to tell adult DD she is not welcome

(185 Posts)
yerase Mon 18-Nov-13 18:13:19

DS has just graduated from uni and is currently a temp for a well known agency placed in the public sector (don't want to say anymore for fear of this being recognised). It is pretty poorly paid and he absolutely hates it. DD graduated from uni three years ago walked straight into a grad scheme has really taken off from there. Everytime she sees him she teases and taunts him about it (I've spoken to her about it before). However yesterday she popped in she took it a stage further and she asked him whether he was looking forward to another week in job paradise and how many cabinets would be filed this week etc.

DS stormed off into his room really upset and he locked himself away for the rest of the evening (until she'd gone). I'm really disgusted at her partly for her obnoxious attitude and I don't feel like I want her visiting if she is going to carry on like this as DS is really unhappy at the moment and can do without this nastiness when he's at home.

MaryShelley Mon 18-Nov-13 18:14:53

Not welcome - bit extreme

But a well placed reminder about bullying behaviour wouldn't go amiss!

NewtRipley Mon 18-Nov-13 18:16:19

I don't think you should go in that strong. I think a quiet word might be in order. I look on with interest at what others with older DCs will say, though. Mine are only 10 and 13

LEMisafucker Mon 18-Nov-13 18:17:48

Have they always goaded each other?

Please don't tell her she is not welcome, she may well take you at your word and you will regret it more than she does.

She clearly feels insecure about things - is your DS ok?

MammaTJ Mon 18-Nov-13 18:18:21

It's hard to tell whether this is normal sibling teasing that your DS is taking too seriously, or real bullying. Only you can tell, as you are there.

I think banning her is a bit extreme, but a telling off and putting her place when she does it is a must.

WorraLiberty Mon 18-Nov-13 18:19:43

I think it's far too extreme

But you do need to have a firm word with her

Does your DS not stick up for himself against her?

RedHelenB Mon 18-Nov-13 18:19:54

Can't he ignore her - he who laughs last & all that! Siblings do tease each other, I'm sure she has weak spots!!

roslet Mon 18-Nov-13 18:21:30

I don't think it is unreasonable to tell her not come round until she can be kind.

carabos Mon 18-Nov-13 18:21:51

I don't think you should tell her she's not welcome, but you could tell her to grow up. Sounds like she's reverting to bullying big sis the minute she sets foot in the door. Sibling rivalry writ large.

DS1 is quite a bit older and "more successful" than DS2. Before he visits he makes sure he's up to date with the latest situation (not that DS2 is unhappy, he isn't) and talks positively and encouragingly to his bro about what he's doing.

Idespair Mon 18-Nov-13 18:23:44

Ask her why she is belittling him?

GrandstandingBlueTit Mon 18-Nov-13 18:24:12

I agree with LEM - this comes across as some sort of real insecurity on her part, like she has something to continuously prove.

Can you say that to her?

Tell her that these comments look like nothing more to you, than insecurity on her part. If she was happy with how things were going for herself, she'd have no need to put other people down.

Maybe there is more to this than meets the eye. Maybe not. But either way, telling her she looks insecure about her job might just hit her where it hurts and shut her up.

helenthemadex Mon 18-Nov-13 18:24:21

why not say to her when she does it 'did you mean to be so nasty'

call her up on it every time she does it, she is old enough to know that this is spiteful and downright unpleasant

I wonder if she is jealous of your ds, maybe she thinks he has an easy life living at home with you while she is supporting herself

NewtRipley Mon 18-Nov-13 18:25:01


Good point

sunbathe Mon 18-Nov-13 18:25:39

Have you asked her why she does it?

TEEurkeyDay Mon 18-Nov-13 18:26:14

"DD you are welcome. Your horrible bullying of your brother is not. If you can't say something nice, say nothing."

She sounds horrible and I'd be pulling her up on it constantly.

And encouraging my son to do the same.

"What's your problem sis? Your dream job a nightmare?"

newgirl Mon 18-Nov-13 18:27:46

Its bad behaviour yes but your response is extreme too

Do you like your daughter much? Does she think you favour yr son as he is there more? Sounds like emotions are running high all over the place

IamInvisible Mon 18-Nov-13 18:28:30

I would say what Tee says.

Don't tell her she's not welcome, but tell her if she comes she's not to be so nasty to her brother. I'd, also, be tempted to tell her to grow up tbh.

Mellowandfruitful Mon 18-Nov-13 18:28:50

Have you intervened so far when she's done this?

yerase Mon 18-Nov-13 18:29:58

I've spoken to her about it in the past but she pays no attention and continues regardless

MrsDeVere Mon 18-Nov-13 18:30:27

We all have a different idea of what our family is like.
You may feel you have been a fair handed parent (and I am not suggesting otherwise)
DD may feel that DS has always been your golden boy and gets away with not working hard, lives at home etc
DS may feel that DD is the clever one, your favourite etc etc.

That is what makes sorting this stuff out complicated.

She is an adult so I think it is best approaching this in an adult way. Speak to her like a grown up AND speak to your son.

He has to deal with this in an adult way. You can't be sorting everything out for them for ever.

If you do it makes it easy for them to carry on. If mum is going to fix things what is their motivation for getting along?

Don't tell she is not welcome. You can tell her that her behaviour is not welcome.

TheCraicDealer Mon 18-Nov-13 18:33:01

She probably sees it as a running joke, and his reactions are fuelling this. Making jokes about someone's awful job isn't mature, but neither is storming off to your room and locking yourself in it until she leaves.

They're what, 24 and 21? You need to let them sort it out between themselves. If you're dying to intervene, maybe just say something positive to her negative comments, like, "well son, we're proud of you for getting something where you're getting decent experience in a professional environment. Please pass the peas". Telling her she's not welcome at home will be like pouring lighter fuel over this flickering ember.

JessicaBeatriceFletcher Mon 18-Nov-13 18:33:45

If you have, as you now tell us, spoken to her about this in the past and she has not stopped her bullying behaviour, I DON'T think you would be unreasonable in telling her she was not welcome until she behaved appropriately towards her brother. It's your house and his home.

wigglesrock Mon 18-Nov-13 18:35:26

Do they not just row & you leave them to it?

If my sister had spoken to me like that - I'd have told her to "fuck off" loudly & frequently. Does your dd feel you encouraged her to move out? Does she feel a bit excluded as you all still live in the same house ?

bouncysmiley Mon 18-Nov-13 18:35:38

Have a serious word and let her know you will mot tolerate this behaviour anymore. If she starts anything in front of you again you need to intervene and get her to stop and apologise. I would not exclude her. I don't think this will help and whatever she's done she needs to feel welcome.

IAlwaysThought Mon 18-Nov-13 18:35:40

Gosh, families are sooo complicated. I wouldn't tell your DD that she isn't welcome but I would call her on it ever time.

She sounds unpleasant and arrogant. Does she do. It in front of other people?

DonkeysDontRideBicycles Mon 18-Nov-13 18:36:14

Have they always been like this together or is is just since the summer?

yerase Mon 18-Nov-13 18:36:23

wigglesrock- No she moved out entirely on her own accord.

yerase Mon 18-Nov-13 18:37:02

DonkeysDontRideBicycles- No they were really close during their teenage years.

Maryz Mon 18-Nov-13 18:41:07

What MrsDeVere says.

You need to talk to her as an adult, and ask her how she intends to carry on. And if she laughs and says she doesn't intend to change then you can consider limiting how often she can visit.

But I wonder does she think she is just "teasing"?

sunbathe Mon 18-Nov-13 18:41:54

I suppose it's possible that she knows he can do better than this job and believes attacking his pride is the way to get him motivated? hmm

What was their relationship like before uni? Did they get along generally, look out for each other?

NewtRipley Mon 18-Nov-13 18:43:27

Strange that of she thought she was just teaching she made no move to go and talk to him. Is that out of character too?

Is it normal for him to storm off?

