To think hitting someone else's child....(168 Posts)
is NOT ok?
Acquaintance of mine is today boasting online that she hit a 5-year-old last night because of his bad manners while ToTing. Yes, the little angel needed to be told it is not okay to barge through everyone else and knock a smaller child over in the process, but hitting? She was pulled up on it but her attitude is her house, her rules and a slap on the hand is appropriate.
This isn't the first time she's boasted about hitting stranger's children. She did it at a restaurant once too because the toddler was pulling on her hair...fair enough, something needed to be said...but instead she turned around and slapped the child on the hand.
Am I just being precious in thinking this is the completely wrong way to handle either situation?
I imagine the police will be knocking on her door later.
She's lucky she hasn't yet had a thump in return!
Well, if it was an adult it would be assault. Surely the same applies for a child who is not her own.
I don't hit my own child so I would be furious if anyone else hit my child - and I would not just sit back and shrug my shoulders. She would be told and would face the repercusions of her choice too.
depends on the country she's in and the culture really. some are quite relaxed about slapping children and in itgers she would be braking the law.
I think it's actually nastier to boast about slapping a child than to do it really.
I would have had the police out to her if that had been my child. I don't hit my children, why the fuck should a stranger do it.
I'm with listing.
My sister slapped my ds on the hand and she got an eating from me. If he needs disciplined I do it. He is only 13 months.
Where was the 5 year olds parent?
Hitting a child is one of the most disgusting things an adult can do.
slapping a childs hand is NOT hitting them..
Had she turned round and slapped my toddler in a restaurant she'd certainly get more than she bargained for. She sounds like a nasty idiotic piece of work. Does she go around assaulting adults too?
If I had a child, and someone dared lay a hand on them they'd regret that action.
Wrong on all levels.
What is it, then, squeaky?
If I slap your face, would that not be hitting?
Apparently some people think it is acceptable to smack children, whether one's own or not - I do not. When my mother was 90, she was as vulnerable as a child, I can imagine the reaction if I had smacked her for 'misbehaving'.
could be a spur of the moment thing....
I shoved a toddler hand with a pencil poking at my eyes out of the way and got accused of "slapping" by the parent - erm no - I pushed it - sharpish - due to fear of imminent eyeball impalement .... but there was no intention to "slap".....
though her boasting about it suggests intent I guess....
of course slapping a child's hand is hitting. I think it is wrong to do to your own child, doing it to someone else's child is awful.
It may not be ideal to do this but it would not be considered assault and the police would not be interested.
Definitely NOT ok. I don't hit my children on the hand or anywhere else and would be livid if anybody else saw fit to do so.
It would be considered assault, littlewhite. Only parents are allowed to chastise their children physically in the uk.
I know what the law is but honestly the police would not be interested in a smack to the hand unless it was so hard that the child was injured. However the person who did this was completely in the wrong and should not have done it.
it is still worth going to the police. It should be logged and would then hopefully show up in a crb, preventing the person from working with vulnerable people
The police would need to be called to me if anyone git my child!
It would bring out my primitive side I'm afraid!
Not ok at all.
I don't smack my kids, theres no way on Earth anyone would get away with smacking them either!
The police would need to be called to me if anyone git my child! It would bring out my primitive side I'm afraid!
I was going to say this. I'm afraid I'd lash out.
Love your username btw, last episode has made me nervous!
This happened to me OP, my DS was in MIL's care, I wasn't there, apparently he was being rought with DNiece, which fair enough tell him off, move him but BIL tapped him on his hand, my son was so incensed he walloped him back and then BIL tapped him again.
I was livid. as far as I am concerned MIL is guilty too, as she condoned the behaviour and my ds was in her care.
I slapped my chid's hand when he ran away from me across a road. It was more a little tap - he is 22 months old. It was to reinforce that doing what he did was wrong and dangerous. Words have little/no effect on toddlers and a slap has more impact. The act of running away across a road is something that needs to be rectified as soon as possible. A stern; "Don't ever do that again. It's dangerous. You could have been knocked over" or something similar would fly over the head of my toddler and probably most.
But a slap/smack whatever you call it for barging through people and knocking a small child over is not really worthy of a slap. It was stupid but not dangerous to the extent of putting a child's life at risk.
My DS was knocked over last night by an older child at a halloween party. I let it go. He's smaller than most kds there and I expected him to be knocked over at some point. My child wasn't phased by it.
The boasting is quite disturbing.
My BIL when confronted, quite arrogantly dictated that if my DS misbehaves he gets a slap and it's 'as simple as that '
the response was worse than the action in my eyes ,
strump it was a Halloween name change (for which I was a joint runner up I might add)
I must remember to change back now.
Glad it's not just me but I really wouldn't be responsible for my actions if anyone hit my child.
I was chatting, last night, about CP to a friend who runs a nursery.
Did you know that if your DC is at nursery and tells the staff there that you hit (slap, smack, whatever) them, they have to keep a record of it, in case there are further concerns in the future?
strump it was a Halloween name change (for which I was a joint runner up I might add)
Yay well done!
"slapping a child's hand is not hitting them"
Yes it is.
& technicallly it is assault. Simple as that.
junkfoodaddict I am really interested to know your reasoning behind causing your child pain in order to teach him not to run across the road. You do realise that he just thinks you hit and hurt him for running don't you? Babies respond hugely to parents facial emotions and moods. You'd have got much further with him by showing him how frightened and upset you were combined with telling him and showing him what he did.
Oh and those of you who think its ok to hit your kids, every time you do, you increase their fear of you and decrease your bond with them. No one likes or trusts people who hurt them, parent or not. The person they love the most has hurt them. And whether they are old enough to understand why you did it or not and at 22 months they are NOT, they will still feel angry and helpless and that is not how kids should feel if you want them to develop healthily mentally.
