to think that if you can't spare the staff to clean up a soiled child you can't spare them to supervise one who is sent out of class?

(123 Posts)
Kyrptonite Tue 05-Nov-13 23:17:43

DS is 4, fairly bright, can be a handful (was referred to CAMHS for suspected ADHD, they wouldn't follow it up) and has toileting issues. He will soil his pants pretty much every day (doctor thinks he has encopresis, finally have a hospital appointment tomorrow).

Before he started school I went in and had a chat with his teacher and the head about the behavioural issues and the soiling. They assured me that there would only be a problem if he was having multiple accidents a day which is perfectly reasonable.

The first 4 weeks he came out of school 3 times absolutely caked in poo. He stunk. The next time it happened the TA came out with him at home time waving his bag of soiled clothing in front of her and said in front of DS that they could smell him this time so changed him. I emailed the school and asked if they could perhaps put his clothes in his PE bag so it was slightly less obvious and embarrassing. Cue meeting with arsey head who said they didn't have to change him and it was only because the TA was available that they could. I explained his medical condition, asked me to bring in some info on it (couldn't she have googled?!) and she said she hadn't heard of it and could I put DS in pull ups.

I refused the pull up idea as his accidents at school are very infrequent (he seems to save that for when he is at home) and I was worried that the other children might see him in pull ups when getting changed for PE and tease him. The head teacher said that they didn't have the staff available to change him and that 4/5 year old children wouldn't notice a child in a nappy!

DS's teacher took DP aside before half term and basically said that DS's behaviour stood out a mile from the rest of the class. DP explained again that the Dr had also had concerns and could the school involve the SENCO. We went to an open afternoon at the school and it seemed as though the headteacher kept looking at DS, waiting for him to do something and tell him off. I thought I was imagining this but DP saw it too and he isn't the most observant!

DS keeps saying he's been sent out of his classroom or excluded from activities. I ask him why and he can't tell me. He genuinely can't seem to understand what he has done wrong or he just can't remember. I'm slightly confused as to who is supervising him when he's been sent out. surely the school don't just leave a 4 year old outside a room on their own? Especially one who has been a PITA and could do anything left to their own devices.

I'm also baffled as to how, if DS isn't being left alone, they have the staff to supervise him but not change him when he's had an accident that is not through any fault of his own.

Also, surely sending a child out doesn't actually help unless they understand what they have done. Should they not be trying to support him to behave how they want him to?

I am well aware that he is no angel. I'm just confused as to whether this is normal for reception or if I need to speak to the teacher.

Kyrptonite Tue 05-Nov-13 23:41:59

Shameless bump. I think I may be over reacting so feel free to slap some sense into me!

NutcrackerFairy Tue 05-Nov-13 23:47:01

Oh my gosh, your poor son. This really is dreadful, not good at all that the school are completely failing in their duty of care and leaving your boy caked in poo sad

My DS is also 4, has just started reception and has also been having soiling incidents since he started [he has been potty trained reliably since he was just over 3].

DSs school also haven't been brilliant in dealing with it and have left me pretty much to flounder and muddle through by myself with the teachers and headteacher being disapproving on the sidelines.

What has helped was my GP referring me to a continence nurse service and the nurses coming to the school to discuss the soiling issues and enact a continence care plan with the teaching staff [that DS is given regular toilet breaks, that the teaching staff will assist DS to clean himself and to change into clean clothes, that I will provide spare clothes and wet wipes in his school bag].

Also ERIC the childhood continence charity were really supportive and had lots of helpful tips and suggestions for dealing with both the situation and the school. Their website is very good too.

Best of luck to you both flowers

SeaSickSal Tue 05-Nov-13 23:48:25

I think there are two issues here. The first is the way they are treating your son and reacting to his SN. It doesn't sound as if they are dealing with it well or being reactive to find out how to best deal with it. He doesn't sound like he's getting much support and he's simply being treated as a naughty boy and excluded. Keep pushing for the Senco.

But re the pull ups, YABU. 3 times in 4 weeks is fairly frequent and I don't think it's fair either on him or the staff. If he had pull ups his accidents could be dealt with much more discreetly. Perhaps he could get changed for PE separately so the other children wouldn't see and tease?

I think the teasing is a bit of a red herring because if he's having these accidents without pull ups on it will be immediately obvious to the other children and he'll get teased anyway.

IneedAsockamnesty Tue 05-Nov-13 23:50:53

Your child has a medical problem his needs should be catered for.

Kyrptonite Tue 05-Nov-13 23:51:00

Sorry I should have added that since she suggested pull ups he has had one accident at school, attempted to change himself as he thought he would be told off and came home with skidmarks. Now he is holding onto his poo until he gets home which is making it more painful for him. If it was an accident every week then I do get their point!

MammaTJ Tue 05-Nov-13 23:55:25

My DS had one poo accident at school and I was asked to pick him up because he had diarrhoea. I did, because I had just done a night shift and was not strong enough to argue!

I explained the next day that he never does solid poos, so is not infectious (unless someone else in the family has it too) so could go to school.

The head asked how often he has these accidents and when I said once in a blue moon, he requested I put him in pull ups. I refused. This was in reception and he has only done in twice since, coming out of school so I dealt with it.

I think sending a child who even poos themselves once a week in pull ups is unreasonable.

I think the way they are dealing with him is more than unreasonable.

Kyrptonite Tue 05-Nov-13 23:56:19

Also it is a tiny school so there isn't really anywhere else for him to get changed for PE and if he has a pull up on he tends to get lazy and would possibly just wee in that instead of the toilet. I'm hoping that the Dr tomorrow will be able to give me some info to take into the school as DS is utterly miserable about going in at the moment.

TheBuskersDog Tue 05-Nov-13 23:56:43

Regarding being sent out of the class, do you actually think he is being sent into the corridor or is he sent into another classroom where there will be staff?

Kyrptonite Tue 05-Nov-13 23:58:40

They sent him home for an accident the day they got my email complaining about how they had handled it. They said he needed to be showered but when he got home there was no poo on him!

I think I'm bloody annoyed because we chose this school based on it being small and we thought DS would get more support. The head teacher makes me think of Professor Umbridge from Harry Potter and isn't exactly approachable!

Kyrptonite Wed 06-Nov-13 00:00:07

I'm not sure. There are only 2 other classes so I don't know if he would be sent to them or put in the corridor. DS doesn't seem to know either! I'm just worrying that he will be sent somewhere for being naughty, not get supervised and end up doing something else he shouldn't and get in more trouble.

Life was so much simpler when he was at nursery!

cece Wed 06-Nov-13 00:03:25

I too am having issues with my DS2 who is also in Reception and is also 4.

He has impaction problems and takes Movicol so has no real control over his soiling at the moment. Things reached a head just before the holidays when he soiled himself but it leaked onto the floor and made quite a mess. I don't think it was handled very well and he now will not tell them when he has soiled, hence he is coming home with pooey pants a few times a week.

