To think the midwife will not give two hoots about my bikini line?

(338 Posts)
IneedAsockamnesty Fri 18-Oct-13 22:02:37

I'm going into hospital in just over a week to be induced, I can not see my bikini line and am disinclined to brandish a razor and any sharp bladed object near something I cannot see.

So will the midwife even notice let alone care?

ThePinkOcelot Fri 18-Oct-13 22:04:27

Of course she won't!
FWIW, I balanced a mirror on the loo seat and gave myself a haircut.

BrokenSunglasses Fri 18-Oct-13 22:05:08

She might notice but she won't care. I'd imagine she would be more surprised to see a perfectly trimmed bikini line by the time someone was ready to be induced!

SPsTombRaidingWithCliff Fri 18-Oct-13 22:05:21

No. No one cares. And it isn't true that they shave you when you go into labour. I learnt that the hard way, cheers mum

AndHarry Fri 18-Oct-13 22:06:46

YANBU. I gave myself a trim just before having DD last year. I took a little chunk out of my labia with the scissors sad

Then she was overdue by 2 weeks so I went to get waxed and had to be rolled off the therapist's couch blush

Moral is: Go natural.

Trills Fri 18-Oct-13 22:06:55

I've wondered about this.

Surely people don't think that any medical professionals will care.

So are they shaving or waxing just in case they have a tear, so there isn't hair near the wound?

That's the only logical thing that I can think of.

SPBisResisting Fri 18-Oct-13 22:07:08

Hang on...youre pregnant?!

emsyj Fri 18-Oct-13 22:07:16

No, she won't notice or care.

summertimeandthelivingiseasy Fri 18-Oct-13 22:07:48

Midwife won't care. Go to the hairdresser's instead (if you can stand the hairwashing).

Mydelilah Fri 18-Oct-13 22:09:24

They won't care. I got my bikini line waxed when I was in early stages of labour (I did not know this at the time!). It was a very very very bad idea indeed, trust me if you are close to delivery you do not want to go there....

QueFonda Fri 18-Oct-13 22:09:38

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ByTheWishingWell Fri 18-Oct-13 22:10:00

Don't do it! I had this dilemma.

I decided to get a wax instead, but got told not to do that so late in the pregnancy. I then decided the smartest solution was to use hair removal cream. Which resulted in chemical burns and a pretty much unchanged bikini line.

The midwife sees it all every day, she won't even notice (although they do notice angry red burns blush.

atomicyoghurt Fri 18-Oct-13 22:11:17

She won't care and nor will you once you a tree in the moment!

AndHarry Fri 18-Oct-13 22:12:35

Do wash though.

AndHarry Fri 18-Oct-13 22:13:09

And don't give birth up a tree.

ceeveebee Fri 18-Oct-13 22:14:53

If you had to have a c section they will shave you if you haven't done it yourself, but otherwise there's no need

Snatchoo Fri 18-Oct-13 22:15:20

Nah, she won't care.

I shit practically in my midwife's face and she was completely unfazed. I expect some errant hair (which she had to deal with while stitching me up) was a walk in the park after that!

Mrspebble Fri 18-Oct-13 22:18:06

They won't give a damn .. I couldn't see down there.. Ended up having an emergency section.. In the midst of all the hullabaloo I heard the electric razor down there ... Saved me the job... Joke!!!

Chattymummyhere Fri 18-Oct-13 22:18:14

They don't care to your face but they do sometimes have a good giggle behind the door...

I shaved the morning in labour with my first and had shaved the day before labour with my second who was past due date..

Go in how ever you feel happy with that's all that matters

zzzzz Fri 18-Oct-13 22:19:08

I sincerely doubt someone worried about their bikini line topiary needs reminding to wash!

Don't bother, it won't make the slightest difference to the midwife or anyone else.

Yonididnaedaethat Fri 18-Oct-13 22:19:31

When I was having stitches with my 2nd DC the midwife said "it's hard to see with all the hair" shockshock I was mortified!! so I made sure I was tidy for the next time.....and typical I didn't need stitches! 10 years on I still remember that comment like it was yesterday lol

zzzzz Fri 18-Oct-13 22:21:15

Why would anyone giggle because OP hadn't done her bikini line? confused.

What bizarre world do you live in where that would be something to giggle about?

xpatmama Fri 18-Oct-13 22:21:29

I think they don't care. However if you need to be stitched up I understand it's quite helpful if the area us shaved :-)

VivaLeThrustBadger Fri 18-Oct-13 22:21:31

I can promise as a midwife I wouldn't even notice. I certainly wouldn't comment or giggle about it behind your back and have never heard anyone else do so.

Sometimes ladies apologise to me for stubbly legs and I always say that mine are worse. Sad thing is its normally true! grin

ThoRAVENomiki Fri 18-Oct-13 22:22:36

A lot of people don't shave ever, let alone during pregnancy or labour so I'd be surprised if natural hair growth would cause medical professionals to ''have a giggle". Don't worry about it OP they won't care smile

spicynaknik Fri 18-Oct-13 22:22:38

A good giggle? If your job involves seeing fanjo after fanjo of heavily pregnant women, why on earth would it be funny that someone hadn't trimmed their pubes for a while? Like it wasn't the norm. Jeez.

They won't care two hoots.

CoconutRing Fri 18-Oct-13 22:24:51

Some MWs laugh at ladies bikini lines because some MWs are not very nice people.

pigsDOfly Fri 18-Oct-13 22:26:56

What? You're about to give birth and you're worrying about your pubic hair?

Why would the midwife notice or care.

Yes, TombRaiding, if you're in your 30s or older, when your Mum gave birth they would have shaved her, they also gave you an enema when you were in early labour (yes really).

I had that with my first baby, who is now 33. By the time I got to the next one, 5 years later, they'd stopped doing either, thank god.

IneedAsockamnesty Fri 18-Oct-13 22:26:56

Hang on...youre pregnant?!

grin. Yep, at least I bloody hope so seen as I'm huge now,of course they could all be fibbing to me about it being an actual real baby and it could just be really bad wind.

Joking, I am indeed,I'm being induced at 36 weeks because my mobility issues and sickness are causing to many concerns.

Its never been an issue before because a lady used to come to my house and wax everything I couldn't reach but she's retired now and I will be buggered if I'm getting anybody else its just to undignified .

And 20 years ago my mum convinced me they shaved you as well she also jibbed on with some rubbish about enimas frightoned the life out of me when I had the eldest sock returner COW.

zzzzz Fri 18-Oct-13 22:27:09

I fail to see what would be funny???

littlecloud Fri 18-Oct-13 22:31:55

I don't think there's anything wrong with a little tidy up with a mirror but not a necessity probably make things easier to see down there post labour for tears etc and stitching. I have always done and will again for this one. Not because I think the mw will laugh just because I usually do so makes even more sense when someone/multiple people are probably going to spend allot more time studying it than dh ever has!

IneedAsockamnesty Fri 18-Oct-13 22:32:01

OMG someone cut a chunk out of their labia

That must have been very painful

ethlinn Fri 18-Oct-13 22:33:21

I actually asked my midwife at my last appointment whether there are any requirements/standards of gardening before labour and she seemed very amused by this question itself (lovely lovely midwife!). She said absolutely not and it doesn't matter anyway. I ended up trying to shave and trim. I was extremely happy with the results until I actually had the baby and realised I hadn't seen/reached certain areas so I'd left beautiful odd hairy patches. No one cared.

blondefriend Fri 18-Oct-13 22:34:13

You're going to wee and poo on her!! She (or he) won't care about the hair.

Beastofburden Fri 18-Oct-13 22:34:38

You are giving birth, it is not a social occasion, you do not need to tidy up.

TondelayoSchwarzkopf Fri 18-Oct-13 22:37:20

Why can't you have a wax late in pregnancy? I had my last wax at 7 months last time but this time I would prefer to be 'neater' for my own reasons and not because I give a toss about midwives and obstetricians.

I peed all over my MW last time so I doubt a hairy fanjo would bother her much.

I agree that nobody cares.

On the other hand, lochia is gross enough without clagging up with hair. Get OH to trim with scissors to prevent postnatal gloop.

idiot55 Fri 18-Oct-13 22:39:18

Yip about the only thing i remeber my midwife saying as i ws getting. Bit shaved for Emergency section, was" oh you could do with a tidy up"

5madthings Fri 18-Oct-13 22:41:48

What horry said, no-one cares but I got my dp to give me a trim purely because it was easier with all the post birth bleeding.

AndHarry Fri 18-Oct-13 22:43:42

It wasn't the best. I've never been great at using mirrors to do stuff when I can't actually see my hands.

Not waxing too late in pregnancy is because it hurts like heck. So much so that the muscles in my ab/pelvic floor area sort of seized up, hence being rolled off the couch like a beached whale.

littleblackno Fri 18-Oct-13 22:44:56

I got my bits waxed before ds (very vain), the woman doing it (who i'd known for a while) said "is that ok?" I was like "I can't bloody see it you tell me!" It's totally not needed but made me feel better. For what it's worth beauty therapists won't care about waxing it for you either.
When i had dd i had horrible, huge varicous veins so went in all bushy. Noone will laugh, there are far more undignified things going on than your pubic hair!

IneedAsockamnesty Fri 18-Oct-13 22:48:27

I've never poo'd on a midwife before ( at least not as ar as i know)nor have I ever had an issue with dealing with lochia but then I do find I can only pee for awhile after birth if I pour a jug of water over myself so that helps

MsVestibule Fri 18-Oct-13 22:48:48

Somebody I knew got their mum to give them an ante-natal trim shock. They must be very close.

nouvellevag Fri 18-Oct-13 22:50:06

I don't normally shave anywhere, legs included, so my midwife got the full yeti experience. Didn't bat an eyelid, and if she was secretly giggling then I'd think the worse of her - I got the face to face (face to muff?) care and respect I needed from her and tbh by the time I met her, I didn't mind who saw what. We're not talking dignified procedure here. I mean, I read that it's quite common to shit yourself while pushing, so are untamed pubes really on anyone's radar?

nouvellevag Fri 18-Oct-13 22:51:00

Oh I missed page 2 and didn't realise we'd already covered the poo scenario.

TigerBabyyy Fri 18-Oct-13 22:51:55

I shaved completley two days before being induced.

Well actually dh shaves me, he did before dd, during pregnancy and does now 12 months after pregnancy.

I had a section so was thankful i had shaved, plus i was examined alot due to being induced and again it was a more pleasant experience knowing i was tidy etc.

I am fully able to shave myself, but i find it a big pain trying to shave down there.

Dh likes me shaved, so the deal is that if he wants me shaven, then he can do it !

Could your partner not shave you?

Rhubarbgarden Fri 18-Oct-13 23:03:58

Weirdly, I find myself horrified at the idea of dh shaving me, despite the fact I trim his ear hair. confused

MatryoshkaDoll Fri 18-Oct-13 23:09:00

A friend of mine is a midwife and she says she couldn't give a single shit about pubic hairstyles.

FortyDoorsToNowhere Fri 18-Oct-13 23:15:14

Just don't use immac ( spelling) I used it at 39 weeks and burnt down there.

Luckily I was induced at 42 weeks and had healed.

Goofymum Fri 18-Oct-13 23:19:13

Yes there's the poo scenario, also protruding piles when pushing, tearing. A nice tidy presentation may be your concern now but once the birth process starts it'll be the least of yours and your mid wife's concerns.

PrincessFlirtyPants Fri 18-Oct-13 23:19:49

Somebody I knew got their mum to give them an ante-natal trim . They must be very close.

Oh.dear.god shock shock shock shock

During the stitching up (vaginal birth) after having ds1, the midwife said "you shave, you don't have to shave anymore, we don't believe in it!"
The dr looked up from my fanjo and said "ah yes, but we prefer it because it's easier for us to stitch!"
grin

DaleyBump Fri 18-Oct-13 23:21:55

I'm not a midwife but I am a student nurse and I can genuinely say that I've not paid the slightest bit of attention to anyone's pubic hair. I have seen uncountable numbers of fanjos and willies and I honestly can't remember specifically a single one. Don't worry about it, just go with however you feel comfortable smile

TondelayoSchwarzkopf Fri 18-Oct-13 23:22:25

I couldn't shave. So itchy when growing back. Waxing or nowt.

Also so [shocked] at the poor lady who cut her flaps. sad

BIWI Fri 18-Oct-13 23:27:57

"Yes, TombRaiding, if you're in your 30s or older, when your Mum gave birth they would have shaved her, they also gave you an enema when you were in early labour (yes really)."

I'm 54, and it definitely wasn't the case that you were shaved and given an enema when giving birth!

