Claimants to lose DLA even if FALSELY accused of fraud (to think this is HIGHLY unreasonable.)

(128 Posts)
Darkesteyes Wed 23-Oct-13 18:07:04

How can this even be legal. To stop a claimants income just because some bastard has falsely accused them.
In every other instance in this country someone is presumed innocent until proven guilty
Except when it comes to benefits when you are guilty until proven innocent.
But NOW it seems that the innocent are STILL going to be treated like they are guilty. angry

maddening Wed 23-Oct-13 18:09:04

Yanbu - no claim should be cancelled until proven guilty.

SanctimoniousArse Wed 23-Oct-13 18:09:44

So a malicious family member or neighbour could fuck your entire life!

slightlygoostained Wed 23-Oct-13 18:11:38


Dawndonnaagain Wed 23-Oct-13 18:11:42

Bastards, another way to fuck over the poor. Now, where's the number that will put tax evaders on higher rates?

Darkesteyes Wed 23-Oct-13 18:15:28

Its fucking disgusting. I nearly spat coffee everywhere when i saw this on my Twitter feed. Im absolutely disgusted.

youarewinning Wed 23-Oct-13 18:17:16

Fantastic hmm So if someone decides the money I get annoys them and calls in a false claim I'll lose DS' DLA.

That's why I don't tell anyone I get it grin

DoJo Wed 23-Oct-13 18:18:51

Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but the article suggests that anyone accused of fraud will be just be moved from DLA to the new PIP system as a part of being assessed to ascertain whether they are claiming fraudulently. It looks like the upper and lower limits of DLA and PIP are the same, so I'm not sure why PIP would be worse than DLA - are the criteria more stringent?

They're not stopping people's benefits, they're moving them onto PIP. From the end of this month, if you notify DLA of a change you'll be reassessed for PIP not DLA. What they're doing is including anyone who's been accused of fraud in this reassesment. Everyone will eventually be moved over.

However, there is no lower rate for PIP so if you are claiming lower rate DLA and someone accuses you of fraud then yes, you'll probably lose your benefit months before you would have done.

YANBU, it stinks, but it's worth reading past the headline.

SaucyJack Wed 23-Oct-13 18:21:54

I don't get what the problem is?

If they are found to have been falsely accused of DLA fraud, then they can make a new claim for PIP- which appears to be the same thing (and the same amount of money) but given a silly new name.

youarewinning Wed 23-Oct-13 18:23:48

I think the problem lies in that you will have the DLA stopped and then have to claim for PIP. Therefore its another 8-16 weeks whilst waiting for a claim to be assessed. Waiting again for all the consultants to write their reports about how the child's disability affects them.

OTOH because DLA is only awarded and awarded dependent on reports from professionals I can't see there being many people who get away with falsely claiming.

My award rate is given on the basis DS needs night care - however I know this won't always be the case and that when my circumstances change we'll have to apply for PIP despite our DLA claim being awarded until 2018.

ColderThanAWitchsTitty Wed 23-Oct-13 18:25:22

What si PIP worth? Won't this just encourage assholes to report and discourage people who are unsure about reporting a potential real liar?

ParsingFright Wed 23-Oct-13 18:25:37

The thresholds of PIP and DLA are not the same.

One of the purposes of PIP is to reduce the DLA bill by 20%. Maria Miller admitted this in parliament.

So an expected 20% of people currently getting DLA will get nothing.

Eg the changes include "unable to walk 50m" goes down to "unable to walk 20m".

Darkesteyes Wed 23-Oct-13 18:27:10

EXACTLY youarewinning Why the fuck should disabled people be put through all that just because they happen to be ill or not able bodied.

cariadmawr Wed 23-Oct-13 18:27:24

*saucy jack *k and how in gods name are people meant to servive till next claim comes through can tell you don't get dla . When we who are disabled need that money to pay for taxis help with care someone to clean and do things for us who can't .

I just love people like you who have no bloody realistic idea on the needs of disabled.feel you can give.stupid comments as your judgement

ParsingFright Wed 23-Oct-13 18:31:47

And yes, the problem is "just" that some people will be utterly screwed a few years before, oh, they were going to be utterly screwed.

It sounds as if the new benefit doesn't quite match up with the old so your new claim can be refused. If so that is much worse than I thought.

At the very least it means you go without money for a time because of the accusation. Even if you get the money in the end you don't get the money you have to pay back in bank charges or loans because you had to manage without it.

That's why anyone who starts a thread saying "I suspect my neighbour might be cheating - I think I will report them" should get the (metaphorical) kicking they deserve.

