to be very cross with a teenager who wouldn't get up for the remembrance service this morning(90 Posts)
And tell her she needs to give up guides as she can't meet her obligations?
Is it her time of the month.
I would be cross that she had said she would be there and was too lazy to get up. That applies to anything really. Is it a regular thing that she does this? Is there a reason she wouldn't get up like was she up late last night?
I wouldn't ban her from guides but I would say that of this happens again you will remove her from the unit as she's letting down the other girls, the leaders, and the people from the church who I usually find make a lot of effort to include the girls.
You know, I think YABU. Her decision this morning is the result of years' of parenting and educating about what is significant about Remembrance Sunday.
No, not her time of the month, and personally I wouldn't accept that as an excuse. I don't get out o work/making dinner when it's mine.
Is under obligation to go to Remembrance Sunday?
You don't actually have to go and stand with a bunch of other people & take part in a service in order to "remember". I didn't.
Is it an obligation?
My DD is very very involved in Guiding as both leader and member.
She has never attended church on Remembrance Sunday. For various reasons - religious, social, political - she does not feel that she wishes to do so. Nobody has ever made a big deal out of it.
She attends a unit which is supported by the church. They are expected to take part in the parade.
If she has made a committment to already attend and didn't bother then I would be cross with her.
If she hasn't then YABU
I've had the same discussion with my 12 year old DD this morning.
She is a Scout and it is absolutely expected that you attend Remembrance Day parade as part of being a member of our Scout group. If they want to take part in all the fun stuff they do, then they have to take part in the less fun stuff too as well. It's one morning out of her life
My 8 year old Beaver has gone without all the fuss my eldest did
Absolutely. My scout DS is made to do the church events as well as the fun camping and hiking ones. He's not allowed to cherry pick.
All scout activities, or none.
She made a commitment and she didn't go, letting down the other guides.
She is in Guides - and needs to s how up to form the parade.
DS was in Beavers, Cubs , Scout s - and many a time there were only a handful of members show up for parades. It is usually only a couple of hours out of their day.
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
Oh leave her alone! She has to get up early for school every week day which is hard for a teenager's body clock.
YA probably NBU IMO. Do you know what time she got to sleep? Might she have been on her phone in her bed till very late?
Maybe she doesn't agree with it. Have you asked her why or just assumed she's lazy
"She has to get up early for school every week day which is hard for a teenager's body clock."
Well hopefully the Guiders will have words with those who didn't attend.
I know they always got a reminder in Scouts about the importance of these events- usually only two per year -St George's Day and Remembrance Sunday. It's not too much to ask.
As a parent of 2 atheist ex Scouts I'm on the fence on this one. My policy was to allow my dss to be 'away' on Church parade weekends. I didn't really see why they had to follow the religious doctrines of the C of E in order to be good Scouts.
What are her reasons? (Moral or laziness?)
DD (8) had an active part of the Remembrance Service this year as a Brownie. Her troop were standing at the front, reading the names of the men of the village who were killed on active service. DD named one from WWI and someone she 'knew' (father of a school friend) who was killed last year. It was very emotional. Had she not have gone she would have let down the rest of the Brownie Troop, all of whom count on each other being there.
I am very proud of all the girls, 6-8 years old, that were well behaved, clear and solemn as the occasion warranted.
I agree with you OP. If DD had tried this, I would have stopped Brownies immediately (assuming she doesn't pay her own subs, trickier if she does) If you make a commitment, you stick to it.
Do you normally go to church?
I don't think that anyone should be bullied into going to church in 2013. People died to give freedom to people to choose not to go to church.
However if your daughter does not want to go to church with guides then prehaps she needs to join a secular organisation instead.
Teenagers need more sleep (9 hours) and due to their hormonal mayhem have difficulty producing melatonin (the sleep hormone) until much later in the evening than adults typically 1am as opposed to adults 10pm
So getting up early is hard for her body clock. Boo hoo. She had, by the sound of it committed to being there. I'd be disgusted with her.
