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, by Robert A Heinlein

JodieGarberJacob Sun 15-Dec-13 19:05:37

That's decent of you but I'm more of a Coty L'Aimant kind of old bag.

SatinSandals Sun 15-Dec-13 19:05:38

Why is age relevant? There are intolerant people of all ages.

GoshAnneGorilla Sun 15-Dec-13 19:06:28

I was hoping that this was a thread about how awful it is to refer to older women as "old bags", but apparently not.

thebody Sun 15-Dec-13 19:06:40

I am not a regular church gore but on the occasions I did take my dcs I insisted they sit down, behave, and be respectful.

sane as in a restaurant or at the cinema.

absolutely bloody hate parents who let their children run wild and expect everyone else to smile fondly and think, like you that ch

thebody Sun 15-Dec-13 19:08:57

hell, that children's rights to disrupt and run around trumps all.

my 4 were under control. especially in church, it's not soft play!!

your language and ageism is vile. suggest you perhaps need to listen to the lady and control your dd.

JodieGarberJacob Sun 15-Dec-13 19:10:04

Toenail fungus! < vomits over grandad> Although honestly squeak, I probably wouldn't notice, what with my cataracts and all.

Salmotrutta Sun 15-Dec-13 19:12:01

Do they still make Coty L'Aimant?

VerySmallSqueak Sun 15-Dec-13 19:14:02

Hehehehe Jodie. grin

garlicbaubles Sun 15-Dec-13 19:15:17

How is her age relevant? Would you have said "some black cow" or "some crippled witch"?

GoofyIsACow Sun 15-Dec-13 19:15:24

Good god!

VerySmallSqueak Sun 15-Dec-13 19:15:34

I used to love that Salmo.

When I was young enough to wear scent,that is.

Now it irritates me in my folds.

garlicbaubles Sun 15-Dec-13 19:16:35

Oops, cross-posted with a few while steaming!

<waits for own post to be deleted while OP stands>

Coldlightofday Sun 15-Dec-13 19:17:29

I did not know you could go to church and say fucking. grin

This made me laugh.

I imagine Alliwant is going convert, with this new information

iklboo Sun 15-Dec-13 19:17:30

I'd come but I've got my big lady pants on a boil wash on the stove. It's the only way I can get the Anusol & horse liniment out.

BoffinMum Sun 15-Dec-13 19:18:26

Well she sounds like an old bag to me, especially if the others are saying she's out of order. Smile and nod, smile and nod, but carry on with what you are doing.

mrspremise Sun 15-Dec-13 19:19:30

It's half of whom, in any case... Have yet another biscuit, you Christian soul, you..

JodieGarberJacob Sun 15-Dec-13 19:19:32

Once my stockpile of Coty L'Aimant is gone I'm going to try horse linament. Apparently they smell similar.

redexpat Sun 15-Dec-13 19:19:48

Why is everyone questioning the christianity of the OP? What about the other female? It's not very Christian to be intolerant of children, although it would also be very Christian to forgive and accept the other woman and love her anyway. Moral of the story: we are all human, all make mistakes, and no one can act like a saint the whole time.

And FWIW it's very annoying being in a choir when the other singers aren't very good. So I'd be looking for a choral society rather than a church choir OP.

LadyBeagleEyes Sun 15-Dec-13 19:20:58

That'll be the other old bags who can't sing then Boffin? Op didn't just insult the one old bag, it was a generalisation.

PloddingDaily Sun 15-Dec-13 19:21:46

Oh dear...

Ok, re the ladies in the choir & their ability...I'm pretty sure the phrase is 'make a joyful noise unto the Lord' rather than tuneful...wink it might niggle those who are pitch perfect but those who aren't are no less entitled to praise God, & I'm sure he is more interested in the sentiment than the harmonies. smile

Re the older lady's comments re your child, I understand how stressful it can be trying to wrangle kids at church, & firmly believe we should follow Jesus' example & welcome kids...but as another pp said a good church will try & cater for the different approaches / needs of it's family members...but the oil that keeps the cogs turning is tolerance...which works both ways, so I can see how her reaction hurt you...but don't let that anger fester!