DoJo Wed 23-Oct-13 18:33:07

I think the article title is a bit disingenuous as it seems to imply that people who are falsely accused of fraud will have their benefits stopped indefinitely (which I appreciate they may as well be for many if there will be a long delay in reinstating them) but doesn't actually mention the relevant information which has been supplied by posters here. It seems like it does a disservice to the people affected to make sweeping statements which aren't necessarily true and not mention the details which will actually have the biggest impact on people's lives e.g the gap between payments if switching from DLA to PIP and the increased stringency of the criteria for claiming which seem to be the real problem. I appreciate that if you are affected by the changes you are probably already aware of these matters, but to garner support from those who do not claim DLA it would help to spell out the difficulties more clearly.

songlark Wed 23-Oct-13 18:40:36

What about a shop a fraudulent MP hotline.

ParsingFright Wed 23-Oct-13 18:42:45

I agree it could be more detailed, but BenefitsandWork is a specialist site and expects a specialist readership, who would therefore know the background.

Now if you're suggesting that a general news outlet, like the BBC or Daily Telegraph should be writing articles with the full background, to inform the general public of the further disaster about to be inflicted on disabled people, I agree wholeheartedly!

SaucyJack Wed 23-Oct-13 18:44:49

I was just making a perfectly reasonable response to the OP cariad- which last time I checked was the point of AIBU.

Go and find somebody else to dump your personal shit on.

ParsingFright Wed 23-Oct-13 18:52:37

Blardy hell.

This isn't some theoretical pub discussion, SaucyJack. This whole thread is about the personal shit that will personally be dumped on people who, personally, are disabled.

If you can't cope with that, go play AIBU games about jam first or cream.

JakeBullet Wed 23-Oct-13 18:58:54

Telling someone that it is reasonable for them to lose money which they rely in until someone somewhere decides the accusation is malicious is NOT a "reasonable response".

Unsurprisingly a claimant came in and forcefully told SaucyJack that she was wrong.....and pointed out the impact. SaucyJack took offence at hearing how this REALLY impacts on REAL people with REAL disabilities.

And sadly this will affect REAL people.

ParsingFright Wed 23-Oct-13 19:03:35

I think SaucyJack just didn't think her first comment through. I mean, the problem's obvious as soon as you think about it, but hey, people do post without thinking.

But telling someone to "go dump their personal shit" on "somebody else" when the impact of this policy is what the whole sodding thread is about... hmm

GatoradeMeBitch Wed 23-Oct-13 20:13:16

My malicious next door neighbours will be on the phone accusing my son of having a fraudulent claim as soon as they hear about this...

Dawndonnaagain Wed 23-Oct-13 21:13:00

Saucy The problem is wading through pages of repetative personal details. The problem is being without money for a long period of time. The problem is there is no innocent until proven guilty. The problem is the new rules are different and designed to ensure that 20%fewer people will be able to claim. They will still have the same disability but where they got mobility allowance before, the likelihood is, if they can manage in their own homes, to get to the bathroom, they will no longer be able to claim the mobility component. The problem is this government is penalising the poor and the disabled for being poor and disabled. The problem is this government.

sashh Wed 23-Oct-13 21:34:18

so I'm not sure why PIP would be worse than DLA - are the criteria more stringent?

They are different.

Also you have to make a claim, so yo have to fill in a long form and wait for a decision as to whether you qualify for PIP.

THEN you have to wait 3 months before you get a payment. It is not just swapping from one benefit to another.

tolittletoolate Wed 23-Oct-13 21:35:36

that site is good but they do like scaremongering, I don't believe it personally.

Itstartshere Wed 23-Oct-13 22:00:43

And isn't PIP going to be quite a lot less money than DLA?

tolittletoolate Wed 23-Oct-13 22:15:48

no pip is exactly the same amount of money as dla.

ParsingFright Wed 23-Oct-13 23:20:30

Why's that, tolittletoolate?

kotinka Wed 23-Oct-13 23:22:41

That's bloody disgraceful, I can't see how that's legal either Darkesteyes.

DoubleLifeIsForAnyFUCKER Wed 23-Oct-13 23:37:12

There are alot of things this government are doing which arent exactly legal / skirt the line.

If my dla was stopped I would become homeless at the end of the month, as I have to use part of it for rent as my disability wiped my earning power and am stuck in v unsuitable accommodation whilst waiting to be moved into more accessible place. Not what it's for but it's caused by my disability so all goes into the melting pot.

I use the rest to pay specialist carers who obviously can't work for free for the months I'd be without the rest of their income. Its taken me a year to find the right skillset snd match for me and i cant exactly lay them off then expect to rehire can i?

Without these carers my health would spiral out of control, I can't wash or eat without them, let alone move around my house, couldn't get prescriptions for vital medication.

However none of that would matter as I wouldn't be able to look after my little boy, so would top myself anyway, as he's the only reason I'm still here.

That's called REAL effects of government policies.

DoubleLifeIsForAnyFUCKER Wed 23-Oct-13 23:38:31

(thank fuck no one has reported me btw!) I will certainly not tell people I get it in the future, careless lips lose lives etc...

kotinka Wed 23-Oct-13 23:41:19

I can imagine this being misused to kick people off DLA and make them reclaim PIP without any genuine allegations being made.

