To have said this to DS' Yr R teacher in GP surgery today?

(208 Posts)
youarewinning Fri 08-Nov-13 22:19:05

I must point out DS is now 9yo and in year 5. He's been extremely ill and diagnosed with tonsillitis at surgery. He was lying down on me but constantly twitching his legs and twiddling his fingers and occasionally instead of frequently! making noises.

Saw his old year R teacher - she was a complete cow to him and memorably punished him for pretend stinging a girl with a 'bee puppet' they had made - the girl cried. He was 4.1yo at the time.

School did point out he had poor social communication but despite my insistence thought it was 'something he'd learn as he matured' and she seemed to preferred the 'punish it out of him' approach. sad as opposed to something that he needed an IEP/support for.

Anyway she retired as he left year R and he left the infants just over 2 years ago. <happiest day of my life!>

She said Hi to DS who didn't recognise her. I reminded him she was his teacher in year R. DS just said 'oh' and laid back down. She asked him how juniors was and he said "fine".

She then said "your much quieter than you use to be but I see you still don't sit still" shock

My simple reply was "I see you're still as judgemental as you use to be and continue to misunderstand children"

Ironically my DS is not quiet - he's quiet socially but is always talking to himself, his Ipad grin or generally making low level noises. He does sit very well now.
Most importantly thanks to the correct support he's getting is doing extremely well in school and is part way towards a diagnosis of ASD.

treacletoffeeinnovember Fri 08-Nov-13 22:20:28

I sympathise but she'll just think you're the sort of parent who thinks their child can do no wrong and is permanently misunderstood.

I want to like your op. good for you.

ivykaty44 Fri 08-Nov-13 22:21:09

I like your sting wink far more effective than a puppet

kidinasweetshop Fri 08-Nov-13 22:21:18

YANBU

plum100 Fri 08-Nov-13 22:21:55

Well said

custardo Fri 08-Nov-13 22:22:17

and she replied....?

NatashaBee Fri 08-Nov-13 22:28:30

YANBU. I only think of good responses to comments like that half an hour later!

Good for you - we so seldom get the chance to say these things - there's never space at the time and later on we don't get the opportunity.
Hurrah for you

eofa1 Fri 08-Nov-13 22:31:48

So she told your son off for making another child cry? What a bitch...

JackNoneReacher Fri 08-Nov-13 22:34:56

Her unpleasant, barbed comment deserved that. I think she may have had that coming for a long time.

PansOnFire Fri 08-Nov-13 22:41:43

As a teacher I think YANBU, she is. And unprofessional. But I think you need to accept she had no choice to punish your DS for making another girl cry.

Goldmandra Fri 08-Nov-13 22:41:45

So she told your son off for making another child cry? What a bitch...

She punished him for doing something he would be unlikely to predict would make another child cry even if he were NT. Unless this was a repeat offence following explanation and warnings, she was in the wrong.

She sounds like a very unpleasant person and is no loss to the teaching profession at all.

eofa1 Fri 08-Nov-13 22:44:27

Fully depends what actually happened, which presumably the OP doesn't know as she wasn't there. "Pretending to sting" another child could be done aggressively and be intended to frighten rather than amuse.

youarewinning Fri 08-Nov-13 22:44:30

eofa they had made puppets of bees. He pretend stung his friend who made a response I can only imagine was very overdramatic - to be touched with paper! She punished him because the girl said she didn't like it. She actually agreed at the time he didn't understand other peoples emotions and couldn't read body language etc. Problem is she wouldn't support him and would punish him. I'm not sure why she was shocked that a 4yo would do this with a bee anyway.

custardo she looked shock then muttered said "how's he getting on at juniors". That's when I said he was part way through ASD diagnosis but doing very well and excelling in some subjects academically.

eofa1 Fri 08-Nov-13 22:46:04

Hmmm. Another aren't assuming the motives f their own child must always be good and the motives of another child bad, or silly.

eofa1 Fri 08-Nov-13 22:46:22

Parent, not aren't.

Dawndonnaagain Fri 08-Nov-13 22:48:46

Good for you, and I hope your ds feels better soon.
(Lots of trouble with stupid teachers in the early years).

Goldmandra Fri 08-Nov-13 22:52:44

eofa it isn't about the reasons for the other child crying. She may well have been upset for a very good reason (maybe she had recently been stung) but no four year old is likely to predict that touching another child with a paper bee and pretending it stung her would make them cry.

This teacher would no doubt have made the OP very aware if the behaviour was a repeat offence. She doesn't sound like the sort to miss an opportunity.

Punishment should have a purpose and be used as a last resort. That doesn't sound like a situation where either of those things applied.

youarewinning Fri 08-Nov-13 22:53:25

eofa If that comment is aimed at me "assuming" you couldn't be more wrong. At the time the teacher actually told me she witnessed the incident. DS was buzzing his bee puppet around and touched the girls arm with it and said "stung you". The girl burst into tears and the teachers words was "visably devastated". DS just carried on buzzing his bee around. So she punished him. She didn't ask him to apologise and he didn't touch anyone else. She just told him he was to be punished for making the child cry.
His motives weren't 'good' but yet they weren't intended to upset. And she would never actually tell me if DS was the only 4yo who used the bee puppet as a ...................... well puppet grin

Mummyoftheyear Fri 08-Nov-13 22:55:49

I'd have seen red and may have said something, too! YANBU - but she'll misinterpret it as 'like son, like parent'.

youarewinning Fri 08-Nov-13 22:57:16

This teacher would no doubt have made the OP very aware if the behaviour was a repeat offence. She doesn't sound like the sort to miss an opportunity. No she never did miss an opportunity to report..... DS called out in class today; DS won't sit on the carpet between people and insists on sitting on the outskirts; same with PE; DS is clinging to the only person he knows from nursery and not socialising with the children I'm trying to get him to befriend; DS forgot to go to the office today for his medication............. you get the picture?

WooWooOwl Fri 08-Nov-13 23:17:27

What was the punishment for pretend stinging this girl?

I'm struggling to see what the teacher did that was that bad tbh. She doesn't sound great, but she doesn't sound awful either.

Lilacroses Fri 08-Nov-13 23:22:21

I don't care what your son did or did not do when he was a 4/5 year old, she is a very unpleasant woman to greet him in this way....particularly given that he was ill. If I ever see a child that was challenging in my class I either feel genuinely delighted to hear that they are thriving or guilty that I couldn't help them more. She is a rude, unkind woman and your response was spot on. Hope your Ds feels better soon.

Annunziata Fri 08-Nov-13 23:29:20

YABU. She said hello to him and asked how he was getting on, that's perfectly polite.

youarewinning Fri 08-Nov-13 23:31:46

woowoo I understand that. It's hard to explain things here - and get a years worth of grief into 1 OP! She was awful - and unfortunately it took her announcement of retirement for the real truth of her classroom manner and other parents views on her to become public. He missed 10 minutes golden time.

^lila* thankyou. You sound like one of DS' lovely teachers he's had over the years. You don't sound like a teacher who would 'create' problems just to have the control of being the teacher. By that I mean if a child (my DS) liked to sit on the outside of the group - you'd let them if they weren't causing a problem there (her admittance is he didn't and listened well) instead of causing disruption to the class by insisting they sit central to the group - and then punishing the child for disrupting the lesson. hmm

Oh dear, seeing this women again today seems to have dredged up some anger I thought I'd left behind blush

drigon Fri 08-Nov-13 23:33:31

YANBU op. My son had a similar teacher for 3 years in the juniors. He too has mild ASD and she misunderstood the situation completely. She was unpleasant and unsympathetic, whilst pretending to care about him. Glad your son no longer has this particular teacher.

frustratedandfailing Fri 08-Nov-13 23:34:12

What a cunt - YANBU.

Also, glad your son is getting the support he needs - there are some schools and teachers who should be utterly fucking ashamed of themselves.

5madthings Fri 08-Nov-13 23:36:49

Yanbu at all, she was rude and sounds like she was a crap teacher to your son, you were actually quite restrained imo!

Lilacroses Fri 08-Nov-13 23:39:30

I really feel for you. Yes, I've taught many children who have later been diagnosed as having ASD but I've also taught alot of children that just like to do things a bit differently. I was working with Yr children today and thinking that some children find the rigidity and constant social demands of school too much at this age. When you step back and think about it their response is perfectly understandable!!!

MrsLouisTheroux Sat 09-Nov-13 01:51:33

YABU. Why say anything? If she was unpleasant, you were just as bad in your response.

Misfitless Sat 09-Nov-13 03:56:44

Yanbu - she sounds like a right cow. At least she's not teaching anymore. Well done for saying what you said - I would only have thought of that later when it would have been too late, then would have kicked myself for not saying something!

youarewinning Sat 09-Nov-13 11:30:09

MrsL I said it in response to her comments re DS. I'll be honest that if she'd just asked how juniors was I would have just politely told her. I just suddenly felt annoyed on behalf of my DS that she judged him wrongly for a year and then again 5 years later - ASD or not he was 4yo when she taught him. Ironically when they said some children aren't ready for school and I wanted to discuss removing him to PT or until year 1 as they couldn't meet his needs - they said it wasn't that bad. hmm

I totally understand why people are saying IWBU - TBH afterwards I'd wondered myself if I had BU, but had spoken instinctively, and that is why I asked the jury that is MN.

