To wonder why people increasingly refer to places not in London as 'in London'

(519 Posts)
redpipe Sun 15-Dec-13 11:23:07

I genuinely don't understand why people say they live in London when in fact they live in a town within the M25.
Croydon is not in London is it? Nor is Kingston. I never remember people referring to these towns as London years ago. Is this a new thing?

ChippyMinton Sun 15-Dec-13 11:29:55

Why are you bothered?
and both those places are London boroughs hmm

hardboiledpossum Sun 15-Dec-13 11:30:12

I think of croydon and Kingston as London they both have 0208 numbers which I think of as outer London.

Do you consider Richmond London?

redpipe Sun 15-Dec-13 11:31:23

No hardboiledpossum I think of Richmond as in Surrey.

AngryFeet Sun 15-Dec-13 11:31:29

They are London boroughs. I live in croydon but never say I live in London though. Everything in the m25 is greater london.

WelshMaenad Sun 15-Dec-13 11:32:00

I'm from the Valleys. I consider everything east of the M4 Reading turnoff 'London'.

eurochick Sun 15-Dec-13 11:32:18

As others have said, they are London Boroughs. There is more to London than just the West End.

hardboiledpossum Sun 15-Dec-13 11:33:53

I always say London. I don't think of Richmond as surrey.

bamboostalks Sun 15-Dec-13 11:34:20

What about places that have a tube station? Some of those can be very far out, yet they're on the network. What about Cockfosters, Edgware? Amber sham cannot be London surely?

formerbabe Sun 15-Dec-13 11:34:38

Croydon is in London. It is a London Borough. It is just not central/inner London.

AnnBryce Sun 15-Dec-13 11:36:03

Sutton, Croydon, Kingston, Richmond - all London boroughs but I grew up in the 'Surrey' school of thought. It's just out of habit I guess.

Vatta Sun 15-Dec-13 11:37:11

If it's on the tube or has an 0208 number then I think it counts as London. Croydon, Richmond etc are all London.

sapfu Sun 15-Dec-13 11:37:13

Oh I'm with you redpipe.

I know someone in Richmond who insists she lives in London. It's in fucking SURREY. Which is a county. As is London (I think).

Just because you're on the tube network or use cockney rhyming slang or your local newsagent sell The Standard, it does not mean you live in London. It's geographical, innit.

lol at WelshMaenad

redpipe Sun 15-Dec-13 11:37:22

obviously there is more to London than the west end but surely Bromley is in Kent not in London and Croydon is in Surrey not London.

AmberLeaf Sun 15-Dec-13 11:37:25

A lot of 'croydon' is in Surrey, has a non london postcode, but is within the London borough of croydon.

It's not really London, it's only croydon because its in that borough IYSWIM?

Canthaveitall Sun 15-Dec-13 11:37:38

Some people refer to the place as being in surrey or kent etc if they go by the postcode. Others refer it as London if they go by the borough. Unless I lived in a London postcode I wouldn't describe it as London even if it were within a London borough. But I wouldn't care of someone else did.

AnnBryce Sun 15-Dec-13 11:37:46

Morden is at the end of the Northern Line, it's always been Morden in Surrey for me!

redpipe Sun 15-Dec-13 11:38:21


500internalerror Sun 15-Dec-13 11:38:41

If the postcode starts with N, S, E or W then it's London!

hardboiledpossum Sun 15-Dec-13 11:39:10

Ammersham isn't in a London borough though, it is bucks. Richmond is considered a London borough. Where do you live op?

redpipe Sun 15-Dec-13 11:39:48

But if you were addressing a letter to Croydon it would clearly say Surrey not Surrey/London wouldn't it grin

AmberLeaf Sun 15-Dec-13 11:40:34

Yes the postcode would be CRX XXX and it would be Surrey def not London

PMSL - my DH is from South East London and gets really annoyed at people who say they're from SE London like some badge of honour when they're actually from Croydon....or even worse BROMLEY!

I can hear him now "BROMLEY'S IN KENT!!!!"

He goes by postcodes as that's how a lot of Londoners (ones he knows anyway) tend to identify themselves. Croydon does not have a London (as in SW, SW, EC etc) postcode so according to him it's not in London grin

He will accede to "Greater London Borough" though.....just.

AnnBryce Sun 15-Dec-13 11:40:47

I'd say Richmond is as close to London out of all them though. I'd probably let her off.

AmberLeaf Sun 15-Dec-13 11:41:38

Mind you, Downham which is in Lewisham borough, has a BR postcode, Bromley it aint!

Canthaveitall Sun 15-Dec-13 11:41:57

I agree with you but I think some people go by the borough or just like the whole 'I live in London don't you know' thing.

AnnBryce Sun 15-Dec-13 11:42:02

I reckon f you've grown up in those areas it would be alien to say you live in London, you just don't. People would think you're a nob.

Obviously I meant "SE, SW, EC etc"

hardboiledpossum Sun 15-Dec-13 11:42:44

My postcode is tw, I still feel like I live in London. I definitely don't feel like I live in surrey.

Lovecat Sun 15-Dec-13 11:42:53

By postcode, I live in Essex. Geographically I'm about 300 yards from the North Circular, which is the boundary between us and East London. I tend to say East London to people I don't intend to have a lifelong friendship with, as saying Essex gives the impression I live miles out, whereas East London locates me more accurately.

When I lived on the Wirral I used to tell strangers Liverpool because back then people had never heard of the Wirral (which seems to have lost its 'The' these days). It's just easier.

I do think saying Croydon is London is a bit mental though. Like saying Romford is (it's in a Greater London borough so theoretically it is, but it really, really isn't...)

AnnBryce Sun 15-Dec-13 11:43:59

Yes! When did Bromley become an extension of Croydon?!?

I treat Croydon the same as Romford as well Lovecat

TheXxed Sun 15-Dec-13 11:44:58

I remember a girl at university saying she lived in '*greater Lindon*' I asked her where exactly as I also live in greater London (zone 3).

When she said Chelmsford I will admit I gave her a side eye look. There is nothing wrong with being from Essex. Dressing it up as something its not is weird.

Trills Sun 15-Dec-13 11:45:28

The problem here is the lack of distinction between "London the city" and "Greater London the area".

It's as if there were a town called "East Anglia" or a town called "Kent" - people would say they lived in them and you wouldn't know if they meant the city or the larger area.

lovelongwalks Sun 15-Dec-13 11:47:04

I have to take details of addresses at work. Many of these places come under Greater London

AnnBryce Sun 15-Dec-13 11:47:25

Then again you do get a nice red bus in Sutton, Croydon etc, perhaps they're right after all!

hardboiledpossum Sun 15-Dec-13 11:47:56

Ann I'm pretty certain all of my neighbours would tell you they live in London, not surrey.

AnnBryce Sun 15-Dec-13 11:48:40

They may come under Greater London but it's generally accepted that you say you're in Surrey. It's a local thing only locals really know.

neunundneunzigluftballons Sun 15-Dec-13 11:48:59

We don't get too much of this in Ireland because it is the opposite, daring to suggest someone from Meath is from Dublin even though it is the next parish over is the equivalent of walking up to them with a dead fish and slapping them in the face. Our county lines never change either. You need to get yourselves an equivalent of the GAA it would solve the problem. :-).

redpipe Sun 15-Dec-13 11:49:23

What I find odd is it's only certain places in the Kent, surrey areas (which are also part of a London Borough) where people say they live in London.
I have never heard someone from Petts wood or Orpington state anything other than they live in Kent.

TidyDancer Sun 15-Dec-13 11:49:40

I can think if a couple of examples that annoy me. The Harry Potter experience is in Watford. Which is in Hertfordshire. Not in London. And Stansted and Luton airports are also not in London.

When were talking about boroughs, it does get a bit foggy I think. I understand people getting confused but to deliberately say you live in London when you know you don't is a bit wanky isn't it?

ComposHat Sun 15-Dec-13 11:50:01

As far as I am concerned anyone inside the M25 is a cockney.

There are only three types of southerners: i)cockney (inside M25) ii)posh sods('home' counties) and straw chewing inbred yokels(south west)

AnnBryce Sun 15-Dec-13 11:50:04

Sorry x post - tw is like Richmond, pretty close in I'd say. I'm talking about Sutton, Croydon, Morden.

TidyDancer Sun 15-Dec-13 11:50:09

think of not if

VivaLeBeaver Sun 15-Dec-13 11:50:54

As a northerner I'd have thought both Richmond and probably Croydon were in London. I've been to both, Richmond on the tube! I admit Croydon is maybe pushing it as I had to go on the train from kings x
But it was only 20mins from there.

whereiseveryone Sun 15-Dec-13 11:51:04

I've got a friend who does this.

She can't help it though cos she's from oop north (and not quite with the program). I just nod and agree now.

AnnBryce Sun 15-Dec-13 11:51:48

And LGW, London Gatwick is nearer to Brighton in Sussex!

VivaLeBeaver Sun 15-Dec-13 11:52:31

And I haven't heard of places like Sutton or lewisham so if someone to,d me they lived there I wouldn't have a clue. Could be on the outskirts of Liverpool for all I know so London is probably more helpful.

redpipe Sun 15-Dec-13 11:53:16

But airports use the term 'London' as in serving London not in London.

Croydon, Kingston Bromley and lots of other places that used to be towns just outside London became part of London Boroughs (so part of London) in 1965 when London was extended. Apart from a couple of towns that transferred back, the areas ceased to be part of the counties they used to be in. Some people consider themselves as still living in a county outside London, but in terms of local government, voting for the London mayor etc they are part of London.

AnnBryce Sun 15-Dec-13 11:54:13

Explaining to someone without a clue is understandable, saying you're from there all the time is not.

redpipe Sun 15-Dec-13 11:54:45

Vivalebeaver they could always say the county they actually live in rather than one they don't though. grin

WhatAPallava Sun 15-Dec-13 11:55:16

I go by postcode....

AGnuMasqueradingAsAReindeer Sun 15-Dec-13 11:56:00

I'm with Maenad on this one - I'm from just outside the valleys originally... but I suspect a "Londoner" with limited knowledge of South Wales would think I was either from "The Valleys" or Cardiff.

DH is from Kingston-upon-Thames, DM is from Selsdon. They're both v hmm that I consider both these places to be "in London". DAunt now lives in Billericay. This is "just outside London" in my mind - it must be, because we used to go stay with them if we wanted to do a day trip into London-proper to go sight-seeing.

TSSDNCOP Sun 15-Dec-13 11:56:16

Bromley etc are only in Kent when one is trying to flog ones semi.

redpipe Sun 15-Dec-13 11:56:47

In light of the shortage of housing and more and more people being pushed out of London I wonder if London will be extended again. Maybe in a few years everyone south of Manchester could be part of London?

hercules1 Sun 15-Dec-13 11:56:52

Sleepingdragon is right. Croydon is part of london.

How can a 'London Borough' not be 'in London'?
That makes no sense to me
(as a northerner who lives in County Durham, but not in Durham grin)

AnnBryce Sun 15-Dec-13 11:57:53

Because they are in Surrey.

redpipe Sun 15-Dec-13 11:58:19

stealthPolarbear when it's in surrey?

AnnBryce Sun 15-Dec-13 11:58:24

No tube to Croydon, isn't that odd.

AmberLeaf Sun 15-Dec-13 11:58:55

As far as I am concerned anyone inside the M25 is a cockney

You'd be wrong then!

A cockney is someone born 'within the sound of the Bow bells' Bow which is in east London.

Never insult a SE Londonder by calling them a cockney grin

deepfriedsage Sun 15-Dec-13 11:59:13

Middlesex doesn't exist any more, as the London boroughs allowed to be London boroughs? They are not all N, S, E, W postcodes.

redpipe Sun 15-Dec-13 11:59:22

They have trams too! wink

Bromley isn't that near Croydon is it? <<searches SE knowledge>>

AnnBryce Sun 15-Dec-13 12:00:05

Have they done the Whitgift Centre up in Croydon yet?

littleducks Sun 15-Dec-13 12:00:09

I sometimes say London, particularly if I don't think the person I'm speaking to will know where I mean if I say the local town names. I'm within the M25, tube zone 5, London Borough etc. but not a London postcode.......but no Kent/Surrey in address either just 'Middlesex'

AnnBryce Sun 15-Dec-13 12:02:13

Is Northolt London now? It was Middlesex when I lived there (contradicts self!)

AmberLeaf - agreed...DH is NOT a cockney grin

Even though he sounds like one and uses rhyming slang all the time. Although SE slang is different to true cockney.

My Granddad was a proper cockney.

Eastwickwitch Sun 15-Dec-13 12:03:45

When I lived in London anywhere outside Zone 3 was not London.
Now I live miles away, anywhere within the M25 is London. Odd thinking really.

AnnBryce Sun 15-Dec-13 12:03:51

Some Surrey villages are turning into London Boroughs now, at least that's how it feels, I think it's sad. Even the accents are changing.

Well yes I get that. But how can a London Borough overlap a county. In fact that's fairly important in my work - I do actually need to know. We present information for the LB of Croydon and for Surrey - are you telling me there's an overlap?

redpipe Sun 15-Dec-13 12:03:59

I can see it now London expanding to Watford to the North and Romford to the East including Guildford and Maidstone.