I have found this interesting to read.

I am planning to go back to GP and then go in and tackle the school. So far he doesn't have a care plan in place although they have put him on the SEN register.

Kyrptonite Wed 06-Nov-13 00:11:21

DS's accidents happened when he was on movicol. I had even explained to his teacher the first morning he was on it that he was taking it so may be even less aware than usual that he needed to go.
I hope you get answers from the GP. We had to demand a referral for DS after 18 months of going back and forth trying to get a solution.

ILoveAFullFridge Wed 06-Nov-13 00:23:22

Very sad for your ds being 'looked after' this way. It should not be happening. Outrageous IMO that they expect a child to be put back in nappies.

One of my dc had urinary continence issues, often wetting themselves at least once a day. The school was totally supportive, never expected me to put the dc back into nappies, assisted the dc changing (but at a slight distance, ie got the child to do the job themselves, while being available to help if needed), facilitated extra toilet-visits, never criticised the dc for accidents.

About 1/2 way through Y1 the class teacher alerted me to the fact that classmates were beginning to notice and comment on my dc's frequent accidents. So, to an extent it is true that children don't notice at first.

My dc is medicated for this condition, which has helped a lot. Every year I have a discussion with the new teacher to let them know how they can support my dc. The school take my dc's toileting needs as seriously as the needs of children with allergies/epilepsy/diabetes. Thanks to the medication and other things, my dc has not had an accident for a year, but the school still support them by allowing them freer access to toilet than they do other children (eg my dc does not get told "you should have gone at break").

This is the sort of standard of care you have the right to expect from your dc's school!

Jinsei Wed 06-Nov-13 00:35:43

Your poor little boy! sad

I know it can be disruptive for the other children if one child has behavioural issues, but I really hate the idea of a child being excluded at the age of 4 - they're still so very small!

As for the accidents, clearly he can't help this and he needs the right support. Do you have a sense that he has been embarrassed by the way it has been dealt with so far, or has he not been bothered? I do realise how incredibly busy teachers are, and I know there are lots of other pressures on them and the TAs, but it's so important that stuff like this is handled sensitively and discreetly. Children have the right not to be publicly humiliated.

I do hope that you can get the right support for him soon. Keep pushing for the involvement of the SENCO, and try not to let your disappointment with the school's response so far get in the way of working with them on putting the right help in place for your little boy.

Dayshiftdoris Wed 06-Nov-13 01:20:38

You need to see the SENCO but you know that but also try the school nurse.

All the ERIC links others have put on here are fab too.

One thing I did when my son was soiling through constipation was set up a school kit. It was a drawstring bag (like a PE bag) with a full change of uniform in inc about 4 pairs of undies and socks. I added baby wipes and nappy sacks.

My son was 7 at the time and very blush so I also did a set of pictures on a keyring attached inside the bag which took him through the steps to take to clean himself up if he had an accident plus he had a card in the bag to hand to an adult if he had an accident so they were aware and could offer help / send the bag home at the end of the day... My son has ASD so visuals are our thing and we practised at home too - he never needed it but it brought his anxiety about having an accident right down.

Your son might be a bit little to do it himself, especially if his soiling is large amounts (my son wouldn't have managed more than a bit) but not for a card to show his teacher if he needs help with toileting and if he knows he has spares at school that will help.

We were in a school that were not very good at the time and I could see the sniggers when I took that in but strangely enough a friend rang me about a month later to thank me as her son had come home in a pair of my sons undies (they were labelled) and when I checked other bits, like the nappy sacks were used so obviously it wasnt such a bloody stupid idea after all nor was it particularly unusual as I left the bag there long past my son needing it and I was handed undies in the playground by more than one mum during that time wink

You are not alone OP - there is always advice on here

CrohnicallyTired Wed 06-Nov-13 06:59:19

Dayshiftdoris- I like the idea of a card to hand to an adult. From a school perspective, it is very difficult when a child won't tell you if they've had an accident. Believe it or not, you don't always notice the smell in a busy classroom, it builds up gradually and gets kind of lost in the general sweaty/ play doh/ trumpy children smell. Usually the giveaway is when someone else comes into the classroom (or you go out and return) when the smell hits you clear as day. Bit like when you're on the toilet you don't notice the smell of your poo as bad as when your partner's been and you walk into it! But I can see that a card would allow a child to discreetly ask for help without having to actually utter the words, and I will be suggesting it at our school, as we have a few children with continence problems at school. Each child has their own kit, plus we keep spares, nappy sacks and wipes around in case any other child has an accident.

As an aside- there is a shop (think it's linked to ERIC) that does pants especially for children who soil, they have a hidden waterproof layer to contain mess, but look and feel exactly like regular pants so no problems with children using them as a nappy, or the other children teasing. Or if your child is small, there are toddler cloth training pants that look remarkably similar to regular pants, and have only a small amount of absorbent material.

sharpesttool Wed 06-Nov-13 07:13:47

In the school I worked in a ta cleaned children up (me) when they had an accident whether through sen or just plain being four and being engrossed in an activity.

It was very discreet and I am very sad how they are handling it, my cousins school used to send her home too,

CrohnicallyTired Wed 06-Nov-13 07:22:39

Oh, just remembered something else, we have a kind of home school agreement with the children with frequent continence difficulties. It outlines the help a child might need, details members of staff who parents have agreed can help their child, and parents and staff sign it. It helps to cover members of staff against safeguarding allegations- it is a very vulnerable place to be put in. Either you go with a child to the toilet and shut the door, which is a position we were taught never to leave yourself in in case of allegations. Or you change the child in a relatively public place (such as inside the toilets with the cubicle for open) which is then embarrassing for the child. An agreement helps to make sure that the child and parents are comfortable with the level of help and physical contact being given.

In the absence of an agreement, I have been known to phone parents when, for whatever reason, the child has indicated that they are not happy with physical contact, and are not capable or willing to clean themselves up.

WooWooOwl Wed 06-Nov-13 08:22:43

I think you are confusing issues here. Your ds being supervised when he's sent out of class and having someone available to change him are two different things, and they may well be happening at different times of the day.

Children who are sent out of class are usually still visible to the teacher or the TA, in my experience they only sit by the door so they are being supervised while the staff are working with other children. His behaviour must be extreme if they are needing to send him out so frequently this early into reception.

Also, surely sending a child out doesn't actually help unless they understand what they have done.

This depends on what you are trying to achieve. If your ds really is being very disruptive, then sending him out allows the teacher to teach the rest of the class. That might not help your ds, but nearly all children need a lot of support when they start in reception and the teacher simply cannot dedicate a huge amount of time to one child, or allow all of her teaching sessions to be disrupted without letting an entire class down. I agree that they should be making sure your ds knows why he is being sent out, but the fact that he won't tell you doesn't mean that he doesn't know or wasn't warned or told about it.

suziesmummy Wed 06-Nov-13 08:38:16

You need to speak to the doctor and see if there is a medical reason for his accidents. If there isn't then I don't think its fair for the TA or teacher to have to continuously clean it up

Kyrptonite Wed 06-Nov-13 08:41:46

Suzie there is a medical reason. The head teacher hadn't heard of it so wasn't that helpful.