I hate the way people talk about being 'tidy'. It's a natural thing to have pubic hair, for goodness sake.

Just focus on having your baby and enjoying the experience, and stop worrying about it.

DaleyBump Fri 18-Oct-13 23:29:56

Oh, also, if you do want to tidy up, I would recommend a trim. You don't want to have to worry about ingrown hairs if you have an open wound (infection risk) or scratching down below when you're incredibly tender.

SPsTombRaidingWithCliff Fri 18-Oct-13 23:31:02

She told.me this 4 year ago! She told me this as apparently she fell for it when pregnant with me 23 year ago

ebwy Fri 18-Oct-13 23:43:24

I refuse to shave legs or "tidy" my pubes. If someone judges me on that, then it's their problem not mine.

twice I've had caesarians, and the 2 hospitals wanted different things.
the first hospital shaved the bit they needed hairless.
the second hospital told me to shave and had no answer to "can't see or reach there!" so I got my partner to do it,which he did but he also shaved a smiley face in the rest of my pubes.

I've never had any comments about my hairy limbs or the pubes in hospital

IneedAsockamnesty Fri 18-Oct-13 23:47:06

The itchiness would bother me as well.

I'm not worried about it im not going to cover it in glitter or anything i was just wondering people's viewpoints on the matter

LegoCaltrops Sat 19-Oct-13 00:01:00

Ha. I don't think the midwives cared that I'd not shaved. By the time I went into labour I was retaining so much water I couldn't reach much past my own knees, so shaving my lower legs was right out! Ironically, while I was labouring, they gave me some sexy compression stockings which covered my hairy calves so that was one less thing for me to worry about. And I shouldn't imagine any of them noticed my unshaven lady garden either. Just the giant baby coming out of it! grin

grobagsforever Sat 19-Oct-13 00:04:06

God this thread is depressing. You are giving birth. Why the hell should you do anything to your perfectly natural hair? Why oh why do women accept this kind sexist crap still??

Bunbaker Sat 19-Oct-13 00:05:45

"They don't care to your face but they do sometimes have a good giggle behind the door..."

That is a horrible thing to say. We aren't all porn stars you know.

Coupon Sat 19-Oct-13 00:09:32

> A lot of people don't shave ever, let alone during pregnancy or labour so I'd be surprised if natural hair growth would cause medical professionals to ''have a giggle".

Exactly. It's completely normal.

Bunbaker Sat 19-Oct-13 00:14:28

"Could your partner not shave you?"

I find the idea of OH administering something so personal utterly gross. Does your husband get a kick out of doing this?

"I hate the way people talk about being 'tidy'. It's a natural thing to have pubic hair, for goodness sake"

I'm the same age as you and I agree with you. When I was young no-one shaved. It is only since I joined MN that I discovered this strange custom phenomenon.

DaleyBump Sat 19-Oct-13 00:17:26

I don't shave but I do trim for comfort and I will do before I go into hospital to have my DS. Not for how it looks but purely because I don't want the extra hassle of blood mixed with pubes to deal with.

HungryHorace Sat 19-Oct-13 00:20:25

My friend's a midwife and she told me not to worry about 'tidy' pubes. She said they were more worried about minging feet or nits (like one of her patients had and neglected to tell them!).

Morloth Sat 19-Oct-13 00:20:45

I have had 2 babies and never removed any hair. No comments.

It is just hair.

I wouldn't care about appearances, but having had a crash CS with my public line dry shaved by a slightly stressed midwife with a crappy basic Bic, I would, with hindsight, have gone for a nice wax beforehand.

CS healing is bad enough without oh-my-fucking-god-thats-itchy pubes growing back!

IneedAsockamnesty Sat 19-Oct-13 00:26:07

Why exactly is this thread depressing to you?

Its entitled the midwife won't give two hoots, most posters have agreed that they won't

missismac Sat 19-Oct-13 00:29:27

I'm a student midwife just starting my 2nd year. This;

"They don't care to your face but they do sometimes have a good giggle behind the door..."

...is utter tripe and nonsense, at least it is at the hospital I'm placed at (big city one). I have NEVER EVER seen/heard this. Why on earth would anyone think Midwives would giggle about whether or not you've shaved? Apart from being totally unprofessional it's not of the slightest interest to us. Now covering it glitter sockreturningpixie - that would give us something to smile about, but with you, not with each other, and never behind any door. grin

zzzzz Sat 19-Oct-13 00:30:59

I've had five children and no one has ever given a damn or showed the slightest inclination to "giggle" at my nether regions.

What strange worlds you inhabit. If someone laughed at my hairy bits while treating me I'd have them removed because I'd think THEY WERE FUCKING MAD.

Adult women have pubic hair. If it gets dirty you can wash it. Post natal washing is to be encouraged.

PosyNarker Sat 19-Oct-13 00:32:24

Only on Mumsnet. Seriously. I shave my legs / pits and maintain my eyebrows / lashes.

pigsDOfly Sat 19-Oct-13 00:32:56

Well BIWI I'm in my 60s and trust me, when I was having my babies 30 plus years ago it was very much the norm to be shaved and have an enema. So if TombRaiding is in her 30s and her Mum gave birth in this country in hospital her Mum would have been through the same thing.

LegoCaltrops Sat 19-Oct-13 00:34:56

GroBags why depressing?

FWIW, I often don't shave in winter. DH doesn't care & I don't nag him to shave his beard much. We both have sensitive skin. I only shave in summer so I can wear skirts TBH.

Shaky Sat 19-Oct-13 00:40:12

I am a midwife and I can categorically say that I do NOT give a shiny shite about the length of a woman's pubic hair.

Midwives DO NOT snigger behind doors about their patients, that would be uncouth, unprofessional and downright bloody rude.

I remember trying to shave my legs at 37 wks pregnant, it was like a scene from Texas Chainsaw Massacre.

Ericaequites Sat 19-Oct-13 03:39:21

Midwives and nurses have seen many, many muffs. If you are well washed, they don't care. They have seen everything.

KarmaBiatch Sat 19-Oct-13 03:52:54

I am currently in the throes of early labour, and decided to have a bath earlier and give myself a wee trim with the razor.. ended up slicing a haemorrhoid i didn't know had appeared. Oh my poor bleedy bottom, it is currently sorer than the contractions, and so very not worth it!

ZuluWarrior Sat 19-Oct-13 03:59:13

I am an an anaesthetist, so have been at hundreds of births in theatre. I have never seen anyone take notice of the amount of pubes let alone have a secret giggle about them. It simply does not register with anybody.

I didn't trim or shave with any of my 3. I couldn't see my bikini line and it was the last thing on my mind!

ipswichwitch Sat 19-Oct-13 05:00:11

I'm 32 weeks now and since I can't see my bikini line I've decided I don't have to give a crap about it. There is no way in hell I would ever let DH loose with a razor either. Can't even reach my calves anymore so I'm now more yeti than aspiring bikini model (dammit!)

My mam got the shave and enema experience too (I'm 36), which she told me that'd thankfully stopped doing in our area by the time she had DBro.

ElleBelly Sat 19-Oct-13 05:40:48

I am a nurse, and for several years worked on a gynae ward and clinics. In all that time there was never any giggling or commenting on anyone's pubic topiary or fanny. Never ever. I find it very difficult to believe that any healthcare professionals would give two shits, and certainly wouldn't be giggling together about it.
The only time I did have a smile to myself was when a patient came in with a mobile phone up her bajingo. Even then we didn't giggle about it together.

ElleBelly Sat 19-Oct-13 05:42:10

I did attempt to trim mine before Dd though without being able to see it, and left odd patches. I looked like I had mange.

GrandstandingBlueTit Sat 19-Oct-13 06:39:21

I remember Catgirl posting that she had a trainee midwife friend who used to regale them with tales of untended bushes.

I suspect most midwives don't care - they will have seen everything and then some. But I suppose there probably is a small minority who do have a bit of a snigger behind closed doors.

I am sure once past the trainee stage and when you're seeing more fanjos than having hot dinners, the novelty of encountering full bushes probably wears off, and isn't worth sniggering over any more. Or not.

I mean let's face it, full bushes are hilarious.... hmm

catgirl1976 Sat 19-Oct-13 06:49:25

Trainee midwife friend is no longer a trainee midwife

Which is for the best as she clearly wasn't suited to working in healthcare / seeing people's bodies.

chanie44 Sat 19-Oct-13 07:11:08

I didn't trim before I went into labour.

I ended up having an emergency caesarean under a general anaesthetic.

I remember being in surgery and I was awake, but paralysed. The dr says 'shall I shave her, she's really hairy'. Other dr says 'no i will'.

Oh the shame, how I wished the ground would swallow me up.

Lj8893 Sat 19-Oct-13 07:19:42

I gave up shaving my bikini line at about 20 weeks!!

At 39 weeks I am still giving it a bit of a blind trim, but that's purely for comfort and not for vanity.

I can just about still manage to shave my lower legs, again for comfort.

TEErickOrTEEreat Sat 19-Oct-13 07:26:39

I swear I wasn't shaved for my CS, which was planned for health reasons.

Could I have completely forgotten?!?! It was only 4 years ago!

MollyWhuppie Sat 19-Oct-13 07:29:30

As others have said, if you end up needing a c-section, you will need to be shaved, and personally I think it's preferable to have done it yourself beforehand rather than have the midwife attack you with a dry Bic razor!

MollyWhuppie Sat 19-Oct-13 07:36:32

When I was about to go in for my section the midwives were discussing shaving me, then they had a look and said 'it's ok we don't need to do it, she's already nice and tidy'! So I'm glad I went in groomed!

grobagsforever Sat 19-Oct-13 07:36:39

It depresses me that there are a number of women who clearly feel their pubic hair is 'untidy'. How can.hair be untidy? It's women worryingly about a patrichal societies' notion of beauty/gromming whilst they are giving bloody birth!! Even if its a minority of women, its still very sad.

TheWazzock Sat 19-Oct-13 07:37:25

I went at mine with DH's beard trimmer. Not for anybody else's benefit but because I know how uncomfortable I feel having long pubes when I'm on my period so I thought it would be easier to deal with lochia if my bush was under control. I'm glad I did smile

TEErickOrTEEreat Sat 19-Oct-13 07:40:48

It depresses me that other people get depressed about other people's decisions about their body hair or anything else that is no one else's business.

TEErickOrTEEreat Sat 19-Oct-13 07:41:48

And if hair is never untidy why do we brush, comb, style, cut the hair on our heads?

blackteaplease Sat 19-Oct-13 07:43:33

I have had 2 sections. One planned, one emergency and wasn't shaved for either. My cut is above my bikini line. And for the elcs the paperwork beforehand said not to shave as it increases infection risk.

Tyranasaurus Sat 19-Oct-13 07:44:28

This reminds me of when I was in labour. The midwife had been examining me and we'd been chatting about whether or not she thought the baby had hair. The male doctor comes in to examine me and the midwife says to him, 'What do you think, bald?' He gives us a really funny look and doesn't say anything. It's only after he left that I realised he thought we were soliciting his opinion on future pubic hair dos smile

PoppyAmex Sat 19-Oct-13 07:53:48

Do what you're comfortable with and i doubt anyone will be laughing at pubic hair (unless they're 12)

I waxed a week before my csection (not because of HCPs) but because i beber shave and really didn't want a dry bic razor in theatre! Also, like someone said up thread lochia+hair= yuck.

SHarri13 Sat 19-Oct-13 07:56:22

I can say, from experience that HCPs do not care. I used to be more disturbed when there was not a hair in sight.

I just took the top edge down a bit in case I needed a C section, which I did, but tbh if there's an emergency and they're having to whip them out pronto, I really don't think anyone's going to be that fussed!

Walkacrossthesand Sat 19-Oct-13 08:03:22

When I had my babies, 20-25 years ago, the previous practice of insisting on shaving women in early labour was seen as humiliating and un-necessary, a manifestation of 'old fashioned' controlling male-dominated obstetrics. How ironic that now it's women with a full 'bush' that are the topic of conversation!

spongebob13 Sat 19-Oct-13 08:59:29

i would for the simple reason that IF you needed a section (please god you wont) they will mutilate you with a cheap ass razor. I got dp to do it was an elective and she actually asked the day before, I showed her said dp did a good job. if he hadn't she was gonna do it.

Jackanory1978 Sat 19-Oct-13 09:07:26

Sorry I don't want to sound mean but having actually worked on many labour wards I can tell you the doctors & midwives DO notice.

It makes my job easier (applying forceps, suturing etc) if there's minimal pubic hair.