People died to give freedom to people to choose not to go to church.
How convenient. Op she's actually making a well considered and political choice.
I agree that no one should be bullied into going to church. I was for years and have horrible memories of it.
I also remember being a teenager and being so tired all the time. It was like first trimester of pregnancy tiredness. For years.
I'd let her off, if it was me. But I'm a pushover.
If its that important I would have made sure she got up in time.
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
YANBU - I agree that you can't cherry pick what you do and don't get involved in, you're either part of it all or not at all.
My DS is a Beaver and we went to the village memorial today for the scout/guide service and then onto the church service after. Our packs are given financial aid by the British Legion and they like to see some pack attendance for Remembrance Sunday service.
I'm an atheist so not particularly up for the church service but I went primarily to say 'thank you' to all those who have given their lives/limbs etc... in service so that others didn't have to.
My maternal grandfather (like so many) fought and came back from WW2 and married my grandmother who was Jewish. I hate to think how different things would have been if they war had gone the other way. I doubt they could have married and I would not be here.
So, I think your DD is being VVUR. A morning thinking about other's sacrifice is such a small thing to do. A valuable lesson. It doesn't have to be about the politics or religion. Just the acknowledgment of someone's life and service.
YANBU, my 16 year old managed to drag herself out of bed this morning to go to the service. It is all about self-discipline & commitment. They are old fashioned values, but still worthwhile and part of being a Girl Guide. This is one of the reasons I think Guides is so good for young girls.
How old is she OP?
Could you really not think of a consequence so severe that she would do as she's told?
If she's made a promise to be there, she should have got out of bed.
As far as I am aware 11'oclock is the key time for Remembrance Day Parades - so am guessing she had to be there at 10.30 -or there abouts. So still a lie in. So I am not sure the "she has to get up every other day early" holds much water for me.
If she didn't want to go, she should have said so in advance. So YANBU
IF she had said she would be there then she should have gone IMO (barring illness or other incidents which make it hard of course)
Fish - the parade I was doing we had to be there for 9.30 so times will vary dependent on location
YANBU. It's a few events a year, it wouldn't have been such a big deal for her to miss a bit of a sleep. I think it's important for teenagers (and children) to learn that sometimes, you do things that you don't want to out because it's the right thing to do when you've made a commitment.
I'd say that if she was expected then she should have gone and I would be cross too. If she had no intention of attending then she should have had the courage of her convictions and discussed it with both you and the guide leader. As it is she has let her troop down and shown herself to be either weak or lazy or maybe both and I would be handing out a consequence for that.
Teenagers need more sleep (9 hours) and due to their hormonal mayhem have difficulty producing melatonin (the sleep hormone) until much later in the evening than adults typically 1am as opposed to adults 10pm
Yet she'll manage to get up for school every morning.
Some of the excuses on here are laughable.
I bet she'd give up her 9 luxurious hours if you gave her £100 and told her to go into town and treat herself!
She made a promise...a commitment and couldn't be arsed to keep it.
Just one Remembrance Sunday that happens once every year...
I don't think it's about being bullied to go, it's about learning that when you made a commitment, you follow it through. Obviously there will be exceptions sometimes - illness, family emergencies etc.
If the head of Buddhism and other faiths (and none) can be arsed to turn up to the Cenotaph then your DD should too. It's not about religion or whether you support war.
So if op said to her DD lets get up early and go to Alton towers for the day would she had said no thanks mum I really need my sleep.
It's probably not just Remembrance Sunday, she's probably outgrowing guides full stop.
It's geared to very young teens. Does she even want to continue? Your threat sounds very empty! She might rejoice in giving up! I did at 12!!
I didn't really see why they had to follow the religious doctrines of the C of E in order to be good Scouts
Well, it's part of being a scout isn't it? Its a choice and others are available.
Out of my daughters guide unit of about 15 3 turned up for remembrance service today. That is normal, the three who turned up are all children of leaders.
Years ago we tried all sorts to encourage attendance and were literally stopped from doing anything by parental complaints so we gave up expecting. I suppose it just depends what the specific expectations of your dd's guide unit is.
