To think that as pre school is not compulsory...(299 Posts)
That it should not matter if dd is late every day ?
My other dcs get to actual school on time but due to various health problems and the fact I don't drive dd is always about half an hour late.
I've explained time and time again to the pre school that iam doing my best but I got a letter today regarding a meeting they'd had citing one of the main problems as being that dd is late each day.
I get up at 6 am each day and get myself ready, then it takes over an hour to get dd1 up and sometimes ds1 needs help too as both have to do physio each morning. Dd2 and ds2 are only little and need to be dressed etc and dd2 has significant health needs. We get the oldest two to school on time but by then I'm already exhausted and usually have my breakfast and a cup of tea and then get dcs ready to walk down to pre school.
Dd hates it so screams and takes shoes off numerous times etc and it just takes ages as I'm tired.
I just feel that given the circumstances the pre school should just accept that we will never be on time rather than make such a big issue out of half an hour. Rather than putting pressure on me I would like them to just make the best of the situation and accomodate the fact that dd arrives at a different time.
YANBU but people will disagree with me by saying that it upsets the routine of the Playgroup when children are late. Personally I think that given you have children who have care needs and you seem to be really struggling, the Playgroup should be more sympathetic and compassionate
It does matter I'm afraid.
Her being late will impact on the nursery routine, she may be missing things essential to the rest of her time there, like my dds pre school usually does a story at the start of the session and they do activities based on it, and it's disruptive for the rest of the class too.
Can you get an afternoon session instead?
they maybe think it is disruptive both for your dd and the rest of the children if she is always late. She probably misses group welcome time in the morning. Could you get her to preschool before breakfast or take a snack to eat on the way? What age is she? Could you keep her home instad?
Why do you not just go from school run to pre school?
This would reduce the opportunities for shoe removal etc.
It's probably quite disruptive for them. Maybe you could ask if there is a time that is less disruptive - eg. not during circle time/focussed activity.
I can't see how it makes a difference as there is no routine as such, the whole morning is 'free play' except the last 15 mins of songs and story.
They are making a big deal out of it but on a Wednesday when they run a longer session parents were given the option of pay a bit extra for longer morning or bring their child a bit later! So its okin some circumstances it just not for me.
It is making me quite stressed, dd used to be late and collected early but now stays the extra 45 mins till end of the session but nobody seems to notice that only the fact that we are still late each day.
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
yes a nursery where you book hours and use or not as you please rather than a preschool with standard sessions might be more suitable
I think it would be far better for your child if you got them there on time. Playgroup sessions are planned meticulously. Arriving half an hour late every session is defeating the object of sending them there. Could you go straight to the playgroup after school drop off and maybe not go straight home. I used to do that and help set up for the session. Taking them home again made it really difficult to get back out. Hope you find a solution.
Yanbu, our preschool has always been quite flexible about stuff likje this, obv they prefer it if you are on time but they dont mind if you are late and some children do shorter a sessions ie arriving late or finishing early etc.
Seems to vary though some are much more flexible, when looking at preschools there was another near me but opposite direction from the school so I would have been late as I walk and they insisted all children went five days a week as well...and had a uniform...needless to say I didnt choose to use their services.
It sounds as if your mornings are hard. But could your dd hate preschool precisely because she's always late so not really in synch with what's going on, and always feeling a bit on the edges? Of course the staff will/should be making sure she is included none the less, but it probably impossible to totally compensate for, as well as making their jobs harder.
I must say I sympathise but don't understand why you have breakfast between school/preschool runs, it would probably actually be easier for everyone -
not least you and your dd, if you keot going
It is disruptive to the rest of the class having children arriving late. What would it be like if lots of the children did this?
Also it is unfair to your dd, arriving late is never nice, you feel like you've missed out on something and also she has missed all the initial routines with the other children
Dd is 3.
Dd1 has to be at school at 820 am and ds1 at a different school at 830 am then I usually go to my mums (she lives 5 mins from the pre school) and by the time I get there at about 840 am I am exhausted and hungry and dd is meant to be at pre school at 915 but we just never make it as she needs the toilet then ds needs changing (he has a regular 9 am poo explosion!) and its just all so much effort.
Dd2 is diabetic so I also have to check her blood sugar. One day last week I tried really hard was nearly ready to leave the house at 9.10 am , checked dd and she was hypo so then it all went wrong.
We have only been on time once, and from that I saw that there is no welcome time just in the door and straight into playing so I don't think it makes the big difference that they are assaying it does, in fact it seems easier to take dd later when all the other children settled as I can then speak to her key worker and do the daily handover a bit easier.
Yanbu. This is why I'm glad the dc's went to nursery, we could rock up at any time we fancied, and collect whenever I wanted.
We were always late for toddler groups too, it just wasn't important enough to rush. But we have never, ever been late for school. We're sometimes the first people there.
Oops posted too soon - if you lept going from school to preschool, dropped her on time, then you could relax properly knowing you didn't have to go back put again almost immediately.
My DS's pre-school isn't just about free play and if he was 30 mins late it would disrupt the start of the day. They have to go 5 days a week and have a uniform and my DS loves it and its good prep for school routine.
I would change to a nursery if you don't like the rules of the pre-school.
It will be disruptive for the nursery and all of the children involved, so I don't think you can completely dismiss their concerns. It is reasonable for the pre school to want to discuss the situation with you.
There should be circle time shortly after all the children have arrived. They have to have circle, chat, show and tell time. Our playgroup had free play from 9.30 to 9.45 then circle time.
Does she have to do mornings? My dts always did afternoon sessions at pre-school as I knew there was no way I'd get them there on time (and dressed).
In y4 now and never been late for 'real' school, so got the hang of it & it has had no lasting effects.
If I kept going from school to pre school I'd be there about half an hour too early, ds2 would get grumpy and it would mean sitting around in the reception of the pre school for 30 mins.
I think once I get to my mums that's just the point where the tiredness hits me, it doesn't help that dd just moans and cries that she doesn't want to go and screams all the way in the buggy. Seems a lot of effort for something that just makes me stressed.
When she's there she does calm down and has fun but I just can't seem to get there at the right time.
am I right in understanding that you have 3 children with significant health needs? I am wondering if the older two (who have to have physio at home before leaving for school) are entitled to transport to school? might be worth exploring
DD went to nursery and the children turned up any time from 7am up until 10am and left when parents finished work. It didnt seem to cause disruption ir if it did the staff dealt with it well. They did the structured bits between 10 and 3 and had free play with a choice of activities the rest of the time.
Is there an other option close by? They might be able to accomadate better
I think its going to be a dealbreaking issue (perhaps for them) if you are regularly late. Its disruptive for the other children who will have already said goodbye ad be settling down into their day. Imagine if everyone came and left whenever.
You say you stop for breakfast and a cup of tea - can you do this before the run/after the pre-school run? Or take a breakfast bar?
Do you have to go home in between? That's what's drawing it out. Do you have a pre-school nearer? Or a childminder that does the early years. OR even a nursery that is set up for fleixble starts/finishes.
Dd usually sleeps in the afternoons so needs morning sessions.
I don't feel I could change her now as the new nursery/ pre school would have to be trained by the diabetes team and it took months with the current nursery to get things right and dd would be leaving next July anyway so doesn't seem worth it to change now.
YANBU you are right it's not the same as school.
Yes but if you arrive late with her the key worker has to stop what they are doing (which is working with the children) and greet her and do the handover, so it is disruptive. What would happen if this continued throughout the morning?
I think they are being ridiculous tbh, but your argument of pre school not being compulsory is no different to school not being compulsory and you manage that on time.
Just tell them it isn't bloody important at 3 years old , they are supposed to be playing at this age not getting into routines. They have a life in front of them to do this.
Tell them to stuff it.
Take her straight to pre-school and don't go to your mum's first. They'd be happier to have her 5-10 minutes early than half an hour late. She probably doesn't enjoy it because she stands out as being late all the time and misses out on the first half an hour. Get her there on time, then she can benefit from the whole session and you can relax knowing all your kids are where they should be.
I have 4 dcs, the youngest is only one though so even though he has problems he's still probably the same as any other baby of his age we just have to be more careful handling him as he dislocates easily.
I really feel like it may be easier to just give up the pre school but then I'd worry about dd socialising etc as she will start school next year.
It is literally the only time I get to sit down and have breakfast at that time, up until then I don't have a spare second but once I sit down with a cup of tea it just hits me and then I'm lethargic and slow to do anything.
Can your mum help?
Does she have to go in the buggy if its just around the corner?
If she's screaming each day - you're right she doesn't have to go. How about just 2 mornings a week - or not at all?
IF its just around the corner can you have breakfast after the preschool run?
What about a childminder?
It doesn't sound like its working.
It really does matter. It is disruptive both to your dd and to the other children. It disrupts the adults in the room who will have to stop what they are doing (supporting other children) to greet your child and settle them to an activity - or at least it would in my setting.
I also find that children who arrive late are unsettled for longer as they walk into a group which is already busy and where groups of children have formed for particular activities. It can be very hard for some children to break into these groups.
Stopping for a cup of tea and breakfast is not an acceptable reason for your child to be late every day.
You have my sympathy with the additional needs, really - but you are using these as an excuse. It is your breakfast making your children late, not their health.
My mum works from 8 am so she's not there when I am.
I have a double buggy as dd also has a joint problem and if she walks too far she either gets pain or the exertion makes her blood sugar drop.
From what I know dd is the only one who gets there late and if the pre school would accomodate this I don't see why they couldn't just make sure her key worker could be available for a few minutes at the time I can get there.
I can see both sides of this, as DS2 is having difficulty settling into preschool. He wails when he's dropped and I'm willing to bet if he saw other children with their parents, half an hour in, just as he was starting to calm down, it would set him off again. I can see how it would be hard for the staff, getting children settled and then having them unsettled again.
However, I think personal circumstances do have to be taken into account and I would expect the preschool staff to prioritise parents/ children/ parents with other children whose additional needs make life harder, over the larger minority who are finding settling a bit hard going, but will get there in the end. If preschool are aware of everything else in your life then I think their attitude stinks, if they aren't aware then they should be.
Do you have any other options where the drop off times would coincide better?
Can you take a thermos of tea and your breakfast (snacks for your dc) and go straight to the preschool and eat them there while you wait for the doors to open?
I know, I just can't function if I have not eaten. Still bf ds2 ( he has cmp allergy) so I get so hungry. I walk a lot too and if I don't have a proper breakfast I feel faint.
Have to stop off too to check dds blood sugar too and respond to whatever it is, sometimes she needs a snack or is hypo and its easier dealing with all this indoors rather than on the go or sitting in pre school half an hour early if I don't stop at my mums.
It's not compulsory but I think if you're going to use the session then you should do your utmost to get there on time as it's disruptive.
Half an hour early is fine take a snack and a book to read together, let her have a run round outside for ten mins?
tbh I think you could do it but do not prioritise it highly enough. You mange to get to school on time every day.
If you have only managed to arrive once on time during the last term I can see why you have had a letter (and yes I do get the additional needs and physio we have similar).
Whilst the children may have free play the staff are observing and recording interactions and learning (thanks to ofstead etc) every time you come in late they have to stop what they are doing to settle your child, disturb other children and interupt play. Maybe if your dd went in with everyone else everyday she may not feel so unsettled about going (yes the hypo car is unavoidable but surely the monster poo could be dealt with by your mother or maybe go to the preschool and wait and have story time together (what we used to do ) or ask if she can come in earlier so ds does not become too difficult).
In short there are many ways of overcoming the problems but quite simply you do not think you need to.
cereal bars for when you get up and at pre-school and you could always have a brunch after.
You either need to work out how you can get there on time or find another option.
But your dd's key worker will have other children in her key group. In order to settle your dd she will have to leave those children, possibly in the middle of an activity.
You need to sit down with the pre-school and talk this through. I have to say though, that I think you will need to compromise and consider either afternoon sessions, eating a snack yourself on the way and/or checking your dd's blood once you get to Nursery. Alternatively, could you check her blood before you leave home?
I think it sounds like too much stress for you - especially if your DD doesn't really want to go.
Children don't have to go to pre-school.