Thants Sat 19-Oct-13 09:10:56

Obviously she won't care! It's shocking that sexual, vaginal grooming has become so important and prevalent that women are worrying about it when in labour.

HolidayArmadillo Sat 19-Oct-13 09:12:10

Another midwife here who would barely notice the state of your pubage. Although the poor woman who accidentally got her pubic hair clamped in a spencer wells clamp along with the cord as I tried to deliver the placenta as a student probably wished she'd had a trim beforehand. I blushed for days after that.

MatryoshkaDoll Sat 19-Oct-13 09:17:35

Very naive question that just occurred to me. Midwives: does an absence of pubes make it easier? Or is there no difference?

TondelayoSchwarzkopf Sat 19-Oct-13 09:17:42

I am a feminist. I get what grobag is saying. There is pressure on women to 'groom' their pubic hair - and that pressure doesn't exist for men.

However, I also feel very uncomfortable with full pubes - I find them unattractive, wiry, itchy and messy. I find it easier to wash with less hair. It's my personal preference, though I recognise I haven't made that decision in a vacuum.

Nobody (apart from chatty mummy hmm ) has said that HCPs care about pubic hair arrangements - but some people have had said their own preference. I don't think women should be criticised for removing their hair any more than keeping it. It's their bodies. Also nature is very much over-rated.

Spaulding Sat 19-Oct-13 09:19:22

They won't give a damn .. I couldn't see down there.. Ended up having an emergency section.. In the midst of all the hullabaloo I heard the electric razor down there ... Saved me the job... Joke!!!

I wish they'd used an electric razor on me! I also had an emergency c-section, and before I went in, one of the midwives pulled out a disposable square metal razor from a packet. Just a very sharp square-shaped piece of metal. Near my bits. I was ever so slightly nervous she might end up slipping and performing an accidental section right there and then. grin

TondelayoSchwarzkopf Sat 19-Oct-13 09:19:59

X-post with Jackanory - although at my hospital they say they don't care and if it gets in the way presumably a quick shave will solve the problem.

GrandstandingBlueTit Sat 19-Oct-13 09:23:04

For both pregnancies, by the time I was in labour, l let things go completely and definitely felt awkward about it during labour.

It's ridiculous the amount of pressure on women to de-hair.

Beastofburden Sat 19-Oct-13 09:23:43

I had all mine between 17 and 21 years ago and in those days it was very rare to shave or wax the bikini line. You only did the bits that showed outside your swimsuit, if at all, hence the name. And you didnt trim the rest at all. If I had gone in bald they would have thought I was a prostitute.

gasman Sat 19-Oct-13 09:25:04

Another anaesthetist. We really don't give a flying fuck what your pubic hair looks like.

If you end up having a section you will get clipped (not shaved) over the wound area. The days of crappy bic razors are gone - but from a patient perspective you might not notice the difference!

I might (at a push) notice if you've had a pedicure and use it as something to talk to you about when you are in theatre.... anaesthetic patter to alleviate nerves/ anxiety can get a bit samey (car seats/ nesting/ other children) so the colour of nail varnish can liven my day up. Shallow. Me. Never.

nosleeptillbedtime Sat 19-Oct-13 09:35:24

This thread has made me OMG. I am sooo glad I am 40. All this nonsense about pubes seems to be a younger woman thing I have been blessedly spared. The idea that women would care about the aesthetics of their genital area at birth I find astonishing. The idea that people think their genital area needs any cosmetic enhancement at any time I find astonishing. I really do.

GobblersKnob Sat 19-Oct-13 09:41:03

Totally agree with nosleep (and others who have expressed similar sentiments) I don't do anything to mine whatsoever.

nosleeptillbedtime Sat 19-Oct-13 09:41:53

Those posters who say hcp do notice hair: it seems clear from the comments that they only notice in terms of whether the hair is getting in the way of a procedure. They don't give a stuff about the aesthetic quality, so no need for the labouring woman to blush if she hears such a comment.

Bue Sat 19-Oct-13 10:10:59

Matryoshka there is no difference. The only time it might affect things is if stitches or a Caesarean are required, and there is a LOT of hair. I did once mistake a very bushy muff for the baby's hairy head crowning hmm blush She was in an all fours position and it was very hard to see what was going on!

GrandstandingBlueTit Sat 19-Oct-13 10:17:38

Well, I'm virtually 40 and I worried about it during labour, but only because I've been around here long enough to know that society's prevailing attitude towards women's body hair is that even more of it needs to be routinely removed.

Other over 40s are maybe luckily oblivious to it.

5madthings Sat 19-Oct-13 10:21:24

i didnt give a shit what the midwife thought as i said earlier i trimmed as it made post natal bleeding easier to deal with.

i have very heavy periods and trimmed for the same reason when not pregnant, matted, bloody pubes are not nice to deal with.

mycatlikestwiglets Sat 19-Oct-13 10:24:22

When I had DS the midwife expressed surprise that I had shaved - she was all ready with the bic to prepare me for a possible EMCS and put it away when she realised it wasn't required. That was less than 3 years ago so I guess well-tamed lady gardens aren't as common as you might think.

fuckwittery Sat 19-Oct-13 10:26:40

I trimmed as I hate feeling all sweaty and sticky with long pubes and I the idea of matter post birth bloody hair, or not being able to trim for ages post stitches was yuck. And to obveiate need for tiprim by medical staff incase of emcs. But main reasons for personal comfort not aesthetics. Baby came early and I missed my pre birth pedicure, now I have to have my baby moon with manky toes - offending my own vanity, didnt give a toss the mw's saw peeling nail varnish, and I had hairy armpits!

Karma ouch! Hope the labour kicks off so you don't notice your pile pain!

silverten Sat 19-Oct-13 10:31:33

Well I never bother and would be deeply, deeply unimpressed at any HCP who had a problem with it.

I'm an adult woman, not a child or a porn star.

And when I had stitches with DD they were nowhere near the hair.

Lochia is grim but really you need to be washing after every toilet visit post-delivery if you want to help yourself heal up well. And obviously that will make examinations more pleasant for everyone anyway.

My mum is 69. She definitely had the shave/enema stuff going on when she had me and later my bro. And was at pains to let me know this would happen when I was pg with DC1.

The nearest I got was a shave from a student midwife above the bikini line as I was having a CS first thing the following morning. I was entirely natural second time around, and as it was VBAC, there was no pressure to be "tidy". So mum was a bit miffed I didn't have to shave completely or have an enema.

The only thing I do think, if I ever had another, would be to trim, not shave. And just for keeping clean and dealing with the lochia afterwards.

Bunbaker Sat 19-Oct-13 10:36:15

£At 39 weeks I am still giving it a bit of a blind trim, but that's purely for comfort and not for vanity. I can just about still manage to shave my lower legs, again for comfort."

How is being hairy in any way uncomfortable?

"I find them unattractive, wiry, itchy and messy."

I find the shaved/waxed feeling uncomfortable and itchy, plus I get ingrown hairs which looks awful.

I agree with grobag, nosleep and gobblers. It isn't as if your nether regions are on public display. I worry that DD (13) is going to be pressurised to be more high maintenance than us older women.

JenaiMorris Sat 19-Oct-13 10:40:55

I was reassured that my pubic hair would regrow and cover my cs scar (which of course it didn't - my pubes don't go that high up my belly).

How times change.

What on earth has happened that people think a bare pudenda is a required standard of personal care, akin to cleaning your teeth?

BruthasTortoise Sat 19-Oct-13 10:44:25

I am so glad that I'm done having children. I am actually mortified at the though that the midwives who delivered my kids would've be laughing at me. Also have to say that I don't go for smears or go swimming because I have incredibly sensitive skin and can't do anything with my pubic area as I get incredibly painful rashes and this thread has confirmed that I would be facing incredible judgement about the state of it all.

Bunbaker Sat 19-Oct-13 10:47:25

You really should get regular smears you know. I read in the local paper yesterday that our area has a much higher than average incidence of cervical cancer. That in itself would give me the impetus to get checked out.

5madthings Sat 19-Oct-13 10:47:43

silverten i used a jug of water to pour over myself everytime i went to the toilet and washed but it still would have been grim had my pubes been long. it used to be bad enough with just heavy periods.

plus i get eczema, including at the top of my bikini line and on the top of my 'mound' iykwim? and that is better if i keep my pubic hair trimmed. i have never shaved them, but trim.

5madthings Sat 19-Oct-13 10:48:24

silverten i used a jug of water to pour over myself everytime i went to the toilet and washed but it still would have been grim had my pubes been long. it used to be bad enough with just heavy periods.

plus i get eczema, including at the top of my bikini line and on the top of my 'mound' iykwim? and that is better if i keep my pubic hair trimmed. i have never shaved them, but trim.

Bunbaker Sat 19-Oct-13 10:53:04

silverten the midwife advised me to use the bidet in the hospital when going for a wee, and the shower at home. It worked a treat.

Writerwannabe83 Sat 19-Oct-13 10:56:19

I'm only 17 weeks pregnant and already worrying about this issue. Personally I find pubes a bit grim - I certainly don't go bald but I do keep things very tidy and minimal. I just feel really uncomfortable if I'm 'unkempt', just hairy and horrible. I also do it for sex reasons, in my opinion au natural pubic hair isn't very nice to look at and I certainly wouldn't want to think of my husband having to come face to face with my genitals if they weren't shaved to some degree. I certainly wouldn't want a mouthful of his pubes so I'm pretty sure he wouldn't want a mouthful of mine either smile

I don't how I will overcome the issue when I get much bigger! I'm not sure I like the idea of my hubby doing it I envisage it being a blood bath... hmm

Beastofburden Sat 19-Oct-13 10:56:49

brithas Are you nuts? I can assure you that I have regular smears and nobody laughs at me. Apart from anything else, it's under a blanket. Cancer is no joke, have your smears.

5madthings Sat 19-Oct-13 10:58:44

the hospital where i had ds1 had a bidet which i used. by the time i had the next four it was at the new hospital and they didnt have bidets.

didnt have a shower in the houses we had the first three at. just those crappy attach to the taps thingies.

but massive hastle having a shower each time yoy need a wee, for me anyway as my eczema means mousturising and using emollients when i shower and then i have to wait for it to soak in before i get dressed...

a jug of warm water worked fine to stop stinging and freshen up etc.

yes there is more pressure in young people than ever before re pubes etc but many of us choose to trim purely for practical/comfort reasons.

flippinada Sat 19-Oct-13 10:59:19

Haven't read all the posts but I know a midwife and no, they don't care! Don't worry about it and good luck for your induction smile.

thebody Sat 19-Oct-13 11:02:10

of course she won't care too hoots.

as for laughing behind your back!!!

trust me there's far far funnier things occurring in hospitals than a few pubes.

Nanny0gg Sat 19-Oct-13 11:02:34

And 20 years ago my mum convinced me they shaved you as well she also jibbed on with some rubbish about enemas, frightened the life out of me when I had the eldest sock returner COW.

I think I broke the land speed record when they did that to me thirty years ago...

You lot have it easy nowadays...

(Ducks and runs)

Strumpetron Sat 19-Oct-13 11:06:34

It's completely up to you! It might be advisable to give them a trim incase you need stitches. Don't worry about it, hope all goes well

Bunbaker Sat 19-Oct-13 11:09:15

"Personally I find pubes a bit grim - I certainly don't go bald but I do keep things very tidy and minimal. I just feel really uncomfortable if I'm 'unkempt', just hairy and horrible.. in my opinion au natural pubic hair isn't very nice to look at"

^ these are the sort of comments that I find depressing. Where do people get these views from? What influences them to think that looking artificial is the only way?

TondelayoSchwarzkopf Sat 19-Oct-13 11:10:36

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Writerwannabe83 Sat 19-Oct-13 11:11:13

How is it any difference to getting our hair cut or plucking our eyebrows or shaving our legs?? Hair control is hair control. Why should we care less just because it is our pubic hair?

TondelayoSchwarzkopf Sat 19-Oct-13 11:14:09

Exactly writer - I mean, I cut my nails for hygiene and comfort reasons- and they are just natural keratin - what's the difference with pubes?

oldgrandmama Sat 19-Oct-13 11:14:37

No, according to my daughter and my daughter in law, there's no need to remove your bush these enlightened times. When I gave birth (in 1968 and 1970) a shave was compulsory and done by the hospital, along with an enema. AND, my first birth, an episiotomy was none negotiable - EVERYONE got sliced, for the midwives' convenience so things would move quickly. And they were pretty handy with inducing birth, so that deliveries could be pretty well in 'office hours'.

Thank god times have changed.