Laura0806 Sat 09-Nov-13 13:23:37

well done for saying it! you were sticking up for your DS. Why should she be allowed to make ignorant, unplesant comments. Sounds like shes a great loss to the teaching profession??!!!!!!!

slothlike Sat 09-Nov-13 13:53:14

What was her tone of voice like when she made her comment at the surgery? I can imagine it being said in a teasing/affectionate way, but I suppose that's unlikely given her previous treatment of your DS. I'm split: I sort of think you should have risen above it in an aloof-but-polite way... but then I also think YWNBU at all and good for you.

Did she say anything in response?

youarewinning Sat 09-Nov-13 14:07:36

sloth her response posted^^. Re her tone. It was kind of a factual/ matter of fact tone, TBH I can't really decipher it blush I guess I was annoyed at what she said - because of past history - as opposed to how she said it? She may have meant it teasingly - I guess my view of her could have clouded my judgement.

It's not easy to forgive someone who makes the first year your child spent in school more miserable than it needed to be - because I do understand how much DS struggled to cope and the ramifications of this.

rockybalboa Sat 09-Nov-13 14:14:55

Well said OP!! I'm never quick enough to come up with appropriate retorts and would just have mumbled something.

lljkk Sat 09-Nov-13 14:22:19

snurk, I don't care about the aibu part, I totally understand why OP said what she did.

HollaAtMeBaby Sat 09-Nov-13 14:27:54

YABU and precious - it was FIVE YEARS AGO, how can you even remember all this trivia? Everyone has at least one mean teacher during school - it's good for children to learn that some people are unreasonable/unfair/unkind. You set your son a poor example with your rudeness to her.

Lilacroses Sat 09-Nov-13 14:40:48

I know what you mean Holla about having some good and some bad teachers. My Dd has had 2 grim teacher twice and the second time it was easier than the first. However, she was 8 and 10 when that happened so had ample experience of good, kind teachers, plus she never actually felt like these teachers didn't like her and neither did we. It's very different for your child to be struggling in their first year at school (when many of us are anxious for them) and to have a teacher who is constantly negative and unkind to them. Op has already said that her son has had some problems and she was naturally concerned about them. If an adult greeted another adult with that remark or similar "I see you still talk too much or whatever" that would be considered rude. Why is it ok for an adult to say that to a child? Op had every right to defend her son.

BitOutOfPractice Sat 09-Nov-13 14:48:23

I'm another who is wondering why you are carrying this grudge on against someone who taught your son 5 or 6 years ago. Really? She punished him for making another child cry. In an incident that you didn't even see. Get over it. Your son clearly has as he didn't even recognise her

As for her comment, if someone had said that to me I'd probably have laughed and said "oh I know she's a right fidgety bridget" and not even given it a second thought.

You sound like you were determined to be offended by her because you've not forgiven her for something (that she saw and you didn't) five years ago. As a consequence you were rude. YABVU

Having said that I hope your ds feels better soon

Lilacroses Sat 09-Nov-13 14:49:56

And by the way youarewinning, your response wasn't that rude...it was pretty factual! I'm the most polite, positive well behaved person you could imagine but when someone insulted my gorgeous Dp my response made everyone standing close by almost faint in shock and embarrassment!

youarewinning Sat 09-Nov-13 14:50:48

I remember it because she may my DS's school year hell - making a child who already struggled socially afraid to do anything for fear of it being wrong.

DS does and should get into trouble for wrongdoing.

Lilacroses Sat 09-Nov-13 14:59:33

It obviously wasn't one incident was it??!

Lilacroses Sat 09-Nov-13 15:03:24

Sorry, this really is my last word on it but you set your son a GOOD example! Sometimes you need to stand up for yourself and those you love. I speak as someone who has only actually felt compelled to this 3 times in my entire life and on those occasions I didn't regret it for a moment.

youarewinning Sat 09-Nov-13 15:09:10

Thanks lila I actually spent that year trying to stand up for DS, accepting the difficulties and trying to get IEP/ behaviour plans drawn up to help him. I never disputed his social difficulties - just that he could be 'punished' out of him.

I did once ask her if she had anything positive to say about DS. Turned out she didn't!

I work with extremely challenging teens, many of whom exhibit violent behaviour towards me - I can still think of good things to say about them - because I like them, just not their behaviour.

claig Sat 09-Nov-13 15:12:02

YABVU.
She was only trying to make conversation and a link to the past.
She will have thought less of you for holding a grudge for so long.

claig Sat 09-Nov-13 15:14:59

Who'd be a teacher when this is the reaction you get from some people?
I hope she doesn't have the misfortune to bump in to you again.

claig Sat 09-Nov-13 15:16:35

"She said Hi to DS who didn't recognise her. I reminded him she was his teacher in year R. DS just said 'oh' and laid back down. She asked him how juniors was and he said "fine".

I hope he grows up to be more polite and courteous than this. I feel sorry for the teacher.

Lilacroses Sat 09-Nov-13 15:16:40

Same here, I've never taught a child in 15 years that didn't have lots of great qualities, that's not to say you ignore the negatives. You just need a modicum of compassion and common sense to realise thatif a parent has a child who is not coping well at school you need to work with them and not just confront them every day with a list of perceived offences!

Marshy Sat 09-Nov-13 15:18:06

This would have pissed me right off. She is no longer in a position to pass comment on your DS behaviour and in doing so, especially in negative terms, she invited your response.

Well done op and UANBU.

Lilacroses Sat 09-Nov-13 15:18:59

I'm a teacher claig and I never get that response from parents or ex pupils but then I a polite, courteous and kind to them...I don't insult them by saying basically "oh I see you haven't changed"!

claig Sat 09-Nov-13 15:22:17

"She then said "your much quieter than you use to be but I see you still don't sit still"

She was trying to be friendly and she didn't say "oh", it was the OP's DS who said "oh" when OP told him it was his old teacher.

Goldmandra Sat 09-Nov-13 15:22:48

Why is it ok for an adult to say that to a child? Op had every right to defend her son.

Exactly.

The OP made a similar comment to the teacher to the one which had been made to her son. It is no more rude because it is made to an adult.

Marshy Sat 09-Nov-13 15:22:57

Claig the child was unwell and she passed an uninvited and negative comment about his inability to sit still, and got pulled up on it by his mother.

She needs to be a bit less free with her uninvited opinions

claig Sat 09-Nov-13 15:24:04

'I'm a teacher claig and I never get that response from parents or ex pupils but then I a polite, courteous and kind to them'

Have you never told a child off in class?

LondonMother Sat 09-Nov-13 15:27:03

Claig, did you miss the bit where OP said her son has tonsillitis and has been extremely ill? Also the bit where she explained that he is well on the way to a diagnosis of Autistic Spectrum Disorder, classic symptom of which is problems with social communication?

claig Sat 09-Nov-13 15:27:18

'She needs to be a bit less free with her uninvited opinions'

I think the OP needs to be more polite and less willing to take offence at what I read to be an attempt to connect and be friendly with a former pupil who spent 1 year in her class.

Saying someone doesn't sit still isn't negative - it can mean that they are full of energy and vitality and life and like lots of other lively young children

Goldmandra Sat 09-Nov-13 15:27:28

Have you never told a child off in class?

You can manage behaviour appropriately while still being polite, courteous and kind.

Lilacroses Sat 09-Nov-13 15:27:49

Even if it was meant as a little joke it was inappropriate and unkind because the child was ill and she had spent a year being completely negative about him. Obviously if she'd been a great teacher and liked each other the situation would've been different but why add that little dig? If she'd just stopped at "how's junior school? Sorry you're pooorly hope you feel better soon" Op wouldn't have responded the way she did.

youarewinning Sat 09-Nov-13 15:28:33

claig he has social difficulties. He answers fine to most questions regarding feelings - he doesn't have emotional language but is having support from SALT. He also has tonsillitis, had slept for nearly 36 hours, hadn't eaten anything and had a raging temperature. I'm not sure most adults could muster up more than a one word answer under those circumstances.
BTW - I am a teacher. Not yet of children I am doing that training when DS starts secondary. I'm a teacher of behavioural management for pupils with SN to teachers and clinical pyschs, ed pyschs etc. The very people who are helping or in this teachers case should have been helping my DS.

I will admit to holding a grudge against her. I didn't realise I did until she made comment on him - comparing him to the 4yo he was. I think even if he was NT its unfair to compare a 9yo to when they were 4yo.