As for your friend OP, I would tell her exactly what I thought of her bullying behaviour right there on line for everyone to read.
YANBU OP. It's a parent's job to discipline their child, nobody else's. I certainly wouldn't react well if I found out someone had hit my child, let alone if I saw it.
My mother rarely sees my dc because she won't stop smacking them...that and more!
One boxing day about 4 years ago, Ds (who has ASD & ADHD) came with me to pick my mum up. My mum had slapped ds whilst in the car on the way back to my house after only being in the car for about 15/20 min to teach him manners... She still insists the majority of ds problems are because I DON'T smack him...
My youngest ds5 is visually impaired & being assessed for ASD. In the summer my lovely sister took ds with her dc to visit my mum. My mum hadn't seen ds since last Christmas. My mil was dying of cancer & my dc were devastated, to say the very least. My mum slapped ds for play fighting with my nephew who's also 5. When my sister asked my mum what she was thinking of, my mum replied...'He's a f***ing little bully who needs to be taught a lesson'.
My sister was really upset.
My dc have nick named my mum the 'slapping nanny'.
Their grandmother who died 7 weeks ago, they call her 'smiling nanny'. Think that sums it up from the dc perspective.
My mother is disgusting & will never change- so we just don't see her!
Sorry fot that long post...ds with asd was 3 when my mum hit him on the boxing day.
I don't think it is ever okay to hit a child, particularly not someone else's.
However, this: Oh and those of you who think its ok to hit your kids, every time you do, you increase their fear of you and decrease your bond with them. No one likes or trusts people who hurt them, parent or not. is rather OTT/emotional. I was smacked for bad behaviour up until the age of about 7ish I think. I remember it but I didn't and don't feel any fear or mistrust towards my parents for it, I just saw it as my punishment. I imagine the majority of people who were children before the mid to late 90s would have the same experience. Physical abuse would have the effects you describe but the occasional smack for bad behaviour is not physical abuse, it's just not great parenting.
manic I think it really depends on the child's personality. I was only smacked (lightly) on less than a handful of occasions and I certainly remember scared, hurt and confused. luckily my mum apologised and our relationship recovered.
So was it a 'slap on the hand' or full on 'hitting'?
a slap on the hand is hitting.
I can't stand it when people say it was a slight slap or the often used "tap" on the hand. If that's all it is, why bother? What's the point? Why not a stroke or a gentle squeeze to get attention? Why slap/tap at all?
FlapJack - I don't think it's relevant personally (though she has used 3 different words to describe her hitting incident so far....including slapped) (I'm the OP BTW, just namechanged back to my old name and CBA to change just for this thread)
I've got no problem with disciplining someone's child if they are not paying attention and the child is causing damage to something or someone...but hitting/slapping/tapping - whatever name you want to give it - is a step too far. At least I think so.
I'm shocked at this woman, especially as she's boasting (and it is boasting, there's a lot of prideful my-kids-are-perfect-because-I-taught-them-manners talk going on, and saying that the 5 year old got what he deserved) on a social networking site...and she's a children's photographer....
She sounds like a complete idiot, and will engineer her own justice, then!
Very well said Sparklysilversequins!
I am surprised so many people would even consider justifying inflicting pain on a child ( with the obvious exception of necessary medical procedures).
A cursory glance at peer reviewed articles concerning corporal punishment should be enough to convince anyone never to hit a child.
I have noticed that some people ( that's you DM) are bursting at the seams to dole out a bit of physical chastisement. It is a very strongly held belief with some individuals that children need smacking. And then they go all out to find/name behaviours that require it. Among the favourites seem to be "running into th road" (great. Why not just stop them) "hitting" (oh, the irony) and the tried and trusted "touching a fire/ cooker/ live electrics"
YANBU. It's not appropriate. And as others have said, technically a common assault I believe.
Oh and yy to sparkly what's with the tapping?
So, to those that tap/smack/hit (synonyms - stop trying to downgrade it with 'softer' words) - how do you teach your child not to smack?
She will hit the wrong persons child.Its just a matter of when.I wouldnt trust her with my dc.Mything aunt is like this she thinks she can slap kids that arent even related to her.I told her she ever slaps my kids it would be the last thing she would do.
I agree theghost. It's almost like its one of the enjoyable parts of being a parent. Getting to dish out a few slaps, because that's part of it isn't it? As much as feeding them milk and dressing in cute little outfits. Certainly both sets of grandparents of my dc were just itching to get started on mine .
And another thing, quite a few of those who say "never did me any harm" well it did actually because YOU'VE grown up wanting to use your big, strong grown up hands to hurt your children in the same way you were hurt in the name of "discipline". Having the idea that you should hurt other people to punish them and a sense that its normal to be that way shows you have been harmed.
When mine were toddlers (up to 2.6 yo ish) I would use the odd smack on the hand to reinforce my words. It really wasn't necessary as they got older as they were able to listen to my explanations and in exceptional circumstances time out or removal of toy(s) was used.
My dcs have never hit any other children and are not scared of me but they know when they have crossed a line by my tone of voice.
Even though I do not agree that smacking a child's hand is the worst thing you can do I would never hit another persons child, ever.
A question for those who tap / slap / hit children: When you are elderly with limited brain function caused by age rather than youth, is it okay for your children or maybe care home workers to give you a tap / slap / hit to better get their message across? If not, why not?
When you are elderly with limited brain function caused by age rather than youth, is it okay for your children or maybe care home workers to give you a tap / slap / hit to better get their message across? If not, why not?
Whilst I don't condone hitting children, and I don't condemn it either, I think this is different. You wouldn't put an elderly person in the naughty corner would you?
Stumperton - how is it different? And people do put elderly people in the naughty corner...it just often doesn't look like the naughty corner...
Well for one, an elderly person is not going to learn from it, if they have a degenerative disease (limited brain function suggests this) they are just going to be scared and not understand why it is happening.