Bunbaker Sat 19-Oct-13 11:20:53

"catching against pants material when you're walking, getting caught in your jeans zip, catching clots of period blood and locchia (no I don't have a shower or bath after every piss) not to mention thrush - a particularly attractive side effect of being pregnant."

Never had any of those problems. Maybe you are much more hirsuit than me. Besides, I wear pants under my jeans, and not Bridget Jones ones either grin

"How is it any difference to getting our hair cut or plucking our eyebrows or shaving our legs?? Hair control is hair control. Why should we care less just because it is our pubic hair?"

Because they are on public display all the time.

sleepyhead Sat 19-Oct-13 11:22:44

I didn't trim with ds2 and the midwife did comment that she'd need to take off a bit of hair to stitch the tear.

However this was said in a completely matter of fact no-judgement sort of way.

Lets face it, she'd had her hand up my fanjo an hour earlier. A bit late to be blush about someone commenting on removing some pubes.

Anyway, how's a midwife doing a wee trim if required any more mortifying than a beautician getting an eyeful of your purple pregnancy labia? Both have presumably seen all sorts in their time.

BruthasTortoise Sat 19-Oct-13 11:23:59

I am serious - there's near 150 posts here and the vast majority are from reasonable woman saying that pubic hair in the state mine is in disgusts them. It follows that the nurses that do smear most likely would find it disgusting and I, with my already completely non- existent body confidence, couldn't cope with that. I'm not saying I'm right but that's how I feel.

heartichoke Sat 19-Oct-13 11:25:16

I agree with grobags and all the other shaving refuseniks that this is deeply depressing.

All the shavers and trimmers sound completely INSANE to me. It weirds me out that ANYONE would find completely normal and healthy pubic hair worthy of comment or 'giggling'. In fact it just horrifies me that removing pubic hair has become the social norm at all.

Why are women trying to make their cunts look as if they belong to pre-pubescent children? It's not right...

Why are heavily pregnant women prepared to mutilate themselves with cut labia and chemical burns to achieve this 'look'.... WTF is THAT all about?

Surely we should just stop this madness. If men do not like the look of an unshaved fanjo (which is NOT unhygienic in any way), shouldn't we tell them to take a running jump and stop perving over exploitative porn?

We shouldn't be letting ourselves get sucked in by the image that's been generated by the porn-purveyors that are rubbing their hands/dicks all the way to the bank?

The answer - just don't DO IT!!!!

Bunbaker Sat 19-Oct-13 11:28:29

Excellent post heartichoke.

"It follows that the nurses that do smear most likely would find it disgusting"

Bruthas that isn't my impression at all. Of all the professionals that have posted on here nearly all of them have said that they couldn't give two hoots.

Writerwannabe83 Sat 19-Oct-13 11:29:27

bunbaker - so you are saying we should preen ourselves if the areas are on display I.e we should do it because we shouldn't expose others to our natural body hair?

Why can't we keep our pubes tidy because we want to do it for ourselves? I don't do any 'preening' purely for the sake of others, but because I like to comfortable and happy within myself and that includes trimming my public area. Also, that area is on my display to my husband quite frequently or is he not as important as Joe public?? grin

Mid you, even when I haven't been sexually active in the past I still always keep myself trim and tidy because that's just what I like as my own personal taste, and that is what matters at the end of the day. There is no right or wrong about pubic hair upkeep but everyone has different views and people will just do what they feel comfortable with.

Bunbaker Sat 19-Oct-13 11:32:47

No, I'm not. I just don't think there is a direct comparison between keeping private and public parts of the body tidy and groomed and was justifying why most women who shave their legs may not extend their grooming elsewhere.

heartichoke Sat 19-Oct-13 11:35:12

But writerwannabe, what is it that determines that you want to do it 'for yourself'? Why are you only 'happy with' yourself when you trim your pubes?

It's because it makes us comfortable to conform to what are considered society's 'norms'. As humans, we are social creatures, and we don't want to stand out, so we adjust our thinking of what's right to fit with what we perceive to be 'normal' in our society.

Instead, in this case, we should be examining very closely WHERE this norm is coming from, rather than conforming to it blindly.

fluffyraggies Sat 19-Oct-13 11:37:16

Still doing mine at 26 weeks. I lay on my back on a towel on the bed. Been doing it so long i don't need to see grin

More concerned about my feet! I like to Ped-Egg my heels at least once a week and keep my nails polished nicely and i've been having problems getting down to them. Contorting myself to do my feet has proved harder than shaving the fanjo.

Writerwannabe83 Sat 19-Oct-13 11:37:30

I'm just grateful that I'm very fair so can get away with not shaving my legs perhaps as often they need doing grin Leg shaving has to be the most ball-achey form of shaving....why do knee areas have to be so difficult? smile

I had to go to A&E a few months ago and the Doctors needed access to my legs which I hadn't shaved for some time - I was mortified! I tried to make a joke out of it but it failed miserably. I'm pretty sure they didn't care but I still felt blush

Writerwannabe83 Sat 19-Oct-13 11:41:24

heartichoke - I just don't find wild pubic hair attractive to look at. And like others have said, for practical reasons it is just easier when the area is kept tidy, especially during periods. I stand by my reasons in terms of my sex life too smile

It's no difference to me not liking it when my hubby goes through phases of growing a beard - I just think it looks untidy. Something's just look better when there is less hair on them smile

Beastofburden Sat 19-Oct-13 11:41:49

bruthas young women who are in the habit of grooming are saying that they are in the habit of grooming so it feels weird to stop.

Older women like me who have never groomed in our lives are keeping stumm as it feels like TMI.

All the professionals are saying they couldn't give a flying fuck.

And anyone who has had cancer is going to tell you that even if you have a bad half hour from irrational fears doing it, body confidence issues are trivial compared to dying from cancer. We can all be sympathetic to irrational fear and low self esteem, but sometimes we are not doing you any favours by saying, ooh, yes, that's a valid reason for not getting checked out. It's not. I faint at the sight of blood. In my GP surgery I am known as "the lady who can faint lying down". I still have the tests done that I have to.

W may nt be able to persuade you that all professionals don't care. Your body confidence issues are irrational anyway, we understand that. You have to man up and do it anyway.

TondelayoSchwarzkopf Sat 19-Oct-13 11:42:48

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Bunbaker Sat 19-Oct-13 11:44:28

Sorry, that remark was uncalled for. I apologise.

JenaiMorris Sat 19-Oct-13 11:52:53

Wah! Lost a post. I'll try again...

I cannot believe that shaved pubic areas are more hygienic than clean, fluffy muffs.

I'm with this woman

Writerwannabe83 Sat 19-Oct-13 11:54:02

But don't fluffy muffs get sweaty?? grin

heartichoke Sat 19-Oct-13 11:54:38

writerwannabe What worries me, though, is that what we 'find attractive' is largely dictated by what is considered attractive by society in general. eg in Georgian times, rounded faces and curvy bodies with slightly chinless looks were considered GORGEOUS, and in medieval times hairlines were plucked to give high foreheads that today would be considered very odd-looking!

The reason that shaved pubes have - over the past 15-20 years - become 'the norm' and thus considered 'attractive' is because of the increasing instant availability of porn where women are shaved to make sure that they present more of an eyeful to the audience, while simulating very young children's genitals.

I'm really not convinced that this is a healthy origin for a norm in our society.

heartichoke Sat 19-Oct-13 11:55:58

And my fluffy muff has never been particularly sweaty - obviously in line with modern mores, I bathe and shower regularly smile

BrianWont Sat 19-Oct-13 11:56:55

Pubic topiary is about to jump the shark. In five years' time, all these women banging on about how it's more comfortable, oh it's tidier, it's cleaner and my hubby likes it - they'll all be back to ignoring their pubic hair like everyone used to (and most of us still do).

Beastofburden Sat 19-Oct-13 11:57:48

I am actually really concerned by Bruthas post and also by the idea that pubes need to be shaved to give birth.

I am too old to share this specific grooming norm, but be assured it will come and go and your DDs will have something else to obsess about that you all find odd.

But if it interferes with medical care, then that is a serious problem.

Writerwannabe83 Sat 19-Oct-13 12:02:28

I agree with the confusion about why some people choose to go completely bald - I have come across 3 people in my past who have completely shaved off all their pubic hair and I found it really, really off putting because as has been said, it made me think of pre-pubescent teenagers. I felt very uncomfortable looking at them naked and I found it difficult to completely relax during sex - the image of their bald genital areas never seemed to be able to leave the back of my mind.

I do keep my area trim but I would never completely shave it all off because I think all men and women look better with some than none. I said before that I'm fair haired so I'm lucky that I don't have to remove much to make it look aesthetically pleasing (to me anyway) but it is more just the length that I keep on top of smile

gordyslovesheep Sat 19-Oct-13 12:03:50

erm I 'rock a 70's vibe' pube wise - I am never especially sweaty - but then I bath or shower every day - I can not be bothered with the faff and the regrowth and the ingrown hairs and the cold grin

5madthings Sat 19-Oct-13 12:04:00

trimming my pubes does not make me look pre pubesent, believe me i still have a good covering of hair, i just keep.it short say a cm or less? it stops it poking out of knickers or swimming costume. is better for dealing with heavy periods and with eczema.

tbh i dont always shave my legs or armpits, when i do shave my legs i only do up to my knees as i am.not that hairy.

as i said its for my personal comfort, i dont care what others do tho i would never shave my pubes, the thought of the itching/re growth sounds uncomfortable.

gordyslovesheep Sat 19-Oct-13 12:04:44

Oh meant to add - for both of my sections they only shaved the bit where they would cut - not my entire pubic area - but they did it with a fucking Bic Orange

JenaiMorris Sat 19-Oct-13 12:04:56

I've found fluffy less sweaty than bare. Maybe pubic hair wicks sweat away or something.

CoconutRing Sat 19-Oct-13 12:13:47

As a former nurse, I have witnessed some very unprofessional giggling about pubic hair, "apron" stomachs, tattoos, piercings, large breasts etc etc.

Any unusual and distinctive features do get noticed. You are being naive if you think otherwise.

Bunbaker Sat 19-Oct-13 12:16:25

Well thank you for that CoconutRing you have just made the self conscious feel even worse about themselves.

I shaved everything with contractions every 3 minutes before I would even think of going to the hospital. its a personal thing if it doesn't bother you don't shave if it does then shave. I doubt they will care either way.

AlwaysDancing1234 Sat 19-Oct-13 12:21:57

Don't do it! I was worried about this with my DS but needn't have bothered or worried. As long as you have showered/had a bath recently that's all that matters!

GuffSmuggler Sat 19-Oct-13 12:25:59

Even if the midwife did care, I couldn't give two hoots. I'm having a baby not entering a beauty contest!!

It really is the last thing you will want/be able to do when massively pregnant.

Strumpetron Sat 19-Oct-13 12:48:36

coconutring then those people shouldn't be in the profession and people shouldn't sit and listen to it.

Of course they're going to get noticed people aren't being naive, people just think people in a position of trust ie nurses and midwives shouldn't judge and most definitely shouldn't pass spiteful comments.

notundermyfoof Sat 19-Oct-13 12:51:31

Bruthas go for your smear!!!! Seriouly you're that bothered about a nurse who you will probably never see again worrying about the fact that shock ^ horror^ an adult has pubic hair that you're willing to risk your health?! I agree with all the comments that there is something wrong with the world when women feel the need to spend time and money removing their entirely natural pubes but tbh I find your post disturbing. No one cares if you have a forest down there or are completely bald but you are using it as a reason to avoid screening for cervical cancer!

I neaten myself up a bit when I can be arsed - not very often tbh and it certainly wasn't a priority when I was so heavily pregnant I couldn't see it! I've had smears when it was neat and tidy and one when it was a matted overgrown bush, no hcp has ever commented or seemed bothered either way and if they were I would be mightily pissed off at them for being so unprofessional!

Strumpetron Sat 19-Oct-13 12:51:38

And removal of pubic hair isn't a modern thing, they did it in ancient greece because they thought having hair there was 'uncivilised'.

In the middle ages it was removed to remove the risk of lice.

ElleBelly Sat 19-Oct-13 12:54:33

I have been nursing for ten years and as I said earlier I have never ever come across "giggling" about any aspect of people's bodies. And anyway, I went for my smear last week, with very hairy legs and untamed pubes.

Beastofburden Sat 19-Oct-13 13:01:29

Coconut says people notice unusual things.

Are pubes actually unusual? I get that women in a certain age bracket tend to groom them, but we old bags over 45 don't, normally. Surely,most people in hospital and having smears and so forth are older?

Giving birth, clearly,people are young.

