To think nursery should owe me a day for Boxing Day when they're closed!(153 Posts)
DD attends nursery just two days a week - Thursday and a Friday.
Just been informed that they are closed on the Thursday (Boxing Day) - no problem. So I said, I'd send her Monday and Friday that week instead.
I've been told it's tough and we'll just lose the day but still have to pay for it?!
I work term time only, so don't get paid in the holidays.
AIBU to think that they should owe me a day, given I'm paying for it?
I might add, normally (i.e not Christmas week!) they're dead flexible if I need to change days.
YABU. Boxing day has been on that day for ages.
They're a business
Do you know how little nursery workers get paid?!
Boxing Day is a bank holiday so you would expect them to be shut, surely?
Our nursery closes for two sodding weeks, and we pay for all of it. We are mugs.
I'm aware of that!!
I just feel a little aggrieved that we're paying £45 for when they're closed! Surely we should either a. get a discount or b. get the day owed??
If my usual days were Monday and Friday I'd still be able to send her that week and I wouldn't be out of pocket would I!
My dd used to go to nursery on Mondays and I got charged for every bank holiday. Not so noticeable if your child attends every day and you're paying a weekly/monthly rate, but when they only do one or two days it is a pain.
However, this is one day and if they were actually open you wouldn't send your child anyway I assume?
Captain Do you know how little I get paid?!!! two days a week nursery takes my entire monthly salary.
I think the nursery should abide by whatever the contract you signed with them says. Which I suspect is on their side.
I send my two on Monday and Friday. I still have to pay for all the bank holiday Mondays, even though nursery is closed. It's just the way it is. They still have to pay their staff!
I thought boxing day was a bank holiday.
Do they ususally expect parents to pay for bank holidays?
If your usual day was a Monday you would lose August bank holiday the two may bank holidays, Easter Monday and on occassion Christmas Day and MYD as well and I might think you had a bit more of a valid complaint.
You shouldnt have to pay for bank holidays.
I would be asking if they are paying the workers for the day though.
Oh and I might add I love my nursery, think the staff are fab (and yes, agree they're massively underpaid, so no way having a dig at nursery staff at all) . Just when it's a couple of days, it's very noticeable when you're paying for days that you don't get.
If she was full time, I probably wouldn't notice as Doing says.
Do you know how little I get paid?!!! two days a week nursery takes my entire monthly salary
Use a childminder then !!
Really, you all pay for the days your nurseries are closed? Wow. Ours is closed Christmas week, but we don't pay for it. If DD doesn't go because we're away, or she's ill, we pay for it, and that's fair. It's not up to them in those circumstances, and they can't fill her spot for one odd day, so they'd be out of pocket. However, if they are choosing to close for a day, be it Boxing day, a bank holiday, or Thursday week, that's their call, and I would find it highly unfair for them to expect me to pay for a service they weren't planning to provide.
I cant believe you are all expected to pay for a service they are not providing on bank holidays! I only ever paid for the days my kids were due to be there - any illness/time off etc obviously I paid for those days but not days they were closed to be a polling station or bank holidays etc etc.
captain It's a fab nursery, DD is settled there and I trust the staff implicitely. We did look at about 10 or so childminders, but really didn't feel comfortable with any of them. The two days I need, she is there long days and she's only little, still a baby. I have to know that she's safe and secure where she is.
Mrs This is my point really! Regardless of them paying the staff, yes they're running a business, and I'm happy to pay - why can't they just give me another day back that month??
I just assumed everyone paid for bank holidays! If you don't, how do they pay their staff for those days?
They either provide the service and you pay or don't provide the service and you don't pay.
They can't have their cake and eat it
Op they can't give you another day as they may be full to capacity on those days. They have staff-children ratios to maintain so they can't necessarily just squeeze another baby in.
Does the nursery pay the staff for the Bank Holidays?
I just assumed everyone paid for bank holidays! If you don't, how do they pay their staff for those days?
By charging more on the other days. Which makes with debate a bit of a nonsense.
If paying for bank holidays is a problem because you send your children on on days on which a larger proportion of bank holidays fall, then you need to choose a nursery with policies that suit your needs. It's a bit rich to sign a contract with a nursery and then moan about them sticking to it.
they should factor in the bank holiday pay for their staff when they work out what their fees need to be.
staff costs = £x a year, days open = Y per year, no of kids in =Z per day so we need to charge £w per child per day to meet all our costs for staff/bills/equipment/insurance etc
Quite happy to pay the full monthly amount - I just want my 8 days for it! Can't I do say 3 days the week after, that way I wouldn't lose my day.
Bank Holidays don't come around that often, so surely they can just move things around a bit?
They're not full to capacity. On one of the days she attends, there are 10 babies in. Most other days there are only 5 or 6.
As I said, normally they're dead flexible about me changing a day here or there, so why be funny when it's a bank holiday week?
"purplebaubles Sat 30-Nov-13 19:56:42
Captain Do you know how little I get paid?!!! two days a week nursery takes my entire monthly salary."
Sadly that is not passed on to the staff though purplebaubles from experience of working in nurseries and friend who still does. My friend is a nursery worker working 40 hours a week and knows parents paying near enough their whole salary and yet she is paid an absolute pittance.
I know loads of nursery workers on NMW, that is why its full of young nursery nurses in lots of nurseries because none of the older ones with families can afford to work in childcare any more
We don't pay for days that nursery is closed, but the amount we owe is the same each month as they average out the costs over the full year. They get no end of complaints from parents when they close for almost two weeks in December.