I do understand he is disrupting the class. This is partly why we have requested SENCO involvement. I don't want DS to be that child. But he should be supported as the rest of the class should be. They can apply for 2 terms of support without a statement rather than just write him off now.

WooWooOwl Wed 06-Nov-13 08:48:02

It's very unlikely that they are writing him off, and the teacher probably is pushing for support. I know that in my schools the teachers would be in this situation, but that doesn't mean it will be forthcoming.

And of course your ds deserves the same support as the rest of the class, but if he's being particularly disruptive then he probably is having a disproportionate amount of attention and time being dedicated to him.

There is only so much a teacher and a TA can do while they are trying to meet the needs of an entire class of four year olds.

Four years old is so little for children to be starting school, and some children just aren't ready to cope with it.

ladyrainy Wed 06-Nov-13 08:51:28

oh my goodness - your poor little boy sad

Does your GP know that ds is now starting to hold onto his poo?

You could ask your GP to refer ds to a developmental paediatrician due to concerns about ADHD and his not settling in school.

Have you spoken to the school nurse - is she/he aware what's going on?

You could also speak to parent partnership as they may also be able to help.

ladyrainy Wed 06-Nov-13 08:57:07

OP - you might be more likely to get advice from posters who have had experience of this by asking MNHQ to move this to children's health or special needs.

friday16 Wed 06-Nov-13 09:06:33

I think I'm bloody annoyed because we chose this school based on it being small

Small schools have fewer supernumary staff, fewer resources and are less likely to have fully trained support staff. I know it's an orthodoxy that small schools are "caring" and "friendly" while larger schools are "faceless", but larger schools are also far more likely to have the resources to deal with issues, for there to be multiple children affected and therefore both less incentive to brush it under the carpet, and more chance of having a spare member of staff to deal with things. Children won't be in mixed-age groups, so reception teachers will specialise in reception, there will be at the very least a supernumary head and various of the specialists (the SENCO, in particularly) will often be only part-time classroom teachers so will have dedicated time available for their other role.

There was a thread on Primary a few weeks ago about some horror show of a naice village school completely failing at inclusion, and the conclusion I took from it was to be grateful that my children's primary was a three form intake with over six hundred children.

yonisareforever Wed 06-Nov-13 09:50:01

Sorry if I have missed this from your OP but it seems you are going through the head rather than talking to the actual teacher and TA about how to handle it.

I would try approaching them, and explaining, as them hearing it from a head who isnt sympathetic may not explain to them whats going on so well.

OddBoots Wed 06-Nov-13 09:55:58

I'm not excusing the school as they need to arrange a plan to deal with his needs but on a practical level it is policy in some/many schools that for intimate care needs there needs to be two adults in order to protect the child from a abuse and the staff from accusations of abuse. For one-to-one supervision then only one member of staff is needed. Sadly in small schools it is a real struggle to have two available spare members of staff to change a child.

Lamu Wed 06-Nov-13 10:20:42

I remember your other thread. I can't believe you're still having to push for the school to support your Ds. It doesn't wash with me that a small school= limited resources therefore unable to meet his needs. It doesn't seem they are taking this seriously.

Are you able to get your GP to write to the school outlining his condition? It might carry more weight iyswim. I have no direct experience of a situation like this but I'd be asking myself if this particular school is right place for my child.

MILLYMOLLYMANDYMAX Wed 06-Nov-13 12:31:42

I actually think you should remove him from the school and home ed for a while if you are in a position to do so or at the very least change schools. We had a situation with ds who despite being a well behaved little boy in reception. He had no toileting issues. He started in year 1, which had been taken over by a new teacher, who sent him out of the classroom at every opportunity.
When I found out from one of his fellow classmates I saw the head immediately. The teacher was removed immediately and never returned. Remember whilst he is out of the classroom he is not in the classroom learning. We are still picking up the pieces from those 5 months of no schooling.

I was lucky that the head knew me and my son. If the head is looking for any infringement and his teacher is sending him out of the room without him knowing what he has done wrong, then he is being set up to fail. The pressure he must be under must be terrible. I really feel for him

Kyrptonite Wed 06-Nov-13 14:11:47

Back from the hospital. DS is going to be on a minimum of 2 sachets of movicol a day possibly going up to as many as 12 (according to consultant) until the impaction in his bowels has gone.

There's no way I can even ask the school to deal with this is there? I don't know whether to take him in tomorrow and explain the situation and say I'm more than happy to pick him up if its leaking out of him or just keep him off until it's sorted. The dr said it could take as long as he's had the issue to resolve which is about a year. I'm only on mat leave until June. I can't physically afford to home ed him for that length of time.

If I remove him from school his behavior (which worsened considerably after starting) may become extremely worse when he eventually goes back into the school environment.

I really don't know what to do

MotherofBear Wed 06-Nov-13 14:22:45

I would speak to his teacher and discuss it with him/her, see what they think is best. They surely must have something in place to help children who have additional needs of one sort or another.

I just want to give your DS a massive hug, poor kid. It can't be nice being sent out of the classroom without understanding why. And the poor boy can't help the toilet issue, bless him.

I'm glad you've managed to get help with his problem, I really hope you get things sorted with the school now.

WooWooOwl Wed 06-Nov-13 14:23:24

If you're on mat leave I'd keep sending him to school, but know that you are on call to go in and clean him up any time it's needed. It sounds like he needs his reception year and removing him entirely should be a last resort. You are still entitled to have him part time if you want to though, which might be worth discussing with the school.

Hopefully though the accidents at school will remain infrequent, and you won't need to go in often.

FeisMom Wed 06-Nov-13 14:30:35

Kryptonite it might be worth reporting your thread and having it moved to the SN section, where you will get great advice from experienced parents who have all been through similar before

mumofweeboys Wed 06-Nov-13 14:35:02

I would go and ask for a meeting with head, senco teacher ASAP. They need to have all the information so up you can make an informed choice together. Has the school given you an iep? My ds1 just started school and teacher notice in the first week his concentration issues (had autistic assessment when younger and was cleared), she wrote a plan for him.

My school have been brilliant but they are used to dealing with additional needs kids. It might be worth looking at other schools that have better provision for him if your not getting the help you both need.

Also might be worth posting on the sn board.

YouTheCat Wed 06-Nov-13 14:42:26

Our school wouldn't bat an eyelid at the soiling issues.

Is changing school an option? It doesn't sound like your ds will get the support he needs where he is.

Kyrptonite Wed 06-Nov-13 16:30:42

It is an option but I'm wary of unsettling him and it happening again.