GobbySadcaseFucker Wed 23-Oct-13 23:43:37

Well that's us fucked then. We already get at least 2 malicious reports a year. And yes I know exactly who's doing it - same person who reports us to RSPCA maliciously.

DoubleLifeIsForAnyFUCKER Wed 23-Oct-13 23:48:16

Does anyone know the stats on how many reports of fraud actually get upheld?

GobbySadcaseFucker Wed 23-Oct-13 23:53:39

0.7% including a margin for DWP payment error.

diaimchlo Wed 23-Oct-13 23:58:37

The sad fact is that people think that if a disability is not openly visible. They report someone who they know is in receipt of DLA/PIP but they saw him/her in their garden weeding (for example) they then report them without a thought that they may suffer severe Epilepsy or mental health issues that prevent them being able to live a "normal" life. For these people to be in receipt of this benefit they have had to have had evidence form the relevant health professionals, which in many cases lately has been proved to have been ignored by the DWP etc... so they would get their money stopped..

This is definitely another horrific attempt by this sadistic, self serving, moronic so called Government to demean the sick and disabled, whilst spitting their dummies out for a 11% pay rise and stupid expenses..... and please do remember that the leader of that Government was not backward at claiming DLA for his son when he could afford the best quality car out of his pocket change.....

OK off my soapbox now!

IneedAsockamnesty Thu 24-Oct-13 00:03:31

Those with children who qualify for DLA currently can stop worrying for the time being.

PIP is for over 16's so if you have a current long term award for DLA for a under 16 it will stay DLA until they hit 16.

Even with an allegation or change

GobbySadcaseFucker Thu 24-Oct-13 00:09:29

Diai I think I liiiike you wink

catloony Thu 24-Oct-13 02:11:14

I can believe this as I work in this area and although have no cases of this what has happened to people I work with. Was what happened is when older people who receive state pension who should never ever stop receiving for any ever as they are always still entitled to recevie this, have another benefit paid combined with it, either Attendance Allowance or Pension Credit or both, and i mean as only one lumped together weekly payment of multiple benefits including the state pension, when a stoppage of one benefit means all stop, suddenly I have known people to have nothing at all for weeks

DoubleLifeIsForAnyFUCKER Thu 24-Oct-13 02:24:24

Thanks for sharing that Gobby, really high then confused
Obviously informing on people isn't flawed in the slightest then either. Ffs. I hate feeling so persecuted by the government & society at large. It's disgusting.

songlark Thu 24-Oct-13 04:18:50

Encouraging malicious accusations from people who might just simply be bearing a grudge is disgusting. Very redolent of Gestapo tactics in ww2.

diaimchlo Thu 24-Oct-13 08:26:52

thankyou Gobby smile Great minds think alike smile

pixiepotter Thu 24-Oct-13 08:33:27

Is that not the case for all benefits? Don't they all stop whilst under investigation? (genuine question not rhetorical)

diaimchlo Thu 24-Oct-13 08:39:50

Double flowers

I personally can fully empathise with you, I do wonder how a supposedly intelligent, diverse and PC society can believe the twisted lies that certain Ministers put out in the media about the sick and disabled. They need to realise that they are only an accident or illness away from being in the same boat confused

Latara Thu 24-Oct-13 08:40:17

This is really worrying me as I'm not allowed to work full time due to my mental health problems; I get DLA for them and for epilepsy - and the DLA means I can 'top up' my income with WTC - i'm still struggling financially though.

It's worrying because I look and seem healthy and someone malicious could report me - i'm thinking of one colleague in particular who is a bitch... maybe i'm worrying for no good reason but losing DLA would wreck my life right now.

diaimchlo Thu 24-Oct-13 08:47:52


Please try not to worry, you are describing exactly what I posted further up.

What some stupid people do not understand is that DLA/PIP is a benefit in place to enable people such as yourself to be able to work and if you lose it you will cost the benefit system and taxpayers more through having to claim ESA......

Latara Thu 24-Oct-13 08:53:56

Thanks diaimchlo the problem is that certain people at work seem envious of the fact that I work less days a week (when the stress of work contributed to psychosis last year).

They have been asking how I cope which is a thinly veiled attempt to find out if i'm on benefits. I've admitted that I get benefits to a couple of friends there but I know how gossip spreads.
Hopefully most people like me and wouldn't be malicious but you never know.

Back to the OP, yes I think it should be innocent until proven guilty and people shouldn't lose benefits unless they've been found to be fraudulent.

Darkesteyes Thu 24-Oct-13 16:47:32

Latara a friend of mine is on DLA and WTC too. Similar boat to you only she has epilepsy. if someone were to maliciously report her there is no way she could afford to go into work and there is no way her employer would wait 8 to 16 weeks and keep the job open while its sorted. Not to mention the obvious situation of her possibly facing homelessness.
Gestapo tactics is a bang on description.

tolittletoolate Thu 24-Oct-13 17:19:18

I had a very interesting conversation with the people in the shop mobility shop yesterday. They have lots of people in there boasting about getting benefits when they have nothing wrong with them at all.

ifyourehoppyandyouknowit Thu 24-Oct-13 17:21:35

If you lose DLA while it is being investigated, what happens to your blue badge, carers allowance, bus pass or travel card, taxi vouchers etc etc?