YANBU for being upset that you've been charged for a day where they are closed, but YABU expecting them to slot in your child on another day instead. As someone else upthread says, they have ratios.
In your shoes I would be asking them exactly why they are charging you for a service when they can't provide it because they're closed.
I'm on minimum wage too. This isn't a thread about how much nursery workers get paid, or should get paid.
This is about me paying for something I'm not getting! (and if I was being paid myself for that day, I wouldn't be bothered. But I'm not, so I really am out of pocket)
This is why I never sent my child to nursery on a Monday as I didn't want to pay for something and not get it. I am not made of money! It worked out quite nice actually after a crazy weekend to have my 4 year old at school and just my 2 year old and baby at home for a day.
Sorry, but I think the staff wages are a bit irrelevant here. The nursery is a business, their costs, including the wages, will have been taken into consideration when the rates were set. Yes the workers get paid shite, but the OP isn't paying them, she's paying the business for a service, and they are paying their staff. If they're not offering that service on a particular day, then they shouldn't be charging for it. I'd be phoning them up and saying they must have made a mistake as they're charging you for 8 days, but only open 7 of those.
It all depends on what's in the contract. My DD's nursery doesn't charge for days its not open. But it is more expensive per day than some other nurseries that do charge for bank holidays. So they come out to the same cost.
Also bear in mind that on the days that only have 5 or 6 babies they only require 2 members of staff. If your DD is a baby and took attendance from 6 babies to 7 babies they would need an extra member of staff on that day (if they could find someone willing to do the extra day).
Need to find a copy of the contract. I remember it saying it was closed on BH's (obviously) but don't recall it saying we'd still get charged.
I haven't paid the bill yet for December - due next week. Do you think I should just say, no it can't be X amount as that's for 8 days, you're only giving me 7 this month so how much is that?
breathe that is a good point re number of staff needed...
Yanbu - my dd nursery is exactly the same. I pay for days when they are not open, but I can't change a day or take a days holiday.
But the day Boxing Day falls on changes every year, so eventually this injustice (if you could call it that) will visit all clients.
If the contract says you pay for bank holidays, it's a bit silly to get all uppity about it. If the contract says otherwise, then by all means you should refuse to pay.
This is crazy. DD goes to nursery full time but we only pay for sessions that she attends we don't pay for bank holidays. The day rate is quite high though £5.50/hour and they don't discount for sessions it is charged per hour no matter how many hours are used.
I need to dig out the contract obviously first, so I don't make a prat of myself!
I don't know the hourly rate, just know it's £45 a day. Regardless of what time we drop her off and pick her up.
Homer That's a fair point too.
The people working to take care of you DC still have to be paid and pay their bills.
So be happy your DC is being taken care of.
instead of bitching
I know its irrelevant I was just replying to your comment. Which looking at again I actually misread as you saying "Captain Do you know how little THEY get paid?!!! two days a week nursery takes my entire monthly salary." as though you were saying you did not believe nursery workers get paid crap because it takes your whole salary.
Which is not at all what you said
[puts glasses on]
How come nursery staff are so badly paid, when nursery fees are so cunting expensive?
Ananda I'm not getting paid at all Christmas week..I also have bills that need paying. Could do without paying for a day in nursery I'm not getting!
I don't believe this is about the staff getting paid or not. This is about me paying for something I'm not receiving surely? As I said, quite happy to pay the full amount for the month, so long as I get the 8 days I'm paying for!
because they have other expenses - like insurance, equipment, utility bills, redecoration costs, Training for first aid etc It all has to be paid for.
Purple I dont think you are being unreasonable. Our nursery wouldn't charge for days when they decide to be closed; bank holidays etc. You are paying for a service that you are not receiving.
Oh no I know they are badly paid. Agree it's shocking.
does your contract actually SAY you pay for X amount of days per month?
what about those who usually go on weds, presume they have to pay for Christmas day??
All childcare providers , including childminders, have slightlydifferent terms eg childminders may not charge when they take holiday, or may charge half rate when they take holiday and half rate when you take holiday.
My nursery doesn't charge when closed between
Xmas and new year / my friend 's nursery. Which is more expensive anyway , closes for two
Weeks in August and charges full rate for that. But all the details are in the contract.
If you can't find your contract, nursery will have a copy.
If they let you swap a day that week, they would have to not charge a full time child for the bank holidays so that it was equal / you see that, right?0
I love my DCs nursery!! They go to an after school provision run by one. They are fab! We book on a week by week basis and only pay for what we use. The girls who work there are amazing! The DC love it. We do not have these issues, although once they did not have room for them, but that is the risk we take and we have planned back up!
Obviously depends on that individual nursery's terms and conditions. We don't get charged for bank holidays, Christmas closure or when they are closed for inset days.
doctrine hmm..so I am being unreasonable..yes..I didn't really think of that..Hmmm.
MammaTJ Oh my nursery is otherwise fab! DD loves it, I love it, really happy there. Just a bit about this, as money is so tight at the moment (husband has just lost his job) so we're literally counting every penny.
I used to work boxing day but nursery were closed so I got a refund and found alternative child care for that day. I have no problem with places not being open but I am not paying for a service I am not getting.