Strumpetron Sat 19-Oct-13 13:03:10

Yeah beast its a sad state of affairs if pubes are unusual now.

jamdonut Sat 19-Oct-13 13:16:32

What is the obsession with getting rid of pubic hair anyway?

I have been known to trim, because of heavy periods, but never shave? Who, other than your partner, gets to see those bits? And who has a partner that's ever complained? Have you ever complained about a male partner's pubic hair? Nobody I ever got close enough to for them to see that area ever mentioned it.

And I have never, ever known a healthcare professional even raise an eyebrow at my unshaved bikini line.

Fair enough...I don't wear bikinis. But do people really look to see if others have hair showing???

If people really feel that to be 'as nature intended' down there is a sin ,it makes me feel that I've maybe led a very sheltered life!

PrincessFlirtyPants Sat 19-Oct-13 13:16:33

As a former nurse, I have witnessed some very unprofessional giggling about pubic hair, "apron" stomachs, tattoos, piercings, large breasts etc etc.

Any unusual and distinctive features do get noticed. You are being naive if you think otherwise.

Naive? Or maybe just expecting HCP's to do as the 'P' suggests, you know, be professional

I mean FFS, large breasts?? Are we employing 14yr old school boys to deliver babies these days?

curlew Sat 19-Oct-13 13:21:52

The hair on my head gets really sweaty and smelly when I exercise- should I shave it off?

IneedAsockamnesty Sat 19-Oct-13 13:22:31

I am serious - there's near 150 posts here and the vast majority are from reasonable woman saying that pubic hair in the state mine is in disgusts them. It follows that the nurses that do smear most likely would find it disgusting and I, with my already completely non- existent body confidence, couldn't cope with that. I'm not saying I'm right but that's how I feel

The only weird or uncomfortable thing that has ever happened to me was when the nurse started crying then disclosed DV to me and wanted me to advise her. If you are to a fairly well known DV practitioner then this is highly unlikely to happen to you. Go have a bloody smear test.

It shows how different we all are and how we see information, I've read this as the vast majority saying they agree they wouldn't care.

Dayshiftdoris Sat 19-Oct-13 13:26:55

I was a midwife and I have only ever cared about my own pubic hair grin

I wouldn't worry and we only shave top inch if going to section and they do that in theatre at the time now (newish research about reducing infection)

ZombiesAteMyCunnyFunt Sat 19-Oct-13 13:27:42

On the theme of someone's mum giving them an ante-natal trim, I know someone whose mum checked her stitches thlshock that's just a bit too close imo...

cadburyscremeleg Sat 19-Oct-13 13:30:09

I'm a practice nurse & do loads of smears.
Pubic hair doesn't even register on my radar. I've seen a few piercings & wondered privately if they're painful but would never comment to the patient or any colleagues. We've got female bodies that are essentially anatomically very similar & TBH we've not very interested in the style/length/colour of your pubes.

IneedAsockamnesty Sat 19-Oct-13 13:32:06

Oh and I also have huge boobs loads of tattoos and at no time have I ever felt anyone in the HCP thought this was odd or unusual.

My plan of action is to have a long bath late the night before as I need help to have one and that's the only time I can get the help, get up have a sink wash and then go, bags done have a good book so I won't be bored.

Dayshiftdoris Sat 19-Oct-13 13:35:24

Ooh I didn't read the whole thread but as Cadbury said really.... I wouldn't notice enough to comment to anyone else.

Have to say though Cadbury I do ask patients about their piercings if they mention them as a) I like to know, b) they are generally hugely enthusiastic about talking about them and c) I might need to know how to get one out in an emergency....
Fascinating subject smile

Writerwannabe83 Sat 19-Oct-13 13:38:36

I don't see why women are being criticised for not being as 'nature intended' and wanting to shave their pubic area but they aren't criticised because they want to shave their legs?

If the argument is given that leg shaving isn't comparable because 'legs are on public show' then it implies that women who shave their legs do it because it is the societal norm or it is what is expected - so why is bikini line preening being criticised when the the same argument is being given?

It is just a bit hypocritical to make a song and dance about how awful it is they women don't feel they can go 'natural' with their pubic hair, yet leg shaving isn't a problem.

I don't feel 'pressure to trim' - nobody knows I do it except me, my husband and any professional who has reason to be down there. I keep my pubic area tidy because I want to. I don't like having lots of hair down there, I don't think it looks nice and I don't feel clean and tidy unless I'm well kept downstairs smile

My husband also keeps himself trim and he looks better for it. And like I said, I think another reason we both do it because certain acts of sexual intercourse more pleasurable when you aren't having to pick pubes out of your teeth afterwards grin

It is a personal decision but I don't think women who do choose to shave or trim themselves should be labelled as being pressured by society or being insecure because we can't be our 'natural selves' - why can't be just do it because we have our own reasons for wanting to??

unlucky83 Sat 19-Oct-13 13:48:42

I don't shave or trim mine - never have -used to do my legs and arm pits - often now (as a 46 yo) don't bother with that either...
To be fair I'm not very hairy anyway...
I thought it was the media to blame for my 12 yo shaving her pubic hair -now having read most of this....
It makes me so sad...are we going backwards?
What is wrong with being who you are? Hairy fanny and all...

pigsDOfly Sat 19-Oct-13 13:51:33

I'd hate it if a man removed his pubic hair (quite like hair in my teeth) smile but then I'm older and I don't remove mine (will tidy up if wearing swimwear).

As far as being sweaty goes, as someone said up post. No. If you shower/bath every day why would it get any sweatier than if the hairs removed. Hopefully most people shower before having sex if they've been running around all day.

And remember part of the purpose of pubic hair is to trap the sexual pheromones so that we smell more attractive to a mate. Why would you want to get rid of that.

QueenOfKings Sat 19-Oct-13 13:59:02

I didn't shave before labour but then im not particularly hairy in that department anyway even when left alone. I do at other times though, I started trimming it right back and shaving the underneath part at 15 because of personal preference and carried it on into my adult life im nearly 30 now. Last year I decided to go a bit further and just leave a strip I prefer that now I have tried it all off and didn't like it so leave that tiny bit. The reason for it is for me I feel cleaner when on my period, its more sensitive during sex and I can see what going on better, I personally find it looks sexually more appealing on others as well so obviously its a turn on, I think what other people do with theirs is completely up to them, I do think its massively offensive to compare the preference to pre pubescent children though!

now If only I could stop the shaving rash I would be a lot happier!

Alibabaandthe40nappies Sat 19-Oct-13 14:04:25

The last time there was a thread like this someone who was a nurse or a midwife was all 'OMG it is unusual to see a full bush, I am always really surprised and find it gross'. Which is possibly the most unprofessional thing ever.

Alibabaandthe40nappies Sat 19-Oct-13 14:06:50

But I do object massively to the phrase 'tidy' when applied to a trimmed/waxed/shaved pubic area.

There is nothing inherently 'untidy' about body hair, it is just a question of whether you choose to remove it or not.

Coffeenowplease Sat 19-Oct-13 14:17:04

I've never had full pubic hair. Dont like it. Dont like hairy men either though.

I read threads like this and I always have one question, I've always shaved. I am also very short sighted, so when in the shower without glasses on I've also never been able to see what I'm shaving so have always done it by feel.

Is this unusual ? So many people always come on to say they dont shave when pg because they cant see it and I always think confused.

zzzzz Sat 19-Oct-13 14:25:44

I still don't get what IS funny about pubic hair???

It's like finding long hair funny. Where's the joke?

As for laughing at big breasts and apron stomachs, come on. angry.

This is total bull shit.

I have all of the above AND have spent an inordinate amount of time in hospital. I have an overtly disabled child and a radar for sniggering so fine tuned I can spot it a mile away and I have NEVER been ridiculed or made a figure of fun for any of the above differences.

SaucyJack Sat 19-Oct-13 14:26:21

Coffee

It's not just that you can't see it, but you can't bend in half to reach it either when that pregnant. I'm struggling now at 21 weeks.

I will be going in au naturel too OP. Any midwife who is bothered by the sight of pubic hair is in the wrong job.

IneedAsockamnesty Sat 19-Oct-13 14:32:44

For me the can't see it thing is because its different now, its swollen and rather well for want of a better word bulgy,I just know I would do myself a mischief

Coffeenowplease Sat 19-Oct-13 14:33:30

I did think that saucy but a lot of the posts just mentioned seeing not bending so I did wonder.

Question answered I guess.

Kikithecat Sat 19-Oct-13 14:34:39

I've read loads of pubes v no pubee threads here but this takes the <biscuit>! While I am strictly au naturel I don't care if others want to go naked but, my god, the idea that there's now some sort of unwritten law that you can't have pubes or that health workers would be shocked by a full bush is unbelievable!

Coffeenowplease Sat 19-Oct-13 14:34:48

Ah. Have not experienced being pg so this is uncharted territory for me !

dementedma Sat 19-Oct-13 14:40:04

Have had 3 Dcs and never occurred to me to do my pubes.....oh dear!

mervynmouse Sat 19-Oct-13 14:44:26

My midwife complained that the amount of fuzz I was sporting made it difficult to do the stitching. I tried not to take it personally grin

halfwildlingwoman Sat 19-Oct-13 14:46:41

I had an EMCS for my first child and the MW shaved the top of my pubes with a dry razor. I had an elective for my second and the MW said "Did you manage to shave at all?" I didn't realise it was expected so I just said that I couldn't reach, but I'd trimmed a bit. But hair hadn't really grown near the CS scar and they used the same incision, so I don't see how it would have helped. I may be really clueless about female anatomy, but how does it make it easier to stitch you if you're hairless? The area they're stitching wouldn't have hair anyway?
And, maybe I shouldn't comment, as I've never tried it, but for much the same reason I don't see why oral sex would be better with shaved pubes. I mean, the area they are, ahem, focusing on, isn't hairy.

silverten Sat 19-Oct-13 15:01:11

I removed it once, years ago, and found that quite apart from the itchy regrowth, the chafing was awful. We clearly aren't supposed to mess about with it too much, if we don't want to get all sore.....

A flannel and a bidet worked nicely for me after DD was born. No yukky sweatiness from lounging around in bed all day!

Fakebook Sat 19-Oct-13 15:06:47

I've always removed hair, so it wasn't done especially for the midwives and doctors (and the stupid porter who walked in with the crash cart and got an eyeful angry) the first time.

The second time, I made sure I was removing it more regularly because I remember how heavy my lochia was the first few days and that sweaty feeling of blood being squeezed out with every breast feed. Bleugh.

I'm doing the same again this time. Also had a scare yesterday that I might have started labour so booked an emergency appointment to get my eyebrows done this morning.

I remember watching a Gok Wan programme once in which a make up artist (I think) said a woman with unkempt eyebrows probably has unkempt pubes too. I don't know why, but I can't remove that correlation from my head now. It's been a good 8 or 9 years too.

zzzzz Sat 19-Oct-13 15:13:28

"I remember watching a Gok Wan programme once in which a make up artist (I think) said a woman with unkempt eyebrows probably has unkempt pubes too. I don't know why, but I can't remove that correlation from my head now. It's been a good 8 or 9 years too."

Well he'd be right in my case. My eyebrows are just fine as they came too! hmm

Writerwannabe83 Sat 19-Oct-13 15:18:27

grin @ fakebook - your post about Gok Wan made me laugh!!
I always pluck my eyebrows but do treat myself to a wax every now and then. My sister has eyebrows that tend to get out of control at times so it regularly getting them waxed....and now, thanks to you, my mind can't stop thinking about her bikini line!! Haha. grin

PrincessFlirtyPants Sat 19-Oct-13 15:18:51

He'd be wrong in my case. I last waxed my eyebrows in June but I shave weekly.

Fakebook Sat 19-Oct-13 15:23:38

Zzzzz, I'm sure your eyebrows are naturally beautifully shaped. wink.

Writer, sorry grin

Lj8893 Sat 19-Oct-13 15:50:57

He would be wrong in my case!

My eyebrows are always perfectly groomed, I'm abit obsessive about them!

My pubes......not so much!

curlew Sat 19-Oct-13 15:51:57

I hate the language people use. Tidy. Clean. Neat. Yeti. Messy.

You do all realize that this is all completely new thinking, and informed by the porn industry, don't you? Women in porn have always removed their pubic hair so as not the block the view.

Is anyone old enough to remember Princess Diana talking about havering a feeling of destiny and keeping herself "tidy" (ie virginal) for what was to come.

Strumpetron Sat 19-Oct-13 15:56:17

It's not new thinking though, people have done it for hundreds of years. Obviously not to the extent of now, but modern inventions have made it easier.