Or maybe we don't include Croydon...will check

happytalk13 Sun 15-Dec-13 12:04:51

I'm from North of the Watford Gap - if it's got a tube station, it's London grin

ChippyMinton Sun 15-Dec-13 12:04:56

Middlesex exists as a postal address. For places in Surrey county and some London boroughs.

redpipe Sun 15-Dec-13 12:05:25

happytalk13 grin

OK if you look at administrative geography on ONS it has counties, unitary authorities and London Boroughs covering the entire country and all without overlap. It has both Croydon LB and Surrey as a county. So either there is an overlap, or the 'Surrey' that ONS talks about is the 'Surrey' the rest of you are talking about minus the bit that is Croydon LB.
I'm quite worried about this...

AmberLeaf Sun 15-Dec-13 12:07:02

Scarlet some of croydon borders the borough of Bromley.

And when you look at 'London' as a Government Office Region (no longer exist but replaced by 4 regions, of which London is one) Croydon and Bromley are both in there.

yummymumtobe Sun 15-Dec-13 12:08:11

Tw isn't london. Why would you say you live in London when you don't? Tw is middlesex. And Kingston is Surrey. This is a source of regret for us as we live in London (Sw) but our ds was born in Kingston hospital so e was born in Surrey, not London. Why would you lie about living in London if you don't?! I don't claim to live in Surrey when I don't!

AmberLeaf Sun 15-Dec-13 12:08:19

Well it borders the London borough of Bromley, not necessarily Bromley 'proper'

TwoMinutesToMidnight Sun 15-Dec-13 12:08:28

Bromley is in Kent. Richmond is in Surrey. Op yanbu.

London - includes Croydon

DownstairsMixUp Sun 15-Dec-13 12:09:28

Where is the magic line though?! I lived im Barking which was a london borough zone 4 met police 0208 rm post code but the next stop to me was east ham suddenly zone 3 and postcode changed to E.

FetaCheeny Sun 15-Dec-13 12:09:31

There is no overlap. Richmond, Bromley, Croydon etc are part of London. They haven't been part of Kent/Surrey since 1965. Some people struggle with change though.

ChippyMinton Sun 15-Dec-13 12:10:00

Stealth- postal addresses might be Middlesex or Surrey but are different from the local govt boundaries ie who you pay council tax to.
tis all snobbery or inverted snobbery anyway.

hardboiledpossum Sun 15-Dec-13 12:10:03

Watford is not London!

Spartak Sun 15-Dec-13 12:10:16

Richmond isn't in Surrey any more. Its a borough in its own right. So is Kingston, even though the HQ for Surrey County Council is there, it was too expensive to move it.

Kingston and Richmond are authorities in their own right and are not in the county of Surrey. they are in the south east region.

littleducks Sun 15-Dec-13 12:11:04

I have just checked my address on the PO address finder and the correct form is a 3 line address:

House no, street name
local small town
postcode (not a london postcode)

But Middx still seems to be used, in fact I use it myself when address forms have an asterix next to County as I don't know what else to put.

Chippy, so do you mean that the 'Surrey' as we (and ONS) define it does not include Croydon?
If so that is a huge relief.
Actually thinking about it I can check for myself - see which county districts are listed for SUrrey.

hercules1 Sun 15-Dec-13 12:12:10

Parts if croydon used to come under surrey until 1965. Croydon is part of london.

AGnuMasqueradingAsAReindeer Sun 15-Dec-13 12:12:19

I had no idea Orpington was with the M25... We have distant relatives there & it's not "in London" in my mind, despite apparently being a similar distance as Selsdon/KuT. My brain classes Orpington as "like Sevenoaks" or "near Tonbridge Wells" because my Dad's relatives live in the area between Orpington & Tonbridge Wells. It's definitely nowhere near my Mum's Selsdon side of the family though... confused hmm

I think I might need someone to buy me a map for Christmas! blush

AmberLeaf Sun 15-Dec-13 12:13:07

Someone mentioned calling the area you live in something when you are trying to sell it.

If you are trying to sell your house that's in the borough of croydon, you'd big up the Surrey part of your address. If you are trying to prove your 'cool' crudentials, you say you live in London.

ChippyMinton Sun 15-Dec-13 12:13:34

Yummymumtobe why would that be a source of regret, especially as it is not Surrey anyway.

TSSDNCOP Sun 15-Dec-13 12:15:43

If I was London I'd think of Croydon as that pesky unwanted relative that just doesn't know when it's time to leave, despite repeated hints.

Bromley is the geographical equivalent of Hyacinth Bucket.

redpipe Sun 15-Dec-13 12:16:38

Really Kingston is no longer in Surrey?

The Bentall Centre, Wood St, Kingston upon Thames, Surrey KT1 1TR
Richmond Theatre The Green, Richmond, Surrey TW9 1QJ

ChippyMinton Sun 15-Dec-13 12:16:46

Stealth, don't panic you haven't uncovered a great conspiracy!

thanks TSS that's really helpful grin

AmberLeaf Sun 15-Dec-13 12:16:52

Coulsdon is part of the London borough of Croydon.

No one would call it 'coulsdon, London' though, they call it 'Coulsdon, Surrey'

Its postal address is still Surrey.

Wait, Bromley isn't in London? confused
That's where I'm from, and my mum always said it was part of London. And she'd know, she's from Peckham grin

A quick google later, Wikipedia says Bromley is a London Borough, so there.
I cling to my London roots, they're all I've got!

I'm just worried we're double counting!

sapfu Sun 15-Dec-13 12:17:26

Geographically, Richmond is in Surrey, though its local government calls itself a london borough. Local councils and geography are two different things, aren't they? Is this thread about geography or politics? confused

CremeEggThief Sun 15-Dec-13 12:17:33

Aren't all of these places within Greater London?
So I can understand why people who live outside the M25 just call them London. I wouldn't say to anyone who didn't know London that I was visiting my aunt in Croydon, for example. It's much easier just to say London.

redpipe Sun 15-Dec-13 12:18:21


JodieGarberJacob Sun 15-Dec-13 12:18:43

The Bow Bells are not in Bow but in Cheapside in the City of London. Just thought I'd mention it.

Meerkatwhiskers Sun 15-Dec-13 12:18:57

Actually annbryce Gatwick is exactly halfway between London and Brighton. Not nearer to either. I live right by it. And don't understand why it's called London Gatwick when it's a 35 min train journey from London!

I wouldn't call Croydon, Epsom, Banstead, Bromley, caterham London but further in I would. My family are from Brockley which is SE1 and east ham (although nan was born in east ham she grew up in dagenham so is an Essex girl lol).

Although saying that they are all under the Met not Surrey police....! Lol.

AmberLeaf Sun 15-Dec-13 12:19:29

Geographically, Richmond is in Surrey, though its local government calls itself a london borough. Local councils and geography are two different things, aren't they? Is this thread about geography or politics?

Good point.

For me it's about geography. Thus Croydon is Surrey and will never truely be London!

Killinascullion Sun 15-Dec-13 12:19:29

Why would anyone want to say they live in London when they can reasonably choose a County outside London? Much naicer surely?

I (and probably many other Northerners ) just think
London = KnobEnders = Yuck

(Don't like Corrie or Emmerdale Farm either while we're at it.)

However, I do have two grown up DC's who live in London (Stratford and Peckham). Handy for shopping trips. ;-)

GoldiChops Sun 15-Dec-13 12:20:28

I live in TW.

I pay council tax to LBRUT- London borough of Richmond.

I ca walk 20 mins and be on a London tube.

In a drop down list on most websites when I'm inputting my address, it's 50/50 whether my option is Middlesex or London/ greater London.

If anyone where I'm from, Cornwall, asks where I live, I say either twickenham or Richmond (depending how sporty they are, if they know where I mean!) in greater London. Richmond, or surrey, or Middlesex, means bugger all to most people I know so London clears it up.

It's a grey area, but I've never had anyone get riled about whether I say London or Middlesex! I'm literally right at the edge of Middx, few streets over is surrey, does anyone care?

Council tax goes to a London borough. Hence London.

hercules1 Sun 15-Dec-13 12:20:57
redpipe Sun 15-Dec-13 12:21:04


The feelings mutual

AmberLeaf Sun 15-Dec-13 12:21:32

JodieGarberJacob Thank you, but the point was, it doesn't apply to SE Londoners grin

My family are from Brockley which is SE1

Brockley is SE4 and quite a way away from SE1.

HotelTangoFoxtrotUniform Sun 15-Dec-13 12:21:58

A cockney is someone born 'within the sound of the Bow bells' Bow which is in east London

Bow Bells aren't in Bow church, East London (which was an outlying village at the time cockneys were considered born in the sound of Bow Bells). They're at St Mary le Bow on Cheapside.

At one point I worked in Hampshire. While I worked there I started off living in Surrey and then moved to Berkshire
<pointless addition>

AmberLeaf Sun 15-Dec-13 12:23:05

^I (and probably many other Northerners ) just think
London = KnobEnders = Yuck^

Don't like Corrie or Emmerdale Farm either while we're at it

Ah, does that mean you base your opinion on Eastenders?

redpipe Sun 15-Dec-13 12:23:17

stealth grin

AmberLeaf Sun 15-Dec-13 12:23:40

HotelTangoFoxtrotUniform That's been covered already!

I think killin was just talking about Eastenders, not being insulting to a large group of people. I hope.

Spartak Sun 15-Dec-13 12:24:09

What's postcode got to do with it? I've got relatives that live in Ilfracombe, which has got an EX postcode for Exeter. That's 50 miles away. Surely postcodes are just for helping Royal Mail deliver the mail, not a determining factor of location.

AmberLeaf Sun 15-Dec-13 12:25:59

Even the local paper says coulsdon is london

Yes, so do the maps.

Point is, geographically it is the least London a place could be, it is still called Surrey.

hercules1 Sun 15-Dec-13 12:27:27

I can't find any map that shows croydon as being in surrey.

hercules1 Sun 15-Dec-13 12:28:35

Crossed posts. Who calls it surrey?

DownstairsMixUp Sun 15-Dec-13 12:29:24

Barking is still seen as essex to loads of people but I always felt like I was in London living there being near the tube, so close to central london, even living in dagenham canary wharf was clear as day from our house and I still remember my whole street out their house in 1996 with the bombings! It's weird though how Romford is seen as london now though to and to me as a child, I always felt like I was stepping into Essex when I went there! grin I reckon I can call myself a bit of both (essex girl and london girl and proud!)

hercules1 Sun 15-Dec-13 12:29:49

Surely your thread should be expressing annoyance at people insisting croydon is part of surrey! It isn't surrey politically or geographically.

AmberLeaf Sun 15-Dec-13 12:29:51

Everyone who lives there.

The post office.

[refering to coulsdon]

Well and Barking & Dagenham is again a London Borough

Thanks everyone, this thread has been very educational smile

hercules1 Sun 15-Dec-13 12:31:30

I've lived and worked in croydon for over 20 years and never heard anyone refer to croydon as being in surrey.....

Lj8893 Sun 15-Dec-13 12:32:40

I went to uni with a girl who always said she was from london. We went on a uni theatre trip to see blood brothers and she didn't know her way around the west end, and everyone had been relying on her leading the way around (as she had been going on and on about aww I'm home etc)

Turned out she was from Croydon.

DownstairsMixUp Sun 15-Dec-13 12:32:54

DP was born in Carshalton, I always thought surrey, have learned that is also a london borough to!

AmberLeaf Sun 15-Dec-13 12:33:13

You said coulsdon and linked to an article about coulsdon, We were talking about coulsdon.

Where in croydon do you work, town centre?

Killinascullion Sun 15-Dec-13 12:33:37

Amberleaf Yes, anyone with a vaguely London accent sounds like a cast member from Eastenders to me.
My DB lived in Kent for a while and that was scary!

AmberLeaf Sun 15-Dec-13 12:34:45

Lj8893 and she didn't know her way around the west end

I think you'd find that many Londoners wouldn't know their way around the west end!

hercules1 Sun 15-Dec-13 12:37:58

Amber leaf, I can't change geography or history. I couldn't care less if some people like to refer to croydon as surrey but it doesn't make it correct! Happy to be proven wrong but need to see the evidence.

hercules1 Sun 15-Dec-13 12:38:56

Not sure of the relevancy of where in croydon I work.

hardboiledpossum Sun 15-Dec-13 12:39:44

I grew up in zone 2 and don't know my way around the west end.

EBearhug Sun 15-Dec-13 12:42:04

If you're from outside London, and never lived there, then I think anywhere within the M25 or on a tube line counts as "in London". If you actually live or work in London, then the distinction is more relevant, but for a lot of people, it isn't.

tiggytape Sun 15-Dec-13 12:42:11

Croydon is definitely London but living there wouldn't qualify you to give guided tours of the West End anymore than living in Scotland means you'd know your way around Glasgow city centre.

I suppose some people living outside London assume anyone who says they live in London then they must be in an apartment opposite Harrods or squeezed next-door to a flagship store on Oxford Street. In truth London is vast and Greater London covers all the areas mentioned (Croydon, Kingston etc) in government terms but also transport links and local identity. If you live in one of the London boroughs then you live in London. Not central London obviously but London all the same.

FredFredGeorge Sun 15-Dec-13 12:44:02

I like the Athletics description "Ancient and Geographical County of Surrey" for the bits which include the places now in London.

Southwark is in Surrey - can I not say London if I move there either?

AmberLeaf Sun 15-Dec-13 12:46:28

Why do you now keep saying croydon, when you first mentioned cousldon and that was what I responded to?

Coulsdon is still called surrey, it is part of london borough of croydon and outer london on the map, but any postal address in coulsdon will say Surrey, not London.

Not sure of the relevancy of where in croydon I work

I asked because I want to meet you for lunch on monday...