I think you're kind of making excuses now. You could get her there on time but you are choosing not to.
Does your DD have funded hours at pre-school? If so, then this could be the issue.
My DS1 went to nursery one day a week from age 8 months, when I went back to work. After DS2 was born I continued sending DS1 to nursery for that one day a week, even though I was in maternity leave (it have him some continuity and gave me a break). I'm a single parent and with one thing and another, I just couldn't get to nursery on time. The nursery arrived me this was not a problem.
However, they were then audited, and it was noted that although my scheduled hours were 9-5, I wasn't turning up till nearer 10. Nurseries and pre schools put in claims for the funded hours before term starts, so if someone is regularly late, it essentially looks as if the nursery are making a fraudulent claim. My DS's nursery was told to pay back all the money they'd claimed for DS when he wasn't actually there. They then asked me to pay it. I raised the issue with the council and luckily they dropped it all, but it's possibly a reason why your daughter's pre school are unhappy.
Provided the half hour means you arrive at exactly the same time every day, an organised preschool could arrange it the same way a nursery do. There's no reason the key worker can't organise her day to be available at 9:45, to ensure minimal disruption to all the other children.
I know what you've said about changing settings being difficult, but some accommodate additional needs so much better, it might make life easier in the long run.
Multiple typos! Nursery assured me
Are you able to wait inside at preschool then? I assumed you would have to wait outside. Definitely go early then and have breakfast/snacks while you wait. If ds has a poo explosion pop into your mums to change him but don't stop for breakfast. I do think you need to prioritise being punctual for your daughters sake.
There are many ways around this but sounds like you are making excuses. Surely like many of us do we eat as we are doing other stuff? Pack a snack, have cereal bars, there's so many options.
I would go to the meeting with a view to using it as an opportunity to discuss the difficulties you have been having. It may be that the pre-school will be able to work with you to come up with a way around this.
I sympathise that it must be hard for you, but why not have your breakfast with all your children before you set off on first school run and only stop at your mums for your dds meds?
Wait til you're home for your cup of tea.
I think the preschool may sympathise and bend rules if there was a genuine reason you couldn't get there, but unless I've misread, it seems to be WI that you can have a cup of tea ?!?
YABU. This is the practice for school.
Are you a lone parent? This sounds like such an exhausting start to the day.
Does your 3yo nap every afternoon? My 3.5yo only does about once a week, if that.
I think you may have to switch to afternoons. Your dd will have to be school-ready in September.
it seems easier to take dd later when all the other children settled as I can then speak to her key worker and do the daily handover a bit easier This might be part of the problem as the key worker is having to break off from what she is doing to speak to you and do the daily handover.
Dd1 is a complete nightmare in mornings, cries in pain, won't get up and needs dressing and help with medication. If ds1 is having a bad day too I don't get time to eat before they go to school.
I had to submit medical letters and a drs certificate for the pre school to send re dds funding as there were issues but I think they are resolved now. At one point they nearly withdrew her funding as she was off for 3 weeks but after the letter it was ok.
No not a lone parent but dh works long hours, used to be 7-5 but to help in mornings he changed his hours to 930-630. Sometimes he has to work later if they are v busy though.
Dd sleeps every afternoon, usually in buggy on way to collect ds1.
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
Dh drops us at dd1 school at 820 and then drives to work (its just over an hour away so he arrives there at 930).
My DS hates it when we're late for preschool, or even if we just arrive at register time. The only times he ever cries when I'm leaving him are when we're rushed. I can see where the preschool are coming from as it can be quite unsettling for children if they're out of synch with the routine. There are also security issues with letting parents in at different times.
Your mornings do sound stressful but if you could may e have breakfast first thing with the kids that might help save you some time. Also have the little ones ready for preschool before you do the school run if you can. I don't know if your younger children are in a buggy but I've found a buggy board very useful for saving time on the preschool run.
If you can't fit in with the preschool routine maybe you need to find another childcare provider as it's clearly causing stress all round.
So your dh is there in the mornings to help?
I appreciate that things are hard, but you seem to be coming up with lots of excuses. I think that you need to speak to the pre- school again, but you also need to accept that if they say that their sessions times start at a specific time, then you need to be there on time. If you are not able to fit in with their requirements then you need to find alternative provision or move to the afternoon sessions.
If dd sleeps in the buggy on the way to collect ds1 then this is presumably towards 3.00pm ie. at the end of afternoon pre-school sessions.
No yanbu , you have very good reasons for the lateness. The preschool do not sound very accommodating at all. I always used private nurserys as they are much more flexible.
I'm never sure if I'm reading the same thread as everyone else, there are significant health issues with several of the DC, aren't there? It's not just a cup of tea causing problems, it's checking blood sugar, dealing with hypos, etc. Cereal bars on the hoof are not going to be helpful for a diabetic, afternoon naps might be optional for a lot of DC but not necessarily for one with serious health problems.
This meeting should be about how the preschool can offer support, if it's not then maybe this preschool isn't the right one for your DD.
Dh is therein mornings to help we get up at 6 and usually have 2 each to deal with, leave our house at 750 to drive to dcs schools as they are not that close to us. It's a huge amount of work for us both especially after little sleep.
There literally is no time it's frantic, getting dcs up, physio, blood sugar check, injections, dd then often refuse food, the baby cries, etc etc. absolute nightmare.
I just cannot see why the preschool can't make an exception in light of the circumstances.
in your op you said you get up first to get ready - could that not include food? A cup of tea too if you get up 5min earlier?
Yes she naps around 3 but from 1 pm onwards is tired and usually uncomfortable so afternoon sessions would probably not agree with her .
Take a step back... It sounds miserable for everybody
What is your dd getting out of this? What are you getting out of it? How much pressure is it putting on you all as a family?
From an outsiders perspective ... I don't think it's adding up is it?
Can you withdraw dd from preschool without any major repercussions for school places later? Give it a year til she has to go, and you may find alot of the morning issues have resolved.
Don't get sucked into battling an inflexible school based system when you don't have to. You shouldn't be made to feel awful when it's all optional anyway. I know it probably does put pressure on the teachers etc with a disruptive morning, but I read your post and I see someone really struggling and just pressuring you to fit in when you just can't, well I can't see how that's going to help anyone.
By get ready I mean go for a wee and throw on clothes! Before starting the 1 hour+ ordeal of waking dd1 who cries and cries and usually needs nurofen and paracetamol.
Sometimes I make tea but then never actually drink it.
I am at the point of just giving up with pre school if they insist on her being there on time. She likes it when there but cries beforehand and hates me leaving. I can hear her screaming when I walk out.
Your dd1 sounds really poorly. Is she/are you getting all the help she's entitled to? I think another poster mentioned a taxi to school?
Dd1 needs an op which will help a bit, seeing gosh in December.
If what you call pre school is what used to be called school nursery then yes, they do have to be there at the set times. I can't see the benefit of her going.why don't you withdraw her and either keep her at home our send her to a private childcare nursery. They also do the early years education bit but well be more flexible about times I think.
Are the school aware of what you have to do each morning regarding other dcs? sorry if I missed that.
The pre school is not attached to a school. It is run from a room in children's centre and does am or pm sessions of 3 hrs.
I'm all in favour of pre schools but in your case it sounds like an awful lot of work and stress for very little gain.
From the sounds of things I think you and your dh are doing very well to just get the older ones to school on time.
Yes I have explained to them about other dcs ( they knew anyway as older two attended the same pre school).
I second those who have suggested a nursery rather than a pre-school setting would be preferable.
My son attended my work-place nursery for a few years and there was never any requirement to arrive at a certain time.
For the 9 months prior to starting school he went to our village pre-school one morning a week, just to get to know his peers and to take advantage of the extra school visits they did. It was expected that you arrived at the beginning of the session and it was a much more structured setting. However, I am sure they would have accommodated me arriving 1/2hr late if it was 1) a regular arrangement and 2) for a good reason. I am surprised they are not being a little more helpful since it ISN'T school.
Could you just go and speak to them, explain your predicament and perhaps you can reach a compromise? Perhaps the exact time you arrive is problematic for them, but 10mins later wouldn't be?
And more food for thought, if you can hold off from having tea st your mums, then you drop dd in time, and then you get an extra 30 min and one less child to look after, to really have a cup if tea in peace.
Have spoken to them but don't think they fully understand how hard things are.
My older two dcs went there so they have some idea but its very difficult to get across how much we are struggling.
Looked into nurseries but all in area are full or with huge lists.
It's always disruptive when someone arrives late. And now you say she screams when you leave. That is very unsettling for the other children. I'd forget pre-school for now.
From the moment she gets up she's unhappy and saying she doesn't want to go, that's often what she refuses breakfast then has low blood sugar a bit later on meaning more checks/ treating a hypo.
She cries on the way in buggy and screams when we turn the corner to the centre. She goes mad crying and screaming when we get there and clings onto me and begs to go home. Sometimes I just go, other times I have to wait to check her again and make sure she eats her snack. It is noisy and disruptive I suppose for the other children but none of them ever seem upset by it.
Pre school have also mentioned how it is unfair on the other children and also at snack time when dd gets more biscuits than them ( they have a 1 biscuit rule) and I just feel like we are a big inconvenience to them.
OP what does your DD actually get from going to preschool?
She does calm down after a while and plays. She likes painting and making things and due to the dcs problems we don't get much opportunity for painting etc at home so its good in that sense.
Dd enjoys socialising and its good that she allows other adults to do her checks etc as she will be at school next year and she used to only want me to do it.
Dd is diabetic, is she on a pump? Or does she have injections? You may find a pump will help with your morning routine once you can easily work out carbs etc. I agree with a lot of posts here. Change her to a nursery, many accept the grant placements, but the timings are much more flexible than preschools which run strictly to a school day. I would say if you had no medical issues to contend with that you were BU, but in light of having 4 children, one with diabetes... And did you say the others needed physio? .... I don't think it's unreasonable, but I also don't think this preschool sounds like the right environment for your daughter. They are not giving her the pastoral care she needs by the sounds of it x
No if doesn't matter, it's pre-school FFS. I detest lateness but if has never once occurred to me being late for pre-school would matter a jot, because it doesn't!
Still not hearing a good reason to keep her there - honestly, why can't you move her or pull her out?
I think they RBU. For goodness sakes, the children aren't doing double maths when your little one arrives. The most disruption caused would be the turn of ahead or someone shuffling up for them to sit down. We were always late to nursery. I worked mornings but also didn't avoid it as I do school. If they're not understanding of your special circumstances, stuff them! Be polite and understanding at the meeting. Explain that until he's at school, aged 4/5, this is the way it must be.
I don't think it is unreasonable to expect the children to be on time, half an hour out of a 3 hour session is a lot.
I can see how hard things are for you. Why do you all go to Dd1's drop off why can't your DH drop them on his own and then leave u to get other 2 DC ready of they leave at 750 am that gives u over an hour before needing to leave for pre school. How do u get back from school run anyway if it is half an hour away?
I think previous poster who suggested eligibility for transport to school is worth exploring.
To be honest if your DD2 is as unhappy being left at the pre school as she sounds I would withdraw her and look at other options, it sounds like it is making your life harder.
Your logic is off, because school's not mandatory either, but if you choose to avail yourself of a school place, then you have to abide by the rules. Otherwise, they are within their rights to say you can't have the place, because as it's not mandatory for her to be there, nor is it mandatory for them to accept her.
However, it does sound like she's not ready for pre-school, and if she's not having a positive experience then there's not much point in her going. Maybe just take a break and put her in school in September.
We all go to dd1s drop off as there's not time for dh to drop us off anywhere else first as we are always in such a rush that we get there only just on time.
It is a huge amount of effort, I really wish pre school would just agree to dd going in that little bit later.
The staff should certainly
Not be complaining about your DD needing extra biscuits because if her diabetes.
If it was me I would just knock it on the head, and keep her at home with you until she starts school nursery next September. Even that isn't compulsory though.
I don't think turning up late should be that much of an issue. As play should be free flow and fairly unstructured. However, you could just go to pre-school straight after the school run, like posters have suggested.