Try not to get side tracked by personality conflicts - ask God to help you see others as He does (their humanity, frailty, vulnerability) & with His love...& take this to him - if church is more than a sunday activity for you, pray about this. Human relationships are darn tricky, noone's perfect...

As for everyone saying what hypocrites Christians are...well, yes, some of us are...possibly all most at some point or other? blush We are, after all, human, with all the annoying habits & baggage we had before becoming Christians, it's just that we have a faith & are on a journey with it...all at different points, some more saintly than others, none perfect. wink. My big issues include swearing like a trooper still language, patience etc...I'm very much wip, but I do not (try not to!!) judge others...just plodding along my own path...

Right, shutting up & off soapbox now! fgrin

monicalewinski Sun 15-Dec-13 19:27:06

YANBU.

You are absolutely in the right - old people should not be allowed to public places if they cannot be indulgent around spirited children.

Choirs (imo) should no longer be welcoming to the tone deaf - Gareth Malone has done a lot for choirs in this country and your old bag and her cronies are disrespecting him.

I do hope that you will speak to the vicar re an obviously overdue cull of his flock, to allow young churchgoers such as yourself the freedom to let children run wild and express their personalities. Just because these unreasonable old bags have probably been a part of that congregation for a very long time, it does not trump your right as a newcomer to dictate proceedings exactly on your terms.

It is your basic human right, and I suggest you inform the local paper, too.

HTH

drudgetrudy Sun 15-Dec-13 19:28:58

She was intolerant- but "fucking old bag" how Christian and forgiving. Why have you joined a church?

Lilacroses Sun 15-Dec-13 19:29:51

I agree with thebody as usual. Lovely Christian values displayed by you both Op. What did you expect MN to sa

VerySmallSqueak Sun 15-Dec-13 19:30:19

I do hope that you will speak to the vicar re an obviously overdue cull of his flock

Is it wrong of me to be chuckling so much at this? grin

NotMissMiranda Sun 15-Dec-13 19:30:48

At what age do you become an old bag?

florascotia Sun 15-Dec-13 19:30:55

I don't give a damn about church choirs and am prepared to understand that parents of young children might be vastly more indulgent than others when it comes to infantile behaviour. But, while devotion to any faith - which is what the 'old bag's' original complaint was presumably, if poorly-expressed, about - should surely be respected, should we not also be tolerant about very young peoples' excitement or delight??
What I find really, really, really offensive in this thread is the attitude in later posts towards older people. For God's sake, not everyone over 60 is incapable or only suitable to be the subject of some facile TV commercial. As an earlier poster has said, we will all be old some day ...

thebody Sun 15-Dec-13 19:31:45

boff it was the phrase 'one of the old bags' that made me squirm.

monicaLewinski grin

VerySmallSqueak Sun 15-Dec-13 19:32:34

When you first buy 'Woman's Weekly' Not.

JodieGarberJacob Sun 15-Dec-13 19:37:54

And also it's more of an attitude. Some of my friends collect their pension and then go and get their nails done whereas I get the bus to bingo and spend the evening complaining about people talking over the caller.

IamInvisible Sun 15-Dec-13 19:48:14

I must be an old baghmm as well then because I hate it when DC run around in churches, restaurants, cafes, cinemas, school nativity plays etc.

There is a time and a place for everything and this, imo, ain't one them!

SatinSandals Sun 15-Dec-13 19:50:36

I was hoping that this was a thread about how awful it is to refer to older women as "old bags", but apparently not

I find the ageism on MN quite shocking-it seems to be fair game.
I leafed through the MN book, I can't remember the name of it, but it had a chapter called 'old biddies on the bus'!! I was shocked that it actually comes from the top and is acceptable.

SatinSandals Sun 15-Dec-13 19:50:59

Sorry-thought acceptable.

overthebliddyhill Sun 15-Dec-13 19:59:25

We have a f*****g old bag like this in our church. She is old. She is lonely. She has a painful condition herself. She doesn't look for sympathy. We love her.

Oh man now I want a chair drone Salm!

::ignores most of the thread that isn't about me::

We will all be old one day.

coraltoes Sun 15-Dec-13 20:07:20

How very Christian of you. You clearly learn a lot at church.