ILoveAFullFridge Wed 06-Nov-13 17:27:32

The fact that his behaviour deteriorated when he started Reception does not mean that it will be worse if he takes a break and then returns to school. He might not have been ready for school, and a break may help him.

My instinct would be to reduce his hours, so that he is under less stress at school. Maybe mornings only, and see whether he will take a nap in the afternoon, or some afternoons. (Not a ridiculous suggestion, BTW. An afternoon nap used to be standard in Reception.)

Definitely insist on a meeting with Head, SENCO and class teacher to discuss your ds's needs and how they are going to support him. Even if you decide to take him out completely for a while, you should have this meeting in preparation for his return.

Post on the SN board for advice on what you can do and what you can expect fr

I work as a TA in Early Years. Our school requires that 2 members of staff are present when cleaning up a child who had soiled themselves (poo) for safeguarding of both the child and the staff member.

We need documentation on any medical conditions (not allowed to google, we need specific info from the doc or other professionals involved)

I think you might be better asking to meet with the class teacher to discuss this out of school hours to see how they can work with you.

teacherandguideleader Wed 06-Nov-13 19:01:00

I'm in secondary so I know it is different but neither me nor any of my TAs would be allowed to change a child who had soiled themselves. I believe they have to be specially trained in personal care. This could explain why there was no one to clean your son but there was someone to stand with a child outside of class. If they don't need special training then they would often require two members of staff.

MrsLouisTheroux Wed 06-Nov-13 19:35:14

Your son needs more support than a normal run of the mill primary school teachers TA offer. He needs to be assessed and have SEN/ care plan put in place.
He obviously needs support but teachers/ TAs don't and can't clean up children who have accidents. Parents are usually phoned and asked to come and deal with it.

greenfolder Wed 06-Nov-13 19:42:49

I would seriously go and visit any other schools that are feasible. Find one that has procedures already in place and a decent senco that knows what they are doing.

sublimelime Wed 06-Nov-13 19:52:14

MrsLoiusTheroux You are wrong. TAs and teachers can, as in they are allowed to clean up soiled children, legally. Teachers cannot be expected to. TAs can be expected to if it is within their job description. All schools have a Duty of Care to children which includes not leaving them in soiled clothing. Schools should also have a continence policy.

mrsjay Wed 06-Nov-13 19:56:27

HI i think you need to make an appointment with the school and the Sen department for a care plan for your son asap especially if he is going to be on a lot of movicol inci wouldnt send him to school if you have to increase the movicol up to 12 sachets which he will just poo non stop , also phone up your local authority and ask to speak to somebody who deals with children with special needs (they are called different for different areas) your son wont be sent out alone and I think if he is distrupting the class then perhaps him going out is the best for him and the whole class, I hope it works out for you but i do think you need to go higher especially if he might have sen of any kind

WooWooOwl Wed 06-Nov-13 19:57:09

It sounds like the bigger problem is the behaviour from what OP has said. She says the toileting accidents are infrequent at school now, although I realise that movicol might change that.

mrsjay Wed 06-Nov-13 20:14:14

yes I did mean get a care plan for al his needs maybe not how it came across , his needs are not being met really are they which is such a shame he is only 4,

Kyrptonite Wed 06-Nov-13 20:21:18

Thank you.
I've sent an email to the school outlining the pooing issue and including his consultants phone number. I've also mentioned that I would be interested in knowing their behaviour strategies for DS as he claims to be sent out or excluded and that seems to go against the ethos of the EYFS. I did say I realise 4 year olds have a loose grasp of the truth
I put in the email that I was aware that schools can apply for two terms of support without a statement and asked if they were willing to do this or if I would need to find a school that meets DS's needs.

I know email isn't ideal but they are so rushed in the mornings and we aren't supposed to walk the kids to their classrooms but leave them at the school door so I rarely see his teacher. This way it gives them a chance to have a think rather than me charging in there and putting them on the spot!

mrsjay Wed 06-Nov-13 20:27:28

the email is the first step I think it is a better idea like you said the morning isn't the best time hope they get back to you quicker, I never undertsnad the statement needed fo X Y Z in scotland they dont need a statement for extra help at school it is a different system, anyway I am rambling on I hope they get back to you and do take care of the movicol I take it and trying to get it right is a hit and miss

Kyrptonite Wed 06-Nov-13 21:27:54

I'm also going to contact the council tomorrow and speak to someone and I will make a list of potential new schools.

TrumptonVandal Wed 06-Nov-13 21:45:53

Your poor boy. sad And poor you! Am watching this thread with interest as we are going through similar.

foreverondiet Wed 06-Nov-13 21:50:03

At my dc school and nursery the policy is if your child has a poo accident you have to come and collect them immediately - might be different for a child with sn.

sublimelime Wed 06-Nov-13 22:18:39

forever the school / nursery have a Duty of Care though. They absolutely cannot leave a child in soiled clothing and claim their Duty lies with a parent whilst the child is in their care. The parent might have a job they cannot leave immediately and get to their child in adequate time, a nurse, fire fighter or even teacher for example. Yes they would collect their child if ill, but in the meantime the school should care for the child until they arrive. Leaving a child in soiled pants is not adequate care.

sandiy Wed 06-Nov-13 22:57:10

You should have been Adviced to do movicol over a weekend if you can,It's really not a good idea to send you son to school while he is disempacting.He is going to have the most shocking runny poo and also all the solid poo that he has nt passed will be really smelly.Basically if you follow the plan over the next few days he should be cleared out by next week.I warn you it will be messy.Its really important that you follow the instructions properly.Dealing with constipation is belt and braces.Once you cleared him out it's important he has high fibre diet and plenty to drink of water based fluids aim for six big drinks.He should have movicol just one or two sachets to keep his poosoft then the soiling should stop.
ADHD wise he can be assessed and medicated if neccesarily from age six.I do wonder if you may not be better in a larger school ADHD can be challenging at best and your little boy will not be able to help his behaviour if that's the case.Your health visitor or school nurse will be able to offer you additional face to face support.Good luck

Kyrptonite Thu 07-Nov-13 08:32:28

He could be dis impacting for months. He's been like this for over a year so it is highly unlikely that movicol over the course of a weekend will change things dramatically.

mrsjay Thu 07-Nov-13 08:46:20

You should have been Adviced to do movicol over a weekend

^ ^ this not his usual dose of course but if you need to give him quite a lot of sachets then i wouldnt do it on a school day either as he will be miserable

ladyrainy Thu 07-Nov-13 08:50:46

what about taking a week off to get the movicol established with him? Then you can see how he goes after that.

thegreylady Thu 07-Nov-13 08:57:09

Could you put boxers over a pullup for school to avoid the PE embarrassment? Poor little boy. The school isn't handlimg this very sensitively at all.

mrsjay Thu 07-Nov-13 08:58:14

I'm also going to contact the council tomorrow and speak to someone and I will make a list of potential new schools.