Also, they do not need to be disciplined and nor is it our place to discipline them. (I speak as an ex healthcare assistant)
If a parent decides to discipline their child that way - and I'm not saying I would chose this way myself by the way - I would expect the child would be old enough to understand the discipline, and that it would be explained to them why it is happening.
And no I've never put an elderly person in any sort of version of the naughty corner, or used any other method for disciplining them for that matter.
~YANBU OP, you should never do that unless the parent has given you permission and you both agree with the discipline.
Boasting like that, I suspect it's less about the smacking and more about the whole 'I am a superior person and disciplinarian, children obey me'. She chooses to smack but people with that attitude don't tend to stop, they tend to keep pushing their belief and choice of discipline on others children in order to show how great they are.
I know someone who disciplines others children, she doesn't boast about it but she does threaten. She pinches, she tells me it's a culture thing and all her friends do the same so they can all use that on each others kids. Sometimes she forgets when out of her circle of friends who do agree with/to that though and she's been known to get looks from other people.
sparklysilversequins that is YOUR opinion. Your claim of; You do realise that he just thinks you hit and hurt him for running don't you? is making a presumption of what MY child is thinking - rather big headed of you isn't it, making out that YOUR opinion is right and everyone else is wrong?
Also, Oh and those of you who think its ok to hit your kids, every time you do, you increase their fear of you and decrease your bond with them. No one likes or trusts people who hurt them, parent or not. The person they love the most has hurt them. And whether they are old enough to understand why you did it or not and at 22 months they are NOT, they will still feel angry and helpless and that is not how kids should feel if you want them to develop healthily mentally. is a very general assumption that everyone slapped/hit/tapped/smacked as a child will grown up with mental health problems. That must mean there are millions of people walking the streets that are a few screws loose when it comes to mental health capacity/functions.
I was slapped as a child. I do not feel angry and helpess - never did do and I do not have mental health problems.
We all have different parenting styles and it's okay to have an opinion but not okay to make presumptions that those who have been physically disciplined are walking around with mental health problems!!!!!
Well it's not just MY opinion. I am in the third year of a degree in child psychology and development and there's plenty who also hold that "opinion".
But if its more important to you to hurt your child because YOU are angry and frightened then I guess you'll just keep going and nothing I can say here will make a difference.
And by the way, a tap/slap/smack are all synomyms of the same sort just as cold/freezing/bitter are used to describe the feeling of being cold but with different degrees of intensity. A tap is far less intense than a slap or a smack.
This is quite a good summary with less technical jargon than many other articles I found overview
So you are one of those who uses your degree as a argumentative tool and thinks that a few years study makes you (and the rest of them) believe how the world works, thinks and behaves?
I use my life skills to make my judgements. Not a research paper.
So why do it then? What's the point of a "tap"? Why not a stroke or gentle squeeze of the hand with no pain involved? You say that you gave your less than two year old child "more than a tap" because he ran out in the road. Why haven't you answered when I asked you your reasoning behind doing it?
No not at all. But you said it was just my opinion and it isn't.
Your life skills tell you to hurt your child when there are far more effective ways of dealing with the incident you describe? You seem angry at what I have said and clearly have no interest in learning alternative methods. I cannot begin to comprehend someone who hits their child hard after they've just nearly had a serious accident.
As a psychology STUDENT you are probably well rehearsed in the tool of emotive language and how what you can say, how you type it can try to make someone change their mind, opinion and make them angry, upset or whatever emotion it is that you want to evoke.
One thing you are absolutely right about is what you said; nothing you will say will make me change my mind. I will continue to 'tap' my child's hand when I see fit for misdemeanours that require immediate action.
I was smacked as a child, as were my three younger siblings.
I don't fear my parents (didn't as a child, either) and have an extremely strong bond with my parents now. I like and trust my parents. I had every faith in them as a child and knew they loved me unconditionally. I wasn't beaten or abused. I know people who were and who had very bad family dynamics - funnily enough THEY were the ones who grew up to be drug-addicts/alcoholics/etc. Me and my siblings? All doing well, thanks, three of us with dc of our own, all happy and healthy.
While I appreciate what you're saying Sparkly I think it's a bit rude of you to tell other people how their relationships with their parents are now based on what you've been studying.
Apologies. I missed the comment regarding you asking my reasoning behind doing it. Do you want my reasons for research purposes or as an intrigued mother?
And I will continue to think that you must not be very bright and wish to remain closed off to methods of dealing with your child that do not involve inflicting pain on him.
Genuine question, anecdotes aside, is there any research that suggests children who were 'tapped' or hit in a controlled manner have been adversely affected?
I'd be really interested to read it. I got smacked as a kid, very rarely because I was good in the most part, it's not scarred me for life.
Would your relationship with your DH/DP be affected if he used physical pain to keep you in line or if you did something dangerous because you didn't have the education or experience not to do it? Is that ok? If not, why not?
Yet you expect your child's relationship with you to remain unaffected when you hurt him and he doesn't understand why?
You may think that it doesn't make any difference but it does, even if only by what you perceive as tiny, inconsequential increments.
I don't want to hurt little children and I don't understand anyone who does.
Please, I am intrigued as to the definition of bright. As a bright person (you obviously deem yourself to be to imply that I am not) you should be able to enlighten me on this rather intriguing word?
Just to add, I also use other 'disciplinary' methods other than 'tapping'. But you must think I am some sort of monster from a horror movie that is every child's worst nightmare with mental health problems because I, like many others, were smacked/tapped/slapped, however you like to call it, as children and that my child too is going to grow up with mental health problems also.
I will read your reply tomorrow. I'm off to bed. Enjoy your cuppa
This word 'tapped' is ridiculous. People use it because they don't want to say 'hit' as they think that sounds bad, which is so hypocritical. 'I don't hit my child, I just tap them'.