CanIMakeItToChristmas Sun 15-Dec-13 20:13:12

Christmas is a season of goodwill ... fhmm

Or as a Christian - Matthew 5:43-48

CanIMakeItToChristmas Sun 15-Dec-13 20:16:24

Or Romans 12:17-19, Proverbs 15:1, Proverbs 16:7 ...
Luke 23:34, ... I could go on?

HeffalumpTheFlump Sun 15-Dec-13 20:16:32

Your church does sound a bit stuffy, but obviously that's not a nice way to speak about anyone. I hope you were just venting. My church became a bit like this, but they have sorted it out as their congregation was dwindling. Now there are far more family friendly services called messy church. Kids can run around and make as much noise as they want. The members of the congregation who do not enjoy a livelier service like that can go to the earlier one which is much more old fashioned. It's working really well and there are far more families attending each week.

Is there anything like that near you?

BakeOLiteGirl Sun 15-Dec-13 20:17:05

I tried taking my child to church a few times when he was 2/3 years old. Cannot for the life of me remember why.

It was really good though because everyone was really tolerant and kind. There was an area at the back with books and toys for restless children to spend time.

Because it was a family service no one minded young children running around while parents listened. It's just impossible to keep some children sitting still. But because it was a family service and the vicar was lovely it was just wonderful chaos that was great fun.

Find another church.

candycoatedwaterdrops Sun 15-Dec-13 20:17:36

I love it when people post nasty stuff, wanting to goad other posters into agreeing that their MIL/friend etc is a cunt and then, they come back to see everyone says YABU and wail "all I wanted was support". What a pile of wank. grin

garlicbaubles Sun 15-Dec-13 20:28:11

I went to choir practice recently. I must say I love it - it's one of the very few opportunities I get to socialise with friends my own age, the old lungs get a workout and I quite fancy the verger wink

We always welcome new people to our group, especially young mums as most of us remember how having a small child can make you crave adult company! They're usually lovely, as are their DC. But, my word, our latest new member is making us rethink! She sang very loudly, as if it was a competition, could NOT keep time despite the keyboard player resorting to his drum pedal, and kept glaring round at everyone. She seemed to think she was on Congregation X-Factor, and dressed for it, too. Call us cheeky, but we changed the first line of the carol to "While Slebster flashed her norks by night" grin She didn't notice, she was too busy drowning us out.

So obsessed was she by her celebrity delusions, she paid no attention to her child, who resorted to haring up and down the aisle, then tried to get SlebMum's attention by yelling "BOOTIFUL MUMMY" every time she reached the choir. I guess the silly tart doesn't need telling she's "bootiful" as her only response was to sneer at the rest of us. Again.

None of us want our weekly gatherings spoiled by Thunder Child and her daft bint of a mother. We normally welcome younger members, as I said, but this uppity cow's more than we can bear. Would we be unreasonable to announce the choir is for over-40s only?

CanIMakeItToChristmas Sun 15-Dec-13 20:31:02

fgrin garlicbaubles

garlicbaubles Sun 15-Dec-13 20:33:37

fwink

Nanny0gg Sun 15-Dec-13 20:36:40

garlicbaubles

Loved it! Especially:

None of us want our weekly gatherings spoiled by Thunder Child and her daft bint of a mother
and
"While Slebster flashed her norks by night"

fgrin

monicalewinski Sun 15-Dec-13 20:42:48

garlicbaubles

fgrin

garlicbaubles Sun 15-Dec-13 20:51:27

You were my choral inspiration, monica <bows>

fgrin

AntlersInAllOfMyDecorating Sun 15-Dec-13 20:55:26

Really fucking Christian of you.

Is it me?

Yes.

Golddigger Sun 15-Dec-13 21:02:21

An advert for saga has appeared on the top of my screen smile

CanIMakeItToChristmas Sun 15-Dec-13 21:08:22

It's Peppa Pig at the top of mine Golddigger. Not sure what that says about me ...