It would be like walking in to a sweet shop and being charged for sweets that I am not getting but then being told that the shop assistant doesn't get paid much so I need to pay for sweets I can't have
It depends on the contract. DD's nursery (she only goes for 2 half days a week) closes completely over Christmas and New Year, and you still pay for it. However, that's what's in the contract - we pay the same fee every month. I suspect if they didn't charge for those two weeks explicitly, we'd just pay for them anyway via higher fees year round.
DH is a childminder, and when we set the fees/fee structure that's certainly how we looked at the various options - if we had decided not to charge for holidays/sickness etc (on the mindees part) then the fees would have been higher to compensate
This is why I always used to send mine Tue/Thu
I just assumed everyone paid for bank holidays! If you don't, how do they pay their staff for those days?
They charge a little bit extra on the other days to cover it. After all, that's how every other business operates. If a hotel with long-term guests was closed, it wouldn't expect to charge the guests.
If the policy is to charge for bank holidays, I guess you have to think of it as an extra £45-£90 per year for you to pay (Good Friday and perhaps another) which is less than an extra £1-£2 per week.
It's a pain for you because it's unexpected but if the nursery was £46 per day and bank holidays free, you'd pay slightly more over the year but probably wouldn't feel as bad about it.
If they based the fees for all on free bank holidays. They'd probably be £47-£48 per day as all children would get all bank holidays averaged across their fees (so not having Monday as one of your days would lose its advantage.
Am I helping?!
DS3's nursery closes for a full 2 weeks between Christmas and New Year and I still have to pay full fees. Bank holidays ditto. I was not aware of this (or that they were closed for so long) until a few weeks before Christmas last year and I was self employed then and needed to work .
Also if they can't open on 'snow days' they still charge full fees. If they can't get enough staff in and can only partially open due to bad weather, they will only accept the children of 'full time' working parents.
My Ds was 'refused entry' earlier this year when it snowed as I was 'only' part time self employed even though I had paid the same amount for him to attend that day as the other parents whose DCs weren't turned away. I had to pay for the day even though they would not take him! I was furious but told that I should have read their 'policy documents', a massive folder kept in the office that they continuously update but don't tell you about unless you remember to ask to see it and have a few hours spare to read through it!
This was not in my contract. It is referred to in very small print stating 'please ask the office staff to see the nursery policy documents'. So we were not actually informed of this until the time came.
Keep thinking to move Ds but he starts school next September so really no point as he is settled.
Op i dont know why others are getting on your back, dont think your being UR at all, when my nursery is closed on a day ds attends i dont pay for it. for example they are closed in the afternoon in a few weeks, i only pay for the morning.
As for boxing day i wouldnt expect to pay for that if the nursery was shut either.
Nursery fees are calculated with these holidays in mind
My dd only goes one a Monday so she's always off on bank hols when they're closed and I still have to pay
It's just one of those things
All the Thursday kids can't suddenly turn up on Monday. There will nit be enough staff to cope with it. Also their staff want to take holiday that week too. Just thank your lucky stars you don't do Mondays or you would be paying for 4 of these rather than 1.
I have to pay for all bank hols plus four trainingng days. Thought it was pretty normal.
just because they have drawn up a contract doesn't mean that they can draw up anything they want and make you sign it if you want your dc to go to the nursery, you can challenge this through trading standards. You local county council webpage will have the telephone number or web email.
turning fee paying children away and saying it is all set out in the terms and conditions doesn't mean you have to put up with it
Whether or not you're being unreasonable almost gets irrelevant. If you go to nursery and tell the you're not paying it, you're going to find that there's another day they won't take her, because your bill is overdue. That flexibility you usually get? Kiss it goodbye. Permanently. If losing the goodwill and flexibility of what you say is otherwise a good nursery is worth it to you, then go for it. If she's been there a while, then (like where we use and most other nurseries) the £45/day is effectively subsidised because of days like this. They'll have been very public which days they're closed each year.
We use full time nursery and they're closed between Christmas and New Years. As a contractor, where I work is also closed then (yay!) but I won't get paid (boo). Nursery fees are the same as the other 11 months of the year. Initially I was surprised, but once the maths was explained I had no issue. If you want to risk a great relationship over the money (and it sounds like you are), then don't be surprised when it comes back to bite you.
Ivykaty, I think charging for bank holidays in childcare is one of a range of normal practices, as seen by other posts on this thread and comparisons with childminders etc. I can't see why trading standards would have an issue with it.
because you are being charged for a service you are not receiving, and just because many business do something doesn't make it right or correct practice
Um, but you aren't being charged for a service you aren't receiving. As many, many, many people have told you now, it is budgeted in with the rest of the year, so your other days effectively cost a little less.
Never mind. You don't want to hear it. I'm just going to wait for the thread where you start complaining that you don't have the flexibility any more and they are chasing you for the £45. It'll come. You'll never let it lie. Trading Standards? You have got to be kidding.
DS2 gets annual leave from nursery. We can take him out for the same number of days as I get with no charge for those days. The cost is based on you taking the full allowance and averaged over the year. So bank holidays are covered that way. It's attached to the college where I work so can operate this way. They are open all year except between Christmas and new year as we all have different holiday entitlements and dates but can be verified through personnel.
I loved my dc's nursery and, the more I hear on here about others, the more I realise how lucky I was.
All milk, nappies etc provided, spare clothes, coats etc ditto so just had to get dc there. They even bought sun cream and asked what brand we wanted them to use!
