To ask you not to buy angora products? (Warning - graphic link)

(86 Posts)
Resideria Wed 20-Nov-13 20:37:56

Was thinking of buying angora socks for my mum for Christmas before I read about the unspeakable practices behind angora fur production. I had no idea! Apparently 90% of all angora is produced in China, link is here:
www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57612939/peta-releases-video-of-angora-rabbit-investigation-in-china/

SuburbanRhonda Wed 20-Nov-13 20:52:30

I wonder if no one is posting on this because, like me, they just don't want to see anything that is graphic and cruel to animals? I can't click on the link; I accidentally saw the photos of puppy farms and still can't get the images out of my head.

I never buy angora products anyway, but clearly there is a market for them sad

Voerendaal Wed 20-Nov-13 20:56:03

I did not watch the video but the article has certainly put me off. I won't be buying angora

MarshaBrady Wed 20-Nov-13 20:57:52

I didn't watch. But can't bear this sort of treatment, so I won't buy it now.

Opalite Wed 20-Nov-13 21:14:03

YANBU, carry on spreading this important message!

CharlieAlphaKiloEcho Wed 20-Nov-13 21:20:25

I will never buy Angora. I had no idea it was so brutal. It's just not needed in this day an age.

So so sad sad

cees Wed 20-Nov-13 21:22:56

MY God that is horrific, pure cruelty sad

happydaze77 Wed 20-Nov-13 21:24:03

Couldn't bring myself to watch the video, I'm shaking just from the text description.
I never knew this.
How sick.

M10s Wed 20-Nov-13 21:28:03

I watched. Thank you for posting Resideria.

I have never knowingly bought an Angora product, but then again, before Resideria post, I've never known to take particular care to avoid buying Angora products.

I wonder if it would add strength to boycott all of any particular manufacturer's products, if some of said manufacturer's products contained Angora farmed and harvested in this way. IYSWIM.

MrsWolowitz Wed 20-Nov-13 21:29:09

I haven't watched but thank you for sharing. flowers

I didn't know how the angora trade worked and now I'm horrified. I won't buy it now.

ColdTeaAgain Wed 20-Nov-13 21:29:54

Anyone able to give a description? I'm not sure I can watch the video as whenever I see things like this it plays on my mind for weeks but I'd like to know what goes on.

Resideria Wed 20-Nov-13 21:48:45

The link actually shows a news article with an embedded link to the video, so you don't have to watch it.
It does say in the report that some stores, e.g. H&M, state that they only sell humanely produced angora.

M10s Wed 20-Nov-13 21:51:08

Hopefully someone else will have described, too, ColdTeaAgain, then I won't feel like the only mean one. I think a description might be worse. I'm sorry.

An Angora rabbit is having it's hair pulled out. All of it. Very quickly and brutally. Literally being ripped off it's body, until it's bald and very, very sore and shocked looking. Oh, and it's tied down and screaming.

Then it's done again 10 weeks later, and again, and so on. Apparently they only survive through this for one or two years.

shock at living through that ten weekly hell for two years.

ColdTeaAgain Wed 20-Nov-13 22:02:20

Thank you M10s, as much as it upsets me, I'd rather know the truth.

I wonder how H&M can know for sure their angora is cruelty free? And how much they actually check up on their supply chain?

issey6cats Wed 20-Nov-13 22:32:29

i am so glad that i am allergic to angora and pure wool so i have never ever bought anything with angora either pure or mixed

Mittensonkittens Wed 20-Nov-13 22:36:42

That's horrific.
How is this even allowed anywhere? Absolutely vile. I can't watch it because it's the sort of thing that keeps me awake in the middle of the night.

GigiDarcy Wed 20-Nov-13 22:41:49

What?? That's horrific sad. Couldn't bear to click but thankyou M10s for describing it even if my mental images have really upset me sad. Will be checking labels and boycotting angora. Is there a list of humane suppliers or do we assume none of it is humane?