Obviously I am asking so as to determine what you are basing your croydon knowledge on, if you work in the the town centre, I can see why you wouldn't even consider Surrey in this. I you work in Purley or Coulsdon, Im sure you'd get my point.

redpipe Sun 15-Dec-13 12:46:32

Croydon is definitely London but living there wouldn't qualify you to give guided tours of the West End anymore than living in Scotland means you'd know your way around Glasgow city centre.

Your analogy is faulty! Scotland is a country Glasgow is a city. London is a city not a country.

tiggytape Sun 15-Dec-13 12:48:23

For the Olympics, London was defined as all of the London boroughs.
There was a free ticket allocation you could enter if you were a London resident - defined as anyone living in any one of the London Boroughs. So people in Richmond and Kingston would have been allocated free tickets based on their London credentials. Which is fair really as people in those boroughs also pay an extra charge for the London mayor and other London-based things

redpipe Sun 15-Dec-13 12:48:38

Southwark is not in Surrey!

hercules1 Sun 15-Dec-13 12:51:10

Amberleaf, croydon isn't that large. I thought that by stating I've lived here for over 20 years it would be obvious I know it quite well rather than just the particular area I currently work in. I've lived and worked in different parts of the borough and have family and friends across the borough. My first post on this thread was about croydon, my link about coulsdon was in response to a post about couldson being in surrey. I would rather not be any more specific about where I live or work. smile

AmberLeaf Sun 15-Dec-13 12:51:39

Southwark isn't in Surrey, hasn't been since the 1880s?

I don't think anyone would argue with southwark being London!

redshifter Sun 15-Dec-13 12:54:00

A lot of the London Borough of Richmond is in Middlesex not Surrey (think Twickenham and some parts of Hounslow). Their 20 TW postcodes, only 3 are in Surrey, the rest in Middlesex. Postcodes were devised and allocated by the post office for the needs of the post office only, geographical and political boundaries were not taken into account.

Surrey = south of the river

Middlesex = north of the river

South of the river was always surrey and north always middx., so westminster was in middx. And waterloo was in Surrey.

The Oval the home of Surrey County cricket club is in Kenington SE11, a few minutes walk from Vauxhall bridge.

Lords, the home of Middlesex cricket club is in St. Johns Wood, NW8

tiggytape Sun 15-Dec-13 12:56:15

Your analogy is faulty! Scotland is a country Glasgow is a city. London is a city not a country.

No but London is an administrative area in its own right as well as a city. Each of the 33 boroughs have as many people living in them as an average city anywhere else in England. All government functions and decisions about people living in Croydon (and Kingston etc) come via London not via Surrey County Council which is totally different and doesn't govern many of the places that have Surrey in their full address. If you live in Kingston or Croydon your waste, highways, taxes, libraries etc all come under London. You are classed as being in London. Your address says Surrey but you don't come under Surrey County Council's powers or administration for anything at all.

Thumbnutstwitchingonanopenfire Sun 15-Dec-13 12:59:46

I think it's all been said, but I'll chip in anyway as it's a bit of a bugbear of mine. PARTS of London Borough of Richmond upon Thames are based in Surrey. OTHER Parts of LBRUT are based in Middlesex (postal regions) - mostly those with the TW postcode (Twickenham, as Richmond and Twickenham combined to make LBRUT).

Richmond Borough is not subject to Surrey County Council as it is a London Borough. Kingston ditto. They were both subject to the GLC when it existed though.

The border between Surrey and Middlesex is the River Thames, but there have been some efforts from Kingston to try and annexe the bits the other side of Kingston Bridge (Hampton Wick) - Hampton Wick mostly doesn't want to be in Kingston, it's quite happy being in Richmond (but Middlesex, not Surrey). Hampton Court is in Middlesex too as it is that side of the river, but Surrey claim it in various guide books (wrong ones).

S'fun, isn't it? I used to live there - even people who live there don't always get it but my parents were local councillors so it was kind of important that they knew. And my info is probably out of date now too...

ChippyMinton Sun 15-Dec-13 13:01:30

Still waiting for the OP to tell us why it bothers her.

mirry2 Sun 15-Dec-13 13:04:59

Nobody's mentioned North London yet. LB Barnet is in London but Barnet doesn't have a London post code. Some people from Potters Bar say they live in London but it's actually in herts

redshifter Sun 15-Dec-13 13:05:09

When I visit Burnley and I told people I was from Hounslow, they had no idea where that was. Easier just to say London. Even though The LB of Hounslow is over 3 times bigger than Burnley and has a population 4 times Higher.

Most people I know in Hounslow have never even been to the West End let alone know there way round it.

mirry2 Sun 15-Dec-13 13:06:29

Sorry- Barnet is in Herts but it's a London borough as well. Confusing!

takingthathometomomma Sun 15-Dec-13 13:06:56

Generally speaking, if the postcode isn't N##, NW##, S##, SW## (etc. etc.), I don't think of it as London! A friend of mine lives in Dagenham and insists it's London, I say it's Essex as postcode starts with RM.

Doesn't really bother me much this way or that really though.

takingthathometomomma Sun 15-Dec-13 13:09:35

mirry I say some parts of borough of Barnet are London, such as Finchley or Hendon, but Barnet itself (High Barnet etc.) to me are Hertfordshire. I went to school in Potters Bar, travelling by train from north London (not Barnet! grin), and was confused when I heard other kids say that they lived in London.

AnnBryce Sun 15-Dec-13 13:10:45

Coulsdon & Carshalton will always be in Surrey, to me anyways.

Epsom & Banstead, as mentioned in this thread - well, there's absolutely no doubt they're in Surrey!

AmberLeaf Sun 15-Dec-13 13:11:23

Amberleaf, croydon isn't that large. I thought that by stating I've lived here for over 20 years it would be obvious I know it quite well rather than just the particular area I currently work in. I've lived and worked in different parts of the borough and have family and friends across the borough. My first post on this thread was about croydon, my link about coulsdon was in response to a post about couldson being in surrey. I would rather not be any more specific about where I live or work

Croydon is fairly large actually.

The post about coulsdon being in Surrey was mine.

I didn't really need to know where exactly you are/work hmm

Have just remembered the OPs main point and now get it totally.

monkeynuts123 Sun 15-Dec-13 13:11:25

I think sometimes you have people that live in some dull-arse nondescript place and they are aspirational so they say they live in London when in actual fact they don't. I also think people who have never lived in London who pretend to know their way around London are similarly pathetic. It's cringe-worthy really.

DownstairsMixUp Sun 15-Dec-13 13:11:36

I don't get the post code argument (all though like i said, I am not bothered where I am from!) that's just what the royal mail set to deliver mail surely?! If you are in the "London borough of Havering/Barking and Dagenham/Sutton" whatever have the met police, tube stations, london transport, are in london zones it's just London i guess?! My nan lives in Rainham and is literally not far at all from Ockendon but that is an Essex county council but Rainham is a london borough.

AnnBryce Sun 15-Dec-13 13:13:07

Tooting used to be in Surrey too. Even I'd say that was London now.

hercules1 Sun 15-Dec-13 13:16:04

Can't say I'm fussed either way but the op said in first post that croydon isn't in london. Didn't realise by saying that actually it is would cause such upset!

Hogwash Sun 15-Dec-13 13:17:33

Kind of off topic but I met someone a while back who had lived 'really close to Richmond'. Turned out they'd lived very close to Heathrow!

FredFredGeorge Sun 15-Dec-13 13:18:05

So you agree that Southwark was in Surrey once, but now is in London - by whatever definitions - and I'm not sure what they are. But you don't agree that the same is now true of Kingston and Croydon, they became London Boroughs and ceased to be part of modern day Surrey. Like Southwark they are part of the historical Surrey...

monkeynuts123 Surely no-one would say London out of choice when they could say Croydon!

London is not a City, although there is a "City of London" which is tiny but presumably lots if important people are there grin

DownstairsMixUp Sun 15-Dec-13 13:22:09

Off topic but this thread has made me a little home sick! Even though I do love where I live now I do miss being in the middle of everything close by!

takingthathometomomma Sun 15-Dec-13 13:23:25

Stealth London is a city, and the City of London is a city in its own right, within that city! V. confusing. The county that London sits in would be Greater London, I believe.

AmberLeaf Sun 15-Dec-13 13:23:50

hercules I don't think anyone is upset?

Has anyone disputed that croydon is a London borough?

Many parts of it still have, with no plans to change, a Surrey postal address. Which is what causes the debate.

Surely not. London is a met district or a region.

AmberLeaf Sun 15-Dec-13 13:27:11

So you agree that Southwark was in Surrey once, but now is in London - by whatever definitions - and I'm not sure what they are. But you don't agree that the same is now true of Kingston and Croydon, they became London Boroughs and ceased to be part of modern day Surrey. Like Southwark they are part of the historical Surrey

No, because no where in southwark still has Surrey in the address. Unlike parts of croydon borough...

hercules1 Sun 15-Dec-13 13:29:52

I guess as the change to london happened more recently for croydon than southwark that's why it takes a little longer for people to accept the change.

takingthathometomomma Sun 15-Dec-13 13:32:43

Stealth Nope, defo a city! Just checked out good old Wikipedia to confirm (of course, the most reliable source out there!)

I think I may have too much time on my hands, or just putting off doing any actual work...

FredFredGeorge Sun 15-Dec-13 13:33:20

AmberLeaf where in Croydon still has "surrey" as part of the postal address. There are places in Surrey with CR postcodes, but they're not in Croydon...

Yes of course you're right. Because London is the capital city, and presumably they're not talking about the tiny bit in the middle.
Really pleased I don't need to take a citizen test

AmberLeaf Sun 15-Dec-13 13:38:39

Ive said already Fred, Coulsdon.

Also Kenley, Sanderstead and prob others.

You sound doubtful?

AmberLeaf Sun 15-Dec-13 13:41:52

Waddon is another.

Waddon Way, Croydon, Surrey, CRx 4xx

Yes, I'm disgusted by anyone who refers to anything outside the square mile as 'London'. And why did the bastards pave over Fleet River? Nothing should ever change.

ArgyMargy Sun 15-Dec-13 13:46:18

M25 is irrelevant as it was only built about 30 years ago.

hercules1 Sun 15-Dec-13 13:47:35

Waddon is not in surrey despite what someone might want to write on an envelope.

AmberLeaf Sun 15-Dec-13 13:48:04

God, even thornton heath has Surrey in the postal address!

Melfort Road, Thornton Heath, Surrey, CRx 7xx

AmberLeaf Sun 15-Dec-13 13:49:10

It isn't what they want to write, it is the actual postal address!

WhereIsMyHat Sun 15-Dec-13 13:50:13

Richmond is London, it used to be surrey but isn't anymore. It's called LBRUT I.e London borough of richmond upon Thames.

AmberLeaf Sun 15-Dec-13 13:50:57

Addington Police Station, Addington Village Road, Croydon, Surrey CR0 5AQ

Not Croydon LONDON. Croydon SURREY.

WhereIsMyHat Sun 15-Dec-13 13:55:37

I live in richmond borough, the area I live in used to be Middlesex. Middlesex no longer exists but according to Internet address guessing stuff it still does. Same thing when my home town changed counties about 20 years ago but internet sites still give it the old county that no longer exists. These hints take decades to get through to people as is thread has proved!

DownstairsMixUp Sun 15-Dec-13 13:56:14

Is that how people define what is London then? Postal addresses? That's quite interesting then as I remember when I moved from Barking to Romford my flat you wrote to Flat so and so, Romford, Essex but when I moved there I went onto Tesco's website to get the address to our nearest one (which was about a five minute walk) and the address was listed as Tesco Extra, Main road, Romford, greater london! I paid council tax to the london borough of Havering and was in zone 6 i think but I always told people I lived in Essex when i was asked or put that on forum profiles etc.

London Luton airport always makes me snort - it's 30+ miles from London. Bless their aspirational little socks but it's two counties and a 35 min train journey away. grin

FetaCheeny Sun 15-Dec-13 13:56:59

London expanded but the postal addresses haven't changed, what's so hard to get?

hercules1 Sun 15-Dec-13 13:57:31
foreverondiet Sun 15-Dec-13 13:58:38

London postcode = London (n, NW, se, sw, w, e)

London borough = greater London (ie edgware is in London borough of Barnet but has a ha postcode, and is on tube network.)

hercules1 Sun 15-Dec-13 13:58:48

I believe in 2016 the post office will no longer go by counties just postcodes so should help people move on.

gypsygirlfromlondon Sun 15-Dec-13 13:59:59

I live in Bromley had get sick of the argument. I didn't grow up here but I don't care what anyone says or the post code left over from 1965- it's London! It is officially the largest London borough. and I voted for the Mayor of London. We are within the M25

In 15 mins I can drive to Greenwich through Lee and Lewisham one way or Croydon 10 mins the other way. 15 mins on the train to Victoria.

Bromley looks and feels like suburban London. It has the most curry houses of any part of the UK- one for every 853 residents. I love curry! grin

I lived in Kent for a while to and Kent to me is Edenbridge, Canterbury, Ashford, Maidstone etc. It takes quite a while to get used to the fast pace of life here and most people like my husband commute into the centre of London for work. Bromley is huge- incoroprates Bromley, Beckenham, Orpington, Penge, Petts Wood, Downham, Sidcup Chiselhust and the Biggin Hill area.

It's NOT sodding Kent! Greater London should be a county in itself.