NewtRipley Mon 18-Nov-13 18:43:52

teasing not teaching

Beastofburden Mon 18-Nov-13 18:44:17

Does she understand that he is miserable and vulnerable? Would that just make her more unkind? I would explain to her that DS needs his family to back him up and help him, in this very difficult job market, not attack.

If she's doing so well, can she keep an eye out for some job openings he could apply for?

bakingaddict Mon 18-Nov-13 18:44:35

I agree with newgirl, there must be a reason why she feels the need to goad him in this way.

Have her achievements never been recognised? People who constantly need to put other people down are seeking validation in some way

CoffeeTea103 Mon 18-Nov-13 18:45:11

Sorry but your dd sounds horrible, she's an adult and should behave like one! I don't think it's being insecure, it's just that she enjoys being mean.

Seeing as they are both adults they should really sort it out. But seriously make it clear to her that she is being really nasty and if she feels like she cants stop then she should visit when she's ready to be an adult.

usualsuspect Mon 18-Nov-13 18:45:58

Your DS need to tell her to STFU stop being a twat.

Why doesn't he stand up to her?

forgetmenots Mon 18-Nov-13 18:46:07

What mrsdevere said.

I think maybe sitting them down together would work, so that they can each voice their issues. You would have to e careful not to interfere too heavily though.

FortyDoorsToNowhere Mon 18-Nov-13 18:47:36

I would spin it around and ask her if she would like it if you went into her home and started goading her guest.

malovitt Mon 18-Nov-13 18:48:09

I wouldn't have her in my house, sorry.

No way would I put up with one of my children behaving like that to another who was thoroughly miserable at work.

It's vile.

WhoNickedMyName Mon 18-Nov-13 18:48:15

Did she know he'd gone off upset? Was she bothered by it?

You need to tell her straight, there's a big difference between a bit of teasing and being a nasty little madam and she crossed the line.

DonkeysDontRideBicycles Mon 18-Nov-13 18:50:13

It is a shame she sees this as an achilles heel so now is pouncing on it every time she sees him. Did he achieve a better degree or was she always scornful about his course choice?

If you can talk to her, comment he is down about his current situation and remind her that the longer she keeps this up the further apart they'll grow. Stress and anxiety over employment and poor prospects can lead to depression so support from loved ones is really important.

yerase Mon 18-Nov-13 18:50:28

When I mentioned it to her yesterday she just rolled her eyes and said he'll bounce back

I would intervene and tell her to pack it in.

But, in the nicest possible way, I think your ds being so upset he locks himself away (if he is a graduate he is also an adult?) he is over reacting too. As a life long public sector worker I can tell him he is in for a lot of this if he sticks with it. He needs a thicker skin and a withering look.

yerase Mon 18-Nov-13 18:51:49

I will concede that my initial thoughts are perhaps clouded by the fact I am deeply worried for him at the moment.

morethanpotatoprints Mon 18-Nov-13 18:52:01

I think her behaviour for a grown woman was despicable, but I wouldn't ban her as others have said, may end up biting you on the bum.
Is it just their usual relationship or do you think there's more to it?
I would be telling her whatever her problem is it upsets you when she talks to her db in this way and you expect better from her now.
I'd also remind her that however old she is you don't take that type of behaviour in your house and she was brought up better than that.
Then ask if she is ok, what is bothering her. Sounds like she may have a problem or unresolved issues if this is not normal behaviour from her.
Good luck. They don't get easier as they grow up, do they?

Maryz Mon 18-Nov-13 18:53:14

You need to not "mention" it.

You need to sit down and tell her you want to have a serious conversation with her. That she may not realise it, but the way she speaks to her brother isn't acceptable.

Ask her would she talk to her friends like that.

I would actually consider telling her that you are worried. If she doesn't live there she may have absolutely no idea how difficult life is for him at the moment.

thebody Mon 18-Nov-13 18:54:55

no would not be allowed in my house..

house rules include being supportive and kind. teasing to a certain level is healthy but your dd is being spiteful.

my ok her grown up kids have been through rough work patches, they support each other, that's the deal.

tell your dd in no uncertain terms to shut up and grow up. also your ds needs to remember he is actually lucky to have a job. my older grad ds was flipping burgers.

IAlwaysThought Mon 18-Nov-13 19:01:11

Is it possible your DD is trying to hurt your feelings rather than your sons. Perhaps she thinks you mollycoddle him or whatever and is resentful of what you do? confused

EverythingInMjiniature Mon 18-Nov-13 19:01:38

She is being vile, and clearly upsetting her brother, which is unacceptable behaviour at any age, and ridiculous for someone in her mid twenties. You are within your right to put your foot down.

However, I do wonder what is causing this. You say they were really close as teens and the bullying is a recent thing and very much job related. I wonder if she feels as if her achievements are being minimised? You talk about how she 'walked into a graduate job' as if it was luck (which it may have been) but she probably feels she worked hard at uni/interview/new job and you may not be recognising this.

I speak as someone with who was in a similar position to your DD a couple of years ago, when DB was having expensive courses paid for, house deposit funded, cash every time he went home. It stirred all sorts of resentments in me from our childhoods where I felt he was effectively 'rewarded' for not working as hard (eg I got a part time job to learn to drive, he didn't, so our parents funded a car and lessons).

With a more mature brain I can see that you need to parent children as individuals, and DB needed more support an encouragement than I did, but at the time it stung.

On the other hand I would never have taken it out on him, and what she says is very spiteful.

HoleyGhost Mon 18-Nov-13 19:01:57

Is he open with you? The great thing about being a temp is that if you don't like where you work, you move on quickly until you find a better fit.

I admit to feeling massively frustrated with a sibling who was in a horrible work situation and did nothing to get out of it besides endless moaning - for 5 years. Looking back I wonder if goading might have helped because being supportive and listening just meant misery was dumped on me for years on end.

Greensleeves Mon 18-Nov-13 19:04:26

I don't think it would be unreasonable to tell her that there are certain ground rules in your home and she needs to decide whether to abide by them or stay away. Her behaviour is spiteful and there is no excuse for it IMO

I have an older sister who could never resist doing this. Comments ranged from "You don't need a degree really, anyone can see you're going to end up as some bloke's brood mare" to "God you're boring, no wonder you slashed your wrists to get someone to pay attention to you"

I haven't seen her for 14 years and I don't plan to. If you don't act to rein in your DD's nasty behaviour now, she could end up having no relationship with her brother at all. Of course you can't control her because she's an adult, but you can set boundaries about behaviour in your home.

DD graduated from uni three years ago walked straight into a grad scheme has really taken off from there.

Just because she "walked into" a grad scheme does not mean she has an easy life. Even your use of the term "walked into" makes me think you feel that your DS somehow deserves it more than DD.

You can be concerned about your DS, but if they used to be close and now your DD is being nasty to him, why aren't you concerned about why she is behaving like this?

NewtRipley Mon 18-Nov-13 19:06:14

I agree wannabe.

yerase Mon 18-Nov-13 19:08:32

wannabedomesticgoddess- I don't feel he deserves anything more than she does

HoleyGhost Mon 18-Nov-13 19:09:45

These days grad schemes are hard to get into and tend to have a high rate of attrition. Getting on them and getting through them is no mean feat.

MortifiedAnyFuckerAdams Mon 18-Nov-13 19:10:36

Just tell her to keep a civil.tongue in her head when she is in your home.

YouTheCat Mon 18-Nov-13 19:13:00

As far as I can see they both work hard but your dd has just been lucky. She needs reminding that this situation might not be forever and she might need a bit of support in the future (not that you'd wish having a crap job on her of course).

She's well old enough to know not to be a spiteful cow.

Me too. I am the one who "walked into" everything but bloody hell did I work my fingers to the bone while DB was goofing around in high school. I suspect there is a lot of back story OP that you might not even be aware of. Why can DS not stand up for himself to his sister and has to run off and hide in his room? There's definitely more going on.