ColdTeaAgain Wed 20-Nov-13 22:44:30

If 90% comes from China then I'm just going to avoid anything made with angora in future hmm

gamerchick Wed 20-Nov-13 22:51:09

But people will still happily buy fake uggs made from raccoon dogs judging by some of the threads on here.

Some people like cheap.

Tiptops Wed 20-Nov-13 23:58:05

Haven't clicked the link as it will never leave my mind again, but this sounds awful from the description. Thank you for the message OP I will make 100% sure I never purchase this.

cheerfulweatherforthewedding Thu 21-Nov-13 00:01:49

Thanks for the description M10. I'm not clicking through to the link!

JudyJudgypants Thu 21-Nov-13 03:21:52

I only managed to watch six seconds of the vidio, the screams, I couldn't stand it, those poor defenseless animals, and all for some pointless cheep fashion crap.
I will NEVER buy ANGORA from anywhere.
( thanks for providing the link though, I didn't know anything till I saw it about how its done.)

AgathaF Thu 21-Nov-13 03:49:53

I didn't know angora was produced like that. I can't watch the video, but it sounds horrific.

Do people realise that the feathers in down products (coats, duvets etc) are produced by ripping them out of live birds in a similar way? Again, they wait until the birds have grown new feathers and do it all again.

paxtecum Thu 21-Nov-13 06:56:58

Agatha: I was going to write exactly what you have.
Down is a similiar products produces by farming animals in horrific conditions.
A lot of the padded coats that are so fashionable are full of down.

I never buy anything with angora or down in.

paxtecum Thu 21-Nov-13 07:00:02

Another cruelly produced product is Civet Coffee.
Civets are force fed coffee beans, excrete them and then they are worth a fortune as they have a civet flavour.
We live in a wierd world!

sashh Thu 21-Nov-13 07:59:56

Pax

We do indeed.

I think for some people the cruelty actually adds to the ...... er...... not sure which word to use, but you know what I mean

kali110 Thu 21-Nov-13 09:41:20

Omg no

Slippersandacuppa Thu 21-Nov-13 10:13:57

Awful, the list just goes on and on...wool (particularly Australia where they still practice mulesing - don't google it), dogs skinned when they're still alive in China, live baby turtles sold in key rings, fois gras, Uggs. If I let myselfthink about it too much, I'd never get out of bed sad What are we doing to these poor animals.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Thu 21-Nov-13 10:22:27

Umm, if it affects you some much, go vegan! You don't have to wear or eat animal products....

Tiptops Thu 21-Nov-13 10:54:23

'Umm, if it affects you some much, go vegan! You don't have to wear or eat animal products....'

Why do you assume people aren't already? Even if someone is not vegan they are totally able to be repulsed by animal cruelty. Turning a blind eye because it upsets us doesn't stop the awful way animals are being treated.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Thu 21-Nov-13 11:04:52

Even if someone is not vegan they are totally able to be repulsed by animal cruelty. Turning a blind eye because it upsets us doesn't stop the awful way animals are being treated

I completely agree! I was trying to say that rather than wailing and moaning about it on the internet, do something about it. I also strongly suspect that some on this thread have been shocked and appalled by this example of animal cruelty, but have no idea about the everyday cruelty behind e.g egg production.

bundaberg Thu 21-Nov-13 11:07:29

this is so awful sad
and I didn't realise that they produced down in the same way. I have a lot of down products but I'm not going to buy any more!

it makes me want to cry a bit sad

ElizabethBathory Thu 21-Nov-13 11:12:23

I had no idea about this, so thanks OP. Didn't know about down either - I don't have any down clothes, but what about duvets etc?

I used to buy fluffy angora jumpers all the time in the early 2000s, and there's loads of it about now so I guess it's come back into fashion. I bought one the other day in fact blush

MarshaBrady Thu 21-Nov-13 11:14:21

The down thing is a big issue. Easy to avoid angora but we have many down duvets. Are there any better brands?