DownstairsMixUp Sun 15-Dec-13 14:00:06

edam Southend airport is listed as "London southend to" grin

hercules1 Sun 15-Dec-13 14:00:47

Looks like much of the map, political etc changes gap happened 1965 so still need a bit longer for everything else to catch up.

MiracleOntheM4 Sun 15-Dec-13 14:01:45

grin LRD

On reporting the trial of Lee Rigby's killers last week, Radio 4 referred to 'Romford, London' hmm

alltoomuchrightnow Sun 15-Dec-13 14:02:38

I lived in Kingston for the last four years, it is most definitely a London Borough.. though it still didn't feel like 'real London' to me! Although I adored it, I must say.

timidviper Sun 15-Dec-13 14:02:50

I'm a northerner and I define anywhere that people are surviving the recession and benefitting from any surviving part of the economy (i.e. banking and finance) as London. Anywhere that people are getting substantially screwed is not grin

edam - what about 'London Stansted'?! I always felt so sorry for poor tourists who flew in expecting London to be, you know, right there ...

Lj8893 Sun 15-Dec-13 14:06:56

amberleaf I just realised I missed out quite a vital part of my post!!

All the way to london she was telling everyone to stay close to her as she will lead the way, she's from london and knows her way round etc etc.

It was pretty embarrassing when it turned out she really didn't have a clue!

DownstairsMixUp Sun 15-Dec-13 14:09:05

:O really miracle! I've heard on the news places like Ilford and Barking being referred to as London but not Romford. All though my Nan always wrote my birthday cards to Dagenham, London and they'd still get to me. Generally though it was wrote as "Dagenham, Essex"

AmberLeaf Sun 15-Dec-13 14:09:37

London expanded but the postal addresses haven't changed, what's so hard to get?

Really the only thing that expanded was politics. Local boroughs etc.

The place names haven't changed.

antimatter Sun 15-Dec-13 14:14:41

if I live in Surrey why do I pay London taxes in Sutton?
Surely I should be paying it to Surrey County but.. errr I don't live in Surrey county!

go and ask politicians why they gave us right to vote for Mayor of London and representatives for GLA

Also (and give me different definition)...
Greater London is an administrative area, ceremonial county and the London region of England

I think we would be better off paying fewer taxes to Surrey County and then OP would be right in telling me I live in Surrey, but for now I am afraid you are wrong.

Also if you look at postcode areas listed in

If that entry was wrong - I am sure people with greater authority and knowledge than you and me would have that changed.

antimatter Sun 15-Dec-13 14:15:02

if you look at postcode areas listed in

If that entry was wrong - I am sure people with greater authority and knowledge than you and me would have that changed.

AnnBryce Sun 15-Dec-13 14:28:12

I do hear you animatter - but for someone who's lived near there all my life I just can't bring myself to say anything but Sutton in Surrey!

Damnautocorrect Sun 15-Dec-13 14:33:09

I had an ex who lived 200 miles from London. His neighbour was the most cockney cheeky Londoner you'd ever met, kept referring to London as home.

"Oh yeah, where you from?"
"Welwyn garden city"

Ummmmm that's not London

Lj8893 Sun 15-Dec-13 14:38:32

damn I used to have a boss who always used to describe himself as a london lad.
He was from high Wycombe.

HesterShaw Sun 15-Dec-13 14:38:45

I know someone from Penzance who says he is going up London when they're going to Redhill.

It's all about perspective.

antimatter Sun 15-Dec-13 14:39:07

AnnBryce - I think in time everyone will say Sutton in London

I can't remember number of times I was correctd when I said I lived in Surrey!

I can't win, can I grin

AnnBryce Sun 15-Dec-13 14:42:10

Redhill is my number one place not to live, ever (sorry any Redhillians!)

Yeah, I do get you antimatter - I'm just an oldie.

MiniMonty Sun 15-Dec-13 14:43:29

No hardboiledpossum I think of Richmond as in Surrey.


LBRT - The London Borough of Richmond upon Thames?
Which is on the District line.
How is this not in London ?

To OP - London is bigger than the West End.
(Largest city in Europe by a very long way...)

FetaCheeny Sun 15-Dec-13 14:43:40

It's not that the names have changed as such, but that London has expanded and engulfed areas that used to be part of Surrey/Kent etc. I can see why the postal addresses confuse people, but they date back to the 1930's and much of the change happened in the last 50 years. A quick google solves the debate really.

DoesntLeftoverTurkeySoupDragOn Sun 15-Dec-13 14:51:34

Even surrey says croydon isn't part of surrey!

That's because it isn't. Neither is Addington so the police station has the wrong address - it should not have a county in it. Neither is Sanderstead which doesn't have "Surrey" as part of its official postal address. Obviously you can put it in if you want, but Surrey doesn't start until halfway between Hamsey Green and Warlingham.

HesterShaw Sun 15-Dec-13 14:58:49

Redhill is my number one place not to live, ever (sorry any Redhillians!)

Clearly you have never been to Nantymoel grin

MrsSchadenfreude Sun 15-Dec-13 15:16:38

Proper London is the little bit inside the congestion zone. The rest of you live in the suburbs. grin

Meerkatwhiskers Sun 15-Dec-13 15:27:54

Oops postcode fail blush

Lol at Redhill being London. I wouldn't live there either. I work there lol.

And Sutton is def surrey to me. My DH works there.

The address for Mayday Croydon university hospital from their website is 530 London Rd, Thornton Heath, Surrey CR7 7YE

Lovecat Sun 15-Dec-13 15:31:50

YY Downstairsmixup, I live in Ilford, which these days looks and feels like part of inner London. We are part of the LONDON Borough of Redbridge, but our address is Ilford, Essex, IG whatever. 5 mins South is Barking, part of the London Borough of Barking, but Essex by postcode. And 5 mins West across the boundary of the North Circular is Wanstead, which is E11 and part of London 'proper', also part of LBR, but feels like a country village picked up and dropped into London. Until you see the house prices... grin

TondelayoSchwarzkopf Sun 15-Dec-13 15:35:03

I once had a colleague over from LA who asked us to point where in London we lived on her map.

She got out a Zone 1 map....

antimatter Sun 15-Dec-13 15:37:58

Redhill is a town in the borough of Reigate and Banstead in Surrey, England. The town, which adjoins the town of Reigate to the west, is due south of Greater London

not even part of GLA smile

as Isaid I wish we in Sutton were in Surrey but we aint

AuntySib Sun 15-Dec-13 15:39:27

I think to be in London you need a London postcode AND on the tube. Which rules out Barnet ( EN postcode) but not Finchley.

antimatter Sun 15-Dec-13 15:54:31

post codes were invented for admin reasons to do with postal system not the administrative borders

for instance in 1965 Croydon was included into Greater London and at the same time it was given CR post code

so calling it CR0 as opposed to for instance SE30 was just an arbitrary decision.

Having address of Surrey is showing historical context not the real administrative link.

Address has been made up by Post office smile

DoesntLeftoverTurkeySoupDragOn Sun 15-Dec-13 15:56:11

Just because some websites have incorrectly included Surrey in their address does not magically place Croydon in Surrey.

Bandwagonesque Sun 15-Dec-13 16:03:00

Crystal palace, SE19 and yet in the London Borough of Croydon. Pick the bones out of that...wink

FredFredGeorge Sun 15-Dec-13 16:03:12

Amberleaf Coulsden is not in Croydon, it's in Coulsden (strangely enough!) it just has a CR postcode, as noted by someone up thread, Ilfracrombe has an EX postcode, doesn't make it part of Exeter!

minifingers Sun 15-Dec-13 16:05:40

I have a London postcode. I live in Croydon. I live in zone 4. I live in Greater London.

jamdonut Sun 15-Dec-13 16:16:14

I live in the North, but I am from Watford...its easier to tell people London! After all, Watford is only 20 + miles from the centre of London. Up here all big towns are about 20 miles from each other, and considered "just up the road". grin

hercules1 Sun 15-Dec-13 16:18:29

Coulsdon is in croydon.

DoesntLeftoverTurkeySoupDragOn Sun 15-Dec-13 16:22:16

Amberleaf Coulsden is not in Croydon, it's in Coulsden

No idea where Coulsden is but I do know Coulsdon - it's in the London Borough of Croydon. wink

Coconutty Sun 15-Dec-13 16:23:32

I understand that it's cool to live in London but some of these places really aren't.

BookFairy Sun 15-Dec-13 16:26:23

I live and work in Surrey. Croydon is a London Borough. Richmond is a London Borough. Kingston is a London Borough. How are they not Greater London confused

frisson Sun 15-Dec-13 16:27:37

Sidcup's in Bexley borough, not Bromley.

contortionist Sun 15-Dec-13 16:29:07

I looked up one of the alleged Surrey addresses on the Royal Mail address finder website, and they disagree:

Metropolitan Police
Police Station
Addington Village Road

Don't know about some of the places mentioned so far, but I did used to know some idiots who would insist that Slough was London hmm That's really stretching it!

fivegolddeblooms Sun 15-Dec-13 16:33:14

My Scottish cousin says that her brother lives in London.

She said it to my friends at my hen night, who actually live in London (Islington and Brixton) and they said "oh, whereabouts?"

"Gerrards Cross" was the reply.

hmm hmm hmm

HereIsMee Sun 15-Dec-13 16:40:28

Hmmm... After reading this thread I've discovered I may have been born a cockney but due to a lack of tube station at my North London address I now live in an exotic unknown suburb in zone 4.

I can't believe I read all 10 pages of this.

Mushypeasandchipstogo Sun 15-Dec-13 16:41:20

Flying from London Luton on Friday. confused

4x4 Sun 15-Dec-13 16:42:08

London is when you have a 207 prefix on your landline.
Surburbs of London 208 prefix.
Neither = Not London.

ThePlEWhoLovedMe Sun 15-Dec-13 16:50:33

The LB of Barnet is in Barnet and parts of Barnet do have a London post code ie: New Southgate is N11 and Friern Barnet is N12 - however New Barnet's post code is EN4 but is not in Enfield - weird. All of Barnet is inside the M25.

Apatite1 Sun 15-Dec-13 16:51:00

I like the simple explanation 4x4, trying to think if there are any exceptions to the rule.

I live in Fulham so not much debate there.

ThePlEWhoLovedMe Sun 15-Dec-13 16:51:01

Sorry LB Barnet is in London *

candycoatedwaterdrops Sun 15-Dec-13 16:58:35

4x4 What do you mean by suburbs? The London borough of Barnet has 0208 prefixes. It's still London!

AmberLeaf Sun 15-Dec-13 17:01:22

antimatter have you missed the posts saying that Croydon is a london borough [including mine] and that's why you pay tax to them.

Amberleaf Coulsden is not in Croydon, it's in Coulsden (strangely enough!) it just has a CR postcode, as noted by someone up thread

If you mean CoulsdOn then you are as wrong as the other person who said that!

Coulsdon, Surrey which is part of the London borough of croydon.

Someone had better inform all the homes, businesses, hospitals and schools that they have their addresses wrong.

AmberLeaf Sun 15-Dec-13 17:03:54

^London is when you have a 207 prefix on your landline.
Surburbs of London 208 prefix^

That's wrong.

AmberLeaf Sun 15-Dec-13 17:05:19

Unless you consider Brockley in Lewisham [an inner London borough] a suburb! pushing it a bit there!

UpForAir Sun 15-Dec-13 17:06:08

If you are in Inverness Croydon is London.

If you are in Kensington Croydon is not London, it is Croydon.

redpipe Sun 15-Dec-13 17:09:14

The reasoning haven't answered your question is because I haven't actually said it bothers me have I?
I simply said I couldn't understand why.
Assumptions much?

DoesntLeftoverTurkeySoupDragOn Sun 15-Dec-13 17:09:52

Surburbs of London 208 prefix.

I believe the technical term is Greater London.

tiggytape Sun 15-Dec-13 17:10:17

0207 = inner London
0208 = outer London

All of London used to have the same prefix and, when they changed it there was an advertising campaign, playing on the snobbish upset caused by being downgraded to an 081 number rather than being a prefered 071 one.

Poor old Maureen Lipman was told "Gerald and I are 071" because we're "central London" but you're 081 because "you're outer London"

All was resolved though when Maureen Lipman rang her friend back to point out she was now in greater London which is far superior to inner city London. I guess the divide has been going on for as long as London has expanded outwards.

If you live in one of the official London boroughs then by definition you are living in London. All of those boroughs have either 0208 or 0207 phone prefixes.

HECTheHeraldAngelsSing Sun 15-Dec-13 17:12:11

When my inlaws call from kenya, they ask us "how's london?"

We live in derbyshire!
no matter how many times we tell them how far we are from london, they cant let go of england = london.

Thymeout Sun 15-Dec-13 17:12:45

In Bromley, it is v much the Hyacinth Bucket brigade who refer to themselves as living in Kent. Bromley was the only Greater London borough that didn't want to have the freedom pass - cost too much, their residents wouldn't get value for money because no access to the tube and why would they want to go to nasty, dirty, dangerous London, anyway?

Ken Livingstone had to take them to court to force them to join in. So praise be to Red Ken.

DoesntLeftoverTurkeySoupDragOn Sun 15-Dec-13 17:12:49

I simply said I couldn't understand why.

And do you now understand that they are right and that they aren't in, say, Surrey?

AmberLeaf Sun 15-Dec-13 17:14:08

tiggytape I live in an inner London borough and I have an 0208 pre fix.