Why do people think it's acceptable to shave ones legs but god forbid they shave their fanny - they've been brainwashed by the porn industry hmm

TondelayoSchwarzkopf Sat 19-Oct-13 15:57:31

Apology accepted Bunbaker I have requested my posts be removed because in hindsight I feel it's a bit 'over-sharing' / TMI smile

My comments about body hair only relate to my own and not other people's so I am sorry some people are taking comments that way. My feelings are purely my personal preference (though socially conditioned I'm sure).

PrincessFlirtyPants Sat 19-Oct-13 16:01:07

I shave and have never watched porn so I'm confused as to how I would have been influenced...

digerd Sat 19-Oct-13 16:08:13

I do remember in the 60s being shaved immediately arriving in hospital in labour. A bath and an anenema but can't remember the order in which they were done. This was the practice then .
Not being allowed out of bed for the first 3 days after giving birth.

Don't know when that all changed.

BlackbeltinBS Sat 19-Oct-13 16:09:50

I had an emergency C-section and through the blur remember clearly the male midwife brandishing a Bic at me and saying, "Now are we going to have to shave you?" (to which my reply was - I've no idea, I've never had a baby before, and I haven't been able to see what's going on down there for weeks). Itchy regrowth around scar not my favourite experience. Second time round (ELCS) I went for a wax a few days before largely to take off the top part they were going to have to shave - only this time round they wanted it all off for the section, so they Bic'd the lower half anyway.

notthefirstagainstthewall Sat 19-Oct-13 16:10:07

*Why do people think it's acceptable to shave ones legs but god forbid they shave their fanny - they've been brainwashed by the porn industry hmm

Because it is all brain washing.

So 20 years ago a well plucked arch eyebrow was essential. Now it's a sign you are old and it's a thick line over each eye is essential. Same with bushes. Seeing a grainy expanse of funny coloured skin with some flappy bits of skin hanging out looks no better than a curly triangle of pubes actually. It's fashion based on people thinking their untidy or unsexy if they don't make the effort. I hate blokes with shaved pubes, it's looks so unsexy and try hard and the same goes for women old enough to know better.Yes, it's OK to look like a pornstar when you're 20 but then grow out off it.

digerd Sat 19-Oct-13 16:16:29

A 'V' shaped high pointed eyebrow, now reveals an overdose of Botox grin. They call it ' Spock' eyebrows.

PrincessFlirtyPants Sat 19-Oct-13 16:19:58

I think that's very judgemental notthefirstagainstthewall

Some people prefer to trim/save/wax other don't, why would you care what another woman chooses to do with her pubic hair? It's their choice.

Strumpetron Sat 19-Oct-13 16:23:33

Saying it is all brainwashing is completely ignoring the free thought of women though. I fully accept that we are influenced by the media (companies create problems that weren't there so they can sell their product) but women still have a choice. If they're common sense and KNOW that this 'brainwashing' is going on then they can make an informed choice. I made an informed choice when I wanted to have nice silky smooth legs, I like the feel of it. I like the look of it. I don't even wear dresses or skirts but still do it.

I think people should stop condemning other's choices, and let them do what they want with their own bodies instead of either saying they're wannabe pornstars or want to look like children, or on the other scale saying they're messy and untidy.

Student midwife here.

Genuinely couldn't care less and certainly don't comment to either women or colleagues. The only thing that goes through my head occasionally is 'bugger that'll itch growing back' with the completely bald women.

Personally I trimmed before labour as I do before a period, because otherwise I feel messy. My fanjo my choice, your fanjo your choice. smile

Sleeptimenow Sat 19-Oct-13 16:27:36

I'm a nurse and honestly don't really notice, my priority is hygiene to prevent infection ( most of my patients have catheters) and never found any difference with or without pubes.

I look after very sick people and if they are conscious enough I ask them for their personal hygiene preferences so I can help them feel as comfortable as possible. Regularly shave men's faces if they want and have helped women with all sorts of shaving ( have found younger women get particularly upset not being able to shave underarms). Some patients apologise for not being 'tidy' which myself and the other nurses find sad- we always say that it honestly doesn't make a difference to us, there are more important things to think about when you are ill, and if anything we can do to make them feel more 'normal' just let us know (getting family to bring in special scented moisturiser and washing and drying hair is a favourite).

To be honest you tend to find women just don't care as much when they are feeling ill so would expect the same sort of thing applies to midwives and pregnant women, not high on list of priorities. it's a personal preference issue and I would never think anyone is odd not shaving their bikini line, and it is totally unprofessional to comment on it anyway.

Personally My baby is due next week and have been keeping the area tidy but that's because I swim regularly, doing it by feel now as can't see a bloody thing, DH says it's a bit wonky but no worse than usual!

Strumpetron Sat 19-Oct-13 16:30:57

You sound lovely sleeptime

I do have to say I apologised for my pubes when I was catherterised. I was 17 then though and thought it was shameful hmm

zzzzz Sat 19-Oct-13 16:37:57

fakebook thank you. No ones ever complained! grin

GobblersKnob Sat 19-Oct-13 16:42:08

I have to admit that I find a removed bush astonishly unattractive in either sex, very 'last turkey in the shop-esque' but that is just my personal opinion, I feel a nice cushion of hair is far more fitting, but I am sure loads would not agree.

The more threads like this I read the more I am tempted to give up all hair removal, not that I do that much of it anyway, bit I am very tempted to grow my pits back in, why not? It's just hair.

I can remember being excited to get my first pubes, it was a sign that I was growing up and becoming a woman. However talking to several young women friends in their very early twenties (am currently doing a degree) they report all being terrified when they first grew pubes and instantly shaved them off from the word go, all of them hate the idea of hair there and say there is no way they would ever let a boyfriend see them in anything but a fully shaven state for fear of his reaction, be it disgust or ridicule.

I cannot express how much I do not want this for my daughter sad.

Strumpetron Sat 19-Oct-13 16:48:10

DP is ashamed of his hair and keeps trying to shave it off. It's annoying me because I love his hair!

I twiddle it

TondelayoSchwarzkopf Sat 19-Oct-13 16:48:15

I definitely think the best way to persuade women that natural pubic hair is preferable is to go on about how unattractive genitals are without it. I mean, that's not body-shaming at all. hmm

- Not everyone has the same feelings about their body hair
- Not everyone has the same types (or quantity) of body hair - it varies hugely
- Not every adult HAS body hair on their pubis

PrincessFlirtyPants Sat 19-Oct-13 16:54:48

I have to admit that I find a removed bush astonishly unattractive in either sex, very 'last turkey in the shop-esque'

Good to know, a close friend of mine is going through chemo. I'm sure she would be thrilled to be compared in this way.

notthefirstagainstthewall Sat 19-Oct-13 16:59:26

"I think that's very judgemental notthefirstagainstthewall

Some people prefer to trim/save/wax other don't, why would you care what another woman chooses to do with her pubic hair? It's their choice.

Well it IS all about being judgmental isn't it. If you don't follow the fashion to "tidy up" you are judged as messy, unclean and outdated. I have friends who shave their bits completely and more friends that don't. I have a friend that has no sense of style at all.I do judge her lack of style but also understand where it comes from hence we are friends.

The fact that someones birthing experience is now fraught by worries around how much hair is acceptable is why I give a judgmental opinion and "care" about other women's choices. If no one cared about other women's choices then why would the Op post?

curlew Sat 19-Oct-13 17:03:46

There is a woman on this thread who has so bought into the myth that an adult woman's body is hideous unless depilated that she can't bring herself to go for a smear test.

Might that make any of you pause for thought?

PrincessFlirtyPants Sat 19-Oct-13 17:10:32

notthefirstagainstthewall

I don't know why the OP posted, as I'm not the OP.

I think it's sad that some women are concerned about their pubic hair when going birth as clearly there are more important things to worry about. However, I do find it sad that a number of women have judged those who choose to wax/shave/trim.

I shave but I do not give a damn what anyone else does, their vagina, their choice. Frankly, it's none of my business.

Fakebook Sat 19-Oct-13 17:13:50

DP is ashamed of his hair and keeps trying to shave it off. It's annoying me because I love his hair!

*I twiddle it*

....and the too much information on the thread award goes to Strumpetron confused

curlew Sat 19-Oct-13 17:16:08

"However, I do find it sad that a number of women have judged those who choose to wax/shave/trim."

It's a bloody sight sadder to judge those that don't.

IneedAsockamnesty Sat 19-Oct-13 17:17:47

Oh hang on a sec, I started this thread because I wanted to ask if others agreed with my "lets not bother" stance on the matter not because I'm fraught in anyway shape or form.

PrincessFlirtyPants Sat 19-Oct-13 17:18:20

I agree curlew

I just don't see why anyone would judge anyone for keeping or getting rid of their pubic hair! It's mind boggling confused

IneedAsockamnesty Sat 19-Oct-13 17:27:03

Well I am a bit fraught but only because I dropped my sherbet fountain nothing to do with pubic hair

Beastofburden Sat 19-Oct-13 17:28:49

Sock you don't strike me as the fraught type! Enjoy the baby.

PrincessFlirtyPants Sat 19-Oct-13 17:32:09

Sock, you really don't come across as being fraught! I hope my posts haven't insinuated I thought you were.

Lj8893 Sat 19-Oct-13 17:38:16

I don't think anyone on this thread (haven't read it properly so forgive me if I'm wrong) has judged anybody for choosing not to shave/trim/wax their body hair.

Plenty on here have judged people that choose to shave/wax/trim though.

And to whoever that asked how body hair can be uncomfortable.....

Sorry if its tmi but if my pubic hair gets too long it gets itchy, as its fairly wiry and cause it irritates my labia and inner thighs! Same with my leg hair, if I have bare legs it irritates my skin to have the hair rubbing together.

Lj8893 Sat 19-Oct-13 17:38:56

* coarse not cause

Strumpetron Sat 19-Oct-13 17:56:44

fakebook all this talk of fanjos and twiddling hair is TMI? wink

Writerwannabe83 Sat 19-Oct-13 17:59:33

I'm with lj8893 - the only people who I see on this thread who are on the receiving end of judgement are those who do choose to wax or shave..... hmm

HarderToKidnap Sat 19-Oct-13 18:02:17

I'm a midwife and have never heard, or made, or even thought of a comment about someone's pubes. Totally does not register, why would it? Of course you notice if someone has a bush or is bald, but it just passes across my brain landscape like any other passing thought. I would think that any midwife or obs who did mention was bloody odd, to be honest.

I work in probably the naicest hospital in the country with a huge proportion of middle class mums and I have noticed more full bushes than not. Younger working class women and certain ethnicities are more Likely to have taken it all off.

coldwater1 Sat 19-Oct-13 18:05:43

I was a student midwife for 7 months, i didn't notice or pay much attention to what it looked like, i was far too concerned in making sure baby was born safely and that i was paying attention to the machanics of labour and birth!

zzzzz Sat 19-Oct-13 18:08:12

grin I love the thought of topiary being a class thing! grin

HarderToKidnap Sat 19-Oct-13 18:13:52

I'm not sure if it is, just an association that I have noticed! I can say with total certainty though that Arab women take it all off and Japanese women leave it all on!

fluffyraggies Sat 19-Oct-13 18:17:49

2 things -

Firstly i started shaving in the mid 80's as a teen. It wasn't because of porn. I hadn't seen any! It was, i think, because it felt nice, and because i found it cleaner to deal with my periods.

Secondly i must take issue with this giggling about bodies business. I have never had to see lots of folks pubes, but am a trained bra fitter (since my late teens) and have seen billions of sets of boobs. Big boobs, small boobs, mastectomies - the lot. I have never once giggled about anyone's body. The only time i and my co-workers have ever passed comment is on a really dirty/smelly body. Even then it's not giggling. It's more - sad

SomethingOnce Sat 19-Oct-13 18:18:59

My impression is that, like many aesthetic choices, there is some correlation with class, zzzzz.

digerd Sat 19-Oct-13 18:27:38

Germans loved hairy people and found it very sexy. Left there in 1998 so don't know if it has changed. Hairy armpits were also valued, which is all I saw except on their many popular nudist beaches.

What is a "last turkey " mean?

SomethingOnce Sat 19-Oct-13 18:50:44

Skinny and plucked-looking.

Fakebook Sat 19-Oct-13 19:05:48

No Strumpetron, just you twiddling your dh's pubic hair! confused grin.

Strumpetron Sat 19-Oct-13 19:22:57

fakebook I do tend to over share but a good twiddle does the heart good blush

No.
I was so glad I did no more than a wee trim (what I do normally), because my fanny was really sore after wards, and the thought of itchy regrowth with a bruised fanny and possible wounds makes me feel sick.