Didn't pay for when they were closed, could swap days (subject to space) for no charge and our holidays (if notified to them in advance) got a £10 per day, per child discount.
My friend used a nursery where you had to take your dc out to potty train and have 3 accident free days before they would have them back, but you still had to pay them! My nursery pretty much toilet trained mine for me.
All nurseries are not created equal it seems.
Yabu the nursery still have to pay staff for being off bank holidays.
It's how it works
yanbu If they need to pay staff then they need to charge more for other days.
My nursery offer a day in leui if you have Mondays.
The full time argument doesn't really stand as they pay a monthly fee which equates to a much lower daily rate.
As Revengofkarma said all that will happen is they will put up the daily charge to cover the cost, this will also include the extra admin as if not averaging payment over the year and invoicing monthly the admin would increase greatly.
It annoys me when parents don't read their contracts/terms and then moan. (not saying it is in yours, but I would have a guess it is)
You are right, just because they have drawn up a contract doesn't mean you have to sign it.
Oh, you signed it.
And you've been perfectly happy with it until now, even when they were flexible with you, which I guarantee (as someone who negotiates contracts for a living) they were NOT contractually obligated to do.
Trading Standards is NOT there to re-negotiate your nursery contract. Or for that matter your phone contract (do you demand a refund of your unused minutes/texts every month?) your TV license (its not on 24/7, so why not get a refund for what you don't watch?), your broadband (you don't use the maximum), or the days your child is sick and can't attend nursery, and in this case Boxing Day.
Even if TS would do something, which they won't (except snicker about you for ages after you leave) you'd have to terminate the contract. Meaning: find another nursery. Who might very well have worse terms. And less flexibility. If they even have space. Ours has a waiting list for kids over a year. And they'll hear about you from the first one. It's a small community.
I say go for it! Refuse to pay! Make your stand! Call Trading Standards! Sue under the Unfair Contract Terms Act! Do let us know how that works out for you, wont you? I could use a deep belly laugh.
purple do our DC attend the same nursery?
DD's nursery is also charging for the full month even though they are closed for some if it. She goes for a few days though so I hadn't really thought of that until now. Hmm.
DS's nursery only charges for the hours we actually use, payable per week and booked a half term in advance.
DS's old nursery only charged for the days we used but the monthly payments were averaged out over the year so we paid the same flat fee each month.
In my nursery we pay for 51 weeks but it id spread out over 12 months payments. So you may very well nit be paying for the week they're closed.
Revengeofkarma you worked in TS?
but it sounds like you are wanting your money's worth rather than spending time with your daughter?
Which one is more important?
I do see were you are coming from however what would you do if they turned round and said we will open on boxing day?
Would you still send your daughter?
I also take it you will be happy if you phone company shuts down all your calls on boxing day, the tv goes off along with the internet connection and you still have to pay for all these services as these companies have staff to pay and say you have no justification for complaint. The op isn't complaining about not wanting to use the nursery and it being open and then wanting a refund
If the nursery was open on boxing day, how many children would actually be there?
Rose - reckon we would have 60% for part of the day
It depends on what your contract says. Most private day nurseries I know, are owned by people living in big houses with shiny, big, new cars. i imagine this is one of the ways they get to that point. So their out goings to shut the nursery will be lower as the nursery is closed but they are still taking in all the fees and making a profit. It's easier for them if the nursery is shut as all staff have the same holiday dates meaning no cover is required (which would mean paying out twice, once for holiday pay and once for cover for absent staff). (This assumes bank holidays come out of their holiday entitlement, which in each nursery I worked in this was the case).
Insanityandbeyond I would be livid if that happened to me and would have withdrawn my child immediately. That is a dreadful way to conduct business. They get away with it as people don't want to disrupt their children, but that is a very unfair way to operate. Everyone goes on about childminders not being as reliable as they may need to take time of if they are Ill, but at least they are upfront about it, not like this nursery.
I don't know why money making and profit has to come into raising our children. But I do know that parents should read and understand their contracts before signing them.
No, I don't work for TS. Never have, never will. I have, however worked with them. And before that I knew what TS does.
You keep insisting you're paying for a service you're not getting.
You're not. Follow the money. Enough people have explained it to you.
You also stated that You can challenge the contract through TS.
You can't. If for no other reason than every TS would then be swamped with people in perfectly valid contracts trying to "challenge" them to no end except a lot of wasted time and resources.
And each of the services you cite do shut down from time to time for maintainence, or problems. Sometimes scheduled, often not. You won't get a refund for it. So your point is what precisely?
yABu they will still have to pay their staff for that day. This is standard practice.
can I ask why that is?
I find that surprising
sorry thread moved on my comment was to worryingunnecessarily
When my daughter was at a nursery on Mon, Tues and Wed, I complained about the bank holiday Mondays and said it wasn't fair as I had paid based on a per day charge, and now the nursery was closed for 3 Mondays within 2 months (easter and may bank holidays) - they agreed and said i could have extra days provided they had space.
The way it works at my place of employment (I work part time) is that I get my bank holidays pro-rota-ed) so essentially if I work on Mondays, I have to use up annual leave (or take unpaid) to cover all the bank holidays - they should charge more for the other days to compensate, so no difference if using full time.
I have a nanny now and pay her bank holidays, even through mine are pro-rata'ed just didn't seem fair to her any other way.