Phone pre fixes are not a way of determining inner or outer.

takingthathometomomma Sun 15-Dec-13 17:17:44

I'm "inner London" (although not Central London - that's a different thing), and have an 0203 prefix! Although this is because mine's a new landline. Shops and neighbours are 0208.

I had always thought that the 8/7 was a north London/south London thing until I realised that Holloway also has 0207. Odd.

I'm surprised at the way that this thread has blown up though! Surely it's all light hearted and just a matter of perception? Some seem to be getting quite offended by it all...

stooshe Sun 15-Dec-13 17:20:11

Southwark is NOT in Surrey. Trust me (born and bred).

HesterShaw Sun 15-Dec-13 17:23:38

Southwark? Surely that's only just over the river.

DoesntLeftoverTurkeySoupDragOn Sun 15-Dec-13 17:25:42

It may be light hearted but it isn't a matter of perception at all. I know Croydon isn't in Surrey because I have to drive out of it to come across the "Welcome to Surrey" sign which, I think, is a bit of a giveaway.

AnnBryce Sun 15-Dec-13 17:27:15

Wimbledon used to be Surrey too as well as Tooting, it's not any more.

tiggytape Sun 15-Dec-13 17:27:58

It was the BT advert that said it not me!
Maureen was is 081 = greater London
And her snobbier friend was in 071 = inner (central) London.
That's how it was explained at the time so this "what constitutes London" business has obviously rumbled on for at least 20 years

I didn't know about Bromley actively campaigning to be part of Kent not London though. I've always talked of Bromley as being in North London and probably offended lots of people along the way!

MrsLouisTheroux Sun 15-Dec-13 17:32:01
antimatter Sun 15-Dec-13 17:33:11

Croydon is a london borough but it isn't London


London boroughs are the thirty-three principal subdivisions of the administrative area of Greater London and are each governed by a London borough council.

Then Wimbledon, Ealing or Willesden aren't London either grin
as it is classified as outer London same as Croydon

MrsLouisTheroux Sun 15-Dec-13 17:34:11

'Richmond was formerly part of the ancient parish of Kingston upon Thames in the county of Surrey. The town became a municipal borough in 1890, which was enlarged in 1892 and 1933. The municipal borough was abolished in 1965 when, as a result of boundary changes, Richmond was transferred to Greater London.[5] It is now part of the London Borough of Richmond upon Thames.'
Wiki knows.

Lulu1083 Sun 15-Dec-13 17:34:51

Tiggy tape that is not true, Havering doesn't, it's 01708.

I really don't get all this hoo ha, as an Essex resident just on the other side of the M25 I consider all London Boroughs to be Greater London. They pay their tax to London services and not Essex, that is the deciding factor for me. The fact that the post office hasn't changed the address after the changes in the 60's is purely for their convenience, although I suppose it could confuse people who don't know this.

stooshe Sun 15-Dec-13 17:35:07

As a born and bred South East Londoner (East Dulwich, Peckham, Camberwell) I think what needs to be done now is call London a county and then their needs to be a definition of what constitutes London the CITY.
We've already been Americanised (the worst of it) anyway. Why not pick up something logical from the Americans (New York), where there is a difference between the city and the state.
By the way, lots of people commute from New Jersey and Connecticut and manage to NOT say that they are New Yorkers. They have the equivalent journey into work as say somebody living in Bromley, KENT into Central London.
Urbanisation is what made Southwark come under the London. There are not many villages left within London anymore....Barnes and Dulwich village are the only ones that I can think of off the top of my head (probably because I've actually been to these places).

redpipe Sun 15-Dec-13 17:41:01

Doesn't left overTurkey

No I still think Bromley is in Kent. smile

stooshe Sun 15-Dec-13 17:47:59

Anybody remember the boroughs that used to constitute the old ILEA. I remember being VERY pissed off as a child when I moved to be with my mother for secondary school in NEWHAM and it not coming under its auspices.
It was then , in 1982 that I realised the difference between Inner and outer london. Then London Transport zoned London , then the BT thing. Thornton Heath was always Surrey ( I know too many people who moved their, thinking that they were escaping the "riff raff", only for the area to ...well Thorton Heath aint paradise, is it?).
Now anybody within a fifty mile radius wants to call themselves Londoners! Self esteem injection needed! (I'm being naughty!)

LaFataTurchina Sun 15-Dec-13 17:52:18

I've got an SW postcode and still consider Kingston as London as I can get there on my oystercard, same with Twickenham and Richmond. To my mind anywhere in zones 1-6 is London.

Wimbledon village is pretty villagy - the common is basically a massive field!

TheXxed Sun 15-Dec-13 17:52:23

Using a tube station as a guide is nonsense, Streatham doesn't have a tube station but Rickmansworth does.

RustyBear Sun 15-Dec-13 17:53:04

Just to confuse matters further, Surrey's County Hall is still in Kingston, despite the fact that they no longer actually administer any schools or other services in that town.

I live in Berkshire, which doesn't exist any more except as a postal address. I have a friend who works in a school in Crowthorne which has a postal address of Berkshire, a Bracknell phone number and a Reading postcode. The school, however, is run by Wokingham Borough Council....

AmberLeaf Sun 15-Dec-13 17:55:45

Naughty but funny stooshe and right IMO

I remember ILEA, I remember seeing it on something and reading it out as one word, for my teacher to laugh and explain what it stood for.

I remember people who moved 'out' to Thornton Heath too, back when it was 'all fields'

Thymeout Sun 15-Dec-13 17:58:41

ILEA - Oh yes! Nirvana, if you were a teacher. Fantastic authority to work for. And you got paid more, too. Thatcher abolished it at the same time as the GLC.

ArgyMargy Sun 15-Dec-13 18:01:50

I grew up in a London suburb (yes, on a tube line, with a London postcode, an 01 phone number, then an 081 number, then a 0208 number) and it was exactly as someone said upthread. To a foreigner or to someone north of Watford, I said I was from London. To another Londoner/Greater Londoner, I said was from that suburb. To pretend I was not from (Greater) London would have been daft. People who don't live in the great metropolis have never heard of most of the London suburbs, just as the self-obsessed London folk have never heard of most places outside the M25 apart from the major cities.

AmberLeaf Sun 15-Dec-13 18:03:17

I've got an SW postcode and still consider Kingston as London as I can get there on my oystercard, same with Twickenham and Richmond. To my mind anywhere in zones 1-6 is London

Parts of what is zone 6 are outside greater london.

Robfordscrack Sun 15-Dec-13 18:27:45

I'd consider lots of areas 'Greater London'. I definitely consider Richmond to be in London.

bumblingbovine Sun 15-Dec-13 18:34:27

If you are eligible to vote for the Mayor of London then you live in London nothing else makes any sense. When I lived in Surbiton, I received voting papers for the mayor so I lived in London. The address did not have a London postcode though it had a Kingston one. That is my definition anyway and I am sticking to it.

mymatemax Sun 15-Dec-13 18:41:54

But its so confusing when I tell people I'm from Essex (Barking) & they say "Oh I thought that was in London".
Its a London Borough, has 0208 phone number, Met Police etc etc & is far more London like than country Essex village.

But really, does it matter.

2rebecca Sun 15-Dec-13 18:49:03

I regard greater london as London. Kingston and Surbiton are therefore London, Epsom which is within the M25 but not part of greater london isn't. So basically 0208 is London. It all merges into one city with no real space between the conurbations.

ChippyMinton Sun 15-Dec-13 18:50:07

Are you a Londoner yourself redpipe? If so how do you define it?
Fwiw I live in one of those fringe areas that could go either way, but I'm a home counties gal.

Changebagsregeneratedgladrags Sun 15-Dec-13 18:50:55

I live in a London borough. We get Inner London teachers pay. Yet our address includes Middlesex.

YoDiggity Sun 15-Dec-13 18:54:30

Within the M25 is Greater London isn't it? Plenty of boroughs that are in counties like Essex Kent and Herts are still called the London Borough of Blah, so I guess technically they are sort of correct. ALthough personally I am on Scarlett's husband's side!

Lonelynessie Sun 15-Dec-13 18:56:00

I used to live in a part of Croydon that has a SW postcode, but that is definitely in Croydon, not Lambeth.

Owllady Sun 15-Dec-13 18:58:19

I live up rd from luton and it makes me hmm when I catch the train into London and you go past the luton airport stop and it is called London luton or luton London airport or something
It's not bloody London!

redpipe Sun 15-Dec-13 19:02:01

I am laughing at the couple of posts informing me that London isn't just the west end. Firstly because I know and secondly because they are inplying the west end is the centre of London.

The clue is in the name ha ha!!

PigletJohn Sun 15-Dec-13 19:02:34

Many years ago, postal addresses used to include the county. These stuck, even after the county (such as Middx) ceased to exist, or after the place had been absorbed into a growing city (for example Richmond).

Because the postal addresses were not updated, people continued to think that Staines was in Mddlesex, or Richmond was in Surrey. They aren't and may not have been for more than your lifetime.

The PO no longer recommends that county names be included in addresses. For at least 40 years UK Postcodes have been a much better way for the Post Office, and anyone else, to know where a place is.

redpipe Sun 15-Dec-13 19:03:39

I think Stooshe makes a great point
"Why not pick up something logical from the Americans (New York), where there is a difference between the city and the state.
By the way, lots of people commute from New Jersey and Connecticut and manage to NOT say that they are New Yorkers. They have the equivalent journey into work as say somebody living in Bromley, KENT into Central London."

redpipe Sun 15-Dec-13 19:06:48

I think this map is pretty good. Pink is actually London the rest is suburbs


WhereIsMyHat Sun 15-Dec-13 19:10:45

You're missing the new 0203 numbers from your telephone list.

Phineyj Sun 15-Dec-13 19:13:03

Er...the places mentioned have been in London since 1965. It's not very new news, is it?

MooncupGoddess Sun 15-Dec-13 19:16:24

0207 and 0208 numbers are now allocated at random, most annoyingly.

I think that anyone who lives within the Green Belt is entitled to say they live in London.

HesterShaw Sun 15-Dec-13 19:27:48

What's Dulwich in? <ignorant of London>

JassyRadlett Sun 15-Dec-13 19:28:14

You can't win. Surrey people say it's not Surrey, London people say it's not London.

As long as I have to pay for the Mayor of London I reserve the right to call myself a Londoner.

AmberLeaf Sun 15-Dec-13 19:37:46

Dulwich is in southwark, bits in Lambeth.

HesterShaw Sun 15-Dec-13 19:45:10

So Actual London then?

AmberLeaf Sun 15-Dec-13 19:48:43

Actual inner London yes.

candycoatedwaterdrops Sun 15-Dec-13 19:53:26

Plenty of boroughs that are in counties like Essex Kent and Herts are still called the London Borough of Blah, so I guess technically they are sort of correct.

Eh? Hertfordshire is most definitely not a London borough.

So I guess it boils down to what we consider to define "London-ness"

Historical association
Political designation, current and past
Social (socio-cultural)
TfL coverage (tube stop and red buses anyone?)
Church parish

When we first moved to the UK I learned very quickly that postcodes and postal addresses are only for the convenience of the RM and nothing else. We were in a Camden post code but in the Borough of Barnet and therefore a different Primary Care Trust. We moved here when I was six months pregnant so finding a GP was sort of important grin and I would ring the Camden surgery and they would say, no sorry not us you are Barnet, then the Barnet surgery would see the postcode and inform me I had to find a Camden GP. It was really stressful sorting it out.

Now, we live in the London Borough of Camden, formerly the Borough of Hampstead, Parish of St Marylebone or Parish of Hampstead, depending on which map you look at. When someone asks where we live though it's Swiss Cottage grin unless it's an estate agent in which case it's definitely Primrose Hill grin grin

nameuschangeus Sun 15-Dec-13 19:58:06

OP I have been wondering this recently too. Richmond, Croydon, Guildford definitely all Surrey. Places like Romford, Chelmsford definitely Essex. London is places with postcodes like W1, NW1, SE1, etc etc. If the postcode doesn't stand for (say) North West (NE) or South West (SW£ etc then it's not London. IMO

PigletJohn Sun 15-Dec-13 19:58:10

redpipe, that is not an accurate description of what is London.

redpipe Sun 15-Dec-13 19:59:43


What isn't?

yellowGiraffe8 Sun 15-Dec-13 20:03:36

Richmond, Kingston etc are London boroughs. I agree they are in the county of Surrey, but they pay greater LLondon authority council tax, are policed by the met etc, vote for london mayor not Surrey county council.

PigletJohn Sun 15-Dec-13 20:04:04

nameuschangeus, that is not an accurate description of what is London.

You are thinking of places that fifty years ago were not in London.

PigletJohn Sun 15-Dec-13 20:05:24


All the coloured parts in your picture are in London.

Fifty years ago, some of them weren't.

redpipe Sun 15-Dec-13 20:07:06

The are in London Boroughs but not in inner London. They are suburbs.

tiggytape Sun 15-Dec-13 20:08:19

Richmond, Croydon, Guildford definitely all Surrey.

Croydon is not Surrey. Not in any way, shape or form. It is totally and definitely London.
Richmond is in Middlessex in terms of geography but is still London in terms of government and being a London borough

Only Guildford is Surrey in every sense i.e. geography and local government. It isn't a London borough but the other two are.

redpipe Sun 15-Dec-13 20:09:36

Richmond is definitely not in Middex

PigletJohn Sun 15-Dec-13 20:10:47

"Pink is actually London"

I don't see the word "Inner" which is a subjective term anyway. I don't agree that Hacklney and Leyton are more or less suburban than each other.