This is horrendous.

IneedAsockamnesty Thu 24-Oct-13 17:23:17

I had a very interesting conversation with the people in the shop mobility shop yesterday. They have lots of people in there boasting about getting benefits when they have nothing wrong with them at all

No they don't.

cariadmawr Thu 24-Oct-13 17:23:52

Saucy jack all I say is go to hell just because someone points something out you know sweet all about personally . Hardly think I'm rumpin personal shit

cariadmawr Thu 24-Oct-13 17:27:25

Thanks. All other mn who took my original point didn't have time last night was dealin with personal shit of a disabled ill husband and struggling to walk .

ParsingFright Thu 24-Oct-13 17:27:40

tolittletoolate you crack me up!

What on earth are all these "lots of people" doing in Shopmobility if they're not there for mobility aids?

Dawndonnaagain Thu 24-Oct-13 17:36:58

I don't think it's kind or pleasant to come onto a thread where people are worried and frightened about government changes and go on about people apparently boasting about fiddling benefits. It is frequently pointed out how low according to the dwp fraud figures actually are.
The site, by the way doesn't tend to be alarmist, rather it is factual. However, one wonders what you are doing with membership if you think we're all on the scrounge? Surely if you are disabled yourself or have a family member who is, then you understand how important it is not to spout the propaganda the government are passing to the Daily Fail.

Darkesteyes Thu 24-Oct-13 17:39:39

tolittletolate even if that was true (WHICH IT ISNT) they would hardly be saying that to you being as it involves the livelihood of the ppl who work in that shop.

ParsingFright Thu 24-Oct-13 17:40:56

HopALong, if DLA were stopped, an existing blue badge wouldn't be taken away (at least by my council), but if it came up for renewal it would be hard to get a new one.

Ditto Disabled Person's Railcard.

BTW, both of those are paid for, not free - the blue badge is about a tenner round here, the railcard IIRC upwards of £30.

Carers Allowance I think would be stopped immediately.

Other services, it depends on the service. But DLA is used as convenient passporting benefit, so for example I will lose mine when the distance is changed from 50m to 20m, and will then not be able to renew my railcard.

JakeBullet Thu 24-Oct-13 17:46:15

It is fine folks, toolittle is comforting herself with that old chestnut "well they're all scroungers anyway". She has opened, read and then swallowed all the propoganda .....after all it couldn't happen to her could it?

One accident away from needing these benefits. That's all it sometimes takes for you to need the very benefits you think people are scrounging.

Must be comforting to know the future.

ifyourehoppyandyouknowit Thu 24-Oct-13 17:49:53

This is getting beyond a joke (understatement).

What's to stop malicious accusations and how do they expect people to survive? In my area no PIP awards (exfep in cases of terminal illness) even though they aret accepting applications, because cases are still going through the courts and no one seems sure what that will come to. PIP is just an excuse to reassess everyone and make the criteria stricter. Thiat is just shit.

ifyourehoppyandyouknowit Thu 24-Oct-13 17:51:03

Should say no awards are being made.

SaucyJack Thu 24-Oct-13 18:08:53

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

kotinka Thu 24-Oct-13 18:28:54

saucy jack the problem is that making a dla claim is very difficult to do and if you are moved onto pip, you face unfair medical examiners.

many people being shunted onto pip have been proclaimed fit fir work, lost their disability benefits, then, because they're so healthy hmm , died from their conditions.

kotinka Thu 24-Oct-13 18:31:39

the dismantling of the dla system is an attack on the part of our society who needs practical help. Another way of gaining revenue without affecting the wealthy.

tolittletoolate Thu 24-Oct-13 18:52:31

I didn't mean it like that. What I actually meant was there are still some people getting dla/esa that don't need it. Then there are other genuine people who somehow don't qualify for anything despite being ill and disabled. I am disabled myself and after the hell of claiming dla which has dragged on for more than a year it annoys me that still there are people able to play the system.

As has already been pointed out, tolittle, the rate for incorrect claims is 0.7%. Not all of that figure is fraud, some of it is cock-ups involving innocent people. That's substantially less than 1 in 100 claimants so don't let that tiny minority upset you.

exmrs Thu 24-Oct-13 19:49:36

For people who think what's the big deal they just claim pip it can take months or longer to sort,
my mum was on old incapacity benefit and when moved onto esa they put her on work activity group even though she very Ill and had dr s and consultants letters to back her being in support group, she was actually in hospital having an operation when she had to fill form in which I did on her behalf and they said she was able to go to work in 3 months time despite having a major operation.
. It has taken 2 years to get the tribunal heard and for a year she had no income at all as after 12 months esa work group contributions based your money stops , 2 years even though there were obvious mistakes made by dwp and has finally been placed in the support group. 2 years my mum has worried and gone through hell.

exmrs Thu 24-Oct-13 20:12:24

Forgot to add and this will be true for pip as well as esa, as my mum wasn't physically able to have a medical as she was in hospital a dwp person made a judgement ignoring dr letters but obviously thought they were more qualified to make a judgement about how well my mum was which has caused 2 years of hell.
Its unbelievable someone with no medical experience holds someone's life in their hands

Dawndonnaagain Thu 24-Oct-13 20:56:30

Apologies tolittle.

tolittletoolate Thu 24-Oct-13 21:31:49

I apologise, what I wrote came out all wrong.