Hitting is hitting - if you're going to do it then at least have the guts to stand up and say what it is that you do. If you feel wrong about saying that you hit your child then think about why that makes you uncomfortable.
Secondly, if anyone assaulted my child I would call the police. I personally know of a case where charges have been pressed because an adult hit someone else's child on the bum (one hit). It can be done and should be done. Nobody gets to use physical violence against my children just because they are bigger than them.
Or they use it to mean what it is. Chilly and freezing are both words on the cold spectrum, but mean rather different things. Tapped and Walloped both imply contact, but with rather different degrees of force involved.
This is not an argument for or against smacking, but it is absurd to say using the word tapped is ridiculous.
Don't be ridiculous. Now who's being emotive?
Glad to hear you use other methods, are they effective? If so why not just use them?
You are not responding to any of the questions I ask, just defending your position and your wish to hurt your child when he does something "wrong", so it's all a bit pointless isn't it?
No coffee for me thanks, will keep me up all night .
I'm not defending anything as I've got my arse parked on the fence, but tapped is different!
YDNBU! I believe you can instill respect and love from your child towards you without making them
shitscared fearful of you. Playfighting is perfectly allowed (within reason) but if anyone hit my kid for me I'd have happily knocked her out put her in her place.
Strumpetron- click on the link in Sparkly's post (22:40).
Thankyou dyslexic I missed that I'll give it a read!
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
I think anyone who hit my child would severely regret it
BUT dd is now 12 and i think has had 7 smacks in her life all when she was much younger and I or OH either did it for toddler running in road or followed through on the threat they were always after nothing else worked and my daughter is not scared of either of us and quite rightly.
I know if either of us tried to smack her bottom now she would hit back She doesn't she even remember the last time she was hit as all got after the age of 6 when we used to threaten was a triumphant you would never hit me and she's right as we wouldnt dream of as we could reason wth her. She has never met one of my sisters for the main fact she hits her 4 kids and said that her house her rules and would hit DD is she felt she needed a slap!
Jesus if a stranger slapped my child I would go ape
I actually would end up being arrested because I know 100% that I would lamp her
My guess: Trick or Treating (oh how I HATE the abbreviations on here).
Abuse perpetuates sadly.
If you were smacked as a child, it's likely you will smack your own kids.
It takes a strong person to break that cycle.
Be that person.
On a few (3-5) occasions over the years I've smacked/'tapped' my kids. I've regretted EVERY single one of those times.
Each time has been about me losing control and I think hitting a child is a shitty thing to do (and totally counterproductive) but as a human under stress I've made mistakes I've learned from them.
If someone smacked my children I'd be fucking livid.
Ooh, a smacking thread.
I love a good smacking thread.
OP the woman sounds like a fuckwit. Hitting a 5 year old anyway, but then boasting about it on FB - farkin' ada.
Even if you think it's great, surely you know that some people in your acquaintance on FB are going to think you're a nob for having done that, so you'd resist the temptation to boast about it?
i find it more worrying that she is boasting about it
i do not agreeing with smacking children at all,little tap, smack or whatever you want to call it but i do not think the odd little slap on the hand will harm a child. but she seems to enjoy enforcing her rules on other peoples children this is more of a concern than the slap
I was hoping there might be unanimity that smacking is wrong. Full stop. But at least we all seem to agree smacking some one else's child is wrong.
When I interviewed my first nanny I told her smacking would not be tolerated. She looked at me in astonishment that I'd even felt the need to mention it since as far as she was concerned it was obvious.
It's always seemed a bit of a flaw in the argument that occasionally smacking is necessary and acceptable. Of the 3 nannies I employed 2 were in their early twenties and college trained, the other one wasn't formally trained but had loads of experience. None of them smacked. Professional carers don't, if they don't need to why do parents?
Surely professional carers won't because they can hardly go around smacking their client's children can they?
I hope I never feel the need or inclined to smack my child. I hope my words and methods are enough. I was never ever damaged as a result of my mum's smacking, but still.
Well of course professional carers can't smack.
My point is if professional carers can deal with issues without smacking, why can't parents?
Maybe because professional carers tend to have training, a lot of parents particularly first time parents may not know how to deal with their children's behaviour effectively in a different way, or can use it as a method to further instil other methods.
Also children react differently to people they aren't as accustomed to, can be more likely to be well behaved with someone in a formal position of authority.
I'm not saying thats why, just some suggestions! Devils advocate if you will. It's a topic I'm genuinely interested in
I think people smack because they lose their temper and lash out and then use the excuse that it was some sort of thought it planned form of punishment.
I was smacked a few times as a child, never affected me greatly. I love my parents to bits. But I'd never plan to use smacking as a form of punishment because I think it's pointless and there are much better techniques to use.
I slapped my chid's hand when he ran away from me across a road. It was more a little tap - he is 22 months old. It was to reinforce that doing what he did was wrong and dangerous
No, what you did was wrong and dangerous. You did not hold your child's hand tightly enough, or have him on reins or whatever - so it was your fault. At 22 months he's a baby - it's your responsibility to keep him safe.
How could you possibly believe that your toddler was to blame??
Sparkly silver sequins your posts say exactly what I want to articulate.
I am quite cheered by so many posters being so vehemently anti smoking.
I hope soon that hitting children is banned to stop this ridiculous 'smacking' grey area.
Violence against children is wrong.
I think some ppl smack when they're scared too. I can understand that feeling. Luckily I haven't ever hit my DCs and I don't condone it as a method of discipline but I can understand the fear and upset if your child runs onward the road or you lose sight of them n public. Children will test your nerve more than you thought possible.
I think that, whilst not a good thing, that's a bit different from voicing a belief that children should be smacked to learn about behaviour IYSWIM.
In the countries where smacking is banned, child death and injury by parental abuse is incredibly low.