It just seems absurd to me that when she was 2 she attended a different nursery ( we left as it was so expensive), they had quite a strict routine of welcome time, certain activities, then a snack then garden time then more activities and lunch.
It was very regimented with little songs to end each activity and begin another yet they said it was fine to get dd at whatever time I wanted.
I also find it hard that at the current pre school on a wed some children come in late rather than normal time and pay extra so they do have a few children on that day turning up when the others are already there and settled and it causes no major problems although I expect the issues are more because with dd I need to handover and go through things each day due to her problems so her key worker has to leave what she scoring to speak to me.
You have very difficult circumstances, I think the pre-school should show a bit of compassion and agree that your DD can go in later. The "rules are rules" mentality is ridiculous and very uncaring.
I would put in writing to the pre school that dd will attend from x time each day due to the complex health needs issues within the family. I would state that this is non negotiable and a reasonable accommodation for them to make.
I would then stop stressing about it. You have enough on your plate frankly and sound like you are doing your tip top best. I assume she will go to school in september so that will be one minor thing made easier.
Could you just slow down the pace between the 8.30am drop off? Can you chat to parents in playground for 5 mins, then slowly walk to the nursery? If dd walked would it take much longer? So by the time you got there it was 9am ish? Or if she has to go in pram walk the long way around. Then sit on bench and give her snack etc then you will be ready to go in at 9.15am.
I really don't think there's time for tea and breakfast. Can you not have breakfast when you get up/ with the children or after all drop offs?
It shouldn't matter but clearly it does. So change your routine so you won't be late. Stop making excuses. Accommodate the things that make you late.
I'm persistently late. Recently started to change my habits so I'm earlier/ on time. Getting up earlier even though I'd rather not, preparing everything I need the night before, building in time for loo visits, chivvying dc earlier than before, aiming for earlier time out the house.
Going home for breakfast after you drop off ds not working, so get breakfast earlier then take food with you in case dd needs more. Test her once you drop of the boys as you'll be early to pre-school the bung her grab & go food if needed.
You'd probably feel less exhausted if you ate brekkie yourself first thing before leaving house. I wouldn't be able to cope without eating & starting my day first. Id always get up earlier to make sure I eat. Just quick bowl of cereal plus cuppa tea with water in it to cool it down!
You have very difficult circumstances, I think the pre-school should show a bit of compassion and agree that your DD can go in later. The "rules are rules" mentality is ridiculous and very uncaring
I agree. It sounds like you're doing the best you can! It's a shame.
I'm not sure how it can be so disruptive for other children really. Surely one little girl turning up half an hour late every day would become part of the routine anyway. I doubt the children care or think it's unfair.
I'm not sure what you can do if they are going to insist apart from find another place or keep her a home a while longer, but I don't think you're being unreasonable.
I think it might be possible to walk the long way etc but its getting colder and dcs just get freezing in the buggy, also when its raining I just really can't be bothered being soaked, these probably sound like excuses but I am sick and tired of being in and out so much during the day in bad weather! And when everything else is factored in its overwhelming.
Testing dd and giving snacks on the go is hard, often I have to weigh out a certain amount depending on blood sugar and its hard doing that when out. Couple of times on windy days at school pick up I've struggled and ended up with bg test strips flying round the playground and its near impossible.
I know for myself the one thing I couldn't drop from my routine would be eating.
With all that stress etc... you could end up making yourself very poorly
I don't think it's helpful to suggest how you can change your morning routine to be honest. If you were able to change it you would find a way but it isn't as straightforward as someone from the outside saying "oh just do it this way" as it's hard enough to get everything organised with so many different demands at once.
It certainly doesn't sound like you're just loafing about making yourself late. Under your circumstances I'd be lucky to make it to the pre-school at all!
If course it's helpful to suggest a different routine, the one OP has isn't working.
She either changes it slightly, stops taking DD to pre-school or carries on being late.
Did OP want us all to agree that being late is OK and to not offer practical solutions.
I don't see the problem, nursery I work in parents drop off and pick up anytime within their hours. The dc even the really unsettled per schoolers have no problem with other dc being dropped off later. Have no idea why some nurserys and preschools get all uppity they still get their money whether your late or not.
I had this with dd she was supposed to go 5days a week but the nursery she was in would moan at me for not taking her because i wouldn't all the time if we were doing other stuff like the zoo or other days out. Oh an the crèche she went to as a baby used to say dd was unsettled on any days we were late, bullshit she was always fine and I worked in the same building and spot checked a lot do I know she was fine.
Hi OP, it sounds all very difficult. If there's somewhere to wait, can you bring snacks and do your testing there? It sounds like going home again in between school and preschool is a bit of a faff and disruptive to your dd.
If not, maybe you just need to tell the preschool that you will always arrive at 9:30 (or whatever time you usually arrive by when you're late) due to your daughter's health needs, and stick rigidly to it so you're never late for that time.
Finally, maybe approach the meeting in terms of seeing how they can help you be on time rather than in a defensive mode - is there anything they can do to support your dd being on time? Can they provide you with an area to test your dd before preschool begins? If so, maybe meet them half way and bring a snack with you and have full breakfast when you get home.
Preschool us not compulsory so if it's not working, don't send her.
Either agree to what the preschool are asking or opt out.
It does sound very difficult for you but you do have a choice.
I wouldn't be hanging around a freezing playground eating breakfast bars and checking my dds hypo. Absolute bonkers especially as its getting so cold.
OP you need to look after yourself too! You need to eat before you set off on the school runs. Have a brew and some of those breakfast biscuits (if you can't stomach cereal) before you wake up your DC's.
Muffcakes OP said she can wait inside the children's centre for the 30 minutes.
Something clearly has to give and it isn't really up tot he preschool to be flexible unless to accommodate your dd's health needs. I wonder if you might be better changing your routine so you do the testing onsite, carry cereal bars or similar as a breakfast standby and then she is ready to join in at the start time - is there a side room you could ask to use? I remember your previous thread , do you still stay with her or are you leaving her now with a keyworker , does she have a one to one ? Could your dd1 now sort herself out more as she is at secondary ?
Your preschool sounds very unsympathetic! I'm at the begrudging your dd 2 biscuits. At all the childcare settings I've worked at, we would have a health plan/risk assessment drawn up for any children with medical needs and everyone who worked in the setting would have to familiarise themselves with it. Perhaps asking them to. Draw one up (or review it) might focus their attention on the fact that they should be trying to accommodate rather than alienate?
I do leave her now but it has been hugely difficult, she does not have a 1-1 although I think she does need one. I phone 2-3 times while she is there to check how she is its just o stressful.
Dd1 has been very unwell lately and it takes so long to help her each morning, in terms of care needed she's barely any different to dd2.
Inopportune xpost with LIZS!
Do you work? If so maybe consider a child minder or nursery? Or for pre school could you take her to an afternoon session? Here they offer half days.
For nursery I drop my baby off when it suits me as my work hours are not rigid, sometimes 0830 but anytime before 10is, never been an issue with the nursery. If I am taking baby later I will call first thing so that they include baby in lunch.
I think I will persevere till end of term. If I push myself I may get there on time I'm not sure. It's hard to explain the feeling of being so so tired and everything we have to do. Feels like I'm drowning each day.
Maybe cereal bars are the way to go and if I not sit down in between school and pre school I'd probably be ok !
No, I don't work due to dcs problems.
Could you not get to pre school half an hour early and do all your bits there. Check sugar levels and give snack if necessary. Have a breakfast snack yourself (breakfast biscuits, cereal bar, fruit, sandwich). Breastfeed and change ds as necessary. That way you wont get all the delaying tactics from DD.
You could at least offer this as an option to the preschool when you go and talk with them. They might pefer you half an hour late if the alternative is half am hour early.
Of course yanbu. Poor you, sounds really hard. Would nursery be an option? They are much more flexible.
Maybe just maybe you're worrying about this and actually they want to offer help! Not all schools /preschools are evil and want to make parents lives difficult. They may have ideas to support you. Please go in with an open mind, if it helps print out all your posts on here which list the problems you face and just hand them over to whoever is running the meeting. As you have explained your problems very clearly here.
Are you depressed OP? You have so much to cope with and I just feel you sound very weary and exhausted and fed up. There may well be some way round your routine like making something the night before or having a breakfast bar to keep you going but you honestly sound at the end of your tether and physically and mentally can't make changes.
Have you spoken to your health visitor or GP? Are there any agencies that could come in in the morning to help with physio or even make you some breakfast? What will happen when your DD starts at school. She will need to be on time then. Do look after yourself.
Can dh do the school run with dd1 and ds1 and then head off into work so you can concentrate on dd2 eating her breakfast and you getting yourself something to eat?
Or could you bring cereal bars for you to eat so that when you stop at your mums you just need to change ds2 and check dd2 blood sugar?
On a slightly different note are you feeling a bit depressed? The sitting down and not having the energy to get back up,feeling like you're drowning are how I feel when I'm depressed. Are you getting any home help?
Yes I am suffering with depression and on anti ds. Dd getting diabetes was the straw that broke the camels back.
I would do what another poster suggested & put in writing exactly what you face in the mornings with your children & their varying circumstances. I know you say they should know because your other DC went there too, but likely they've forgotten or not really considered the full situation.
Again, as the other poster suggested, in that letter state what time you will arrive at each day (& stick to that).
It sounds to me that, given all you describe (although obviously not knowing the details of your circumstances) they are verging on being in breach of the Disability Discrimination Act by not making reasonable adjustments (alternative start time) to accommodate your DD.
However, that said, from what you describe & given Pre School isn't compulsory, I'd stop taking her. She doesn't sound like she's enjoying it & all that added stress isn't necessary given everything else you have on your plate.
Hope things get sorted.
Someone might have already said this but I haven't read all posts
If it's not a state preschool, the council only pay for the hours the child attends
I don't mean to sound patronising but I don't think they are working. You are still feeling like you are drowning.
Have you looked into weekend respite care so you can have a break?
Op do you have someone who can come to the meeting with you and and support you/advocate for you on your behalf?
Sometimes when you are so personally involved it is hard to clearly explain your reasons for things.
You have a lot to cope with and I think if the preschool were aware of the situation I think they might be able to assist you in some way.
I also think you should find out about school transport for dd1 that someone suggested earlier. This could really help as well.
I have had this time and time again. The school whoever you speak too do not sound like they have empathy.
Lots of people don't, i don't blame them for this, when you speak and tell them about your day they are not hearing you....
They would literally have to sleep in your house and actually do your morning routine to have any idea of what your going through.
I think you should perhaps just try once more for your own peace of mind, but cast your net further and look for other options, toddler groups, classes etc.
I do not think she will have any problems socialising when it comes to school though. She has lots of siblings. If the break is for you, perhaps you could find a child minder that could just do a few hours for you to give you a much needed break.
Could you get up 5 mins earlier and use it to grab toast, a flask of tea and a piece of fruit to eat in the car whilst DH drives to school ? Then do everything else at the childrens centre before the session leaving time to relax before the group ? When does DH eat his breakfast ? Or as PP said can he do the school run even just a couple of days a week so you can recharge a little.
Yes YABU to think it doesn't matter she's late when they think it does, but understandable in the circumstances.
If it wasn't for your special circumstances I would say YABU and just go to pre school straight from school.
Discuss your needs with the pre school. There's probably a member of staff there half an hour early, who could let you in to the warm, so you could check both children and have a flask of tea or something.
I get what you are saying and I get that preschool actually 'get it' too but are perhaps using this to highlight that you are struggling to cope.
Which you are - with good reason!
There is a solution here actually - the preschool is in a Children's Centre - it's not in a shack in a field but in a building equipped for families and children under 5.... About time they stopped having meetings and invited you to use their family kitchen to have breakfast and do DD's blood sugars...
FFS - this is what these places were developed for...
Meet with them but before you go WRITE your morning routine
Highlight the problem area (when you get to your mums)
Write some possible solutions:
DD having a new start time
Use the Children's Crntre
Do it in writing, take ownership of the issue and challenge them to support you
Hope you get sorted OP
I'm shocked its at a children's centre and they are do unhelpful. Arrange a meeting with an outreach worker rather than ore school staff.