Fakebook Sat 19-Oct-13 19:43:24

grin grin grin and there was me thinking exercise and healthy eating did the heart good. All these years I've been doing it all wrong!

KarmaBiatch Sat 19-Oct-13 20:13:11

Why don't you all just agree to disagree, and maybe realise that everyone has their own personal preference to do what they wish with their 'PRIVATE' parts wink

Lj8893 Sat 19-Oct-13 20:14:17

karma has it spot on!!

PrincessFlirtyPants Sat 19-Oct-13 20:17:52

Completely agree Karma smile

VivaLeThrustBadger Sat 19-Oct-13 20:38:15

Yes, at the end of the day for the majority of women the only people who will see your pubic hair or lack of it is your other half and health professionals.

I'm sure your other half loves you enough to not care and I'm sure the health professionals don't give a toss.

frogslegs35 Sat 19-Oct-13 20:45:20

I don't care what others do/don't do to their muffs but personally I trim and shave mine for mostly the same reasons as Lj8893 mentioned above, also because my pubes haven't been curly for agessss confused , so seeing as I now grow straight hair down there, if I didn't control it, within weeks I'd look like some weird breed of Wolf Hound I'm not joking smile

In answer to the OP - Midwife won't notice nor care.
I got my ex to trim me a few days before the birth of DC2 - I'd wanted just a little bit off but he thought it would be funny to shave a heart shape dickhead Anyway.... 2 midwives didn't even notice until after I'd given birth - they concentrate more on baby's road out rather than the sidewalk smile

Strumpetron Sat 19-Oct-13 20:46:14

When I left mine to grow they left IMPRINTS on my thighs that bloody hurt! I must have an uber bush.

notthefirstagainstthewall Sat 19-Oct-13 21:18:10

It's sadder if you judge someone by what they are born with. Hair, skin colour, gender, looks etc etc. Apparently if you don't change these - black people whiten up , white people tan, hairy people shave, bald people get transplants you ain't trying hard enough.
Since most people have pubic hair fucking about with it means it's a vanity/fashion thing rather than a human being functioning thing.Shaving it off is judgmental.

oakmouse Sat 19-Oct-13 21:21:57

I imagine medical staff are probably just happy if they find everything's ok; they have to deal with life and death stuff - rapture, agony, nerve-wracking tension, uncertainty, searing pain and profound relief. The length or absence of a woman's pubic hair probably isn't what they will look back and remember!

SplitHeadGirl Sat 19-Oct-13 21:28:55

My brother is a midwife and I remember he said that he and the other midwives hear comments from birthing women re. how they look and that he and the other midwives just want to dispel their worries...they don't care!!!!

SplitHeadGirl Sat 19-Oct-13 21:30:31

Just what Oakmouse said!!!

My best friend is also a nurse and she too just has the patient/person in front of her in mind. NOT how they look!!!

Strumpetron Sat 19-Oct-13 21:33:32

How is shaving your pubes judgemental?!! Heard it all now! I suppose if I dye my hair an unnatural colour that's judgemental too?

We do LOTS of things that aren't for survival. Because we're lucky enough to not have to coventrate on survival. I don't want to be rude but I think it's a really moot point.

Strumpetron Sat 19-Oct-13 21:35:07

And it isn't for vanity, for some of us it is comfort. The most judgemental post I've read is from you unfortunately notthefirst which is ironic.

I don't care what others do/don't do to their muffs but personally I trim and shave mine for mostly the same reasons as Lj8893 mentioned above, also because my pubes haven't been curly for agessss confused , so seeing as I now grow straight hair down there, if I didn't control it, within weeks I'd look like some weird breed of Wolf Hound I'm not joking smile

Good point. Another straight-puber here and I suspect it does make a difference. The fuckers get tangled and it's hard to degunk knots compared to short (<1cm) individual hairs.

TMI?

bellybuttonfairy Sat 19-Oct-13 21:46:06

Im a midwife and really do not care what peoples bikini lines are like! Im very concerned with the position of the baby, dilatation etc. I do remember one woman tell me after labour that I was one of the few people who knew she wasnt a true blonde. Apparently she had red pubic hair and I hadnt really noticed! (In fairness it was a quick complicated labour!)

KatyPutTheCuttleOn Sat 19-Oct-13 21:47:40

Whatever your bikini line is like will be fine - the midwife will have seen more 'styles' of bikini line than we have had hot dinners...

Writerwannabe83 Sat 19-Oct-13 21:58:21

Shaving it off is judgmental grin

That's given me a good laugh!

Does this apply to shaving our legs and armpits too notthefirst?
I'm obviously assuming you don't do either in view of not wanting to be judgemental...

DanglingChillis Sat 19-Oct-13 22:13:54

I've not read the whole thread (!) but I wanted to say that you wouldn't necessarily get shaved for a CS. A shaved bikini line could actually increase the chance of infection and a lot of hospitals ask you to refrain from shaving for a week or so before a planned CS.

I have a friend who is a doctor and she did comment once how surprised she was how many people were shaved. Another example of the class divide? I suspect it's more that the older you are the less likely you are to shave, since it wasn't fashionable to be bald in the 80s and 90s. So older middle class Mums are less likely to shave.

Lj8893 Sat 19-Oct-13 22:37:48

^shaving it off is judgemental^

What the actual fuck!!!!!

That's given me a laugh.

So if I was to cut my hair on my head it's judgemental too yeah?!

IneedAsockamnesty Sat 19-Oct-13 22:39:28

I'm actually rather pleased that lots of midwives and other HCP'S have come on to say they don't notice or care.

MrsMook Sat 19-Oct-13 22:47:42

with DS1 I had a huge bump and managed to do some maintainence with a trimmer attachment on a (long handled) electric razor, and a mirror on the bottom of the bath. The last time was a blind effort as the bump totally eclipsed the mirror. With DS2, the bump was less wide and easier to reach. I wasn't bothered about the reaction of the people involved in the birth, but felt that being tidier down there would help manage the lochia better after.

I had one MW on the ward comment I was very tidy when she checked my stitches!

notthefirstagainstthewall Sat 19-Oct-13 23:18:20

The majority of midwifes and doctors have said they don't give a flying fuck about pubes. Yet still the concern is they may be judged. So who has profligated this concern?

So it['s Ok to be a sweaty minger after doing a Gillian shred workout but not so much if you're fat minger after a flight of stairs? You all judge. Hair or lack off is simply a fashion.

You'd all put up with all sorts of blood, sweat and mess if one day bushy fannies were fashionable the same as you put up with the stress of not having a tidy bush, itchiness and expense of a "tidy" fanny.

PrincessFlirtyPants Sat 19-Oct-13 23:20:37

Who would have thought that there would be anyone with a shaved fanjo chip on their shoulder?! hmm

Lj8893 Sat 19-Oct-13 23:23:46

I will say it again......for me trimming and shaving is not a "fashion".

So if it did become fashionable to not trim or shave or whatever, then I wouldn't follow that fashion because I trim for comfort. Have done as long as I can remember. I've always found long pubic hair really uncomfortable!

notthefirstagainstthewall Sat 19-Oct-13 23:28:26

Lj8893 So why do you actually have a haircut then. Presumably it IS * so someone can assume something about you? Nice hair equals some sort of female worth apparently.

I am very lucky in that I have cool hair without involving a hairdresser. This has given me enough self belief not to massacre my pubes. You can live with the hair you've got you know. It's not the rule that hair must be straightened, curled, bleached, dyed, cut or shaved....

PrincessFlirtyPants Sat 19-Oct-13 23:31:25

Nice hair equals some sort of female worth apparently.

When has anyone said that on this thread?! What a bizarre thing to say!

Lj8893 Sat 19-Oct-13 23:32:54

Actually I get my hair cut less than once a year wonders about split ends

When I do eventually get my hair cut its because its getting too long and irritating me. I have fairly long hair but once it gets to a certain point it starts to irritate me and I find it uncomfortable. The same as my pubes! As I have said several times I don't trim my pubic hair for vanity reasons, its purely because I find it very very uncomfortable when its long!

Lj8893 Sat 19-Oct-13 23:34:29

Oh and I haven't dyed my hair since I was an experimental teenager. And I don't own straightners or curlers. And I only use my hairdryer on special occasions!

notthefirstagainstthewall Sat 19-Oct-13 23:42:52

Lj8893 Ok but lots of things about being a female are uncomfortable. If long pubes became fashionable, then sorry most women would do it.
Seriously if the absence of pubes signified being an" uptight out of date 2013 bird" and unshaven muffs became fashionable it would all go the same way as brows.
You may well shave your bits as is your right, but if it wasn't cool, how many would follow you?

Lj8893 Sat 19-Oct-13 23:47:57

Tbh I don't give a fuck weather other women shave or not for fashion, comfort or otherwise.

All I give a fuck about is my pubes tbh, nobody else's.

IneedAsockamnesty Sun 20-Oct-13 01:51:33

Call me a prude but I for one would not like to see the cat walks turn into pube fashion parades,its far to cold for that sort of thing

Lj8893 Sun 20-Oct-13 04:20:31

Not even if they are sporting heart shaped topiarys with cute sparkly vajazzles sock wink

IneedAsockamnesty Sun 20-Oct-13 07:47:13

Well do they make see through thermals?

Bunbaker Sun 20-Oct-13 15:36:28

"However talking to several young women friends in their very early twenties (am currently doing a degree) they report all being terrified when they first grew pubes and instantly shaved them off from the word go, all of them hate the idea of hair there and say there is no way they would ever let a boyfriend see them in anything but a fully shaven state for fear of his reaction, be it disgust or ridicule.

I cannot express how much I do not want this for my daughter"

It is this that worries me. I actually don't care what other women do, but I do care that there is obviously pressure on young girls to make them think that not shaving is unacceptable.

Why do so many young men find the au naturel look distasteful?

SomethingOnce Sun 20-Oct-13 17:28:50

If that's true (is there quality research to back up that assertion?) I'm sure it's because most of the female genitals they see are porn ones, and most of those are hairless.

I very much doubt a sample of young men would've expressed a preference for hairless 10-15 years ago.

Writerwannabe83 Sun 20-Oct-13 17:33:46

Why do so many young men find the au naturel look distasteful?

Who said they do?
Why is it being assumed that women who shave/trim do it because of what men think?

Why can't a women herself not like the 'au naturel' look and choose to do something about it?

Women do have their own minds......

zzzzz Sun 20-Oct-13 17:39:55

I think young men must have changed if this is true. In my youth there was no question of compare/contrast/criticism. Do young women also now have grooming requirements of their partners?

Writerwannabe83 Sun 20-Oct-13 17:44:08

I think a large percentage of guy in maybe the 16-35 age bracket probably do keep themselves groomed, not because it is required or asked of them, but just because they want to keep it tidy because that's how they prefer it. No different to a woman's reasons really.

PrincessFlirtyPants Sun 20-Oct-13 17:56:00

zzzzz I personally prefer it when my husband doesn't groom, but every now and again he likes to. I wouldn't stop him/enforce my views on him if he wants to I let him get on with it.

Bunbaker Sun 20-Oct-13 18:12:28

I am only going on what has been said on these forums. I don't actually know what teenagers do for grooming.

Writerwannabe83 Sun 20-Oct-13 18:22:09

I don't think anyone has said that men don't like the natural look - I think the issue is that some people don't seem to want to accept that the women themselves don't like it.

elskovs Sun 20-Oct-13 18:32:52

Mine DEFINITLEY noticed. Had to have an "emergency" section and as she was shaving she mentioned at least twice that there was a lot of hair. It was my first and it just didn't occur to me. Mind you this was in a hospital which insisted women in had an enema when admitted to the labour ward

Lj8893 Sun 20-Oct-13 18:42:08

I'm young (25) and have had sex with a variety of guys in that age bracket (obvs before dp!!) and my pubic hair has been in a variety of states (although I have never gone completely bare!) and I have never had any complaints so I don't think its fair to say the majority of younger men don't like the natural look.

I just asked my dp, who is a couple of years younger than me, what he thinks/prefers. And i quote....

"Don't really care, i think most guys are just thanking the lucky stars each time they get laid rather than worry what the pubes look like" grin

Writerwannabe83 Sun 20-Oct-13 20:46:09

Spoke like a true gentleman, grin

I have been sexually active for over 14 years and in that time I have never been in a relationship or situation where pubic hair etiquette has been discussed - it just isn't seen as an issue. The way I see it is that the guy can do what he wants with his and the woman can do what she wants with hers. I doubt that many partners would ever raise it is an 'issue' and I don't imagine either sex really cares either way what their partner does.