I hope you get it sorted

No you are not over reacting. Years ago someone (ofsted??) published guidance about toilet training, children with SN and accidents & basically said mainstream schools needed to stop making a fuss, and ensure they had resources to deal with it.

An on phone now but will see if I can find later x

CalamityKate Thu 07-Nov-13 09:29:48

When my son was in reception he went through a phase of having accidents about every 2 weeks.
The school was fantastic. All that happened was that after the first couple of times his teacher asked us to provide a note giving permission for the school to change him.
She was charmingly good natured about the whole thing - all she was worried about was DSs comfort and dignity.

MILLYMOLLYMANDYMAX Thu 07-Nov-13 09:39:06

Could there be a connection between him soiling himself and his behaviour getting worse at school. It must be unpleasant, embarassing and knocking his confidence to soil himself infront of his class mates. If you can i would remove him from the school permanently and home ed for a while, get his bowel problem sorted then put him back in a different school. At the moment i get the impression from your posts that the involvement with the school is causing you huge stress and it cannot be good for you or him. Even a few weeks without this stress could make all the difference.
As someone who tried to keep ds in school by trying to talk and plan and generally bend over backwards with the school over ds's education the relief we both felt when the decision to pull him out of school permanently was made was immense.
I know home education sounds a huge thing to do but there is lots of suport from the home ed community and I think if the head is watching to see if he puts a foot wrong and his teacher is sending him out of the classroom when he doesn't know why then that would indicate that the relationship you have with the school has irretrievably broken down.
There would be no way i would be sending him in to that sort of enviroment for a second more.

Sorry to be so dramatic but in ds's case the class started to pick up on the fact he was not liked by the teachers and that was when the bullying and teasing because he could not read started.

Outofyourmouth Thu 07-Nov-13 10:20:55

I know you are not keen to put him back in pull ups, but you might see and improvement in his behaviour. My DD had soiling accidents in reception and the staff always cleaned her up afterwards, but I took the decision that they were becoming too frequent and returned to pull ups. The teacher soon reported that her learning and behaviour improved, and we think it had removed the stress of constantly worrying about the toilet. She was not bullied and was supported by the teachers and children in her class.

DD has other delays and was on Schoool Action Plus with an Individual Education Plan (IEP) because of her behaviour and I encorage you to talk to his teacher and senco to get this for your son. I am surprised they haven't approached you about this already. Get all reports from the doctors, paediatricians etc copied to the senco so they have all the information about your sons condition, then they have no excuses to say they have not been informed. If the school are still being unhelpful then follow your instinct and look for a new one, your son deserves a supportive and nurturing environment, not one that see's him as an inconvenience.

Best of luck x.

Outofyourmouth Thu 07-Nov-13 10:24:18

Oh and find out if you have a Paediatric continence service in your area, they were a great support for me with Dd.

sublimelime Thu 07-Nov-13 10:32:56

I think you can get removable incontinence pads to put inside pants for children.

MrsFlorrick Thu 07-Nov-13 10:44:57

Your poor DS. That's awful.

My DD started reception this year. She is the youngest in her class (summer baby).

She has had a couple of accidents during the first term. Wet herself twice and a poo accident. She has change of knickers and tights in her bag.

DD doesn't have any sen or medical issues. She is just still very young like your DS and accidents can happen.

The school change her absolutely no problem. They even washed out the poo knickers so it wouldn't smell.

They provide plastic bags for the soiled items and its dealt with sensitively.

Plenty of DDs other little friends have had an accident or two.

I just don't understand how the schools can expect small children who have just turned 4 to make it to the loo every time? Particularly when they are in class and there may be a few minutes delay of getting to the loo. And as everyone know small children only ask for the loo when they are very close to actually wetting themselves.

I hate to read about all these poor DC who spend a day soiled in school because the schools don't look after them.

It's not acceptable. It's not as if my DD isn't toilet trained. She is fully. But an accident is just that.

And if the school leave them soiled then surely they will be even more afraid of soiling and then more likely to do so out of fear. sad

Kyrptonite Thu 07-Nov-13 11:02:08

He came out once and burst into tears in the car because he had had an accident just before carpet time and couldn't sit down properly on the carpet because of it.

I've put in an application for the local school. It's bigger and the list of support staff is as big as the list of teachers which seemed good.

Outofyourmouth Thu 07-Nov-13 11:45:26

Hi Kryptonite, I think you are doing the right thing. A fresh start at a more supportive school who better understand your sons needs will be good for all of you. I hope it all works out ok.

Kyrptonite Thu 07-Nov-13 11:54:07

Thank you.
I haven't had a reply to my email from current school yet. I'm now slightly dreading pick up time!
I'm going to start the movicol at the weekend and possibly go back to trying a reward chart with him. He's regressed slightly in his play and has become obsessed with the die cast cars from the Disney film so I may offer a star for every time he poos in the loo or takes his medicine so he can 'earn' new cars.
He hates the movicol. Ive had to hide it in hot chocolate before or he becomes hysterical at the idea of taking it hmm

Quangle Thu 07-Nov-13 12:06:46

OP, I'm angry for you and DS. My DD had four accidents in a term at her nursery attached to a primary school. She was just turned three, had a brand new baby brother and this was her first ever time in a care-outside-the-home setting.

The school went nuts - accused me of lying about having potty trained her, threw all that stuff around about not having enough staff available to clean up soiled children, and after accident number 4, threatened to have her removed from the school. I moved her pretty sharpish.

This self-important "we're too busy to deal with it" thing is not acceptable for professionals working with early years. I understand that teachers don't want to be potty training children whose parents are too lazy to bother but you and I are not those parents - and yet they seem only too willing to use that label. In your case, there's a medical situation the school is simply failing to manage. I think you are doing the right thing by looking at another school.

CalamityKate's experience is what should happen - but it's quite common that it doesn't happen and the children suffer as a result.

I do hope you make progress soon and DS gets through this with his confidence intact.

eofa1 Thu 07-Nov-13 12:32:15

You might not like it, but the fact is that a school telling you they don't have the resources to change a soiled child regularly is most likely nothing to do with them being "self important", but really that they errr, don't have the resources. Nothing unreasonable in asking that a child who soils himself regularly wear pull-ups.

Quangle Thu 07-Nov-13 12:37:37

well if that's the case then they are not equipped to deal with 30 three year olds who are not allowed to wear pullups...Most schools do not permit pullups these days.

Under 5s have regular accidents - my daughter had 4 accidents in a term at literally just turned three and they threatened to throw her out of school. What on earth do they expect of three year olds? The reaction is not proportionate. And with four team members, they weren't under-resourced, just under-bothered.

eofa1 Thu 07-Nov-13 12:43:29

I think you've got absolutely no grounds to accuse them of not being bothered. You have no idea what other pressures those team members were under or what they had to deal with.

eofa1 Thu 07-Nov-13 12:47:59

And if you've accepted a child on the basis that they're potty trained, and then they have four accidents in a term, it's not unreasonable to raise this with the parent.

