To point out that it's PACKED lunch and not PACK lunch?

(256 Posts)
ICameOnTheJitney Sun 17-Nov-13 10:06:09

I keep seeing threads on here where people say "Pack lunch" I KNOW this belongs in Pedant's Corner but hey...only people who already know will see it then! grin

I also get irritated by "mash potato"....it's "MASHED potato" ffs.

mrsjay Sun 17-Nov-13 10:07:52

some people call it a pack up took me ages to work out what they were on about confused

ICameOnTheJitney Sun 17-Nov-13 10:09:04

Now pack up I can accept as it's a colloquialism from Scotland I think...anyway...it's a totally different phrase.

Mumof3xx Sun 17-Nov-13 10:10:11

I'm sure this has been done before either that or I dreamt it

mrsjay Sun 17-Nov-13 10:11:21

im scottish we make PACKED lunches up here , I guess language changes and people just use their own words, It is a drawer though and not a draw angry

Greige Sun 17-Nov-13 10:11:43

Its bait where I come from.

SPsDoesntLikeChaffingFishnets Sun 17-Nov-13 10:11:53

I say pack up and mash.

I drop the potato off, is that ok? grin

I have had no reason to type packed lunch though. I don't know if I would type pack or packed.

PerpendicularVince Sun 17-Nov-13 10:11:58

YANBU, I can't stand the terms 'pack lunch' or ' pack up'. Pack up doesn't even make sense in that context.

<Heads back to Pedant's Corner>

usualsuspect Sun 17-Nov-13 10:13:16

Pack up is an acceptable term.

I'm not fussed about pack lunch.

LCHammer Sun 17-Nov-13 10:16:01

I hate 'pack lunch'. And, please, textED for past tense. Yes, I know it's been done before but doing my good deed of the day with educating the masses smile

ICameOnTheJitney Sun 17-Nov-13 10:17:15

I think "pack up" is ok because it makes more sense..."pack lunch" is just thoughtless and poor use of language.

Saying "Mash" is better than saying "Mash Potato".

UnicornsNotRiddenByGrownUps Sun 17-Nov-13 10:18:44

Pack up is not from Scotland! We make packed lunches.

And another thing DRAWER not draw.. This one is so lazy.

MylesKennedysVocalCords Sun 17-Nov-13 10:18:53

some people call it a pack up took me ages to work out what they were on about My friend does this-drives me mad! She also calls a tumble drier just a tumble. I have to restrain myself!

DeepThought Sun 17-Nov-13 10:18:59

4

KepekCrumbs Sun 17-Nov-13 10:19:06

Pack up is a lovely collocation. It makes total sense.

Language changes all the time. Mash potatoes as a noun is as valid as mashed potatoes as an adjective + noun.

Same with pack lunch, though it lacks elegance in my opinion. Which is actually irrelevant.

NotAnotherPackedLunch Sun 17-Nov-13 10:19:34

YANBU
It's definitely packed lunch. grin

mrsjay Sun 17-Nov-13 10:20:03

I admit i have problems with text and texted blush i will say i texted X

SPsDoesntLikeChaffingFishnets Sun 17-Nov-13 10:20:13

Pack lunch is said where I am. I have no issues with it.

SueSueHeck Sun 17-Nov-13 10:20:55

First I've heard 'pack up' being Scottish. hmm We have packed lunches up here.

LondonMother Sun 17-Nov-13 10:22:39

Box set or boxed set? I can see the logic for either version.

usualsuspect Sun 17-Nov-13 10:25:54

I would say box set.

KepekCrumbs Sun 17-Nov-13 10:26:23

They say pack-up in Lincoln.
<helpful>

ICameOnTheJitney Sun 17-Nov-13 10:27:38

MrsJay yes! "So yesterday I text him to ask..." angry and worse "He never text me."

Box Set is not the same as pack lunch. It's a set in a box...so it can be called a box set or a boxed set.

SPsDoesntLikeChaffingFishnets Sun 17-Nov-13 10:28:12

I also say text as in 'i text him back ages ago'

I would say box set

I don't think 'ed is liked around here grin

MySiamese Sun 17-Nov-13 10:28:56

Round here people called it 'snap' instead of packed lunch.. wtf?

ICameOnTheJitney Sun 17-Nov-13 10:29:33

"to text" "have texted" or "has texted". It's past tense SP!

usualsuspect Sun 17-Nov-13 10:31:06

I would say texted ,but it doesn't bother me if people say text.

I love variations in speech and regional accents.

17leftfeet Sun 17-Nov-13 10:31:24

Pack up in Yorkshire

SPsDoesntLikeChaffingFishnets Sun 17-Nov-13 10:31:43

No its 'text' just text. Texted sounds silly grin

I thought pack up was from Lancashire sort of area.

Soldierskittle Sun 17-Nov-13 10:33:32

Yanbu

I also have issues with mash potato

And sausage. You had a sausage or some sausage. Not just sausage

I would say texted as the past tense too.

LondonMother Sun 17-Nov-13 10:33:57

Set of DVDs in a box - so they are boxed. Or they are a box with a set inside.

Lunch in a pack - packed lunch. Or lunch in a pack.

<stirring with a pointy stick>

Soldierskittle Sun 17-Nov-13 10:34:15

Ahem some sausages

Kind of ruined my point there blush

PerpendicularVince Sun 17-Nov-13 10:35:04

I'm from Yorkshire and never heard of it until MN, 17. I'm wondering if there are variations within Yorkshire itself. Like ginnel & snicket.

ilovesooty Sun 17-Nov-13 10:35:23

I'm in Yorkshire. I use the past tense.
I think text instead of texted, pack lunch and mash potato sound lazy and the use of them really sets my teeth on edge.

SPsDoesntLikeChaffingFishnets Sun 17-Nov-13 10:37:10

So 'sausage and chips' is wrong?

I say 'cunt' 'wunt' 'shunt' and 'dint' so I wouldn't say language is a strong point of mine grin

VivaLeBeaver Sun 17-Nov-13 10:37:27

Pack up.

I know some people who call it snap. I used to work with a bloke who did and said loads of people from round him also did.

I've just been reading about this and irregular verbs are getting rarer. All the new verbs seem to be regular and that includes to text.

usualsuspect Sun 17-Nov-13 10:38:58

I would say sausage and chips,to many sss in sausages.

SPsDoesntLikeChaffingFishnets Sun 17-Nov-13 10:39:04

I'm in Yorkshire and pack up is used here. I think it depends where you live.

I live on one side of the city and say ginnel where as my friend lives on the other side and says snicket

MySiamese Sun 17-Nov-13 10:39:44

Why 'snap' though?

Is it because of the sound the box makes when you open or what? Never understood it...

Tulip26 Sun 17-Nov-13 10:40:35

'Take out.' Damn Americanisims drive me mad!