In reality if you don't use on a Monday it probably works out the same. So whilst in principle YANBU, I think its not worth making a fuss.
I think the majority would use it for a few hours to get stuff done, have some time etc. Who knows. The way my 2 are behaving at the moment I might insist we open so I can send them in
I childmind and I reckon if i opened on Boxing Day at least one of my families would send their children to me. (And I only have two families). They do not wish to spend more time with their children than they have to. I have never known them to drop of late or pick up early. Even when they have the day off work they would rather rush in the morning, than spend an extra 10 mins with their children. I have been told they have sat on the supermarket car park down the road doing nothing for 15 minutes rather than pick up slightly early. It may be sad but it's how some families operate.
Use a childminder then !!
Mine still gets paid for bank holidays
hahaha the most ridiculous judgy post I've ever read. It's not exactly going to happen is it?
If you weren't happy with the contract you shouldn't have
Placed dd there
And actually done
More fecking research....
This childminder doesn't get paid for bank holidays. As a parent I wouldn't want to pay for a place I couldn't use, so I don't charge other parents to do this either.
When my dds went to nursery, I chose Tues and Wed so I didn't cop for every BH Mon and Good Friday. However, if Xmas day or Boxing day fell on either of those days, then I lost out. It's just how it is unfortunately.
Lucylouby that is horrible.
I really hope parents not wanting to spend time with their children especially at Christmas is uncommon .
When I had a childminder there was never any question over the Christmas peroid, I wanted my kids with me, it's Christmas
I never would have dreamt about asking if she was 'open' for business that day or not.
This thread is making me sad
It's just the way they organise fees and bank holidays.
Just be happy that she doesn't go on Mondays as then there would be more bank holidays to pay for
OP is this the first christmas at the nursery?
If you work term time could you change your contract with the nursery to term time too?
TBH Rose I had terrible PND with my older child and used the last 15 minutes before I had to collect him to compose myself after crying the whole way home from work. I also kept him in nursery while I was on maternity leave with my second child for the same reason.
I always have to pay for Bank Holidays etc
It's in the contract. That I read and signed before DS started. I know it can grate a little but they are a business, they will have told you this before you signed up and the staff need paying.
Ivykaty isn't the OP.
If the nursery were required to change it, all they would do is charge a higher day rate.
Erm, RoseRedder after getting iff your high horse playing the tiniest violin, you might want to accept that a) some of us are self-employed so yes, actually I'd like not to miss out in almost 2 weeks b) big everyone has the money or the family and friends to sufficiently entertain their kids over those 2 weeks. Just because you feel like that it doesn't mean it's the ultimate truth
Not everyone instead of big everyone.
Oh and considering the OP has the DC un the nursery for just 2 days, I'd say she spends plenty if tine with them otherwise.
Here's another way to look at it. We're about to enter December. For those posters who are employed, imagine that you go into work on Monday and your employer says "we've just realised that in December you'll be working several days less than normal so we'll be paying you 10/15% less".
What would you say? Would it be "right-oh!" or would it be "oh, I think we need to see what the contract says"?
The point here is what's been agreed to.
Same policy at my nursery, and the reason I don't work on Mondays. Our nursery workers do get paid for bank holidays though. Doesn't bother me, it was clearly in the contract.
I don't think YABU purple. Why should you pay for something you're not getting?
Yes, the nursery is a business. That means you pay for a service and they provide it. Not you pay and they don't bother. How/what they pay their workers (or not) on a day they choose to close is frankly not the clients' problem.
If you bought lunch every Thursday at a cafe, would you expect to be charged for the lunch you won't be getting on boxing Day because they're closed? After all, maybe the cafe owner has to pay his staff anyway... bollocks.
If it is in the contract probably not much you can do though. Other than point out that it is actually shit for business to not provide the service your customers paid for.
OP am I right in thinking you are paying 4x your salary in childcare? Surely that's not sustainable long term anyway?
Revengeofkarma - you go to trading standards for advice, you don't challenge the nursery through trading standards. Trading standards are there for service advice therefore the op can telephone them and not be sniggered at for asking for such advice to see where she stands with this situation, and yes if your phone, tv service or other service is not working then you are entitled to a refund for the time that it isn't working.
I think you are BU ... if you send your child on another day you might affect your their ratios... I think it is tough. They still have overheads to pay just because it is the holiday ... if you sent your child full time and paid monthly would you expect to get a day back for christmas and bank holidays ... no (well you could but no doubt it would put their fees up). This is how it is nurseries ... tough luck
How can they charge for a service on X day if they are not actually providing it? Surely that's basic breach of contract.
Like any other business, they should be working out their total costs inc. pay for employees during bank holidays and charging a daily rate that incorporates this to all their users. Otherwise, parents who only use the Nursery on Mondays are receiving fewer sessions than parents who only use the facility on Wednesdays, but they're being charged the same fee.
Also, it's nonsense to try to compare this to your employer paying you for bank holidays. The OP isn't their employer, she's paying for a service.
If you shopped at Tesco's on Mondays and they closed for a bank holiday, (!) you wouldn't expect to be told you can't have any groceries today but we're still going to charge you as normal because we still have to pay our staff.
I agree that it is wrong to charge for a service that is unavailable (I am a CM) but if OP has signed a contract agreeing to the nursery's T&C's then that is that.
Surely either the OP signed a contract stating bank holidays would be charged for or she didn't? It's not a question of them being wrong, it's a question of what the OP has agreed to.