Lj8893 Sun 20-Oct-13 21:12:14

I know, I'm such a lucky girl! Ha!

I agree, I really do think in most sexual relationships pubic hair is a complete non issue.

eeyore2911 Mon 21-Oct-13 08:28:35

I have a full Hollywood every 5/6 weeks and carried on while pregnant and made sure I got done a week before due date.. All prepared for an audience wink, however my DS decided to make a speedy appearance on the bathroom floor at home so the only person who saw my fanjo was OH confused!! Best laid plans....

Writerwannabe83 Mon 21-Oct-13 08:30:58

Is a Full Hollywood complete removal??

IneedAsockamnesty Mon 21-Oct-13 15:38:45

I am so not going to google full Hollywood

JenaiMorris Mon 21-Oct-13 17:54:36

Of course a woman can choose to remove her pubic hair if she so wishes, as long as it really is of her own volition. Some of the posts on threads like these suggest that it isn't always as free a choice as people make out - that's what concerns me.

I can't think of any other grooming task that confers no health benefits (and might actually be harmful) that, if a woman chooses not to do it, elicits such a reaction.

JenaiMorris Mon 21-Oct-13 18:03:14

Oh and someone mentioned upthread that bald fanjos have always featured in porn. That's true to an extent, but not so long ago it was a specialist thing, and one that was often regarded with at least a hint of hmm

Female pubic hair was de rigeur in the 70s and 80s. There's definitely a flash of muff in the uncut version of Duran Duran's Girls on Film video (accepted, this isn't exactly scientific evidence!) and there was plenty to see in any nude scene in pretty much any mainstream (ie non-pornographic) movie.

RaRa1988 Mon 21-Oct-13 18:13:40

I'm 24 and the preference of all men in vaguely my age bracket over the last few years (you might be surprised how often it comes up in conversation) is for women to be 'tidy', 'neat', 'shaved', or 'trimmed'. They generally seem to consider a 'full bush' nothing short of disgusting. This point of view doesn't bother me because I'm shaved most of it off ever since it first grew, but if I wanted to be au naturale, I'd probably feel a little awkward and lacking in confidence as a result of what these men seem to think. That probably accounts for why some women my age trim/shave, but does it really matter? Is it any different from trying to make oneself attractive in other ways, such as styling and dyeing hair, wearing fashionable well-fitting clothes, or applying make-up?

IneedAsockamnesty Mon 21-Oct-13 18:31:40

Very good question (and point there rara) BUT I'm pretty certain I would not even contemplate applying make up to go to hospital so I can give birth.

RaRa1988 Mon 21-Oct-13 18:37:20

Well, in that context I can totally understand you. But as a general principle, I don't think there's much difference. Personally, though, I'll be putting some mascara on at least - I'm just not confident enough to be seen without.

JenaiMorris Mon 21-Oct-13 18:40:27

It is different because a lack of mascara doesn't elicit the disgust you mention, RaRa.

Bunbaker Mon 21-Oct-13 19:02:33

"I'm 24 and the preference of all men in vaguely my age bracket over the last few years (you might be surprised how often it comes up in conversation) is for women to be 'tidy', 'neat', 'shaved', or 'trimmed'. They generally seem to consider a 'full bush' nothing short of disgusting."

I find that statement so depressing. It is that type of thing I was alluding to in an earlier post - the expectations of young men these days and what DD will have to face when she is older.

Lj8893 Mon 21-Oct-13 19:06:07

^ I find that statement sad too. But like I said up thread I'm 25 and knew very few men in my age bracket that thinks like that.

Bunbaker Mon 21-Oct-13 19:12:15

Oh, that's comforting. Maybe it depends on the type of men you know.

Lj8893 Mon 21-Oct-13 19:15:44

Perhaps! To be honest the few men I do know that would say a full bush wasent nice etc are pretty immature and self obsessive and probably shouldnt be too fussy IMO!

SomethingOnce Mon 21-Oct-13 20:42:07

Personally, though, I'll be putting some mascara on at least - I'm just not confident enough to be seen without.

RaRa, I find it astonishing that you say that. I mean, it's not the first time I've heard a similar sentiment by any means, but it never ceases to make me go shock

Realistically, however attractive you are, how much difference to your appearance do you think it makes, that your confidence suffers for the lack of it?

This gloopy crap in a tube seems to have magical powers. It's odd though, because all I see is the same woman with pigment stuck to her lashes - I'm just not getting the magic.

Bunbaker Mon 21-Oct-13 20:51:26

Mascara for a labour suite! Why? After several hours you won't look great anyway. A mascaraless face would surely look better than a hot sweaty face with black smudges all over it.

RaRa1988 Mon 21-Oct-13 20:52:54

Dunno. I don't wear a lot of makeup by any means, but I do think I'm clever enough with what I do use to highlight my good features and make myself look better. Without mascara, I tend to look more tired - there's something about it that seems to open up my eyes and draw attention to them.

Bunbaker: It probably does depend on the sort of men you know and associate with - I'd imagine preference differs as it does with most other things. But your DD doesn't have to grow up with anything if she is strong enough and confident enough in herself to be who she wants to be. That confidence is perhaps the best gift you can give her and, as you feel the way you do about young women being judged so much on their appearance, I'm sure you will and she'll be all the better for it smile. But if she chooses to shave or trim her pubic hair, don't judge her for it.

IneedAsockamnesty Mon 21-Oct-13 21:09:04

Christ NO NO I am not going to let anybody talk me into mascara for this particular situation no matter how wonderful the stuff is.

I just want to arrive have a baby not worry about what I look like have a shower then go home.

Bunbaker Mon 21-Oct-13 21:19:06

Thank you RaRa. That sounds pretty sensible advice. Having a teenager is a minefield (sigh)

Alibabaandthe40nappies Mon 21-Oct-13 21:20:44

RaRa - you are going to be giving birth. You will be running with sweat in all probability, at which point the mascara will make you look like Alice Cooper.

I think we all look more tired without mascara, that is the purpose of it after all. Doesn't mean that you should be worrying about needing to wear it for labour!

WilsonFrickett Mon 21-Oct-13 21:33:47

Oh no, get a wax. I had an emergency section and they dry shaved me. Fucking itchy when it grew back - drove me insane on top of the c-section scar pains and aches plus bf hassles. it really was the straw which broke the donkey's back in my case.

I don't want mascara in labour. But I sure as fuck want it as soon as possible afterwards before anyone takes any photos.

Pigsmummy Mon 21-Oct-13 21:45:39

Have a tidy up, I did, with a mirror, when you are in labor your subconscious takes over and anything worrying you will come out. If you have a little trim, with aforementioned mirror/no labia snipping please then you won't worry about that.

Bunbaker Mon 21-Oct-13 21:46:02

"I think we all look more tired without mascara"

I don't think so. I have dark eyelashes anyway. On the odd occasion I do wear it people think I am wearing false eyelashes!

RaRa1988 Mon 21-Oct-13 22:08:24

Bunbaker : I don't think it's got anything to do with the colour of your eyelashes, more the shape/curve of them than anything. I think it makes me look more awake and attractive because it curves my eyelashes and opens up my eyes.

I do agree with you that shaving/trimming or not should be personal choice, but I think you have to accept that my generation and today's teenagers are more likely to shave/trim than not. It's just the done thing; it's normal for us. For me, there's never been any other way, and I can't imagine just letting it grow wild. I find that a repulsive concept, and I know that my DP feels the same way and wouldn't want to go anywhere near me. My that's my/our choice. I'm not judging yours - just saying it's not right for me and I don't understand it because it's so far from what I know.

SomethingOnce Mon 21-Oct-13 22:16:39

You will be running with sweat in all probability, at which point the mascara will make you look like Alice Cooper.

Alibaba, thanks for making me laugh for the first time today grin A labouring Alice Cooper - terrifying!

Sleepgrumpydopey Mon 21-Oct-13 22:17:33

I went for a holly wood wax before having my baby. It hurt so much I had the right side done and couldn't take anymore so said I'd come back the nxt day so she could wax the other half.

I never went back!

IneedAsockamnesty Mon 21-Oct-13 22:20:19

I think providing you are making a choice for your own bikini line and nobody else's its totally up to you.

But I am very very glad that its highly unlikely anyone under 30 will be getting close enough to mine to express an opinion unless its a HCP amd there opinion is a medical one.

IneedAsockamnesty Mon 21-Oct-13 22:20:48

What the jeff is a Hollywood?

SomethingOnce Mon 21-Oct-13 22:21:28

A little bit of grooming isn't necessarily a bad thing, but

I find that a repulsive concept, and I know that my DP feels the same way and wouldn't want to go anywhere near me.

...repulsion? Blimey sad

BIWI Mon 21-Oct-13 22:24:19

Do you not think that it's very strange that you would talk about a natural part of your body as 'repulsive'?

curlew Mon 21-Oct-13 22:28:36

Don't you also think it's strange that your Dp "wouldn't go anywhere near you" if you had normal adult woman's body hair?

Bunbaker Mon 21-Oct-13 22:41:00

Yes, I find it disturbing as well.

Lj8893 Mon 21-Oct-13 22:46:47

If my dp said that "he wouldn't go anywhere near me" I would be finding someone that would instead grin

JenaiMorris Mon 21-Oct-13 22:53:36

I'd be washing my muff with Alpecin and finishing it off with a Babylis Big Hair.

Geneticsbunny Mon 21-Oct-13 22:56:38

Get a vagazzle. I am seriously considering it to cheer the midwives up.

SomethingOnce Mon 21-Oct-13 23:25:30

Lol of the day #2 courtesy of Jenai.

DanglingChillis Mon 21-Oct-13 23:25:47

This is the thread that taught me what a vajazzle was. I'm in my 40s, I know nothing of this pornification of society. And funnily enough my DH still seems to be very happy to have sex with me and my hair.

MissMuesli Mon 21-Oct-13 23:29:02

I am very hairy, and didn't do a thing about it! Although, I wish I had only just because I had stitched and the hair made everything harder to clean! The midwives didn't care one bit, neither did they care when I pood as I pushed! Maybe if you have a student they may notice but sure a trained midwife couldn't care less, unless your public hair was really bizzare and plaited or something!

RaRa1988 Tue 22-Oct-13 09:42:21

No I don't. He doesn't like excessive body hair and nor do I. Given I would never allow mine to be long/bushy/natural, it would never concern me that he wouldn't like it that way. Obviously if I liked it au naturale and he had a problem with it, I'd tell him to go fuck someone else, but as we have the same preference, what's the problem?

cory Tue 22-Oct-13 11:47:02

Sorry but I am struggling to keep my pelvic muscles under control at the thought of somebody anxiously applying mascara so as to look less tired and more attractive during labour.

Rara, hate to break this to you, but even a good labour means going bright red in the face, screaming, grunting, streaming with sweat, for hours, if not days, on end.

And you will look up absolutely exhausted at the end of it: puffy in the face, smelling of sweat, smeared with blood, water and quite possibly shit, likely shaking with exhaustion and shock.

And nobody will be interested in your looks anyway: you have just given birth to a new human being - you are not going to be the centre of attention. Who will also be red and soaked and smelly- and wonderful!

Scholes34 Tue 22-Oct-13 13:40:52

You won't be wearing a bikini, so don't worry.

TondelayoSchwarzkopf Tue 22-Oct-13 21:15:50

There's a difference between having a 'preference' and finding full body hair a 'repulsive concept'.

I'm 24 and the preference of all men in vaguely my age bracket over the last few years ...is for women to be 'tidy', 'neat', 'shaved', or 'trimmed'. They generally seem to consider a 'full bush' nothing short of disgusting. This point of view doesn't bother me because I'm shaved most of it off ever since it first grew, but if I wanted to be au naturale, I'd probably feel a little awkward and lacking in confidence as a result of what these men seem to think. That probably accounts for why some women my age trim/shave, but does it really matter?

Er... yeah, it does. There is a gaping chasm between doing something because YOU prefer it and doing something because some twats men prefer it.

havatry Tue 22-Oct-13 23:24:29

Having worked in hospitals, you're pretty much blind to it all when you see it every day and have no interest in whether anybody trims their ladygarden or not.

ColderThanAWitchsTitty Wed 23-Oct-13 01:37:11

I don't shave my bits, but I did for birth because I thought it might make things easier to see blush I am quite bushy! grin tbf though I am sure the midwife would have noticed the head coming out anyway! Not sure if it makes it easier if you need to be stitched?

I wouldn't bother for vanity reasons only for after birth comfort. I seriously don't believe HCP giggle behind closed doors at pubes, surely they save that for people who accidentally "fall" over on to bottles etc?

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