It's take-away (English) or carry-out (Scottish). Bloody take-out, argh!

ilovesooty Sun 17-Nov-13 10:40:38

I see snap and pack up as local dialect but pack lunch as lazy speech.

usualsuspect Sun 17-Nov-13 10:40:55

We would say entry or jitty.

VivaLeBeaver Sun 17-Nov-13 10:41:20

Ah, see someone else has mentioned snap.

I believe it's a mining term. Miners always had their pack up in a box with a strong hinge which snapped shut. Maybe I was having my leg pulled but my colleague said this was to keep the mice out your food. Apparently there's lots of mice down coal mines.

ilovesooty Sun 17-Nov-13 10:42:59

I suspect that the use of irregular verbs is just too much effort for some people. Laziness is just becoming more widespread.

Floggingmolly Sun 17-Nov-13 10:43:37

What are ginnels and snickers, SP? (I had to type ginnel three times, it kept auto correcting to gin sling????)

DuckToWater Sun 17-Nov-13 10:43:43

I quite like "take out" and some other Americanisms. Language is constantly developing.

usualsuspect Sun 17-Nov-13 10:43:56

Nowt wrong with being lazy.

tarantula Sun 17-Nov-13 10:45:15

depends on whether you are using pack as a noun or a verb, doesn't it?

Pack lunch - Lunch in a pack

Packed lunch - Lunch you have packed up.

Both seem fine to me.

MySiamese Sun 17-Nov-13 10:46:20

That explains it. Oh's dad was a miner.

PerpendicularVince Sun 17-Nov-13 10:46:56

I say ginnel as well SP, but my friend a few miles away says snicket.

Molly, they mean a small passageway/ cut through.

WaspsInTheHouse Sun 17-Nov-13 10:48:01

*They say pack-up in Lincoln.
<helpful>*

Not if they're not from Lincoln wink

ilovesooty Sun 17-Nov-13 10:49:04

Being lazy and its acceptability depends on context I suppose. One would hope people would make an effort in job interviews but it must be harder to do so if you have generally lazy speech habits.

Joysmum Sun 17-Nov-13 10:50:47

Doesn't bother me unless is not obvious what is meant in which case I feel a fool.

I remember when my mum relocated to Cheshire from the south coast, we went to the local chippy and I had to ask what a batch was. I received many an incredulous look for that blush

ibbydibby Sun 17-Nov-13 10:50:58

Am surprised no-one has mentioned "piece" ... my MIL (Scottish) would sometimes ask me, when staying at ours, whether I was taking "a piece" "your piece" to work...

WaspsInTheHouse Sun 17-Nov-13 10:51:22

Written language has been foisted upon people with different dialects therefore it doesn't always conform to the spoken word in pronunciation, spelling, or even the word itself.

Now while forums are text based communication they don't have a language gatekeeper/editor before other people read them. So are more of a hybrid between spoken and written language.

tracypenisbeaker Sun 17-Nov-13 10:51:29

I've heard the plural for 'text messages' as being 'textses' many a time on Jeremy Kyle;

'When did I say I was gonna bash your cousin's nan's door in?'

'You're a compulsive liar. I've got the textses to prove it.'

Chesntoots Sun 17-Nov-13 10:52:09

Snap or pack up near me. I'm in South Yorkshire.

MelanieRavenswood Sun 17-Nov-13 10:54:21

"Skim" milk annoys me too - it's "skimmed" milk

Also, when someone says they "marinaded" something - surely it is "marinated"? I may be wrong on this, though

WaspsInTheHouse Sun 17-Nov-13 10:54:21

And another thing DRAWER not draw.. This one is so lazy.

Or non-rhotic.

ilovesooty Sun 17-Nov-13 10:55:24

I think dialect enriches our language. I don't think lazy speech and writing do.

alwaysonmymind Sun 17-Nov-13 10:56:59

My DD came home from school fuming on Friday. The teacher was giving example sentences as they were doing their spelling test. She said "mash potato" and DD wrote mashed, " because that's what the word is mummy, who says mash potato?" Of course DD was wrong. The teacher was looking for mash. DD was not impressed

PerpendicularVince Sun 17-Nov-13 10:57:24

I agree sooty. I find regional differences fascinating, but just cutting ends off words for the sake of it seems a bit odd.

SugarHut Sun 17-Nov-13 10:58:42

The most infuriating one I ever saw was about a month ago when I looked on eBay to see how much I might sell DS' old bedroom furniture for.

I found a similar set listing detailing bed, wardrobe and "chester draws."

Chester. Draws.

I had to email the seller.

hackmum Sun 17-Nov-13 10:59:47

Melanie - "skim milk" seems to be an American thing that is catching on over here. I don't suppose it matters in the scheme of things (and in fact there probably is a case to be made that it's perfectly grammatical) though I always find it faintly irritating. The Guardian do a series called "Your next box set" and every week a guy used to turn up on the online version and complain that it should be "boxed set".

LittleFriendSusan Sun 17-Nov-13 11:02:16

Pack-up or packed lunch here (N Lincs) - agree that pack lunch is just wrong! And everyone at work calls their 10am break 'snap', or 'snap break', though it's not a term I'd heard until I started working here (perhaps a steel industry th

LittleFriendSusan Sun 17-Nov-13 11:03:43

Bollocks... that was steel industry 'thing'.

I say snicket (or ten-foot!) and either mash or mashed potato...

SPsDoesntLikeChaffingFishnets Sun 17-Nov-13 11:04:26

I say 'skimmed'.

I don't find language annoying or have urges to correct grammar. I care very little

jellycake Sun 17-Nov-13 11:05:40

I read the OP and thought 'I always say packed' then i have just re-read a post that I have written and I put 'pack!' blush

ilovesooty Sun 17-Nov-13 11:06:55

I wouldn't be ill mannered enough to correct someone's lazy speech but I notice and I do care.

SPsDoesntLikeChaffingFishnets Sun 17-Nov-13 11:12:20

Sooty If someone said pack lunch while.speaking to you or something similar would you be correcting them in your head? grin I know someone who does this

My nanna tries correcting me, while by correcting I mean wants me to speak with her Irish accent

WaspsInTheHouse Sun 17-Nov-13 11:17:23

If I wrote 'packed lunch' as I speak it, it would be 'pack lunch'. However, I don't actually say pack lunch as that would involve a hard 'k' sound. It's actually a softer k and a sound after it that can probably only be described by linguistic symbols. This is my accent, my accent which has evolved from a different dialect.

Online chat is different to speech, but also different to the written word as we're taught to communicate it.

It's all very fascinating really.

As these threads usually go a bunch of people with accents of their own come along and make judgment calls about people with different accents and pronunciation usually based around being "lazy" or "thick".