Which is why "smacking never did me any harm" is bollocks. It didn't do you any harm, but it killed other children.
When I was 16, I was struck a blow to the head so hard I had concussion. Not a one off either: I'm lucky to be here.
I think smacking does harm the relationship between children and parents. My mother went in for it, and it was generally an expression of anger or frustration on her part rather than trying to keep us out of danger. It hasn't alienated us, but the relation that my brothers and I have with her has always been a bit tense. My father got the responsibility for firmer discipline, and I still hold it against him that I was spanked for cutting my hair: I had no idea it was wrong so it wasn't a matter of deliberate defiance on my part. No matter how good the relationship otherwise, you never forget that the people who are closest to you hit you.
We hardly ever got smacked but I remember the threat of a wooden spoon over the knuckles if I was really naughty. Never happened though. Mum said that only once did she smack me a supermarket purely to snap me out of a hysterical tantrum when nothing else would work. It did work but she said she was mortified both by having to smack and by my behaviour!
I imagine that the vast majority of us grew up with some form of smacking or mild physical punishment shic
Gaah phone! Physical punishment which I can't compare or remotely call abuse. And I'm pretty ok for it.
I find it interesting here in the Netherlands children are just not disciplined the same (i.e. get away with murder). I visited a British school here recently where parents send their children expressly for the discipline they will get as in taught manners and respect! Dutch children have a very hard time assimilating apparently as it is such a cultural difference. The adults are fine ofc but it is a very differing view of what is respectful communication for children.
So maybe the UK is doing something right.
Actually I would extend that to other countries. Parents want their children to receive a British education not just for the education but for the manners. But some find the change quite a challenge. Are we strict as a nation? Sorry thsts a bit off topic.
Btw YANBU no one should lay hands on your child. Certain countries still allow caning in school I heard as well. I couldn't believe it.
Interesting to see all the comments of "A smack/tap/wallop" never harmed me but I choose not to do it to my child(ren)".
livingzuid- I don't want to derail this thread but I thought this was interesting in regards to the in comments about the Netherlands.
While I agree that the UK does do many things right, based on all the reports I have ever seen concerning child physical and mental well being, child rearing is not one of them.
Note that corporal punishment is not allowed in the countries where children are the best off.
A child was very rude to me at a party recently, shoving me and saying 'get out of the way' I told him not to be rude but I wouldn't dream of hitting
Thanks dyslexicdespot we are researching schools atm for dc. Discipline is a harsh word but important to both DH and me. Dutch children are definitely given more leeway and I don't approve of that with strangers. UK does better in schools but not so well at home perhaps?
I remember a kiwi friend describing once how not hitting dawned on her. She was about to give her son a smack for hitting his sister and mid way stopped and thought, here I am using violence to stop violence which makes no sense! Which it doesn't really.
If someone did that to my ds I'd probably slap them back and see if that was ok with them
The Netherlands head this report for overall child well being. I think THEY'RE the ones that seem to be getting it right and I think if I were living there and able to take advantage of their systems I'd be quite happy about that UNICEF child poverty report.
Sorry dyslexic missed your link that already said the same as mine .
Dyslexicdespot , no surprises in placings 1to 6 on that list. They will also have the lowest rates of teenage pregnancies and will continue to have the best outcomes throughout their lives.
What's the method with Dutch children and what don't you approve oflivingzuid
I'm not following I don't think.
I think, even.
Poor marks for comprehension and grammar for me today
I think it's quite simple really. When a person who is in a position of trust hits a child they teach that child that being subjected to violence is a normalised part of a relationship.
Is this really what you want we want teach our children?
I certainly do not want my DS to grow up thinking that violence can ever be a part of a healthy relationship.
As mentioned before, all you have to do is look at research that has been published on corporeal punishment, and keep in mind that personal experiences/anecdotes are not generlisable onto a wider population. Meaning that, while you might not have been damaged by this or that, it does not follow that the vast majority of people will not be.
Sorry, it should read: 'Is that really what we want to teach our children?'
Misspixietrix My have was tapped as a child, it hasn't affected me. I hope i never smack myself, I guess I can say I 200% don't want to but not having been lucky enough to get to the point where I have someone to discipline yet I suppose you can never say 100% that you won't. My sister used to, then she got freaked out when DN ran off and hid in a store, she smacked her bum because she was so scared and emotional on finding.
My reasons for not wanting to currently has nothing to do with thinking it's ineffective or like it- my choice about smacking or tapping was made up long long ago when I when I realised how much I loved spanking and some SM games. That choice was made long before the choice of wanting kids was. And given how much my DP and I enjoy spanking ourselves it just seems creepy to consider using it as discipline on a child. This is purely our issue though, because we play like that so much, it's not something i share generally so I have no idea if anyone else who plays like we do would find the same.
I have just never understood this move from fear to aggression. You think your child is lost and gone so you hit them on their return? Your child nearly gets run over so you hit them to show how worried you were?
I've been in these situation, what parent hasn't? But I've just been so happy and relieved to get them back in one piece that I have just hugged them and often cried and then told them how dangerous it was and how they must never do it again.
Someone said early that as a STUDENT I don't know about RL. My Mum hit me almost every day growing up, she lost her temper a lot and we all knew about it. I have two dc of my own who have ASD and I am a lone parent. I know plenty about RL. But I still can't relate feeling fear to hitting my child after a dangerous situation. What is it actually teaching them? Don't run away because I will hit you when you get back. Don't get into accidents because I will hit you if you do because you scared me.
And that's not even mentioning the times they've just done something that's a PITA but understandable because they're KIDS and so you hurt them to show them.
Because that's what it is, it's NOT discipline, however controlled it is. You are making the choice to hurt your child because you don't like what they did. In a way I can understand better a parent being pushed to their absolute limits by a child's bad behaviour, note not being in a dangerous situation and losing it, but this controlled "tapping"? You are making an informed decision to do this. Which is frankly odd in my opinion.