Can't your DH drop off dd1 AND ds1 at school? They must be very close to each other so would only take a couple more minutes for him, and then you don't have to get all four kids ready by 7.50, you could leave much later with just the youngest two.
I phone 2-3 times while she is there to check how she is its just o stressful. Dare I suggest that you may well have anxiety issues as well as depression . That would work out at least once an hour, which again may be hugely problematic for the routine of the preschool as someone has to leave their charges to respond. You go home and fret , they are awaiting an interruption, so hardly a break for you so no wonder you are tired. You need to have more confidence in their ability to cope with dd2 and let you know if there is a problem. A meeting , addressing what they could offer to help you attend to her needs and be on time , risk assessment and open 2 way communication, should be a first step. Do you have a SW or HV who would come with you ?
Pre schools are just that - schools. They're quite regimented and whilst they're not compulsory they do run like schools which includes monitoring attendance and punctuality. I have to fill out holiday request forms for my son if we go away or to take a day off even though it's voluntary! I agree with a pp, I think it's for their funding, so they can claim funding for your child. If they're not there all the hours the pre school claim for, they will loose money and still have to pay staff etc with less money. I agree, take a snack and go straight from the school to the preschool. If any of them needs the toilet, changing, meds, food etc can you not do it at the pre school before taking her in? I've regularly had to change dd at pre school in order to get DS there on time. Other mums stop and BF siblings in reception etc. If you really can't, I'd consider a nursery setting instead.
YANBU, DD has additional needs and they should be able to make reasonable adjustments. Could you have a formal arrangement whereby you drop her off by a later agreed specified time?
Try thinking of it another way - the sooner you deposit DD at pre school the sooner you can get off home in order to put your feet up with a brew and try to relax.
Agree with whoever said this is a Children's Centre, you shouldn't be faced with doing her blood sugar outside. It won't be impossible for someone to unlock the door so that a child with additional needs, in a family with various needs, can attend pre-school.
And complaining about her having an extra biscuit, FFS. Perhaps the staff and other children should have a session where they talk about Diabetes? I am studying Childcare and we have just done this topic. Lecturer works in a nursery and said she would do something like this where they bring in a doll that has diabetes and talk about what it has for dinner, what it can and can't do, to help the children learn about different ways of life. It is actually a good learning experience for the children!
Do you have a family support worker based at the Children's Centre? Maybe you could ask for one?
If she hates it and it is not compulsory, why do you send her?
You sound very much like you're making a lot of reasons up to justify not going at all... therefore - you've made your choice really and just want people to tell you to do it. So do it.
I don't think she'll have any problem socialising at school if you take her out of pre-school. It would make life much easier for you. My youngest never went to any groups or pre-school and had no problem when he started school...probably because he has older siblings.
I think ,under the circumstances ,you need to do whatever makes your day more manageable. Find things to do at home with her instead.
I suspect that the preschool might be finding it too difficult to deal with your DD2's extra needs and are trying to push you into withdrawing her, because I can't for the life of me see any other reason why they would be so unreasonable about insisting she is there on time given your circumstances!
I also think that you probably need those free hours to give you some respite, and some 1 to 1 time with DS2, don't you? So ideally you'd like to be able to keep her in the pre-school. But if you're not bothered about that, then perhaps it would be easier to stop pushing yourself so hard every day and take her out of pre-school.
Do you have a health visitor, or a social worker or someone like that who helps at all with the health issues that your children have to deal with? They might be able to write a letter on your behalf stating that you are already up against it and, since you say the children are just free-playing, the pre-school should be a little more flexible in your case.
I hope you can work out a plan!
I work in a preschool.
We open the doors at 9am and most children arrive then. A few also arrive at 9.30 to miss traffic or because a sibling goes elsewhere, so we have free play for half an hour or so, then register/welcome time, then free play again.
it isn't a problem.
I think they are looking for reasons to be difficult.
OP, couldn't read and not post to say sorry that you're having such a hard time.
It does sound like you think that the preschool is not interested in accommodating you/DD2. It could be that your depression and other stuff going on mean that you are perceiving what they are saying/doing as more negative than it is. (but the biscuit comment is not reassuring...).
However, ringing 2-3 times while she's there is ringing an alarm bell for me. It sounds as if you don't trust them, and they will feel that too.
So I think you need to decide whether you can trust them, or whether it is just too much for you to do at the moment. If the latter, then your decision is made.
However, I think it sounds as if you could desperately do with the chance to switch off from DD2's issues for a short time each day.
What happens when you phone up? Is everything fine, or have there often been emergencies that you needed to help with? Could you try not phoning to check for a week and see what happens?
You are pushing yourself incredibly hard with four children, most with what sounds like quite significant additional needs. Sounds like you need a break - any break - so I would suggest you think hard before withdrawing DD2 from pre-school.
I think yabu and not respecting the pre-school's rules.
I get so fed up with parents who won't commit to fully supporting their child's nursery/pre-school/school.
I get that you have a lot on your plate but you also seem to be making problems for yourself. Why not go straight to pre-school after the school drop off and kill some time there? Taking a 3 year old home and expecting to leave again very quickly is a hassle and all for the sake of a cup of tea?!
I have tried to trust them but I don't think they fully understand her conditions, they try but just don't 'get it'.
Take for the example the 1 biscuit comment, that worried me and last week when I dropped her off she was a bit on the low side I asked did they have her hypo kit to hand, they asked me what to do if she went below 4.0. They should NOT have had to ask me after having numerous training sessions. I had to explain that dd would immediately need juice or glucotabs. They wrote it down then asked should they phone be to tell me first she was low I said no, just get sugar into her quickly if it happens then phone me.
I left feeling very uneasy and anxious about leaving her but I know the only way they will learn to meet her needs is by having her there and for me to keep going over it but its so worrying.
Why haven't you written it all down for them! There should be a proper health care plan drawn up between you and the pre-school detailing exactly what to do depending on the blood results. She should have her own little box of sugary items that they know when they should give them. If things are changing on a daily basis you need to have written it all down before you arrive and then go over it with them so you and they can both be confident that her condition is being handled correctly.
There is a care plan and they have had approx six training sessions from the nurse and still don't seem to get it.
I thought they did but there was the biscuit comment, the not being sure how to treat a hypo and sometimes her blood sugar checks are not done when I ask. The more she's there the more they will learn but its very hard leaving her when I don't feel 100 percent yet.
I write a side of a5 for them each day detailing what her sugars have been, how bad her night was. What medicines she has had etc etc.
Honestly, it's stressful getting her there, you can't get there on time, they aren't able to meet her care needs, you are anxious while she's there, she doesn't want to go - is it really worth it?
Have you looked into whether any local childminders provide the funded hours?
Yabu! I was completely with you until you said you stop for breakfast!
Actually getting more and more cross about this. Your morning routine is not more important than the pre-school routine or the routine of other children who may well be disrupted by other children arriving late.
If you can't get there on time then (based on what you've written) I would assume that you don't value the (free, I assume?) place for your dd.
If you had to pay for your child's pre-school I bet you'd be there on time...
I was going to suggest a childminder. I think you need to talk to the family support worker at the children's centre ( not nec anything to do with the preschool) and work out another way you can get respite/she can get some time away.
I think you will need to be honest with a support worker and ask for help too.
On many occasions it has been kindly pointed out to me that dd2 " is not the ONLY child in the setting" when I've been trying to do her handover, that was why I changed to doing a written handover (something that I write whilst having my cup of tea).
Write it at the pre-school while you're waiting to drop your dd off?! Thing is, it's hard to be sympathetic when the solution seems so straightforward!
Hawkmoon I'm not sure you're helping OP, and it sounds like you're getting worked up over what is, after all, just words on a screen to you. Perhaps you should hide this thread?
OP - I agree with NorthernShores that talking to the wider children's centre is a good idea. Do you have social services support?
I suppose written down things may look straightforward yet they are far from it. It is so hard to express what each morning is like.
A huge huge part of the problem is my tiredness/lack of energy/motivation, that and the fact each morning can bring any number of unexpected problems that throw things completely. If one of dcs takes a bit longer to do physio or dd has a hypo or its freezing cold and pouring with rain etc.
It is never just straightforward. I wish it was.
I have just got to the point if total exhaustion. Like I said earlier I am going to try till end of term and re think then.
Once dd has stopped crying after I initially leave she does play and have fun so I do want to try if I can to keep her there.
You sound so exhausted. I would approach the meeting as an opportunity to ask if you can arrive with her earlier, in order to check her levels, etc before school. They should be able to accommodate that, or come up with an alternative.
On the other hand, I really think you should drop the preschool. She doesn't need to go, it's causing you stress and she is unhappy. How about stopping the preschool and finding some sessions (music classes, playgroups) that you can go to with her and ds later in the day. And maybe a childminder one day a week if you need the time with her out of the house. She'll be fine, she'll have some socialisation and you get to be with her and reassure yourself that she is well. It could help you to spend some time enjoying her as you do activities together. I find the grind of school run and the pain of handing my child to someone else very depressing, and I don't have any of the issues you have to deal with.
When she starts school next year they should understand that she has been at home for a while (rather than nursery or preschool) because of her medical condition and make any adjustments necessary for her.
You can't go on like this, and you can't phone up the preschool every hour to check if she is ok. It's unsustainable for you and them, and I think is a symptom of how unhappy you are with the situation.
Do they need to know what's happened the previous night etc? I'm just wondering whether there's an information overload and there is too much for them to take in that isn't relevant.
Have you thought about what's going to happen in school? Are you going to go in and test yourself to start with? Do the school have volunteers that will be willing to train up? It must be very worrying for you but it might be worth enquiring early.
Surely this all could all be solved by getting up 10 minutes earlier and having a quick slice of toast/bowl of cereal?
YABVU to expect the pre-school to bend the rules so you can a cup of tea enroute.
do the pre-school know any of this?
they can only act on the information they have
maybe by sharing all of this they might be able to help you
children's centres will have access to a whole raft of other professioanl services
The diabetes nurse said the pre school need to know everything from the night before etc. dd has other problems and they need to know how disturbed her sleep has been etc, also things like does she need the toilet (bowel problems too and gets severe pain when needs to go so I need them to be aware of everything). They need to know if she's eaten all her breakfast too as if not she's more likely to go too low.
We have had a caf assessment but still waiting to hear the outcome and if any help will be available.
When dd goes to school the school will test her much like pre school do and I will just take her home for lunch each day so that I can do her injection and either correct a high blood sugar or give her a little extra if on the low side.
It also means I will be less a noxious seeing her mid way through each day and knowing blood sugars are ok and also avoids her having the lunch play as she will not have a 1-1 and I am not happy about her being unsupervised for such a long time and possibly having a hypo .
well my kids are well past school age and I know nothing about pre school and nurseries etc so can't comment. However I feel the OP is having a very rough time of it and I think some of the comments on here have been very unkind,for goodness sake cut her a bit of slack. I must be very wearing day after day week after week dealing with what she has on her plate. I cannot offer solutions OP but I really hope things improve for you and I wish you and your family well
Agree ferretyfeet, OP had me at 4 DC - hats off to anybody who can manage 4 average DC with style and grace, let alone when any one of those 4 has additional needs.
OP - hope that CAF assessment is fruitful, it does sound like you very much need some help asap.
The arrangement you have at the moment clearly isn't working, either for you, or the nursery.
Waiting until Christmas won't actually achieve anything.
Of the nursery are telling you that it doesn't work for your dd to come in late, then you need to listen to that and respond to it.
You obviously don't agree that its a problem, or if you do see the difficulty you are causing for them then you are saying that they should deal with it and make an exception because things are tough for you. But that isn't fair on the nursery staff or the other children there if it still doesn't work for them.
You either need to take your dd out of pre school, what with it not being compulsory, or you need to figure out a way to get her there on time.
It sounds really hard OP, and it doesn't sound like the preschool are being very helpful or supportive, or even very professional ("She's not the only child in the setting" etc). For what it's worth I don't think you're being unreasonable.
I don't think you are being unreasonable AT ALL.
For goodness sake you are managing very well given the circumstances.
The nursery should be making reasonable adjustments to reduce your stress levels and accommodating a half hour later start time IS reasonable.