Can't bear animal cruelty, seems to be largely ignored.

ColdTeaAgain Thu 21-Nov-13 11:39:55

"Umm, if it affects you some much, go vegan! You don't have to wear or eat animal products...."

What a silly comment, you can still consume animal products and remain ethical. Education is the key. The more awareness there is of the sorts of things that go on, then hopefully these practices will gradually lessen until they cease to exist. Its all about supply and demand. Sadly some people value cheap products over the lives of these poor creatures.

I also didn't know that down was produced in the same way sad I don't own any down duvets and now I never will!

froubylou Thu 21-Nov-13 11:51:13

I can't click on the link. I saw a video on fb a couple of months ago about the fur trade in China. I must admit until I watched that video I sort of thought of wearing fur the same as wearing leather. A personal choice but nothing cruel about it.

The only fur in my life will be that of my dog. And no angora or down either.

The cost of affordable fashion is far too high these days. If its not sweat shops, child labour and factories collapsing it's horrific cruelty to animals.

Foxred10 Thu 21-Nov-13 11:53:52

Not all down is ripped out of live birds - a good deal of it is a by-product of the food industry. John Lewis for example only uses down and feather from ethical sources (by-product). As cruel as some of these practices are, it's important not to throw the baby out with the bath water and assume that all animal products are inherently cruel. Careful, thoughtful sourcing is the responsibility of the consumer, as well as realising that if something is cheap then the production of it was probably damaging to people, animals or both.

The description of the video is bad enough - I don't think I have ever bought angora - but I certainly won't be buying it in the future!

ColdTeaAgain Thu 21-Nov-13 11:56:15

Thank you foxred, thats reassuring to know.

Freddiefrog Thu 21-Nov-13 12:00:27

and Uggs

smallbusiness.yahoo.com/advisor/uggs-uggly-reputation-214515845.html

I can't watch the video, don't think I've ever bought Angora and certainly won't be now

China has terrible standards of animal welfare. That doesn't mean that every single angora producer in the world uses Chinese methods.

FunnyRunner Thu 21-Nov-13 12:02:40

Another person who had no idea how angora was produced shock I always imagined it was like wool on a sheep or something, just trimmed off not ripped out sad

I've never bought any and I never will!

Rooble Thu 21-Nov-13 12:06:01

What's wrong with Uggs? (Appreciate the sheep is slaughtered, but as a meat-eater I don't have an issue with this). Or do you mean Ugg-alikes?

Abra1d Thu 21-Nov-13 12:08:32

Does everyone who produces angora do it this way? I sincerely hope not. Will remind my daughter not to buy angora products. Poor rabbits.

DuckToWater Thu 21-Nov-13 12:09:36

Careful, thoughtful sourcing is the responsibility of the consumer, as well as realising that if something is cheap then the production of it was probably damaging to people, animals or both.

Paying more doesn't mean it is ethical though. Loads of retailers have clothes made in the same factories as Primark, the only difference is they charge four times as much for the same goods.

I think yes, you can think about what you buy as a consumer - up to a point, it's a complete minefield. I read this thread and thought "FFS, something else I can't buy." But the primary responsibilty is with the retail businesses to act ethically.

DuckToWater Thu 21-Nov-13 12:12:31

Surely the Ugg thing also applies to sheepskin coats and leather?

What about man-made fibres produced using tons of natural resources?

You can't win.