I actually had thought after that IHBU. But coming here and seeing most MNers think my initial thought and response was fair enough - I'm glad I did say it now. I just wish DS had been conscious enough to witness me standing up for him grin

claig Sat 09-Nov-13 15:29:07

'did you miss the bit where OP said her son has tonsillitis and has been extremely ill?'

That is no excuse for rudeness.

Yes, I missed the bit about ASD and that could explain it, however it doesn't explain OP's rudeness.

Lilacroses Sat 09-Nov-13 15:30:41

This isn't about telling a child off in class! Of course I have, I do it every day! But if I see them in town at the weekend or some years later I don't make little digs at them about it!

LondonMother Sat 09-Nov-13 15:31:12

It is every excuse for saying almost nothing. When a child is very ill - in fact, when anyone is very ill - there is no spare energy for chitchat. Why interpret a very brief response from a feverish child as rudeness?

Are you the teacher, in fact?

claig Sat 09-Nov-13 15:31:27

' but why add that little dig? If she'd just stopped at "how's junior school? Sorry you're pooorly hope you feel better soon"'

Because she wanted to make a connection, to go back to when she taught him years ago and to when he was in her class for 1 whole year. She was trying to make a link, not trying to have a go.

Lilacroses Sat 09-Nov-13 15:31:54

Should you NEVER be impolite then Claig? No matter how rude someone is to you or your child?

Marshy Sat 09-Nov-13 15:32:34

I think in the context it would be difficult to interpret the 'can't sit still' comment as anything but negative.

It was inappropriate and she was told by the mother.

claig Sat 09-Nov-13 15:33:00

'Are you the teacher, in fact?'

No, I am not. If I had been teh teacher, I would have told OP what I thought of her rudeness there and then.

SantanaLopez Sat 09-Nov-13 15:33:19

I think you were overly rude.

claig Sat 09-Nov-13 15:35:13

"Should you NEVER be impolite then Claig? No matter how rude someone is to you or your child?"

Of course you should. If I was that teacher I would have been impolite after what was sad to me.

But you should not be impolite when there is no reason for it and you should try not to misconstrue what someone else says and read it the wrong way and if you do make that mistake, then you should apologise.

Goldmandra Sat 09-Nov-13 15:36:59

I'm glad I did say it now.

I agree.

She may be retired but she still has plenty of time to benefit from going home and reflecting on why a parent would feel the need to respond as you did.

SunshineMMum Sat 09-Nov-13 15:38:11

YANBU, she was being very judgemental and the bee thing was overkill. A lunchtime supervisor made comments at about DS's meltdowns at a till recently, I wish I'd had the confidence to answer back smile

Goldmandra Sat 09-Nov-13 15:38:11

But you should not be impolite when there is no reason for it and you should try not to misconstrue what someone else says and read it the wrong way and if you do make that mistake, then you should apologise.

I don't think the OP misconstrued anything.

claig Sat 09-Nov-13 15:39:01

'I think even if he was NT its unfair to compare a 9yo to when they were 4yo. '

But people often do compare like that because it is affectionate. They say things like you a re still as cheeky as you were then, and it is affectionate and personal and creates a common bond and a link.

claig Sat 09-Nov-13 15:42:34

'I will admit to holding a grudge against her. I didn't realise I did until she made comment on him - comparing him to the 4yo he was. I think even if he was NT its unfair to compare a 9yo to when they were 4yo.

I actually had thought after that IHBU. But coming here and seeing most MNers think my initial thought and response was fair enough - I'm glad I did say it now.'

Even the OP thought she had gone too far and had been unreasonable and her first reaction was right, she had been unreasonable. She made a mistake and people make mistakes and she made it because she held a grudge that she didn't even realise that she held, but let's hope she doesn't treat other people like this again because her first reaction was right, she was unreasonable.

Marshy Sat 09-Nov-13 15:42:49

I think the teacher made the mistake of seeing herself still somewhat in the teacher role in relation to this child. Thing is that she isn't - things have moved on and it was not her place to pass comment on his behaviour.

In doing so she opened up the opportunity for the op to pass a comment also.

youarewinning Sat 09-Nov-13 15:42:50

claig I totally understand what your saying. But this woman was negative about my DS for a year - clearly did not like him and made no bones about it. She refused to help him when he needed it and then felt the need to make further comment on his behaviour. Had it been a teacher who has at least made an effort to support DS I believe I would not have taken such offense about it. As I said - I didn't realise I held such a grudge against this women until she said what she did.

Apart from the fact what she said was untrue - my DS talks far more now than he use to. It might be to himself mostly but he doesn't shut up grin

youarewinning Sat 09-Nov-13 15:47:44

In contrast his current CT is fecking amazing. He has moved DS on beyond what I thought possible in 7 weeks. The difference is he said how disruptive it is that DS needs to be tapping or making noise when the room is silent. But, and here's the difference. He suggested a twiddle box of silent objects he could also chew - so he's trying to limit the behaviours, not punish him for things beyond his control. And it is beyond his control because when told to 'stop' or 'shut up!' he will. So he doesn't continue it to be naughty - but will often start it again after a period of time because that's part of his SN.

claig Sat 09-Nov-13 15:54:39

'I think the teacher made the mistake of seeing herself still somewhat in the teacher role in relation to this child.'

She only did that because she wanted to be friendly and recreate the common bond that they shared when she was his teacher years ago.

'She said Hi to DS who didn't recognise her.'

She liked DS and said hi to him. She holds no grudges and likes him.

I don't blame OP because I have made mistakes and been rude to people when it was uncalled for, and OP reacted instinctively because of the latent grudge that she held unbeknown to her. She couldn't help it. But in hindsight we can't condone it, because she made a mistake and reacted rudely to someone who had greeted her DS and who liked him.

It is important to acknowledge the mistake in order not to offend anyone else in the future who might make an innocent remark. I have done similar things but I hope I have tried to learn from them when I looked back in hindsight.

claig Sat 09-Nov-13 15:57:10

' I didn't realise I held such a grudge against this women until she said what she did.'

Yes, I understand that totally. But, now that you know about the grudge, I think you will be able to have a better persepective and not react to what may in fact be innocent remarks which may be misintrepreted through the prism of the grudge.

youarewinning Sat 09-Nov-13 16:02:56

claig she didn't like him. I haven't seen her since she left the school. I smiled at her and said Hi because it seemed rude not to when I knew her and was sat (through no choice of my own) beside her. Whether my response was rude or not is certainly debatable.

I'm still trying to get my head round the idea that someone would make a disputably affectionate comment to a child they spent a year actively disliking. I agree - how are you/ school etc would have been the most appropriate if she felt the need to say more than hi back.

Oh well, perhaps with hindsight she knows she was out of order to DS and haphazardly tried to make a comment about how he's improved - but ended up being insulting instead confused

Goldmandra Sat 09-Nov-13 16:04:55

I think sometimes we take things as they happen and then later on we suddenly look back and realised how badly we or our children have been treated. The perspective we gain from time passing gives us a sudden clarity.

The OP suddenly realised how strongly she still felt about the teacher's unreasonable behaviour towards her son and, when this woman started criticising him within seconds of meeting him again, she instinctively dealt with it swiftly and effectively.

When we've done something that is a little out of character and challenged someone's behaviour head on we often look back and wonder if that had been the right thing to do. MN is full of threads where people are asking for affirmation when they have stepped out of their comfort zone to take a stand.

The fact that they are asking doesn't mean that they were wrong to do it.

Some teachers are unpleasant people just as some police officers, nurses, checkout operators are. This teacher behaved in an arrogant and judgemental way for at least one year of her teaching career and made the child very unhappy. She stepped straight back into that role as soon as she met the child again and it was very appropriate that the OP should challenge her.

Goldmandra Sat 09-Nov-13 16:07:06

I don't suppose she would be very pleased to hear that other teachers are making a better job of meeting your son's needs now, OP. She probably expected to her that he was still struggling which would have justified her treatment of him.

claig Sat 09-Nov-13 16:09:19

Yes, she will have analysed what she said to try and understand why you were rude to her and in future she will not say that again, but I don't think she meant to be rude. You say she "spent a year actively disliking" him. I find that a bit hard to believe. She said hi to him, and who "actively dislikes" a 4 year old?

' I agree - how are you/ school etc would have been the most appropriate if she felt the need to say more than hi back.'

Yes, but you have to cut people some slack. People are human and are all different and say all sorts of things due to nerves or old age or sense of humour or not knowing how to react, particularly when his reply to who she was was just "oh" instead of "hi" etc.

Goldmandra Sat 09-Nov-13 16:10:30

I find that a bit hard to believe.

I see no reason to assume that the OP is lying.

claig Sat 09-Nov-13 16:12:31

'I see no reason to assume that the OP is lying.'

I don't think she is lying, I think she may be misinterpreting it.

youarewinning Sat 09-Nov-13 16:12:49

Gold Yes, you put my feelings into words better than I did!

BabyMummy29 Sat 09-Nov-13 16:14:54

Good for you OP. I have a situation where a certain teacher taught both my DCs. She was a complete cow to DD (who could do nothing right in this woman's eyes) and thought the sun shone from my DS.

