To be fucked off that parents not vaccinating their child is risking my childs life?

(348 Posts)
TheGlovesAreOrf Tue 15-Oct-13 20:51:04

I never judged them before. I never cared, if they chose not to vaccinate their child I always thought it was their choice and its not for me to have an opinion.
I never used to give it much more thought that that. I vaccinate mu children and what others do with theirs is none of my business.

Until I have a child who's immune system is often (but not always, steroid use) compramised. He is more likely to pick up bugs, and not deal with them very well.

He is also allergic to many things. I know tha egg allergy isnt usually an issue, but the MMR is cultivated on egg albumin. He is allergic to egg (anaphylactic) chicken meat, and feathers. The whole caboodle. Im pretty sure his tiny body wont like egg albumin either.

He's due to have this vaccine very very soon in hospital and Im absolutely shitting myself. Every time I remember it my stomach drops and my heart races.

Im genuinely thinking, what if he dies?

I cant get the vaccines done individually because the private clinics wont touch me with a barge pole.

I cant risk leaving it (Ive left it 18 months so far) because the area I live in has a very low MMR rate.

And that really, really angers me. Probably irrationally so.

I should be able to leave it. My son should be protected by societies use of the MMR.

Instead I either have to risk him getting an illness, or risk giving him this injection.

As if he hasnt been enough already.

I know IABU, but I just feel very resentful and angry towards those who choose not to vaccine right now.

More than prepared to be flamed for this.

Loosingthebigkickers Tue 15-Oct-13 20:53:15

I don't know where to start with this one.

this won't end well.

bigbuttons Tue 15-Oct-13 20:54:15

there are many children, like mine who are not vaccinated, not because I am selfish or can't be bothered but because I have very valid concerns based on the experiences of my first child post mmr.

This conversation has been done to death.

PrincessFlirtyPants Tue 15-Oct-13 20:54:26

Highly emotive subject, OP.

AIBU may not be the best place or this.

CoconutCake Tue 15-Oct-13 20:55:39

YANBU you should expect that society as a whole would be vaccinated to give your dc herd immunity.

I wish we were like america in some respects where dc cannot start school until vaccines have been done.

Would I feel the same way in your shoes - too right!
Do I feel that people should be forced into making a decision that they feel would be against the best interests of THEIR child for the sake of yours, not so sure.
I hope your DC is ok though flowers

ICameOnTheJitney Tue 15-Oct-13 20:59:27

As upsetting and worrying as this is, there is no "should" about it. Other people are free to vaccinate or not as they choose. Sorry you are so worried though.

Morgause Tue 15-Oct-13 21:00:16

I'm sure there would be a better uptake if separate vaccines were allowed. Our DSs had separate vaccines for measles. Both had mumps before they were due for the jabs and they are boys so don't need the rubella vaccine.


PrimalLass Tue 15-Oct-13 21:00:34

Why won't the NHS do single vacs if the MMR contains something he is allergic to?

BTW, mine would be fully vac'd with singles if bastarding Merck hadn't stopped producing Mumpsvax.

ICameOnTheJitney Tue 15-Oct-13 21:01:05

Coconut being forced to give drugs to your child by the State would be a terrible thing. No argument could possibly make that any different....only China and similar countries would do such a thing. And in my opinion the USA and for that matter Australia are far too heavy handed about it.

neontetra Tue 15-Oct-13 21:01:21

YANBU, op, to be worried and scared for your child in this situation. Whatever the rights and wrongs of others choices, I do hope you and your boy are ok. X

Sirzy Tue 15-Oct-13 21:02:09

I can understand your frustrations on the matter.

PrimalLass Tue 15-Oct-13 21:03:13

I wish we were like america in some respects where dc cannot start school until vaccines have been done.

The same America where children get gunned down in schools that now have to have security guards. A country that thinks its citizens should have personal freedom to bear arms but not to opt out of vaccinations.

Mumsyblouse Tue 15-Oct-13 21:04:15

To be honest, if he's risking anaphalaxis for the MMR, I wouldn't have it and I am very pro-MMR for those who have no issues. He may travel when older into non-herd immunity countries and you can't expect the whole world to have herd immunity for this.

I wouldn't risk it for polio or some of the other diseases, I know people will come on saying that mumps, measles can be very serious etc, but I would consider it an acceptable risk to have the MMR diseases. I prefer not to, and have vaccinated my own children, but I also understand those who choose not to and I don't blame them for this lack of herd immunity, which as I say, is not limited to the UK anyway.

2tiredtocare Tue 15-Oct-13 21:04:38

It may have been done to death bigbuttons but it's personal to this OP why should she not be allowed to vent because people have asked the question before.

grobagsforever Tue 15-Oct-13 21:04:58


slightlysoupstained Tue 15-Oct-13 21:05:48

YANBU OP but like others I don't expect it to take long for this one to go wrong, given that even with worried parents begging people not to hijack an informational thread (letting people know where to get jabs during last year's measles outbreak) it still filled up with...stuff I can only describe as deeply unhelpful (without getting ranty, I found the posts deeply manipulative and unpleasant).

cantsleep Tue 15-Oct-13 21:05:57

Just to reassure you my ds1 who is severely allergic to egg (carries epi pens) had the mmr and was fine. We had it done at the hospital just in case but he had no problems.

2tiredtocare Tue 15-Oct-13 21:06:41

My brother nearly died of measles and was comatose for weeks, my husband had his MMR in hospital due to egg allergy

YoureBeingADick Tue 15-Oct-13 21:06:50

Op how do you know the other people dont have reasons that are just as valid as yours?

misdee Tue 15-Oct-13 21:07:16

I have an egg allergic child (anaphylactic) she wont have the mmr jab.

my youngest children wont have the nasal flu jab as dh is immune suppressed due to transplant, and its been advised that no-one in the home has the live vaccine.

my eldest 3 are fully vaccinated. (youngest 3 in various stages of jabs programme and which can be done). my 3rd vaccinated child went down with mumps last year.

silverten Tue 15-Oct-13 21:07:42

I don't think you're being wholly unreasonable to be upset about it. But life isn't fair, is it? And we fortunately live in a country where we have a choice about these things.

But I'd be more cross at the dodgy researchers who took liberties with the scientific principle, and the sloppy journalists who reported things badly, wrongly and sensationally and whipped the issue up into a storm just to flog a few more papers. They are more to blame for parents making the decision not to vaccinate, IMO.

TheGlovesAreOrf Tue 15-Oct-13 21:08:16

To totally contradict myself, Id hate it if we had to vaccinate before school.

Making a parent vaccinate goes against every fibre of my body. Possibly because I SO dont want to vaccinate?

What I want is everyone else to make the best decision for my son. Which is of course utterly ridiculous. I know this.

Im just really, really fucking scared.

The first time he went into anaphylactic shock, it wasnt a case of anaphylaxis-ambulance-adrenalin-recovery. The aftermath was absolutely horrendous, it took his body 3 months to get over it, I cant explain how bad it was. It was more frightening, painful and awful that the anaphylaxis itself.
This worries me grately.

ReallyTired Tue 15-Oct-13 21:09:18

I am sorry that you are having to go through so much worry with your son. I think you have every right to be angry with people who don't vacinate.

I wish that child benefit was linked to being up to date with vacinations for chidlren WITHOUT medical problems. This stop short of complusory vacination, but many parents who haven't vacinated their children have not done so because of laziness rather than a deliberate decision.

The herd immunity would then protect children who cannot have the jab or those for whom the jab fails to give protection. (Ie. MMR is 90% effective and 99% effective after two doses)

Driz Tue 15-Oct-13 21:10:00

Children don't need to be vaccinated before they start school in the US, you just need to sign a form stating you have chosen not to vaccinate.

quoteunquote Tue 15-Oct-13 21:10:15

YANBU OP, herd immunity is so important,

and all those who don't would soon change their tune if their child might die because of unnecessary infection.

candycoatedwaterdrops Tue 15-Oct-13 21:10:31

I don't think YANBU for feeling that way but this will kick off big time, with the same few posters going round and round in circles. I can already reel a few names off in my head who I know who will be here soon.

TheGlovesAreOrf Tue 15-Oct-13 21:10:44

Tbh its not his egg allergy that worries me.

Its the fact that he is allergic to every part of the chicken that is available to us. Im making an assumption I know, but Im pretty sure his immune system wont be happy with egg albumin either.

Notmadeofrib Tue 15-Oct-13 21:11:12

My DD also very allergic to egg (epi pen) and MMR was fine.


2tiredtocare Tue 15-Oct-13 21:12:11

I can understand why you are scared but measles would be much worse and have an even longer recovery time IYSWIM

peppersquint Tue 15-Oct-13 21:12:19

You may be risking my child by not vaccinating yours - surely it's a two-way thing or is your DC more important than another's DC?

SunshineMMum Tue 15-Oct-13 21:13:37

I am pretty cheesed off that within two weeks of the MMR, my son lost most of his language, his expression and his non verbal communication. I also pretty peeved that during this time he has suffered excruciating bowel spasms, has since been hospitalised three times, has on going bowel problems, requires daily medication and yet the paediatrician washed his hands and refused to investigate, whilst his registrar said we need to get to the bottom o this.

I am saddened that he suffers ezema and asthma as I feel this relates to a compromised immune system. I am equally fed up that it took three different assessments (one private) to diagnose his autism and yet the medical profession refuse to acknowledge and link between diet, immunisation and the behavioural traits of autism.

ICameOnTheJitney Tue 15-Oct-13 21:14:31

OP are you certain that you won't be able to find a private practice willing to do it seperately?

FlapJackOLantern Tue 15-Oct-13 21:15:04

The same America where children get gunned down in schools that now have to have security guards. A country that thinks its citizens should have personal freedom to bear arms but not to opt out of vaccinations.

That the most ridiculous analogy I've ever heard PrimalLass !

Bahhhhhumbug Tue 15-Oct-13 21:16:04

I am with you OP , my DGD has CF and so any of these preventable childhood diseases could seriously harm her long term already compromised health. Her having the vaccinations otoh isn't ideal either so l know exactly what you mean and it would be good if she didn't have to risk either.

Blissx Tue 15-Oct-13 21:17:52

You have absolutely every right to feel like this, but you are also right to appreciate that people have the right to choose. And I say this as someone who lost my then 36 year old brother in 2001 to measles shortly after the Andrew Wakefield articles. He was working as a TA in a primary school and after tests were carried out, the carrier was a child who was having the separate vaccines but as there is such a long wait between them, was still able to pass on the disease. No GP my brother visited had ever seen the disease and failed to diagnose quickly enough. After the initial anger period, I realised it wasn't the parents' fault and they could not have known this would happen. I'm sorry your little one is so vulnerable, but you may just have to put this one out of your mind.

CocktailQueen Tue 15-Oct-13 21:18:03

Yabu to expect other people to immunise their dc to protect yours. Everyone has the right to make up their own minds, whether or not there are extenuating health issues.

Why can't you have the single jabs, op?

I'm sorry you're so worried.

I'm old enough to have had mumps and measles as a child as there wasn't vaccination - the risk of complications is pretty low surely confused

I'm not anti vaccination though - separate issue.

CocktailQueen Tue 15-Oct-13 21:19:09

Blissx, I am so sorry for your loss sad

TheGlovesAreOrf Tue 15-Oct-13 21:19:22

Icame not so far. There is one I havent tried and Im sitting on my hands. Do I want to risk doing it in a building which is basically a home, not in a hosiptal?
They wont vaccinate against mumps, because the individual vaccine of mumps no longer exists.

Mumps is on the rise, which is usually not too horrendous, but his body doesnt cope with illness well and he uses steroids in the winter, when illness is mostly around.

Weighing up the pros and cons, Ive leant towards just giving him the whole lot, under hospital guidance.

And for who mentioned it, yes of course measles would be worse. Which is why we (I) have decided for the vaccine rather than leave it.

From what Ive heard, its not a case of if he gets measles but when.

peggyundercrackers Tue 15-Oct-13 21:19:55

YANBU to worry about your child however YABU to think everyone else should do it no matter what. I also don't believe parents should be FORCED to give any vaccine to child or adult for that matter - its my body I say what goes into it - if the medical profession were more honest about what they do/don't know I might feel differently but they are a bunch of lying fucks who don't care about anyone and think they are gods. fuck them!

Alisvolatpropiis Tue 15-Oct-13 21:20:19


People like your son rely on herd immunity.

josephinebruce Tue 15-Oct-13 21:20:24

You are NBU. There will always be children, like yours, who at high risk and it is selfish and irresponsible for other parents to choose not to vaccinate their children. The reason why mumps, measles and rubella are not the killers they used to be is because of vaccination. Though, even now mumps can cause lasting fertility problems in boys who are exposed to it.

neunundneunzigluftballons Tue 15-Oct-13 21:20:44

YANBU there are risks with vaccination but they pale into insignificance when compared to the illnesses themselves in the majority of cases. Then there is the whole issue of herd immunity. IMO it is flawed risk perception not to vaccinate a child for most of the diseases on the vaccination scheme.

bigbrick Tue 15-Oct-13 21:21:24


TheGlovesAreOrf Tue 15-Oct-13 21:21:25

The risk of mumps and measles is low laurie?

elskovs Tue 15-Oct-13 21:22:29

That sounds so scary.

I don't understand why you have to vaccinate though? Cant you risk the infection the same as the others who choose not to vaccinate? Obviously not something to be taken lightly, but you have a good reason.

BrokenSunglasses Tue 15-Oct-13 21:23:10

sad for you.

YANBU to feel the way you do considering what you have been through.

I am very much against parents being forced to vaccinate their children, but I do think you have to have some sort of compromise with the rest of society.

If parents feel very strongly against vaccinating their children, and refuse to allow them to have any vaccinations for some reason, then I can understand that. What I don't understand is parents that don't think twice about the baby vaccinations, but then refuse to vaccinate their children against measles, mumps and rubella when there are alternatives to the MMR if they don't want to give that.

The only thing I would say is that probably, the low take up of the MMR in your area does not actually reflect how many children are unvaccinated against those illnesses. The GP surgery in our area does not have the ability to record the number of children that have single vaccines, the option just doesn't exist on their computers systems. Children either have MMR, or they are unvaccinated as far as the NHS is concerned, which is ridiculous considering how many clinics have made a fortune offering singles.

FreyaFridays Tue 15-Oct-13 21:26:41

The people asking why the OP can't just risk her child getting the illnesses anyway, instead of vaccinating... she's said quite clearly that he's got a compromised immune system, therefore it would be a serious risk to allow him to become infected.