Dawndonnaagain Thu 24-Oct-13 22:03:55

Happens to the best of us, tolittle No worries.

Darkesteyes Thu 24-Oct-13 22:23:49

No worries tolittle Its an emotive subject

IneedAsockamnesty Thu 24-Oct-13 23:10:00


You have a very valid point but what the flying fuck are you doing calling admin staff with no medical training whatsoever medical examiners?

They are nothing more than basic admin staff filling out a tick box list and ATOS openly admit that.

kotinka Thu 24-Oct-13 23:33:29

sock, that is what they call themselves, don't bite me head off luv.

BeyondAnyFuckingJoke Thu 24-Oct-13 23:39:22

I rang up to apply for my PiP first week of august. Today they no showed for my medical, which is now rearranged for another two weeks time.
Just to give people an idea of timescales...

IneedAsockamnesty Fri 25-Oct-13 00:21:36

I know kotinka,I also knew that you knew it was a tongue in cheek remark because lots of people who turn up on these threads spouting bile don't know grin

kotinka Fri 25-Oct-13 00:23:26

grin sorry, I'm prickly tonight.

DoubleLifeIsForAnyFUCKER Fri 25-Oct-13 00:27:01

It's a prickly subject smile

IneedAsockamnesty Fri 25-Oct-13 01:05:39

Lots of us are when it comes to this topic. Its a sign of a decent human being

Darkesteyes Fri 25-Oct-13 01:38:05

YY Sock wine

wonkyandproudish Fri 25-Oct-13 02:09:52

fwiw ParsingFright you wont lose your railcard on PIP if you meet the 50m criteria for high rate mobility DLA

<<boring interlude>>

the 50m is used to get "standard rate" mobility (equivalent to low mobility on DLA) under PIP and the 20m is a criterion for the "enhanced rate" and is the high mobility equivalent

unlike DLA you can also "mix and match" criteria for points eg if you meet the 50m criteria for physical reasons AND need someone with you or can't always follow/ask for directions for MH/LD reasons you can get high rate mobility, it is stricter than DLA physical-wise, ridiculously so, but opens up the high rate for people with severe agoraphobia/anxiety/non-disruptive & non-aggressive LDs who don't have 24hr care needs, also for people with a combination of physical and non-physical disabilities.

it is important to mention though that if it hurts you to walk, there is your 20m and your enhanced mobility under PIP. if you can't safely, reliably, repeatedly walk 20m in a reasonable time frame, you can start arguing your case from there. but why should you have to. The claimants own doctors reports should come first imo and Atos should only get involved where claimants REQUEST an external assessment due to unsupportive GPs etc. (raging lefty/semi activist here, sorry)

also if you need someone with you in case of falls/fits you can get high rate mobility under PIP whereas under DLA that need for accompaniment would only get you low rate mobility. this is not solely a MH criterion as some people think it is, but about whether it is safe for you to go out alone - eg if you might have an absence seizure while crossing the road, or your hip might dislocate while walking, or you have poor vision but are not fully blind and could miss seeing a car coming where someone with normal vision might see it.

<<end boring interlude>>

you can get a disabled person's railcard with any rate of DLA mobility

the same goes for PIP: from the railcard website -

People now receiving Personal Independence Payments at any level for either the Mobility or Daily Living components, are eligible for a Disabled Persons Railcard.

Same as DLA - people on middle/high care or any rate mobility could all get the railcard and PIP is supposedly an equivalent

cold comfort really when you take into account the sop of 2k that Motability are throwing at people who are losing cars/scooters/wheelchairs and much of the money to pay for them within a couple of years all because of 30m.


passedgo Fri 25-Oct-13 02:15:19

This stinks of benefit scrouger bashing. It is also a waste of taxpayers money as it eill be overturned as breaking equality and human rights laws.

wonkyandproudish Fri 25-Oct-13 02:27:49

anyway with regards to the actual op there is a stodgy bureaucratic reason behind the fraud accusations triggering reassessment for PIP.