Leopoldina Thu 07-Nov-13 12:50:07

Can you take him out of school for a few days and together with 2x weekend days make a serious attempt to dis-impact? 2 sachets a day are not going to do that - you'll need to go up one or two sachets a day until there's a major clear out (& you'll know when that happens) - took us up to 12 / day. We were advised by our consultant that movicol is ONLY for disimpacting and when that's taken place & you titrate down by 1x sachet a day you need to introduce senna (starting at 5ml / day and going up 1ml / day until you get a daily poo, stick at that dose for a few weeks then try titrating back down 1ml / day making sure you still get the daily poo. we went up to around 20ml / day of senna before going back downwards. THe great thing with the senna is that you can pretty much set your watch for the poo and can time the medicine to make sure it happens when he's at home.
Movicol won't help a lazy bowel - only senna can make him aware of the contractions & what the sensation of needing to go is like.
our consultant was a godsend (he was the 3rd we ended up with) and he did tell us that Movicol gets heavily over prescribed because it is NEW and therefore has been tested whereas the old fashioned remedies that have been around decades don't have a drug company with a licence pushing them on doctors and reams of data behind them. Doesn't mean they don't WORK. He was also v connected iwth the setting up of the ERIC charity and that website was a great help.

hope that's some help.

Leopoldina Thu 07-Nov-13 12:51:42

eofa1 - you do realise that schools can't refuse to accept a child on teh basis that they're not potty trained? and that a large number of developmental issues can contribute to accidents of either kind? I think what you seem to be advocating is disability discrimination but I may be reading you wrongly.

eofa1 Thu 07-Nov-13 12:56:57

I was responding to Quangle, who appeared to be talking about a nursery rather than a school. As I undertood it, rules were different for nurseries. I also wasn't saying that the nursery should refuse to take Quangle's child, just that if she told the nursery the child was potty trained, and the child had repeated accidents, it was not unreasonable for the nursery to raise the issue.

Kyrptonite Thu 07-Nov-13 13:02:16

Thank you. I hadn't heard about Senna but we are seeing the consultant again in 6 weeks so I will mention it to him.

openseason Thu 07-Nov-13 13:11:32

watching daybreak yesterday and they were saying kids should start school at 2 this is precisely my point.the teachers say they help out but they don,t i rember when my child was 3 in nursery she was potty trained but ocasional acciden,t happen and i came to collect her the teacher said oh she,s done it again infront of every one and said my child was lazy [had a poo inpants]

i was so angry the next day i said could you please remind her to go to the toilet has sometimes she may just be excited and you know how children are for holding it in i said if you won,t ill take her to the toilet mysel fat the start of nursery. i told them she was potty trained before she came here and now she,s here it,s got worse so that day the teacher said my dd had gone to toilet and they made sure that day on it never happened again i,m cross you have to shout a little to be heard sometimes.

Quangle Thu 07-Nov-13 13:20:44

I do have grounds to judge them on this - as a parent with experience of the school. I can only judge them on how they treat me and my child and it wasn't good. My child was in that school (it was a nursery class attached to a primary) for two terms so plenty of time to evaluate their standards and judge them accordingly. And they didn't "raise it with me". They told me, and her, that she would have to leave the school if it happened again. Oh and also accused her of "lying" about it. Clearly it is utterly ludicrous to threaten a three year old with removal from school because of four accidents over the course of three months. As it happens, she never did it again (because, ironically, she didn't have any problems being potty trained and grew out of accidents very, very quickly) but their attitude was totally unbending and aggressive towards me. I ended up offering to bring in my Sainsbury's receipts so that they could see I no longer ordered any nappies...they were determined that I was one of "those" parents - enough to make me have quite a bit of sympathy for anyone who does struggle with potty training because their determination to demonise us was quite shocking.

But I am not meaning to derail this thread - my point is that the way the school have managed this for the OP and her son is not thoughtful or appropriate (and that is not unusual if my experience is anything to go by). The shame is, as many posters have pointed out, there are schools managing this in a very thoughtful and sympathetic way and it is perfectly manageable if they wish to make it so. If they are not set up to manage this then they need to reallocate resources because nothing could be more expected than young children having accidents.

Snatchoo Thu 07-Nov-13 13:26:04

My twins had unreliable soiling issues through pre-school, now at half way through the first term in Reception it's tailed off to very very rarely.

I never, ever had a problem with either school in changing the boys, I just made sure they had a good supply of wipes and spare pants. My two are speech delayed and both schools have SEN provision. I'm disgusted the response you have had and hope it's sorted for you soon.

openseason Thu 07-Nov-13 13:35:15

id also like to point out at the time my daughter was 3 i used to bring a fresh pair of pants in her bag and wipes the nursery suggested to me stop bringing them because my child might rely on being changed but ive always packed a bag with wipes and pants just incase. i think they thought if i leave the bag she would be aware there,s nothing to change into but if i had woulden,t they be in much more of a mess can,t win.

Kyrptonite Thu 07-Nov-13 13:50:45

Thank you. He has spare clothes and wipes in his PE bag so I make sure there's always stuff available and the one time he's had a wee accident he changed himself and didn't tell the staff. He's just not able to clean up poo reliably on his own although I am trying to get him to at least have a go.

Greensleeves Thu 07-Nov-13 14:02:22

I have no respect for teachers/TAs who refuse to change soiled children if required. If you teach/care for early years children then poo, wee and sick go along with the job and that's that. Children cannot learn when they are uncomfortable/worried.

If the school "can't spare" somebody to sort out a child after an accident, then they are not staffing their early years classes appropriately.

openseason Thu 07-Nov-13 14:29:45

well said greensleeves i think to make a child feel small like they have done somthing what they cant help is unforgivable what doe,s that teach the child that they cant rely on adults and just to hide there accident and feel ashamed.

Retroformica Thu 07-Nov-13 14:35:32

Is he being sent into another classroom or to the admin staff area?

If your son is thoroughly disrupting the classes education, then it's only fair he is removed. Have you asked the school what he is doing? Have you explained to the school that he doesn't understand?

Retroformica Thu 07-Nov-13 14:38:34

I do believe they should be changing the child but it might be that staff need to have official training to tick official boxes.

Ring the LEA and ofsted if you feel there is neglect.

Retroformica Thu 07-Nov-13 14:40:12

In fact I would probably write to the governors after exhausting all avenues with teachers/staff to highlight the neglect. Make sure you use the words 'duty of care'

Kyrptonite Thu 07-Nov-13 14:42:55

I work in Early Years and I've never had to have training to change a child. CRB check and safeguarding training but that's it and I think anyone working with young children has to have done safeguarding. I may be wrong though!