ICameOnTheJitney Sun 17-Nov-13 11:18:27

Always shock I'd be in there and complaining. Go in! Tell that teacher she's WRONG!

ilovesooty Sun 17-Nov-13 11:19:20

I wouldn't say anything but yes I suppose I would be sort of correcting them in my head. I couldn't just not notice and we all form judgements even if we don't voice them.

KepekCrumbs Sun 17-Nov-13 11:23:31

But language does change. It always has. And every generation has old gimmers who complain as if every English word we write and speak was carved in the Rosetta Stone for eternity.

ICameOnTheJitney Sun 17-Nov-13 11:25:42

Wasps I agree....but I have a thick Northern accent and am very working class. I notice that when I say "packed lunch" it sounds as you describe....almost like "pack lunch" but not quite....there's a subtle difference.

What gets me is all the people who clearly mishear this...and all their life, grow up thinking it's "pack"

What about people who say "Chimbley" for chimney! ??? shock and worse..."Moustosh" for moustache!?

ICameOnTheJitney Sun 17-Nov-13 11:26:39

Kepek yes, yes...of course language evolves but it must not evolve nonsensically!

KepekCrumbs Sun 17-Nov-13 11:27:10

Surely it's about the art of succinct communication of meaning. As long as that's happening -fine. It's vagueness and waffle which annoys me.

ICameOnTheJitney Sun 17-Nov-13 11:28:00

Sitting here now...picking my accent apart. I notice that people with an "RP" accent say "Chick-un" and I say "Chick-in" and they also say "Saus-uge" and I say "Saus-idge" blush

ilovesooty Sun 17-Nov-13 11:29:08

So Kepek anyone who values accuracy in speech and writing is an old gimmer?

KepekCrumbs Sun 17-Nov-13 11:29:20

But it's not nonsensical! Pack lunch makes sense. And it's written how ir sounds. I don't see the problem with packed lunch evolving into pack lunch.

SPsDoesntLikeChaffingFishnets Sun 17-Nov-13 11:30:14

ICame Where are you from? I say the same, the others sound strange.

ICameOnTheJitney Sun 17-Nov-13 11:32:24

Kepek you can't disregard the tenses! It's BEEN packed!

SP I am from the North West of England.

Sandiacre Sun 17-Nov-13 11:32:41

Tis nammet really, bloomin overners.

BearsBeetsBattlestarGalactica Sun 17-Nov-13 11:33:54

MelanieRavenswood

You are correct. They should be saying 'marinated'.

Marinade - noun
Marinate - verb

KepekCrumbs Sun 17-Nov-13 11:34:17

I agree with the tense thing. But that's not the way it's evolved. It's become a compound noun, not a noun and an adjective. The packed bit of packed lunch is no longer a verb

KepekCrumbs Sun 17-Nov-13 11:36:57

Sooty not at all. And I mean old gimmer in a friendly way. Maybe we need old gimmers to prevent change from happening too quickly but it will happen and as long as meaning is succinct that's fine in my opinion. Otherwise we'd still be talking like characters from Chaucer.

KepekCrumbs Sun 17-Nov-13 11:38:04

Sorry I mean packed lunch = adjective and noun.
Pack lunch = compound noun

KepekCrumbs Sun 17-Nov-13 11:39:12

'Yesterday I pack my son a lunch.' Now that would be wrong.

AlwaysInBed Sun 17-Nov-13 11:39:29

I say pack lunch.

Even our schools have pack lunch written down etc;

I also say mash. Not even a potato.

sad

SPsDoesntLikeChaffingFishnets Sun 17-Nov-13 11:40:34

Always No need for sad face. I ignore the potato bit as well grin

TheHeadlessLadyofCannock Sun 17-Nov-13 11:41:01

Pack lunch annoys me, but I like snap and pack-up.

I hate people using 'text' as the past tense. 'I text him yesterday'. NO YOU DIDN'T YOU TEXTED HIM; it's not that hard to say.

How do you say moustache?

Greythorne Sun 17-Nov-13 11:41:44

Packed lunch.
I texted him.
Sausidge.
Garridge (for garage).
Mashed potato.

Also from NW. South Ribble to get specific ;)

KepekCrumbs Sun 17-Nov-13 11:43:59

The garridge\garahrge thing is a red herring! That's just accent not language!

KepekCrumbs Sun 17-Nov-13 11:45:36

Text as a verb is so new, I'm not sure if it's bexoming irregular or not. If it devlops like 'put' for example, saying I text my brother last week isn't wrong.

SPsDoesntLikeChaffingFishnets Sun 17-Nov-13 11:45:56

Mus-tash

^ that's how I would say it.

Texted sounds strange. I dont and wont say it. It is always 'i text him' as I did text him.

LinghamStyle Sun 17-Nov-13 11:46:25

I say "piece' and morning snack is "play piece".

In Leeds it was always a "pack up" but I still said piece grin

KepekCrumbs Sun 17-Nov-13 11:46:26

So who decides if a new verb is regular or not?

I love language!

AlwaysInBed Sun 17-Nov-13 11:49:05

Sausidge.

Text.

Garridge.

Mus-stahsh.

From London.

BuntyPenfold Sun 17-Nov-13 11:50:23

I agree with Sandiacre.

To me a snicket is the poky-out piece that locks into the latch on a gate.

ilovesooty Sun 17-Nov-13 11:50:54

I don't know who decides but text used in the past tense is grammatically incorrect as I see it and it grates on me every time I
see or hear it.

Lonelygran Sun 17-Nov-13 11:52:15

But accent can create some of these mistakes. The people who write draw instead of drawer do so because that's how they pronounce it. Here in Scotland drawer is said with a r at the end so we don't make that mistake. We make plenty of our own of course.
Similarly Scots tend to be bemused by the Southern English pronunciation of "pour", "paw" and "poor" which all sound the same in SE England, and all sound very different in Scottish English.

Lonelygran Sun 17-Nov-13 11:53:12

AN r

Admiraltea Sun 17-Nov-13 11:53:15

Pack up here in East Yorkshire...also quite common to hear "break-fast" as in the true meaning of the term...as a pedantically inclined person they're IMO more accurate than my southern pronunciation. Have also heard ward-robe broken correctly. It isn't a war-drobe!

WaspsInTheHouse Sun 17-Nov-13 11:53:29

ICameOnTheJitney I'm working class Yorkshire.

I'm trying to resurrect "spice" for sweets in my house to my non-Yorkshire children!

I say for past tense I say text' - yep, it has a silent "ed"

SPsDoesntLikeChaffingFishnets Sun 17-Nov-13 11:57:09

Admiral I'm in the west of Yorkshire and say breakfast as brek-fust and war-drobe.