LongTimeLurking Mon 18-Nov-13 19:14:52

Any job is better than no job in the current market. For every fresh graduate who is lucky enough to land their dream job (or at least a good grad scheme) there must be hundreds who have to work sh*tty jobs in order to make ends meet. She should be proud of her brother for graduating and getting A job and putting in the effort to gain experience, not going out of her way to dent his confidence.

I can't help but feel if the sexes or roles were reversed the responses to this topic would be a lot different. There would be far more use of the words 'abusive' and 'bully' and a lot less people trying to understand or justify this unacceptable behaviour.

She sounds like a nasty piece of work and clearly realises her remarks are very upsetting but continues regardless and despite the fact you have already 'had words' with her about it.

I would absolutely tell her to knock it off or don't bother visiting until she can change her ways.

Alisvolatpropiis Mon 18-Nov-13 19:15:41

I can be like this with my brother (who is currently studying), I graduated three years ago.

As MrsD said it is insecurity, my brother is the favoured child. It doesn't matter what my achievements are, which are academically greater at this point, his will always be "better" than mine. I've also been told for years he is "nicer" than me. It isn't true and I know it's not his fault but it fuels insecurity.

I would think twice before telling your daughter she isn't welcome. I would also consider telling your son to stand up for himself rather than intervening yourself.

Salmotrutta Mon 18-Nov-13 19:17:49

I feel for you OP - it's very difficult and I think MrsDeVere makes a good point.

Because DC can be so different we tend to "handle" them differently don't we?

And that can lead to those accusations or feelings of supposed "favouritism".

You are clearly worried about your son - do you think he is depressed?

perplexedpirate Mon 18-Nov-13 19:20:43

If my mother told me I wasn't welcome in her home for teasing my little brother, it would be the last she'd see of me.
Ask yourself if you are ready for that before you say anything to her.

thenightsky Mon 18-Nov-13 19:22:27

Watching this thread with interest as I have a very similar situation slowly developing.

EverythingInMjiniature Mon 18-Nov-13 19:25:12

I would agree longtime, if this was a long-running thing, but from the OPs posts it seems like DD was previously nice and has suddenly started bullying her brother. Even the nicest people can act atrociously sometimes, I think there is merit in finding out why!

Goldmandra Mon 18-Nov-13 19:28:52

What she has said to her brother is completely unacceptable.

However, what is the history between them leading her to delight in his distress?

My younger sister was the golden child in our family. She took full advantage of this throughout our childhood and into adulthood. She was always very subtle, being vicious in private and sweetness and light in front of our parents. I was less calculating in my responses to her and came off worse every time. I learned to let her get away with it because standing up for myself made me the bad guy every time.

Maybe your son has been doling out similar treatment and is getting his just desserts.

In your position I'd explain that the goading won't be tolerated in your house so she needs to either stop or stay away. Make it clear that you would much prefer for her to stop and continue visiting. Don't get into any debates about whether it is justified because you might well be wrong.

Tailtwister Mon 18-Nov-13 19:31:35

YANBU. I wouldn't tolerate such nastiness in my house either. I would tell her that she behaves like an adult and is civil to her brother or she's not welcome. Her choice.

happyhev Mon 18-Nov-13 19:34:43

It seems quite strange for a grown man to run off to his room because his sister teased him. Whilst your daughter was being unkind, do you think your DS could be manipulating you so that you side with him over your daughter. The mature thing for him to have done would have been for him to tell his sister her comments were hurtful and ask her not to do it again.

But you are effectively choosing one of your children over the other.

You do realise that if you tell her she is no longer welcome she will see it as him being favoured? Which is probably what started this whole thing anyway.

He is a graduate, which makes him atleast 21, but he runs off to his room and you step in. That is suggesting to me that you have perhaps done this on more occasions throughout their lives. He's an adult just as she is, why are you fighting his battle?

So he graduated and has a shitty job he hates. Sorry but that's life. He and you need to get over it.

PosyNarker Mon 18-Nov-13 19:40:31

If she's still at home, could she feel jealous? She's doing really well and he's not, but he's getting all the attention?

I know that sounds daft but she's still young, even if adult. Could it be a bit of a 'look at me'?

DioneTheDiabolist Mon 18-Nov-13 19:42:07

If his job is getting him down as much as you say OP he could be sinking into depression (which would explain his running rather than bantering back).

Either way, your DD is upsetting DS and yourself. Don't come out with a ban on visiting but tell her in no uncertain terms that she is not to make fun of his job again.

MrsOakenshield Mon 18-Nov-13 19:43:09

on the face of it, your DD is being vile. But, is there any back story you are unaware of - do they see each other outside the home, did they keep in touch whilst both at uni - she may know things about him that you don't. Maybe she feels he hasn't made much effort and shouldn't be moaning? (I think siblings can be pretty - robust, shall we say - about this kind of thing, more so than perhaps you would be?) Maybe she feels she worked bloody hard and didn't get much recognition but poor little brother is getting all the tea and sympathy? Or, she could just be horrid.

Talk to them both, separately, then see if you can sit them down together. But really, I think you need to not involve yourself - it's only because he's still living at home that you are involved.

Dolcelatte Mon 18-Nov-13 19:48:10

Sorry to say this OP, but DS is clearly a 'Mummy's boy' and you need to cut the apron strings. You are not doing him any favours if you fight his battles for him. He needs to 'man up' and fight his own battles.

These are adults you are talking about, not small children, and they need to work out their relationship for themselves. It is obvious even from reading your post that you prefer DS to DD, and no doubt she realised this a long time ago which is why she moved out. You give her no praise for what she has achieved. Why not? Your love and sympathies are all with DS.

I am shocked that you are even contemplating banning her from the house; if you do, you will just confirm, yet again, that she will always be second best as far as you are concerned. Is that what you want?

DioneTheDiabolist Mon 18-Nov-13 19:59:07

Adults still need support. When I left my abusive Ex and moved back to my hometown, my siblings would make cracks about me living in a council house and being on benefits.sad Then they stopped.

They stopped because my DM spoke to them and made them see just how hurtful they were being. I was in my 30s. I am glad she did and we all agree that her saying something was the best thing to do. It wasn't favouritism (she has previously had to speak to me about the impact of my banter on a sibling), it was love.

yerase Mon 18-Nov-13 19:59:40

I just can't get over the fact that she knows he hates his job and is not particularly happy with where his life is and instead of being constructive she continues to attack him about it making everything worse.

HoleyGhost Mon 18-Nov-13 20:04:27

How has your ds handled teasing elsewhere - work, uni, hobbies? Could his inability to cope with it be making things harder for him at work?

Alisvolatpropiis Mon 18-Nov-13 20:04:35

Because something he says/does really annoys her OP. Perhaps his attitude annoys her and she sees it as him wallowing?

They have a relationship away from the one you see which makes it difficult to say whether it's teasing going too far or outright bullying.

MrsDeVere Mon 18-Nov-13 20:05:56

I know it all seems bizarre but its a well known phenomenon, this reverting to childish behaviour when you return home.

yerase I can understand your upset and wish to just stop the whole thing. Banning her from the house must seem the easiest option right now.
But if this stuff does stem from her feelings of insecurity you will only feed them if you tell her to stay away.

You only have to look on this site for examples of fully grown adults feeling like small children as soon as they set foot inside their parent's houses.

You wait, there will be tons of them the closer we get to Christmas.

You do have a role to play here as a mediator of sorts but you also need to allow them to behave like the adults they are. Don't try and solve this. YOu can't, not without them both playing their parts.

HoleyGhost Mon 18-Nov-13 20:08:22

Is he applying for other jobs? Seeking fulfilment/validation through hobbies?

Maybe she is trying to goad him out of his comfort zone, further from his codependent relationship with you?

He is young, educated, employed and free to do what he likes. He should be enjoying it, not wallowing

needaholidaynow Mon 18-Nov-13 20:10:47

How old is she???