The people saying that measles, mumps, etc, aren't risky illnesses... we vaccinate against them in the first place FOR A REASON. They are deadly diseases. We didn't develop a vaccine against them just for funs.

TheGlovesAreOrf Tue 15-Oct-13 21:27:39

I dont understand why he cant be vaccinated though?

Because the MMR rate in my area is low, because he is often on steroids, because measles can be deadly to those who havent got an immune system dampened by steroids, let a lone a tiny child who has.

I watched my baby brother nearly die from chicken pox because he was on the exact same steroids as my son, for the exact same reasons as my son.

He is getting the chicken pox vaccine first. I think. Hopefully. Maybe.

CoteDAzur Tue 15-Oct-13 21:27:57

YABU. I'm sorry about your DS but you are being hypocritical.

By that reasoning, your unvaccinated child is also risking other unvaccinated children's lives.

You don't want to take the risks you perceive to be important (eggs in MMR, mumps etc) but you think other parents should take these and other risks so you don't have to.

cafecito Tue 15-Oct-13 21:31:45

as a medic and as a mother of a child who had complete immunosuppression due to transplants I understand your posts entirely. However, you are being unreasonable in directing your anger at other people's free will to do what they consider, rightly or wrongly, to be in the best interests of their children, too.

The risk of complications is low Gloves smile

Measles I was spotty for 10 days and felt rough for the first few, all feverish. Mumps I had a horrible sore throat/glands for a week or so.

HappyHalloweenMollyHooper Tue 15-Oct-13 21:33:19

I don't agree with what you're saying but as a mother, it makes sense.

If that makes sense?

You just want your child to be safe.

I wish I had some useful information/experience to give you.

FortyDoorsToNowhere Tue 15-Oct-13 21:33:24


I really doubt it was the MMR injection. My son has autism and i have been on about 3 courses about autism.

The parents I have been on the course with I would say 80% of parents have said the same thing.

I think my son is starting to lose some of his speech again, he is stuttering a far bit more.

SanctimoniousArse Tue 15-Oct-13 21:33:54

My dd cannot be vaccinated OP but no way do I think other parents should be either forced too or guilt tripped into vaccinating. It's a choice. She was on steroids lots too (once in hospital with a child with chickenpox in the next cubicle. Bad hospital management if you ask me)
I just ask that the school make sure I'm notified if any child has measles. I'm not worried about mums. dd caught rubella and chickenpox already (fortunetaly between steroids). To be honest, given her serious chest issues she is more at risk of those parents who send their kids into school with bad colds, coughs and flu. Any of those could kill her.

loveandsmiles Tue 15-Oct-13 21:35:00

YABU ~ I am sorry for your situation, but you don't know others ~ this is a free country with free choice. None of my DC are vaccinated for my own personal reasons ~ everyone of us is different and make different choices to the benefit of ourselves.

ziggiestardust Tue 15-Oct-13 21:35:49

We have a history of vaccinations going very wrong in our family; SIL is still brain damaged as a result of one of hers.

When I went to the doctor to ask and discuss my worries over my son; they were extremely dismissive and effectively shrugged off my worries. He had an egg intolerance at the time which resulted in him being really quite ill until we figured out what it was. When I asked the vaccine nurse which vaccines were egg based, and if we might be at risk, she changed her mind twice in 30 seconds over which ones weren't/were egg based, and told me we'd probably be fine. Yes, probably we would've been fine, but what if we weren't?

DS is now 3 and we are starting on a course of the recommended vaccinations this month. He has grown out of his egg intolerance and has put on weight well (very low birth weight and failed to thrive for a time). I relied on herd immunity until I felt his system would be strong enough to take it, (it's the DPT vaccine which we have history with). I am paying for him to have single MMR vaccines after Christmas.

Maybe I haven't done it by the book, but I did what I believed was best at the time.

Once you've seen an adverse reaction to a vaccine... I don't know. My MIL has never forgiven herself sad

trixymalixy Tue 15-Oct-13 21:38:42

Both my DC are allergic to egg (epipen carrying too), they were both fine with the MMR, they had it in hospital too. I waited until they were 3 until I gave them it.

The take up of MMR has gone up massively recently due to that scare. I think if I was in your shoes I wouldn't vaccinate given how allergic to all chicken parts your child is.

2tiredtocare Tue 15-Oct-13 21:39:14

Surely more people have died/become severely ill as a result of contracting measles as opposed to receiving MMR

goodasitgets Tue 15-Oct-13 21:39:50

I haven't had it. Was anaphylactic to egg (am not now)
Doctor advised my mum not to give it as I'd already stopped breathing from egg in her BM

TheGlovesAreOrf Tue 15-Oct-13 21:42:10

Yes cote its called herd immunity. Healthy children get immunised so those who are genuinely ill and vaccines are potentially detrimental to them, dont have to.

I didnt choose for my son to have serious health problems, but I do choose to vaccinate.

Im not contradicting myself, I am pro vaccine. I would vaccinate every child I had. But I have one which is hugely, hugely at risk. Because of this, I shouldnt have to.

If all healthy children were vaccinated, my unvaccintaed child would not be putting them at risk.

TheGlovesAreOrf Tue 15-Oct-13 21:46:05

Trixy I was planning in waiting. But because if all his health issues, day and night Im being pulled, needed and demanded constantly. His health issues are constant. I really need a break. I want him to start nursery next year, but dont want him to start unvaccinated.

So I could postpone it.

But I think he will be allergic when he is 3, even when he is 4. I dont think things will improve for some time.

How long do I risk measles for? My eldest (vaccinated!) son got measles last year. Thankfully my youngest didnt get it. But its been on our doorstep, we have measles in our house.
Do I risk that again?

CoteDAzur Tue 15-Oct-13 21:55:01

I know what "herd immunity" is.

Do you know what "hypocrisy" is?

Your child is unvaccinated because you perceive the vaccine to be dangerous but you are "fucked off" that other parents have not vaccinated their DC because they perceive the vaccine to be dangerous.

Again, I'm sorry about your DS but you need to consider the possibility that other people might have reasons not to vaccinate, too.

2tiredtocare Tue 15-Oct-13 21:57:38

So when there was a huge measles outbreak in Wales we are to presume that all the unvaccinated children had underlying health conditions

TheGlovesAreOrf Tue 15-Oct-13 21:59:29

YES dangerous for my son and his health issues, you rude, sarcastic, patronising person.

How common IS it for a child to have an egg, chicken and feather allergy? I.e the WHOLE chicken.

The MMR isnt risky for the average child. It is risky for those rare, rare few with health issues.

Im saying if all healthy children (i.e those who arent at risk having the MMR) were vaccinated then those who did have health issues that put em at risk would no longer be at risk.

Alisvolatpropiis Tue 15-Oct-13 21:59:30


Apparently so - all of them hmm

Alisvolatpropiis Tue 15-Oct-13 22:01:07


Unlike the OP some parents are factually incorrect in their belief the vaccines are dangerous for their children.

Jan49 Tue 15-Oct-13 22:01:28

OP, if someone's child is left severely brain damaged by a vaccine, do you still think they owed it to you to have their child vaccinated to protect your child? So your child's safety is more important than their child's safety?

Do you drive? Do you accept that if you do, you are increasing the risk of a road traffic accident death for other people including my dc? Can I demand that you don't drive? Why should my child's risk be increased by your selfish decisions? I don't drive.

pixiepotter Tue 15-Oct-13 22:02:53

yabu your child is at risk from contracting theswe diseases from other children who can't be immunised, those who are too young to be immunised and those who have been immunised but still caught them, as well as those who choose not to immunise

TheGlovesAreOrf Tue 15-Oct-13 22:04:09

Jan who has been severely brain damaged by a vaccine?

TheGlovesAreOrf Tue 15-Oct-13 22:06:22

Exactly pixie it makes it so much worse. Im not sure why Iabu in that sense, since I totally agree with you.

The whole point of the MMR is to lower the risk, or at best eradicate it altogether. The younger ones and those who cant be vaccinated should be protected by that.

You aregued my point. And told me I was BU......?

MangroveGirl Tue 15-Oct-13 22:06:40

Ds had measles at 5 months. Rang doctor who said he would not know what measles looked like. I treated my son at home.
When it became time for the MMR I was in 2 minds, the deciding factor for me was a doctor on tv who talked about how todays mothers do not remember the 1960's when if you got measles you died.
As someone who remembered the 1960's and like her classmates was positively encouraged to contract measles, german measles (rubella) and chickenpox early to get them out of the way and like my classmates wasn't dead I decided against the vaccine. Ds has since had chicken pox and rubella.
I am sure that there are children out there who won't sail thru these illnesses as my ds did but for me I have come across more problems with vaccines than with the illnesses themselves.
Maybe I am of a different generation but my worry for those that have no opportunity to get these illnesses and who are not vaccinated as children is these illnesses are all so much worse when contracted as an adult.

CoteDAzur Tue 15-Oct-13 22:06:46

Alis - You don't know who those parents are.

Is this your first vaccine thread? Stick around a bit and you will see quite a few parents who have a vaccine-damaged child and siblings they have not vaccinated as a result.

2tiredtocare Tue 15-Oct-13 22:07:08

Those who are too young to be immunised would be protected by herd immunity too

2tiredtocare Tue 15-Oct-13 22:08:20

If all those children living in the same area had a vaccine damaged sibling there should be a public enquiry HTH

ubik Tue 15-Oct-13 22:09:42

OP I don't think you are being unreasonable at all.

PrimalLass Tue 15-Oct-13 22:11:27

The same America where children get gunned down in schools that now have to have security guards. A country that thinks its citizens should have personal freedom to bear arms but not to opt out of vaccinations.

That the most ridiculous analogy I've ever heard PrimalLass!

How is it ridiculous? My friend lived in CA and said they were so freaked by these childhood illnesses that a case of chickenpox would make the state news. I find it crazy that they can have such double standards about which civil liberties they support.

CoteDAzur Tue 15-Oct-13 22:14:21

Mangrove - Like you, I had all childhood diseases and so did all my peers, relatives, friends, and their friends. I had measles twice, actually - once as a baby, and then at the age of 8.

"my worry for those that have no opportunity to get these illnesses and who are not vaccinated as children is these illnesses are all so much worse when contracted as an adult"

I agree.

nennypops Tue 15-Oct-13 22:16:26

YANBU. Yes, there are children who are at risk from vaccine and they should not have to be vaccinated. But they are really a tiny minority. The rest of our children should be vaccinated in order to protect that minority, and indeed for their own good. It really is not so long since children died or were seriously brain damaged as a result of getting measles, and I certainly could see no point in risking that for my children.

2tiredtocare Tue 15-Oct-13 22:17:25

So you are disproportionately worried about adverse vaccination effects but feel able to dismiss measles deaths out of hand cote very odd

MrsDeVere Tue 15-Oct-13 22:17:38

OP I totally understand your anger and your conflicting feelings.
My DD had no immune system.

It is a horrible thing to deal with.

I suppose I have come to the conclusion that I wish everyone who could, would vax.
I now understand that non vaxers are not all mad hippies.

I save my ire for the fuckwits who knowingly take their infected children out rather than the people who put a lot of thought into whether they should vax their kids or not.

I am sorry to hear about your DS's health problems. It is terribly stressful.


Dementedhousewife Tue 15-Oct-13 22:18:13

The Glovesareoff, my sister is severely damaged by a vaccination, she suffered a sudden collapse within minutes of the jab, she was left brain damaged and has suffered from a rare chronic form of Guilliane Barre syndrome ever since. We chose not to vaccinate our DC. It happens thankfully its rare but it happens. I won't vaccinate my DC.
There are other parents on this site who have also suffered vaccine damage maybe you should consider their children too.

PumpkinGuts Tue 15-Oct-13 22:18:15

if the individual vaccine is Ok why can't you get it as a prescription because of your dc allergy?

puntasticusername Tue 15-Oct-13 22:18:40

I am confused by those saying op is being hypocritical by not getting her own child vaccinated.

Er. Yes, she is. Read the post!


CoteDAzur Tue 15-Oct-13 22:18:47

"The rest of our children should be vaccinated in order to protect that minority"

That is an ethically indefensible position: Arguing that a tiny baby should take a risk (albeit very small) for the sake of someone else.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Tue 15-Oct-13 22:19:39

The Op is not being hypocritical

The Ops child has anaphylactic reactions to the constituent parts of a chicken. It is perfectly reasonable, and scientifically sound, to suspect that he may have an adverse reactions to an albumen containing vaccine.

Many, many people who do not vaccinate do not make this decision because of sound medical reasons. They fail to vaccinate because they are lazy, or were misled about the mmr autism link.

The Op and others who have sound medical reasons not to vaccinate are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Everyone else who fails to vaccinate is being ignorant and selfish.

Bowlersarm Tue 15-Oct-13 22:19:41

I don't think you should force people to do this.

I'm sorry. I know it's not a popular mn viewpoint.

Dementedhousewife Tue 15-Oct-13 22:20:59

Exactly Cote, I won't take that risk for someone elses child. Sorry my children are my priority.

TheGlovesAreOrf Tue 15-Oct-13 22:21:29

As I said above Pumpkin, no where will do it privately. The NHS dont do it. And the Mumps single vaccine doesnt exist anyway.

dementedma Tue 15-Oct-13 22:23:02

Sorry op, but their child, their choice.
We chose not to have Ds vaccinated as he was born at the height of the MMR scare. Not a decision we took lightly, believe me. He finally had the vaccine before starting high school last year at the age of 11. Again not a decision we took lightly.
I am sorry your Ds is ill but like any parents, we make decisions based on what we believe is best for our son, not someone else's. As you do.

TheGlovesAreOrf Tue 15-Oct-13 22:23:12

Bowler I agree, I dont think anyone should be forced. I didnt say they should have to be.

ubik Tue 15-Oct-13 22:25:09

FWIW I know two people who have not vaccinated their children - one on advice from her herbalist hmm and my cousin's girlfriend who wants to keep everything natural - Y'know natural like smallpox hmm

StillSlightlyCrumpled Tue 15-Oct-13 22:25:59

Agree totally with MrsD. DS2 has a compromised immune system. He was vaccinated very late & I was very concerned when measles was local to us. However, I also save my fury & frustration for the parents that insist on sending their poorly infectious child to school / clubs etc where he is likely to catch whatever they have.

CoteDAzur Tue 15-Oct-13 22:27:40

Yes, OP's child is allergic. And other people's children have other problems and/or have certain allergies/health problems/relevant antecedents.