Now, when she meets me she is all over DS like a rash and totally ignores DD.

Next time I encounter her I am going to say "By the way, did you realise I actually have 2 children?"

Just waiting for the occasion!!

Lilacroses Sat 09-Nov-13 16:15:52

Op had absolutely no reason to think the teacher liked her son or was being affectionate! Why would she think that when she'd clearly disliked him for an entire year!

youarewinning Sat 09-Nov-13 16:16:48

claig I am not misinterpreting her not liking him - she didn't. Read ^^ where I said she was reeling of a list of 'he saids' and 'he dids' and I asked if she had anything positive to say about DS. She didn't. Most people can think of something positive to say about people - even if they don't particulary like them.

FunnyRunner Sat 09-Nov-13 16:17:45

I'm a teacher. I tend to defend teachers. But in your case I think you did exactly the right thing. She sounds like a bitch but she also sounds like she was someone who was nearing retirement who had simply run out of steam. She might have been a good teacher at the start of her career.

So YANBU. But next time some moron says that teachers should be teaching till they are seventy carried out in a box tell them to get a fucking grip. Every teacher of my acquaintance admits there was a 'golden period' in their teaching career when they were experienced AND enthused. It is a job with a high burnout rate but a lot of teachers keep limping along past the burnout point because they don't know what else to do.

That doesn't excuse this woman's behaviour but it might at least help you to understand it. And she may of course just be a cow.

Marshy Sat 09-Nov-13 16:18:08

Claig I don't think you can confidently say on the basis of what we have been given that the teacher likes the ops ds. In fact on the contrary it is the ops opinion that the opposite is true!

I can't be confident that the teacher meant her comment negatively but I can see why it might have come across that way. Unfortunately for the teacher she made a comment to someone who on this occasion was prepared to be equally open with her opinion in response. I would imagine that might have been a bit of a surprise.

youarewinning Sat 09-Nov-13 16:20:37

baby grin That should be used for anyone who only talks to 1 child when there is more than 1 there! My pet hate is when people coo over a newborn ignoring the toddler hanging on to the pram. I think people find it hard to fathom that someone can actively just dislike a child unless they've seen it first hand.

BabyMummy29 Sat 09-Nov-13 16:22:59

funnyrunner you are so right. I'm a teacher too and have find the prospect of working until I'm 68 - at the current reckoning but the goalposts keep moving - dire.

There may be some jobs you can do until you're that age, but teaching isn't one of them.

Goldmandra Sat 09-Nov-13 16:24:08

It may be hard to believe that a teacher can actively dislike a child and knowingly make them unhappy unless you've experienced it directly. When your child is the victim of this there is no room for misinterpretation, no matter how hard you look for the positives and the excuses. It is also a horrendous experience for the child and the parent who has to hand them over every day for more of the same.

Some teachers see children's inability to cope as wilful behaviour and engage in battles they can never win and never finish without backing down and admitting they were wrong. It sounds like this could be what happened to the OP's son.

youarewinning Sat 09-Nov-13 16:25:40

My current age of retirement (also work in education is 68 too!)

I'll be 35 when I qualify to teach - I am also under no illusion I'll be at my best with it at 68/70. Hence why I have another educational role as a tutor under my belt. So that when I hit that point I can go back into that role - perhaps in a more admin side - but still make a positive difference to children who are struggling within education.

Goldmandra Sat 09-Nov-13 16:28:30

I take my hat off to anyone who can remain positive and enthusiastic as a teacher up to retirement age. I know I couldn't.

I would however walk away and find a different role when I realised I was no longer doing a good job.

youarewinning Sat 09-Nov-13 16:29:52

Some teachers see children's inability to cope as wilful behaviour and engage in battles they can never win and never finish without backing down and admitting they were wrong. It sounds like this could be what happened to the OP's son.

^^ this. She thought he should just sit in amongst his peers on the carpet because she said he should. And that his reluctance and figiting in this position was wilful naughtiness. But yet admitted herself if he sat at the back on the outside was still and would listen.
She wouldn't/didn't believe it was because he felt comfortable when not surrounded by people on every side. Like I said - she created problems just to be the 'teacher' and 'in charge'.

BabyMummy29 Sat 09-Nov-13 16:35:34

OP Unfortunately where I live, the opportunities for me to find any other kind of work that pays as well as teaching are virtually nil.

My only hope is to win the lottery and retire to my dream thatched cottage in the Cotswolds - oh well, I can dream!

youarewinning Sat 09-Nov-13 16:40:41

Sadly it doesn't pay as well! Well not as well as a teaching job if you've gone through threshold and on to UPS. But I started the role working for the county council, the county council employ me as the tutor and so I'll have enough pension payments to the county council once I retire from teaching to take a role with the 'company' who I am a tutor for.

I'll still be doing the lottery weekly though grin

imofftolisdoonvarna Sat 09-Nov-13 16:41:23

You're still holding a grudge because he missed 10 minutes of golden time for pretending to sting someone and making them cry?

I think you need to let it go big time.

Goldmandra Sat 09-Nov-13 16:42:40

You're still holding a grudge because he missed 10 minutes of golden time for pretending to sting someone and making them cry?

Why don't you read the whole thread before commenting? hmm

youarewinning Sat 09-Nov-13 16:43:19

imoff please RTFT.

youarewinning Sat 09-Nov-13 16:43:51

x posts gold grin

imofftolisdoonvarna Sat 09-Nov-13 16:45:58

Surely if she really didn't like your DS she wouldn't have even acknowledged him in the surgery, she would have just ignored him, especially as she is now retired? It does sound to me like she was just trying to make a comment that showed she remembered him.

imofftolisdoonvarna Sat 09-Nov-13 16:47:45

I have read the thread, but you said that a memorable punishment was the bee stinging incident.

youarewinning Sat 09-Nov-13 16:48:58

I sat next to her as no other seats - I smiled and said Hi as it would be rude to ignore her. Then DS asked me who she was. She then continued the conversation. Bet she wishes she'd kept quiet now? grin

intitgrand Sat 09-Nov-13 16:53:24

Sheesh !It was just a jokey throw away comment FFSDo you always take everything so literally?.
you bang on about how ill your DS was with fricking tonsillitis.It was a doctors surgery she could be there for something serious and you verbally abuse her.
YABU rude and PFB!

homeworkmakesmemad Sat 09-Nov-13 16:55:37

Maybe unreasonable in that responding rudely is pretty much always uncalled for as it lowers us to the level of those who are rude to us, BUT - I completely understand why you said what you did and I commend you for standing up for your son, even if it perhaps wasn't said in the best way. (although in the immediate heat of the moment I'm impressed that you had a comeback at all - well done!)

My DS had a horrendous teacher in P1 and this followed on from a pretty difficult experience in nursery when 1 of the teachers was also awful. We had worked hard to negate the negativity coming from his nursery teacher and thankfully she only taught him 2 days out of 5 and the other teacher was lovely, so the impact wasn't too bad. However the teacher in P1 decimated his character - changed him from a confident, happy child who was eager to learn to a child who thought he was crap at everything work-wise (he was actually way beyond everyone else in his year group academically so absolutely no truth in this at all), labelled himself a "bad boy" and hated school to the point of crying almost every day going in. It has taken 2 full school years, two excellent teachers and a heck of a lot of work to get him back to the boy he once was. He is now in P4 and is excelling - he knows he is bright, he believes in himself and is confident, but not proud or looking down on anyone in any way. Most of all he's happy. I would LOVE to meet that teacher again and let her know just how well he is doing and how highly his teachers think of him. She has since moved to another area and I doubt I will ever see her again - gutted - both my son and myself are now far more confident and could stand up to her for the first time ever - it would give me so much pleasure and I would love my son to have the opportunity to show her what a wonderful, successful, confident boy he is now.

ouryve Sat 09-Nov-13 16:57:35

YWNBU.

The retirement of some teachers is a good thing.

youarewinning Sat 09-Nov-13 16:58:01

memorable as in ridiculous. She 'sad sided' him daily. He lost golden time weekly. Some of the things were fair enough and she would 'sad side' and did sad side other pupils for.

BTW - the 'stung' child is a very unpopular tittle tattler nowadays. She is often DS 'buddy' at lunchtime (he has 1:1 support and only does half of lunchtime in playground). Why? Because he feels sorry for her having no friends so asks her if she wants to go to library with her. Not bad for a child with very little empathy.

BitOutOfPractice Sat 09-Nov-13 17:32:52

Why, I often wonder, do people come on AIBU when they have no doubt whatsoever in their mind that they were 100% right? To be patted on the back? It puzzles me

youarewinning Sat 09-Nov-13 17:35:57

Some people might BitOut but I've fully admitted my response may have been more about unresolved bitterness towards her which I didn't realise I harboured than about her comment as such.