Either costs of paying staff bank holidays will be recouped by charging parents on that day, or with increased fees year-round. Depending on which it is in this case, the OP will either have to pay or not.
I know you don't go to TS to challenge the contract. Most people do. I was merely quoting your words. And they won't snigger at you. Until you leave. Every job has stories, and this would be one. Especially since TS doesn't provide advice to consumers in the first place. You can report things to TS, so they can investigate. You might be confusing them with Citizens Advice. Then again, since you thought you could challenge contracts through these organisations, you could just be talking out of your backside.
And you just try to get a refund for time down due to maintenance on your phone, Internet or what have you. Go ahead. They'll point you to the relevant clause in the contract that says no, you're not entitled.
I really don't know what's worse. Your profound sense of entitlement or your complete inability to read a contract.
Next she will try to fight her landlord over rent on the grounds that since February has 28 days, she shouldn't have to pay extra like those months that have 30 or 31! The horror!
We didn't go with a particular nursery when Ds was little for their bank holiday policy as I worked Mondays (incl BH) so couldn't afford to be paying for something I wasn't getting PLUS paying for an alternative as I still needed to work.
YANBU to think its rubbish and an unfair practice in principle.
YABU to not know that it is common and what you've signed for.
The whole thead is why my blood boils when it comes to childcare. It's stupidly expensive (don't know if that's greed or govt. red tape). The charges aren't reflected in the staff pay and finding wrap around childcare can be a nightmare - like people don't still have to work BH/term-time/xmas.
There are 2 ways to do it. Either you say we need 11.7k per place per year to make a profit , so that is 45pounds a day for 260 days and people pay for bank holidays or we charge 46.50 a day , don't charge for bank hols.
Charging for bank holidays look attractive to a nursery because 1) people don't read the small print and just look at the price 2) this way favours full time children which are better customers than part timers timers (in terms of money into the business, ease of administration, reliability of income stream etc)
There's also the issue that ratios are one part of the equation, and the number of children a nursery is allowed to have overall is another. They may have only 100 attending every day, and keeping to the ratios needed, but they'll only be allowed a capacity of (and I'm making this number up as it depends on a lot of factors) 175. If a child attends 10 sessions a week (full time) that's one towards capacity. If a child attends one session a week, that's also one towards capacity. Which tends to mean that those getting part time care pay a bit more in any event per session as they effectively prevent the nursery earning more. Whether or not that's fair tends to depend on which side of the equation they're on.
revenge, where is the 'profound sense of entitlement' from an Op who works minimum wage and whose DH just lost his job?
Quite likely she isn't paid for days she doesn't work - and she still has to pay the nursery.
Obviously nursery workers should get bank holidays off.
But can't we have some compassion for struggling parents who take a hit on those days?
It's sad when someone's misfortune - that desperate need to count every penny - gives munsnetters an opening for a deep belly laugh.
Working out bills is incredibly complex and time consuming.
It is just easier to work it out based on the same number of days the child attends per month.
If they have to change the bills to take account of Bank Hoildays it adds to the time and expense as every child's bill will have to be adjusted and an invoice produced.
If the nursery is small it may be the manager's job to do this- themanager may be included in the ratios, so this impacts on the time available to spend with the children.
If the nursery is large or part of chain, they may have hundreds of fees to recalculate and invoices to alter.
Also, Bank Holidays are taken into consideration when deciding fees. The nurseries that claim they don't charge for BH wll usually have higher daily rates.
As for swapping days, one extra child may mean an extra staff member- not always easy if staff are on holiday. The may have to use their holiday entitlement by the end of the year,as most places won't let you carry it over to the next year.
Gosh, lots of unnecessary, nasty comments on this thread after my last post!
Ok. Firstly, I've never said I was going to Trading Standards, so wind your necks in! Secondly, I don't believe that the costs do even out over the course of a year, when you only pay for 2 days a week. We pay £45 a day. If your child is in full time (or more days) it's cheaper. We pay the highest rate. Thirdly, I have to work. I have no option. I'd love to spend all week with my baby, but I can't afford to - so I really don't appreciate the comments about me obviously not wanting to spend time with my daughter!
However, having said that, if they were open on Boxing Day, YES I would send her in! Not for a full day, but just long enough to get loads of jobs done around the house that I don't have time to do because I'm either a. at work, or b. enjoying time with my daughter.
It seems as though there are a lot of ppl on this thread who think £45 is cheap and I"m making an issue out of nothing. To put it in context, £45 is our household food bill for the week.
I did read my contract before signing. I noticed the part about them being closed on Bank Hols. It was not clear (at the time I read it) that I would still be charged for a service I was not receiving. So clearly it was deliberately hidden in the small print (which is probably what's annoyed me the most) The nursery is fab. I love it. We're happy there. But it's not the cheapest. We have to provide nappies, wipes etc, not all included like some nurseries do. Incidentally, the nursery owners (it's a small business, think they have 3 in total) do drive around in their swanky cars etc so it's obvious where all the money is going!! BUT we chose the nursery on the basis of how comfortable I felt leaving my small baby with the staff - who are fantastic and for me, yes, it's worth every penny.
No. Nursery is not 4x my salary. It's my whole salary, nearly. The difference (small that it is) is the amount that we need to make ends meet. Catch 22. If we didn't send her at all, we would not be able to make ends meet.