All the coloured parts are in London.

WhereIsMyHat Sun 15-Dec-13 20:11:32

Half of Richmond is assuming you're talking about the borough. As explained up thread, most of LBRUT is north of the river and therefore Middlesex (which no longer exists!)

candycoatedwaterdrops Sun 15-Dec-13 20:13:07

Someone up thread said that if they can use their Oyster card, then they consider it London but in parts of Herts, we can use our Oyster and we're definitely not London!

ChippyMinton Sun 15-Dec-13 20:13:59

Richmond town is historically Surrey as its south of the river. Twickenham was historically Middlesex as north of river. Both now in London Borough of Richmond upon Thames.

candycoatedwaterdrops Sun 15-Dec-13 20:14:02

redpipe You're confusing matters by calling them suburbs because there's so such thing. There are greater London boroughs though.

PigletJohn Sun 15-Dec-13 20:18:33

people might mould the word "suburb" according to their taste.

It might mean anywhere outside the EC and WC postcodes, or it might mean somewhere outside the London Boroughs.

Thymeout Sun 15-Dec-13 20:18:37

Suburbs are connected to the 'urb'. They don't exist on their own.

Bromley is a suburb of London, but anything over the border with Kent, e.g. Sevenoaks, isn't.

I'm happy to say I live in a suburb of London, but not that I live in Kent. Kent is quite different.

AfricanExport Sun 15-Dec-13 20:23:26

Well if you going to get picky surely only people who live in the square mile should claim to be Londoners? That is after all the City of London or am I mistaken? ( totally possible)

AmberLeaf Sun 15-Dec-13 20:26:29

No because the city of london is a city within a city.

NearTheWindmill Sun 15-Dec-13 20:31:08

I lived in Zone 2 for nearly 30 years (Putney) and felt that I lived in London. I have just moved to Wimbledon (Zone 3) and I feel it is in the suburbs.

If you can legitimately put the name of a county in the address, ie, Richmond, Croydon, Enfield, Harrow, Twickenham, etc., then I don't think it really counts as London.

mistermakersgloopyglue Sun 15-Dec-13 20:31:58

What are people's opinion on Enfield? It is known as 'The London Borough of Enfield' and if you live there you get to vote for the London mayor etc. But the postcode for some of enfield is EN (which is the same as parts of Herts) and also the address is 'Enfield, Middlesex', not 'Enfield, London'.

Is Middlesex still a recognised county or is that just historical? There is no 'Middlesex County Council' is there?

NearTheWindmill Sun 15-Dec-13 20:33:51

I don't think Enfield is London; it's a suburb of London.

takingthathometomomma Sun 15-Dec-13 20:39:01

I moved to Enfield for a year when I was 18, and, despite being 10 minutes from home-home, my address was Middlesex and I had no tube stations nearby, so I gave up my right to say that I lived in London!

Middlesex is odd. I went to Middlesex University, in Hendon which is definitely London (although in the borough of Barnet...)

I think someone should get on the phone to Boris and ask him to confirm.

flatmum Sun 15-Dec-13 20:41:04

boundaries change, places get bigger and expand. The population of London has almost doubled since I was a kid. hence, I am quite happy to accept that Croydon is a place within the London Borough of Croydon, which is in London. It's 15 minutes on the train from London Bridge people! And it's in zone 5. As far as I am concerned if you are allowed to vote for the London Mayor you're in London (Kensington, Islington, Peckham, Croydon, Coulsdon etc). If you're in the disputed neck of the woods and you're not, you're in Surrey (Caterham etc)

I realise that this means sanderstead is in Croydon which is in London which is a bit bonkers, but there you go.

PigletJohn Sun 15-Dec-13 20:42:45

"If you can legitimately put the name of a county in the address, ie, Richmond, Croydon, Enfield, Harrow, Twickenham, etc"

You shouldn't any more. The Post Office discourages that because it causes (just that sort of) confusion.

If you are in a London Borough, or the City, then you are in London. If not, not.

RubberBaubles Sun 15-Dec-13 20:43:15

Counties are not part of official addresses. I don't think many people would argue that Cornwall is a county yet it is not part of our address. Someone living in Newquay would be:
House Number and road
TR3 etc

Many people may choose to add Cornwall to the address but that doesn't make it correct. The DVLA use official addresses, if you check your paperwork then it won't contain a county.

Also in Cornwall we have 3 postcode prefixes. TR for the west of the county, EX for the north or PL for the east. PL is Plymouth which is in Devon as is EX for Exeter. We only have 1 city in Cornwall and so our postcodes are tied to the next county over.

mistermakersgloopyglue Sun 15-Dec-13 20:45:13

Hmmm, but if you are talking about, say, Southgate in Enfield then that is an 'N' postcode, has a tube station (!) and is known as being in Greater London. I would think of Southgate as London, but its still in Enfield?

Agree about ringing Boris!

watfordmummy Sun 15-Dec-13 20:46:56

We live opposite WarnerBros Harry Potter tour London, yet I live in Leavesden just outside Watford shockshock
Apparently for PR, WB insisted it be badged as such!!

takingthathometomomma Sun 15-Dec-13 20:50:30

mistermaker ahh Southgate is definitely London, even if it is in the borough of Enfield. The 'N' post code and tube station give it that badge of honour. Edmonton too (although they are without tube station).

PigletJohn Sun 15-Dec-13 20:51:15

Postcodes do not cause London-ness.

Oblomov Sun 15-Dec-13 20:54:04

I agree. I live in surrey. Richmond is surrey. Croydon is not London.

flatmum Sun 15-Dec-13 20:54:52

I have just driven past a sign that said:

London 19
Croydon 9

Hmmm. So on the one hand Croydon is only 10 miles outside of Central London. Nothing in the size of a city like London. On the other, it implies they are 2 separate places.

flatmum Sun 15-Dec-13 20:56:26

So why are people in Croydon asked to vote for the mayor of London?

Anyway, people will be happy to have it in London once the Westfield opens I'm sure.

PigletJohn Sun 15-Dec-13 21:00:15

Any voter in a London Borough can vote for the Mayor of London, because they are in London.

Even if they choose to have "Middx" or "Surrey" or even "Glamorgan" printed on their notepaper.

Oh and one other thing. A PP referred to Lords being the home of the Middlesex Cricket Club but MCC actually stands for Marylebone CC.

Flatmum the measurement to London would have specifically been to the cross in the pavement at Charing Cross station, or so I've heard!

mistermakersgloopyglue Sun 15-Dec-13 21:05:41

Yes, the measurement for the distance from 'London' is Charing Cross isn't it?

ChippyMinton Sun 15-Dec-13 21:07:14

Lords is the home of the MCC and Middlesex CC.

NotYoMomma Sun 15-Dec-13 21:09:40

London is surely everything south east of Birmingham?

candycoatedwaterdrops Sun 15-Dec-13 21:10:30

Why are people not getting this? Places like Enfield are a London Borough, they are called greater London. If you want to tell yourself its not London, that's fine but it is actually greater London, so you'd be a bit wrong.

candycoatedwaterdrops Sun 15-Dec-13 21:12:32

1.City of London (not a London borough)
2.City of Westminster
3.Kensington and Chelsea
4.Hammersmith and Fulham
8.Tower Hamlets
15.Richmond upon Thames
16.Kingston upon Thames
25.Barking and Dagenham
28.Waltham Forest

VacantExpression Sun 15-Dec-13 21:15:58

Had this discussion yesterday- is Ealing "London", or not London?

SantasSisterdoesallthepresents Sun 15-Dec-13 21:16:16

My MiL wanted to meet my DH in London for an hospital visit. We all live in Scotland,although I used to live in London and know it well. She assured my DH that she would meet him at the roundabout by the Hammersmith flyover, she was staying with a friend in London. Imagine his amusement (and mine) when she talked, at length of her lovely bus trip into the centre past Stonehenge.

She was staying in Bristol, that famous London suburb.

VacantExpression Sun 15-Dec-13 21:16:34

ooooh thank you candycoated x

mummytime Sun 15-Dec-13 21:20:01

Richmond is mopst decidedly NOT Surrey!
It may have Surrey in its Postal address, but it is the London Borough Of Richmond (similarily for Kingston, Croydon etc), they are not in the County of Surrey.

candycoatedwaterdrops Sun 15-Dec-13 21:25:27

Vacant It's greater London. Good old Ealing!

Pooka Sun 15-Dec-13 21:30:04

Penge is in the London borough of Bromley and has the SE20 postcode.

Bromley is in London. Greater London

HesterShaw Sun 15-Dec-13 21:34:04

Penge is SUCH an unpleasant word.

Pooka Sun 15-Dec-13 21:35:27

Crystal palaceis actually in Bromley.

The shops part is at the meeting point of southwark, Croydon and bromley boroughs.

Pooka Sun 15-Dec-13 21:36:34

Still in London though, hestershaw wink

mistermakersgloopyglue Sun 15-Dec-13 21:36:39

How do you say Penge?

Is it 'Penj' or 'Peng'?

I had never even heard of it until I went there last year for a wedding!

Whathaveiforgottentoday Sun 15-Dec-13 21:36:39

I would say I live in London and in Essex, though tend to say on the the outskirts/periphery of London.
I can walk to the M25 in about 10 minutes and consider 'proper Essex' to be beyond there as this is where the London Borough finishes.

The other reason I consider myself part of London is that I can drive all the way into London without a break between towns - it just all flows into one.
I've almost always lived in Havering and definitely consider myself a Londoner.

Pooka Sun 15-Dec-13 21:44:55

It's ponje.

Pooka Sun 15-Dec-13 21:45:37


Actually is penj.

CelticPromise Sun 15-Dec-13 21:48:06

It's Penj.

Sometimes I say I live in north west London, sometimes Harrow, sometimes my particular town/suburb. Depends what the person I'm talking to is familiar with. I consider myself to live in outer London, but my postal address is Middlesex.

PigletJohn Sun 15-Dec-13 21:48:27

I find this thread really weird.

It's full of people saying "The London Borough of X is not in London."

Yes it is!

Meerkatwhiskers Sun 15-Dec-13 21:49:42

My Nan's brother lived in ongar in Essex which had a tube station. Miles out from the m25 so def not in London lol.

Meerkatwhiskers Sun 15-Dec-13 21:50:00


NearTheWindmill Sun 15-Dec-13 21:52:02

I think it's a matter of perception. Croydon might technically be in London but to me it just doesn't seem to be London; likewise for Kingston. Just a little bit too far away to be properly metropolitan. For me if it takes more than an hour to walk to Charing Cross or Westminster then it really doesn't feel like London or seem quite right.

Showy Sun 15-Dec-13 22:00:00

According to research carried out a few year ago, because of the number of people who commute from here to London daily for work, Norfolk is technically a suburb of London.

So I live in London too.

<misses point>

PigletJohn Sun 15-Dec-13 22:02:12

London is very big.

It doesn't get any smaller just because you're a slow walker! grin

hardboiledpossum Sun 15-Dec-13 22:03:08

For those that don't consider twickenham London, where is it? Middlesex doesn't exist anymore so where else could you say?

hardboiledpossum Sun 15-Dec-13 22:05:36

For those that don't consider twickenham London, where is it? Middlesex doesn't exist anymore so where else could you say?

devilinside Sun 15-Dec-13 22:07:03

this always makes me laugh, the cool London crowd (who are probably not Londoners in the first place) can't stand be associated with the suburbs, so claim that the outer London Boroughs are not part of London. (the clue is in the name)

The Hyacinth Bouquet types claim to live in surrey, when actually they live in Croydon or Bromley

BasicFish Sun 15-Dec-13 22:13:43

I gave my (foreign) students a quiz about London, 1 question asked how many international airports London has. They guessed 1 - Heathrow. The correct answer was 5.

Heathrow - of course!
City - naturally.
Gatwick - erm.. not technically, surely..
Luton - whaaaat??
Stansted - <spits tea out over students> the fuck??

They were more amused by me screechily pointing at maps of the UK and refusing to believe that Stansted was anywhere near London than they were by the quiz.

AmberLeaf Sun 15-Dec-13 22:30:40

Penge is in the London borough of Bromley and has the SE20 postcode

Bromley is in London. Greater London

...and comes under the Lewisham west consituency!

this always makes me laugh, the cool London crowd (who are probably not Londoners in the first place) can't stand be associated with the suburbs, so claim that the outer London Boroughs are not part of London. (the clue is in the name

I was born in London, nothing about not wanting to be associated with suburbs. Just not seeing a place that is geographically not london as london. No true Londoner would give Coulsdon as an example of somewhere in London whatever anyone says on here.

The Hyacinth Bouquet types claim to live in surrey, when actually they live in Croydon or Bromley

How could anyone living in Bromley claim to live in surrey? you mean kent surely?

PigletJohn Sun 15-Dec-13 22:38:53

you can, by personal prejudice, or whim, or habit, say that in your own mind, you don't consider certain London Boroughs to be part of London.

And someone else might say that in their mind, they consider Hampstead Heath to be part of Northumberland, or Wanstead to be in Suffolk.

But as a matter of fact, not opinion, London Boroughs are London.

AmberLeaf Sun 15-Dec-13 22:48:34

Snickers will always be Marathons to me too grin

I wasn't born until the early 70s, the local authorities had changed some years before that, this debate will rumble on forever, because I have never in RL heard anyone say that the areas Ive mentioned are anything other than Surrey.

I accept that technically they are London, Ive said that from the start of this thread, but really no they are not.