She sounds about 10!

yerase Mon 18-Nov-13 20:15:40

HoleyGhost- He is applying for jobs and he has done his best to keep up with his main hobby which is playing football but he has started suffering spasms in his back after he plays so thats another problem.

MistAllChuckingFrighty Mon 18-Nov-13 20:18:22

Perhaps your daughter is not as happy and settled as you have painted her to be

You also sound like you treat your son like the Golden Child, everything being much harder for him etc

I recognise this because I was scapegoated as the elder sibling too

To be fair, I didn't take it out on the younger one, we both teamed up against it. You do Golden Children no favours at all.

CailinDana Mon 18-Nov-13 20:30:19

What problems does your dd have?

yerase Mon 18-Nov-13 20:37:03

CailinDana- None that I am aware of.

CailinDana Mon 18-Nov-13 20:40:28

Have you asked her recently?

AnandaTimeIn Mon 18-Nov-13 20:41:32

She sounds like a bitch and maybe therefore unhappy.

Why would you be so nasty to your sibling (barring abuse from them). She should be upbeat and encouraging him on his new path through life.

And why does she get to be so toxic on a home visit to her family? If it were my house I wouldn't allow it frankly.

Oh, and your son should realise that having a degree still means you usually start at the bottom of the ladder. Learning how to keep a proper filing system is crucial to running a business smile

You wouldn't throw a toddler into a pool and expect him to swim...

Goldmandra Mon 18-Nov-13 20:42:52

None that I am aware of.

That speaks volumes about your relationship with her.

Don't come wading back to defend yourself and tell us how she is getting everything handed to her on a plate. Reflect on the fact that she doesn't share her challenges with you. Ask yourself why that is.

NewtRipley Mon 18-Nov-13 20:45:38


You are giving quite short answers to some interesting questions. What do you think?

iliketea Mon 18-Nov-13 20:45:59

YABU - discuss it with your daughter, but be prepared to hear what she says rather than just telling her how awful it is for your ds.

I'm the eldest sibling. I am forever hearing how hard things are for my younger siblings - parents rarely acknowledge that I've worked my arse off to get where i am. Quite frankly, I get fed up of zero acknowledgement of the fact that me and DH manage(d) without the free childcare and house deposit that my other siblings get (from my parents).

You say that nothing is going on witg your daughter - maybe she doesn't tell you anything because her achievments are undermined because everything is "much harder" for your DS and it's clear that she knows you think she had it easy.

MistAllChuckingFrighty Mon 18-Nov-13 20:49:10

Sounds similar to my experiences, iliketea

Shit, isn't it ?

LovesBeingHereAgain Mon 18-Nov-13 20:50:19

She thinks you are both over racting as she's no idea how miserable it is to work in a job you hate.

HoleyGhost Mon 18-Nov-13 20:57:32

A job you hate is miserable if you are trapped by having dependents and/or a mortgage. A graduate temp living with parents can always try something else.

freemanbatch Mon 18-Nov-13 21:00:53

As far as my mother was concerned yerase I was lucky to be one of the oldest in my year so I had a chance to be clever enough to get into uni and when I left uni I was lucky to get married to a man who earned good money, I was lucky that I only had to work when I wanted to and I had a easy lazy life while my older sister and younger brother had always struggled with education because they were summer born. They had trouble with relationships because they kept meeting not nice people because of the jobs they were forced to do and they needed my parents to fight their battles for them and to make sure I did as I was told with regard to visiting my parents and being nice to everyone while they did as they pleased.

My life was so much different than they all thought it was because they couldn't see beyond what they wanted to see.

All the time they were treating me like I was lucky and should therefore be nice to my siblings who were having it much harder than me I was actually being abused and raped by my husband and stopped from working or seeing my friends. My family were actively encouraging him by refusing to listen to me as I was so lucky to have such an amazing man looking after me and I had no right at all to be upset by how much they did for my siblings or about the regular pity parties around them that I was forced to take part in.

I am free of my husband now and I have an almost functioning relationship with my mother but the only thing that has made that even close to possible was that she never went as far as telling me I wasn't welcome in the family home, had she done that as well as treating me so differently from my siblings there would have been no way back.

I don't know the reasons behind your DD and DS having the relationship they have but then neither do you and for that reason they should have a relationship outside of you even if, right now, your DS is living in the family home and your DD isn't.

yerase Mon 18-Nov-13 21:01:08

NewtRipley- I don't really know what you're referring to, she is always welcome to talk to me about anything that might be happening in her life be it positive and negative. She regularly tells me the things she is doing and I am proud of her and what she has achieved (she has far outstripped anything I have done). However I do not see any reason why she should openly deride her brother who she knows is not happy with his life thus excerbating the situation.

DontmindifIdo Mon 18-Nov-13 21:01:51

OP - you seem rather dismissive of your DD's work and struggles, you say she "walked" into a graduate job 3 years ago. No, she didn't, no one just 'walked' into a graduate job in 2010/11, she faced stiff competition and will have had to work bloody hard (unless she's very gifted) in order to keep it.

Was your DS equally dismissive at the time? Did he take the piss at all of her working hard, her job, her pushing herself at that time? That doesn't mean she can't be kind now, but if he was in any way taking the piss at her back then, it could be she's gloating a bit due to an attitude of "see, this is what I was trying to avoid". Or does she think he didn't make the most of chances he had? Did she make sure she had a good CV with extra curricular activities and work experience whereas he was lazier? did she try to give him advise he poo-poohed at uni stage? Or did he mouth off about his future career (which has obviously not panned out).

"another week in job paradise" and comments about filling filing cabinets doesn't sound that much of massive insult, seems rather tame to me (normal sibling banter for our family and for DH's), his reaction however, is rather extreme.

I would talk to her like an adult and say that joking aside, you are genuinely worried about your DS's mental health, he's not coping well and could she suggest ways to help him? That you wondered that as her experience is so much more recent, could she talk to him seriously about what he does next career wise.

If she has previously been close to him, and this is out of character, there must be something going on. You seem to see it as her just being a bitch for no good reason, find out the reasons before you destroy your relationship with your DD.

If you ban her from your house, don't expect her to want to come back when you decide to lift your ban.

NewtRipley Mon 18-Nov-13 21:05:28

I meant that people are offering theories and you haven't commented on any of them - up til now. That's all

worridmum Mon 18-Nov-13 21:07:56

Can you hear yourseleves? if it was the DB insulting the DD you would all by saying he is an abusive twat and you should cut him out of your life etc. but because its a DD she must be having problems etc etc or the DB should just man up you guys should be ashamed of yourselfs and some of you are even victim blaming shame on you.

Would you tolerate someone coming to your home and insulting you to the point of you wanting to leave the room (and yes it IS his home)......

I thought not.

deep breath

while banning her is overreacting deffintily have a serous conversation about it and explain that it is not only upseting her brother but youself as well and ask her does she really want to upset her mother etc

DontmindifIdo Mon 18-Nov-13 21:08:13

OP - I think what Newt is getting at is you seem to only be hearing good things from her and that her life is easy, yet all of us who've seen what graduates who've got through grad schemes go through know it's tough. If she's just telling you things you can be proud of, you are getting the 'round robin' level of information about her life.

Your DD will have some problems of her own, they might be big, they might be small, but no one just has achievements. She might be welcome to discuss problems with you, but does she?

HectorVector Mon 18-Nov-13 21:11:15

Hmmmm brothers and sisters do this though. That's just what they do. My brother has a great job (something he's always wanted to do) and he earns a great salary. I do too, I'm doing the job I wanted to do and I earn virtually the same as him. But he belittles the job I do as I do to his. It's banter. However there is a line between joking/banter and bullying. Persistently goading him about his job when he has asked her not too is bullying. But you are the parent, you need to butt out. Your son needs to tell her to piss off, and tell her that she isn't all that and neither is her job, in fact her persistence in belittling his job is rather telling about hers and her confidence. He needs to address this, not you. You have made your opinion clear but to tell her she's not welcome in your home is very extreme.