JodieGarberJacob Sun 15-Dec-13 21:11:45

Thank goodness for garlic telling us the old bag side of the argument! I can now get into my winceyette and soak my teeth.

custardo Sun 15-Dec-13 21:16:34

OP - you don't need to be in a clique ( or quiche as it's known) smile to post.

anyway i want to say - she sounds like a rotton mean spirited person

but then, i do have to say, the most mean spirited people i usually meet in church funnily enough.

rant away all you like - but if you want to just moan - dont put it in AIBU, becuase the chances are, people will tell you that you are!

UptheChimney Sun 15-Dec-13 21:22:48

Yes I am good natured, I guess I'm not in the clique

The one thing you can count on is that you'll be a "f***** old bag" one day.

candycoatedwaterdrops Sun 15-Dec-13 21:26:20

I'm already a fucking old bag and I'm only 25!

harticus Sun 15-Dec-13 21:31:35

I'm really pissed off at her

You might need to work on that forgiveness and tolerance stuff OP.

Took DS to the nativity knees up at the village Methodist chapel tonight - excellent fun - kids running amok, loads of caterwauling of carols and everyone slightly pissed on mulled wine.

You need to shop around and find something less tight-arsed.

NewtRipley Sun 15-Dec-13 21:33:40

This was only one person. You are pretty lucky, IMo if there's only one annoying person in any one place.

Beastofburden Sun 15-Dec-13 21:37:21

So thats what a quiche is on MN. I did wonder.

Speaking as a fucking old bag myself, I don't think you can get snarky about church choirs. Some aim for a high musical standard, but many are community choirs, doing their best but including all who want to contribute. Best sing for a choir that auditions, if you want to make comments on standards.

ImaginativeNewName Sun 15-Dec-13 21:52:09

Yanbu. The old bag description sounds fitting in this case... grin

throwingstones Sun 15-Dec-13 22:03:36

To be fair to the old bag a church isn't really a place for children, you should wait until your child is old enough to decide for themselves if they want to spend an hour a week praying to somebody that doesn't exist.

DejaVuAllOverAgain Sun 15-Dec-13 22:03:50

garlicbaubles

fgrin

startwig1982 Sun 15-Dec-13 22:09:08

I take DS to church an everyone is very tolerant of him as they remember what it's like to have a demanding 2 yo. Plus I take food and toys and have even been known to resort to giving him my phone to play with.
I wouldn't, however, take him to orchestra, where people go for a bit of fun and want to learn/concentrate. I wouldn't take him somewhere where I couldn't supervise him so he didn't annoy people.
Maybe you need to rethink taking your dd and try being -- nicer-- more patient.

BrianTheMole Sun 15-Dec-13 22:10:36

Well, I would agree with you op, but the fact that you are calling her a fucking old bag makes me wonder if your bad attitude is really apparent at church. And thats why she doesn't like you. But I'm old as well, so I probably would side with the fucking old bag as I'm probably one myself smile. Fucking old bags unite!

VerySmallSqueak Sun 15-Dec-13 22:22:09

The more I think about it,I fucking love being a fucking old bag.

But I still think that the mardy arse who thinks kids should be seen and not heard is a fucking horrible old bag.

There's a big difference.Well,there is to me after wine wine.

drudgetrudy Sun 15-Dec-13 22:25:54

Think OP is really out of order and offended on behalf of my fellow fucking old bags but can't stop laughing at usualsuspect. Lol is the only phrase for it!

CanIMakeItToChristmas Sun 15-Dec-13 22:26:52

Do you remember the Grumpy Old Women programmes? I'm definitely one! I think Old Bag fits well into that. I'm sad Fifty Shades of Beige isn't coming near me.

garlicbaubles Sun 15-Dec-13 22:50:58

Pumpkin:

Is it me?

Yes.

Raucous old-bag laffter over here fgrin

I've got an ad for £35 men's shirts! HOW does the ad server KNOW I need a shag and won't get one unless I bribe a bloke with "fashion shirts"?
<impressed>

I was hoping to get adverts for vintage Mulberry bags!

CanYouKeepASecret2 Sun 15-Dec-13 22:56:47

No I've got Pepa Pig too! And I'm WAY past that stage with my DC, not that they ever liked that sort of thing anyway.