I understand why OP is "fucked off" but that doesn't give her the right to tell other parents they have to vaccinate their children to reduce risks for hers.

TheGlovesAreOrf Tue 15-Oct-13 22:33:35

cote Im not saying those who have allergic kids/kids with health issues should vaccinate their child for the sake of mine.

I clearly stated that I think healthy children not at risk should be vaccinated to protect those at risk.

Whats not to get? Its not getting in there though, is it cote?

Alisvolatpropiis Tue 15-Oct-13 22:35:32


No it isn't and being patronising doesn't strengthen your point.

FortyDoorsToNowhere Tue 15-Oct-13 22:36:36

Any injection carries risk.

When DC had the MMR I decided the risk was worth taking, I work in a hospital and as I am not medical staff I am not told what infections a patient has. Also I planned to send my DC to school. I felt that my children was higher at risk from these infections so for me it was a sensible risk

To some the risk is not worth it for their child.

ubik Tue 15-Oct-13 22:36:50

Well it does give her the right Cote. What right do these people have to not to vaccinate their healthy children so that these diseases can eradicated?

She has the best reason to be angry.

missinglalaland Tue 15-Oct-13 22:37:04

My children are fully vaccinated.

Bowlersarm Tue 15-Oct-13 22:37:57

OP that was quite rude to cote.

I know it's heart wrenching for you, but I really don't think you should be able to dictate who makes their children have the vaccination.

FortyDoorsToNowhere Tue 15-Oct-13 22:39:31

I read some where that MMR contains gelatine so people who lead a vegan diet will not vaccinate due to that reason.

bumbleymummy Tue 15-Oct-13 22:39:35

Some GPs will bring in the single measles vaccine for a named patient. Have you approached any private clinics? There is an egg-free measles vaccine available so I'm not sure why you think they would turn you away.

Alisvolatpropiis Tue 15-Oct-13 22:42:48

Forty I have read that too. I struggle to support non vaccination based on life style choices the parents have made given it could well risk their child's health.

TheGlovesAreOrf Tue 15-Oct-13 22:42:54

Bowler yes it was, wasnt it?

I havent been rude to anyone else.

But then, no one but cote has been rude to me. Repetatively.

dementedma Tue 15-Oct-13 22:43:33

I agree with cote
My child, my choice.

TheGlovesAreOrf Tue 15-Oct-13 22:44:27

there is an egg free measles vaccine

Really? Ive asked countless GP's and paeditricians, they all say the same thing, they simply arent available on the NHS....

TheGlovesAreOrf Tue 15-Oct-13 22:44:49

How do I find out for sure that it is? We are seeing them on wednesday.....

bumbleymummy Tue 15-Oct-13 22:46:29

Just on another note - most people don't realise that their child is at risk from having the vaccine until after they've had the vaccine and had a reaction so saying that people should have it unless they know it is contraindicated for their child doesn't really make sense. It would be nice if we could determine the children who are more likely to have a reaction but at the moment you are telling people that they should all take a risk so your child doesn't have to. I think that's a bit unreasonable.

CoteDAzur Tue 15-Oct-13 22:48:07

"I think healthy children not at risk should be vaccinated to protect those at risk."

And I said that is an ethically indefensible position: Arguing that a tiny baby should take a risk (albeit very small) for the sake of someone else.

I am sorry for your DS, but YABU to think you can tell parents of the world what to do about their DC's healthcare.

AgadorSpartacus Tue 15-Oct-13 22:48:19

The OP isn't actually telling anybody anything though isshe?

Talk about running with the bloody ball.

She is venting on here and desperately wishing it was different for the sake of her child.

Let's not let a bit of empathy (and actually reading the words) (all of them) get in the way of good snarl.

bumbleymummy Tue 15-Oct-13 22:50:04

Try the private clinics. I'm not sure where you are in the country but there's bound to be one near you. It's the SII vaccine that is egg free rather than Rouvax (the other single measles vaccine). I've been told that GPs can bring them in for individual patients but I'm guessing that they don't advertise it too readily!

AgadorSpartacus Tue 15-Oct-13 22:50:11

Who are these parents of the world she's telling?


Bogeyface Tue 15-Oct-13 22:50:41

I can understand your anger, the whole point of the immunisation program was to provide herd immunity that protected those that couldnt have the injections. My DD reacted so badly to her first ever injection that we were told she should not have any more. My other children have had their administered by doctors (and none of them have had MMR) and all have had bad (although not as bad) reactions. For that reason, my youngest hasnt had any. We are lucky we have 93% take up here which is only 2% off herd immunity in the Polio/Diptheria etc one.

But the MMR is below 80% and now we have to find a way to get DD immunised against Ruebella. My SIL has a profound disability because MIL got Ruebella during her pregnancy so I am terrified for DD. She almost died of Chicken Pox too, so the thought of what could happen to her if she got measles etc, well I cant think about it.

BUt....we do live in a country where these things are not a legal requirement and I have to accept that yes, some people are selfish and lazy and we have to find workarounds for that.

TheGlovesAreOrf Tue 15-Oct-13 22:50:44

I am absolutely not arguing that a tiny baby should be vaccinated.

They arent vaccinated until 14 months (or there abouts) if all healthy children (although I get your point there bumble) got vaccinated, the children at risk and the babies (as I mentioned above) would be at much, much less risk. Eventually the diseases would hopefully be eradicated altogether.

TheGlovesAreOrf Tue 15-Oct-13 22:51:55

Bumble please, please read my posts. Or even my OP. Ive tried private clinics.

AnaisHellWitch Tue 15-Oct-13 22:52:41

Absolutely. DS had a very bad reaction (D&V for weeks, couldn't keep water down, permanent bowel damage) but at the time we didn't know enough about autism to realise that he was autistic and at risk.

Second MMR was delayed a year or two. I would be wary of giving it so early (if at all) to another DC with DS' traits.

Good luck finding a way to keep your child safe, OP. I know how worrying it must be.

TheGlovesAreOrf Tue 15-Oct-13 22:53:18

Argh sorry bumble its ME who should read YOUR posts properly!

I whole heartedly apologise! I will ask the hospital again. And ring the private practice that I havent tried.

bumbleymummy Tue 15-Oct-13 22:53:58

Bogeyface, there is a single rubella vaccine available. Might be worth having a blood test though. I'm not sure how old your DD is but rubella is very mild and she may have already had it without you knowing what it was.

Bogeyface Tue 15-Oct-13 22:58:14

THanks BUmble I know but my worry is that (like the OP) a private clinic wont want to do it for the risk of a major reaction. Tbh I would probably rather she had it in an NHS hospital as there are more specialists on the the premises than in a private clinic.

Will get her the blood test. She had her cervical cancer jabs ok (but dont get me started on the school nurse who insisted if she didnt have them at school she wouldnt get them at all........angry)

bumbleymummy Tue 15-Oct-13 22:59:09

That's ok gloves - lots of posting going on! I hope you can track one down. They seem to be quite widely available and I know a few people who decided to get them for their children even though they had much milder egg allergies than your little boy seems to have! If you can track one down then your GP/paediatrician might agree to administer it for you. Could be tricky though confused

bumbleymummy Tue 15-Oct-13 23:01:04

That's awful bogey. :-/

ArgyMargy Tue 15-Oct-13 23:02:14

YABU. You can't make the world revolve around you and your own particular circumstances. Although of course you are entitled to be cross about it.

CoteDAzur Tue 15-Oct-13 23:04:01

"What right do these people have to not to vaccinate their healthy children so that these diseases can eradicated?"

(1) It is almost impossible to eradicate a disease through a voluntary vaccination program

(2) Parents have all the right not to vaccinate their children.

Bogeyface Tue 15-Oct-13 23:04:06

Stupid cow! She scared DD stupid after DD gave her the letter that I had written explaining that yes of course we wanted her to have it (I was having 6 monthly smears at the time due to nasty cells, so of course I did!). She said that DD must have it at school at the GP wasnt allowed to give it to her!

It took a very snotty letter from me followed by a phone call to the deputy head saying that if they were happy to accept the responsibilty of DD having a major seizure in their care, when they knew the risks, then of course she could have it at school.

They werent that keen........funny that hmm

80sMum Tue 15-Oct-13 23:05:08

I'm another oldie who, along with my sisters and pretty well every child in my school (and every other school, for that matter) caught measles, mumps, rubella and chickenpox in early childhood. We had all had all of them by the age of 10.
My mother had managed to escape mumps as a child, but she caught it from my sister and me. My sister agotnd I got better within days; my mother got worse. Complications set in and she then had encephalitis, which resulted in a six-week stay in isolation hospital and very nearly killed her.
So, I agree that these diseases are far more dangerous for adults than for children.

Bogeyface Tue 15-Oct-13 23:10:40

But some children do get very very sick and thats why herd immunity is so important, and why I think that the CP vaccine should be made available on the NHS.

I held my DD through the night with her chicken pox (which exDH had at the same time and was poorly but not very ill with), and the fear of whether each breath she took would be her last was like nothing I could ever describe. I am actually tearing up thinking about it.

But, other parents make their choice and we have to deal with that as best we can.

foreverondiet Tue 15-Oct-13 23:13:02

Yanbu - totally agree. Of course there are risks with vaccines but why is my child more precious than anyone else's (ie wouldn't it be wonderful if we could all rely on herd immunity!!!) - of course immune compromised children / children with egg allergies should be able to rely on herd immunity. I agree those who don't vaccine are selfish - and I think that schools should be able to add vaccination criteria into admissions policies etc. But suspect that not everyone shares my views.

CoteDAzur Tue 15-Oct-13 23:15:20

"Of course there are risks with vaccines but why is my child more precious than anyone else's"

Your child is not more precious to you than a stranger's? hmm

Just when you start thinking you've seen everything on MN...

leavesalmondoutofit Tue 15-Oct-13 23:25:44

I'm sure there would be a better uptake if separate vaccines were allowed. Our DSs had separate vaccines for measles. Both had mumps before they were due for the jabs and they are boys so don't need the rubella vaccine.


Boys were not offered rubella back when this vaccine was introduced. This was because the rubella risk is to the developing foetus so only girls were immunised. Unimmunised boys or anyone who has not been vaccinated, and who have rubella can infect unimmunised females of any age. Just in case you want to revise your information. Hope that makes sense I am off to bed.

lessonsintightropes Tue 15-Oct-13 23:26:57

Just a total counter experience and not to take away from any others experiences here - my Ma didn't vaccinate any of us (70s - 80s) and I had chicken pox, mumps, and measles (did get a rubella vaccine at 13 at school). Didn't have a permanent impact on me and she took us to virus parties in school holidays in order to get the disease in a mild form when we were otherwise well in order to build our immunity. Whilst I am not sure whether I'd do the same with my own, there were no long lasting impacts for me or my three siblings.

Perihelion Tue 15-Oct-13 23:27:01

80smum they can hit children badly too. Had mumps in the 70's when I was 4. Like your mum, I had encephalitis and nearly died.

PansOnFire Tue 15-Oct-13 23:32:20

YANBU. You're really not. I'm sorry you're in this predicament Gloves, thinking of you and your DS. There should be better provisions in place for all children regarding vaccinations, there will never be agreement as far as the vaccine debate goes but actually, the OP is right, in principal.

PansOnFire Tue 15-Oct-13 23:32:53

Argh principle obviously

ErrolTheDragon Tue 15-Oct-13 23:41:51

YANBU to be pissed off by this situation.

There was an immune-compromised child in DDs primary school; the HT sent us a letter asking us to check that our children were up to date with their vaccinations and to stay off school if exposed to chickenpox. Seemed entirely sensible, I didn't hear anyone complain about it.

The ethics become clearer when the child who needs herd protection is a known individual, perhaps.

fluffypillow Tue 15-Oct-13 23:46:17


We are LUCKY to have these vaccines.

katese11 Tue 15-Oct-13 23:49:10

Agree with pps that the point of herd immunity is to protect vulnerable kids like the op s. but due to free choice, herd immunity isn't always available.

Pretty much everyone who has strong views on vax had personal reasons for having them so I'm gonna Wade in with mine. Wasn't going to but whoever said that mothers encouraged children to get measles in the 60s gave me the rage. I know for a fact that my mother didn't deliberately infect her baby with measles but she contracted it just the same. And died. That was in 1970. That's my sister lost to a preventable disease, so I'm pro vax.

Currently I have a boy who's being assessed for autism. I don't believe the Wakefield crap but in my darker moments, I do wonder if I did this to him. Then I remember that he is here and she is not and I don't care any more. I made the right choice.

My fully emotive, fully biased take on measles and why we should protect those who can't be vaxed.

blissx I'm so sorry for your loss

nennypops Tue 15-Oct-13 23:50:17

Cote: ""The rest of our children should be vaccinated in order to protect that minority"

That is an ethically indefensible position: Arguing that a tiny baby should take a risk (albeit very small) for the sake of someone else.

You have artistically left out of your quote the bit where I pointed out that they should be vaccinated also to protect themselves. Why would that be, I wonder?

And my post made it clear that it should be those children who are not at risk from vaccination who should be vaccinated. Yes, there is still a tiny risk of their being harmed by the vaccine, but it is still smaller than the risk involved in catching the diseases in question. Life is all about balancing risk. Every time someone puts their tiny baby in the car to go and visit the relatives they are subjecting that baby to risk, but no-one suggests that the relatives must go without that visit.

Babcia Wed 16-Oct-13 00:19:23

Not unreasonable- I honestly believe you should have a medical exemption signed by a doctor in order to avoid vaccinations for your kids. Either don't let them start school or stop child benefit. I nearly died as a baby from a reaction to the MMR when it had first come in (showing my age!) so I never got the boosters at school on medical advice, but I was vaccinated for everything else, and I had to have an mmr booster recently to live abroad with the army or they wouldn't let me go. Every child who can needs to be vaccinated so kids like yours can avoid it.

Wibblypiglikesbananas Wed 16-Oct-13 00:21:01

I absolutely sympathise with you OP. What a heartbreaking position to be in. Would it be possible to get your DC immunised overseas somehow?

I live in the US (but British). There are a few crazy theories on this thread re vaccination here that I'd like to clear up.

Yes, generally, children do have to be vaccinated before they start any form of state education, childcare, daycare etc. Personally, I think this is a good thing (and you can obviously be exempted due to medical history). However, it's extremely hard to generalise as each state has its own rules and it's generally hard to find private schools that won't obey state laws.

PrimalLass - I agree, some of the American politics stuff is crazy, and don't get me started on the guns! However, to compare that issue with immunisation is just ridiculous.