Goldmandra Mon 18-Nov-13 21:11:18

However I do not see any reason why she should openly deride her brother

All behaviour is communication. Maybe you should try to answer your own question and work out what it is she is trying to communicate.

If she's 'walked into' a lovely graduate job and is doing really well for herself, her social communication skills must be pretty good. She clearly isn't displaying this side of herself in the workplace. Ask yourself very, very carefully why she feels driven to behave as she does around you.

NewtRipley Mon 18-Nov-13 21:11:42


Actually if my son and daughter stopped getting along I wouldn't call either of them abusive without a bit better reason than this.

DontmindifIdo Mon 18-Nov-13 21:12:06

Worriedmum - no, I don't think I would, because again, if the DS had always been supportive and close to the DD, I'd question what had changed/if there was a backstory I didn't know about. If she'd always been a bitch to him, that might be a different matter, but the OP said this is a new thing, or perhaps his reaction to it is a new thing. (And what the OP said the DD said seems within the range of normal sibling insults for our/DH's family, but sulking in your bedroom doesn't seem in the normal range of reactions from a grown man)


The "insults" said by the DD were hardly abusive.

I think this is a case of the DS's and OP's expectations being too high.

If you consider your DDs (and in DS's case his sister's) achievements to be simple things to do, instead of praising her for her hard work, and recognising how hard it was for her to get where she is, then you probably would get depressed at "only" getiing a low paid admin job.

Even graduates must start at the bottom. I know a microbiologist grad who is working in a bakery, and a politics grad who is in a call centre.

worridmum Mon 18-Nov-13 21:17:32

would you guys put up with it happening to yourseleves in your home from your siblings and or partners?

by the sounds of it he is sinking into depression and he possibly needs help and yes I have been there and small things that wouldnt usually upset me did when I was sinking into depression It took the support of all my family to help me pick myself up and move on with my life

I dont know were i would be today if my 'Dear' sister was belitting me aswell....

but because hes male he cant have problems I have fogotten grown man should just keep it all in and deal with it....

I'd be saying "hey dd, you got a good break, your little bro hasn't been so lucky just yet, can't you be encouraging? And what else have you both been up to?" (because work isn't everything - especially in your twenties)

HectorVector Mon 18-Nov-13 21:25:06

But so many siblings do this too each other and these are adult siblings. Your son needs to address it not you. If you are concerned he is sinking into depression it's not just going to be his sister's doing. His sister isn't causing him to sink into depression, his life and circumstances are and that's where you can try and help, instead of blaming and falling out with your daughter over his issues.

DontmindifIdo Mon 18-Nov-13 21:25:35

Wannabe makes a good point, if you haven't really recognised how hard your DD had to work and still work to get to this position and saw that she just "walked into a graduate job" then perhaps your DS has also just assumed that's what happens after you graduate and his expectations are so high compared to the reality.

An admin job in a public sector role, so a job that's good work experience and good for his CV is vastly better opportunity than most graduates will have, most will not get relevant work experience.

It might be worth having a proper talk with him about the future, that this is good for his CV and working on what else he could do with on that, any voluntary work he could add in spare time, any further study, what would he like to do with his life and how can he get to it.

Alisvolatpropiis Mon 18-Nov-13 21:25:50

I have been in the same boat as the op's son. Graduating in 2010 ( same year as her dd) was by no means a barrel of laughs.

So I know that it's miserable working in a job you hate not achieving what you might have hoped.

That is however just life.

MistAllChuckingFrighty Mon 18-Nov-13 21:26:02

Some people will wedge reverse sexism in wherever they can. Pitiful.

I'd be saying "hey dd, you got a good break, your little bro hasn't been so lucky just yet, can't you be encouraging?

Did she get lucky? Lucky?

Or did she work hard?

Is it healthy to pander to the son by saying he just needs to wait on his luck coming in? Or should he be told that if he hates his job, keep applying for others and in the meantime get stuck in and get on with it.

People don't get anywhere with luck these days.

worridmum Mon 18-Nov-13 21:29:57

its only reverse sexism when its not true....... and I never said she had caused it I was suggesting its not helpful for someone who is sinking into depression...

You Do know young males have the highest rate of suicide due to depression as they get ridiculed into not showing their emtions / not standing up for themseleves etc where as if its a women they dont getting ridiculed for showing emtions and the person ridculing is a twat etc its double standards

Alisvolatpropiis Mon 18-Nov-13 21:32:50

It's only reverse sexism when it's not true? Eh?

Morloth Mon 18-Nov-13 21:32:51

I am going to disagree with the majority.

It is his home, no-one walks into my home and treats me rudely/badly and is allowed to stay.

I would pull her up every single time with a 'Cut it out, or get out'.

Maybe not a blanket 'you are not welcome' but each incident treated separately and with the option to either check herself, or leave.

I also agree that if this was an older brother being cruel to a younger sister the tone of this thread would be very different.

You can't just go into someone's house and be rude to them, regardless of your relationship with them.

Viviennemary Mon 18-Nov-13 21:33:42

I must say I was ready to disapprove of this. But this is difficult. I'd tell her that as long as she was in your home she had to behave like a responsible adult. I don't think I'd put up with this constant nastiness. Because you have called her on her behaviour and it hasn't improved.

Maryz Mon 18-Nov-13 21:36:15

I'm amazed at the vitriol aimed at the op - why on earth does everyone assume she is favouring her son, or dismissing her dd's efforts [baffled]

He lives there, he should be able to eat a meal in his own home without being belittled and being called names.

She may well have worked hard. He may well have worked hard too or he may be a lazy git.

Neither of those excuses her speaking to him in such a way that she knocks his confidence or makes him feel a failure shock

Ruffcat Mon 18-Nov-13 21:38:13

Please stuck up for him. It's awful being told you are not as good as your sibling,

Fwiw my brother had pretty much demolished my self esteem with his 'jokes' and in only commenting' bully behaviour that make him feel better about myself.

A few example my degree is a Mickey Mouse one
I don't work as hard/long/in as stressful environment
I should save more money
Should earn more
What am I going to do blah blah blah

It would be nice if someone else told him to stop once in a while.

Tell your dd your proud if her but that you are genuinely worried about ds and she really needs to stop her comments

Worried3 Mon 18-Nov-13 21:39:24

I'm another who thinks you have a serious talk with your daughter and say you find her behaviour unacceptable. You don't tell her she's not welcome- or at least, not unless you want to run the risk of fanning the flames and potentially damage your relationship with your daughter.

I'd also be trying to find out what has caused the change in her attitude to her DB? People rarely suddenly switch behaviour without some cause (even if it's not entirely logical or justified).

I agree with those who've said you do seem very dismissive of your DD, and very over-protective of DS. Perhaps it is just concern for your son given his present circumstances, but again I would be careful this doesn't have longer-term consequences for the sibling relationship or your relationship with DD.

I'd also have a chat with DS and tell him to stand up for himself too- his behaviour seems a bit OTT for a 21 year old.

Then you step back and let them sort it out for themselves. Obviously, if her behaviour gets a lot worse, then you might have to re-visit your strategy.

PresidentServalan Mon 18-Nov-13 21:40:03

Can your DS not stand up for himself though? He will probably work in a environment where people wind each other up and he won't do himself any favours if he reacts like this all the time.

Yes, I think she did get a bit lucky and she could be kinder to her little brother who hasn't yet had such a good opportunity.
There's a good deal of luck in life - it's not all down to hard work.
I've been extremely lucky myself (especially with my DC and my own health and lifestyle as UK resident) but also do not currently have paid employment - but got called for an interview this evening - maybe my luck is on the ascendent smile

DontmindifIdo Mon 18-Nov-13 21:41:55

Maryz - it's the idea that the DD just walked into a great job and has just easily gone from strength to strength without any problems. It might be intentional favouritism or it could be accidentally not realising what her DD has achieved (and therefore not managing the DS's expectations). There does seem to be a surprise that hte DS isn't having the same experience, that what he's doing is somehow a big problem rather than just what most graduates go through for a while. A few months/years of shit jobs until careers get started is really normal now.