Even if she was at school [whilst it wouldn't be ideal] it would be within reasonable bounds for the school to allow a later start time.
It is a nursery. If they are so disrupted by a child coming in late they need to review how they do things. All that rigidity is worrying in an Early Years Setting.
If your DD's pre school was one of the ones that I work with and this came up in a review I know whose side I would be on.
I would be expected the preschool to be a lot more understanding and accommodate your particular set of circumstances.
Frankly (and sorry for the rant OP) I am becoming a little fed up of the way some settings are behaving recently.
Didn't you post last week saying you wanted to withdraw your DD? Just do it, if you don't want her there. You can take her to toddler groups to socialise. You could also look for a childminder to use your free hours.
If you really don't want to do that, your DH needs to drop your elder two at school without your help.
I'm not surprised that you're exhausted. Your mornings are obviously really hard and the staff at your child's preschool are being really inflexible and unreasonable. I can't believe that it matters that much if your dd is a bit late.
Could your dd go to private nursery instead of a preschool? I think that it would be much easier for you.
Yes I have been considering for a while taking dd out of pre school but wanted to persevere as I know she gets to do more there than at home like painting, making things etc.
No nurseries nearby have spaces so its the pre school or nowhere.
OP do you get any help from the likes of Home Start or Direct Payments?
It really sounds like you could do with some more help in the mornings, even with your DH there, you have four children to deal with and physio, health needs etc and it must be really frantic and exhausting.
If a Home Start volunteer came to help you in the mornings or if you had Direct Payments to employ a PA for one or more of your children would this help? They could take the burden of some of the routine from you or even watch DD while you get the other kids to school.
Just a thought, since I can see why you might want to keep your DD in a preschool setting for her development and socialisation etc.
In the meantime talk to preschool. Explain that DD needs to start 30 minutes later each day (non-negotiable until you get more help) and talk through what you can all do to make this routine work for everyone.
Also with pre school its completely free and even if a nursery had a space I'm not sure financially we could do it.
If dd didn't attend pre school I could take her to groups with ds2 so she would socialise but would not be away from me and she probably needs to be sometimes in preparation for school.
Have you tried seeing if any local childminders provide funded hours?
Homestart round here lost funding and shut earlier in the year so we lost our volunteer (she came once a week for 2.5 hrs and helped us get to pre school on time but only came for 5 weeks).
Caf assessment might provide some help but won't know till next meeting in early December, the lady has gone through everything with us and is trying to see what they can offer.
some private nurseries offer just the free sessions, you know
it is always worth asking them how they deliver the scheme
I don't know if any local childminders do I may try and find out but then we would have a period of them having to be trained before dd could be left and it has taken ages with pre school so it wouldn't be like dd could leave pre school and start somewhere else straightaway.
Is your dd2 going to pre school every day?
You really shouldn't feel like you have to go through all this because of starting school. It's almost a whole year away, and even then there's plenty of opportunity for your dd to get used to being away from you. If she's still only four when she starts school she can do mornings only for as long as you think is appropriate, or do only four days.
It might be that your dd would benefit from more time with you in the mornings at the groups you attend with your baby. Some children are better off staying at home for a little longer, especially when they have got a lot to cope with in their little lives.
I get so fed up with parents who won't commit to fully supporting their child's nursery/pre-school/school.
I think it is the complete opposite! The preschool needs to make reasonable adjustments to support Can'tsleep's dd.
Can'tsleep, I think you need to say to preschool that dd needs to start at a later time in order for you to manage her needs. I hope the caf is successful and you are able to sort out a 1-1. Do you have an early years support worker? It sounds like you could do with an external person to help navigate through the system and fight your corner, when you have so much on your plate, also to advise on a smooth entry to primary when the time comes.
Dd is funded for five mornings yes. I was going to cut down but caf lady said not to restrict myself to less days as if dd or other dcs were ill on that day and then things were ok on the days we had dropped that it would be a shame so she said keep the five days and go as often as possible.
She also spoke to the funding dept to make them aware of the situation and they are ok now but its just the pre school and the starting time that's still an issue.
I don't know your full situation cantsleep but it sounds like you may well be eligible for a carers assessment and certainly an assessment of need for some of your children.
Call your disabled childrens' team. They will know if you are eligible and if you are, request an assessment. This assessment is used to determine eligibility for Direct Payments and how many hours you qualify for.
We have just done this (we have one DC with additional needs and one without) and we qualify for 8 hours a week of direct payments so we can employ a PA to help out at peak times.
DS had a CAF done in our old area but I don't think it resulted in anything useful at all.
They should be more flexible given your DD's circumstances.
The CAF should illustrate the Pre school issues and a recommendation that you be given a more comfortable start time should be made as part of the assessment outcome.
I would speak to your HV or the person who lead the CAF assessment and ask them to support you in this.
Your day sounds really tough.
Don't discuss your breakfast with them. Just have them agree to a different starting time.
I'm still wondering why your DH can't drop off both the older DC, as that would seem to solve a lot of problems for you.
I think you just have to say that in order to manage your dds needs, and ensure she is in a fit state to start the morning, you would like her to start 30 minutes later. No other details necessary.
He does drop them both off we stop by dds school, she walks in the front gate and ds school is pretty much next door so we take him in then dh drives to work and I walk the five mins back to my mums unless its pouring and we have a few mins to spare dh drives a different way and drops me at my mums but that doesn't happen often as he needs to get to work.
Dcs schools and pre school are not near where we live and I don't drive so we all have to leave the house at same time in the morning.
Ah, I see. I think really you should look for a local childminder you can get to yourself. You will have so much more flexibility and if you find the right person your DD's needs will be taken care of much more. You never know, there may be a childminder around who already has experience dealing with diabetes so you wouldn't need the lengthy training period.
The issue with the Preschool is very simple to resolve.
They should just sort themselves out and stop being so unhelpful.
I can see no reason why they don't just say 'fine, see you at 9.30 instead of 9'
All of my five DCs have gone to nursery. Mostly I am super punctual. However I have had periods in my life where this is has not been possible.
When my DD was ill there was no way I could sort out her care and get DC3 to preschool at 9am every day. This was a small, independent setting.
They knew the situation. I didn't hear a single squeak of complaint from them.
When I had DC4 at nursery and had just had DC5 I would often get in a bit later. This was a different, bigger CC nursery. Again, no issue what so ever.
Nurseries and preschools have a duty of care to the children and this means they should take into account their family circumstances.
What the hell are they suggesting the OP should do? Withdraw her child?
Do they really think this will be in her best interests?
Because THAT is what they should be considering, not the slight inconvenience of having to buzz the door open a bit later than usual.
WooWooOwl - that is completely harsh. Why shouldn't an exception by made for the OP's dd seeing as she has additional needs? And as the OP says, children have an option of coming in late one day a week.
I think at your meeting you just tell them your dd needs a later start time, or ask them if you can use whatever facilities are available. Good luck
I wonder if it would be worthwhile to take a break from preschool to sort of re-focus? It sounds like it's really destroying your day and you sound so stressed and unhappy. Your DH could take the 2 older ones to school and you don't have to go anywhere. School run stress is horrendous, I have a super grumpy & screamy 5yo, some mornings she finishes me off and that is nothing to what you're dealing with! Take the pressure off yourself, you don't need it.
Also, if you have a more open day, you might be able to work out a routine with diet and meds to manage your DD's diabetes more predictably. I don't know if it's possible to do so but could be worth a try?
Good luck, I hope you can find a way to make it all work!
I can't believe some of these responses.
'Disruptive'?? It's fucking pre-school, they're not learning A level calculus. OP has already said its just free play most of the morning. I bet the other children are too busy playing to even notice the OPs dd arrive.
Why on earth should her dd miss out on pre school completely (3 hrs I'm guessing?) because she misses the first half hour.
OP, sounds like things are tough, I feel for you. But you're doing your best and that's all you can do.
Write back to the pre school and apologise for dds lateness and explain why. Then leave it at that and don't get into any further discussion. They'll have to lump it.
God I can't believe the lack of compassion these days.
And let me guess, your DP still isn't lifting a finger. Or have you left him?
Dh has in the last few months improved dramatically. The turning point I think was dd2 needing an operation and he has been very very helpful.
I think before that mil was constantly in his ear that he deserved better/needed a rest himself and since virtually all contact ceased there the improvement has been vast.
Unfortunately despite him now giving 110% the dcs problems are still overwhelming but we are trying our best to take it one day at a time.
Yes I agree with stopping preschool altogether for a while.
Dh can drop the older two off a school and you and your youngest dc can stay at home, have breakfast and a more relaxing start to the day. Is there a toddler group that you could go to a couple of times a week so she can socialise and do messy play/craft?
It sounds like dd2 is finding preschool difficult and maybe arriving late after a very hectic morning is contributing to this. Also it is not good that you are unable to trust them with her health issues.
I agree with looking for a childminder close to your own home where dd could go so you could have respite.
Or maybe dd2 could start afternoon sessions at the preschool from January (or even april when the weather is nicer) as she will be older and maybe given up her nap by then. (How far is the preschool from your own home I assume you all walk home after her preschool finishes, but is the walk from your home to preschool too long to be able to do the pm session?)
I'm really glad to hear that.
I definitely think the pre-school should be more flexible given your family's multiple additional needs. Have you asked them about an agreed, fixed later start time for your DD?
They said they want dd there on time, I explained the issues but they still insist she needs to arrive at the same time as everybody else.
On many occasions it has been kindly pointed out to me that dd2 " is not the ONLY child in the setting"
IME, a good setting makes every parent feel thier child is the most important one to them when information is being shared.
In all honesty, I wouldn't perservere. The whole thing sounds horrific.
Then you need to listen to them.
But why can't you just get there a bit early with your dd? Go straight from school? I still don't get this - it seems such a non issue...
Get there a bit early - take a book and drinks/snacks for you all. Why is that not realistic?!
Sorry if this has already been suggested, but can't your mum take her to preschool if it's only 5 mins away? Then you can relax properly and don't have to take ds out again so quickly. .
Op I think you have 2 solutions.
Either go to the childrens centre early, sit inside, eat, test dd2, read her a story or something to calm her down ready to start preschool on time.
Or get dh to drop the older children at school and stay at home with your younger dc. Look for a local childminder for respite or think about starting dd2 in preschool for pm sessions once she drops her nap.
Your current situation is not working at all. Dd2 is unsettled and unhappy. You arriving late every day isn't helping the situation so you need to change it.
No woowoo the preschool need to listen to the needs of the child. They are not doing that.
cantsleep do you have a portage worker? If you were on my list I would be on to that preschool and having a strong word.
Sounds like you need someone to talk to them on your behalf. If they won't listen to you they will probably listen to a professional.
Unfortunately some settings are like that
Even secondary schools in the midst of year 10 are required to make adjustments for children with social and medical needs.
Why a bloody pre school can't is beyond me.
She could get there on time by changing her routine but she doesn't want to because she feels the preschool are
fuckers obnoxious for making a big deal out of nothing and not being more understanding.
Has the OP stated that the late arrival at preschool is causing her DD to be unsettled?
Apologies if I have missed that.
bimba "She could get there on time by changing her routine but she doesn't want to" because she wants the pre-school to have one rule for everyone else and another for her.
That's right because she has children with SN and disabilities so it's right that the Preschool have one rule for her and different for the others
I would just tell the pre school that due to your dd's health need, she will need to start pre school half an hour later, at 9.45 a.m. I may be wrong but I think that she will be covered by the disability discrimination act which means that the pre school has to make reasonable adjustments so that she can attend.
No, we do not have a portage worker. Iam hoping that the caf assessment will lead to us getting a bit more support.
My mum cannot take dd as she works from 8am so isn't home.
Dd is not unsettled by going in late, she just hates the separation from me and would cry whatever time she was dropped off. She does calm down after I've left though. When I collect her she is very happy. I used to collect her early but pre school didn't like that either. The reason was that dds blood sugar would drop and she needed lunch earlier than the session ended. I ole tend her early then tried going there at 1130 with a packed lunch and did her injection but she took so long to eat that by time she was inished session was over!