LadyHarrietdeSpook Sun 15-Dec-13 22:52:13

Piglet !wink Great message. I am an East End Greater Londoner although not bothered to be 'tarnished' by Essex gibes either. Although I admit I didn't realise until recently Croydon was 208.

tiggytape Sun 15-Dec-13 22:57:14

Having a Mayor has made Greater (outer London) more markedly London in recent years. There are often comments that the Mayor doesn't do enough for the "whole of London" by which people mean Kingston, Richmond etc. In places like Kingston, the fact it is technically part of London was always a bit of an afterthought before. Some people weren't sure or didn't care. Like the fact it is a Royal Borough. Or the fact it is in Surrey for posting letters but not part of Surrey for government. Nobody paid it much attention.

Then the Mayor and London government came about with elections and taxes just for Londoners and this included Kingston, Croydon and Richmond residents. The huge focus on which were the London boroughs meant, in daily life, those residents are much more aware that they are officially part of the London system, London news, London government and London decisions and very much nothing to do with Surrey County Council or any other authority whatsoever. They've been London boroughs for decades but when they each did their own thing, that didn't matter. Now the new system of treating all boroughs as coming under one bigger umbrella means there is a definite 'in London' and 'outside London' distinction and London boroughs by definition are London.

I think the difference is between London-the-capital-city and London-the-region/equivalent-of-a-county.

Bethnal Green, Knightsbridge and Camden are clearly in London-the-capital-city. Places like Bromley, Croydon and Hillingdon are gobbled-up-by-London outer suburbia - in the 'county' of Greater London but not actually London London.

Terminology is awkward because you can't talk about the city (as in metropolitan centre) without distinguishing it from The City (financial district) and the City of Westminster crops up as well just to add confusion.

My late Auntie Pat, born and brung up in Fulham in the days when policemen only dared to walk round there in pairs (and there was a proper working river), who had an accent so gravelly you could use it to scrape barnacles off the bottom of a boat, would piss herself laughing if someone from Croydon claimed to be a Londoner...

tiggytape Sun 15-Dec-13 23:05:36

would piss herself laughing if someone from Croydon claimed to be a Londoner...

But then anyone from even further back would piss themselves laughing at their countryside area known as Greenwich being considered London. People went to Greenwich to escape the plague when it came to London! The two were never considered part of the same place. London got bigger and since the last century has officially covered all of the areas discussed

NearTheWindmill Sun 15-Dec-13 23:08:24

Agrees wholeheartedly with Amber and Edam.

limitedperiodonly Sun 15-Dec-13 23:15:12

They are not London. It also pisses me off when an idiot on the regional TV news FGS describes Romford as London, or describes somewhere like East Ham as The East End conjuring up visions of swirling fog and Jack The Ripper.

And when they say Playstow.

Buy a fucking A-Z and put it on exes.

limitedperiodonly Sun 15-Dec-13 23:16:58

BTW. People in Greater London voted overwhelmingly for that arsehole Boris Johnson.

Thanks, you people in Zone 6.

TeacupDrama Sun 15-Dec-13 23:18:12

postcodes are about ease of delivery we have glasgow postcode but live in argyll jolly useful as if argyll in address lots of cheap couriers don;t deliver without surcharge, once upon a time 15 years ago a l of
scottish islands had paisley postcodes because their mail was sent via glasgow airport which is in paisley, lots of them mull etc still have PA postcodes, most old county boundaries regarding mail postcodes were not changed when local government areas changed

DirtyDancing Sun 15-Dec-13 23:19:26

Basically it's quite simple. There is inner London and outer London.

There are 12 inner and 20 outer London Boroughs (the outer coming under the Greater London authority.

Croydon Council has been part of Greater London since 1965, but the Royal Mail map still has the town within the Surrey county, for some reason.

So Croydon is part of London.


GrandPoohBah Sun 15-Dec-13 23:23:15

To be in London, you need three things:

London borough
London telephone number
London postcode.


Penge is SE20. Crystal Palace is SE19. Both London.

Croydon is CR0 or CR2. Not London. Surrey. Or CR8 (I think). And I say this as someone who grew up a Londoner then moved out to Croydon.

MotherIsTheBestBet Sun 15-Dec-13 23:28:33

It's funny, I remember a thread on here a while ago complaining about people who claimed to live in Surrey when their zone 5/6 suburbs were OBVIOUSLY London.

We've moved to one of these places now and it is odd - neither fish nor fowl. Face north and you're in London, face south and you're in Surrey. And either way there's someone looking down at you for neither being a proper Londoner nor a proper Home Counties type.

AmberLeaf Sun 15-Dec-13 23:29:25

BTW. People in Greater London voted overwhelmingly for that arsehole Boris Johnson

Thanks, you people in Zone 6

Ah, yes. Explains a lot grin

limitedperiodonly Sun 15-Dec-13 23:30:40

South Woodford is E18. Chingford is E5. I lived near them. They're definitely Essex, no matter what the postcodes say. In fact, when I was growing up, some older people were bitterly disappointed that they were classified as East London.

PigletJohn Sun 15-Dec-13 23:33:22

South Woodford girls are just as gorgeous as if they were Essex girls, but speak nicer.

Kewcumber Sun 15-Dec-13 23:34:10

If you can get on a tube then you're in London.

And if you are in "Greater London" then you're in errrr..... London

Therefore Richmond is undoubtedly in London and has been since anyone who matters has lived here (ie me)

Mind unlike everyone else - I am trying to pretend it is in Surrey, dahling.

PseudoSanta Sun 15-Dec-13 23:34:17

I live in the London Borough of Barnet, however not in the area of that borough that is called 'Barnet' (that bit has post code EN). TFL zone 4. 0208 telephone number. Postcode N12. All London yes?
But out of my back window it's all fields from here to the M25. Out of my front window it's all built up. London is weird. And great.

PseudoSanta Sun 15-Dec-13 23:35:39

Cross post with Motheristhebestbet!

Kewcumber Sun 15-Dec-13 23:35:57

Parts of Richmond tube are in zone 3... how can that not be London despite TW postcode.

PigletJohn Sun 15-Dec-13 23:36:23

To be in London, you need one thing:

London borough


The fact that once upon a time the place you live was in Mercia, or Wessex, or Middlesex, or was ruled by Boudicca, is irrelevant.

Kewcumber Sun 15-Dec-13 23:37:00

Mind you - to the welsh family once I got as far as Windsor I was "in London"

limitedperiodonly Sun 15-Dec-13 23:37:58

Excuse me piglet I'm originally just three tube stops east from South Woodford and we are all Essex girls. And we speak the same. But you are not wrong on one count. We are all gorgeous.

AmberLeaf Sun 15-Dec-13 23:46:02

If you can get on a tube then you're in London

I live in an inner london borough and would need to get a bus to a tube stn.

PigletJohn Sun 15-Dec-13 23:46:14

I had more success in South Woodford and Ongar, but was very fond of Buckhurst Hill and Loughton.

Debden and South Woodford do not speak the same.

limitedperiodonly Sun 15-Dec-13 23:49:26

Possibly not now. But when I was going to Jets in George Lane in 1985 they did. Though granted, I was considered the posh bird behind the bar in Cheeks Fun Pub in E17.

Kewcumber Sun 15-Dec-13 23:50:36

OK - or a bus - as long as its red.

PigletJohn Sun 15-Dec-13 23:53:53

'Stow is not posh.

nor Essex.

so not gorgeous.

limitedperiodonly Sun 15-Dec-13 23:54:22

Not necessarily kewcumber. When I first moved to Westminster we had green buses on the 24 route.

They're red now and open-backed. Thanks for that one Bo-Jo, me old mucker. They're also fucking boiling because the windows don't open.

PseudoSanta Sun 15-Dec-13 23:58:47

God those 24s are boiling! I complained to tfl after sweltering on one, heavily pregnant this summer. They gave me the brush off.

BigBroIsWatching Mon 16-Dec-13 00:05:16

I'm in Epsom, my postcode comes under Kingston, why? Honest! Why can't it just be EP... Rather than KT. I don't live in Kingston..

merryxmasyafilthyanimal Mon 16-Dec-13 00:45:36

If it's in a London borough it's fucking London. It really doesn't matter if you don't think Croydon or Harrow should be, or you can't grasp that somewhere with a TW postcode is in London... they ARE in London.

merryxmasyafilthyanimal Mon 16-Dec-13 00:48:42

Yes, mister. Every time you see a sign saying 'London 125' or whatever on a road sign, the number of miles are measured to Charing Cross.

I feel your pain OP. I'm from Lancashire, but if someone non-local asks I say I'm from near Manchester. Its just easier. Technically I live in greater Manchester but I'm not a manc. In the last few years I've noticed more and more locals suddenly decide they are Manchurian.

<eyes up the metrolink disdainfully>

Or even mancunian.

MiniMonty Mon 16-Dec-13 02:16:56

To the OP...

Are you a Londoner (born and bred) or are you some Yorkshire lass whose turned up recently and become confused ?

redpipe Mon 16-Dec-13 05:33:05

I'm a north London girl born and bred.

Dolcelatte Mon 16-Dec-13 05:47:50

Richmond is Richmond upon Thames and, therefore, London. Greenwich is definitely London - Greenwich meantime and all that! I don't see Croydon or Bromley as London, sorry.

Only the City airport is in London.

If you are talking to somebody who doesn't know London, you would just say that you lived in London to put it into context for them, whether you lived in Chelsea or some outer lying area of London. And yes, it's getting bigger all the time!

However, if you were talking to a fellow 'Londoner', the actual area you live in would be much more specific and identifiable. So, Enfield is Enfield and Covent Garden is Covent Garden and the City is the square mile.

TBH, I don't really see the cachet in living in London, unless it is within at least zone 2 or one of the smarter areas such as Hampstead.

katese11 Mon 16-Dec-13 05:50:10

Yup, it's all about postcodes. We are just about to move from indisputable-within-the-sound-of-Big-Ben London to nearly-Essex, but it has a London postcode, so that's OK. Mind you, even where we live now was once considered to be part of Surrey...

Dolcelatte Mon 16-Dec-13 05:50:57

Having just re-read my own post, I think I regard proximity to the Thames as one of the most relevant factors in defining London.

Lots of lamentab le errors here.

The oldest continuously inhabited area of the conurbation known as London is, in fact Westminster. Therefore, only Westminster is, properly speaking, London.

Those from EC1 or EC2 are jumped-up parvenus, and all the rest of you are straw-chewing yokels.

nooka Mon 16-Dec-13 06:38:36

I'm from Greenwich and consider myself a London girl, dh is from Coulsdon and thinks of himself as being from Surrey. Greenwich does not have a tube station (neither does most of SE London though) and has a 208 code, but a SE postcode. When we bought our first house it was in Penge, which is outer London and (just) in Bromley, known slightly ironically as 'The London Borough' still had a SE postcode and a 208 code. Then we moved 5 mins down the road and suddenly we had a BR postcode. Exactly the same sort of area, no demarcation and yes, still in London.

I'm not sure any of the 'rules' quoted here really work. dh and I used to do London walks and some of the places we went to at the end of the tube line were really almost countryside. Also I remember thinking that the smaller the number the closer in, but E4, SE2 and W7 are on the outside and SE16 quite close in. Whether or not an area is called a village is pretty meaningless too now, all accidents of history really.

CelticPromise Mon 16-Dec-13 07:49:05

The tube rule definitely doesn't work, unless you count Amersham and Watford as London.

MotherIsTheBestBet Mon 16-Dec-13 08:15:30

Richmond is in London because it's "upon thames"? So is Henley-on-thames in London too?

candycoatedwaterdrops Mon 16-Dec-13 08:19:31

Watford is an overground, no?

MotherIsTheBestBet Mon 16-Dec-13 08:27:45

I know it's all

katese11 Mon 16-Dec-13 08:30:21

Also I remember thinking that the smaller the number the closer in, but E4, SE2 and W7 are on the outside and SE16 quite close in

The postcodes are down alphabetically, with only the -1s saying anything about proximity. So SE1 is the bit of SE London by the river (Waterloo etc), but then SE2 is Abbey Wood (I think!) cause it's first in the alphabet. And yes, E4 is the bit of London we're moving to confused

flatmum Mon 16-Dec-13 08:37:37

Is this still going on? Croydon is definitely in London, greater or outer London, for all the reasons piglet et al have said. Whether anyone likes it or not, perception, no tube, doesn't feel right, wrong effect on house prices whatever. If you are on a greater London borough you can vote for a mayor and you are in London. Hence why the police officers standing on the platform at East Croydon station where I am now are Met police not Surrey police.

I reckon few years down the line they'll change it and anything inside the M25 will be London.

Agree about gatwick, it's in Sussex ffs not even Surrey.

MotherIsTheBestBet Mon 16-Dec-13 08:48:29

What I was trying to say there was:

I know it's all good lighthearted fun, but what really fucks me off a tiny little bit about the whole premise of this thread is that nobody actively chooses to live in these crappy in-between kind of places. We are mostly forced here by the combination of ludicrous house prices and extortionate commuting costs. So this kind of smug postcode snobbery is really quite irritating. What do you want, a round of applause and a standing ovation for managing to bag yourself somewhere to live in zone 1/2 before the prices exploded?

Maybe that's a bit grumpy. But that is what a zone 5 commute does to you after a while.

ComposHat Mon 16-Dec-13 09:00:56

I feel your pain OP. I'm from Lancashire, but if someone non-local asks I say I'm from near Manchester. Its just easier. Technically I live in greater Manchester but I'm not a manc

I think this is more likely explanation than someone giving themselves airs and graces by pretending to be from London.