The thing is - Guides, Scouts, Cubs and Brownies are not military organisations. Should they be part of such a service to remember the dead or not? Or is it the religious aspect?
I've had the same argument with DS in Cubs today. It kind of makes me a bit uncomfortable linking the military side and the uniformed children's stuff. If you are in the Air Cadets or Cadet Force, the link and expectation is obvious.
But I have mixed thoughts about such an expectation for others - even though it's part of the community obligations.
Not everyone believes in wearing a poppy either - there are multiple threads running on this currently. If my dc decide not to wear poppies, I certainly won't force them to. I don't wear one myself - it's not mandatory.
I still remember those who died in needless wars.
i was in guides in a different country as a child. i had no idea that it was strongly affiliated with CofE here. it was not tied to any one faith back home.
I was impressed with the Vic at our service today. For the first time he said something like "Those of you that do not wish to pray are asked to sit for a moment in quiet contemplation". It was good to see him take into account those civilian and military personnel who attend the Remembrance Service to 'remember' or as a 'duty' rather than for the religious aspect of it.
Leave her alone.
Or tell her to leave the guides The forced religious aspect of it is why none of mine ever joined.
I took my daughter to church with the Guides this morning. The people who run Rainbows/Brownies/Guides are very involved with the church, I suspect the use of the church hall is reduced or even free, and I think two church services a year (sometimes Remembrance, sometimes another service around this time of year, and Thinking Day) is a small way of 'paying back'.
There weren't many Guides there, it wasn't compulsory. We had however told the Guider last week that we would be there, and so unless we were ill or had some emergency, we had made a commitment.
Fence sitting, I made DD2 go last year as it's a three line whip for Scouts, but I didn't drag her to church today (she's given up Scouts, for good and bad reasons). She doesn't believe in God and very rarely comes to Church.
As a Ranger I used to do the parade at the memorial and slip off quietly before church. My (Catholic) Guided went to mass and was perfectly happy that I should be true to my faith (or lack of it) to.
These days I have a Cof E DH and a choir singing DD1, so I do the whole lot.
In truth I'd still prefer to just do the act of remembrance at the memorial. Non of the people I'm remembering were religious, my Dnan because her father lost his faith when a second brother died in WW1
It's about learning the value of duty not religion; Leaders give up a huge amount & it's a small price for everyone to support these events.
I would put this in perspective and decide for my teen that Guides are better (greater benefits) for them than the need for them to learn right now to meet all obligations. I would also support the Leaders if they chose to scold her when she next goes. So express my disappointment but otherwise don't pursue it.
I honestly thought this was going to be my teen this morning, btw!!
TBH i think she should be allowed back to guides and her Guider should ask her WHy she didnt go to the service it is optional she doesn't have to go but I think she let down her unit , but I think that is up to her and her Unit leader I would be miffed though why would you not let her go back to guides
If she's a teenager then maybe she isn't sure about her views on all this remembrance stuff.
Or maybe she was just too tired, I do think YABU
Her life isn't ruled by the guides, she may have just not felt up to it which I think is fair enough.
Do some posters on here think just not feeling up to it is a good enough reason to let others down and renege on a commitment you've made?
I'd be feeling a bit 'too tired' next time she wants a lift somewhere...
An obligation is an obligation and should be met unless illness or similar gets in the way.
YANBU. Our local troupes make it clear: you turn up for |Remembrance Sunday and St George's Day parade, or you're out. no excuses. Because that's what they are: excuses.
There's nothing jingoistic or forcibly Christian in spending 2 minutes in silence to appreciate those who died so that we can live in a liberated country. People arguing that they died for her to have the freedom to sleep in are really missing the point. The point is that it's a tiny effort on her part to pay respect to the immeasurable effort on their part. And teenagers need to be taught empathy not apathy.
As a guider, Church is not compulsary and nor can we force the girls to attend.
But as she wouldn't get up, I wouldn't be in a hurry to help her do anything in the future.