PrimalLass Wed 16-Oct-13 00:36:02

PrimalLass - I agree, some of the American politics stuff is crazy, and don't get me started on the guns! However, to compare that issue with immunisation is just ridiculous.

It isn't ridiculous to me because it removes one set of civil liberties from parents while upholding one that is far more dangerous.

Mellowandfruitful Wed 16-Oct-13 00:45:30

YANBU and I wish we did have compulsory vaccination here for exactly this sort of reason.

You can argue that America displays some contrary attitudes to personal freedom, if you like, but that does not mean that one element of that - ie an insistence on vaccination - is necessarily wrong. Arguably it would support the idea that we should do the same on vaccination because then we would have the benefit of full herd immunity without the crazy gun stuff.

Bogeyface Wed 16-Oct-13 01:07:29

I honestly believe you should have a medical exemption signed by a doctor in order to avoid vaccinations for your kids.

But you only have to try and get your child assessed or helped witha condition that your GP doesnt have experience with to know how hard that can be! It can take years to get a firm diagnosis of ASD if your child doesnt display the "classic" characteristics, you only have the read the SN boards on MN to see that.

Getting a GP to agree to sign an exemption, or refer to a medical committee that could make such decisions, would by almost impossible with some GPs. And lets not forget that the reason such rules are in place in the US is not to protect the children, but to protect the institution involved from litigation if a child caught measles (say) and then was very ill or passed away as a result.

Bogeyface Wed 16-Oct-13 01:08:58

My eldest DD would pass such an assessment, but my younger children wouldnt. Am I BU to have not had my youngest immunised after the violent reaction she had and the very bad reactions the other had? I dont think so, but the "medical exemption board" would.

itshotintexas Wed 16-Oct-13 01:16:06

Same as the poster on pg1, the US does not make immunisation compulsory to go to school. you are able to opt out and sign a declaration to that effect.

Sunnysummer Wed 16-Oct-13 01:51:10

YANBU, and good luck with the vaccinations.

Lack of herd immunity is why my sister is terrified of taking my CF nephew to playgroups let alone school in her trendy London suburb, and why my friend's baby DD died of organ failure following a visit from an unvaccinated toddler with whooping cough.

People discuss vaccinations as though it is a personal decision, but it is in fact one they are making on behalf of other people - their child, and also the people their child comes into contact with, particularly the vulnerable elderly, young and immune suppressed. Perhaps we need a public education campaign not just on the vaccines but on the severity of the diseases they prevent - children in iron lungs from polio, in intensive care wards with measles, young men who will never have children following mumps and mothers who have lost children to rubella. I have a science background, and normally deal in facts, buy the pictures of my friend's daughter with wires all over her tiny body as she tried and failed to battle pneumonia after pertussis were the most convincing vaccination message that I have ever received.

Bogeyface Wed 16-Oct-13 02:17:55

Bobby Hill was three months old when he went into an iron lung.

I just sobbed my heart out at this photo.

This is what immunisations have prevented happening to our children, this is why vaccination is not just about your child.

DalekInAFestiveJumper Wed 16-Oct-13 03:25:33

I live in the US. I've worked in education in several states. In each of these you could sign a waiver to avoid immunization. Doing so is so popular, in fact, that we're having a resurgence of certain illnesses. The chicken pox is still very common here, and not newsworthy in any region I've lived in.

Jengnr Wed 16-Oct-13 06:01:20

It's such a first world fucking problem this isn't it? Do we vaccinate or not? Wa wa wa.

ALL healthy children should be immunised because children like the one on the OP need it to happen. As do the rest of us, especially the vulnerable. Over privileged parents putting everyone else at risk. It's irresponsible at best.

ArgyMargy Wed 16-Oct-13 07:57:01

And what about flu? This year all 2 & 3 year olds will be called for this. Flu vaccination is notoriously ineffective, could predispose people to catching other flu strains in future years, and never reaches herd immunity levels. It's easy to see why healthcare professionals avoid it even when they are pressured to do it by their employers. I have never had flu, neither has my husband or any member if my immediate family. So is everyone happy to get their DToddlers done?

ArgyMargy Wed 16-Oct-13 07:57:26


Altinkum Wed 16-Oct-13 08:02:54

My son won't be getting the MMR for exactly the reasons you state OP, the risk to him is more higher than him getting the MMR, of course I rely on herd immunity, however it's all I have for him, as I'm not going to give him a injection that is 100% going to send him into anaphylaxis.

My other child does have his MMR.

sashh Wed 16-Oct-13 08:12:36

PrimalLass how do you think the single are/were made?

OP YANBU it is the parent's choice, but if it is not for medical reasons then that child should (I know impossible to do) be limited in where they are allowed to go.

emmyloo2 Wed 16-Oct-13 08:16:17


Absolutely agree 100% with you. Just vaccinate your bloody children if they are healthy. Why on earth people think they know more than the hundreds and hundreds of experts is beyond me. It should be compulsory for all healthy children.

TheGlovesAreOrf Wed 16-Oct-13 08:26:48

Altkin, is he allergic to the whole chicken?

samu2 Wed 16-Oct-13 08:33:42


Pisses me off when people don't vax because they have read some shit on google and decided they know better than all the people who have been studying this stuff for years and actually have the qualifications to know what they are talking about.

I feel that as a member of society it is an obligation for me to vax my children to help the children who genuinely can't be vaxxed due to medical conditions.

All healthy children should be vaxxed, it is our duty as members of society to help protect those who are vulnerable.

My own children are my top priority for sure but I better have a darn good reason to not vax them and lower the herd immunity even more. For me, fear of autism and googling doesn't cut it.

Altinkum Wed 16-Oct-13 08:33:53

No, he can eat chicken, but cannot tollerate feathers of any sort, as well as most animinal dust, hair etc... (Needed to be resussed (cannot spell that for the life of me) after beig in contact with dogs!

He's acutely asthmatic, as well as eczema, he also has multiple life threatening allergies, and has a compromised immune system, due to loads of various factors.

Lots of medical advice been given and most are giants giving him it, only one doctor said he should have it, to protect other children, when asked about my child he wouldn't give a answer.

BrokenSunglasses Wed 16-Oct-13 08:44:45

The NHS has a lot to answer for in causing these problems IMO.

If they made single vaccines available, even at cost, to parents who have valid reason to be concerned, we would have higher levels of immunity.

If they were honest about how many children were vaccinated against mmr instead of leading parents like the OP to believe that immunity is low, despite many many parents using single vaccines, then maybe OP wouldn't feel the need to take this significant risk by getting her child vaccinated. My children are counted in statistics as being unvaccinated, despite their surgery being informed by a consultant paediatrician when they were vaccinated and when blood test results proved they have strong immunity.

If they admitted that some children are vaccine damaged and discussed this possibility with parents instead of pretending it never happens, then people would have more trust in them and may be more willing to take a very small risk because they know they the truth.

Instead, parents are made to feel like they can't really trust the NHS when it comes to MMR, and it's that that has lead to low uptake of MMR every bit as much as Wakefield IMO.

2tiredtocare Wed 16-Oct-13 08:53:26

We are lucky to have the choice, whopping cough is back on the rise and potentially deadly to newborns who can't be vaccinated against it

bumbleymummy Wed 16-Oct-13 08:58:26


Children who react badly to vaccines were healthy children before the vaccine. There is currently no way of knowing which children will suffer complications. They may very well be the ones who need not to be vaccinated.


I'm very sad to hear about your friends baby. There are increasing numbers of cases of WC around at the moment - not because of unvaccibated children (the uptake for the 5-in-1 is actually quite high) but because they have found that immunity to it wanes after a few years so most older children/adults are no longer immune and most of them don't even realise that this is possible so they end up infecting the vulnerable sad

bumbleymummy Wed 16-Oct-13 09:01:37

Emmyloo - my post to jegnr applies to you to. How should we figure out which of all the healthy children we vaccinate will react badly to the vaccine? Silly to say - 'all healthy children should be vaccinated.' Currently many people are having to base their decisions on their own family history - previous reactions to vaccines etc and usually without the support of doctors.

ubik Wed 16-Oct-13 09:07:48

we have eradicated smallpox

polio no longer exists in this country

ditto TB until recently

My mother remembers not being allowed to use public paddling pools due to risk of polio.

bumbleymummy Wed 16-Oct-13 09:08:59

Do you know why TB is back?

imofftolisdoonvarna Wed 16-Oct-13 09:09:24

Obviously if one of your children or another relative has had a severe adverse reaction to a vaccine then of course you will think twice about vaccinating and possibly not vaccinate at all. That is perfectly understandable and really is a separate issue.

However, given the tiny number of cases of vaccine damage compared to the massive decline in the rate of vaccination since the advent of the Internet, my guess would be that people are not avoiding vaccination due to experience of vaccine damage, but to reading bullshit on google and deciding that they don't want to 'pump little bodies full of rubbish' or some such bollocks. Which again is understandable - after all everyone just wants to do the best for their child, but why people think that the tiny bit of research they have done on the Internet is better than what experts have proved repeatedly, I have no idea.

TheGlovesAreOrf Wed 16-Oct-13 09:10:16

Altinkum who told you he should not be vaccinated? And in what way is his immune system compromised?

My son is the same and also has severe asthma and eczema.
Yet the paeditrician at Guy and St Thomas hospital flick away my concerns with an eye roll, and they are top allergy specialists in the UK. I dont know whether to find their reaction to my concerns reassuring or worrying...

sunshine I am sorry your child has this condition but do you understand that just because the onset of symptoms happened to roughly coincide with the vaccination has nothing to do with causation?

do you understand that if millions of children are vaccinated, and around 1% of people have autism, that in some cases the onset is bound to be around the same time?

Are you aware that Andrew Wakefield has been entirely discredited and that his 'research' was completely unscientific?

Do you know that onset of symptoms is usually around that age in unvaccinated children?

I am genuinely sorry for you and your son but you are barking up the wrong tree.

2tiredtocare Wed 16-Oct-13 09:16:38

I got my children vaccinated for their sake not as some sacrifice for other children, you never know what is going to happen in life but them contacting a potentially fatal disease is more likely than an adverse reaction

Sorry OP, but I have one son who will need 24 hour 1:1 care for the rest of his life. I don't need more & I'm not prepared to sacrifice then just in case they come across yours.

FWIW my friends had a child with very severe immune problems & they were far more concerned about everyday illnesses that everyone gets, or viruses that we all carry that don't make us sick than they were about any of the vaccine preventable diseases.

And FWIW my son caught rubella from a child who had had the vaccine (it didn't work), whooping cough is often spread by those up to date with their whooping cough vaccinations etc etc. A vaccination certificate doesn't automatically = safe.

Oh Christ not the 'parents are too stupid to recognise a regression' argument again. I must have imagined my child talking & the video from that time must be wrong, I'll tell my friend she imagined the post MMR seizures and the stay in ICU.

2tiredtocare Wed 16-Oct-13 09:22:44

Arggh, did the OP say every child bar hers should be vaccinated? Children with genuine medical reasons are not the norm, your child could benefit from herd immunity too

SunshineMMum Wed 16-Oct-13 09:27:10

'sunshine I am sorry your child has this condition but do you understand that just because the onset of symptoms happened to roughly coincide with the vaccination has nothing to do with causation?'

Of course, the fact that my child became unwell within days, lost speech/eye contact and still has ongoing unexplained bowel problems is completely circumstantial! Thankfully he is now able to speak, after intensive speech and other therapies which the government do not want to fund for children with autism.

bumbleymummy Wed 16-Oct-13 09:28:10

Also, to an earlier poster - according to the pHA there is no firm evidence that orchitis (possible complication of mumps) causes sterility.

bumbleymummy Wed 16-Oct-13 09:34:39

2tired - so how do we filter out the healthy children who are going to react badly? How do we determine their medical reasons?

ReallyTired Wed 16-Oct-13 09:35:04

There is a balance of risk with vacinations. Given how nasty Measles, Mumps and Rubella are it is not surprising that a vacination can hurt potentially vunerable children. Maybe there is a 1 in 500,000 chance that child will be damaged by a vacine, but stastically more children were damaged or killed by these virsuses than by the vacination. Ofcourse that is no comfort if your child is the 1 in 500,000 who is damaged.

In an ideal world we would wipe these diseases off the face of the earth, just like was achieved with smallpox. We need as many people as possible to have the MMR to achieve the eradication of measles, mumps and rubella. If measles, mumps and rubella were erradicated then no child would need to take the risk of vaccine damage.

Vacination injury is one of those areas where doctors become defensive because of fear of lawsuits. Prehaps we need some research to intentify which children are at greater risk of vacicne damage.

SunshineMMum Wed 16-Oct-13 09:39:47

'2tired - so how do we filter out the healthy children who are going to react badly? How do we determine their medical reasons?'

By allowing parents to make a reasoned choice, based on their child. I was heckled by DH and a group of mothers into having DS vaccinated.

Yes sunshine that is exactly what I'm saying. It is coincidental.

I am not minimising the difficulties and I understand you want to blame the vaccination but that doesn't make it true.

SunshineMMum Wed 16-Oct-13 09:47:09

heartispade you are completely pissing me now, off so I am going to bow out. We have had a paediatrician saying that he doesn't believe that children with autism have bowel problems and if they do it is anxiety. The medical profession are guilty of a complete whitewash.

Altinkum Wed 16-Oct-13 09:47:21

My sons consultant at the RVI, his burns consultant and his immunologist consultant are all against him having it, he isn't only just immune suppressed because of steroid usage, I wish it was just as simple as that.

He extensive medical needs which are complex, I'm happy with my choice and happy with the advice given to me, based on the facts about my son, his needs, not everyone else's.

ReallyTired Wed 16-Oct-13 09:53:10

"By allowing parents to make a reasoned choice, based on their child. I was heckled by DH and a group of mothers into having DS vaccinated."

I think the words "reasoned choice" are important. I don't believe that most parents have the education to make a reasoned choice. We need research to prehaps see if all the children whose parents believe that they were vaccined damaged share a common gene/ genes. I believe that autism is genetic and prehaps some children have a predisposition to developing autism just like some people have a genetic predisposition to developing schisoprenha or bipolar. We could compare the rates of autism in unvacinated sibblings and vacinated sibblings and look at differences in DNA.