Sorry I derailed.
Sparkly have you any experience of things here? Or is your observation simply on the strength of a report from 2009? The grass is not always greener on the other side.
Jenger hmm how best to explain? There are of course huge cultural differences which is why we are not one big happy EU (or global) family! But before anyone gets the wrong idea let me just say the Dutch are the same as any other nation and on the whole very lovely. I do like it here. I'm just want my child to have the best of what we teach in the UK and the best from the Dutch culture. And I am not sure they will get that in a Dutch school so I am trying to figure out how to achieve that!
I will use the example of DH's upbringing. He is Dutch but second generation. His father is Dutch and his mum from England. So he received two completely different approaches. His mother was strict and tolerated no nonsense. His dad on the other hand would let him do or say anything. That's not his dad being lame but culturally the Dutch are very outspoken which is something that starts from birth. If a child wants something it will ask but to the point of rudeness and not 'please may i' but 'I want'. my DH was a bit extreme to the point where if he was in someone's house he wouldn't have anything for fear of my Mil lol but she found the opposite when his friends used to come over and demand things as soon as they got through the door. In school children address their teachers by 1st name, and the bluntness they learn when little carries on as an adult. Which can cause problems. One of the essential things I was taught was just because you think something does not mean you should say it. They don't have that here. It has led to huge rows between me and DH sometimes!
Also if I am in a restaurant or park or some public space children could come and play right next to me or run around being really very annoying (ok a park fair enough but a supermarket?) and no one bats an eyelid or calls them off. I have actually had a child swing from the back of my chair in a restaurant and the parent hasn't called them off! And when DH commented the parents started an argument! I don't quite know what to call it but it takes forthright to a new level. DH can't stand it says there is a real lack of respect that doesn't get taught. I think the word is precocious? A child is more likely to start an argument with you than think hmmmmm that person is an adult and I do need to be polite. Tbh I find the children here a bit spoilt.
I know children are badly behaved in the UK. I lived on a dodgy estate in London for five years and watched kids shoot fireworks at people and each other! But I think on the whole we work really hard to be polite and respectful and most people instil that in their kids. I just don't find that here.
Just as an aside, ask any expat about dutch customer service. They will probably start crying!
I'd be happy to have any of this refuted by some of the Dutch mums I know are on mums net. This is just my own experience. But it's a reason why many expat parents think hard about what kind of discipline they want their child to receive at school.
I lived in Germany for 10 years of my life and often visited friends in The Netherlands and they us.
Apologies sparkly you are referring to the UN report. But that alone still does not mean things are great. There is huge bias and racism in the systems here too. I am not going to detail any more so shall leave it there.
Derail even.. Germany is completely different to the Netherlands however and visiting a country is not the same as being in it. I shall stop there however.
Sparklysilversequins I couldn't tell you personally of the leap from fear to aggression (if your post was in reply to my sister's case of smacking) and I can't tell you what she felt or looked like there and then because I wasn't there but she always said it was an angry reaction in her case. My DN had been hiding on purpose and thought it funny to make my sister distraught, my sister never smacked as a discipline method but this time she lashed out and smacked.
I do think fear and a sudden reaction like that can go hand in hand though, I've seen people slap or shake those (adults) who have really freaked them out or overwrought them. I don't know why it happens, it hasn't happened to me so I can't explain how or why, but I've seen adults do it to other adults so maybe it's a topic for discussion unrelated to physical discipline with children.
Your mum sounds abusive btw, hitting you almost every day just because she lost her temper.
I think tapping and smacking will always be a controversial subject for obvious reasons, I think sometimes different cultures have different attitude- in my first comment, I mentioned my friend who pinches which i found really bullying and unpleasant but it's a norm among those who she grew up with and some of her friends.
I don't mean to undermine your point of view, you live there I don't . I am surprised and quite sad to hear about the racism element though as I knew a few cross cultural relationships between people living there and it always seemed to be a given that they experienced more acceptance there than anywhere else they had lived.
Obviously I realise Germany is an entirely different country I was giving context to my experiences.
Yes, she was abusive alright Mia. I think she kind realises now but at the time she was very much in the "it's discipline" camp. And I don't think she really takes it on board because there was a lot of talk about "lack of discipline" regarding my dc when they were smaller.
Sparkly you are right and apologies if I came across prickly it wasn't intended that way
Dutch liberalism is skin deep. Scratch the surface and it's a different story. And sadly it's becoming even more conservative.
But still smacking and hitting are illegal for anyone Inc parents here! On the plus side I have never seen anyone lay a finger on their child. It's just not done.
Sparklysilversequins I'm sorry you went through that and that your mother won't accept responsibility for her actions. If she's of that mindsent it makes sense that she'll never see any other method of discipline but her own as 'the one'. Which must be frustrating for you.
spraklysilver sequins you might be interested to hear of the debate in the UK educational psychology mailing list a few years ago. There was a proposal to do a press release condemning smacking as form of discipline. The press release was never made because someone eventually said that his professional opinion was that the occasional smack on the bum or hand was not damaging in the long term in an otherwisehealthy parenting relationship. His view was that smacking under those circs (Ie rarely, not hard enough to mark) isn't the worst thing a parent can do, and his fear was that some parents who would not smack were turning to verbal aggression instead. And actually if you child scares you by running into the road (or whatever, but this seems a popular trigger) then yelling a stream of abuse into its face might be just as damaging if not more damaging than a short swift bumsmack.
I have occasionally smacked my children's bottoms (I have 4 children; probably well less than 10 occasions between all of them over the years) and whilst these were not my proudest parenting moments my children are very well bonded to me and completely secure in my love for them. I have never and will never label them verbally in a negative way - I have never told them they little shits or idiots or little sods or said 'you stupid little bastard' or anything like that. I have labelled their behaviour at times 'you are behaving like a bully. Stop it RIGHT NOW' but never labelled them. I honestly think calling a child a shit or a bastard is more damaging long term than a slapped bum given very very occasionally. Obviously I wouldn't advocate for either as a daily parenting strategy!