KepekCrumbs Sun 17-Nov-13 12:00:20

But Sooty, it's only grammatically incorrect if we assume that it's a regular verb. Otherwise we'd say 'she put-ed the kettle on' was grammatically correct.

ilovesooty Sun 17-Nov-13 12:01:59

I assume text is a regular verb. Using text in the past tense just sounds lazy and uneducated to me.

SPsDoesntLikeChaffingFishnets Sun 17-Nov-13 12:02:20

Kepek I'd say 'she put kettle on' grin

notso Sun 17-Nov-13 12:02:57

When I was little and lived in East Yorkshire it was packing up or packers. Now I live in North Wales and DH and his family say snappin' which is odd, but they think packing up is wrong.
They also say butty jam instead of jam sandwich and dinner for lunch and tea for dinner, it gets bloody confusing when MIL asks if we've had dinner at about 4 pm grin

ilovesooty Sun 17-Nov-13 12:03:28

After all put takes a double t in putting. Text doesn't so it's not conjugated in the same way.

SPsDoesntLikeChaffingFishnets Sun 17-Nov-13 12:04:18

Well everyone I know must be lazy and uneducated then.

KepekCrumbs Sun 17-Nov-13 12:04:59

But you can't assume because that's what you feel. Although you have every right to feel like that. Ultimately popular choice will prevail whether that's text or texted. I suspect texted will come out on top as the full OED usually uses written references to explore word meaning from usage.

KepekCrumbs Sun 17-Nov-13 12:06:16

I mean validate rather than explore.

KepekCrumbs Sun 17-Nov-13 12:08:12

It makes sense to be lazy about language if it's more efficient. I would call it economy of language. But beauty of language is important too; however that's about taste rather than correctness.

ilovesooty Sun 17-Nov-13 12:08:17

I said it sounds lazy and uneducated. I assume people who speak like this to be lazy. Unfortunately I know some of them are not uneducated but to me they sound as though they are.

Tee2072 Sun 17-Nov-13 12:08:48

Perhaps they are referring to the dance step and not the food?

"I can mash potato, mash potato
Do the twist, I can do the twist
So tell me baby
Can you do it like this?

grin

SPsDoesntLikeChaffingFishnets Sun 17-Nov-13 12:09:57

Tee Cheers! I now have that song in my head. grin

usualsuspect Sun 17-Nov-13 12:10:12

Where do you stand on mash spuds?

WaspsInTheHouse Sun 17-Nov-13 12:11:06

I assume text is a regular verb. Using text in the past tense just sounds lazy and uneducated to me.

And you've never explored why you think this way? Thought about what your biases are?

SPsDoesntLikeChaffingFishnets Sun 17-Nov-13 12:12:54

usual or mash tateys

Sandiacre Sun 17-Nov-13 12:12:57

Ah Bunty aroight my lover! you aving a gurt Sunday roast? I'm off out with my nippers later.

I feel homesick now.

KepekCrumbs Sun 17-Nov-13 12:12:58

Then that says more about you Sooty than actually about them. Which is fine- I've read your posts here and there for around ten years now and I know you to be a person of high integrity and intelligence; compassionate and good. So please don't take that as an insult because it's not meant to be.

ilovesooty Sun 17-Nov-13 12:16:26

Cheers Kapek that's lovely. I suppose it's purely and simply because I can't see anything grammatically which would cause me to think the verb is irregular.

ilovesooty Sun 17-Nov-13 12:18:38

Kepek Sorry blush

KepekCrumbs Sun 17-Nov-13 12:20:42

I think it's more to do with sound than letters. Take sexed as in 'I sexed the cat's new kittens ans they're all female'.

That sounds like text when you say it although sexed has an obvious regular past tense spelling.

Tee2072 Sun 17-Nov-13 12:21:59

Me too SP.

Do you looove, do you love me...

grin

KepekCrumbs Sun 17-Nov-13 12:22:10

Don't say sorry!! Your opinions are totally valid. Who's to say which of us is right anyway? David Crystal would say we both were!

SPsDoesntLikeChaffingFishnets Sun 17-Nov-13 12:34:48

Now that I can dance.........

Its going to take ages for this song to bugger off out of my head grin

SharpLily Sun 17-Nov-13 12:41:08

I agree with Sooty, but in my case it's because the people I know who say text for texted also tend to say 'you was', 'we was' 'I seen', 'been as' etc. To me, that's lazy and uneducated. If they don't know how to conjugate the traditional verbs, I'd say the chances are slim that they'll be able to handle a new one.

I never heard pack up or snap before joining Mumsnet. If someone had talked to me about a pack up would genuinely have had no idea what they were taking about.

KepekCrumbs Sun 17-Nov-13 12:49:30

I can't see it as lazy to say, for example, we was, because it's no easier than saying we were.

It's surely about how people spoke around you at home as you grew up. It's your 'normal'. I do think it's important to teach children the formal or correct - if you like - way of speaking because it would otherwise limit their opportunities, but it doesn't annoy me to hear we done or you was any more than someone with a foreign accent or typical english second language grammatical errors would annoy me. I.e. not at all. But I strive to teach both groups in my London school standard English.

TheHeadlessLadyofCannock Sun 17-Nov-13 12:50:36

Mus-tash.

Thanks!

BuntyPenfold Sun 17-Nov-13 12:56:03

Gurt uld lump a beef ere, Sandiacre.

SharpLily Sun 17-Nov-13 12:58:05

But on that basis, Kepek, in the house my friend grew up in it was normal not to wash and to wear underwear five times then turn it inside out for another five days before changing it (yuk). The fact that something is normal doesn't make it right. That is not how those verbs are conjugated in English - it's not accent, nor dialogue, nor a product of an environment. It's quite simply wrong.

jellyboatsandpirates Sun 17-Nov-13 13:03:19

Yorkshire here, and I've always said pack up. Although depends which bit you're from as where I am now in Yorkshire packed lunch is also used too!
Don't know if it's already been answered, but a snicket and a ginnel is a type of alleyway.
I grew up with snicket, but a few miles down the road in the next town ginnel was the most commonly used word.

ivykaty44 Sun 17-Nov-13 13:03:49

We call it snap - much easier name for a lunch that is taken to work or school.

KepekCrumbs Sun 17-Nov-13 13:16:39

It's colloquial. Definitely to London. To some in London. It's a cultural way of speaking. Language is not set in stone. Grammar isn't. Vocab isnt. It just isn't. There may be a standard way but there are also norms for different groups culturally. If meaning is coveyed and people know when to use appropriate forms, I fail to see what all the pearl clutching is about.

KepekCrumbs Sun 17-Nov-13 13:18:14

And Sooty apologies, I have just realised you were saying sorry for spelling my name incorrectly.