Mama1980 Wed 16-Oct-13 09:53:16

I believe everyone has a right to choose for their child, I do but in this country we are in a extremely privileged position. We can practically eradicate such diseases and protect the weakened among us and that is a hugely privileged choice to have,
And herd immunity is important.
My ds1 was born at 26 weeks and reacted very badly to his initial injections, was hospitalised and it was touch and go for a while. His body struggled to cope and of course I felt horribly guilty but did it stop me giving him the next lot no it didn't, because of everyone's sake not least of all his I feel it has to be done.
He has had all vaccinations under specialised hospital care including the mmr.
I sympathise op. Have you spoken to the hospital about measures to keep your son safe?

SHarri13 Wed 16-Oct-13 09:58:00

OP I was sent an e-mail yesterday from my sons allergy consultant about egg allergies and MMR, would you like me to copy and paste to you. It would be really relevant to your dilemma. He runs a private practice although only in the London/ Surrey areas.

bumbleymummy Wed 16-Oct-13 10:03:15

ReallyTired. Rubella is not usually 'really nasty' for children - the reason we vaccinate against it is because it can cause problems for non-immune pregnant women. So if you're balancing the risks of vaccination then the risk to your child from rubella is very very small.

2tiredtocare Wed 16-Oct-13 10:05:42

You can't bumble mummy and that's life I'm afraid. There is a reason that people with immuno suppressed children are more afraid of everyday illnesses and that is because they are more common and most people have the MMR but if the take up rate declines and we have a situation like Wales then those children will be the first to succumb surely

specialsubject Wed 16-Oct-13 10:12:30

there was a documentary about vaccination on BBC4 the other night. Should be required watching for all anti-vaccinators who are too young to have seen a case of smallpox.

no-one will ever get smallpox again. We should all turn somersaults each morning to celebrate. Now, how did that come about?

Beachcomber Wed 16-Oct-13 10:43:16

Hi OP. I'm really sorry to hear of your child's health issues, allergies are very scary and steroid side effects suck.

My eldest child was allergic to many things when she was young (at one point she only had about seven foods that were safe for her) and had to be on a strict elimination diet for years. She struggled to put on weight and was very ill with asthma and eczema for a long time. She also had various other immune system related issues and for a while we were very afraid as our doctor told us that a bad case of flu or gastric illness could kill her.

She is ten years old now and in much better health and rarely has to use steroids. I hope your son's health improves as he gets older - it does happen. Anecdotally, my daughter's allergies improved dramatically after a bout of chicken pox, and when I spoke to our allergist about this, she said that she had often heard similar stories of a child improving in a similar way to mine (we were actually asked to participate in a study on the subject).

My daughter got sick following her pertussis vaccination and she also reacted at the time of injection - there is no doubt in our doctors mind about what happened to her.

I understand your fears for your son - I have similar ones for my daughter. However, I have not and will not vaccinate her younger sister with MMR.

I think it is appalling that you are not being offered single vaccines for your son and like other posters, I really encourage you to really pressure your doctor/hospital into doing that for you.

Good luck and best wishes.

Beachcomber Wed 16-Oct-13 10:52:13

Also just wanted to say sad to SunshineMum. Sorry to hear about what has happened to your child and the lack of care for gut issues. I hate seeing posters like you told that they don't know what happened to their own child. I get it too sometimes and it is adding insult to injury. Hugs x

TrueStory Wed 16-Oct-13 10:52:36

With that attitude and nasty, sweary title OP, you sound the unreasonable one. How about a bit of thought for parents who have thought this through and do not want their babies vaccinated for their own good reasons.

NotMeNotYouNotAnyone Wed 16-Oct-13 11:03:58


I think vaccinations should be compulsory except where there are medical issues confirmed by a professional

ubik Wed 16-Oct-13 11:07:29

this is interesting

I think TB us harder to treat due to certain strains becoming resistant to ABs.

2tiredtocare Wed 16-Oct-13 11:12:42

TB is on the rise as the BCG is not routinely given in all schools now and it has been brought over from countries not as fortunate as us with our immunisation program.

jellybeans Wed 16-Oct-13 11:28:37

YANBU. Many are relying on herd immunity and the fact that most parents do vaccinate. If nobody vaccinated and the diseases came back I doubt many would be as laid back about it.

Andro Wed 16-Oct-13 11:47:24

Surely more people have died/become severely ill as a result of contracting measles as opposed to receiving MMR

That's almost certainly true, however doesn't make anyone feel better when it's their child who is the 1/1,000,000 who damn near dies because of it (or any other routine vax for that matter).

2tiredtocare Wed 16-Oct-13 12:03:08

No that is true but as I said sadly thats life its all about risk and balance of probability

bumbleymummy Wed 16-Oct-13 12:15:59

You're missing the point 2tired. I am we'll aware that (currently) we have no way of identifying at-risk children. My point is that, if that is the case, making sweeping statements like 'vaccinate all healthy children' is ridiculous because you don't actually know which ones are 'healthy'. Ie which ones will not react badly.

bumbleymummy Wed 16-Oct-13 12:17:00

Special subject - it wasn't entirely due to vaccination if that's what you're trying to suggest.

ErrolTheDragon Wed 16-Oct-13 12:18:35

> How about a bit of thought for parents who have thought this through and do not want their babies vaccinated for their own good reasons.

That's exactly who she is thinking of - people like herself who have good reasons to not want to vaccinate their children.

bumbleymummy Wed 16-Oct-13 12:20:27

No, TB is on the rise because the vaccine does not offer adequate protection against pulmonary TB. The reason it is being given in 'high risk' areas is because it provides some protection for TB meningitis in children.

2tiredtocare Wed 16-Oct-13 12:25:33

If you're the expert bumbly why ask the question? I stand by what I said, all currently 'healthy' children should be vax'd , i dont however advocate forced vaccinations just hope the majority would decide to take it up

WhizzforAtomms Wed 16-Oct-13 12:28:40

I decided against MMR when my DS was small but a decade later and I've changed my mind. The nurse at our surgery refused to immunise because I no longer have his little red book. She was totally flustered at having to deal with anyone other than a baby and basically said 'go away, can't help you'.

bumbleymummy Wed 16-Oct-13 12:28:45

Which question are you talking about? I'm not claiming to be an expert. Just wondering what information people are basing their opinions on.

Rachel778 Wed 16-Oct-13 12:29:20

I never had any of the childhood immunisations, apart from Polio which back then was given on a sugar cube . I never had my BCG against TB either . I only got my anti Rubella jab after Id given birth to my firstborn . I have had tetanus jab as an adult ....

I have never (touches wood) had Whooping cough, Diptheria or TB .

I do feel for the OP in one way but by the same token it is rather hypocritical that you think parents who do not vaccinate are putting your child at risk .. . Some parents are probably scared shitless after the links to autism caused by the MMR ... They too have their choice.

bumbleymummy Wed 16-Oct-13 12:30:58

You clearly aren't alone in your ideas about 'healthy' children. I guess it's just a shame about the collateral damage that approach causes. hmm

AnaisHellWitch Wed 16-Oct-13 12:35:07

I was under the impression that Wakefield was studying the effects of MMR on a sub-set of already autistic children and that the tabloids twisted this to mean, "MMR causes austism"

It is so frustrating that my son has these bowels issues and is being denied medical treatment because no HP wants to admit that Wakefield wasn't wrong about everything, ever. And that any subsequent research based on his theories are to be discounted. Or that's how it seems to me sad

2tiredtocare Wed 16-Oct-13 12:35:10

You asked the question about TB yet seem to be in possesion of an answer. Newborns and vunerable children are much more likely to be collateral damage in an area with a low take up like Swansea

AnaisHellWitch Wed 16-Oct-13 12:49:23

Not that I am unaware that regression following MMR does happen. I have been here since 2005 and have read many harrowing accounts from rightly upset and well-respected posters who are most certainly not tabloid-believers.

2tiredtocare Wed 16-Oct-13 12:53:14

I dont disbelieve it at all either

neunundneunzigluftballons Wed 16-Oct-13 13:01:15

Here is the best analogy on the issue I heard recently recently. vaccinating is akin to playing Russian Roulette with your child's health, not vaccinating is akin to playing Russian Roulette after putting more bullets into the gun.

ReallyTired Wed 16-Oct-13 13:02:23

I imagine the that smallpox vaccine caused "collateral damage". I suppose in the bigger picture that blighting the lives of a handful of individuals was worth it to save the lives of millions.

"It is so frustrating that my son has these bowels issues and is being denied medical treatment because no HP wants to admit that Wakefield wasn't wrong about everything, ever. "

That is awful. There are children with bowels issues who aren't autistic and its perfectly possible for an autistic child to have medical conditions that aren't related to autism.

BumbleChum Wed 16-Oct-13 13:11:27

I sympathise, OP. I think that people who have a valid medical reason not to vaccinate ought to be protected by herd immunity.

I was concerned about the MMR when I had my first child. So I did my research, spoke to knowledgeable doctors, and the evidence was overwhelmingly that it should be done. So two of my three children are fully vaccinated, and the third will be when she's old enough.

If I were in your position, I would be very upset about the many parents who don't do any research and don't vaccinate. That doesn't mean that I think everyone who doesn't vaccinate is wrong, just that I think they have a duty to base their decision on careful consideration of the facts (including individual medical history).

whizz - make an appointment with your GP. I believe that most of the routine vaccines can be repeated before - so there's no reason for the nurse to refuse. (DS1 had to have the six-in-one vaccine repeated, because one of the elements had not given him immunity to that particular disease - the consultant said it didn't matter about him getting a 'double dose' of the other five elements.) The GP will want to get the vaccination done, I imagine, it's good for their figures.

BrokenSunglasses Wed 16-Oct-13 13:12:09

Some parents are probably scared shitless after the links to autism caused by the MMR ... They too have their choice

Yes, there probably are parents that are genuinely scared because of the 'link' between MMR and autism. I know it worried me when I had to make the choice well before Wakefield had been discredited.

But there is an alternative to MMR, you just have to pay for it. I think parents who would vaccinate against MMR if they were offered singles for free but who don't vaccinate at all if they have to pay are highly irresponsible.

I agree that no one should be forced to vaccinate and there are many valid reasons for deciding against vaccination. But there isn't a valid reason to leave your child unprotected against measles when you are happy with all the other vaccines, and you could just pay for the single.

moldingsunbeams Wed 16-Oct-13 13:17:00

My dd was on steroids for a while and became really poorly (blue, floppy rush to hospital job) because she was massively ill with what to others was minor.

I have autism in my family and when the MMR fuss was happening I really did not know what to do. I took months to decide.

After much much thought I decided I was more able to deal with Austism rather than a child who had been left blind and possibly brain damaged by measles.

AnaisHellWitch Wed 16-Oct-13 13:22:46

Reallytired it is awful. In our case we didn't have any documented proof of how ill DS was because he wasn't admitted to hospital. He couldn't even keep water down for weeks and we were changing sheets five times a night. Luckily he was breastfed and this sustained him <husk> otherwise he'd have been on a drip and probably sedated too.

All they have is my word that he was eating a wide range of foods, having normal bowel movements and is now still in nappies aged six. I am careful not to mention the timing of this illness but because he is autistic, well... Wakefield was struck off, no link, no investigation.

Andro Wed 16-Oct-13 13:50:19

AnaisHellWitch - just because there isn't a statistical link between two events, doesn't mean that in occasional situations they are not related. Anyone can have a bad reaction to any medication (or food) with devastating consequences, it doesn't mean that a blanket statement of 'MMR causes autism' is any more correct than 'cheese causes anaphylaxis' just means the the unfortunate person in situation x/y/z had that particular reaction to that particular food/med/allergen/whatever.

Any scientist worth the title will acknowledge that anomalous/out-laying results occur, they may not indicate a 'statistically significant' trend but it doesn't stop them existing. I really hope you manage to get appropriate support for your dc.

Beachcomber "Also just wanted to say sad to SunshineMum. Sorry to hear about what has happened to your child and the lack of care for gut issues. I hate seeing posters like you told that they don't know what happened to their own child. I get it too sometimes and it is adding insult to injury. Hugs x"

Are you really not able to understand the difference between
- 'knowing what symptoms your child has and knowing when they started' and
- 'having magical insight into the body's internal processes which means you know why and how those symptoms arose'

If we all had magical insight into the workings of our own bodies (let alone those of others) we wouldn't need doctors or diagnostic tests.

Sunshinemum knows her child best. She knows what problems he has, what symptoms he has, and when they began. She DOES NOT KNOW what CAUSED them.

The fact that symptoms began 'within a couple of weeks' of vaccination DOES NOT MEAN they were CAUSED BY vaccination.

Why is that so difficult to grasp?

ReallyTired Wed 16-Oct-13 14:29:05

The history of vaccines is littered with disasters and it is hard for parents to decide what is best. If you watched this video then you would realise its not beyond the realms of impossibliy that every vaccine carries a risk. At least we don't have to worry about monkey brain being injected into our kids!

Measles can cause brain damage similar to autism. A rare complication of mumps is mengentitis which also can cause profound brain damage. I feel that vaccination is the less of two evils. If we could wipe out these diseases then there would be no need to take the risk of vaccination. However we need herd immunity worldwide to make that happen.

Andrew Wakefield's research was a poor standard and its sad that a possible link between vaccine damage and autism can not be properly investigated. Wakefield did not prove a link, but that doesn't mean there is no link. I suppose it is possible that children with autism are more suspectible to live measles. Afterall why is it that some children died from measles where as others just shook it off easily?

AnaisHellWitch Wed 16-Oct-13 14:39:38

Thank you Andro

Measles is interesting. Almost as soon as DS had recovered from the D&V he came out in spots, feverish and the G.P told me that he had a "measles-like illness" and should stay at home for a fortnight.

He had had the live vaccine maybe six weeks previously.

I had Rubella as a child, vaccine at fourteen and before ttc both my children aged late twenties and mid-thirties had dangerously low immunity. Perhaps I just don't respond positively to vaccines and DS is the same, hence the "measles-like" illness confused

Beachcomber Wed 16-Oct-13 14:40:59

Heartinaspade do you have any experience of vaccine reaction?

I'm guessing not from your above post.

I'm happy for you.

Please don't patronise parents about whom you know nothing and their children about whom you know nothing.

The vast majority of children who react badly to vaccines react at the time - usually with fever, rashes, high pitched crying, swelling at injection sight, upset sleep, breathing issues.

When you take your healthy baby to get a jab and they have all the above reactions AT THE TIME OF AND IMMEDIATELY FOLLOWING INJECTION and then proceed to go downhill over a period of weeks and are never the same again, it seems likely that your child suffered a vaccine reaction. Why don't you tell me what did happen to my child and to Sunshine's child if you are so sure that you know that they didn't react to a vaccine?