Abra1d Thu 21-Nov-13 12:13:50

Have answered my own question--no, they don't.

steeking Thu 21-Nov-13 12:15:04

Also check where your feather duvet comes from. In China the birds are live plucked which is excruciatingly painful.

bundaberg Thu 21-Nov-13 12:17:26

a friend linked me to a statement made by the ugg manufacturers saying that ALL their sheepskin is a byproduct of the meat industry.

which made me wonder how they can possibly get away with charging so much for them hmm

foxred thank you for the heads up on john lewis! my pillows are from there phew but I've had cheap ones in the past and I'll be very wary of where i source that kind of thing from in future.

we actually got wool duvets for the kids which are lovely too, and I am presuming just from sheap that are sheared (or killed for meat I suppose)

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Thu 21-Nov-13 12:17:59

The person who originally posted the ugg article linked to above was unaware that sheepskin is actually sheepskin.... But yes issues with ugg-alikes too.

Rooble Thu 21-Nov-13 12:18:23

Ahh. Have now clicked the UGG link - but still don't understand the issue (though have to admit that all my shoes are leather therefore are all SKIN).

It's also worth noting that PETA are not really a reliable source - they use a lot of shock/horror tactics to try and get their opinion shared widely.

The link wouldn't work for me so I haven't seen the film.

DuckToWater Thu 21-Nov-13 12:19:59

I'm just wary of blanket statements such as "In China...x happens".

It's a massive country. It's like saying "In Europe..."

DuckToWater Thu 21-Nov-13 12:20:51

It's also worth noting that PETA are not really a reliable source - they use a lot of shock/horror tactics to try and get their opinion shared widely.

Indeed, and serve their own ends.

Uggs are made in China, which means that the animals are probably not the best looked after in the world. Celtic & Co (previously Celtic Sheepskin) use British wool, and they are made in Cornwall.

MyMILisfromHELL Thu 21-Nov-13 12:24:17

Horrific

bundaberg Thu 21-Nov-13 12:25:41

i read earlier that actually ugg-alikes are often worse as they're made out of the skin of raccoon dogs which are often skinned alive! ffs

WowOoo Thu 21-Nov-13 12:26:02

The link didn't work for me but I Googled it and found it.

It's horrible. The jumper I'm wearing today contains 19% angora - and I'm repulsed. It wasn't a cheap jumper, but I can find no info about how they source angora. Not going to buy any more.
Is yak OK? Surely they just shear it?

I had no idea about down either. I have a lot of down - coats, duvets and pillows etc. I'm glad to hear that John Lewis uses by product down.

DuckToWater Thu 21-Nov-13 12:26:12

About 3/4 of the things in my house are made in China. Difficult to find a reasonably priced alternative that isn't, in most cases.

I don't have Uggs, but I have a cheap man-made fibre alternative. Probably made by children paid 50p a week and with a carbon footprint as big as this house.

lookatmybutt Thu 21-Nov-13 12:34:00

ItsAllGoingToBeFine - Umm, if it affects you some much, go vegan! You don't have to wear or eat animal products....

I agree with you. It's not a stupid comment. People are happy to bang on about animal welfare for as long as it's convenient to them - it's easy enough to not buy angora or down, but what about everything else?

Pretty much everything you can buy anywhere is exploitative or harmful to animals or humans - and you can also include a lot of medical treatment, cosmetic products, meat and dairy production, fishing... the list goes on. You would really need to go completely self sufficient.

An old acquaintance of mine did - lived in the woods with a collective, made her own tampax. That was until she got a kidney infection and needed hospital treatment, whereupon she was unceremoniously drummed out.

I don't know if they still do, but PETA did believe for a long time that any form of animal ownership is wrong: no livestock, no dogs or cats as pets. When she did still live in a rather naice apartment with these people, the rest of her flatmates refused to feed their cat because it involved touching meat.

Then also PETA do charming things like this:

www.peta.org/blog/cannibalistic-attack-greyhound-bus-prompts-ad/

I believe they released it a couple of days before the victim's funeral.