I think I've seen that. It's also mentioned in a link I posted earlier that various psychologists argued the same and so spanking in schools wasn't made illegal. However others argue that it IS harmful. There are many different sides and I suppose an individual must take the one that confirms their particular parenting ethos and whether or not they wish to hurt their children and feel ok about it.
Just to clarify that link I posted earlier is US based.
I think the point is; there are more ways to hurt a child than physically, and physical chastisement used occasionally in an otherwise healthy praenting relationship is no worse (and possibly rather better than) verbal abuse used in the same context. Not advocating for physical punishment, but it somehow has a 'line in the sand' quality than verbal abuse doesn't. Its ironic to hear a parent screaming at their child 'Don't ever do that again you fucking little shitbag' whilst proudly proclaiming 'but of course I never hit him'.
Btw smacking and all corporal punishment are illegal in UK state schools.
"I have just never understood this move from fear to aggression"
That's understandable sparkly as you say, you're only a couple of years into a psychology degree. There's a lot of life experience and further studying that helps us develop our understanding along the way.
It's complicated. But basically, it's like a delayed act of control and rage. feeling out of control (or that your children are out of your control) is frightening.sometimes smacking gives a feeling of control. Especially if that's how you were sisciplined by your own parents.
Personally, although i am probably in what feels like a perpetual stage of parental anxiety and having been raised in the 70s, when smacking was jolly popular, I share your view. I don't believeit's helpful or healthy and I don't smack. I don't want to, I don't even feel like it.
Buti can understand How people feel like that.
junkfoodaddict I'm sorry but your reasoning for smacking your child as it has more impact is unfounded and contradicted by oodles of psychological research.
The fact is if your child had run across the road and been hit by a car (heaven forbid) he probably at that age would still struggle to understand the cause and effect. It would be a 'naughty car' doing something bad up him and not pain as a consequence of his actions.
So smacking his hand once he's in a safe place is nonsensical. Mummy smacked me, naughty mummy is how the toddlers mind works I'm afraid. Research shows that they remember the smack but not the reason for it. So while you feel a stern talking to would go over his head, I'm afraid so too would the punishment of smacking.
More sensible would be the punishment of reinstating reins or a wrist strap for a few days and discussing the reasons why as you walked along the road.
Each to their own but I wouldn't lay a hand on my child and wouldn't stand anyone else doing either! Isn't it illegal anyway?
I don't believe that ppl either smack or swear at their DCs.
There's usually an overlap ime.
I don't see why the choice is verbal abuse or a smack?!!
Doesn't that sound horrid to anyone else?
Oh. Littlelife sell adorable backpacks with integral reins. I found mine invaluable for DS.
amanda as I pointed out in a previous post I have two dc with SN and am a lone parent. I am also in my forties if that's relevant . I also experienced a pretty abusive childhood. I am a mature student. I feel that have plenty of relevant life experience that allows me to have an informed opinion on this subject.
I never meant to say either use physical abuse or verbal abuse. What I was trying to say is that at times it seems like the message is 'you must never hit your children' and there was concern in psychological circles that if a press release went out saying 'we believe physical punishment of a child is always wrong' some people might erroneously think that as long as they don't hit their kid, they are doing no harm. Whereas obviously verbal abuse of children is just as wrong but doesn't tend to get the press coverage or the universal parenting disapproval or the 'well I would never do that' response that physical abuse tends to. And it should. Neither is helpful, neither us good parenting, and both should be discouraged, rather than focusing on why we shouldn't hit and not teaching parents why we also shouldn't call our kids terrible things.
Neither is good parenting. Sorry
sparkling I didn't mean to squash your opinion. I agree with most of what you have said tbh and that you have said it very well.
I was merely seeking to shed some light on the part you said you couldn't understand.
The thing is. Experience is interesting. We have experienced childhood but only our own and those of us who are parents have only experienced our own parenting.
So whilst personal experience is valuable and is what forms most of our opinions, it is also limited to our individual lives.
Definitely not OK. My understanding is also that it's always against the law to hit/slap whatever someone else's child. Plus it's just not on because it's not their parent's choice.
The boasting is pretty worrying too.
I would not be seeing the person again if they did that to my child.
I would tell someone else's child off if they were misbehaving, especially if rough to another child, but this would just be a case of telling them firmly (at a normal volume, not shouting).
If you hit a child for hitting or otherwise being violent this seems to me the silliest thing you can do because surely you are showing them that hitting IS ok. Also, every child I have met (just in my own experience) who is smacked turns very naughty as soon as their parents' backs are turned - i.e. not saying please and thank you any more once they know they aren't going to be smacked if they don't, whereas other children seem to do it out of common politeness - and in some cases I have noticed that they also tend to hit.
I was speaking about this on Thursday to a friend, who runs a nursery. I said that I chose not to smack, because, if smacking for a little thing became the default position, I was afraid of what I would do if I was absolutely bloody furious. (My parents gave me some scary examples of what that might be, as I was growing up.)
To me, smacking seems very counterproductive. My friend's take on it was that a smack is satisfying for the smacker.
Actually, what you say ties in with something she was saying, Mim. She said that one of the nursery staff had asked a little girl to say "sorry", and the child had refused. The child went on to say that her mother smacked her, if she didn't say sorry.
So, it appears that the mother's strategy wasn't successful, as her DD refused to apologise, without the threat of a smack. She wouldn't apologe because it was the right thing to do, only in a situation where she was afraid not to.
Our children learn manners, like saying sorry, please, thank you and.. Not hitting, by our examples.
If you always say please and thank you your DCs will do the same. There'sno mileage in nagging them about it.