VerySmallSqueak Sun 15-Dec-13 23:03:15

I've got a bank one.

Give me peppa any day.

Daddy pig makes me laugh.My bank balance definitely doesn't.

CanYouKeepASecret2 Sun 15-Dec-13 23:04:40

grin

ilovesooty Mon 16-Dec-13 00:45:27

The OP is 40. I'm wondering how old some of the self confessed "old bags" on this thread are. Probably younger than that! grin

BrianTheMole Mon 16-Dec-13 00:54:17

The OP is 40. I'm wondering how old some of the self confessed "old bags" on this thread are. Probably younger than that!

Oh, ermm, well I'm a bit older than that. But not much. Aren't you a bit of a fucking old bag yourself then op? grin

JollySantersSelectionBox Mon 16-Dec-13 01:03:26

Misogyny is rife in the bible. In the nativity everyone knows about the 3 Kings and copious visiting shepherds.

Not one mention of the old bag who brought a packet of Peak Freen Fig Rolls and came to tell the parents to stop that baby making an awful racket.

KittensoftPuppydog Mon 16-Dec-13 08:43:56

Garlic. My ad is for expensive handbags. I feel very bad about it. Very bad.

Beastofburden Mon 16-Dec-13 08:48:24

The life of Brian had it right. Mary as old bag was fabulous.

"Er, thanks for the gold and stuff. But next time, don't bother with the Myrrh, all right?"

Is it wrong to say that my two must-watch Christmas films are the Life of Brian and the Muppets Christmas Carol?

Beastofburden Mon 16-Dec-13 08:49:36

I've got the National Trust.

Why? Why? I am just as susceptible to expensive handbags. And now I am an old bag successful career woman I can even afford them.

<howls>

ilovesmurfs Mon 16-Dec-13 08:52:34

some people are funny about kids in churches and what they think.is acceptable behaviour.

not ok.to call her an.old bag, havent read the whole thread but i assume you have got a slating for that? tho maybe not on another thread 11yr old girls were refered to as bitches and vile gits and that seemed to be ok...

clarinetV2 Mon 16-Dec-13 09:05:45

Garlicbaubles grin grin

Beastofburden your Christmas films and mine are identical. Though I sometimes alternate Life of Brian with Meaning of Life. When my DC were little they used to love singing along with Every Sperm is Sacred. Makes me feel proper Christmassy just thinking about it! A number for the OP's choir to add to their repertoire maybe.

Beastofburden Mon 16-Dec-13 09:42:54

LOL at massed choirs of old bags singing every sperm is sacred.

A MN meet- up, perhaps? grin

Meant to say I loooooved garlicbaubles post.

alemci Mon 16-Dec-13 09:56:57

I think you have to take no notice. There are always 'old bags' in every walk of life. Perhaps she wants to yield a bit of power.

DC should be at church and it needs young people to come in. Is your dd the only dc there at the choir practice?

drudgetrudy Mon 16-Dec-13 10:37:17

Well I'm a proper 60+ old bag. What pissed me off is that you dismissed all the older women as "old bags" writing them all off. It wouldn't have been quite as bad if it was only the miserable one you were referring to - although still not particularly Christian and forgiving.

lilac26 Mon 16-Dec-13 12:17:41

...now I don't know whether I should bother going back

no, I don't think you should. Attending Church clearly isn't making you into much of a sunbeam is it?

Maybe you should give up Church and Religion completely - I do neither and am far nicer than you!

LEMoncehadacatcalledSANTA Mon 16-Dec-13 12:20:52

You don't sound very christian - are people to have auditions a la x factor now before they are allowed to sing in the choir?

JodieGarberJacob Mon 16-Dec-13 16:22:22

Wow! Peak Freens, a blast from the past! I haven't heard of them since the sixties. Are they still around?

LineRunner Mon 16-Dec-13 17:38:52

Wilkinson have £1 Christmas tubes of Parma violets.

You read it here first.

Thisisaghostlyeuphemism Mon 16-Dec-13 17:42:34

Wtf is this old bag business?