WaspsInTheHouse Sun 17-Nov-13 13:18:25

British Library page on Grammatical variation

"One of the most common differences between dialects is the way in which past tenses are formed."

"We should avoid the temptation to draw misguided conclusions about what is ‘correct’ and ‘incorrect’ grammar. The northern and southern dialect patterns are more regular than Standard English"

Wibblypiglikesbananas Sun 17-Nov-13 13:20:35

I don't think 'skim milk' is an Americanism. Here it's all 0%, 2%, half and half (half milk, half cream)...

I grew up in Yorkshire and it was always packed lunch.

We had snickets but my gran in Lancashire had ginnels.

WaspsInTheHouse Sun 17-Nov-13 13:22:59

That is not how those verbs are conjugated in English - it's not accent, nor dialogue, nor a product of an environment. It's quite simply wrong.

The assumption here is wrong.

Language is complex.

The use of language to label other people as outsiders, ill educated, thick, lazy, or, in the underwear washing example, dirty, is not complex, it is merely elitism.

WaspsInTheHouse Sun 17-Nov-13 13:23:55

Oh and there's American bingo. Any differences must be put down to the influence of "America" which is naturally inferior hmm

WaspsInTheHouse Sun 17-Nov-13 13:27:08

And let's not forget Standard English has wiped out a plural "you" which thankfully is alive and well in some dialects e.g youse. Very useful word that.

KepekCrumbs Sun 17-Nov-13 13:33:30

Wasps, true and pertinent points.

SharpLily Sun 17-Nov-13 13:35:05

Problems arise though when speaking to non-native speakers - if conjugating incorrectly is fine, why are foreigners taught to speak and understand 'correct' English. My mother tends to be very whimsical about how she conjugates her verbs but since living abroad she's realised how much easier it is to communicate with her neighbours if she uses standard English.

I would also argue that 'we was' and 'I done' sound fucking ugly, but I realise it's hard to defend that point of view grin.

While I accept that language evolves, grammar developed norms for a reason, which was to help people understand. In the same way that cooking ingredients add up to a final product and bread without yeast is flat, the perfect tense without an auxiliary verb just, well, isn't. It's flat bread.

Tee2072 Sun 17-Nov-13 13:35:54

Skim milk is what I called it growing up in America in New England.

My friends in the South grew up calling it 0% milk.

I think my West Coast friends also called it Skim milk.

Saying 'it's an Americanism' is Xenophobic and wrong.

KepekCrumbs Sun 17-Nov-13 13:39:04

Many cultures eat flat bread. Flat breads are lovely. Those grammatical structures may be ugly to you but to others they are the lyrical offerings of mum soothing them when they grazed a knee.

Opinion and fact. Don't mix them up.

nennypops Sun 17-Nov-13 13:40:39

The one I hate is when people write that something or someone is bias. It's biasED, for goodness sake.

I don't get why people seem suddenly to have this difficulty with putting "ed" where it's needed on the end of a word. What is so hard about writing packed, texted, biased? Especially when the alternative is so obviously wrong.

Tee2072 Sun 17-Nov-13 13:42:58

Well, unless they are talking about bias cut fabric.

Glad to help.

grin

SharpLily Sun 17-Nov-13 13:43:50

grin I didn't mean to slag off flat bread - I'm very fond of it but it's not suitable for certain situations. Sometimes you feel like a chunky doorstop rather than a wrap.

Opinion and fact, well I'd argue it's a bit of both really. I stand by the fact that grammar rules exist for a reason, which is comprehension. It's easy to notice the difference when learning and speaking other languages.

SPsDoesntLikeChaffingFishnets Sun 17-Nov-13 13:44:02

Nenny Where I am most people say 'text' 'pack'. It could be a regional thing. Texted sounds strange to me

ilovesooty Sun 17-Nov-13 13:44:29

Interesting article there Wasps

I've heard text in the past tense used by people from all over the country so I don't
think of it as regional use.

SharpLily Sun 17-Nov-13 13:45:05

Especially when the alternative is so obviously wrong.

Apparently not. Apparently that's an elitist attitude, don't you know...

SPsDoesntLikeChaffingFishnets Sun 17-Nov-13 13:45:40

I would say 'you shunta text him'

Which translates to "you shouldn't have texted him'

I cant say much about grammar etc when I tall like that grin

ilovesooty Sun 17-Nov-13 13:47:30

SP I think you are in West Yorkshire? I honestly haven't heard it any more here than anywhere else. The only people I know who use text like that are in the North West of England and near London respectively.

nennypops Sun 17-Nov-13 13:48:30

I say for past tense I say text' - yep, it has a silent "ed"

But that would only work if the present tense is "tex". Which it obviously isn't, not least because you don't say "I am texing".

The standing assumption in grammar is that any new verb formation is regular. There are historical reasons for irregular verbs being irregular, none of which apply to "text". Think, for example, of "hand" as a verb. You don't say "X hand the plate to Y" when you mean X handed it, even though it has a "d" on the end.

SharpLily Sun 17-Nov-13 13:49:55

you don't say "I am texing"

I know people who do sad.

nennypops Sun 17-Nov-13 13:50:18

Well, unless they are talking about bias cut fabric.

Glad to help.

No, that isn't an exception to the rule, because it's fabric cut on the bias - neither the cut nor the fabric is biased.

usualsuspect Sun 17-Nov-13 13:51:02

I miss words out not just ed all the time.

I would say 'I'm going shop' instead of 'I'm going to the shop'.Why use 5 words when 3 will do. grin

ilovesooty Sun 17-Nov-13 13:51:39

I've been thinking of verbs ending in a t and preceded by a consonant. For example, surely it's accepted that the past tense of impact is impacted? No one would say 'it impact' in the past tense.

sashh Sun 17-Nov-13 13:51:42

Why 'snap' though?

Because that's what it is, your snap. Or bait. Or butties. Or packing up. Or pack up. Or ............ bento.

Can you tell I've moved around a bit.

SPsDoesntLikeChaffingFishnets Sun 17-Nov-13 13:52:00

I think I say 'texing'

I think I drop t's off the end of words

usualsuspect Sun 17-Nov-13 13:53:21

I say tex too.

I would also say texing.

SPsDoesntLikeChaffingFishnets Sun 17-Nov-13 13:53:52

Usual I'd say 'Am of t'shop'

Exactly as the queen would say

WaspsInTheHouse Sun 17-Nov-13 13:54:20

SharpLily There's a difference between right v. wrong & right v. thick, lazy, dirty etc.

usualsuspect Sun 17-Nov-13 13:55:16

We is common,SP.

SharpLily Sun 17-Nov-13 13:58:33

Er, I didn't call people who don't conjugate their verbs correctly dirty, Wasps. Not at any point.