I spent a few weeks gradually pushing her lunchtime back by frequent testing and little top up snacks and now she stays till 1215. It's just the getting there on time we can't seem to manage.
You are right Hawkmoon. There shouldn't be one rule for her and one for the others.
The Pre school should get its finger out and start meeting the needs of all of it's children.
It exists to meet their needs. That is what it is for.
What about the community nurses? Do you have one for your DD?
Sounds like the Preschool needs a kick up the arse and a reminder of its responsibilities.
Can you ask to see their diversity policy?
Do they have anything on-line.
I bet they have a poncy mission statement that says they are committed to inclusion and treating each child as an individual blah blah
I do feel that the pre school want everybody abiding by their rules no matter what.
The '1 biscuit each' rule that clearly won't work for a diabetic child
When ds was there (he had allergies) and I was told he couldn't have chocolate soya milk when the other children had cows milk as it was unfair on them ( yet it was fine to exclude ds from eating cakes when it was someone's birthday and I was told he sat in the corner sulking and crying)
The rule that dd HAS to be there on time yet on Wednesdays it is parents choice if heir dcs come at normal time and they pay extra for longer session or a bit later and don't pay extra.
When I request an extra blood sugar check over the phone for dd it is refused as they "do have other children to deal with too" and "don't want to do four bg tests in one morning"
I am probably being paranoid but I almost feel bullied and that they will not accomodate our needs if it means changing their rules/ timings.
FWIW I rarely managed to get DTs to nursery before 10.00 and they were fine with it, apart from raised eyebrow if we were any later than that. In sorry you're having this problem OP. you're doing a great job to get through all that every day. Hope that doesn't sound patronising, it sounds like a handful and you are doing the best that can be done.
IMO the nursery should be supporting the family as a whole - ie factoring whole-family issues. It should feel like a comfort and a suppoert to you. if not, id be looking at alternative options.
Diabetes nurses have been in to do the training, they have said wait and see what happens at the meeting in dec and we will take it from there as pre school just kept saying one of main issues was dd being late as its difficult for them and as soon as she arrives she needs a finger price test or snack and all the other children are engrossed in activities with their key workers.
Sounds like they might be after extra funding to provide some one to one for your DD.
This should be available.
What is so annoying is that there is nothing here that the preschool cannot sort out with a bit of willingness.
Places like that piss me off.
I tried to get in touch with early years place and the response I got was that 1-1 was unusual in a pre school as part of their core funding included something for inclusion so they should be meeting her needs already.
It really feels like too much hassle to carry on but I know when she settles she enjoys it. I always feel uneasy about her care as I'm not sure they are as vigilant as I am at home or quite understand how dangerous it is for a diabetic child with no hypo awareness. Maybe with time they will realise. It sounds awful but part of me thinks it'll take dd having a bad hypo and fainting for them to sit up and take notice.
The pre school sound awful. You sound exhausted. I would just take her out. Plenty of children go to school without going to pre school first and get on fine.
Have you thought about getting an insulin pump? My friend's DS has had one from about 18 months old. It seems to make their life a lot easier. Interestingly her eldest is also CMP allergic.
1-1 should definitely be available at preschool. Ds is one of 3 children at his preschool who have a full time 1-1 ( he does 9 hours, but 1-1 is available for 15) he also has arrived later than other children on may occasions, and left earlier. The preschool have worked with me and the professionals involved in his care to best meet his needs.
It really does sound as though you need someone who can act as an advocate, because the preschool are not listening to you or doing what is best for your child.
We have considered a pump but not sure at present we can give it 100 percent due to other dcs problems and I would need to really concentrate as I'm rubbish with technology. Def something for the near future though as we would also like her to have a continuous glucose monitor too to reduce the need for finger tests but still alert us to lows as she has no hypo awareness.
I think I will speak to preschool again tomorrow and try to arrange that dd just goes at a different time. If it was agreed it would make things much less stressful.
Just an aside: the children's school and preschool aren't near your home, and your husband has a fairly long commute.
Would it help everything if you moved?
I know moving is a big stress in itself and may not be financially possible - but long term, this might really help.
I'm not sure about the nursery. They sound totally unhelpful to the point of being deliberately so.
However, the odd thing you say makes it sound like you're not always helpful either. Like your son's chocolate soya milk. Unflavoured soya milk is available, I can see why they wouldn't have wanted him having chocolate milk. I get that he missed out on cakes, but I think the way to handle that would have been to send in some allowed treats for him to have when others had cake. Not try to balance it with chocolate milk at other times, which causes difficulty with other kids AND wouldn't have addressed him missing out on cake when that was happening. So perhaps you have to look where you CAN fit the rules.
But I'm angry for you that they seem not to have a handle on her diabetes.
Two things - it's concerning that they don't seem vigilant and seem determined not to make any allowances for DDs needs. Very odd and officious and lacking in empathy.
Secondly pre school isn't compulsory and is mostly free play. Its not like school. You are coping really well considering what you have to deal with. Taking care of yourself (having a quick rest/breakfast) is important. If that small thing helps you cope, just do it.
Can you give the staff a stash of haribo in small packets to store. If the cakes are bought out, he can have his own treat.
It wasn't chocolate milk just to be difficult, we tried the normal one and ds didn't like it and we were desperate for him to have some sort of milk so tried the chocolate one which he loved. Sometimes he chose water, other times soya milk.
Two things - it's concerning that they don't seem vigilant and seem determined not to make any allowances for DDs needs. Very odd and officious and lacking in empathy.
Secondly pre school isn't compulsory and is mostly free play. Its not like school. You are coping really well considering what you have to deal with. Taking care of yourself (having a quick rest/breakfast) is important. If that small thing helps you cope, just do it.
Tried that but they said no haribo allowed at pre school, something to do with pork gelatine.
Ok, so there are kosher Haribo you can buy. One of my student's parents know where. I'll aSk her for you if you like?
Thankyou that would be helpful.
They are being unreasonable and discriminatory.
I don't believe their inclusion policies would support their inflexibility.
I would use the December meeting as a way of getting them to sort themselves out. Maybe have a chat with your HV. Portage usually stops at 3 yo sadly, but someone might be able to do a short piece of work with your dd as they haven't been involved before.
If it's a stress in the meantime. Maybe Either have them agree to an earlier start (with you being there) or just keep her home on days you can't manage it. As you say, it's not compulsory. Be kind to yourself.
The vanilla soya milk just looks like it's plain milk. You could try that. DS's nursery were very good and always had dairy free chocolate buttons to give him if the others were getting cake although they banned birthday cakes altogether eventually.
Part of the problem from the pre schools POV could be that your dd is missing out on circle time or whatever by being there late.
They might be in a position where they genuinely can't be flexible without it being detrimental to the whole group, and that goes beyond reasonable adjustment.
In the pre school I used to work in we very much did free flow, but there was still some kind of structure to the session. A child arriving late would have missed the bit where we talk about the date and do a register and that kind of thing. It was only five minutes sitting, and children weren't forced to do it, but if they were never there then they would never have the opportunity to participate in that part of the day, which was one of the things that really does make a difference to children settling at school.
A distressed child who then arrives after that is not only missing out on a learning opportunity, they are also taking a member of staff away from other children who are engaged in an activity and who need adult support to get the most from it.
In my experience, it's really not as simple as just 'making an exception' because making that exception has detrimental consequences both to the child that is late and the others.
I have seen plenty of children become unsettled because of another child being distressed, and because of parents turning up in the middle of the session. It does happen, and it's really not fair on those very small children to dismiss it as if it is unimportant.
I think we need more information from the pre school about exactly why they find it disruptive. They may well have a valid point, but depending on how they structure their sessions, they may not.
It does sound like they are not being helpful in ways that they could be. The milk thing is one of those issues that there are ways round if they want to be creative. So is the issue with the biscuits. They should be making more effort in those departments. In this case it sounds like both the nursery and the parent need to compromise, for the benefit of all the children, but that means give and take on both sides, not just a blanket insistence that the pre school staff have to do what the parent wants.
Maybe agreeing a time, albeit a late one would work. And if OPs dd hasn't arrived by a given time, then they can know not to expect her. It could be that the most difficult thing for the pre school is that they don't know what time OP is going to arrive each day which is making it impossible for them to plan properly.
Maybe going to pre school on the flexible day and choosing two other mornings would work better. Many children don't do every day until a term before they start school anyway.
I don't believe for a minute that it is detrimental to other children if one child is late and I doubt that it has much of an effect on the late child. I don't think it will do a child any harm to miss the register or the bit where they talk about the date either.
The pre school are just being difficult because it is inconvenient for them to have a child with diabetes. They need to get a grip and stop being so inflexible.
Settings vary greatly, as do the children within them.
What might be a minor issue in one setting might be a major issue in another, with both of them being excellent settings that just do thing differently.
I don't think any of us can say for certain whether it would or wouldn't be a problem for this setting unless we work there.
And I strongly disagree that missing circle time won't have much effect. Whether it does or it doesn't depends on the input a child gets at home, and I'd have said that a child who has a very busy home life dealing with their own issues as well as those of two siblings and a baby needs it more than most.
Sorry WooWooOwl, but that is just not right.
As an example, my ds has every right to attend preschool, he needs to attend preschool it s beneficial to his development and we needed to build up gradually to him going to primary. He has chronic separation anxiety, and so i attended the first 2 terms with him, we then had short periods of me leaving, on these sessions we would arrive late, I would leave him, he would scream for the entire time i was away and when i arrived back he would collapse asleep on my lap so we would leave early. He missed circle time altogether.
We have eventually got to a point where I drop off a little after the time all the other children arrive, he will scream the place down, but now settles down after a few minutes, and last week for the first time ever he lasted a whole session, although had to sit out circle time in the book corner.
This has all happened very slowly, and with lots of discussions with the preschool staff, who have made lots of adjustments to suit ds. Children have to learn that not everyone can do the same things that they do, that a child may need a special chair or a certain drink (there is in fact a little boy there who has a carton of chocolate soya milk - no fuss from anyone), or that some children can't cope with sitting on the mat, or that some children may scream in certain circumstances. The preschool have to work out ways to help support these children, as well as all the other children. It is called inclusion.
It probably is a problem for the staff if a child arrives late but they need to deal with it as by law they have to make reasonable adjustments for children with chronic health conditions.
As for circle time, what evidence do you have that missing it will have a detrimental effect? My eldest dd went to a private nursery before starting school. Children arrived at various different times and there was no circle time. This did not seem to have dire consequences for dd or any of her nursery friends when she started school many years ago. I think that some pre schools are a bit precious about this kind of thing. The main point of pre school is surely that the child can socialise with other children before starting school?
I agree that a child arriving late wont be detrimental to the others there.
Some preschools are filled with their own self importance but forget preschool ing is not compulsory. Educational welfare officers won't be knocking on a 3 year olds door!
I agree with Mrs Devere.
I think when you have the meeting with pre-school it might be helpful to have your hv or advisory teacher for the pre-school with you (would parent partnership help?). I would focus on finding a way to help dd2 into pre-school, such as having a member of staff available at a set time you agree she starts. Could this be part of her care plan?
You might want to repost on sn boards as more specialist knowledge.
cantsleep I have a child with sn who started pre-school with no support, despite not walking & only communicating with signs. I am completely with you about pre-school "not getting it". I think some posters on here are not getting it too. You and your dd are entitled to more support and compassion from pre-school.
I think the point about the op having breakfast is misleading as doesn't she sort out her dds blood sugar too.
Our pre-school now gets it and dd2 is thriving. We also arrive later as pre-school changed its start times from 9:15 to 9am and I cannot get from dd1's school to pre-school in that time. They are fine about it.
Dd2 has her own drink, diluted juice (under orders of paed) too. I was very clear that when she started she couldn't manage an open cup and and needed diluted juice for bowel problems.
Pre-school need to see you are not being difficult, but they have to accomodate the needs of your child.
As for circle time, what evidence do you have that missing it will have a detrimental effect?
I don't have evidence, but I have enough common sense to realise that if circle time is the only time a child will ever be spoken to about what day it is or that months even exist, then if they don't have that then they are going to be at a disadvantage to their peers when they start school.