I am disputing those posters who say she can't have disliked him and I'm imagining it. This is the teacher who when invited to say something positive about my DS - declined the offer.

claig Sat 09-Nov-13 17:36:05

BitOutOfPractice, OP actually thought she had been unreasonable and was pleased to find that most posters thought that she had not been unreasonable.

"I actually had thought after that IHBU. But coming here and seeing most MNers think my initial thought and response was fair enough - I'm glad I did say it now.'"

youarewinning Sat 09-Nov-13 17:40:25

Thanks claig We may not have agreed through the thread but its great when debate leads people to see it from both sides. I am glad I said it because its made me realise lots of things. But I agree I maybe jumped the gun on her meaning of the comment - and could probably have handled it better.

I still dislike her though wink

claig Sat 09-Nov-13 17:43:17

Yes, youarewinning, I don't blame you because your reaction was instinctive, based on the latent resentment. But now please cut her some slack smile

pacificjade Sat 09-Nov-13 17:43:31

She completely deserved the comment OP. my DS, who is 11, has a ASD diagnosis and he's had one or two teachers who obviously had no idea how to treat him & also tried to punish his 'bad' behaviour.

We changed schools & I have a changed child as he is now taught by teachers who treat DS in a way that shows they understand him.

Some of the comments on here show how little understanding there is of ASD children and their behaviour. I count myself as someone who didn't understand either until I experienced it with DS. Part of a teachers job, however, is to understand why some children behave as they do and treat them appropriately.

Good on you for standing up for your DS OP.

youarewinning Sat 09-Nov-13 17:56:16

Shame it was 5 years too late wink

I regret letting them make me feel like I was the one making a fuss at the time and that I should have let them "do their job".

I knew something wasn't quite right with DS - hence why I'd already sought support from HV when he was 2 and was under ENT for hearing checks.

Whoever said hindsights a wonderful thing - should be shot grin

pacificjade Sat 09-Nov-13 18:14:35

I know what you mean, it took us years to stand up to the 'oh he's just shy/a dreamer/ socially immature etc. DS was always completely different to most of his peers, we just didn't know why.
Fortunately with the help of his current school, we finally made the ASD diagnosis when he was 8.

We now have to choose the next school, as he finishes at his primary school this year, & I am agonising over making a wrong decision for DS.

SarahAndFuck Sat 09-Nov-13 18:28:33

OP "She said Hi to DS who didn't recognise her. I reminded him she was his teacher in year R. DS just said 'oh' and laid back down. She asked him how juniors was and he said "fine".

Claig "I hope he grows up to be more polite and courteous than this. I feel sorry for the teacher."

He is a young child with social difficulties who was very ill with tonsillitis at the time.

Talking with severe tonsillitis is agony and takes a lot of effort and energy.

I think under the circumstances he was very polite and courteous to say as much as he did. Just getting to the doctor will have been exhausting and painful for him.

Making polite smalltalk with a woman he doesn't remember wouldn't really be something he was well enough to do and he shouldn't be judged on the little he did say while suffering from a painful throat condition that makes talking (and eating, drinking or even just swallowing) an ordeal.

intitgrand Sat 09-Nov-13 21:42:53

I can remember my reception teacher Mrs Miller - and I am 45 not 9!! I would suggest if the teacher had been as unkind to your kid as you seem to think, she wouldn't have been forgotten so easily!
why is it that parents of naughty children always blame the teacher? (rhetorical question -we all know the answer!)

intitgrand Sat 09-Nov-13 21:44:07

and OP have you thought the teacher might have been ill too.Why did you trhink it was ok to abuse someone in a doctors waiting room?

youarewinning Sat 09-Nov-13 21:56:12

He has SN - so not great at recalling people at the best of times. I can still remember teachers I had. My DS couldn't remember the nursery teacher who he loved when he saw her 3 years after he left.

And why are you questioning my DS behaviour. We are disussing my response to a teacher that failed my DS and made his first year of school hell. Not once have I claimed my DS is perfect. In fact his HT told me I was imagining his behaviour to be worse than it actually was and "to stop getting myself in a tizz about it" hmm

youarewinning Sat 09-Nov-13 21:59:07

She may have been ill - I assumed she was tbh. But she decided to have another dig at my DS and I stood up for him.

Maybe the way I did was wrong - I said that hours ago. But all this assumption that I'm a parent who thinks their child is an angel is speculation, ridiculous and completely wrong.

intitgrand the OP's child wasn't a 'naughty' child, he is being diagnosed for ASD. It was the teacher's fault for not being able to provide for his needs, and to punish and criticize instead of support and nurture him like a reception teacher should.

I say that as a reception teacher.

intitgrand Sat 09-Nov-13 22:10:32

Because he was on the 'sad side' every day and your anecdote about making a girl cry!

and in my experience, parents of 'naughty' children blame themselves more often than they blame the teacher.

But I don't like the term 'naughty' to describe a child, especially a 4 or 5 year old child.

intitgrand the OP's ds was getting into trouble in Reception because the incompetent teacher was mislabelling his behaviour as naughty when actually he had special needs that she was not catering for or helping him with. Not because he was actually being naughty.

The OP said the teacher complained that the boy wouldn't sit in the middle of the carpet next to other childrne. A good teacher would make that child a special place to sit where he felt most comfortable, even if that meant he was not next to any other children. A bad teacher forces the child to sit in the middle of the carpet and then punishes him for not coping with that highly stressful situation.

Poor boy.

toffeesponge Sat 09-Nov-13 22:18:13

YWNU.

She is no longer his teacher so any respect you may feel you had to show her in front of your son is no longer relevant. There was no need for her to get another dig in. Hope your DS is better soon.

youarewinning Sat 09-Nov-13 22:22:36

He may a girl cry - but not deliberately. If your child was playing with a bee puppet at 4yo and touched an other child who completely over reacted - would you give your child a 10 minute time out?

She sad sided him for things he did related to his SN because she believed that would make him stop doing them. That's not a judgement - she fully admitted to it saying 'he'd learn'.

intitgrand Sat 09-Nov-13 22:31:01

what? children can't be naughty?
[rolls eyes]

youarewinning Sat 09-Nov-13 22:32:29

Thanks toffee I've been on your DD thread watching. DS managed a rice crispie cake, 6 chips and 2 nuggets today grin hope your DD feels better soon too.

Goldmandra Sat 09-Nov-13 22:36:33

why is it that parents of naughty children always blame the teacher?

Maybe because many of the 'naughty' children hmm have additional needs which aren't being met and the teacher is the reason why.

My experience is more that teachers who can't manage behaviour or meet additional needs in the classroom blame the parents even though they aren't even there when it happens.

It's the behaviour that's naughty or unacceptable, not the child.

toffeesponge Sat 09-Nov-13 22:38:47

Nuggets! DD is proud she once ate nine!grin. She wasn't ill then though.

youarewinning Sat 09-Nov-13 22:42:55

It's not about whether DS was being 'naughty' or not. He had recognised difficulties which the teacher decided to punish out of him instead of guiding him in what she expected of him. The sad side thing didn't work because 1) he has no empathy so couldn't relate his behaviours to making the teacher feel sad 2) they didn't happy face him every time he managed to do something correctly he'd been sad sided for because 'he should be behaving that way' and 3) the behaviours were not deliberate acts of naughtiness - which the teacher admitted. She even described him as impulsive with poor social understanding. That is different to naughty.

But again this thread is about my guilt about my reaction towards her as I harboured a grudge I didn't know I harboured. NOT a character assassination of my DS who finds life hard enough as it is.

youarewinning Sat 09-Nov-13 22:46:29

Quite gold I don't blame the teacher for finding my DS a PITA or hard to deal with - I blame her for not trying to understand him and treating a 4yo badly. He's not perfect - but those who support him do not find him naughty at all just hard work!

youarewinning Sat 09-Nov-13 22:48:04

intit please answer my question about how you would deal with your child in the bee sting incident.

PigsInParis Sat 09-Nov-13 23:15:49

YWNBU - she was. Her comments about an ill child were uncalled for, even without the history.

Int - stop the character assassination of a then four year old with an unsupportive teacher and undiagnosed ASD. It isn't particularly kind, given all the information already n the thread. It seems clear this boy was disliked because of his SN - not because he was just naughty.

BitOutOfPractice Sun 10-Nov-13 00:33:54

Sorry op I beg to differ. Your opening post is not written as someone who thought they had been U. Your subsequent posts, drip feeding further information to justify your actions, only confirm that you have no doubt whatsoever that YWNBU. So why bother?

youarewinning Sun 10-Nov-13 07:24:40

My further posts give information relevant to what posters have written. Even one that states I believed I thought I had BU but was glad I'd said as it most posters thought iwnbu. I didn't put my own thoughts in the op about it because I was was asking what others thought. That's generally the idea.

I will however dispute posters who think I'm a precious mum who thinks their DS can do no wrong - I am not and don't see why a child's behaviour should be called into question. This is about what i said and how i behaved. Information about how this teacher treated my DS is factual and not what this debate is all about.