WaspsInTheHouse Sun 17-Nov-13 13:59:07

*I say for past tense I say text' - yep, it has a silent "ed"

But that would only work if the present tense is "tex". Which it obviously isn't, not least because you don't say "I am texing".*

Why? the ' signifies the silent ed. I haven't used a t as an irregular ending.

WaspsInTheHouse Sun 17-Nov-13 14:02:17

Sharp Lily Oh, let me amend that then. It's different to right v. people who haven't progressed far enough to have learnt to wash their underwear on a more frequent basis so they're not filthy.

I still believe there may be a little more of elitism in that than "wrong"

SharpLily Sun 17-Nov-13 14:07:29

Did you not read the post you're talking about? The lack of washing was nothing to do with grammar. I didn't even mention how the girl conjugated her verbs. I was making the point that something becoming common practice doesn't make it right - as in (and I know this isn't the appropriate place to bring up such a serious subject, but clearly my more lighthearted analogy fell flat so I'm using a sledgehammer to crack a nut) FGM is common practice in certain cultures, but that doesn't make it right.

For what it's worth, the little girl I mentioned was very sweet and I had no objection to her smell, but I objected to her parents' cruelty in setting her up to be bullied at school as a result of their poor hygiene.

SPsDoesntLikeChaffingFishnets Sun 17-Nov-13 14:12:26

I just can't get worked up about language or how people talk.

KepekCrumbs Sun 17-Nov-13 14:13:27

Oh for goodness sake. I love a good analogy as much as the next person but that is not remotely a workable one in this context.

alexpolistigers Sun 17-Nov-13 14:14:48

I have to agree with those saying that language evolves and adapts.

So what if lots of verbs form their past tenses with the addition of -ed? There are also loads that don't - and who gets to decide which is right and which is wrong?

Perhaps it just means that these words are in the process of evolving, and "text" will be a perfectly acceptable past tense, and "pack lunch" an ordinary compound noun.

And so what if something happens to be an Americanism?? I agree that some things are, but does it matter? It doesn't mean that they should for all time be restricted to one area of the English speaking world! If British speakers are now using them, then they have become part of British English too. After all, how long does a word have to have been used in order for it to be considered acceptable? Is there some kind of official standard length of time? Of course not.

alexpolistigers Sun 17-Nov-13 14:15:24

And just to cut it short, I agree with a lot of what KepekCrumbs is saying!

nennypops Sun 17-Nov-13 14:18:38

Why? the ' signifies the silent ed. I haven't used a t as an irregular ending.

Why? In what other context does an apostrophe mark stand for "ed"? Do you write "I walk' to the shops" or "My family travell' to London yesterday"?

ilovesooty Sun 17-Nov-13 14:20:20

Does anyone have an opinion on my comparison of text with impact?

ilovesooty Sun 17-Nov-13 14:22:09

SP you have every right not to care about how people talk but there are settings such as the workplace where it often matters.

SharpLily Sun 17-Nov-13 14:22:26

Yes - both are wrong, both are ugly if you're an elitist, but as language evolves it apparently doesn't matter that people won't understand what you really mean if you use the wrong tense.

SharpLily Sun 17-Nov-13 14:24:59

Quite, Sooty.

There's the famous stereotypical example of 'I pay great attention to detale' on a CV. I'm happy that my current job does not involve any hiring (or firing) of staff, but in the past those kind of efforts went straight in the bin. Why would I risk my company's budget on someone too slapdash to even get their CV checked over? If they are too lazy and careless to get that right, what hope do I have that they will do any better at the job?

PattyPuddy Sun 17-Nov-13 14:27:17

Here in New Zealand they say "skim milk". I correct them every time by asking for skimmed milk.

And yes, it is texted and packed!

usualsuspect Sun 17-Nov-13 14:27:18

People will understand.

It's obvious what people mean if they say 'I text him yesterday'

Or 'I'm making a pack lunch'

alexpolistigers Sun 17-Nov-13 14:27:57

SharpLily - Do you really think that people won't understand what you mean if you say "I text him yesterday" - I think it's perfectly clear, just as "I put it over there" is clear.

ReluctantBeing Sun 17-Nov-13 14:28:12

Ginnel and snickers are alleyways in Yorkshire. We moved up to Yorkshire from London a few years ago and we still keep finding out new terms. I hate 'chuddy' for chewing gum.

alexpolistigers Sun 17-Nov-13 14:28:33

Or alternatively, I could just say I agree with usualsuspect

nennypops Sun 17-Nov-13 14:29:10

The suggestion that language changes and adapts is a standard get-out clause for an awful lot of bad grammar. There really is a difference between vibrant new language such as, indeed, using "text" as a verb, and incorrect language. There is no other context in which a verb that ends in two consonants the last of which is a t remains the same whether it is past or present tense: think, for instance, of want, dent, tilt, fast, hint, impact, silt, detect, dust, melt, reject, test, belt - etc etc.

AlwaysInBed Sun 17-Nov-13 14:30:27

SP

I also miss out ts.

Texing. I know it's texting. It's just how I grew up speaking. People understand me. hmm

And shuntuh, woulduh, oughta etc;

Tee2072 Sun 17-Nov-13 14:30:55

I am grateful that I do not give a fuck about this shit ad it seems to really stress some people out.

SPsDoesntLikeChaffingFishnets Sun 17-Nov-13 14:31:18

Well people understand each other perfectly here and people who say 'text' instead of texted managed to get jobs.

If instead of text they used 'huler' then yes, no one would have a clue what they were on about

usualsuspect Sun 17-Nov-13 14:32:49

Me too,Tee.

As long as I get the gist of what someone is saying I don't care how they say it.

alexpolistigers Sun 17-Nov-13 14:32:52

nennypops Does it really matter if "text" is the only other verb that works in this way? I challenge you to find another verb that works in the same way as "be".

SharpLily Sun 17-Nov-13 14:33:02

It's obvious what people mean if they say 'I text him yesterday'

I'm glad you're so sure. I've spent a large part of my life outside England and my daily life now involves three different languages. In that context, it matters.

SPsDoesntLikeChaffingFishnets Sun 17-Nov-13 14:33:02

Always Shunt, wunt, cunt, dint, dunt. If people dont understand text then what must they think of those grin

usualsuspect Sun 17-Nov-13 14:34:33

Imagine getting all worked up because someone said 'mash potato' in your presence.

nennypops Sun 17-Nov-13 14:34:42

People will understand.
It's obvious what people mean if they say 'I text him yesterday'
Or 'I'm making a pack lunch'

Sure, but why should they have to? In essence you are saying "I expect everyone else to make the effort to understand my incorrect English because I can't be bothered to get it right".