Those of us who only go to London once in a blue moon will just give you a blank look, if you name the London suburb/satellite town. For example I've never heard of Coulsdon or Penge and have only have the vaguest sense of where Bromley or Kingston are. So from my point of view, if you life in any of these places, London is a far more useful descriptor.

I find myself doing it when asked where I'm from.

Someone very local to where I grew up, I will tell them the name of the one horse shite hole I grew up in. Anyone from the Midlands, I'll say Walsall (nearest postal town). Outside of the Midlands, say Walsall and the usual response is 'you don't sound Polish' so I just say Birmingham, as it allows people to place me. I don't assume they'll give a shiny shite about the intricacies of Midlands geography, postcodes or administrative history.

Glad to see you posting here again composhat

ComposHat Mon 16-Dec-13 09:06:48

Thanks! I had a bit of a huff and flounced sometime in the summer after getting weary of the absurd threads. Things seem to have calmed down a bit now!

MrsSchadenfreude Mon 16-Dec-13 09:07:55

ComposHat - I used to live in Warsaw, and when I was back in UK and told people where I was living, they always used to hear Walsall!

Conversely, I have a friend who lives on the SE London/Kent borders and moans to people who don't know her, how long it takes her to commute from "Kent". So they are imagining leafy Sevenoaks or Canterbury, not somewhere nestling between Bromley and Sydenham!

motherinferior Mon 16-Dec-13 09:12:15

That's not me, is it, MrsS grin?

ComposHat Mon 16-Dec-13 09:16:07

ComposHat - I used to live in Warsaw, and when I was back in UK and told people where I was living, they always used to hear Walsall

When residents from the Polish capital tell their countrymen they're from Warsaw did anyone respond with 'What, the medium sized industrial town in the English midlands?'

Mim78 Mon 16-Dec-13 09:17:32

I think if it is a London borough it is strictly london but I don't think it matters much. To me it sounds posher to say Surrey but I don't really feel Croydon is Surrey.

"I think I regard proximity to the Thames as one of the most relevant factors in defining London."

But then you could say Windsor was in London

MotherIsTheBestBet Mon 16-Dec-13 09:28:26

Indeed. In fact London would extend as far as Gloucestershire.

PseudoSanta Mon 16-Dec-13 09:59:17

"Hence why the police officers standing on the platform at East Croydon station where I am now are Met police not Surrey police."

Surely they are BTP?

sapfu Mon 16-Dec-13 10:08:35

jI think I'm going to have to give up.

Do you know any English?
Have you heard of the queen?
Have you seen the British Isles on a map, even if you didn't recognise it?
Are you Irish, Scottish or Welsh?
Or a national/resident of a Commonwealth country?
Once upon a time, did the British colour your country pink, on a world map?


You are now a Londoner. You must stop speaking or making eye contact on public transport, and take lessons in cockney rhyming slang immediately, me old china.


sapfu Mon 16-Dec-13 10:14:47

PS Now you are a Londoner, you really should follow this lot on Twitter, to see some amazing aerial shots of your manor. (like the ones of Canary Wharf in the fog that were reproduced everywhere)


You're welcome.

redpipe Mon 16-Dec-13 10:16:09

grin love your post

flatmum Mon 16-Dec-13 10:21:24

no they were Met police - think the BTP call them in if things get heavy? (don't know what they were doing, they wer just standing there).

Also, when my car got pranged in Surrey (just) I reported it in Croydon whilst shopping there and they had to fill in an inter-force referal thingy and "send it to Surrey"

limitedperiodonly Mon 16-Dec-13 10:23:41

They were probably commuting wink

flatmum Mon 16-Dec-13 10:26:16

maybe they get "sent to Croydon" for bad behaviour?

sapfu Mon 16-Dec-13 10:38:08

flatmum you are thinking of 'sent to Coventry'
which of course is also in London

MrsFlorrick Mon 16-Dec-13 10:40:28

Bromley, Croydon etc are London Boroughs. However for correct postal
Address Bromley is Kent followed by BR postcode.

So it's in the county of Kent. And when you come to apply for secondary school places, you can apply to all the grammars in Kent.

If I am explaining where I live my answer will depend on who I am explaining it to. If its someone from overseas, I would say London. because its a London borough and well inside M25.

If I am explaining it to another London or SE resident, I would say Kent (Beckenham btw). Or sometimes the London part of Kent. grin

FetaCheeny Mon 16-Dec-13 11:08:18

Let's face it, as someone said up thread, the inhabitabts of inner lond

FetaCheeny Mon 16-Dec-13 11:13:05

Can't type on this bloody thing, I give up grin

PigletJohn Mon 16-Dec-13 11:46:05

Kent is no longer part of the correct postal address for Bromley (or anywhere else) due to the confusion it caused.

It did take 50 years for the obsolete and incorrect addressing to be abolished.

Apatite1 Mon 16-Dec-13 12:43:00

Can't believe this thread is still going! Have I just killed it though?

Pooka Mon 16-Dec-13 12:49:46


I can also apply to all the grammars in Essex if I wanted, or in Wiltshire if I so desired. Wouldn't get in, but could do it. The fact that (some) people living in Bromley apply for grammars in Bexley (London Borough) or Kent doesn't mean that Bromley isn't part of Greater London!

DownstairsMixUp Mon 16-Dec-13 13:09:32

Yeah you could apply for Southend's Grammar school if you lived in tower hamlets or barking and dagenham but highly doubtful you'd get in (so we was told when I went to a school in dagenham) You had to apply to do the 11+. I didn't even do it even though i was a bright kid, just went to a catholic school. Plus it would of took me aggggesss to get to school (i moaned to my dad) grin

brightnearly Mon 16-Dec-13 15:45:46

This issue has triggered more than 400 replies!!! It's a real issue!!! From me cake and brew to the OP.

I'm in Richmond, Surrey, and take the tube to London, and a red London bus to Kingston.

Does Kew qualify as being in London despite having a TW postcode??

SlimJiminy Mon 16-Dec-13 16:28:39

You're being precious. I'm also from North of the Watford Gap and agree with happytalk13 - if it has a tube station, it's in London grin

I met someone from Southampton once who told me she'd been "up North" as she'd visited..........BRISTOL?!?!?!?!?! When I explained that there were lots of cities further north than Bristol... and that - shock horror - places like Manchester, Birmingham, Liverpool, Leeds, York, etc weren't all doom and gloom, she looked at me like I was telling a joke / taking the piss. Describing sodding Bristol as "up North" is confused

Kewcumber Mon 16-Dec-13 16:32:00

Too bloody right it does brightnearly - its even in zone 3.

<<wonders just how cloe brightnearly lives>>

MrsOakenshield Mon 16-Dec-13 16:35:25

I've only just found this so it's probably been said, but on page one someone mentioned 0208 as a telephone code. Am I allowed to say (or perhaps whisper would be better) that there is no such code? It's 020 for the whole of Greater London.

Slightly off-topic but that really gives me the rage!

nooka Mon 16-Dec-13 16:38:18

Seems a bit of a non issue to me really. I live overseas right now and if someone asks me where in England we come from both dh and I would say London. If it turns out they know London at all then we'd say South East London, or near Crystal Palace as it's a big enough landmark for people to know (if they have visited London as a tourist I might also say I grew up in Greenwich).

I don't say I grew up in the London Borough of Greenwich and then moved to the London Borough of Bromley because it's a bit unnecessary really, and the boroughs are so big it's a bit meaningless (Greenwich and Abbey Wood not being very similar IMO). I'm not ashamed that I lived in Penge, nor would I look down on someone who lived further out, lots of reasons for people to positively choose where they live as well as the cost factor.

GhoulWithADragonTattoo Mon 16-Dec-13 16:45:59

I think it depends who you pay your council tax to. If it's to an LBC you're in London. If not you're not.

GhoulWithADragonTattoo Mon 16-Dec-13 16:49:35

Also having an 020 phone number, having London Transport on your local bus / tube stop and being within the M25 are good indicator of being in London.

MyNameIsAnAnagram Mon 16-Dec-13 16:55:45

Richmond is in north yorks ;)

sapfu Mon 16-Dec-13 16:58:55

north yorks is now in London, Anagram, get with the programme.

limitedperiodonly Mon 16-Dec-13 17:01:59

Epping has a tube station. It's not London.

katese11 Mon 16-Dec-13 17:40:43

Tube station is def not an indicator - would anyone argue that Peckham or Camberwell aren't in London?

DownstairsMixUp Mon 16-Dec-13 17:42:20

I think I'm gonna go for what Ghoul says, who you pay your council tax to!

brightnearly Mon 16-Dec-13 19:31:58

Kewcumber Look out of the window waves fwink

candycoatedwaterdrops Mon 16-Dec-13 20:01:48

Silly thread going round and round in circles. People keep arriving and saying the same things that we have just disproved.

Worst thing is that I keep returning! grin

choccyp1g Mon 16-Dec-13 20:09:31

To anyone who still thinks that everywhere inside the M25 is in London, I give you .......


CelticPromise Mon 16-Dec-13 20:12:58

candy Watford is on the metropolitan line.

strruglingoldteach Mon 16-Dec-13 20:19:09

Whoever mentioned Chingford- it's E4, not E5 and it most definitely IS in London. It's in the London Borough of Waltham Forest.

strruglingoldteach Mon 16-Dec-13 20:23:49

Ghoul- having 020 phone number and being near a tube station do not mean you're in London!

I live inside the M25, in zone 6, have an 0208 landline and a tube station 10 minutes walk away. But I don't live in London. (However, if I was talking to someone from elsewhere in the country, I'd probably say 'outskirts of London'- it's just easier).

Lovecat Mon 16-Dec-13 21:15:12

strruglingoldteach - Chingford does, however, have an active snobby beggars society committed to getting it out of E4 and into Essex.

Much like the Wirral, which had a 'Get Wirral out of Merseyside and into Cheshire' campaign run by some blue-rinsed ladies and a few old buffers... they were made up when our postcodes changed from L to CH, but it's still officially Merseyside according to the post office!

Changebagsregeneratedgladrags Mon 16-Dec-13 21:37:03

If you call it Landan then you're from London/in London.

If you call it Lundun you moved in from The North and think everywhere south of Sheffield is London.

If you call in Lunden then you are from London but now live in The Country/High Wycombe.

If you call in London you are from America and no amount of trying to hide it will hide it.

Changebagsregeneratedgladrags Mon 16-Dec-13 21:38:05

It FFS stupid corrector machine thingy. Ruined my post you did.

strruglingoldteach Mon 16-Dec-13 21:42:07

Lovecat- I had no idea! I don't see why anyone would care.

Changebags I can't work out which category I fit in... I need to say it out loud but my DH would think I'd gone crazy.

fizzly Mon 16-Dec-13 21:42:53

This thread is hilarious. One of my faves of 2013 without a doubt.

sapfu Mon 16-Dec-13 21:43:44

"Ruined my post you did."


You are a Welsh. Or Yoda.

Either way, you're a Londoner.

Lovecat Mon 16-Dec-13 21:54:48

Oh, apparently London is 'common' confused whereas Essex is more genteel... I'm not sure if the campaign is still going post-TOWIE, tbh wink, but it was a big thing when I first moved here (20 years ago now!).

katese11 Mon 16-Dec-13 22:25:26

Noooo! I am just about to move to E4 and will not be happy if I find myself in Essex!

PigletJohn Mon 16-Dec-13 23:44:25

perhaps your gorgeousness will unexpectedly increase. You will need some white stilettos. If you are too old for a mini-skirt, you should dye your roots black and wear a mini-skirt.

Lovecat Tue 17-Dec-13 07:26:10

katese11 - North or South Chingford? Hatch or Mount? It makes a big difference... wink (I'm just jealous cos I live in Ilford - but some of my ILs live in North Chingford and seriously believe they're a cut above...)

VivaLeBeaver Tue 17-Dec-13 08:06:01

If a foreign, clueless type asks me where I live I say Lndon.

I leave about 5 hours north of London but I've either got to say London or Manchester if I want to avoid a ten minute stilted conversation where I try and describe where in the uk my city is.

limitedperiodonly Tue 17-Dec-13 09:07:42

I think it was me who said Chingford is E5. You're right, it is E4. strruglingoldteach

I should have remembered because my friend's Chingford parents were really resistant to having an East London postcode.

Quite angry about it and used to bore on about it being Chingford, ESSEX.

E5 is Clapton, which is London and is one of those places I always think 'how do you get there?' because it doesn't have a tube station. Neither does Chingford.

lovecat It's not new. This was late '70s.

I don't think of Chingford as East London. Or South Woodford.

TruFact: There is no such place as Woodford, although there is a tube station called Woodford.

There are however places called South Woodford, Woodford Wells, Woodford Bridge and Woodford Green.

This was drummed into me in my job. None of these places are London.

limitedperiodonly Tue 17-Dec-13 09:21:22

lovecat Ilford is Essex, isn't it? Please say yes, this is very important to me grin

It annoys me when people say it's East London. It's not a snob thing, it's just not.

Just because places are in the London Borough of Redbridge doesn't make them London. I can't think of anywhere in Redbridge that I'd describe as London. It's all Essex.

Parts of the London Borough of Waltham Forest are London like Walthamstow, Leyton and Leytonstone. Chingford is Essex.

You have to have grown up there round about the time when new postcodes were allocated to know this.

You can't learn this knowledge. It seeps into you by osmosis. It will pro