AdmiralData Mon 16-Dec-13 17:53:12

OP, you and the lady mentioned are both being tactless. Just do the kiss of peace and make up already ;)

Salmotrutta Mon 16-Dec-13 18:01:37

Having thought this through I've decided that I prefer Pan Drops to Werthers.

Salmotrutta Mon 16-Dec-13 18:04:20

Save Our Pan Drops!!

A Worthy Campaign

thebody Mon 16-Dec-13 18:05:01

garlicbaubles and lilac26 made me spit out my tea. grin

complexnumber Mon 16-Dec-13 18:15:31

I confess that I have not read every post on here.

But I am amused at the extent some posters are getting outraged by the use of a rather harmless expression 'old bag' and yet they are quite happy to accept (even celebrate) other expressions such as wankbadger or cunt.

I remember calling my mum an old bag when I was about 8, my dad fell about laughing and my mum had to pretend to be super outraged.

SunshinemMum Mon 16-Dec-13 18:20:44

Ignoring the title, it doesn't sound as if this Church is very welcoming of young children. Many have a children's corner, play mat with toys, groups and ours had a very family/child friendly approach. Maybe it isn't the right church for you?

Salmotrutta Mon 16-Dec-13 18:20:58

I think if I'd call my mum an old bag my dad would have gone absolutely ballistic.

It's a dismissive and casually nasty expression.

And I never use the two other examples of terminology you gave either complex.

Whereas my mother gets much more insulted by being called an old dear.

Isn't great how we're all so different?

Heartbrokenmum73 Mon 16-Dec-13 18:34:07

The reason 'old bag' is so offensive is because it's a derogatory, mysoginistic term, aimed solely at women, whereas wankbadger (and my favourite, cockwomble) are just silly insults and aren't really intended to be offensive - they get bandied about on here in general daftness, I've found.

How someone can be unable to see the difference between 'old bag' (which was clearly used maliciously by the OP) and 'wankbadger' is beyond me confused

I shan't comment on cunt grin

Heartbrokenmum73 Mon 16-Dec-13 18:34:49

And I can actually spell misogynistic (with the help of spell check)

oldgrandmama Mon 16-Dec-13 18:37:38

I'm a really REALLY f**** Old Bag. OP doesn't exactly sound full of Christmas Spirit (the nebulous, not the alcoholic, sort).
I've got pop-up ad. for Barclays.

TwistedRib Mon 16-Dec-13 18:46:22

OP has gone...

zeeboo Mon 16-Dec-13 18:48:43

I'm going to hoik my judgy pants high and say your thread title and subsequent post gives a clue to what kind of behaviour your child was exhibiting and it was probably far beyond 'kids being kids' and straying into 'brat'

YABU HTH

JollySantersSelectionBox Tue 17-Dec-13 02:52:31

Complex you don't need to read the whole thread just the ops post again.

She lumped all the women there as old bags. This was one of the old bags. Ringleader bag

ThatVikRinA22 Tue 17-Dec-13 03:03:34

maybe "some fucking old bag" is a compliment....like "that is some fucking old bag there that is".....

i live in hope. as a old bag.

echt Tue 17-Dec-13 06:07:45

Another old one checking into the bagging area.

Fecking cheek.

My sympathies are with the OP. My church contains a similar phalanx of old ladies. And yes, it is a horrid epithet, but in my private moments I have been known to mutter about the Monstrous Regiment of O-- B--s. The children at my church are in general a well-behaved lot, but these people do not tolerate any noise from children at all, even to the extent of suggesting that children don't come to church - even if that means their parents can't come either.

The problem is that in their day, children sat still in church or got the strap. Happily, society has moved on. And while their old age entitles them to respect, in my opinion they should not abuse that respect by (as at my church) hissing at the children, making passive-aggressive asides at parents, or stymying the children's programme on Vestry.

curlew Tue 17-Dec-13 06:25:16

"The problem is that in their day, children sat still in church or got the strap."