When I come across something like this, particularly in writing, it brings me up short while I work out what the person means. It therefore spoils the flow of what they have written and means that the sense of it doesn't come over as well. Why would you ruin the effect of what you are saying just because you can't be bothered to write or type two letters so that it reads properly? And why be so bad mannered as to make everyone else stop to work out what you mean?

alexpolistigers Sun 17-Nov-13 14:35:57

Tee I can't say I don't give a fuck, because to me all this is deeply interesting.

I don't get stressed, however, and I don't pass any value judgements on what people should be saying.

I just like to investigate it and analyse it

ilovesooty Sun 17-Nov-13 14:36:06

SP I think there are settings where people might be well advised not to use those either.

SPsDoesntLikeChaffingFishnets Sun 17-Nov-13 14:36:38

imagine getting all worked up because someone said 'mash potato' in your presence

Then handing them a frog as you couldn't understand them

nennypops Sun 17-Nov-13 14:37:19

nennypops Does it really matter if "text" is the only other verb that works in this way? I challenge you to find another verb that works in the same way as "be".

The point is that there are very long-standing historical reasons for the irregularity of the verb "to be", which is irregular in most if not all European languages. There is no reason whatsoever why you should impose irregularity on a new verb. The English language is complicated enough, for goodness sake.

usualsuspect Sun 17-Nov-13 14:38:10

I think it's bad manners to start threads about other people's mistakes on internet forums.

I think it's mad manners to say that other peoples accents are wrong and we must all speak perfect RP.

But mostly I don't care. I'm here for the lolz.

SPsDoesntLikeChaffingFishnets Sun 17-Nov-13 14:39:58

Sooty what settings?

nennypops Sun 17-Nov-13 14:41:07

Well people understand each other perfectly here and people who say 'text' instead of texted managed to get jobs.

It depends what the job is, though, doesn't it? If it's a job that requires the writing of clear English, people who write "text" instead of "texted" or "bias" instead of "biased" won't get that job.

ilovesooty Sun 17-Nov-13 14:41:48

A formal interview? A workplace meeting or conference? In front of children in an educational setting?

Tee2072 Sun 17-Nov-13 14:42:09

I didn't mean you alex.

So, nenny, you never read anything written in the vernacular or written before the 20th century?

alexpolistigers Sun 17-Nov-13 14:43:36

I know what you meant, Tee! wink

Just had to point it out, though!

alexpolistigers Sun 17-Nov-13 14:44:43

I bet I could find a verb "to be" in a modern European language that is extremely regular wink

DrCoconut Sun 17-Nov-13 14:49:33

MySiamese, my DH moved from the south up here to the great wilderness of the north. When his new colleagues invited him to "t' snap wagon" he had no idea what they meant at all. Soon learned :-)

SharpLily Sun 17-Nov-13 14:51:14

There's a very similar circular argument on another thread here at the moment, about hideous illiteracy on Facebook posts. Now I tend not correct spelling or other errors others make unless asked, but I admit I sneer gently in my head. Is that elitist? Because the same people who elicit my scorn for 'hunnneeeee', 'baybee', 'cheeki' etc. tend to sneer openly at me for my habit of ironing my underwear, getting excited and inspired when watching Obsessive Compulsive Cleaners or being appalled by un-rinsed washing up. Are they elitist too? Or is this just bad manners instead? Or is it just la guerre?

In the end, if you're not happy to receive criticism for your spelling, grammar, cleaning regimes or other idiosyncracies, don't give people the ammunition. If you're grammatically challenged and don't want to be corrected, get someone to check your Facebook posts before you make them, or be prepared to receive criticism. If you can't handle people poking fun at your unusual habits, don't tell them all about it. It seems a simple enough concept to me. Yet for some reason when it comes to spelling, grammar etc. people tend to turn it into a class issue and make uncomfortable value judgements. Yes, I hate seeing illiterate Facebook posts and poor literacy in general, but that doesn't make me (or anyone else on this side of the fence) a terrible, superior person. I'm nice. Or naice. And luffly...

SPsDoesntLikeChaffingFishnets Sun 17-Nov-13 14:53:54

If you're grammatically challenged and don't want to be corrected, get someone to check your Facebook posts before you make them, or be prepared to receive criticism

grin not everyone has a grammar checker at hand. Is grammatically challenged even a thing?

PattyPuddy Sun 17-Nov-13 14:54:36

Well said SharpLily.

It's all about standards (aint it!)

nennypops Sun 17-Nov-13 15:02:48

So, nenny, you never read anything written in the vernacular or written before the 20th century?

I assume you're not suggesting that everything written before the 20th century is automatically ungrammatical? Or that I or anyone else has suggested that there's anything wrong with the accurate representation of reported vernacular speech where that is appropriate to the context?

SharpLily Sun 17-Nov-13 15:08:54

not everyone has a grammar checker at hand.

Granted, but it's really not that difficult - so either don't post or be prepared to be corrected by the grammar Nazis and take it in good part.

Is grammatically challenged even a thing?

It's a nasty, modern construction. wink

I've written at length on the other thread about how I actually think the world is coming to an end because people say 'lil princess' and 'gawjus'.

SPsDoesntLikeChaffingFishnets Sun 17-Nov-13 15:11:41

Well there are no grammar nazis on my FB. People also dont go round correcting spellings. So its a non issue for me.

Tee2072 Sun 17-Nov-13 15:12:50

I was just going by what you said up thread, Nenny, about being pulled out of the text by something that was 'off'. Anything that is before our time is 'off'.

Isn't it?

SharpLily Sun 17-Nov-13 15:15:48

Really, SP? Or are they just gently mocking you in their heads? wink

LiberalPedant Sun 17-Nov-13 15:16:30

Yet for some reason when it comes to spelling, grammar etc. people tend to turn it into a class issue and make uncomfortable value judgements.

That's because it is sometimes a class issue, or a learning disability issue, or a deprivation issue, or a English-not-a-first-language issue.

usualsuspect Sun 17-Nov-13 15:21:38

So what you are saying is you only want people who write grammatically correct posts to post on MN?

That's not very inclusive is it.

SharpLily Sun 17-Nov-13 15:25:14

Oh come on, there are some posts on Mumsnet that are very difficult to understand. I don't expect perfection, but I don't think it hurts to make a bit of an effort. As someone pointed out above, it's pretty rude to the other Mumsnetters to expect them to decipher gobbledygook.

usualsuspect Sun 17-Nov-13 15:26:24

I've never read a post on MN I can't understand.

serin Sun 17-Nov-13 15:27:33

I see the thread has moved on, but 'snap' is from mining towns (I am from Wigan and it was certainly used when I was growing up there).

It refers to the noise of the lid snapping down on the miners tin lunch boxes, don't think Tupperware/Sistema was commonplace then.

usualsuspect Sun 17-Nov-13 15:27:39

You don't expect perfection?