She needs to deal with the consequences
If she had decided that attendance was in conflict with her conscience and that therefore she could not attend, and had sent her regrets to the gaudier in advance, then of course she should not be compelled to attend.
But if she was Ok about attending and just refused to get moving on the morning itself, then I'd throw the book at her.
I think she needs to understand how rude and disrespectful she was being.
Are you her Guider, or her Mum, or someone else?
I think it would be a shame to make her give up guides because of it, but I wouldn't just want to not say anything, as it's important she understands how she has let the company down, and to some extent the movement, and how it's just extremely rude.
I think so backforgood she needs to realise she is letting her unit down and by letting her not go to guides is really OTT she needs to realise she was rude ,
If you are her mother and are understandably angry with her I'd be interested to know how you've dealt with it (if you want to say of course)
What meditrina said.
There are those of us who feel deeply uncomfortable about Remembrance services and Poppy day because we feel the original respect and gratitude to those who died in WW1 and WW2 is being used to to engender support for later, morally questionable, wars of aggression; there is a strong suggestion that there is no difference between somebody who enlisted specifically to fight against fascism and somebody who takes wages to fight any random war that irresponsible politicians may decide to send them to. Some us feel there is a strong difference and that the world wars are being hi-jacked. iirc there was an article in one of the main papers the other day arguing this stand.
But any teen who genuinely feels this needs to get off their backside and explain how they feel. If you don't want to keep commitments you don't make them in the first place.
It's not about the religious aspect or war. It's about making a commitment and then not being arsed to follow it through.
I'm a guider and we can't force girls to attend. I saw a guide there this morning whose two brownie sisters were nowhere in sight, but they hadn't said they would be there so fine.
A lot of girls go to a service at their own church, or are with another parent somewhere else, or have other commitments. That's fine, we understand. But if you say you'll be there then you should be
> It's about learning the value of duty not religion; Leaders give up a huge amount & it's a small price for everyone to support these events.
Yes that's true. "Duty" isn't a word we hear much these days.
If she had decided in advance (and told you) that she didn't want to go, I think that wouldn't be so bad. I'm a Brownie leader and parades were always optional for our girls - my current unit is a special one based in a hospital so it would not be possible to go. If she just couldn't be arsed to get out of bed then I have much less sympathy.
My school had a Remembrance Sunday service every year which the entire school, day pupils and boarders, was expected to attend. The only exceptions were those who were in the CCF, who went to the parade in town instead. There may have been a few conscientious objectors, though I was never aware of them, but casual non-attendance was very much frowned upon. I was in the choir and it was one of the most moving services we did every year. Several hundred grumpy teenagers dragging themselves out of bed and into school on a Sunday and then joining in sincerely with the service suggests it's hardly impossible because of their hormones...
Guides and scouts generally feel that remembrance day is important to recognise due to the history of the organisations. Both movements were involved in the war effort in many parts of the world. Guiding and scouting are, at their heart about teaching our youth to think freely and be responsible members if society. I go and I I encourage my guides to go to pay tribute to those that have fought to allow us the freedom to gave this debate. My grandmother volunteered for the warsaw resistance with the rest of her scout unit. It is not about religion.
I am a Guide leader of over 15 years.
Attending church parade for any reason is NOT compulsory, and Guide groups should not give rewards or incentives to turn up.
As a leader, I think YABU to ban your daughter from Guides for this, but as a parent, I think YANBU to expect your daughter to show some respect on this occasion. She didn't need to go to church to show respect.
usualsuspect there is NO forced religion aspect in either guiding or scouting. Neither organisation is or has ever been a Christian (or any other religion) organisation. This is a misconception.
I would be cross with her and make sure she understands why. Can't believe some of the excuses people are coming up with here. Teenagers bodyclocks meaning they need more sleep? So bloody what! Thousands of teenagers marched off to war and never came back, it's just one morning - get up and show some respect. And if the fact it's held in a church which means you avoid it, go to your local war memorial instead and take some time to remember those who made such a sacrifice.