Maryz Mon 18-Nov-13 21:42:30

President, what is he meant to do? Call her names and have a humdinger of a row?

That isn't going to do much for family harmony.

It's inevitable that adult sibling revert a bit to childish behaviour when they come home - my older brother still changes the tv station without asking when we are all together - but if you want them to communicate as adults one niggling at the other and encouraging the other to "stand up for himself" isn't going to help.

DioneTheDiabolist Mon 18-Nov-13 21:43:48

Sometimes you don't have the strength to fight back, so you withdraw.sad

Goldmandra Mon 18-Nov-13 21:43:49

*why on earth does everyone assume she is favouring her son, or dismissing her dd's efforts [baffled]

He lives there, he should be able to eat a meal in his own home without being belittled and being called names.*

The OP is right to expect a certain standard of behaviour in her home and tell her DD that the comments are unacceptable. I don't think anyone has suggested it's OK for the taunting to carry on.

What people are suggesting is that the OP looks at the history of the relationships involved her and works out why her DD feels so driven to treat her brother like this.

Working out the reason behind the behaviour will be a much greater help in the long term because that allows you to address the cause, not the symptom.

MistAllChuckingFrighty Mon 18-Nov-13 21:44:06

Nobody is saying it is ok for the dd to behave like this. Just that there might be more background to it than she had hitherto considered (what with being a bit wrapped up in her son's difficulties atm)

I hope this thread does give the OP pause for thought and if she can hand on heart be sure she has treated both her dc exactly the same then that is great

I wish someone had had a word with my parents though.

OddFodd Mon 18-Nov-13 21:44:07

Whether she's been lucky or not isn't the issue. She's being really unkind and spiteful to someone who's going through a hard time.

And I would be bloody ashamed if my child behaved like that so I don't blame the OP for wanting to give her short shrift

Maryz Mon 18-Nov-13 21:45:31

I don't agree Don't.

Things have changed an awful lot in the last couple of years. It is much, much harder now than it was even three years ago.

Any anyway, that is irrelevant. If she has a problem with her mum she should deal with her mum, not take it out on her brother.

Morloth Mon 18-Nov-13 21:46:32

I have 5 siblings.

There are times when we go too far. When that happens I keep my mouth shut and remove myself from the situation.

Out of respect for my mother and her home.

I would never get into a slanging match with them there, in her presence.

Now that I don't live at home anymore I would leave, but previously I would have gone to my room.

It is completely appropriate that he removes himself from the conversation.

Being successful does not give you open slate to be a bitch.

Goldmandra Mon 18-Nov-13 21:48:27

not take it out on her brother.

Maybe it's her brother she has a problem with.

I think the luck element does come into things a bit though, because if she realises she's been fortunate as well as hard working she might well be less entitled and less judgemental towards her brother - and just kinder and more compassionate.

DioneTheDiabolist Mon 18-Nov-13 21:51:56

Then she should be honest with him Gold instead of making snide comments.

Maryz Mon 18-Nov-13 21:53:47

Maybe she does Gold.

But is she is revelling in him having a shit time, and enjoying rubbing his nose it it she isn't a very nice person.

Worried3 Mon 18-Nov-13 21:54:00

Yes, but Odd- nobody has said it ok for her to be horrible to her brother. Clearly, it is not and she should be pulled up for it (preferably by her DB) every time she does it. Obviously, if it gets worse/doesn't stop, the OP may need to think again, but at this point I think banning her DD from her home out-right is unlikely to help the situation. It may have long-term consequences that the OP doesn't intend- although it may feel better to give her "short-shrift" now.

In addition, the OP says they used to be close- wouldn't it be a good idea if she could find out if there was a reason for her change of behaviour? Perhaps there isn't a reason and she is a horrible person generally, or perhaps there is something more to it.

I still think she seems quite dismissive of her daughter. This makes me wonder if this is purely because she's really worried about her DS and annoyed at her DDs behaviour, or the way things are normally?

PresidentServalan Mon 18-Nov-13 21:56:04

Maryz He doesn't have to kick off, but he does need to stand up for himself. And am shock that the OP would consider telling her DD that she is not welcome. I know sibling dynamics are complicate but he is old enough to learn to deal with this type of thing.

Maryz Mon 18-Nov-13 21:56:43

I presume she is dismissive because she is cross.

She can see the harm her dd is doing to her ds. And she knows that at the moment (whatever about the past or future) he is vulnerable, so her instinct is naturally to protect him.

I have a son who has made a mess of his life. My other two are absolutely supportive of him and would never undermine him, belittle him or make him feel worse. Because they both know that there but for the grace of God (as the saying goes) either of them could be.

PresidentServalan Mon 18-Nov-13 21:57:44

And surely their mother getting involved is not going to help them sort themselves out - they are in their 20s they will either get along or they won't - but if he continues to react like this, OP's DD will just do it more to wind him up.

Morloth Mon 18-Nov-13 21:59:52

But it is the Mother's house - she gets to say what behaviour she finds acceptable within it.

It is not the DD's home anymore.

And I would be extremely reluctant to ever tell either of my DC that they weren't welcome at home - it would have to be something a lot more serious than dd being mean to her little brother
- but equally I'd ceratinly be talking with her about it, and not be happy with that behaviour at all

LondonMother Mon 18-Nov-13 22:02:13

There's a lot of projection going on on this thread. People are reading into a very short OP (by AIBU standards) a lot that seems to come from their own experience.

Maryz Mon 18-Nov-13 22:04:07

She's an adult - she shouldn't be trying to wind him up [baffled]

Morloth Mon 18-Nov-13 22:04:16

Not from me, I get on brilliantly with all my siblings, plenty of ribbing obviously.

My younger brother still lives with my Mum. He doesn't make much money and is pretty dependant on her TBH.

I still wouldn't go into their home and belittle him - it isn't acceptable behaviour.

ivykaty44 Mon 18-Nov-13 22:08:56

belittling someone, or anyone is a rather horrid and nasty trait, even worse if this is a brother that once a close relationship was had. I would want to know why one person I loved was treating another I loved equally in such a manner - then walking away and leaving the situation for me to deal with.

I would be very reluctant to tell any of my family they were not welcome in my home, I would though ask my family to possibly think about how their actions effect other members of the family and not just the family member they are attacking.

BoneyBackJefferson Mon 18-Nov-13 22:13:19

My brother was brilliant at this.

It is why I know longer have a relationship with him.
It is abusive and toxic.
The fact that he finds it upsetting should be enough for those on here to give him their support.

lessonsintightropes Mon 18-Nov-13 22:16:57

I had a situation like this with my eldest sister (8 years older than me, left home when I was 10) who works as a very high flying lawyer and constantly belittled and made demeaning comments about my job in a charity. We didn't speak as a result of her constant bullying for about 10 years. Despite a lack of apology for her frankly shit behaviour (understandable in hindsight given the nasty treatment our Mum meted out to her for years, although not that excuseable in an adult) over the last few years we've mended fences. We're never going to be that close though. However I don't think any intervention from parents would have helped - even intercession from our very helpful and much loved middle sister only stopped us from all out warfare - it took the two of us together to work it out.

So OP I can appreciate the fact that you don't like it and can also see the negative impact it's having on your DS. However I think once kids are past 18 they need to sort out their own relationships without interference/involvement from you, which may make the situation (unwittingly) worse. Not nice to watch and totally okay to say not in your house IMO. Not sure if this helps!

ElephantsAndMiasmas Mon 18-Nov-13 22:22:45

When you spoke to her before, did you do it properly, treating her like an adult? E.g. "I know you were only joking when you teased Nick about his work earlier but I'm actually quite worried, he seems really depressed. I'd appreciate it if you could lay off the teasing for a bit and just be a good friend to him as he's finding things quite tough at the moment."