CrohnicallyTired Thu 07-Nov-13 14:47:09

We (as a school) have had 'managing continence' training, unfortunately I couldn't attend due to no child care (outside my normal working hours). So training does exist.

Greensleeves Thu 07-Nov-13 14:52:15

I'm a fairly recently qualified primary teacher and before that worked in an Outstanding state nursery school for five years - I've changed more shitty arses than I've had hot dinners grin and never had specific training for it. Ditto blood and vomit. There's no excuse for neglecting the physical needs of very young children.

MILLYMOLLYMANDYMAX Thu 07-Nov-13 15:00:37

Just seen the recent posts re children being potty trained by the time they are 3. Dd was still in nappies at 2 3/4 but then went over to wearing knickers one Monday, was fine on the Monday, had an accident on the Tuesday then apart from 1 accident months later she was fine. Ds on the other hand had no interest in potty training until he was 3 1/2 and didn't fully wear pants until he was nearly 4. I think some children need more time than others. Both went to nursery. I couldn't imagine being told at 3 if ds wasn't potty trained he would be slung out of nursery.

WooWooOwl Thu 07-Nov-13 15:03:42

I work in reception and have never been trained to clean up poo either. I've only had to do it a few times over the years, but we did used to have one child that refused to allow us to change him when he had an accident, no matter what we did to try and persuade him, so the only thing we could do was to call his parents and let them deal with it. They weren't happy about it, but there is no way we should be forced into a position where we had to provide intimate care for a child against their will.

If a child was having accidents every day, we would ask parents to deal with it too. It's not fair on the rest of the class if the one support staff member is constantly taken away from the rest of the class. Occasional accidents are not a problem though.

Morgause Thu 07-Nov-13 15:47:11

I guess it depends on the level of support available.

I started teaching I the 70s and teachers were not expected to change children who'd had accidents. There were only 2 TAs for the entire school and if one was available then she would do it. Teachers were not allowed to leave the rest of the class unsupervised in order to help, I would expect that to be the same today.

We had a supply of clean knickers available and if it was just wet pants then children were given clean ones to change into and the wet ones sent home. If it was poo and they couldn't deal with it themselves and there wasn't a TA available then a parent was sent for. This didn't happen often.

I expect the same thing sometimes happens today. In an ideal world there would be a TA available at all times but the world isn't ideal and sometimes there is no alternative but to send for a parent. Other children cannot be left unsupervised.

youarewinning Thu 07-Nov-13 16:02:08

Your post resounded with me. My DS also is currently under Camhs and has had bowel/soiling issues for many years. He's now 9yo. At 3/4 he presented as hyperactive - so similar to ADHD but as he's matured he's called down and the real social communication issues have emerged and he's being assessed for ASD/AS.
His cons pead has suggested his bowel issues are related to anxiety and sensory issues. For example he doesn't like leaving an activity to go yo the loo, rushes back so doesn't empty bowels properly send only seems to realise he needs a poo - as he needs it iykwim? He's been on laxido (movicol) for a number of years now so impaction isn't an issue and it hasn't resolved the toile ting issue other than he cannot hold stools so prevents further impaction.
I would look again at getting GP to refer to Camhs or developmental pead. Hopefully school will be able to back you up and also continence nurse so there's more weight to the request iykwim?

I'm so sorry both you and your boy are being treated this way. I'm not sure how the school expect hi to improve his behaviour when he doesn't know what he's meant yo be improving.

Pop over to special needs boards - the knowable posters there have been invaluable support to me over the past year.

CrohnicallyTired Thu 07-Nov-13 21:23:30

The training covered a little more than 'cleaning up poo'. As well as how to clean up poo in a way that doesn't leave you wide open to accusations of abuse, it touched on things school should be doing to prevent the need to clean up poo. Hence 'managing continence' not 'managing incontinence'.

I'm not saying that not having training is an excuse to not clean a child who has had an accident- but training is there, and if there are children with known difficulties (who are not being suitably looked after) perhaps the OP should raise the issue with school?

3littlefrogs Thu 07-Nov-13 21:39:50

Impaction, encopresis and behavioural problems go together.

The pain and discomfort and anxiety around the bowel issues result in behavioural problems and lack of concentration, inability to sit still etc.

I am really appalled that your poor little boy has been left without a proper diagnosis and treatment for so long. It will take at least as long as the problem has existed to resolve it. You need to follow the treatment religiously, as any break can result in going right back to square one.

I don't think a four year old can be expected to cope with disimpaction treatment and bowel training and go to school, TBH. He will have to have some time off during the initial days and weeks of treatment, at the very least.

I hope you manage to get a plan in place. It does sound as if the school isn't right for him if the HT is as ignorant as it sounds from your post.

Kyrptonite Fri 08-Nov-13 18:08:09

I have a meeting with the school on Tuesday. I have just realised that if I pull him out for a week or so whilst we deal with the impaction it could go down as unauthorised absence and I will be fined.

I really don't know what to do.

3littlefrogs Fri 08-Nov-13 18:14:07

Surely if he is only 4 he doesn't legally have to be in school?
I would have thought you could get a consultant's letter for disimpaction treatment, if necessary.

Kyrptonite Fri 08-Nov-13 18:16:18

Can they not fine before 5 then? I thought it was once he was on a school register then that was it.

friday16 Fri 08-Nov-13 18:26:12

I have just realised that if I pull him out for a week or so whilst we deal with the impaction it could go down as unauthorised absence and I will be fined.

No, because you'd tell them to fuck off and they wouldn't dare do anything about it. "See you in court".

Kyrptonite Fri 08-Nov-13 18:33:47

grin friday

DS was saying earlier he likes his teacher but the head teacher hurts his feelings. He won't say why. I'd relish the opportunity to tell them to fuck off right now.

reup Fri 08-Nov-13 18:44:41

My son has similar problems and sees a consultant at Great Ormond Street. We did the loads of movicol for 3 days to clear an impaction. Our Dr only recommended 3 days of it then back to a lower dose. If I remember it was 3x3 for 3 days, the a maintenance dose of something like 2x2. He is now down to 2x1.

You can buy chocolate paediatric movicol. Or mix with correct amount of water and add a dash of nesquick or similar.

The thing that has helped the most is regularly taking them to the loo. I do it within 30 mins of breakfast and evening meal. They have to stay for at least 10 mins (or earlier if they poo). This stopped ALL the accidents (though he does still have small skid mark leakages). My son plays on something electronic ( though my itouch never recovered from being drooped in the loo!)

Kyrptonite Fri 08-Nov-13 18:58:08

I'm thinking of giving him my tablet and letting him watch an episode of something whilst he sits on the toilet.

How long did it take for your sons accidents to stop?

reup Fri 08-Nov-13 19:24:46

It was really fast. We had been struggling for 2 years (between age 2-4) with constipation, withholding, soiling. Continence nurse and local hospital hadn't helped. We had half heartedly tried regular toileting when first potty training. This time we did the 3 days of clear out then regular toileting. He was at school nursery then so I think we often tried after lunch too.