What does your magical insight tell you about my daughter? What was your magical insight coming up with whilst I was rushing my daughter to hospital and praying that she didn't die in my arms?

I'm guessing your magical insight would tell you it is all a coincidence....

Mine was telling me she likely had a reaction to an invasive medical procedure.


You are coming across as extremely arrogant & ignorant about autism. I suspect you don't even realise there's no such thing as 'autism' (it's autisms). I certainly know children whose doctors do believe MMR may well have been the trigger hit regression in their particular child. These are doctors who are willing to listen to parents (tbh most senior doctors I have met have been open minded & happy to give an opinion) .

Sunshine - I'm sorry you are having difficulties accessing treatment for your child. I do think that slowly paediatricians etc are becoming more aware of the gut issues & hopefully that will filter through to gastroenterologists. 12 years ago ds1's paediatrician rolled his eyes at us when we talked about gf diets, a couple of years ago his neurologist asked whether we'd ever considered giving it a try. Slowly, slowly attitudes are changing. Not much help when your son is in pain & needs help now I know xx

Andro Wed 16-Oct-13 14:56:40

The fact that symptoms began 'within a couple of weeks' of vaccination DOES NOT MEAN they were CAUSED BY vaccination.

Equally, the doctors quite possibly don't know for certain that they were NOT caused by vaccination. Who is to say that her dc wasn't neurologically vulnerable and a particular vaccination was one stimulus too far at that time? Permanent brain damage )for example) is acknowledged as a possible, very rare complication of some vaccines by the CDC (and compensation for brain injury has been paid out as a result).

SunshineMMum Wed 16-Oct-13 15:17:12

Thank you Saintly and others. I was lucky enough to attend a brilliant talk by a man who has specialised it diet and behaviour and he was probably the first specialist I have come across, who did acknowledge long term gut problems in children with autism. He was also dismayed at the amount of parents, who have had their views on their own children ridiculed, when it has come expressing problems with the MMR, in a similar way to those views on these threads, from people who have never encountered my child. Changes in opinion, particularly with diet and autism, over the last ten years have given me hope.

candycoatedwaterdrops Wed 16-Oct-13 17:08:55

I hate these threads because you get the non-vaxers under emphasising the symptoms of X disease and you get vaxers over emphasising symptoms of X disease. There is never any middle ground nor any shift on these threads. Same old, same old and it goes round and round to the point where I end up disagreeing with everyone because it's all the same crap.

Incidentally, as a immunosuppressed person, I am not too worried about most of the above mentioned disease and more worried about the every day illness that seem to knock me for six.

2tiredtocare Wed 16-Oct-13 17:16:37

But you don't have to worry so much about them because most people vaccinate if that dies off you'd be in trouble

I don't think it's that likely rates will suddenly drop. Vaccination rates are the highest they have ever been in the UK. Far higher than they were before the MMR concerns were raised (especially if you add in the single jabs - then you are pretty much as 95%).

I did make that point about everyday illnesses upthread candy. TBH everyone I know who has had to deal with immune issues (including my own child) has had problems from either everyday illnesses or viruses that usually are carried harmlessly by all of us.

My mum is deaf in one ear from measles (& was very ill with it) so our decision to not vaccinate the younger children wasn't made under the assumption that measles is only ever mild (albeit my own case was). Unfortunately some of us live with situations that are not straightforward.

bumbleymummy Wed 16-Oct-13 17:27:33

2tried. They may vaccinate against them but that doesn't mean that their immunity won't wane. Look at the increase in WC cases in recent years. Now they've found that immunity can start to wane in as little as 1 year!

ubik Wed 16-Oct-13 17:41:23

So are you arguing that we shouldn't bother with vaccination? Because that seems to be the implication - that the risks outweigh the benefits.

Thants Wed 16-Oct-13 17:47:05

I completely agree op, I think vaccination should be mandatory unless ofc someone has an allergy like your son. It is completely ridiculous that parents are allowed to put their own children and everyone else at risk.

candycoatedwaterdrops Wed 16-Oct-13 18:03:14

But you don't have to worry so much about them because most people vaccinate if that dies off you'd be in trouble

Like Saintly I just don't feel that the rates will ever drop so low to be concerned about. I'm not saying it's not a fleeting thought but in the grand scheme of things, as an immunosuppressed person, I have bigger fish to fry. Yes, lady in Starbucks with cute baby with possible whooping cough, I am looking at you. angry

plinkyplonks Wed 16-Oct-13 18:14:03

YABU. You're anger is mis placed.

And you can't shrink wrap the world with cotton wool for you son.

2tiredtocare Wed 16-Oct-13 18:14:11

Whooping cough is part of the vaccination programme

candycoatedwaterdrops Wed 16-Oct-13 18:18:26

This was a young baby with supposed whooping cough.

Whistleblower0 Wed 16-Oct-13 18:37:46

Vaccination should be mandatory,unless there is a real medical condition involved.
I know that some private nursaries are making it so.

ArgyMargy Wed 16-Oct-13 18:41:26

Mandatory for flu then? Everyone seems to have ignored my post. I'm not making it up. And shingles for 70+ - are we making that mandatory too? Or is our hysteria confined to children?

Thants Wed 16-Oct-13 18:47:07

If they would let me have the flu jab I would!

Whistleblower0 Wed 16-Oct-13 18:51:52

I'm talking specifically about the MMR. There is no excuse not to have your child vaccinated. There is no proven link between the vacine and autism. Andrew wakefild was discredited a long time ago.
I cannot for the life of me understand why people choose to ignore facts, but will happily cite gobbleygook they have read on some half baked internet forum.

Actually the studies have shown that MMR was not responsible for the rise in autism (no- one said it was). And they treated autism as one thing, which it's not (and recent papers are recognising that).

One of the fastest growing fields in autism research is the role of the immune system for some subgroups of autism. Some of those models even consider the role vaccinations may occasionally play in specific subgroups. (Shhhh don't tell anyone).

TheArticFunky Wed 16-Oct-13 19:06:16

My children have had the single vaccines for reasons that I won't go into.

All the children I know have had the MMR or single vaccine. Most parents want their children vaccinated.

TheArticFunky Wed 16-Oct-13 19:12:09

I also meant to add that I think that parents who have not vaccinated their children probably have very good reasons for not doing so.

bumbleymummy Wed 16-Oct-13 19:12:36

ubik,no but I think people should be a bit more aware of things like waning immunity and that some vaccines are not as effective as they should be before they start attacking others who have made different decisions about vaccination.

TheArticFunky Wed 16-Oct-13 19:17:38

That's true. I was vaccinated against measles and still caught it. I had rubella as a child, was vaccinated against it as a teenager and when I was pregnant the blood test showed that I had no immunity.

notallytuts Wed 16-Oct-13 19:23:18

Bogeyface Tue 15-Oct-13 23:10:40
But some children do get very very sick and thats why herd immunity is so important, and why I think that the CP vaccine should be made available on the NHS.

This thread is a brilliant example of why CP vaccination would be a bad thing in this country. Too many parents not willing to vaccinate their kids (for whatever reason, some medically justified, some not). Vaccinating below the level required for herd immunity pushes up the average age of infection, and CP is one of those diseases which is more severe the older you are when you get it. Herd immunity for chicken pox is particularly high, hence implementing vaccination programs isnt recommended.

ziggiestardust Wed 16-Oct-13 19:54:01

*Add message | Report | Message poster TheGlovesAreOrf Tue 15-Oct-13 22:04:09
Jan who has been severely brain damaged by a vaccine?*


She went for a routine DPT vaccine, and was under the weather. MIL took no notice; it happens.

She went for the 2nd one, and SIL was ill for a week; they ended up taking her to the hospital. When MIL asked if it was the vaccine, the dr laughed her off and told her not to be so silly.

After the 3rd one, within 30 minutes, SIL had overheated so much she lost consciousness. When she regained consciousness a week later, she was left permanently brain damaged. The high temperature had caused it.

Doctors now say that the DPT vaccine given in the 80's has now been changed, because of 'some issues'. My GP knew about it too. But these same doctors told my devastated MIL that it was just 'one of those things', for 20 years.

Even though it has been acknowledged to MIL that SIL's reaction came from the vaccine; it's cold comfort. SIL is 31, and still lives at home and requires 24 hour care.

It isn't all black and white. When my DH was born, MIL (obviously) refused to give him the DPT. It was met with disbelief by her local children's clinic, who said she was just being bloody minded and neglectful angry, and even when he later joined the armed forces, it was highlighted that he'd not had it. The doctor running the medical told him that MIL had obviously bought into the hype of the times, and would he like it now? There needs to be more sympathy and belief of people who's children really do have problems with vaccines. Because it happens. That is a fact.

Did anyone ever find out why the government won't allow single vaccines? It seemed to boil down to "because we say so" but maybe they have come up with a better reason since that I've not heard.

It seems that more people would be vaccinated against more diseases if it were allowed so perhaps complaints and searching questions should be directed to them.

bumbleymummy Wed 16-Oct-13 20:20:14

That still seems to pretty much still be the case BackOnly. Apparently re-introducing it now would undermine the MMR. They shouldn't have taken it away to begin with. Particularly just after some concerns had been raised.

BrokenSunglasses Wed 16-Oct-13 20:25:43

Didn't they say that it was because they didn't think people would turn up for six separate appointments (assuming they were going to give two doses of each) so we wouldn't achieve herd immunity?

There's that, and it's probably more expensive for them, but I don't see why they couldn't charge people for the extra appointment times if they chose singles.

bumbleymummy Wed 16-Oct-13 20:32:28

Thing is, they don't actually need to give Mumps and Rubella at the same time as measles. So the 6 separate appt thing is a bit of a non-issue. If people want to protect their kids against certain diseases - they will show up for the appt. They manage it for all the other ones!

LaurieFairyCake Just wanted to say that as an older poster I find the whole thing a bit puzzling too. I had all the childhood illnesses when they did the rounds and everyone treated them as a nuisance rather than anything to worry about. I remember being quite uncomfortable, but it wasn't a big deal.

Maybe people were dying left and right back then from measles etc and no one told me, but if so you'd think parents would have been more concerned. We didn't even bother the GP for the standard illnesses and no attempt was made to avoid other infected kids. I wonder if something could have changed so that what was inconvenient back then is extremely dangerous now?

Of course people with damaged immune systems would be in much more danger, but they must have existed back then too.

I'm not against vaccination either. Though a bit confused by the government pushing it and then making it difficult for some people.

OHforDUCKScake Wed 16-Oct-13 20:42:41

I can see then threads moved on quite a bit since I last posted, Im barging back in with a slight update/quandary.

I spoke to two private clinics today. One no longer has single vaccines. The other, who on no uncertain terms, said he would not vaccinate my child in -what was- his own home/clinic, now works in a GP practice, has an egg free measles vaccine but isnt happy to do it there still.

So, I have to try and persuade the paeditrician on Wednesday (when we get the CP vaccine) to either someone how (?) get the single vaccine from the private clinic to their hospital and administer it during an appointment, or give this private doctor the go ahead to travel to the hospital with said vaccine and give it to my son in the hospital/safe place.

It seems very simple on paper.

I dont think it will be in practice.

OHforDUCKScake Wed 16-Oct-13 20:43:33

Oh Im the OP by the way, I changed back to my 'usual' username.

bumbleymummy Yeah 'undermining the MMR' is one of those explanations that sounds like it means something.

BrokenSunglasses I could sort of see that, but all they'd need to do is make the MMR really easy to get and let those parents with concerns or in special situations have the singles. And as you say they could even charge them for the extra appointments. They'd still be better of then having people say "in that case we can't have any at all".

OHforDUCKScake hope you can make that work.

PedantMarina Wed 16-Oct-13 20:48:48
bumbleymummy Wed 16-Oct-13 20:51:17

Ducks, I hope you can work it out. Keep us posted. It seems awful that they are making it so difficult for you when you clearly have a need for it!

LittleprincessinGOLDrocks Wed 16-Oct-13 20:54:24

DS has an egg allergy(amongst other health issues) , and had his MMR in hospital. He was absolutely fine. They kept a close eye on him (whilst he busily did a giant floor puzzle) and we were home after about 2 hours.
I had worried like you, I had an over night bag all packed. I was petrified. But he was absolutely fine. Please keep in mind they are set up to deal with any possible issues that may arise, and they will keep him very closely monitored.
Good luck OP xx

puntasticusername Wed 16-Oct-13 20:55:15

Here are quite a few good reasons - which weren't at all difficult to locate - why the MMR is vastly to be preferred compared to single jabs:

bumbleymummy Wed 16-Oct-13 21:29:46

I've seen those before. As I said earlier, there is no NEED to give mumps and rubella at the same time as Measles so the idea that it takes longer is a non- argument. As far as safety/effectiveness is concerned - scare mongering. The single measles vaccine - Rouvax is produced my sanofi Pasteur - the manufacturer of the Pediacel (5-in-1) vaccine. Shall we start questioning its safety?

PrimalLass Wed 16-Oct-13 21:44:18

I live in the US. I've worked in education in several states. In each of these you could sign a waiver to avoid immunization. Doing so is so popular, in fact, that we're having a resurgence of certain illnesses. The chicken pox is still very common here, and not newsworthy in any region I've lived in.

It was California. I don't know if that makes any difference. My friend is unlikely to lie about it, and vaccinated her kids.

Re: unavailability of single vaccines.

I wrote to the dept of health back in 2001 (before ds1's regression actually) and asked them why they had 'banned' single vaccines.

They wrote back and told me they hadn't, that they were quite happy to allow single jabs but the pharmaceutical companies had allowed the licences to lapse and had not asked for them to be renewed. If they asked for them to be renewed they would consider it in the usual manner.

So who knows.

puntasticusername Wed 16-Oct-13 21:50:45

bumbleymummy you can if you want, I'm done, doesn't seem likely that anyone is likely to change their mind about anything.

Sorry if that sounds totally rude, I've had a shit day to be honest.

DalekInAFestiveJumper Wed 16-Oct-13 21:53:48

It was California. I don't know if that makes any difference.

I currently live and work in California. We definitely have a waiver. And chicken pox parties.

ArgyMargy Wed 16-Oct-13 22:26:55

And no-one seems to have died or gone deaf in Wales.

ReallyTired Wed 16-Oct-13 22:49:18

"And no-one seems to have died or gone deaf in Wales."

How do you know? Certainly children have been hospitalised. If the OP child had measles then he would certainly die.

The post mortum of a 25 year old man who had measles in the recent outbreak was inconclusive

The risks of complications of measles is pretty high even in healthy people. Certainly the risks of serious complications are higher than the risks of autism caused by the jab.