Don't get me wrong, not all vegetarians/vegans are nutjobs. I believe it should be a well reasoned and thought-out decision that will most certainly involve a large amount of compromise unless you want to live in a tree.

lookatmybutt Thu 21-Nov-13 12:37:50

oops, I mixed up some of my paragraphs there. Sorry for any confusion.

bundaberg Thu 21-Nov-13 12:40:42

why does it have to be all or nothing though?

surely, like everything, we make our decisions on what we can and are able to do?

not buying down/angora/sheepskin is easy for me to do, likewise raising awareness of issues.
I also am vegetarian (after nearly 4 yrs of intolerance-forced-veganism) and I rarely eat eggs or buy milk (when i do it's organic/free range/local). But I am not militant enough to turn down a jelly baby, or a piece of cake!

we all do what we're happy to do, and people are allowed to be shocked and upset by this without wanting to give up milk!

AgathaF Thu 21-Nov-13 12:43:30

I have read, although can't find it now to reference, that there are no guaranteed ethical down products in the UK. One reason for this is that the supply chain is long and complicated, so the very small quantities of ethically produced down almost always get mixed with the massive quantities of non-ethically produced down. M&S have said that they try very hard to source ethically produced down, but for this very reason they are not able to guarantee that their down products are ethical. Exactly the same for John Lewis - they state that they try to only use ethically sourced down, but in actual fact are not able to guarantee it.

There is always an alternative to down products, coats/duvets/pillows or whatever. There is no real need to buy them.

Slippersandacuppa Thu 21-Nov-13 12:52:09

I agree about people being hypocritical. Seeing what goes on and then carrying on regardless while pretending to be upset but it's not hard to make a difference. The attitude that unless you're living in a cave eating berries that have fallen off a bush, you're going to be involved in some sort if animal cruelty is probably true to an extent unfortunately, but that doesn't mean give up and buy/ eat what you want. We eat eggs, but from our own chickens. It's easy to find ethically raised/ sourced food now and just as easy to have a quick look at the leaping bunny website to find cruelty-free products. It means that you may not get the things you want, and that can be a hard shift to make. It depends how important you think it is but I do think that evey decision makes a difference.

lookatmybutt Thu 21-Nov-13 12:55:53

*ColdTeaAgain - What a silly comment, you can still consume animal products and remain ethical. Education is the key. The more awareness there is of the sorts of things that go on, then hopefully these practices will gradually lessen until they cease to exist. Its all about supply and demand. Sadly some people value cheap products over the lives of these poor creatures.

I also didn't know that down was produced in the same way sad I don't own any down duvets and now I never will!*

There are so many things wrong with your post, I don't know where to begin. If you think that buying more expensive products is the solution, then you're living in cloud cuckoo land.

Very few, sometimes big and prestigious, companies even know the reality of what goes on in their factories, how things are sourced, etc. (or at least they pretend they don't).

You're extremely naive.

lookatmybutt Thu 21-Nov-13 13:02:46

Slippersandacuppa -

The voice of reason! Those are some good tips.

DuckToWater Thu 21-Nov-13 13:06:28

There may be an alternative to a down coat, but mine is the best winter coat I've ever had, by a long chalk - warmest and most waterproof.

I don't think it's possible to source a 100% ethical coat that ticks all these boxes.

MarshaBrady Thu 21-Nov-13 13:06:41

It needs to be clearer. I will buy down if it is a by-product.

I'd make more of that as suppliers, if John Lewis do this they should state it clearly. They probably do already, but I'll look for it now.

DuckToWater Thu 21-Nov-13 13:09:30

I also have chickens and only eat their eggs. But that's because they taste nicer than the alternative.

kawaii Thu 21-Nov-13 13:15:54

I feel guilty to have bought a Boden down coat last year.

Anyway I won't again and will avoid Angora too. I haven't bought Merino wool for years due to the cruelty involved in shearing the sheep.