Under the DLA system a fraud report would trigger a benefit review and the claimant would be sent a change of circs form which had to be filled in or DLA would stop. (for cases where major fraud was not suspected - for the daily mail type "golfer"/"disco dancer"/"labourer" type cases they would not touch the claim in case the investigation was noticed and instead do the whole hidden camera malarkey then prosecute for fraud).

this review was treated EXACTLY the same as if the claimant had asked for a review themselves - like a new claim and based on the evidence they could provide.

the DLA stoppage is the same. the review triggered is now for PIP as from Monday all DLA review requests, whether they are triggered by a fraud report or by the claimants own request, are treated as PIP new claims. Grey faced dead eyed bureaucracy. The DLA payment itself however ought not to stop until the PIP reassessment is completed. OUGHT not to.

DoubleLifeIsForAnyFUCKER Fri 25-Oct-13 03:01:03

God it's hideous isn't it... I'm not well enough to be able to be in a car let alone drive, so although I get higher tags mobility I am waiting and hoping that I manage to get a bit better to get a mobability car ... Except I'll get reassessed for pip before I stand any chance of getting better... And I can see my chances of becoming even slightly mobile just slipping away sad

I would hope I'd get assessed as higher rate pip mobility, but hope doesn't mean much now does it!

Its so hard to even get specific medical evidence anyway, as consultants don't want to get involved with any of the social impact of medical conditions. They also seem to firmly believe that they should be optimistic and not limit expectations so they would never write 'she can't walk more than 20 m... Cos they'd say that they don't know, or with physio & pacing there's no medical limit on the number of meters. I was lucky and got a good gp letter that did say stuff like this before for dla, but my gp wouldn't do that again now as I've pissed her off with my constant needs for referrals & tests & medications...

Very frustrating that the two disciplines don't overlap or have any way of communicating with each other.

Trigglesx Fri 25-Oct-13 07:44:38

Toolittle There are very very few people able to "play the system" in regards to DLA. And think about what that shop employee told you.... and put a little logic into it. If there was nothing wrong with them, what the hell would they be doing in a mobility shop??? I think if that employee said something to you along those lines, they were probably just bullshitting.

tolittletoolate Fri 25-Oct-13 08:16:07

I've already apologised for my comment that was inappropriate and nothing to do with this thread.
I wrote before I thought about what I was saying.
My actual conversation with someone was about disabled people working, not about if they are claiming benefits or not.
I am a wheelchair user but I would still like to have a job that I could do sitting down!
I appreciate this has nothing to do with dla and the subject of this thread which is about the bloody government stopping genuine claims.

DoubleLifeIsForAnyFUCKER Sat 26-Oct-13 02:32:14

Are the PiP forms as exhaustive or is it purely on the face to face interview?

It took me 4 months to complete the dla forms partly as there are 69 pages, partly the physical strain of doing it, & partly the mental process of admitting to myself how bad things actually were.

It was arduous but also useful as although it knocked me for six, the process of admitting to myself how badly disabled I actually am made my answers more accurate. I had a friend (& medic) rip up the page on walking and forced me to stand up and show her how far I could walk (7m! Lots of tears after) I find it far too upsetting to think like that unless I really have to.

I worry that if it's all on the medically unqualified/ non specialist tick box interview I would have scores zero as they would t read through my replies filled with British reserve and understatement, I wouldn't have known how to answer properly either.

I also worry about the marking criteria with that exposé of the Scottish nurse a year back, who said they were trained to observe and score very untruly e.g. Watch them as they sign, if they can pick up a pen for a signature, that means they can write, if they let you in their door, they are mobile etc.

Misspixietrix Sat 26-Oct-13 06:59:33

My DM has just gone through the ordeal of her life after s simple operation went horrifically wrong. Has left her with a trachy unable to talk and will spend an indefinite time on ICU before they even think about moving her down to HDU and then the basic wards. I rang her work group up for her to tell them she won't be in for her next appointment and got told tell her we will ring her in a few weeks. It took me more than once to explain to them she can't physically talk before someone with two brain cells suggested helpfully they would ring me instead to see how she was. Heaven help DLA/PIP if they even try doing this to her as she is most definately going to need carers now. sad coming from this Government however I am far from surprised. No level they won't stoop to.

BeyondPissedOffAtTheWorld Sat 26-Oct-13 07:26:02

The PIP forms arent as long as the DLA ones, no, though the questions are pretty much the same. They do most of it on the interview though, well they must do as I never sent my form back blush
The whole idea of them doing their best to prove I dont need anything really sets off my anxiety. Hence why I didnt send the form back, nor apply when i was first ill.

diaimchlo Sat 26-Oct-13 08:24:49

Breaking news folks:

This just shows how inept this government is!

ParsingFright Sat 26-Oct-13 16:19:02

Thanks for that wonky. If I can still any passporting benefit even though I can walk 20m, that will make a difference to me.

(Yes, have to have the "reliably, repeatedly, safely" argument every time. Exceptionally difficult to prove, as some days I can do 50m in a one-off without being visibly affected. But not repeatedly, and not without delayed impact.)

tolittletoolate Sat 26-Oct-13 21:33:26

When I had my DLA medical the other day we worked out I can manage about 15 metres on crutches. I can't stand unaided and use a wheelchair. Hopefully that will qualify me for the mobility part, because I've been turned down and had to appeal!