Oh that's ok then hmm

serin Sun 17-Nov-13 15:30:04

Hey! My kids still wear singlets in the winter, much to the disdain of DH (from Surrey) grin

ilovesooty Sun 17-Nov-13 15:30:08

"lil princess" and "gawjus" are just horrible imo.I've only two people on my FB friends list who use them and since I quite like them I try hard not to look too much at their updates about their children and grandchildren. grin

SharpLily Sun 17-Nov-13 15:30:20

That's because it is sometimes a class issue, or a learning disability issue, or a deprivation issue, or a English-not-a-first-language issue.

Sometimes. However I saw easily on the other thread how set in their class distinctions some people are. I mentioned that as children we lived in a bigger house, which someone translated to mean 'well off'. Well that wasn't what was said at all and was a bit of a stretch. I don't intend to get into personal details but it surprised me - I put it down to a class assumption of the kind that I don't find comes naturally to me. British class divisions often tend to pass me by, to be honest, so I can't attribute my grammar and spelling issues to that, even if others want to.

fanjofarrow Sun 17-Nov-13 15:30:29

It is indeed ''packed lunch''.

When I was a kid I thought it was ''PAT lunch'' for years! grin

serin Sun 17-Nov-13 15:31:32

Oh, sorry usual....got caught up in your argument there! I will get 'me' coat!! grin

usualsuspect Sun 17-Nov-13 15:33:19

It's ok,serin.

I was bored with the argument anyway grin

usualsuspect Sun 17-Nov-13 15:33:20

It's ok,serin.

I was bored with the argument anyway grin

nennypops Sun 17-Nov-13 15:35:04

I was just going by what you said up thread, Nenny, about being pulled out of the text by something that was 'off'. Anything that is before our time is 'off'. Isn't it?

No. And the reason for that is obvious.

PasswordProtected Sun 17-Nov-13 15:36:28

What about fry off (as in sauter) or park up? And do not get me started on meet with, because, as far as I am concerned, the only thing you meet with is an accident.

Sandiacre Sun 17-Nov-13 15:42:36

How do people feel about local dialect and slang being banned?

An article from the BBC about a school who have banned Black Country slang.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-24967032

SPsDoesntLikeChaffingFishnets Sun 17-Nov-13 15:47:49

Really, SP? Or are they just gently mocking you in their heads? Who said I wrote anything mock worthy? Are you saying I am grammatically challenged? shock

I ain't at all, I shunt have to stand for this.

grin

The face I say them doesn't mean I spell like that. Thought it was pretty obvious.

Tee2072 Sun 17-Nov-13 15:53:57

It's not obvious to me. I must be fick.*

*Yes. Now I'm just fucking with you. Or maybe I've been fucking with you this whole time. Hard to tell.

SPsDoesntLikeChaffingFishnets Sun 17-Nov-13 15:56:44

The fact**

AlwaysInBed Sun 17-Nov-13 16:06:32

Sandiacre

The kids in my area speak MLE (so fam etc;) and they're told off for using it. I think in our area, because a lot of kids outside where we live, use it to seem cool, it's got a bad rep and isn't seen as a dialect/local slang. I think making sure pupils use standard English words for formal stuff is okay, but banning slang is wrong.

Tee2072 Sun 17-Nov-13 16:12:07
ReluctantBeing Sun 17-Nov-13 16:27:41

That just about sums up ofsted!

PerpendicularVince Sun 17-Nov-13 16:53:12

SP it sounds like i'm from very near you.

I still say packed though grin

Tee2072 Sun 17-Nov-13 16:53:42

That I wouldn't know as we do not have OFSTED in Northern Ireland.

cantbelievemyeyes Sun 17-Nov-13 17:11:02

I'm surprised that with all this talk of 'pack lunch', no one has brought up the 'hamwidge' thread. Now, whenever I make DH his packed lunch, I see only 'hamwidges', 'cheesewidges' and porkandstuffingwidges'.

intitgrand Sun 17-Nov-13 17:14:38

YANBU Pack lunch does my napper in too!

Tee2072 Sun 17-Nov-13 17:17:21

What's a napper?

SPsDoesntLikeChaffingFishnets Sun 17-Nov-13 17:24:12

Napper is head.

As in 'ya doing ma napper in'

Tee2072 Sun 17-Nov-13 17:25:55

Okay

SPsDoesntLikeChaffingFishnets Sun 17-Nov-13 17:27:06

Well it is here anyway grin No idea where it comes from

ElkTheory Sun 17-Nov-13 17:38:55

I think the issue with the word text is that for some people it sounds like one of the many one syllable verbs that are also one syllable in the past tense (cross--crossed, toss--tossed, etc.). So for those people, "text" sounds like a past tense form and "texted" sounds as wrong as "crosseded" would.

Now I would say that the rules of regular conjugation should apply if we accept text as a verb (and I'm not sure I'm willing to do that yet. . . wink). So "texted" would be the standard past tense. But I don't think people use the past tense "text" out of laziness. It's more about language perception and intuition.

jacks365 Sun 17-Nov-13 17:50:05

Pack lunch is historically correct and not a grammatical error it was a lunch that was carried in a pack. Same place the term backpack comes from.

You can have pack lunch which is noun + noun or you can have packed lunch adjective + noun

You can have mash as a noun in its own right or you can have mashed potatoes but I agree that mash potatoes is wrong.

I don't use texted as it just never quite feels right and a bit clumsy and awkward so always reword the sentence to avoid it so for example use I sent a text yesterday.

SconeRhymesWithGone Sun 17-Nov-13 17:57:12

jacks365 That's interesting; in my part of the US, it is often called a sack lunch or a bag lunch, nouns modifying nouns.

sandfrog Sun 17-Nov-13 17:58:03

It's Pedants' corner, not Pedant's corner wink

SharpLily Sun 17-Nov-13 18:10:12

Pack lunch is historically correct and not a grammatical error it was a lunch that was carried in a pack. Same place the term backpack comes from.

Not the same thing at all - you don't carry your back in a pack. It's a pack you carry on your back. You can pack a lunch, you don't pack your back.

jacks365 Sun 17-Nov-13 18:13:19

Sharp lilly hence the reversal of the order but the term for the carrier is a pack so your lunch is carried in a pack or you can carry a pack on your back.

Tee2072 Sun 17-Nov-13 18:13:33

You can, however, pack your back in, if you put too many items in your backpack.

grin

SPsDoesntLikeChaffingFishnets Sun 17-Nov-13 18:13:56

grin

SconeRhymesWithGone Sun 17-Nov-13 19:21:58

Yes, backpack is a closed compound word; you can make the argument that pack lunch is an open compound word or is in the process of becoming one. Then one day it may become compound: packlunch. wink

SconeRhymesWithGone Sun 17-Nov-13 19:27:53

I mean one day it may become a closed compound word.

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