Unplastered I'm very surprised you say that, it may be true of Guiding but you are so, so wrong about Scouting. The Scouting website itself states their position on religion - it is a religious organisation, and there is no option not to take the religious part of the Promise on investiture.
I was a Brownie, Guide then a Ranger,
It was not compulsory to attend Remembrance Services, but it was kind of expected that you would go, I always went, and so did my DDs when they were in these organisations.
Don't ever remember attending a St Andrew's Day service though.
I wear a poppy every year, as do my DDS, but I don't attend services any more, I think you can remember in your own way.
Though thankfully this suggests that the current religious policy will be dropped on 1st Jan next year, thank goodness!
Our service isn't held in church. There is a church service but Scouts aren't expected to attend.
They parade through our town, finishing at the war memorial where they have a short wreath laying service, 2 minutes silence, and the Last Post.
All Scouts (to a lesser extent Beavers and Cubs) are expected to attend, unless they have a very good reason. It's made very clear to everyone when they join what's expected of them. If they can get up in the morning to do the fun stuff, they can get up in the morning to do the less fun stuff
We parade once a year, we don't do St George's Day, it's just over an hour out of their lives once a year
The scout website states that Their religious policy encourages " 'Exploration and development' rather than Religious or faith specific education".
From January, Scouts will be able to Promise 'to uphold our Scout values' instead of 'duty to God' if they wish.
Read their website, theres been a few changes recently.
Sorry, sparklyfucker, cross post.
The conversation with my (Explorer scout) son went a bit like this:
DS - I was meant to go to the Remembrance Service today
Me - I know
DS - Don't you mind that I didn't go?
Me - Yes, I do, but I didn't want the hassle of badgering you to go, making sure your uniform was all ready, driving you there etc, just for you to be miserable
DS - That's the right approach
Me - No, it isn't, but I'm fed up with you not doing as I ask and sitting at your lap top whenever you can.
I feel bad, but at 14 he's got to start taking the responsibility for stuff like this. I think he got the message.
I can't wait for ds2 to be able to take a non-religious Beaver Promise - as it currently stands and for the next 6 weeks Scouting still discriminates on the basis of religion - members are required to believe in a higher deity/power - you cannot currently officially be an adult or child member of the Scouting movement if you are an atheist, as stated on the website. I'm also considering asking our Leader to re-invest ds1 with a non religious promise, but that might be nit picking a bit!
I encouraged mine to go as a mark of respect (it is the one church parade I as an atheist go to).
Any who didn't I will assume had their reasons and would like to think they marked the occasion in another way. Church parade is not the only reason to do this and I would never force it.
Sparkly, it would not be nit picking at all :-)
Chances are they will all renew their promise fairly regularly anyway, probably thinking day will be the next 'official' time (22nd February).
I have got a group of Guides ready to make the Promise before Christmas and we will all be renewing our Promise at the same time - the Guide promise changed from 'to love my God' to 'to be true to myself and develop my beliefs' on 1st September.
Attending parades and services are part of the obligation. It was because of the requirement to attend Sunday services that my DD decided not to continue with Guides.
DS is in Army Cadets. Attending the parades is part of that. If he didnt want to attend the different parades then I would be telling him that he lacked commitment.
You dont get to pick and choose with many of these organisations. You are either all in or all out. You dont just get to do the fun bits.
Many remembrance day parades now depend on the youth organisations to actually continue.
DS spent Friday evening ironing his kit and polishing his boots then poppy selling on Saturday and remembrance parade on Sunday. He see this as part and parcel of being an Army Cadet.
Pilgit's post sums it up.
Ds went btw, despite his extreme aversion to churchiness. It was non-negotiable.
Fundamentally she joined guides and guiding for certain things, fun, camping etc. well there's other obligations expected via that organisation. Therefore she is bu. I agree she needs consequences and wider understanding of the organisation she has elected voluntarily to join explained.
Otherwise leave and join another one. Quite simple this one!
If you make a commitment you should follow it through!
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