It is very hard to be ethical, I think buy as little as possible is probably the best way!

bundaberg Thu 21-Nov-13 13:17:23

oh no what is cruel about the shearing of merino sheep???

ouryve Thu 21-Nov-13 13:21:17

Not all cashmere is great, either. If it's cheap, it probably includes rabbit or other fur and the goat fur is highly unlikely to come from free range goats, but more likely intensively farmed ones, fed on artificial diets. Mostly in China.

ouryve Thu 21-Nov-13 13:22:15

It's not the shearing, bundaberg - it's the method of cutting away the skin around their backsides to prevent fly strike.

If the alternative to animal products is man made items from petro chemicals, what about all the marine animals harmed in their production? Is a fluffy animal's life worth more than fish?

Retropear Thu 21-Nov-13 13:25:02

It sheds like billy o anyway. I put back a Whitestuff scarf for this very reason,had no idea it was cruel too.

Thanks op.

bundaberg Thu 21-Nov-13 13:26:46

ohh mulesing? i read about that earlier.

again, is that always done? or are there manufacturers that don't do it?

not merino, but ugg claim that none of their sheep are mulesed

SilverApples Thu 21-Nov-13 13:28:43

'If the alternative to animal products is man made items from petro chemicals, what about all the marine animals harmed in their production? Is a fluffy animal's life worth more than fish?'

It's not the life, it's the pain and terror and cruelty involved. confused

SoftSheen Thu 21-Nov-13 13:35:49

worldgonecrazy How are marine animals harmed during production of petrochemicals? Are you thinking of the destruction of the marine floor caused by oil drilling?

ouryve Thu 21-Nov-13 13:44:04

Petrochemicals are a finite resource, anyhow. That's why fracking is such a global concern, at the moment. All the easy to get at oil deposits are almost depleted.

Even the cotton industry is far from spotless. Conditions for workers are horrendous.

It's probably safe to say, in any industry, where manufacturers want lots of it and want it as cheaply as possibly, there's going to be an ethical or environmental cost.

lookatmybutt Thu 21-Nov-13 13:59:57

Softsheen, for starters oil spills cause harm to sea life due to accidents during transportation and production. Also, transportation costs in terms of carbon footprint. Also, also non-renewable and polluting to the environment overall.

Have you been living under a rock or something?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exxon_Valdez_oil_spill

www.mnn.com/earth-matters/wilderness-resources/stories/the-13-largest-oil-spills-in-history

here and here

It's probably safe to say, in any industry, where manufacturers want lots of it and want it as cheaply as possibly, there's going to be an ethical or environmental cost.

Exactly.

I wonder how many people know the true human cost of their cotton and gold? If we looked into any natural material we would find that animals or people are suffering because of our desire to own things. The best we can hope for is that consumers educate themselves about alternatives and lobby the companies that we spend our money with to act in an ethical manner.

steeking Thu 21-Nov-13 15:51:00

Instead of boycotting all these products we should be writing to the companies concerned to ask them where they source their down or angora , and ask them what checks they do to ensure animal welfare is upheld

DM Warning
there's an article on this very subject in the Mail Online.

I'm a hard faced old bat IRL (I've been vegetarian for 33 years so I've seen plenty of those leaflets that do the rounds)

But this?

Turned My Stomach sad angry

tiredoutgran Sat 23-Nov-13 10:43:12

I can't watch but, as has already been mentioned, feathers for feather and down items are collected in the same way. As a huge fan of all things goose (live pet ones) I was horrified to see how this is done and the images have never left me. To see a beautiful bird crying as it scrambled away from the people who had just stripped it bare was heart breaking. I believe this was in China too. I think they have a very different view of animals to us. I will certainly never buy angora product again.

KittensoftPuppydog Sat 23-Nov-13 10:58:57

Thanks for letting me know. Won't buy it now.

Pointeshoes Sat 23-Nov-13 20:18:20

Having recently got two beautiful bunnies I Couldn't watch it. But I'm disgusted , so is my DH. Won't be buying. Makes me so upset and angry when animals are hurt like this. It's sick.
Didn't know about the down either so thank you for the info.

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