It was really great and for the next year we managed his problem so he didn't take himself but didn't have proper accidents either.

He then had an amazing 3 months of being totally normal and taking himself but then regressed which was depressing. Meanwhile he had various investigations at hospital to rule out anything more serious. After a colonoscopy they found he does have some sort of food intolerance but we had previously tried a wheat free and a dairy free diet to no avail. So now they are trying new meds to counteract that!

He is also seeing a psychologist there which hasn't done a great deal. He is also on the waiting list for play therapy via the school.

He doesn't have any concentration/behaviour issues though (that is my other child!)

Its all very hard. Unlike other posters I found the Eric site depressing as there were so many older children with the same issues that I could see no hope.

I also bought/downloaded every poo story ever. There is one called sneaky poo that hospitals use as well.

reup Fri 08-Nov-13 19:28:41

Also if he's been constipated or withholding his rectum will have enlarged (he had to swallow different shaped plastic bits for 3 days and then they xrayed him to see how far the had got. Mist just got stuck there). It will take a while to get back the muscle tone.

3littlefrogs Fri 08-Nov-13 21:04:09

It usually takes at least as long as the problem has existed, sometimes twice as long. Treatment often has to be continued for years. It has to be viewed as a long term issue.

cece Sat 09-Nov-13 15:51:36

I agree DD had problems for about 4 years before any doctors would take it seriously. She took movicol for 4/5 years before it was completely sorted.

Kyrptonite Sat 09-Nov-13 21:35:08

The consultant gave DS a schedule for the movicol.

Day 1- 2 sachets once a day
Day 2- 4 sachets once a day
Day 3- 6 sachets once a day
Day 4- 8 sachets once a day
Day 5- 4 sachets once a day for 10 days.

Am I understanding this correctly? 4 sachets in one go as opposed to 1 sachet 4 times a day? It's hard enough hiding once sachet in a drink!

reup Mon 11-Nov-13 10:26:38

That the opposite way to how the consultant prescribed for my son for his clear out. he may have had 9 in one day but over 3 doses and it was only that intense for 3 days. , 8 at once is a lot of liquid . It's something like 32 ml per sachet.

Kyrptonite Mon 11-Nov-13 18:39:54

Hmm I'm wondering if I could give 8 single doses. Surely it would have the same effect?

Kyrptonite Fri 15-Nov-13 08:43:48

It's DS's last day at that school today. He starts at a more local one a week Monday and next week he is off to take the movicol.

Thank you everyone for the advice on this thread.

YouTheCat Fri 15-Nov-13 09:08:55

That was quick with the new school. Hope it's much better there and your ds gets sorted with the movicol.

ItsOkayItsJustMyBreath Fri 15-Nov-13 10:08:45

Kryptonite I am fuming on your behalf. Your poor DS deserves far better treatment from his school.

FWIW, my DS has been on Lactulose, Senna, Movicol and now sodium picosulphate since he was about 10 months. Different diagnosis but I've had to do the impaction regime quite a few times. You can make up a big jug of movicol mixed with juice, keep it in the fridge, and give it to him throughout the day. DS won't drink it with just water and I can't say I blame him, it's foul!

He's only 2.9 now but after reading this I am dreading him going to school.

Good luck thanks

Kyrptonite Fri 15-Nov-13 10:16:37

Tbf to the school they did say they would try and get him support but it could take a term or 2 to do so. DS is already hating school. One or two terms with no support could possibly lead to huge issues getting him to go into school in the future.

The head went on about his behaviour. I asked to see his IEP. He doesn't have one as it's not as simple as filling out a form yes it fucking is. I work in childcare and have done this and for her to assess him as SENCO she would need to discuss him at an annual meeting with a panel confused

It just all sounded like crap. They looked panicked when I explained how long DS might have to be on medication. They then moaned that his consultant hadn't prepared the letter explaining the condition yet.

I don't even know 100% that this new school will be for the best. I feel so guilty for uprooting him but I can't let him stay in that environment.

YouTheCat Fri 15-Nov-13 10:24:03

He's not settled where he is anyway so I would hope the next school will be better.

The whole 'needing to discuss him at an annual meeting' thing for your ds to have an IEP is absolute bollocks.

reup Fri 15-Nov-13 19:36:17

Good luck in the new school

clam Fri 15-Nov-13 19:44:03

Annual meeting? Wtf?

LaGuardia Fri 15-Nov-13 20:47:55

I am so confused. If he is holding his poo until he gets home then he is capable of not having an 'accident' and actually making it to the toilet at school. TAs and teachers are not nurses and should not be expected to clear up poo. That is not what they signed up for. The child needs pull ups. End of.

Kyrptonite Fri 15-Nov-13 20:50:38

The school are shit. I'm irrationally pissed off. We only kept DS there this week as we thought the school might do something for children in need and it would be nice for him to take part. They did fuck all.
DS spent an hour last night drawing thank you cards for his teacher and TA. He wrote out 'to mrs x thank you love DS' trying so hard to form him letters the way they showed him. We took in a tub of sweets to say thank you.

He got a card from his TA thanking him for his lovely card and wishing him good luck. His teacher didn't even say thank you for the sweets and the head did some sickly sweet smile as he left as though she had actually helped him with his problems and I was just being an arse taking him out of an outstanding school.

I'm aware this is irrational. I'm just a bit nervous about the new school and the week he has at home next week on a load of laxatives!

Kyrptonite Fri 15-Nov-13 20:52:40

If it's solid poo he can be capable of not having accidents. If it's loose droppings leaking out around the impaction he can't help it. He had been withholding both poo and wee until be got home as he was scared of being told off which made the situation worse.

Pull ups cause him to regress and he will just go in them without trying the toilet.

Kyrptonite Fri 15-Nov-13 20:53:43

And if you work in an early years setting which reception is then its a given that at some point you might have to clean up an accident.

Spiritedwolf Sat 16-Nov-13 10:38:59

Delurking to wish you and DS luck with the medication and the new school.

I find it appalling that there isn't more understanding of the needs of small children and particuarly ones with health issues. Not to mention this school dragging their feet over providing any support.

The silver lining is that this issue been so badly dealt with that it has highlighted how inadequate that school is at caring for its pupils very quickly so that you and your son can move on. If DS hadn't had these health problems then you might have had a low level dissatisfaction caused by their lack of care with the school for years but with no issue seeming bad enough to move schools.

Makes a nonsense of trying to make children start school at 2 years, doesn't it? when they can't even look after the personal care needs of 4 and 5 year olds.

Kyrptonite Sat 16-Nov-13 11:56:43

I know. Schools accept these children at such a young age and can't get their heads around the fact that accidents sometimes happen more so if there is a medical issue.

Oh well. Onwards and upwards to the new school. Just a week of hardcore amounts of laxatives to get throughhmm

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