PrimalLass Wed 16-Oct-13 22:57:32

It was California. I don't know if that makes any difference.

I currently live and work in California. We definitely have a waiver. And chicken pox parties.

No idea then. thlconfused

ErrolTheDragon Wed 16-Oct-13 23:00:26

Saintly - that's interesting. Its often made to sound like its some sort of dark plot on the part of the government or the NHS to coerce people into having the MMR, but that sounds like its the more prosaic case that there's just not enough money in single jabs for the companies to want to carry on making them.

bababababoom Wed 16-Oct-13 23:12:01

I have a child with a heart condition, who could be really poorly if she caught any of these illnesses people are not vaccinating their children against.

I am partially deaf due to measles I caught as a child.

You can guess which side of the debate I'm on.

YANBU, OP. Bloody vaccinate your children. People in third world countries walk for days to get their children vaccinated, that is, if they possibly can.

bumbleymummy Wed 16-Oct-13 23:13:54

"If the OP child had measles then he would certainly die."

What an awful thing to say! He may be more likely to suffer complications but you can't possibly know how serious they would be for him.

bumbleymummy Wed 16-Oct-13 23:16:25

Can we please stop the comparisons with developing countries? People walk for miles to get food and water there as well - it is not the same situation at all. (and no, it is not just because we have vaccination here!)

Oh that whole letter was a bit odd Errol. They also told me there was no loss of confidence in the MMR and I was quite mistaken to think that people didn't trust it. So I was a bit hmm at every news broadcast going on about a massive drop - especially given that letter was written to me at the height of the MMR issue.

I'm sure a govt could order singles if they wanted (so making licensing worthwhile for the company) but it did confirm there's no dark reason related to the single vaccinations themselves as to why they're not licensed. I suspect the money issue is govt related as well. Economics does feature a lot in decisions about which vaccinations to supply and buy in (the argument for mumps vaccination is economic, the argument for vaccinating healthy children against the flu is economic - that's all in the JCVI minutes if anyone fancies trawling through).

SecretWitch Wed 16-Oct-13 23:19:58

I can also verify that chicken pox is not news worthy in the US. I have been here almost 25 years and have not once seen any paper/television articles detailing a story about a child with chicken pox.

You can absolutely choose to opt out of vaxxing your child before school by simply filling out and returning a form to the school.

Chandra Wed 16-Oct-13 23:34:15

I had measles as a baby and have lost part of my hearing as a result. I had mumps at 6 and rubeolla before I finished primary school.

I have a child who reacted to every dose of his early vaccines to the point he ended in hospital but the doctors refused to investigate, and I don't blame them, they won't be believed and would be highly criticised if they did.

We all are different, in the same way some people could die if given a penycillin shot, in the same way as many other medicines, vaccines may be safe for the great majority of people but not all so, even with all the damage that mmr diseases have put me through, I still think YABU. Sorry, there is simply no medical substance that is absolutely safe for the whole of the population so I welcome we have the freedom to decide if we want to risk using a certain product.

By the way, ds was immunosupressed at the time of his MMR, he also is allergic to egg (carries an epipen). We went for sepvax (and would have been prepated to fly him abroad for them if necessary) because after being treated as idiots and dismissed with each if the early vaccines' reactions, we knew that if something untiward happened with the MMR the credibility of the vaccine would be put ahead of the needs and individuality of our son.

Si herd immunity, my a&se.

bigbuttons Thu 17-Oct-13 06:49:26

When ds1 reacted very badly after his mmr the dr's told me that they couldn't say it was due to the vaccine.
They also said that they couldn't say it WASN'T to do with the vaccine. What was clear was that something had happened to him.
So none of my others had the mmr. They all had measles and are all fine.

2tiredtocare Thu 17-Oct-13 12:52:37

That's good big buttons

puntasticusername thanks for the link, but none of those reasons hold up.

They are comparing having a single vaccine versus having the MMR but the reality is having the MMR or not having anything because the government have forbidden it.

Under what circumstances would having 3 single vaccines be worse than not having any at all?

Chandra Fri 18-Oct-13 17:44:51

Has anybody in the thread has pointed out that the Op is angry about people not vaccinating as that takes away the choice not to vaccinate her son? Talk about double standards and all that hmm

OHforDUCKScake Fri 18-Oct-13 17:52:01

It angers me, irrationally so.

I know AIBU Im just feel very resentful and angry

im scared he is going to die

I think, I think, this is why they didnt all point it out.

Because I know.

Ilisten2theradio Fri 18-Oct-13 17:59:40

I haven't read all the replies but my Ds is also anaphylactic to egg. He had his mmr booster in hospital. The Des refused and referred him to the hospital. The hospital said that there was no trace of egg in the vaccine but that they get people sent by the GPS and they don't consider it a risk.Ds did not have any reaction to it at all. I hope this gives you some comfort in the wait for the appointment.

OHforDUCKScake Fri 18-Oct-13 18:05:08

Thanks. My problem is that he is allergic to more than just egg though.

If he was just allergic to egg Id have vaccinated him by now I think.

Thants Fri 18-Oct-13 18:14:23

Chandra. Op's choice is very different though. Either way there a possible serious risk to her son. Whereas healthy people who choose not to for ideological reasons are not in that difficult position.

ErrolTheDragon Fri 18-Oct-13 20:47:26

>They are comparing having a single vaccine versus having the MMR but the reality is having the MMR or not having anything because the government have forbidden it.

They haven't 'forbidden' it - see saintlyjimjams post upthread.

greenbananas Fri 18-Oct-13 21:03:09

Op, I blatantly can't be bothered to read the whole thread, and have seen this argument before on mumsnet anyway. Just want to say we are in the same boat and I totally understand your frustration.

Ds 1 is very allergic to egg and many other foods. He picks up bugs like nobody's business. I ought to be able to trust to herd immunity and not have to give him an immunisation which is grown on egg albumin, but I can't because so many people don't vaccinate.

ds had the mmr a year late because the gp wanted him to have it in hospital but the allergy specialist said there was no need. It took ages of letters going back and forth.

Anyway, he had the mmr at the ordinary surgery in the end and was fine. They had adrenaline lined up on the side, showed me where the panic button was etc. But nothing bad happened smile

ErrolTheDragon ok opposing it then - making it as difficult as possible. If there are people who are going to have no vaccine at all because MMR is not a viable option they why not help them get singles? Their stated aims are in conflict with their actions.

greenbananas Fri 18-Oct-13 21:28:37

DUCKScake just read back a couple of pages and realised this is you. I know you have had a hard time with the whole allergy thing. I still haven't read the whole thread, but would put money on there being some grim comments... don't let them get you down! You are mighty brave (or crazy grin ) to start a thread like this!

Have you searched back through the allergy board for experiences of mmr? As I remember, there is one poster whose child had a problem with the booster (had a reaction but was controllable) and everybody else who has posted has been fine. Have you been in touch with the Anaphylaxis Campaign? They are usually so helpful with stuff like this.

It's no wonder you are are worried when your child reacts to every form of chicken. I would be worried too... even though most egg allergic children are fine.

After ds 1 had his mmr, the nurse gave him the usual sticker for being brave, and then she gave me a sticker, saying that I had been brave too grin

Will be thinking of you.

cherryademerrymaid Sat 19-Oct-13 09:14:45

OP Im sorry that you're in this position. I think I feel similar to brokensunglasses.

Can I just ask - those of you commenting and bringing statistics to the conversation - are you medical professionals? And Im not asking that because I want to try to say your opinions are shit if you're not - Im just interested from a personal standpoint. I've yet to make the MMR decision with our youngest.

I am an ex research scientist.

gasman Sat 19-Oct-13 09:29:26

The vast majority of kids who have MMR in hospital because of egg allergy have no problems.

It is usually a massive anti-climax. Hope that is vaguely reassuring.

Chandra Sun 20-Oct-13 17:09:30

Thants, i would say that most of us who are weary of the MMR believe that the vaccine is safe for the great majority of children, but there are particulat cases when given the genetic make up of the child, and their particular medical history, the MMR can cause in some cases considerable damage.

The op is claiming that if we all vaccinated she wouldn't be in this dilemma, not realising that a great number of people who decided not to vaccinate were in the same position as she is, and decided not to vaccinate as the lesser of two evils.

Thants Sun 20-Oct-13 18:11:49

Chandra what genetic make up would make you wary of mmr?

sheridand Sun 20-Oct-13 20:53:04

Both mine had the MMR late: at 3 rather than 1. I chose that path because we have a fmaily history of autoimmune reaction to vaccination, autoimmune disease, and both of my kids were born with my antibodies from my varied autoimmune diseases in them. These antibodies did not clear until aged 3 or thereabouts. In the USA, I was told it would be standard to immunise them later, in the UK, I had to pay for blood tests tyo check the antibodes had gone myself. I think the vaccination IS safe for most, but it isn't safe for my kids, at least, not until their systems had cleared the antibodies put in them by me! And this was advise from my endocrinologist, not hearsay.Not that that had any weight with the GP.

sheridand - did the endocrinologist give any references for that? That's not a sly dig btw, am genuinely extremely interested, it might be very relevant for us.

Chandra Mon 21-Oct-13 20:42:57

Auto immune disorders running in the family Thants. Also having a good number of people with aspergers, autism and coelliac disease in the family. That kind of thing.

QOD Mon 21-Oct-13 20:51:01

My dn is severely brain damaged from the mmr

She got chicken pox within a couple of days and it attacked her brain stem as her immunity was so compromised due to mmr

It's not an easy choice for people WITH healthy children you know. My dd was healthy, but had had a series of convulsions, febrile ones. I was terrified of the mmr, I took a decision, with dh and my dr surgery, that dd would have m and r separately and take the risk with mumps.

Sweeping statements about people like me being selfish are ... Well, too sweeping.

QOD - is that accepted officially by the docs? I'm just asking because I was told 12 years ago by a researcher in the autism community that they felt that catching chickenpox too close to MMR was a risk factor for regression.

*possibly of course - they did qualify it a lot, but it was something they were concerned about

QOD Mon 21-Oct-13 22:50:20

She has dancing eyes syndrome as one diagnosis which is linked to cp, "they" the medical profession felt that she was so severely affected as her body was fighting the whole mmr thing and just couldn't cope.
She doesn't just have that, she is brain damaged, can't walk steadily, can't read or write or tell time. She is 22 now bless her cottons. No one can say with 100% certainty but the coincidence is pretty heavy.

Yes, definitely. sad

cherryademerrymaid Thu 24-Oct-13 17:21:50

saintlyjimjams - would you mind if I messaged you to talk with you about your opinions etc?

Pagwatch Thu 24-Oct-13 17:25:14

Ds2 had chicken pox and was unwell for ages and then had the MMR. Disaster for him.

Please do cherry smile

sad pagwatch

OHforDUCKScake Thu 24-Oct-13 17:54:05

Disaster pagwatch?

In what way confused

OHforDUCKScake Thu 24-Oct-13 17:56:15

My son is to have the cp vaccination, then the measles vaccine. I hope that doesnt count.

Pagwatch Thu 24-Oct-13 18:45:15

Stopped speaking. Started communicating in hgh pitched screams. Lost bowel control. Developed recurring diarrhoea/constipation starting stimming/head banging ec etc etc.

Now 17. Functions around age 5. Asd/anxiety/obsessions.

That's the basics.

Pagwatch Thu 24-Oct-13 18:47:57


We have a family history of issues with vaccination plus allergies etc.
He was just unlucky. Very white faced and not well when he had the MMR.
Not your average sitation really.
Dd hasn't had any as she as immune system nonsense too.

OHforDUCKScake Thu 24-Oct-13 18:57:04

Oh this is just all so scary.

Pagwatch Thu 24-Oct-13 19:33:51

Oh Duck - the last thing I want to do is scare anyone.

My mum had huge swelling and scarring at vaccine sites. So did I.
Anesthetic jabs don't work on me, or ds1 or DD. we all have excema or asthma. Loads of weirdy immune stuff. Ds2 was unlucky.

OHforDUCKScake Thu 24-Oct-13 20:53:17

The thing is, DS is a bit of an immune crazed child too.

I blame a lot, if not all, of his current health issues on vaccinations in the first place. He is allergic to most foods, fabrics, creams, the weather.

Theres no history of allergies in my family.

But then, I watched my brother nearly die of chicken pox and it worries me that the same will happen to my son.

I will never feel that I have made the right decision. Whether I wait longer, dont give any more, give them now, give some but not others, give some later.

Theres pros and unbelievably frightening cons to all.

I was looking at him earlier, he said 'thank you' for the first time tonight rather than saying 'tee' as he usually does. I though, what if I vaccinate and it protects you from an illness but it undoes your whole life? Your words, your perception and relationship with the world? It would absolutely break my heart I would never be able to forgive myself.

Much like Id never forgive myself if I watched him suffer chicken pox in the way my brother did.

If an adult or teenager had an MMR, could they regress and become autistic?

QOD Thu 24-Oct-13 20:54:10

Pagwatch sad
Shite isn't it, and then the massssive responsibility of vaccinating/not vaccinating/single dose jabs/ not mumps
I was beside myself, it was DD's cousin who was affected and I know it's really stooopid but dd looked so much like her cousin too and it made me feel even more at risk.
However, my decision to single jab was actually a fab one as one of the other girl cousins came along for the ride and wouldn't have had the m r at all if it weren't for me/us. So two missed mmr but 2 lots of m r

Whilst we are on this, I'm going to start a new thread in a mo as I got a report from her secondary school asking for consent for last school leaver diphtheria tetanus polio and it had her complete history of immunisations from birth .... And had her down as having HAD the mmr!!

cherryademerrymaid Fri 25-Oct-13 07:00:46

Is there anyone here who has a good critical eye for what makes good statistics/research point me in the right direction for reading matter so I can make an actual informed (the best I can) decision as to how I'm going to move forward? LO2's father has a mild allergy history (hayfever and mild mild asthma as does his mother) and the mention of allergies/immune stuff putting children at greater risk really does have me worried.

cherryademerrymaid Fri 25-Oct-13 08:01:12

Sorry, forgot to add: LO2 has an older half-sibling who was fully vaccinated and is now being assessed for ADHD type symptoms along with sensory issues that set her apart from her peers and is becoming more pronounced as she gets older.

OHforDUCKScake Fri 25-Oct-13 08:24:42

Cherry I read something once, but it was a long time ago. Tbh I have just gone by other peoples experience and not wanting to take the risk.

Could you get the individual vaccines done?