My DS forgets to say thank you sometimes. He is just 3 yo. Last weekend a grown up who doesn't know him curtly brought him up on it. I felt like tapping him (the grown up) at the time.
I have to say that my personal experience is that smacking is harmful when delivered on a pretty regular basis, especially when coupled with labelling and abusive commentary, and especially when that smacking was threatened to be carried out in public being shoved over a parent's knee and being threatened with having your pants pulled down too but that's just my personal experience.
The odd smack, I'm not so sure that would have lasting effects.
I remember that threat well!
Yes I remember it too. Really odd if you ask me. Maximum humiliation threatened.
I can remember trying to shield my arese from being hit. It really stung. Physically and figuratively.
Did yours get angry if you tried to protect yourself?
Human instinct is to protect yourself from harm. Your most basic right to protect yourself has been taken away from you. Can you imagine the impact on a child's psyche to be told to not protect yourself when your parents who you depend on for everything and love completely, want to hurt you?
Well done for going your way with kids despite your terrible experience sparkly
A bit cross sparkly.
I wonder if it was from the stress that you get when your DC is sacred, just misdirected IYSWIM.
Thanks . I think it can go either way can't it? You either think it's fine and "never did me any harm", or can't imagine how they could have done it. I waited till I was older to have my dc as well and so had already got quite a lot of distance and insight into how dysfunctional it all was. There was a lot of muttering from them about no rules or discipline and how "naughty" he was when my ds was only a year old . I knew I couldn't have that so stamped on it hard. It still rears its head though and my dc are 10 and 7 now.
Sorry. What I mean is if you are dishing out physical punishment, (probably a manifestation of your anger and frustration) then your child tries to protect themselves, it slows it all down, you get to see their fear, it becomes apparent that you are hurting them, and I think that can make people more angry IYSWIM. The child is "making you" recognise their hurt and your "wrongdoing" and that makes a person feel guilty and frustrated. I think.
I think it was about control with my Mum.
And yes. I think it can go either way. You are obviously an insightful and thoughtful person. Your DCs are all the better for that.
I've had certain people who i'll keep nameless recommend I bite my baby (8 months at the time) to teach him a lesson when he bites me
I have heard that too 2tired (although no one's ever dared say it to me.) and I have also seen police action taken against a woman who bit her baby and left a mark.
I just don't get it, even if it wasn't assault It wouldn't teach then anything positive.
Biting babies? That IS indeed treating your child like the enemy before they're even old enough to know there own name. My little sister was a biter and my Mum used to bite her back, leaving big nasty teeth marks on her little arm .
Apparently everyone did this though. It was the seventies so I am not sure how true that is.
My 8 mo dd is a biter. She's teething.
I could no more sink my teeth into her beautiful skin (omg, just the thought of it makes me shudder) than eat a herd of elephants.
I didn't arrive until the 80's so im not sure on that one
It was not uncommon.
I know someone who's ds is now 20 and her health visitor advised biting him as a response to his toddler biting.
I think that was not best practice at the time tbh, but that was the 90s, so she was likely to just have been out of date.
Shocking though isn't it really?
Truly, God help the person who saw fit to hit (or any of the other 'nicer' euphemisms for the same act...) one of my children.
And to those who say it i: causes no damage; & ii: that when they do it ('it' being 'Common Assault Upon A Child if it is someone who is NOT the parent who dishes it out; or IS the parent if it is enough to leave a mark &/or another few quite specific impacts) 'it' is done mindfully; deliberately; etc etc; AND with full capacity.....
You are, bluntly, nuts. And pretty vile. And a pretty poor parent if you don't possess other parenting skills to discipline and guide your child.
And no, before anyone leaps in with the (so oft used excuse/'reason') "It did ME no harm" - then I would suggest you seriously DO look at the sheer MASS of peer reviewed research that says otherwise.... INCLUDING those surrounding those who HAVE been impacted by it; and it then playing itself out in many subtle and unconscious forms when they theselves become a parent... I.E. the PRECISE population of people who form the "It did me no harm..." brigade.
Very lastly, I DID hit my eldest child once when I was heavily pregnant with DC2 and I was under the most enormous of stresses (NONE of which were to do with him) and it would be total BS to say I did that as he "deserved it" or that I had done it "mindfully" and as a form of discipline. That would be PURE bollocks. As - quite simply - and no, I am NOT proud of this, but it IS the total truth) - that sole time I 'tapped'/'hit'/smacked' my 3 year old PFB was because I was in the most enormous of distress and I just lost it.
I just lost it and thus did that due SOLELY to that.
And even now, many many years on, I - very very genuinely - can still see his huge brown eyes staring up at me in utter bewilderment; fear; & just total confusion; and as tears rolled silently down his face. I was instantly in tears and felt UTTERLY neauseated.
And it nauseates me even now.
Just as those of you who state you see it fit and appropriate to physically hurt a child to 'teach it a lesson' etc etc also nauseate me.
Apparently everyone did this though. It was the seventies so I am not sure how true that is
No, not true. My children were all born in the 70s and among our peers, we knew one family who smacked. One. And even they didn't bite. I didn't smack my four, and they don't smack their own children.
And for the very few posters who think corporal punishment is a good thing, and teaches children a sharp, memorable lesson...you were probably not at school in the 50s, when teachers happily belted little children day in, day out, for such offences as forgetting a book, or damaging a school jotter (notebook?) by rubbing the eraser too hard. They used the same line - "That's what you get for...etc etc...you won't forget next time, will you?"
The victims in my school tended to be the poor kids, the neglected ones, the unwashed, under-slept, under-fed ones - those with no-one to defend them. Bullying, inadequate adults taking their anger out on the weak, that's all.
If it worked as a deterrant, or as a "lesson", why was it always the same children? It was cruelty, plain and simple, and the bloody injustice of it still breaks my heart.
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