LordPalmerston Sun 10-Nov-13 07:25:45

You were just rude.

MrsLouisTheroux Sun 10-Nov-13 07:45:18

Just caught up with thread. OP, I still think YABU.
Again, why bother saying anything? She was unpleasant, and you were just as bad in your response. She was rude, you were rude back. Doesn't make you look good.

BoffinMum Sun 10-Nov-13 07:47:26

When reading the 'sits in the wrong square centimetre of carpet' type comment, I am put in mind of a local head teacher who continually excluded a child with Tourette's on the grounds that he 'stared at her aggressively' and nonsense like that. She basically resented having to have dealings with SN as she couldn't be arsed having them in her nice, tidy school. Sounds this teacher was a bit lazy too. Well done OP for having the guts to call her on it.

BitOutOfPractice Sun 10-Nov-13 07:57:15

Op Please point out the sentence in your opener that says or implies you think you might've been U. Maybe I'm thick because I can't see it.

youarewinning Sun 10-Nov-13 08:12:32

I didn't put it in the opener bitof as I stated in my reply to you ^^. I responded in a way I wouldn't normally in response to someone who treated my child like shit for a year and then made a made a comment I took for a dig. I came away thinking I may have BU. So I asked people's opinions. Further down despite most posters saying YWNBU I admitted but thought in fact I had been been but was glad now I'd said it.

I'm still glad I said it because it's cleared a few things up in my own mind but fully admit in the GP surgery it was an unnecessary and probably OTT response.

But I think if I'd written an OP ' my 4yo pretend stung someone with a bee puppet today and the girl sobbed, was I BU to give him a 10 minute time out 2 days later ' people would tell me to let it go as I was BU as he's 4. The question is not whether she treated him badly - she did. But whether my response to her was wrong.

baskingseals Sun 10-Nov-13 08:22:06

Yanbu
I think you were right to say what you did. I don't think you were rude. I think she is the kind of person who has got any with saying what she wants for years without anybody pulling her up on it, well done you for saying something.

Well done you. She was rude in the doctor's surgery - having a dig at a child IS rude, and nasty, especially when it's over something that happened four years ago (and that wasn't wrong in the first place).

"It may be hard to believe that a teacher can actively dislike a child and knowingly make them unhappy unless you've experienced it directly." Gold is quite right here - I've seen it. Aimed at a child with SN. And anyone who behaves in such a contemptible way, especially towards a child who is particularly vulnerable, deserves far more than a sharp yet polite response to a rude remark.

I was shocked when I saw it, especially from someone I had previously seen as a good, kind and child-centered teacher.

Youarewinning, I hope ds gets lots better very soon.

BitOutOfPractice Sun 10-Nov-13 09:44:45

Well you did mention you thought you might've been U after you'd seen most agreed with you on your 10th post or something. It's quite clear from your op and your tone throughout that you are rather pleased with yourself. In my opinion the teacher made an off the cuff chatty remark, you responded with that very rude reply. Tbh she probably thinks you're off your rocker now. At the very least you lowered yourself to what you consider to be her level. Which is never good.

Anyway, is your ds better? Tonsillitis is vile.

youarewinning Sun 10-Nov-13 09:54:04

Well yes! I must be the only OP is the history of AIBU who thinks they may have BU despite 95% of posters thinking they weren't grin

I tried to keep my OP factual and without implying a tone. I guess people will read things differently - we are all human afterall.

I'm not pleased with myself, actually quite shocked that I harboured the grudge as it wasn't a conscious thing I was aware of iyswim? I'm not in the slightest bit worried that she may think I'm off my rocker - she never actually had a high opinion of me in the first place! Despite the fact the reply was rude and maybe uncalled for I'm still glad I said it - if only because I sorted things out in my own mind.

DS is a little brighter - thankyou. Think it will be a few days until he's back to his normal self and in the mean time I'm enjoying the peace and quiet!

Goldmandra Sun 10-Nov-13 10:04:06

I'm not in the slightest bit worried that she may think I'm off my rocker

When you have a child with additional needs, people thinking you're off your rocker is the least of your worries. There are plenty around who will rush to label you as a bad parent, pushy parent, overprotective parent or a neurotic mother and your child as manipulative, naughty, spoilt, attention seeking, etc. I imagine that this teacher doled out plenty of these labels.

Off your rocker seems quite attractive in comparison smile and I think Bit is probably right. This teacher doesn't seem like the sort to ever wonder if she's the one who did something wrong. In her world it will always be the parents' fault.

youarewinning Sun 10-Nov-13 10:13:19

Gold you're right again wink In my case though it was the parent who as a LP with an only child spent too much time focussing on him. So yes they probably were hinting at overprotective (me) and spoilt (him).

I do feel guilty for not fighting harder for him. For allowing their judgements of me and him make me question myself and my own abilities - despite what my own head was screaming out to me.

Goldmandra Sun 10-Nov-13 12:00:22

I do feel guilty for not fighting harder for him. For allowing their judgements of me and him make me question myself and my own abilities - despite what my own head was screaming out to me.

You're far from alone. Given my time again I would have stood up to school staff a lot earlier and, my DD1 particularly, would have been saved considerable distress.

That's the thing. We try to work with teachers even when they are denying our children's needs, acknowledge their greater experience and qualifications and try not to come across as pushy or over-protective. In the meantime, with certain teachers, our children are going through hell.

I've been there more times than I can remember but, like you, I can now send my children to school knowing that the people around them genuinely understand and care and it's a lovely feeling.

My DD's old headmistress asked recently how she was getting on in her new school and she was most put out when I said it was brilliant and she was very happy. She muttered something about them obviously being experts and walked away without another word. I think she wanted to be validated by hearing that the problems were continuing.

intitgrand Sun 10-Nov-13 12:53:02

youarewinning
I don't for one minute believe this 'pretend sting' was just a gentle touch with the puppet
He either poked, scratched or nipped her or frightened her by telling her she was going to get stung.You need to take off your rose tinted spectacles?

FunnyRunner Sun 10-Nov-13 13:10:40

This thread seems to be moving beyond the original remit. So to repeat Op you were not being unreasonable based on your history with that teacher. It's a pity she never got a comment like that when she was still teaching as she might have stopped and reflected.

There are bad teachers just as there are good ones. Historically the bad ones have been very hard to get rid of.

The other side of this is that teachers are under huge pressure to deal with huge classes which often have multiple pupils with additional needs as well as pupils who are just plain naughty and spoiled. There are issues with parents who try too hard to be friends with their children and who are not prepared to do the bad cop stuff as needed. In the early years especially it can be hard for teachers to know if children are having difficulties or whether they are just brats. It takes time and teamwork to get to the bottom of this and a burnt out older teacher juggling thirty odd tiny kids will not always have the reserves for this, especially if they have old school views on discipline and the 'yoof' of today.

None of this excuses any teacher from actively persecuting a child.

Goldmandra Sun 10-Nov-13 13:54:13

In the early years especially it can be hard for teachers to know if children are having difficulties or whether they are just brats.

I think I would rephrase this as

... it can be hard to understand whether children's behaviour is a result of additional needs or ineffective behaviour management....

I've worked in early years for a long time and have yet to come across a child who is just a brat.

However I think your summing of of a burnt out teacher not having the inner resources to look behind the behaviour is right and this is a sympton of a system that looks too hard for value for money and not enough at the long term picture.

diagnosticnomansland Sun 10-Nov-13 14:02:00

I see the ignorant-of-neurodevelopmental-issues brigade are out in force.

youarewinning Sun 10-Nov-13 14:18:40

intitgrand the teacher herself said he did not hurt her, just his actions made her cry and he didn't respond her to crying. that is why he was punished. I wrote it up thread as well.

The issue with the teacher us that she treated a child with probable ASD badly and then 5 years later on a 39 second snapshot him him when very I'll in a GP surgery made a comment which I took yo be judgemental - and which I responded to as such.

diagnostics quite wink guess I should have realised posting about my action in A*I*BU would end in a character assassination of my DS' SN. <sigh>

Though to fair most posters have been extremely understanding - even those who thought IWBU.

youarewinning Sun 10-Nov-13 14:19:58

Read 39 as 30! I honestly wasn't actually counting the seconds - just giving an approximate picture of the scene!

LondonMother Sun 10-Nov-13 14:27:56

Initgrand, give it a rest! You're doing yourself no favours by your rather nasty remarks about this little boy.

SunshineMMum Sun 10-Nov-13 16:20:39

You are winning, that drip, drip of 'Your child is naughty, unruly etc' when a child has obvious needs that aren't being met. is damaging to the self esteem of the child and parents. To bring it up at a GP surgery, pointing out 'perceived' current behavioural traits was uncalled for. I don't see you as a precious parent at all, we've been there!