I'm not about to go in on the bounce. I was just wondering if this was common practise and what other people, who use nurseries, thought about it.
It's definitely not worth me ruining a great relationship with the nursery over, but given it's obviously management who make these decisions, not the actual staff, I don't believe it's going to harm my care etc if I raise the question?
Yanbu, it takes the piss. The fact that something was in a contract you freely signed certainly doesn't mean it's fair. That said, if DD is settled in the nursery and you're otherwise happy with them, you may just have to suck it up.
Does the nursery have a comments/complaints box or undertake parental questionnaires?
If they do then you will have the opportunity to question their policy regarding BHs
if you can get lots of other parents all to do the same then you may be able to get them to change it.
If you are unhappy with the contract then I think you should ask them about it.
Our nursery charges us (£80 per day) for bank holiday Mondays when they are always shut, but does not charge us for Jewish holidays when they are also shut, or Christmas Day-New Year's Day when it is also shut. Go figure!
OP, if it's not clear in your contract or any accompanying policies, then you have more of a case. You might also want to check policies for snow days etc.
Especially since TS doesn't provide advice to consumers in the first place.
Trading standards have a website to explain the help and advise they can offer to consumers, put your postcode in for your local office. You are able to telephone your local office for further advice if needed.
"It was not clear (at the time I read it) that I would still be charged for a service I was not receiving. So clearly it was deliberately hidden in the small print (which is probably what's annoyed me the most)"
But was it there or not? Doesn't matter how small the font they used was. Either it made clear bank holidays are charged for or it didn't. If it did, then annoying as it is, there's nothing you can do. If the contract in whatever sized print was genuinely ambiguous on this point, you have an argument and I would agree you should make it.
So clearly it was deliberately hidden in the small print (which is probably what's annoyed me the most)
Like TheDoctrineOfWho says, it might not be there at all. Why don't you ask them to clarify where you've agreed to pay for Bank Holidays and if they can't find it, say that you expect not to be charged for these days.
Oh, and my earlier post, several days fewer not several days less!
I thought all nurseries did this. Our nursery is closed for two weeks over Christmas and we still pay Its bloody miserable pouring your money away for nothing though so I feel for you OP.
From the tradingstandards.gov.uk website. Just because an idiot is calling me a liar.
"TSI is a membership and training organisation and does not give consumer advice - you need to contact the Citizens Advice consumer service, which does handle consumer enquiries.
The Citizens Advice consumer service provides free, confidential and impartial advice on consumer issues.
You can look on www.adviceguide.org.uk or call the Citizens Advice consumer helpline on 08454 04 05 06*."
The sense of entitlement is from "I signed the contract, and now I don't want to live by it. And since they're richer than me, they must now bow to my every whim." You want compassion, try not acting all entitled or that the rest of us don't work for a living!
>I was just wondering if this was common practise and what other people, who use nurseries, thought about it.
It is common practise though there are various ways of pricing a service. For example, some providers operate a pay-as-you-go service so you pay a higher fee but only pay for what you use. Others will calculate costs based on you using the service all year round, others may do it on a per term basis - then break that down into daily/hourly charge.
It should be made clear in contracts and other documentation what is and is not chargeable. So if it is not clear then you could point that out to the nursery owner so that they can add further information to the Information Pack that parents get when they first enquire about the nursery.
If the contract is ambiguous on that matter than it is worth arguing the point. You have agreed the contract as per your understanding of the contract. If a point is not clear then the nursery I feel needs to make it clearer in future contracts. If it before a court, what would the ruling be, that the contract is reasonably subject to more than one interpretation. The nursery interpret it one way, service users (parents) see it another way.
And for the record, and indeed as already stated, I don't get paid for the days I don't work. And I still have to pay nursery for the week they're shut between Christmas and New Year's. and any day my DD is sick. Half pay for holidays with a month's notice. So yeah, I must be a hard hearted cow with no understanding of what it is like to not get paid but have to pay nursery fees.
And of course, constantly be called a liar by ivykaty44, champion of consumer law. Thankfully, I at least have the consolation of basic, published facts being on my side there. Challenging contracts through TS. Hahahahahahahahah. She said it. I only quoted. Follow her advice at your peril and my amusement. Why is it amusing? Because that's what I get paid to deal with, except that the people who want my advice a) seem to have a clue and b) want to take it to find the best way forward (and the best commercial outcome for them financially) instead of calling me a liar.
I feel your pain OP - £45 is our weekly food bill too, as i said before some (nice/preferable) nurseries just weren't fianancially doable for us and I wish I didn't have to make that choice.
If it's not clear and you're sure it wouldn't alter the relationship with the nursery, I'd query it - what you got to lose?
Do think you'll end up having to suck it up though.
Also don't understand some of the judgyness going on about the amount of time you spend with your daughter or about people who would use childcare on Boxing day - some people would still need it as they have to work especially now that there is no bloody retail rest.
I haven't read all the replies so sorry if I'm repeating something that has already been said.
I work in a nursery, we charge for all bank holidays because us staff need to be paid - as you do I assume? The reason you may not be able to change days is because they are on ratio that day. My room at nursery is at full capacity everyday, so if a parent asked to change a day to another for any reason they would be told no - because it is illegal to be over ratio.
I understand it's annoying, but at the end of the day it's a business.
Also, if you working is only covering childcare costs is there really a need for you to work when you're not gaining any more money?