This sort of thing may or may not be relevant to the OP, it depends on how much of that sort of thing she does at home on whether its going to make a difference to her child or not.
Like I've already said, different settings operate in different ways, and what is irrelevant in one might not be relevant in another.
Obviously, I agree that the nursery need to be flexible enough to meets the needs of the OPs dd. There is no question about that. But there may be more than one way of accommodating that.
It seems to me that in this situation, the ideal would be that OP is allowed to arrive at the children centre early and use the kitchen facilities there. A reasonable adjustment could also be that a member of staff is made available early to do the BG check with OP so that less of a handover is needed, and OPs dd would be ready to start the session with everyone else. Something like this could be more inconvenient for them than a crying child arriving late and then needing a handover because they might not currently have the staff available to accommodate it, but if it would work for both the setting and the parent then they should be doing everything possible to make it happen.
There needs to be give and take on both sides, and there is often more than one way of solving a problem. So the OP needs to have a meeting with the staff and be open to their suggestions, as well as ensuring that they are open to hers and are listening to her.
Reasonable adjustment doesn't mean that the parent gets to dictate stuff to suit them if it's not of any direct benefit to the child.
Flexibility and offering different solutions. That's where a sn advisor for the pre-school would help. They have experience of lots of settings & can advise with funding too.
Definitely worth looking at help with transport for older dcs, that might release burden on you.
I don't have evidence, but I have enough common sense to realise that if circle time is the only time a child will ever be spoken to about what day it is or that months even exist, then if they don't have that then they are going to be at a disadvantage to their peers when they start school. This sort of thing may or may not be relevant to the OP, it depends on how much of that sort of thing she does at home on whether its going to make a difference to her child or not.
Exactly, it may not be at all relevant to the OP's child. For many (probably most) the main point of pre school is that they socialise with other children away from their parents. It is ridiculous to suggest to the OP keeps her dd at home rather than miss registration and "circle time".
I would be surprised if any preschool did circle time at 9am.
It would be the most impractical time of the day to get 3 year old to sit down and listen. Even if all the families are super punctual (and I doubt that they are), trying to arrange children in a group whilst coats are being taken off and parents are saying goodbye, some of the children are getting upset and others are raring to go, would be like herding cats. WHY would any setting want to do that?
Also if circle time was the only opportunity in the day for a child at preschool to do any of those things, I would be changing my preschool pronto.
Agree with Mrs DV
How did it go today OP? did you talk to them?
Mine used to do it first thing after the parents left without any problems. In fact, it worked well as a short time to do registration, and gave children time to settle without any hustle and bustle.
Either way, it was just a suggestion that OPs dd might be missing out on something that happens first thing, which she might well be.
Registration is generally done as children walk through the door in the setting that I work with.
I can't think of any that have a strict start time either. It seems to cause more trouble if everyone turns up bang on 9 and tries to get in to settle their children.
How old are your children woowoo?
I only ask because I have DCs ranging from 3-21 and there have been lot of changes to early years and schools in that time.
What is your DH doing to help in the morning??
Im sorry but reading this is making me quite cross and not at the OP but at the Pre-School as they are failing in the care of your child
I work at a Nursery/Pre-School and i have a diabetic child as one of my key children and it is my responsibility to check his blood when he comes in and then half an hour before lunch check his blood again and give the correct amount of insulin and then ensure that he eats his lunch it takes maybe 15 minutes total including washing hands etc to do the blood prick twice and the insulin which is nothing it doesn't take up a lot of my time and the other staff are just aware to ensure he doesn't eat a lot of snack or any grapes because of the sugar content
I spend more time doing the activities that are required for SALT or for the 2 year old checks the health visitor has forgot to do than i do spending time with the child who is diabetic
Your Pre-School need a stern talking to because it is ridiculous that they are failing in the care of your child and if they feel they cannot cope with your child's needs than they need to look at how they manage the staff and the needs of the other children because if they can't manage something as simple as Diabetes than i hope they do not have any children in their care who have complex needs
Also with the arrival times just state that because the EYFS is free play and free flow based it does not matter when you arrive and if they give you any lines about school preparedness just tell them that the EYFS goes up to the end of reception so its free flow based then as well
There's more than one way of running a three hour pre school session that works well.
My children are well past the pre school days, but I work in early years.
In that case you should understand how flexible early years settings need to be in order to make them work and be accessible to children with a variety of needs.
I don't really see why it matters if she is late. It doesn't disrupt that's silly. They are usually playing anyway. I think they need to be understanding of her special needs.
cantsleep how are you today?
When is the meeting with the pre-school, have you got someone who can come with you? A professional would probably help, hv or is there an sn advisor for your pre-school that they would have to listen to.
Of course I understand that setting need to be flexible, that much gies without saying.
But I find it hard to believe that they are having meetings and sending out letters identifying a problem with the lateness if there isn't one. It seems likely that there is more to this story than just a pre school being difficult, and we only have one side of the story.
OP has said nothing about why the pre school have an issue with it, and it would help to know because it might be something that could be easily overcome without causing OP such a major problem.
I think they need to be understanding of her special needs.
Of course they do. But if they've had the training and they know what they're doing with diabetes management then there's no reason they can't accommodate those needs within the session time.
I realise OP has said she doesn't fully trust them, but that's a separate issue entirely from the lateness, so irrelevant to what I'm saying.
Ops dd doesn't need to be late because of her diabetes, she's late because of the time that OP has to leave the house to get her older children to school. The BG check that OP does before she gets to pre school could be done there, with the staff, which would also have the benefit of there being less to handover and more time to do it in.
But the op says
We have only been on time once, and from that I saw that there is no welcome time just in the door and straight into playing so I don't think it makes the big difference that they are assaying it does, in fact it seems easier to take dd later when all the other children settled as I can then speak to her key worker and do the daily handover a bit easier.
She also does her blood sugars when she is at her mums. The thing is if the later arrival works, then why does it matter so much to the preschool?
Also I don't know if I am just exceptionally lucky, but the 3 preschools and 2 primaries that my children have attended (and will attend in Sept) have always taken into account family circumstances. For example ds has to go to a hospital appointment tomorrow, it will take us and hour and a half to get there, so we are picking both girls up at 2.30, at the suggestion of the school. They have been amazing about supporting my dd's when their brother has been in hospital etc.
We did not go today, dd had a hypo (she had refused to eat all of her breakfast) and then ds2 fell off a chair and bit his tongue so the morning was a disaster. Planning on speaking to pre school tomorrow.
The letter they sent stated that "the main issue is dd2s late arrival.this makes it difficult for staff to instigate a routine and she always arrives distressed. The first thing that has to be done is usually a finger prick test or snack. This is disruptive as the other children are all engrossed in activities already and dd2s key worker is not always available.
Dd2 does not want her mother to leave and gets very upset. Mother is understandably anxious that dd2 will not then eat her snack and may be unwell. In addition to this mother phones during the session 2-3 times."
The letter was a copy of one the pre school had sent to diabetes team and had copied to me as well.
ok , but fi you were able to do the test and administer a snack before 9am then the "disruption" might be avoided. Ask them to set aside space in which you can reasonably do this. They are putting forward problems , offer them solutions supported by the nurse and hv, and use their concerns as ammunition for one to one at the review meeting.
What did you think about arriving half an our earlier and doing the checks there /having a snack yourself?
It is difficult as I could do a check at 9 am and dd may be fine, sometimes she is a bit on the high side so wouldn't need a snack but occasionally she drops very quickly ( we have had her go from 16.9 to 2.2 in half an hour before and she has no hypo awareness so its really hard).
I've tried to explain to them but I sometimes phone and ask what her bg levels have been and they have not done them as "she looks fine" aaaarrrrrggggghhhh-trying to explain that just because she looks fine doesn't mean she is, she has been 3.2 before and seems fine and we've caught it by chance, other times she just faints but they don't seem to understand that the disruption of finger pricks or starting snack time early is nothing in comparison to the disruption dd having a bad hypo would cause.
Reading between the lines of their letter and from what I've seen when I've been there I think they really mean:
" having a child here with additional needs is too much hard work for us. We want everybody here at the same time and engrossed in activities so we can all sit at various tables or chat to each other and not really have to do very much. We don't want to start snack time early for just one child as then all the others ask for a snack too, we are hoping that by huffing and puffing a lot when can't sleeps dd arrives and can't sleep dictates to us that her dd needs a test and snack immediately that she might just decide at some point to give up coming."
A letter from your DD's paediatrician to the preschool is needed. She should have a written care plan for her condition too?
Your instinct may be right but I still think you need to give them an opportunity to agree an action plan with you and you to give them the space to work with you to manage it, otherwise it will become more of an issue when she starts school and your dd will be the one to lose out. You can also use their concerns and misunderstandings to give weight to your argument for a statement and LSA.
I am not are why dds diabetes is so hard to deal with , some days after having same insulin dose and same amount of food she is high, other days needs constant topping up as keeps dropping to low blood sugars. Wondering if her ratios of insulin to carbs needs adjusting
Some days when I take her they are so 'off' I feel like I have to be apologetic explaining if she's a bit low and will need her snack early. All the criticism over the time I get there just makes me feel like they just want to make things harder not easier.
And I did my utmost over the last few weeks to gradually get dds lunchtime to slightly later so that I could collect her at the end of the session at 1215 rather than collect early at 1130 as they were moaning about that too. They don't seem to notice the effort I'm making and that I've changed things.
Ok, now that you're explaining things a bit more clearly, I can understand the problems with the setting more easily.
I was under the impression that they had written a letter to you to complain about the lateness, when actually they were informing the diabetes team of the situation. That makes it different, because they weren't complaining to you, they were informing someone else. They shouldn't have felt the need to miss out the information about the lateness and the problems they are having establishing a routine in their communications.
There is no reason why they shouldn't have snacks available for all the children throughout the whole session. Having fruit sat on a table with a couple of chairs so that it's available for every child, but particularly your dd is probably one of the easiest things ever that could be done for the sake of inclusion.
The battle you are having about the checking being done, or not being done, is one the diabetes team should be fighting for you, albeit with your support.
But I can understand that the pre school will find it hard to drop everything for your dds arrival when shes upset along with a test and a snack if they don't even know what time you will be turning up each day.
There has to be a compromise here somewhere, but I think the nursery need to give you confidence in their ability to deal with your dds health needs first.
I can see that if you drop off half an hour late, with a distressed child who then needs checks, then ring three times in two hours and then pick up 45 mins early that it might not be straigtforward for a fixed hour setting (as opposed to a flexible nursery) to manage without an extra helper or a plan in place.
I can see why that might be disruptive. The hard bit will be coming up with a plan you can both work with.
You initially said arriving late was due to you having breakfast and a cup of tea -if thats what you're telling them it won't help.
OP I have read through your whole thread and I suspect your latest post sums up the key issue - they don't actually want to deal with a child with her needs.
They have received training, they have been provided with a care plan, it should be a straightforward thing for them to manage, as orange says upthread - but clearly it is not.
I can understand a certain degree of frustration with daily random lateness, if they never quite know exactly when your DD will arrive. But why can they not just agree with you that DD will 'officially' start a half hour later? They would then be able to plan for it, her keyworker could at that point go through things with you (surely easier for her to do that with all the other children settled to activities, rather than you trying to do it at the start of the session with all the other parents and children faffing about?) and it would relieve the daily stress on you to a certain extent.
The thing is you are not being late because you're disorganised or disrespectful. You are late because several of your children have complex medical needs. Your DD needs typical preschool routines adapted for her because of said medical needs. They shouldn't be making things this hard for you!
Exactly i agree with dietcokeandwine just tell the Pre-School that you will start at half past and thats when they should expect you and if the key worker can not get organised enough to plan her time accordingly it is not your fault and they may want to look at some additional training for her/them
I have a child that leaves 30/40 minutes before the end of the session because the parent has to go across town and pick up her brother so i make sure all bits are ready for when she goes and that she doesn't start anything major or too messy while she waits to be picked up its not a hardship it's all part of my role of being a key worker to know the individual needs of the children i look after and plan and adapt my ways of working for them to get the best out of it and to cause them and their parents as less stress and worry as possible
We get there at 945 its not a different time each day, I really am trying, the cup of tea is just a s,all part of the morning and what I do in between school and pre school its also checks, maybe a snack for dd, brush their teeth and hair etc if I haven't already jut things like that. I mentioned the tea as I feel that I sit down to drink it and write the handover and I'm so tired that after that I'm slow to get going again.