Trigglesx Sat 26-Oct-13 21:38:29

It's nuts isn't it? Best of luck tolittle, although it's frustrating that I should even have to say that - it should be a given that you'd qualify.

tolittletoolate Sat 26-Oct-13 22:55:35

Yeah you'd think so!

DoubleLifeIsForAnyFUCKER Sun 27-Oct-13 01:02:08

"reliably, repeatedly, safely" is a mantra for these things isn't it!

I could maybe do more than 20m in an emergency (like, burning building type stuff!)... But I'd injure myself doing so, and deteriorate my condition, and send me into a spiral of cancelling all health appointments/ work/ needing more care, increased risk of further injury. After I've had to do a mamouth over exert before I've seen my whole life collapse before my eyes as a result, there is only so much life you can cut back on to recuperate when you're bedbound 18-24hrs a day and regular stuff like washing hair is laughably out of reach (15 weeks without hair washing is my current record, it's foul and dehumanising).

So I am not looking forwards to some unqualified pen pusher trying to claim that because I can raise my arm without dislocating it once... I can do it all the time.

Arggh! Makes me angry/ despondent/ dreading it even thinking about it

DoubleLifeIsForAnyFUCKER Sun 27-Oct-13 01:09:07

Btw, how successful have you / anyone been in getting a gp/ consultant to explain their condition in words that dla/ atos/ social services actually use to measure disability?

Eg. She is deconditioned and has trouble mobilising and finds it more comfortable to remain prone ... Is not enough but ime they never want deal in specifics such as ... Her intercostal muscles are so weak that they do not support her upper back and lead to a reliance on blah muscles, meaning that she finds it very difficult to remain upright for more than a few minutes at a time.

maddening Sun 27-Oct-13 07:06:48

Surely when a false accusation is proved malicious the person making malicious and false accusations should be prosecuted - quite apart from the devastation they are maliciously visiting on innocent people it must cost a fortune to do all the investigations (as that is a driver of policy it seems).

IneedAsockamnesty Sun 27-Oct-13 07:19:00


That's only if you fail to notice that the main policy driver is appearing to save money as opposed to actually doing it.

Shaving costs by not providing support when needed is not cost saving if it costs three times as much to do,it just looks like it is to those who won't bother to look into the figures.

Trigglesx Sun 27-Oct-13 09:26:01

maddening they'll never prosecute unless it's an extreme situation - because they'll say that would prevent people from reporting suspected fraud.

Meerkatwhiskers Sun 27-Oct-13 11:57:07

my stepdad has just been moved from higher rate dsa to higher rate pip.

he has also been moved from incapacity benefit to esa. he has to go for regular interviews at the job centre with a view to getting him back to work. his interviewer agrees he won't be able to work (severe arthritis, had a stroke, chronic kidney disease - almost in failure, heart failure, AF, high blood pressure and he's dyslexic so can't read or write very well) yet he is only getting was for a year then it stops and he just gets pip which they use for a car.

they suck!!

3littlefrogs Sun 27-Oct-13 12:12:37

It took me 9 months to get a blue badge for a relative who is blind.

The consultant had written "blind" on the required form, but the person processing the application decided that my relative was "only visually impaired" and the consultant was wrong.

When you are up against that kind of behaviour it is very difficult.

How on earth do people who have no-one to help with applications and form filling cope?

Another relative was seriously ill and waiting for a transplant.

Every time he was admitted to hospital his DLA was stopped and had to be applied for all over again. Madness.

bluejasmine Sun 27-Oct-13 12:46:37

I got turned down at appeal for DLA about eight years ago, which was a humiliating experience. I'd been getting it at higher rate for care but on renewal they claimed they didn't have enough evidence from my GP as the one I had was very unsympathetic at the time. I managed to re-apply successfully a couple of years later and I've been quite obsessive about pushing for referrals and continuous contact with consultants, as their word is taken more seriously than a GP's. I'm very nervous about the switch to PIP and every time I see my consultant I'm careful to re-state how my various symptoms are continuing, because I know he makes notes about all of this and I'll use my medical records to send in as evidence for PIP. Going for consultations aren't just about getting medical help any more, it's about gathering evidence so I don't lose my benefits. I keep all my paperwork, letters for appointments etc, so that it's clear I'm in need of on-going support.

And I've never told anyone that I get DLA, not even family, because I'm terrified that my (invisible) disability won't be understood and someone might falsely accuse me of fraud.

BeyondPissedOffAtTheWorld Sun 27-Oct-13 13:03:15

Yep, and all this is why I didnt send the form off, I need it but decided it wasnt worth the effect in my mental health, and i HAVE support. Luckily I have rcently found out my local council will give blue badges without pip, although I'm sure they didnt without Dla, so am just going to apply directly for that anyway, and if i get my pip through too i'll just count myself lucky.