Combine, I think the comments about time spent with kids were in response to another poster who is a CM about some of her mindees, rather than about OP.
Also, if you working is only covering childcare costs is there really a need for you to work when you're not gaining any more money?
This could be because the OP wants to keep her hand in regarding her work. Or because she benefits from having a home life and also a formal work life. Or something else. It's perfectly reasonable.
The price is usually fixed at rate which takes into account bank hols spread over every day of the year. If you were entitled to a rebate for every bank hol, the price per day would be higher.
Think of it from a full time pov: for a child who was f/t when exactly would a day in lieu of a bank hol be given? The child would already be there on that day. And in the case of a nursery like yours where the f/t places are divided out into a selection of p/t places, suppose every child who would have been in nursery on a Thu demanded to come in on another day, the nursery would be illegally bursing at the seams on that day because they would be added to the usual p/t children for that day.
I know it is hard from your pov, but you haven't thought it through.
Also by law, your daily rate should include an amount which is towards holiday and bank holiday - they can either pay it separately or build it into the daily rate. But you are being paid pro rata for bank hols / a pro rata amount of min holiday allowance - it's law!
You're paying for the place so regardless of whether your child goes you must pay. If you just refused to pay on random days then they would be within their rights to give that place away. YABU.
Standard T's&C's at most nurseries. I use Monday and Friday which is the least value over a year due to BH, however as I am off all bank holidays I am not too bothered.
Our nursery is open 51 weeks a year, the price of the closed week is spread over the rest of the year.
DS used to attend full time so I accepted the bank holidays as par for the course. DD1&2 have only ever attended Mondays and Fridays which is statistically the worst possible combination. Unfortunately Tuesday to Thursday are the days family member (DM/MIL/DH) can do.
A couple of years ago there was an outbreak of something that required the baby room to be closed for most of December for deep cleaning. We had more than 2 weeks with no childcare at one days notice. I was lucky as I only needed to find care for 2 days a week! We did not pay for the closure. I received a bill for over £200 for 1 day of care that month. I argued that this wasn't fair. I agreed that I hadn't been charged for the closed sessions, and I normally paid for the closure over Christmas. They waived the fees (other than the one session she went to) as a goodwill gesture.
I have suggested in the past that the cost of bank holidays is pro rated, but the nursery have no appetite for something that doesn't affect most parents abandon would be difficult to administer.
If they cant provide the service because they are closed that's fine. But how can they charge you for it?
every nursery does this and they work your fees out over 51 weeks there for you are not paying for the day that they are closed you are paying a little bit less each month
I'd be surprised if they charge. Our nursery is open 51 weeks a year (minus bank holidays). We"re only charged for when its open, but the savings are spread through the year.
Colinfirth, there's lots if examples on the thread of nurseries who do charge for bank holidays.
That's so cheap!
Try average £70 down South!
I pay FT for 51 weeks a year, 52 is a closed christmas week but they do close another week too, then if we're away, illness etc its all paid for
I reckon its about 7 weeks a year at £250 a week not paid for, BUT I knew that when I signed up, its not ideal but its a great place and its what I have to do to get pod quality childcare for the other 45 odd weeks a year, which wins out every time
It is ridiculous to suggest that trading standards would get involved with this. It is simply an annualised cost. There is nothing wrong with a nursery saying "this is the service you are getting and it excludes bank holidays and the annual cost of that is £x and we are going to ask you to pay £x/12 every month to keep things simple". So effectively some months you get more than what you are paying for and some months you get less. I mean some months have 28 days in them and some months have 31 days - you are not getting the same amount of nursery days each month anyway but most nurseries expect you to pay a set monthly fee based on your contract.
None of our local nurseries charge for bank holidays, they do charge if you don't attend of course but not if they are shut.
What is legal and what us fair seem to be two different things.
IMO the nursery should not charge for days when they are closed. That would mean the daily rate having to be increased but why should the OP have to pay the same as another parent for only half the service? And its bound to be worse for a parent whose child attends on a Monday since that's when most bank holidays are.
There are 260 week days (Mon-Fri) per year and only 8 of them are bank holidays the increase in daily rates needed to cover a zero charge on bank holidays wouldn't be much.
I think you wouldn't notice so much if she went five days a week - you'd probably accept that this is an annual cost, divided by 12, and the nursery is closed a few days. It becomes really noticeable when she only goes two days a week and the nursery is closed for one of them. I don't think there's anything you can do about it though - it's not great from your perspective but I'm sure it's legal.
(Brief diversion: the son of a friend of mine suffered a head injury at nursery which was probably the nursery's fault for not supervising him properly. He was off nursery for a week but they still charged the parents. I think the key thing in all of this is that in the nursery-parent relationship, the nursery holds all the cards.)
If every child who should do a Thursday did a different day they would prob have too many in
It's ridiculous to charge for days when they are not open. They are not providing a service so why should the customer pay? They need to charge more for the days they are open to cover costs (staff salaries etc) on the days they are shut.
Nurseries clearly only do this to make their "day rates" look cheaper. It's not fair/reasonable at all.
The OP may well be a net loser if the cost of bank holidays was spread as she doesn't use Mondays.
I must be very lucky with my nursery. We do not have to pay when the nursery is closed, and the monthly bill is calculated on the number of nursery days that month. The nursery is closed on bank holidays and for a few other days at Christmas and Easter. This means my bill for December and March/April is much lower than other months!
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