MrsLouisTheroux Sun 10-Nov-13 17:11:49

OP- the teacher herself said he did not hurt her, just his actions made her cry and he didn't respond her to crying. that is why he was punished. I wrote it up thread as well.*
So, he didn't hurt her physically but 'his actions made her cry' He absolutely deserved to be told off.

MrsLouisTheroux Sun 10-Nov-13 17:12:23

OP- the teacher herself said he did not hurt her, just his actions made her cry and he didn't respond her to crying. that is why he was punished. I wrote it up thread as well.
So, he didn't hurt her physically but 'his actions made her cry' He absolutely deserved to be told off.

diagnosticnomansland Sun 10-Nov-13 17:13:52

I have a real problem with this whole "Naughty children" thing...but I suppose it's useful to some because it allows them to transfer blame from themselves onto the child. Young children are rarely naughty just to be naughty...there is almost always a reason and it's up to the ADULTS not the child to use their brains and common sense to assess and strategize in the best interests of the child. "Stop being a naughty boy/girl" is as effective as a rice-paper sieve hmm

diagnosticnomansland Sun 10-Nov-13 17:17:05

MrsLouis - so a 4 year old (even one with no SN) pretending to sting a classmate with a paper bee is grounds for detention? I'd hate to be your child/grandchild - your expectations are ridiculously unreasonable.

diagnosticnomansland Sun 10-Nov-13 17:25:08

And also...this teacher did not ask how he was getting on, she made a judgement of him based on the previous negative relationship which was a power play and she took that opportunity, once again after retirement, to have another dig and point out the boy's perceived "faults". Nasty, nasty, nasty. Did she hoist her bosom at the same time?

youarewinning Sun 10-Nov-13 17:25:31

MrsLouis made to realise his actions caused upset - yes of course. A 10 minute time out of golden time 2 days later - No! His difficulties are social communication and empathy. Punishing him for not having these doesn't teach him how to behave. He was 4yo - he couldn't predict his actions would provoke that response. It's not like he hit, kicked or punched. He never did that sort of thing because he had been taught they were wrong - that's where his black and white way of seeing things is great!

But anyway people are using the whole bee thing as a red herring. It's not about that - it's about a teacher treating a child badly for a year and then commenting on said child judgementally ( as I viewed it) 5 years later. It's about my behaviour - not his.

youarewinning Sun 10-Nov-13 17:28:39

If any of your 4yos did something with an item that's realistic for that item and caused upset to another in the process unintentionally - would you punish them? And would it be 2 days later? I'm not asking opinions on my DS. But it seems some people are BU in their expectations just because they think it adds weight to their argument that IWBU - which I've already said I probably was!

MrsLouisTheroux Sun 10-Nov-13 17:32:00

A 10 minute time out of golden time 2 days later - No
Golden time isn't every day I take it? So, "you have made so and so cry so you will miss 10 mins of golden time on such and such a day" is perfectly reasonable for a 4 year old IMO.

youarewinning Sun 10-Nov-13 17:34:04

And you would give the same punishment to your child for unintentionally making a child cry in pretend play?

diagnosticnomansland Sun 10-Nov-13 17:34:15

OP - you will get no where with certain people when it comes to children and behaviour and the will character assassinate because by definition they are extremely unreasonable and inflexible. I really wouldn't waste your breath or in this case your fingers trying to defend because you'll have more chance of getting them to admit the world is flat. Your son is unique and wonderful just like every other child and YOU know that malice was not his motive for the ridiculous bee stinging incident or any of the other incidents (though I'm certain if this teacher pushed him and pushed him she would get negative behaviour out of him because she was stressing him beyond his point of coping and battling over everything just to have control. She was a shit and incredibly dense and un-resourceful teacher who caused a lot of the issues that became, well, issues. Period.)

MrsLouisTheroux Sun 10-Nov-13 17:37:11

And you would give the same punishment to your child for unintentionally making a child cry in pretend play?
Yes

MrsLouisTheroux Sun 10-Nov-13 17:39:38

Because whether pretend play or malicious intention the result is the same, another child was hurt ( maybe not physically but hurt/scared by these actions).

PaperSeagull Sun 10-Nov-13 17:40:10

This is one of the most bizarre threads I've ever read. All these posters ascribing motives to the various participants, deciding (based on nothing) that the bee incident resulted in actual pain for the girl involved, etc. Do they really believe what they have written or are they just enjoying a bit of fantasy?

FWIW, I think the OP was right to stand up for her son. Since she was actually there, she is probably best placed to know the tone in which the teacher's comment was made. If it sounded like an unkind dig at a child who is not only ill but also has diagnosed additional needs, then it probably was. And the OP did the right thing, IMO. Sounds like it was no loss to the teaching profession when this charming teacher retired.

iWantChampagneOnColaBudget Sun 10-Nov-13 17:47:47

my ds reception teacher, being new to teaching, and imo, blatantly inexperienced, did not have a grasp on boisterous children.

now, he is my pfb, but when i found that she was teaching my second dc, i tried to extend an olive branch as it was obvious that we weren't on good terms she remembered me from last time by saying ds benefited from your teaching, hoped you were dc2 teacher to which the sarky cow replied unfortunatley your wish came true shock
'well', i said 'if you believe that, you'll believe anything'

diagnosticnomansland Sun 10-Nov-13 17:48:54

By your definition then, MrsLouis what should I do to punish my baby - she bit my boob today - she didn't mean to do it, but it hurt....

The problem with punishing young children harshly every time they do something that gives them new information about the world but may have a negative but unforeseen consequence is that you make them afraid to try anything new...how do they learn then?

If you apply this child-taming logic to a classroom of four year olds I doubt there would be any golden time....ever and in the end not much learning would be going on either because they'd all be too worried about angering the great big adult in the room.

MrsLouisTheroux Sun 10-Nov-13 17:53:03

diagnostic- By your definition then, MrsLouis what should I do to punish my baby - she bit my boob today - she didn't mean to do it, but it hurt....
Very odd comparison. Your BFeeding baby is not a 4 year old at school making another child cry. Unless I have missed something and OP's child has such severe SN that he is comparable to a babe in arms. If this is the case, my apologies.

youarewinning Sun 10-Nov-13 18:07:34

So at what age does accidentally upsetting someone become punishable? I've accidentally upset my friends - I'm in my 30's. They will just point out what I said hurt their feelings and I apologise and we move on. As we do if they upset me unintionally.

And yes disgnotic sadly that is true. By the January of year R my DS had become a school refuser because he felt the teacher hated him and wanted to know why and had no idea why.

Goldmandra Sun 10-Nov-13 18:25:10

*And you would give the same punishment to your child for unintentionally making a child cry in pretend play?
Yes*

Good grief.

Have you attended any parenting courses? If not your HV or family support worker should be able to book you onto one.

youarewinning Sun 10-Nov-13 19:12:48

Gold I am sentencing punishing you to a 20 minute time out from MN on Wednesday. Why? Because I was drinking coffee whilst I read your comment. Now I know you would expect to use MN as somewhere to post comments with freedom of speech............. but........ your comment made me cry with laugh too hard causing coffee to come out of my nose....... and it hurt grin

youarewinning Sun 10-Nov-13 19:14:07

and being over the age of a babe in arms you should have predicted this <we really need a poking out the tongue emotion here!>

Goldmandra Sun 10-Nov-13 19:39:25

youarewinning I am very sorry for making coffee come out of your nose and hurting you.

Of course I will to serve my sentence because, although I didn't mean you any harm, I inadvertently caused you pain and must be punished sad

<sets reminder on iPad calendar and notes that time out coincides with school run. Phew!>

MrsLouisTheroux Sun 10-Nov-13 19:45:40

If not your HV or family support worker should be able to book you onto one. If I was getting into squabbles with a retired teacher my child didn't even remember, in GP's waiting room,
in front of my DC over something as trivial as a 10 min loss of golden time five years ago, I would book myself in for classes.

youarewinning Sun 10-Nov-13 19:56:02

It wasn't over that incident though Mrs It was a whole year of her treating him badly - to which I admitted at some point 48 hours ago I felt I had over reacted but was glad I had after posters responded.

Thanks for the offer of classes though. I did think Camhs would suggest the same when I first met the clinical psychologist - as is the norm. Alas she didn't - so despite your views on my parenting - the actual professionals clearly think I'm capable.

A shame this professional wasn't.

MrsLouisTheroux Sun 10-Nov-13 20:03:00

Your DS didn't remember her/ recognise her. She can't have left much of an impression positive or negative so the only person getting in a tizz is you. It's not worth it.

pacificjade Sun 10-Nov-13 20:18:44

MrsLouisTheroux if you knew anything about kids with ADS (or alternatively read the whole thread, as it's already been mentioned) you would know that they often don't recognise people, sometimes months, never mind years later.

MrsLouisTheroux Sun 10-Nov-13 20:25:09

I know an awful lot through personal experience pacific. What is true for one child isn't true for all. But if OP has already said her DS doesn't remember people, again, apologies.

pacificjade Sun 10-Nov-13 20:27:05

And maybe the OP shouldn't get in a tizz about negative comments from one person, but as I know, years of having your child misunderstood and treated as being 'naughty' is very wearing. It is especially wearing coming from a trained professional who is supposed to do their best by your child.