What, in the 1960s? hmm

ItsIgginningToLookALotLikeXmas Tue 17-Dec-13 06:43:58

Children were expected to sit in silence in church in the past. They were also largely expected to sit in silence in schools. Now they still need to behave appropriately in both settings, but that does not include acting as if they are invisible. I would never use the OB phrase but I certainly would be pissed off if someone tutted at my children, and it would stop me attending myself. And more churches close due to ageing populations and not enough families, so it just goes round and round.

oldbaghere Tue 17-Dec-13 06:51:18

Why is it wrong to expect children to sit and behave appropriately in a setting where it is socially normal to show respect?

Golddigger Tue 17-Dec-13 07:34:24

It isnt wrong oldbaghere.
But churches should be welcome and open to everyone.
Churches are there to help people along in their faith, and they cant help so much if people are not actually there.

Canthaveitall Tue 17-Dec-13 07:41:44

Maybe the 'old bag' was fed up of your 'brat' .

kungfupannda Tue 17-Dec-13 08:12:57

I'm not quite 40 yet, but would like to put myself forward for membership of the Old Bag Clique.

On the basis that I have such a massive and visible Werthers Orginals addiction (wrappers all over the car) that when I went into the garage with an unidentifiable warning light, they told me it was because I'd run out of Werthers. blush

ItsIgginningToLookALotLikeXmas Tue 17-Dec-13 17:57:01

In what way should my 18 month old behave to show "respect"? In what way was it disrespectful for a child to stand up to get a better view of a christingle service?

ItsIgginningToLookALotLikeXmas Tue 17-Dec-13 17:59:20

What I mean is, there is a big gap between running wild and shouting, and not sitting absolutely still in silence.

alemci Tue 17-Dec-13 18:17:16

In the church where I sometimes attend, they have an area for parents where they can listen to the service and dcs can move about and possibly play (can't remember) and it is slightly away from the main area. They also have a creche, playschool, groups etc for the dc. I used to love taking my dc there as it was so pleasant and no one was judgey if they dc got fidgety etc.

What about special needs dc.

Dc are part of church and the old lady needs to think about how Jesus viewed little children as he does refer to them in the gospel. He welcomed them.

NigellasDealer Tue 17-Dec-13 18:20:00

ah the joyous spirit of Christmas is clearly abounding among our church-going members, it brings a tear to my eye so it does...

VerySmallSqueak Tue 17-Dec-13 19:35:10

I'm so glad I don't go to church.
And the holier than thou attitude expressed by some churchgoers is a big reason.
(Well,that,and the fact I don't believe in God....)

They'd hate my kids.
And I suspect I would secretly revel in their disapproval.

<rebellious streak>

oldbaghere and others.

Of course children should behave appropriately in church. In my opinion, that makes allowance for the fact they are children. An activities table at the back, appropriately managed, should cause no affront to anyone - but I'm afraid that at my church, it does. Unfortunately, it is the old ladies who seem to mind - perhaps this is partly because the old gents have passed on, but my experience is that most of them are more likely to slip a noisy child a sweet and a kindly wink.

VerySmallSqueak

How these Christians love each other...

I'm afraid I entirely concur. The problem with churches is that they bring together people who have absolutely nothing in common but religious faith. It can make them fight like rats in a sack. Also, IME, Anglican churches seem particularly prone to harbour hoity-toity types who I sometimes imagine believe that children should not be allowed out unless wearing sailor suits (if boys) and pinafores (if girls).

timidviper Tue 17-Dec-13 21:29:42

curlew What? Seriously? Old bags were children in the 1960s? That would make old bags 43-53 years old. I would be quite offended at being called that if I was only in my early 40s. Surely it would have to be at least 10 years ahead of that.

I think this again comes down to mutual respect, just as most of the arguments on here do. It is unreasonable to expect little children to sit still and silent for any length of time but it is equally unreasonable to expect others to tolerate them loudly marauding.

The people I have in mind are more like 80, therefore children in the '30s. Many people of that age will be hard of hearing and affected by background noise. Churches ought to cater for that as a priority. Mine does, quite properly.

The real issue is not hearing problems but (a) not accepting that standards of acceptable behaviour have changed and (b) sitting in the same pew since 1955 even though it is next to he kids' area. Happily, at my church the new vicar's DW has set up an excellent children's programme. The way this excellent person has been treated by some of the old ladies in response makes me absolutely livid.

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