Darkesteyes Sun 27-Oct-13 16:49:11

The way disabled people are being treated in this country is appalling. If it was happening in another country the stress illness and deaths that this has caused would be all over the news constantly.

DoubleLifeIsForAnyFUCKER Sun 27-Oct-13 20:53:28

I mentioned this to a legal bod friend of mine and although it's not her area she rather thought it would be illegal and someone needs to take this before a judge.

I hope that's true.

FortyDoorsToNowhere Sun 27-Oct-13 21:02:39

I really don't know how anyone could fraudulently claim DLA.

I needed a shed load of information to get DS.

IneedAsockamnesty Sun 27-Oct-13 21:41:10

That's why the fraud rate for it is so low

Sinful1 Sun 27-Oct-13 23:00:24

I dunno we stick a guys face and name in the papers if someone falsely accuses him of rape....

BeyondPissedOffAtTheWorld Mon 28-Oct-13 10:59:37


GatoradeMeBitch Mon 28-Oct-13 11:58:10

Sinful if you want to start a conversation about rape, start your own thread instead of trying to derail this one.

diaimchlo Mon 28-Oct-13 13:14:05


It sounds like your Dad has been put in the WRAG appeal this and try to get him into the support group, he won't have to go to the JCP for irrelevant interviews.

Double There is Samuel Miller, a Canadian guy, who is appalled at the way Ian Duncan Smith and his cronies are acting towards those who are most vulnerable in UK society, he has drawn up papers and has taken it to the International Criminal Court at the Hague. Read more here.......


Darkest It should be widely reported by the media but most seem to have allegiance to the Tories angry

tolittletoolate Mon 28-Oct-13 15:21:00

I have been put in the support group for esa but tbh I wouldn't have minded being put in the wrag at all . It sounds like they do a lot to re train you to get a job.
I would love to be able to work but I'm not trained to do anything other than physical work and now I'm in a wheelchair that's impossible. I think I am in a minority though.

Misspixietrix Mon 28-Oct-13 16:24:19

Double yes I believe it should go to a Judicial Review and hopefully will.

Misspixietrix Mon 28-Oct-13 16:26:42

diaimlchlo don't they just? I've even fallen out with Channel 4! grin

ParsingFright Mon 28-Oct-13 16:35:05

tolittle, you can ask to do the activities of the WRAG, if you find any that are any use for you. They're supposed to be available to everyone on ESA - just that for the WRAG, "being helped" is mandatory and enforced.

You can find out what your JobCentre disability clerks are offering locally.

I wouldn't get your hopes up too far - I looked into this back when it was a genuine service taken up only by people who found it useful (rather than a form of "hassle", as Lord Freud so charmingly put it). And even then their activities were mostly basic literacy, "CV-writing" and "being encouraging".

I used them to get a guaranteed interview for a job I'd seen in the paper. I didn't get the job - which may or may not have been because I disclosed my health problems and likely absence rate. Just as well all round, given my health then deteriorated, but there you go.

Anyway, you can but ask, and there might be something useful for you. But I would treat the DWP with caution and get everything in writing. You don't want to find you're now being treated as a mandatory participant and sanctioned if you decide it's not working for you (as happened to people re "voluntary work experience" aka workfare.)

Also, try your local college or library. Some may have courses cheap or free for people on certain benefits.

tolittletoolate Sat 02-Nov-13 09:57:03

I'm in shock, have been awarded high rate mobility and middle rate care.
Looking at motability cars next week and a driving assessment so I can get an adapted car with hand controls as my legs are too weak to drive a normal car.
So relieved that I will actually have some independence and be able to go out smile

Woohoo, congratulations! (Seems weird to congratulate you, but i'm sure you know what i mean)

tolittletoolate Sat 02-Nov-13 10:38:09

thank you, I feel happy that I've got it but sad that I am now officially 'disabled' sad

ParsingFancy Sat 02-Nov-13 11:21:15

Hope life gets a lot better for you once you're out and about again.

DoubleLifeIsALifeOfSorts Tue 05-Nov-13 21:31:51

Oh it's horribly poignant isnt it - you have to fight to become labelled as the thing you're fighting not to become sad

Darkesteyes Tue 05-Nov-13 22:23:35

toolittle Hope getting out and about and getting independence again helps to make you a bit happier thanks

I have my assessment today. <scared>

ParsingFancy Wed 06-Nov-13 08:44:07

Thinking of you, Beyond.

You're allowed to have someone with you, and you're allowed to take notes.

Best of luck.

Its at home (in wales, capita do mainly home visits) so DH and the kids will be here. Which should be interesting...

Guess who no showed for a second time... angry

ParsingFancy Wed 06-Nov-13 18:15:36

So, no unnecessary stress, then? angry

BTW, if they simply didn't turn up, rather than contacting you, I'd play it safe and write to Capita cc the DWP stating that this person hasn't turned up. Keep a copy.

You know what they're like.

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