GuybrushThreepwoodMP Fri 25-Oct-13 08:46:00

YANBU. These should be societal decisions that everyone (if possible) adheres to. Like wearing a seatbelt.

ovenbun Fri 25-Oct-13 08:57:30

The person you should be angry with is Andrew Wakefield who wrote the bogus MMR research in the first place, and is responsible for a massive increase in measles and mumps, luckily rubella doesnt seem to have reared it's ugly head again.

Vaccines are a lot safer than the diseases they protect against. It is a massive shame that children are dying from preventable diseases in a developed country, because people are anti the protection availiable.

Vaccinations are protection that our ancestors would have jumped at the chance to receive, and indeed current families in less fortunate countries dream of...but because we have forgotten what it is like to have a high child death rate, we a re lulled into a sense of security where we make choices which put our children, and also the most vulnerable such as people receiving chemotherapy etc at risk of some really serious diseases.

If you are anrti-vac, please look up the possible effects of the diseases you are not protecting your children against before you make your choice, or make an apppointment to discuss the risks and benefits with your GP. Then at least you know you are making an informed choice rather than one fuelled by internet rubbish.

ovenbun Fri 25-Oct-13 09:15:02

unfortunately there are a lot of things that are being mentionned that could easily have no real link with vaccination. There are a lot of unnvaccinated children who have ADHD or Autism.

This article is useful, but unfortunately you have to pay for the whole thing, however the little blurb you can read explains the risks of some of the diseases being vaccinated against.

Anaphylactic reactions are scary but very rare.

ovenbun Fri 25-Oct-13 09:15:10

treadheavily Fri 25-Oct-13 09:38:27

I am with you OP and feel very sorry for what you go through with your child's health.

Pagwatch Fri 25-Oct-13 10:42:47

Of course there are plenty of chikdren with asd who didn't have the MMR.

That is not in dispute.

Of course I hope you are not suggesting that I am mistaken in my assessment of the regression my son suffered aged 20months and his subsequent asd/anxiety/gut issues etc.

Pagwatch Fri 25-Oct-13 10:48:24

Yes. The hardest bit is deciding what to do with DD.

I am of course damned if I do and damned if I don't.

No one really gives a shit about what happened to DS2 except a few kind souls and the people who know him. Society doesn't care. I had to give up my career to care for him.
Yet I come on here and get jeering, goady, aggressive stuff posted by people who just enjoy being morally outraged because it's a laugh.

A poster once started a thread describing unvaccinated children as loaded guns.
She thought it was smart and hard hitting. I thought it made her a twat.

My DD has all the issues that come with poor immunity and the life complications you get from having a severely disabled brother and one smart arse on the Internet talks about her as if she should be shipped off o an Island. Actually another poster posted that too.

Andro Fri 25-Oct-13 10:55:43

ovenbun - scary doesn't even begin to cover what it's like to watch your child crash, be blue lighted to hospital, go into cardiac arrest and end up fighting for their life in ICU...fortunately it's only ~1 in a million who react that way (but that doesn't help the guilt about being the one who's decision put your child in that state).

I agree with getting professional advice, especially of your child has risk factors in their family history/has had bad reactions to vaccines in the past/has a history of allergies. Beware of some professional who seem determined to vaccines at all costs, a good GP will discuss your concerns openly and not fob you off with a verbal pat on the head and 'there, there dear, you're worrying about nothing'.

cherryademerrymaid Fri 25-Oct-13 11:01:01

I care, Pag. None of these decisions for anyone from either side of the debate are easy. I don't honestly think any parent who had already had a child have an adverse reaction to a vaccine that caused long term issues could be blamed for thinking about not vaccinating subsequent siblings - that's just the opposite side of the OP's coin - and how much risk someone is willing to take is a highly individual decision.

Some people just aren't able to put themselves in someone else's shoes...that's their loss, not yours.

Don't worry pag - only this morning I've been told my assessment of what happened to ds1 (relevant of course for siblings) is 'imaginary' and equivalent to believing that a vaccination reaction has occurred due to eating left over guacamole. This sort of opinion is usually espoused by someone who isn't even aware that there's no such thing as 'autism' (it's autisms for those wondering).

If someone is in a difficult place decision wise I would advise investigating family history, reading everything you can about current research & emailing researchers for their opinions or to be pointed in the direction of further research. Even better if you can attend conferences & talk to the researchers but that's not always possible. Then make your decision. Don't be guilted into anything by people who have strong opinions but aren't actually risking anything with their child - because if the shit hits the fan I guarantee they'll be the first to clear off.

Cherry - I have your pm - but my phone doesn't open them properly - will look and reply later when on computer!

Pagwatch Fri 25-Oct-13 13:25:25

Yes, that's so true Saintly.
Parents have to just make the right decision for themselves because ultimately, for all the chest beating, the only people affected are, well, those affected.
My ds had an adverse reaction because I dutifully turned up on time and on schedule for his vaccinations. The 'anti-vacc' thing irritates me.
If I was fricking anti-vacc I wouldn't be in this situation.

I agree Cherry. I think that gets forgotten.
That because of ds2s experience my DD is now unvaccinated and that too brings risks.
I sympathise with the op because to feel backed into a corner makes us all feel vulnerable.

Pagwatch Fri 25-Oct-13 13:27:06

I do wish I had your brain though Saintly. I really do.

I have oodles of common sense but zero science. I would read more but it's like a whole other language grin

Ha plenty of people on here would disagree with that pag. grin

TBH though we're still a number of years away from having the answers we need anyway. DS1's lovely neurologist told me to ask him again in 10-20 years and he'd be able to answer my questions - so ultimately you just have to do the best you can on incomplete knowledge.

OHforDUCKScake Fri 25-Oct-13 14:45:20

What is it about the combined MMR that causes autism? Is that still a risk with the individual vaccines? From the AW theory that I read, he said that the individual vaccines should be the alternative.

OverMyDeadQODdy Fri 25-Oct-13 17:20:07

See I don't necessarily worry myself about the mmr VACCINE, for me it was giving her 3 things right when she was at her maximum risk of chicken pox, slapped cheek, any of the many many childhood illnesses. It's giving them so many potentially serious diseases at the same time right when she was mixing with children that were pustulating germ bags

OHforDUCKScake Fri 25-Oct-13 18:03:07

That was along my line lf thinking too.

Pixel Fri 25-Oct-13 19:07:25

It is a massive shame that children are dying from preventable diseases in a developed country, because people are anti the protection availiable.

The complications from these diseases can be devastating I agree, but dying? Where did you hear that?

Well some babies have died from whooping cough but it is agreed by pretty much everyone that the whooping cough outbreak is due to waning immunity of the vaccination ( and the change to aP). Or possibly a mutation.

treadheavily Fri 25-Oct-13 19:16:16

The first signs of autism often become apparent when the child is 18 months which is also the age many children have their immunisations.

Pixel Fri 25-Oct-13 20:14:01

Oh yes whooping cough sad. Sorry I immediately thought of measles and mumps and I hadn't heard of any deaths from those.

Oh don't worry pixel - the single minded often blame 'anti-vaccinators' :rolls eyes: for the outbreak anyway when that isn't the case at all.

treadheavily - do you have any experience of autism at all? I am guessing not.

treadheavily Sat 26-Oct-13 01:23:09

saintly yes I work with them.

LyannaStark Sat 26-Oct-13 01:57:59

What age are these children with autism that you work with? Older babies and toddlers you have known well from birth, and can certainly say that they were already autistic before MMR?

treadheavily Sat 26-Oct-13 02:21:36

Pre-schoolers. Usually come to our attention 2-2.5, some immunised, some not.

Pagwatch Sat 26-Oct-13 06:50:46

The 'it's just co-incidence' argument is such a crock of shit.

My son regressed. I didn't suddenly spot signs at 18months. He lost skills. The GP was concerned at this substantial loss of skills, chnges in diet and beaviour and sent him for lots of tests.

Pagwatch Sat 26-Oct-13 06:51:40

Plus of course the huge hot red lump at the site of the injection and the high pitched screaming.

So if you 'work with them' then you should know it's autisms not autism then and shouldn't be treating it as one condition.

bigbuttons Sat 26-Oct-13 10:52:19

pag this happened to my eldest too. The lasting results weren't as devastating as they have been for yours though.
Ds1 stopped speaking after his mmr. He had terrible bowel issues, masses of undigested food and diarrhoea too for at least 2 years afterwards.
He stopped growing too and when he resumed growth it wasn't following his previous centile line.
He just seemed to shut down.
We were under all sorts of consultants who agreed that something had happened and something was wrong.
He also started what I can only describe as 'stimming'. He still does this but can control when he does it.
He is 15 now an to all intents and purposes a 'normal' boy. But he is not normal.
There is no way on earth I could take the chance with my other 5, no way. Everyone agreed that something had happened to him and as I said up thread no doctor or consultant was prepared to say there was or wasn't a connection.

bigbuttons Sat 26-Oct-13 13:52:46

Over the years on MN I have also realised when telling mr ds's MMR tale, that people don't want to listen or acknowledge. Perhaps Pag has the same experince?
You get threads like this, someone comes on raging against those who choose not to vaccinate. For them it is such a simple choice; Wakefield is a fraud, the MMr is safe.
Then I might come along an say what happened to my ds.
Then there is usually silence, no response and the thread 'dies'. No one has ever tried to tell me I am looking for things that aren't there. But people don't want to hear it either. It makes them uncomfortable, perhaps it threatens their views of the safety of vaccination for all.
I am not saying is WAS due to the MMR I am also not saying is WASN'T. But something did happen to him straight after he had his MMR.

When my younger 5 caught measels in 2012 I was relieved( finally it was here) and of course pretty scared. Yes they were pretty poorly but they came through without any issues.
There were a number of tut tutts and I patiently explained my reasons for deciding to allow this to happen. They had absolutely nothing to say in response. Hopefully it will make them think just a little bit before they judge someone who has chosen not to vaccinate.

Pixel Sat 26-Oct-13 19:23:49

Plus of course the huge hot red lump at the site of the injection and the high pitched screaming. sounds like my boy Pag sad.

He also lost skills. In his red book it says "waving bye bye, 11 months" (though I don't remember writing it, I was obviously rather blase about 'milestones' then). After his regression the next time he 'waved bye bye' he was 11 years old and waving from the taxi taking him to his SN school.
I must have imagined that he could wave previously.hmm

I have video of ds1 making sounds he can't make now. Like 'qua qua qua' on seeing ducks and 'sssssss' for snakes. He can't make those sounds now (he's a teenager).

The number of people who have never met him but know exactly what didn't happen to him always astounds me.

cherryademerrymaid Sat 26-Oct-13 22:50:53

Saintly - I actually took a couple of videos before LO2 went for first set of jabs...I have always felt uneasy about vaccinations and felt I needed to do that for various reasons. I question now why, when feeling so uneasy, I let LO2 go for her first lost - I suppose due to the whole responsibility for herd immunity, judgement etc's so easy to tell people they are being irresponsible not immunising but when your child becomes a statistic, well, that's a whole different thing.

Sunnysummer Sat 26-Oct-13 23:23:11

The Cochrane reviews by the independent Cochrane Collaboration are a good objective source of research - they are a network of thousands of specialists who produce meta reviews of all research available including work that you usually cannot get to without journal subscriptions.

They are not pro or anti vaccines generally - for example they recently produced one that was more sceptical of the flu vaccine.

Their 2012 summary on the combined MMR is here

To summarise on side effects:
"Results from two very large case series studies involving about 1,500,000 children who were given the MMR vaccine containing Urabe or Leningrad-Zagreb strains show this vaccine to be associated with aseptic meningitis; whereas administration of the vaccine containing Moraten, Jeryl Lynn, Wistar RA, RIT 4385 strains is associated with febrile convulsion in children aged below five years (one person-time cohort study, 537,171 participants; two self controlled case series studies, 1001 participants). The MMR vaccine could also be associated with idiopathic thrombocytopaenic purpura (two case-controls, 2450 participants, one self controlled case series, 63 participants).

We could assess no significant association between MMR immunisation and the following conditions: autism, asthma, leukaemia, hay fever, type 1 diabetes, gait disturbance, Crohn's disease, demyelinating diseases, or bacterial or viral infections."

treadheavily Sun 27-Oct-13 21:20:12

saintlyjimjams Now you are just being rude. Are you as rude to the people who work with your child?

Because of the way the children come to us, ie have social services input, their progress has been documented for as long as they have been "in the system". We have clear evidence of children being able to build block towers and utter recognisable phrases before their slide into developmental regression.

As I explained earlier, they have not all been immunised.

Not all children are picked up this early. I could cite many examples but it depends partly on the parents/caregiver's observations and willingness to get help.

Parents on here sound very devoted and alert. That is not the case for many children we observe.

Others don't want their child to be "labelled". A label is useful in that it serves as a ticket to specialist help, but it is entirely up to the family as to whether they sign up for it.

ModreB Sun 27-Oct-13 21:29:09

My DS3 is not fully vaccinated. DS1 & DS2 are.

The reasons are that DS3 got soo poorly after each vaccination, including hospital visits, and the fact that he nearly died, that I refused any more. The NHS refused single vaccines.

DS3 recently had the MMR that he missed, at the age of 13yo, and was in Hospital the same night due to the reaction

Why should the health of my child outweigh that of yours.

OHforDUCKScake Sun 27-Oct-13 21:36:44

ModreB unfortunately you have misunderstood me/not read the thread.

My point is, YOUR children should be protected as well as mine.

Thats the whole point. Those at risk, those whos bodies cant cope woth the vaccinations should be protected by those who can.

OHforDUCKScake Sun 27-Oct-13 21:40:02

ModreB to point out 'me' being the OP I changed back to my usual name. In case that was confusing. smile

I'm not bring rude. I think it's essential that people who work with kids with autism realise it's not one conditu

Condition. Especially if they are going to claim authority on the matter.

PicardyThird Sun 27-Oct-13 22:01:21

treadheavily, I can't see anything rude in saintly's post.

Doesn't it stand to reason that there is going to be a whole load of different triggers to regression and immunisation is just going to be one of those?

I don't have first-hand experience of this but I can imagine it is incredibly annoying for parents who know what they have experienced in their child to have their observations dismissed by people who have not made those observations but are certain they know better.

I am as pro-vaccinations as the next person but I was still cautious and concerned when it came to dc2 being vaccinated, as he had had Iv antibiotics at a very young age indeed and I have a small degree of experience of automimmune and allergic issues. He had single measles at 19mo and one MMR a year or so later when I felt happier about it.

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