Dd is nw always collected at end of session not early anymore.
cantsleep I think the cup of tea and bit of breakfast thing is kind of irrelevant to be honest. It's just the one tiny thing that you manage to do for yourself in between managing all the other multiple demands on you, and as you say you're writing a handover plan even as you're drinking the tea - so it's hardly like you're sitting there with your feet up.
I just feel defeated, I know its hard getting dd there and she has separation anxiety and medical needs but I so want her to play and socialise so I'm trying to persevere.
Pre school keep saying how they've had the training etc etc and I don't need to phone as much but then I lose all confidence in them when they try to limit her food not adjust it depending on her blood sugar, ask how to treat a hypo or don't check her when she needs checking as " she looks ok".
Oh cantsleep you need some
I know exactly how you feel, we had dd2's paed start statutory assessment as she was appalled at lack of support. We now have statement, and 1:1. Would your paed or diabetes nurse get on the case of pre-school if they are not following the care plan?
The care plan has not been adjusted to allow for the fact that dd now has no hypo awareness, but even so I don't think they have really grasped the basics. To be fair we didn't know much about diabetes at the beginning but learnt quickly.
I am hoping that if I keep explaining, do detailed handovers etc that they may just get used to it and it will be easier for me to leave dd knowing she is being well looked after.
It might be the meeting is to actually help you and help little one...
Have you contacted the diabetes team to ask what they think about this letter they've received? It does seem pretty wet and whingy to me, but I'm not an expert.
Is this a council-run setting? I may be mis-remembering, but I think there are stronger positive duties on public bodies to include disabled people...
I know it's wrong, but do you really want your DD somewhere that she's not particularly welcome, you don't have faith that they look after her properly & it causes this level of stress?
As stated, it is wrong & they should make reasonable adjustments, but at the same time your mental health is more important.
orry realised only read first page didn't realise there was 12
If you want to do a detailed handover every day, and your dd requires additional support throughout the session to monitor her blood sugar levels, and you want someone to respond to the phone 2 or 3 times during a 2.5 hour session, then you need to work with the nursery, the diabetes team and your consultant to apply for 1 to 1 support for your dd. Ratios in nurseries and pre-schools simply do not allow for this level of care for one child. Depending on the qualification levels of the staff, ratios will be either 1 adult to 13 children, or 1 adult to 8 children. I can absolutely see that both you and your dd require extra support so please work speak to your CAF co-ordinator and see if an extra meeting can be called early. This will give everyone a chance to get together and talk through all the issues and look for solutions.
I've been involved with running a pre-school, and yours sounds awful. Are there any alternatives? I'd withdraw her and write a letter of complaint to whoever is the statutory body (am in Scotland so not sure who it is elsewhere). Do you have a copy of their policies?
LittleFish they are required to do what CantSleep & the diabetes team is asking....
Because they have previously NOT done it and the consequences are potentially LIFE THREATENING Can'tSleep is a little anxious.
Christ I am like this with my son's ASD and it's not going to make ill, get him excluded possibly but not ill...
CantSleep - that said you need to take ownership of the issue and start coming up with solutions...
* Use the CC for your breakfast stop and settle DD there before her session
* Design and print out a form for you and staff to fill in every day - that way you save time & staff know a) what they are expected to do and b) you know they have done it
Otherwise you are going to continue to alienate them, be at battleheads with them and ultimately DD will suffer.
Take it from someone who has been in a similar situation many, many times... I am more savvy these days but still get warnings about 'your anxiety..,' and I smile sweetly and sort it whilst thinking
'well if you actually got on with what the professionals tell you to do rather than banging on about how he couldn't possibly be autistic because he talks to people then we might get somewhere'
Sorry OP it will get worse at school so you are going to have to find a way to manage it...
And when you do - give me the heads up because there are still days I am shit at it
I agree that it sounds as though your dd desperately needs a 1-1.
I've got 4 children too and 2 of them have additional needs. Is there a breakfast club at any of your DC's schools? My DH started taking our older 2 DC's to breakfast club on his way to work and that has been a big help.
Can you get someone from the diabetes team to talk to the pre-school again. If they are dismissing you as a paranoid mum (although I know you're not) then they might listen to a professional.
YY you need the diabetes team on your side. If the pre-school are not doing the blood prick tests (?) that they are supposed to and not adjusting her snacks accordingly they are putting her at risk. They are not taking it seriously enough. I think you need the professionals' clout for them to take it seriously.
Is there an advisory teacher from the council who works with the pre-school? Ours was invaluable in getting pre-school to see that they were lacking in their duty of care and I wasn't being paranoid but was concerned about dd's vulnerability without extra support. I also wrote a terse letter to the (then) pre-school manager backed by a meeting with our paediatrician.
3 years old ! your dd has the rest of her live to work out a routine. For 5,6 yo: yes, start schhol on time. but 3yo? your dd is still a toddler.
we were ALWAYS 20-30 min late to preschool . the dc were 4 - older than yours and with no SN. The teachers sensibly factored the age into the daily program with the loose play time at the begining of the day.
Teachers meticulous planning loose play - sounds like a recipe for anxiety.
Has life always been this stressful? If so, why have 4 kids? I would have stopped at 2 or 3.
The reason I ask is because I have 2 and DH and I are contemplating #3. But if I was as stressed as you sound, there's no way I would stretch to 3 and 4.
No, it was not always this stressful. We were just coping with the health problems they had but when dd2 was dx with diabetes dc4 was 8 months old so a bit late to send any of them back!
Womble, that's just mean Ffs, ok is having a really hard time without you telling her, she shouldn't of had more. lets just hope, life doesn't bite you
hard on the ass.
Agree with comemulled
wombles fyi lots of health issues don't present during pg, or at birth or even in the early years fgs
Nice to have a crystal ball on hand, is it Womble? So you can tell what will happen with your children?
Have a bit of compassion FGS!
I haven't read your other thread but clearly there's a lot on your plate and I'm sorry life's so tough at the moment.
Personally I think you should get out of there before you get fully labelled and the attention switches from meeting your child's needs, to you.
Because it sounds to me like regardless of the rights and wrongs of you being late, pre-school are doing the classic we think the child looks fine, and we need your child to be the same, and we're the professionals in these matters therefore our opinion overrides parents, care plans, sen statements, and anything else you throw at us that threatens us and our way of doing things, because we know what does and doesn’t matter.
What I did want to let you know for the future (as I doubt you'd please your pre-school with them!) is IKEA are doing vegetarian (so no pork gelatine) harribo and similar veggie sweets. (hopes loads of people will buy them so they become a permanant source)
Managed to get dd2 to pre school at 930 am today, as usual she screamed but I gave her key worker the handover note and mentioned a couple of other things.
Pre school checked her when they said they would and her blood sugars were ok throughout the morning.
The manager was in the office busy so couldn't speak with her today but I will try tomorrow
Op it sounds to me like your pre-school really don't want to help. Yes, it's unsettling for the adults to have to do something differently and not follow a routine that's comfortable for them but a child's medical needs need to come first. It may mean a change in routine for the whole setting for the sessions your dd is. Sometimes things are going to need to be done in a different way so that all children can be included instead of excluded.
The staff aren't inspiring your confidence in their ability to properly care for your dd's needs so it's not at all surprising you're feeling anxious and needing to check on her while she's in their care. It will disrupt the session but you need to know you can trust them to monitor dd's condition correctly and react as needed. They have been trained and are responsible for a little girl who could become very unwell very quickly, so should understand what needs to be done without checking with you.
If they wanted to they could easily accommodated dd's needs without it being detrimental to the other children's development and care but it would mean change for them on a big scale. Currently it sounds like they are trying to fit dd into what they have always done, not ensure she is able to access their core provision and have her needs met. She is becoming a problem to them because they are making her the problem.
I started work in a nursery that had done things the same way for 14 years. The routine was pinned on the wall and everything about it was done the same way as when it first opened. Children's snacks, lunches, free play, creative, physical, sleep ect was all approached in the same way. When new children started with us they were conditioned to fit in with the nursery routine. Because of this the staff who had done things the same way all their working life and liked having lunch at the exact same time, getting their coffee at x point past each hour and doing things the way they always had. It worked fine until a child was enrolled in the nursery who couldn't function within the established routine. Things had to be done difirently for that child to be able to access the provision.
Sometimes it isn't just a case of changing what is done slightly. Things might need overhauling completely. This is what had to happen in the nursery I was in. Snack time had to change and run for 90% of the session. Time had to be made to do medication or testing at a set time. Staff had to take breaks and lunch on a rota, not all together. Children's lunches were approached diffrently. Extra trips were made to the toilet. The children were still doing the activities and using the equipment as they had always done but what the staff did was different. All the children were happy, learning and well cared for as they'd always been. But the adults had to adapt and for lots of them it was uncomfortable.
So yes the staff at the pre-school have other children to look after as well as dd. But with a little more flexabilty it can all be done. If I was looking after your dd I'd personally be greatful for the chance to get the full handover from you without feeling like I needed to rush you to talk with other parents, I would just need to make sure I was able to manage my time and work load to be free at your regular drop off time.
Personally I would encourage you to go straight to the pre school as others have and do what you need to do there. But I'd expect you to be able to do it in the pre school room so your dd has time to settle with you there and you can do blood sugar and eat together. It would probably be very inconvient for the preschool and make them encourage a late drop off or magically make things easier for you. For some children it might ease the separation angsity and make them keen to attend so more willing to eat breakfast/help you leave on time. But only you know what dd is like and what is best for you in your personal situation.
Perhaps ask the manager to surgest things the pre school could do to help you, for example allowing you in early to sort out dd's snacks and blood sugar so she's ready to go as/when other children arrive. Also if you have the strength or time to do so think about what they could do to help you feel less anxious and build trust. Would it help if the manager made time to phone you each morning for a few weeks to let you know that the blood sugar reading has been done. Can you write down circumstances in which you'd like to be phoned if dd has a problem. Or if staff could reflect their understanding back to you in conversation; so if she has low blood sugar I'll make sure she has some juice and someone phones you. Could they create a home school book for your morning handover notes. Talk you through their plans to manage dd's condition. If you can show willingness to trail things for a short period to see if they work for you.
You must feel in some ways this is more trouble than it's worth. But your dd is enjoying activities that she doesn't get the chance to do at home. With the support of the pre school it has the potential to be a really positive place and experience for her. Even without her medical problems it would be perfectly normal for her to get upset when you leave. Helping a child deal with that is part of working in the early years. I do wonder if it would be helpful for dd to have a real clear routine in the pre school because if she could be finding it stressful if testing her sugar levels isn't done in a consistent way.
When I looked after a child her age with diabetes the nurse who trained us all came in a helped to test the blood sugar levels of all the children in the room. It made the management of that child a none event afterwards. Things like short stories were planed around when we needed to do sugar levels in such a way the child could still be involved and given snacks ect as need, sometimes as much as 8 or 9 times on a long day.
wickedwith what a helpful post.
Lots of really good ideas for to take to pre-school. I think you need to bring lots of alternatives to pre-school rather than feel they are telling you off.
I do know what it's like to not feel safe leaving your child, but I think coming with lots of possible solutions will shift any meeting towards a win-win situation.
Thankyou so much, reading your post has really helped me and given me some good ideas to take with me when I speak to pre school.
Really appreciate the advice everybody has given.
Just another thought, one I really hope you don't need. But if you do find it too much to try and get things sorted with the pre school, look at the nurseries that you'd be able to get to. Book appointments to view and be honest about the problems you're having and ask what support they could provide. If they feel able to cope they may take dd as an exceptional circumstance allowing her to bypass any waiting list. The nursery I worked in did this several times when there was medical need or a 'behaviour' issue. It's how I encountered the first diabetic child I worked with.
But I hope you do get into a situation you're happy with the pre school. It sounds like none of you need any more upheaval in your life.
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