I completely understand why the OP snapped and was, IMO justifiably, little rude in her response to a very rude comment about her DS.

Donkeyok Sun 10-Nov-13 20:44:04

I am also a teacher and have a ds 8 with similar SEN. Its great that you have toys/ twiddle box as my ds has eaten 2 blazers and 3 ties in 2 terms.
I find it quite depressing that despite talking to educated teachers re my sons SEN, suspected ADHD his report from 8 different teachers (grammar system) complained of his inability to focus. I am looking forward to parents evening next week when I will let rip (politely).

I understand you must feel great to have got your opportunity to speak up for him although a little late. If she has just retired she may have been old school where this 'naughty' child image comes from.

Just be glad you're in a good place now.

Sometimes I find it easier not to 'have a go at someone' as its usually me that ends up feeling bad about it. I had to remove my ds after 2 years of bullying that wasn't helped by the teachers. In the end I knew another meeting was fruitless and quietly changed schools.

MrsLouisTheroux Sun 10-Nov-13 20:46:00

I have lived with someone with ASD for 20 years.
I think that we sometimes overestimate a teacher's ability to have a perfect strategy for every single act/ behaviour each individual child presents in a classroom of 30 children.
I don't predict, cope with, understand, empathise with, relate to or deal with every single incident related to ASD perfectly and it's been 20 years here.

MrsLouisTheroux Sun 10-Nov-13 20:47:41

Just labelling someone as naughty is lazy though I agree Donkey

youarewinning Sun 10-Nov-13 21:28:22

Sometimes I find it easier not to 'have a go at someone' as its usually me that ends up feeling bad about it. NOW you tell me Donkey grin

That's pretty much what happened here. I snapped. Justifiably or not (as you can see that's very much open to debate!) - but it's made me come to terms with it and work through some feelings.

I don't predict every ASD related incident here either my life would be far more peaceful if I could! MrsL Hence why we're all saying a 4yo can't predict that playing with a puppet (bee + sting) will cause another child to cry. Other peoples reactions to seemingly logical things just cannot be predicted.

My DS lack of reaction to her crying obviously was not great. However....... after many years of him staring at people who are upset/ hurt etc I have managed to teach him to ask "are you OK". Sadly that's as far we've got! It is one of the social stories we are working on though so hopefully we'll have a breakthrough soon!

Goldmandra Sun 10-Nov-13 23:06:01

I think that we sometimes overestimate a teacher's ability to have a perfect strategy for every single act/ behaviour

I think just being willing to try a few might have been a step forward in this case.

I don't expect any teacher to be perfect or even really good with my DCs for 100% of the time. Most of us understand that our own child will almost always have to fit in with the needs of other individuals and the group. However every teacher can make an enormous difference by making small adjustments and being willing to look for the reasons behind the behaviour before deciding to punish it. That isn't overestimating the teacher's ability to do anything. It's expecting them to make an effort to teach the children without harming them.

MrsLouisTheroux Mon 11-Nov-13 06:28:49

gold You have no way of knowing how much or how little this teacher tried to understand and neither do I.
We have a handful of incidents ( if that) to go on and a one sided story.

MrsLouisTheroux Mon 11-Nov-13 06:36:32

However every teacher can make an enormous difference by making small adjustments and being willing to look for the reasons behind the behaviour before deciding to punish it
Or great bloody whopping adjustments and hours of trying to figure out reasons for things as is the case in my house. It is unreasonable to expect teachers to know what works/ doesn't work all the time. They have up to 30 children to deal with.
So, lets say this teacher got it badly wrong, was an old bag and made this child's life an utter misery. What did OP do about it?

Goldmandra Mon 11-Nov-13 08:00:21

*You have no way of knowing how much or how little this teacher tried to understand and neither do I.
We have a handful of incidents ( if that) to go on and a one sided story.*

I have the OP's description of how much the teacher didn't try to understand. I'm choosing to respond to the information presented as is the norm on MN. You are choosing to assume that she has made dozens of incorrect assumptions and blown everything way out of proportion every step of the way.

We have the OP's assertion that the neglect of her child's needs was a whole catalogue of incidents which lasted a whole year.

I do admit that this wouldn't be sufficient evidence to sack the woman but this is a discussion on an internet forum, not a tribunal. We don't often have two sides of the story do we?

It is unreasonable to expect teachers to know what works/ doesn't work all the time.

Of course it is but it's not unreasonable to expect them to recognise the parent as the expert in their own child and make at least some effort to meet the child's needs rather than trying to bully them out of 'naughty' behaviour.

BoffinMum Mon 11-Nov-13 08:04:35

Old bag, definitely.

Descend to her level. Make a big papier mâché bee with a hot glue gun secretly embedded within it like a crafter's Trojan horse, and 'pretend' to sting her next time. Whilst laughing maniacally and yelling 'Where do you think he gets it from, old woman? Mwah hah hah!'

Some people just need telling.wink

BoffinMum Mon 11-Nov-13 08:05:56

I may have watched too much Orphan Black, btw.grin

Goldmandra Mon 11-Nov-13 08:19:02

I think Monday morning might be getting to BoffinMum grin

MrsLouisTheroux Mon 11-Nov-13 08:53:38

boffin grin grin grin
Go on, you've persuaded me! Burn the witch!

gold: You are choosing to assume that she has made dozens of incorrect assumptions and blown everything way out of proportion every step of the way.
Yes I am I suppose because I know how one sides these threads are. There is nothing worse than feeling your child is being treated unfairly but this OP has posted AIBU and I am saying there is a possibility that she is.

MrsLouisTheroux Mon 11-Nov-13 08:54:39

sided

Goldmandra Mon 11-Nov-13 12:05:38

To be fair, the OP didn't ask whether she was being unreasonable in her view that the teacher had failed her child dismally and cause him significant unnecessary distress. The fact that subsequent teachers have met his needs appropriately seems to be good evidence that it was the teacher who was at fault.

Her questions was that, given that this had happened, was her response to her perception that this woman was starting on him again within seconds of an unexpected encounter unreasonable.

You chose to answer a question that wasn't even asked.

youarewinning Mon 11-Nov-13 12:27:45

Boffin You've just made my day and I really must stop drinking coffee whilst MNing! grin

I understand what your saying MrsL You do only have my word. And I'm not saying the school didn't recognise DS had needs - they did, both announcing he had poor social communication (which I had suspected) and at risk of dyslexia after DEST. (now not at risk smile) Just that their methods of 'teaching' him these skills won't work for a child with ASD - which obviously at the time we weren't aware of - although we knew there was something iyswim? I felt their tactics were harsh and led to a 4yo having school refusal as he simply couldn't understand "why the teacher hates me". Not every teacher since then has been able to understand or help my DS - but at least they have tried.
His teacher last year, a fairly new teacher didn't really understand my DS' needs or ASD (and she got the hard job of being his teacher as it went from SN to probable DX of what SN). She did give him sanctions for things he did related to his ASD and his anxiousness levels were high during the school year - however she also spent time after school with him helping him settle into school clubs.
For me it's not about getting it right - its about the willingness to at least try and help him.

MrsLouisTheroux Mon 11-Nov-13 13:23:43

Gold I answered the OP's original AIBU way up thread. The thread seems to have moved on.

MrsLouisTheroux Mon 11-Nov-13 13:31:49

youarewinning I understand the frustration, I feel it every day and I totally empathise with you. What I think and what I say out loud to people are two different things though.
In many ways people are just ignorant and would be horrified if they knew the hurt they cause. If you had said AIBU to hold a grudge because of... and AIBU to have wanted to tell this woman how insensitive her remarks come across, I would have said YANBU.

youarewinning Mon 11-Nov-13 13:48:05

Thanks MrsL I'm fully aware my reaction was rude, probably called for - but very mistimed! I honestly have no problem with accepting some posters think IWBU as I did ask! I just had a problem with people accusing me of lying/ exaggerating (or whatever) my reasons behind the remark. I don't think the reasons justify my response; they were just the facts about why I responded as I did.

Turns out many people think I was right, I however still feel it was said at wrong place and wrong time like 5 years too late and as you said - outloud grin. But I've said it now and this thread has been therapeutic if nothing else in sorting out feelings I didn't realise I'd not worked through.

diagnosticnomansland Mon 11-Nov-13 14:00:12

Mrs L...you're a teacher? confused shock hmm

MrsLouisTheroux Mon 11-Nov-13 18:31:35

Diagnostic Yes and live with Autistic 20 year old.
Double shock!

diagnosticnomansland Tue 12-Nov-13 14:34:52

I gathered that, about living with an Autistic loved one...coupled with you being a teacher I am, truly shocked, that you would do exactly as the teacher in question did to a four year old. I have to say if you were my child's teacher, we would most certainly lock antlers.

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