Or was it a more off the cuff thing? I think you need to get her "on side" - I'm sure she doesn't realise that he's upset (rather than being a brat - running off to his room), and would be horrified at the thought of him coming to any harm.

Why exactly are you worried about him? If he's down the best thing to do is get him to the GP. They can be an amazing help and it's as much to do with opening up about your feelings as it is looking for actual treatments.

I do think you sound biased against your daughter though. If they got on well through their teenage years you're probably blowing this spat out of proportion. My mum has been a complete cow to me over the years about my brother, implying that I don't care about him etc etc, when in fact we have a really lovely, healthy adult friendship and I've supported him in all kinds of practical and emotional ways she probably doesn't even know about. All being well your children's relationship with each other will go on for the next 60 years or so, and your role isn't to be the police but to give each of them an insight into the other, and be kind.

MrsOakenshield Mon 18-Nov-13 22:28:20

I'm afraid that I think that the fact that the OP seems to be avoiding questions about her DD is suggestive. She says her DD is welcome to talk to her at any time - that sounds to me like she'll listen, but not ask or initiate.

I do think the DD is being pretty horrible to her brother, but I also think there is probably a good reason for this - she doesn't live at home, she 'teases' her brother, who does, who has his mother on hand to take his side rather than standing up for himself (I'd have told my sister to fuck off if she'd said such a thing to me), it doesn't sound like the OP is really all that interested in her.

I could be misinterpreting it all. But it just sounds like the OP is dismissive of her more, on the face of it, successful child (you absolutely do not walk into a grad scheme, she will have beaten off possible hundreds of other applicants), whilst wrapping the other up in a blanket. Not helpful to either.

MrsOakenshield Mon 18-Nov-13 22:28:50


Goldmandra Mon 18-Nov-13 22:34:44

But is she is revelling in him having a shit time, and enjoying rubbing his nose it it she isn't a very nice person.

Nobody is saying that the comments she's making are acceptable!

Some people are just pointing out that there's clearly some history and another level of communication going on here and that, if the OP really wants to find a good solution, she needs to look to her relationships with each of her children and the history between them rather than just labelling her DD as nasty and threatening to ban her from the house.

yerase Mon 18-Nov-13 23:03:29

I'm definately going to have a talk with her

MistAllChuckingFrighty Mon 18-Nov-13 23:07:50

That's good, Yerase. I hope you can find a way through this that doesn't involve banning your daughter from the house. That couldn't be a long term solution, could it ?

nopanicandverylittleanxiety Mon 18-Nov-13 23:10:12

it is quite extreme that you were considering telling her she isn't welcome. Do you think it is possible she is jealous as she perceives you may favour your son?

ucancallmeamy Tue 19-Nov-13 00:01:16

OK this is a hard start for me. I have just joined this site, (finally after much lurking!) But i really could not ignore this. OP please can you get your DS to a dr. My dear brother at 23 took his own life because of depression. At of 5 siblings he felt he could not turn to any of us for help. (we NEVER EVER belittled him EVER! Quite the opposite!) and i as a younger sister adored him (he is the second youngest).

For now forget what your dd is doing, and get him help please. He sounds very depressed and with society frowning on men being depressed and needing help, it can have major problems with men admitting they are, as we learned with our brother. you need to speak with him but my god DO NOT use the words 'man up' noway!

When i had my first child i grew very depressed and i always kept thinking of my big bro sad If someone had spoken to me - especially someone so close in the family - the way your DD had I don't know if i would be here today! But i have a very supportive family. We have - in a cruel way - learned to support each other even if it is almost forcibly refused by the one in distress!

Please, please get help for your child, depression in some young men is real and should never be brushed aside ever. All the best to you and your family xxx

DioneTheDiabolist Tue 19-Nov-13 00:27:40

Amy welcome to MN and thank you for sharing your heartbreaking tale. It can't have been easy.

Yerase, I think you are doing the right thing by talking to your DD. As I have said, a quiet word from my DM was all it took to bring my siblings and I to sense when we had overstepped the

If your DS's mood is worrying you, please talk to him too. I wish you and your family all the best for the future.

caruthers Tue 19-Nov-13 00:38:02

She sounds nasty vindictive and mean, if she were my Daughter she wouldn't be coming near the house until she'd improved dramatically.

ucancallmeamy Tue 19-Nov-13 01:23:49

Hi Dione and thank you for the welcome. It has been hard and still is and i think it always will be. It was 10 years ago, just after my 18th and the anniversary is coming up sad my older brother still can't even talk much about him really, sometimes its like it happened to another family, i don't know if this makes sense? Its how i cope and i think always have... I mean i know it wasn't. It happened to my family BUT its like i sometimes don't want to believe it and my memory's (as a now 28 year old) are so fuzzy...

but if the OP is seriously worried about her DS (dd comments aside!) it just makes all my memory's resurface and i hope she can give her DS the support he needs first before addressing other issues. Maybe going to the Drs would make DSister think? I wish them all the best x

DioneTheDiabolist Tue 19-Nov-13 01:28:10

Amy, it makes

We have a Bereavement board here. Take a wee look over there and maybe post. It may help you to make sense of your brother's death and your feelings about it.

I look forward to seeing you around and wish you health and healing in the times

ucancallmeamy Tue 19-Nov-13 02:05:49

Thank you so much Dione, I don't know why but i am crying! Something i find hard to do... and it feels good! I do not want to take over this thread so i will leave it here (So sorry OP) and i will look at the bereavement board and hopefully i can be ready to post my loss and what has happened to me (First time i have ever posted about this on a public website!), It is something i (and my therapist at the time) believe i can't fully accept and move on from. I think i appreciate that now. Sorry again for the hijack here x

SoupDragon Tue 19-Nov-13 07:17:47

I'm with the OP. Her DD is behaving like a bitch and there really is no excuse for being like that. Especially towards family. The DD is brushing off the complaints from her mother saying "he'll get over it." Does that sound like someone who has problems of their own or someone who is being bitchy?

If my children behaved like that to each other there would be hell to pay.

I can't believe people are defending the DD and putting all the blame on the OP for somehow favouring her DS.

SoupDragon Tue 19-Nov-13 07:20:13

ucancallmeamy A brave first post smile Sorry to hear about your brother. I agree., head over to the bereavement board - I am pretty sure there are, sdaly, posters with similar experiences as either a parent or sibling.

Most things (sorry, pub psychology at work here!) can be traced back to fear.

What is your DD afraid of, that she is trying to displace? In the current climate, probably her own job security. First in, first out and all that. Is she trying to cover up the nature of her own job? I know when I did a well known grad scheme, was flying off all round the place etc actually the day to day reality was a lot of photocopying and bag carrying for bosses.

Is she maybe underperforming at work? Has she discovered she's not that good at it?

Is she jealous of DS being at home still?

I just think a bit of time invested in trying to find out what's eating her might help avoid something so drastic.

PS I was a complete b*tch to my little brother. I'm at Oxford, you just got a B in your GCSEs...blah blah. Truth is, I was struggling.

Chattymummyhere Tue 19-Nov-13 07:49:04

Got to page 3

I think you should leave it alone with just a comment when it's happening infront of you like "pack it in your pair"

My dh and sil are like this infront of their parents soo many underhand comments but when they are away from mum and dad they get on great she comes on some holidays with us, takes the kids out etc

The thing is infront of the parents is;


Dbro has it so easy, you always help him if he needs it but never me
Dbro is golden child


Dsis has it so easy living at home with no bills and holidays funding by my parents
Dsis gets brought everything she wants
Dsis gets taken out for meals

None of this is spoken infront of the parents though but it's how they both feel about each other so it's like a battle for attention infront of their parents they are 25 and 20

SoupDragon Tue 19-Nov-13 08:04:02

Most things (sorry, pub psychology at work here!) can be traced back to fear.

Some things.

Dolcelatte Tue 19-Nov-13 09:02:51

Amy - thank you for your brave post.

Of course, if there is any indication of depression - as opposed to DS being upset over a sibling spat - then I totally withdraw the suggestion that he should 'man up'. However, I did not pick up that from the OP's post.

Capricorn76 Tue 19-Nov-13 09:10:28

OP, your son sounds like he's falling into depression. Please get him some help as he's at a vulnerable age for males.

My friends brother took his own life aged 19. He was a very popular and should've had a bright future but left college and couldn't find a decent job (this was near the beginning of the recession). He even moved cities to give himself a better chance but it wasn't happening and he slowly started withdrawing and finally killed himself. Nobody could believe how quickly he went from a charismatic sporty charmer to a quiet introvert. He never told anyone how bad he felt.

It's very hard for young people at the moment and many are falling into despair.

Your DD needs to lay off. Some are calling it 'teasing' and saying he should 'man-up' (hate that phrase) but to him it may end up being the straw that breaks the camel's back. Do not let him be bullied in his own home, he appears to be having a hard enough time outside of it.

Retroformica Tue 19-Nov-13 09:18:17

Can you nicely ask her before she comes round next time why she is so horrid to her brother when he is so low? Is there something she is unhappy about because she clearly has issues at the moment? Is she jealous of the support/attention etc you are giving your son. Does she need more attention? Do you do nice activities alone with her? You need to talk in depth about her feelings and needs. The discussion needs to be calm, constructive and loving.

CuChullain Tue 19-Nov-13 09:54:00

OP, I assume your DS is 21 and she is 24/5? If so they seem remarkably immature. Sibblings are always taking the piss out of each other, usually once out of their teens the nature of that piss taking is usually intended as good humoured then malicious. She needs to know that she is taking it too far and he needs to grow a thicker skin rather then run off to his bedroom! Telling her she is not welcome is probably counter productive.

soupdragon I stand corrected! I meant most things in terms of negative behaviours, including bullying...

custardo Tue 19-Nov-13 13:18:38

I'd say " you are being a twat DD, enough."

BoneyBackJefferson Tue 19-Nov-13 18:13:21


anyone who tells someone that they should "man up" needs to be pulled up on it, its an outdated view of how men should just suck it up and get on with, they should hide their feelings and go down pit, you need know if he "mans up" enough he may just slap the sister around a bit, then we can blame him some more.

ShinyBauble Tue 19-Nov-13 22:16:44

I don't think that telling your dd she is unwelcome at the family home would be productive, it could well move the problem from him and her to you and her. Could you take her out for lunch somewhere quiet, and make it very clear to her how worried you are about him, and make her see that she is hurting both her mother and brother?

I wonder if the sector she is working in could influence her behaviour. I've worked in several places where any weakness is picked on relentlessly, especially in male dominated industries. It may be that she has picked that up and doesn't realise she shouldn't carry it into all areas of her life?

yerase Tue 19-Nov-13 23:11:47

Thank you for your responses. Sorry I've not been back today but I've been busy today. I have arranged to go for lunch with DD tomorrow though.

Glad to hear it OP and hope it goes well.

Parts of this thread have reminded me of one of my favourite sayings: The harder I work, the luckier I get.

My heart goes out to those posters sharing their heartbreaking stories. Much love.

yerase Wed 20-Nov-13 19:00:07

I spoke to her today at length and I followed your advice about trying to focus on her and her problems/issues. She was most insistent that there were none and that her life although stressful and difficult at times is the way she wants it to be.

Regarding her brother she thinks that he doesn't have enough fight or tenacity in him and that it is holding him back in life. She said that by jibing at him constantly she wants to "restore his fire" as she is adamant that there is no way that he would have let her speak to him like that 2 years ago and that he has lost something. I told her that I didn't think that it was helpful and although she thinks I'm in denial about it and that it will cost him she said she will lay off him. All in all I think it was a success although I am slightly hmm about the way that she thinks being horrible to another person is helping them move forward.

NewtRipley Wed 20-Nov-13 19:02:52

That sounds more positive.

Maybe she is one of those people who feels a bit helpless in the face of worries about others she loves and gets a bit angry with them? I know a few people like that!

Whatever, I think you've done the right thing in telling her it's not the way to go about it.

Hope things imporve

TheMaryzter Wed 20-Nov-13 19:06:06

I would have thought that the fact that he is letting her, and that he has lost his fire is another sign that he may be depressed.

In which case no amount of sniping or "pull yourself together" attitude is going to help, and it could seriously harm him.

yerase Wed 20-Nov-13 19:10:13

TheMaryzter- Thats my thoughts really

MaryZygon Wed 20-Nov-13 19:12:59

It is difficult, isn't it? ds1 used to knock the stuffing out of dd all the time sad. And you know when you go to these "parenting" courses and they talk to you about helping children with their confidence? I remember sitting through one and thinking "I never knock her, I always tell her she is great" and it was only later talking to my mum that I realised why she felt so inadequate. He only had to walk into a room and she would feel shit.

Luckily mine seem to have grown out of petty sniping.

nauticant Wed 20-Nov-13 19:38:01

Like LondonMother I'm also surprised by the amount of projection going on in this thread.

It's a veritable multiplex of a thread.

intitgrand Wed 20-Nov-13 19:48:13

Your DD is setting herself up for karma to come and bite her on the bottom big time!
I would tell her that this is your house and you will not tolerate this nastiness to her brother.She is welcome to come if she can be civil, and if she can't she can stay away.

MistAllChuckingFrighty Wed 20-Nov-13 19:50:49

Now you can be sure of her motives you can take a harder line with her, and she knows you have drawn a boundary.

That can only be helpful.

I hope it works out for everyone.x

Alisvolatpropiis Wed 20-Nov-13 21:58:48

Well, that conversation was helpful...sort of. At least you know she thought she was helping, rather than just being horrible.

And she now knows her way isn't actually helping and has to stop.

Hopefully she will approach things differently with him going forwards.

Alisvolatpropiis Wed 20-Nov-13 21:59:31

And best of luck to your son op.

I've been in a similar position not too long ago and know it's tough.

SugarMouse1 Thu 21-Nov-13 03:23:49

Tell him one of your dd's weaknesses- she must have at least one.

Tell him to really, really make fun of her looks (unless shes a supermodel)

Call her fat (unless shes stick thin, in which case call her mad and anorexic)

If she doesn't have a boyfriend, tell her men must find her boring and repulsive, if shes ever been dumped/cheated on tell her it was because of how she is- incapable of keeping a man

If her boyfriend has anything wrong with him, tell her she has really low standards so must be a complete slag!

Ask her why she smells of fish?

He needs to fight fire with fire, and I guarantee he will feel loads better and she wont do it again

IAmTheLordOfRedundancy Thu 21-Nov-13 03:43:05

Next time she does it tell her firmly to SHUT UP. No more no less.

SugarMouse1 Thu 21-Nov-13 03:59:00

Or tell him to tell her that she must be thick if shes never heard of the recession; and the effect it is having on people getting jobs

It isn't anything to be ashamed of; plenty of doctors, lawyers, teachers, bankers hate their jobs and are miserable too!

What is the big deal, is she money-obsessed or something?

MrsDeVere Thu 21-Nov-13 07:28:26

Bloody Hell sugar calm down.

OP I am not that surprised she thinks she was helping. She is still young herself. There are plenty of older people who think the best way to help is to give someone a kick up the arse and tell them to stop moping.

Well done for having that talk and I hope things improve for you all.

dozeydoris Thu 21-Nov-13 07:46:34

I would make DD and DS have a heart to heart talk, with you not in hearing distance, not that you are doing anything wrong, just that your presence might make DCs alter their behavior to win your favour or to hide their problems.

If DD made her tactless comments to DS on their own and DS responded honestly, probably by being v upset, DD would get the message, and I would assume be sorry and even want to help him get to a better situation, instead of it coming from you with your twist on it.

You would have to get DS to agree to this. Perhaps DD can ask him for a quiet chat as she is sorry if she annoyed him and take it from there.

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