to genuinely not understand why smoking is vilified

(257 Posts)
Redpipe Mon 14-Oct-13 12:41:28

and yet drinking, overeating and other addictions that cost the NHS huge sums of money are not?

AIBU to genuinely not understand why it is just smokers in this country that are socially unaccepted?

PeppiNephrine Mon 14-Oct-13 12:43:46

Really? You genuinely don't understand why people hate a habit that stinks out everything it comes near, is totally antisocial, and kills people they love in a horrible manner?
You haven't given it much thought, have you? hmm

NeverKnowinglyUnderstood Mon 14-Oct-13 12:45:01

For me it is because when I walk in the street and someone next to me has a mars bar I am not worried about where the hand goes with a hot smoking stick, I am not going to stink at the end of a night with someone eating cheesy pizza. I am not going to get ill from living with a chain biscuit eater.

It is about the effect on someone else. not about the ultimate cost. - For me.

HokeyCokeyPigInAPokey Mon 14-Oct-13 12:46:56

Have you spent any time thinking about this?!

It kills the smoker & can kill people around the smoker. I believe it has been linked to cot deaths too.....no, no I'm with you, no idea why confused

Chelvis Mon 14-Oct-13 12:50:20

To echo neverknowingly, I've never been blue lighted to hospital on a nebuliser suffering an asthma attack because of someone eating a twix next to me.

HokeyCokeyPigInAPokey Mon 14-Oct-13 12:50:44

That's it, that's what I am, I chain biscuit eater - I knew it was a proper condition, thanks never!'

TEErickOrTEEreat Mon 14-Oct-13 12:52:11

thlhmm

Really?

Are you being serious?? Really??

I have a long list but really, if you cannot reason with yourself on this one there is no hope.

mateysmum Mon 14-Oct-13 12:53:03

Er... because smoking not only kills the smoker but adversely affects the health of those around them. Smokers stink of smoke even when they aren't smoking. Their cars and houses stink, they inflect their addiction on many people. If they smoke in my house (which I would never allow) my house would stink. Cigarette butts are one of the most common forms of litter. Cigarettes are a common cause of house fires. shall I go on?????

Also, not sure that alcoholism and drug addiction are socially accepted as funding these habits often leads to crime.

Are you a smoker?

FoxyRevenger Mon 14-Oct-13 12:54:45

I have one cigarette a day, alone, in my back garden, so I'm pretty sure I'm not going to spark an asthma attack/set someone alight.

Am I free to go?

sonlypuppyfat Mon 14-Oct-13 12:56:27

Loving chain biscuit eater

tiggytape Mon 14-Oct-13 12:57:50

It is nothing to do with the cost to the NHS.

It is because it directly affects other people in a way that overeating doesn't. Nobody minds how much other people to drink either - unless they decide to drive or get into fights in which case they become socially unacceptable like smokers because they start affecting everyone around them.

You can do what you like with your own health but if you're breathing stinky fumes all over other people, it is unpleasant and a real problem for people with health conditions like asthma. Plus of course there are the long term risks of passive smoking and the links to cot death. As long as you’re not smoking near anyone else, most people won’t have a problem with what you choose to do but since smoke spreads out and lingers so much, that’s pretty hard for most smokers to manage.

Ruralninja Mon 14-Oct-13 12:58:17

Because with smoking it is directly causal in lung cancer, whereas the other things you mentioned are implicated in health problems but don't have the direct link to a specific disease in quite the same way.

Goldmandra Mon 14-Oct-13 13:00:45

*I have one cigarette a day, alone, in my back garden, so I'm pretty sure I'm not going to spark an asthma attack/set someone alight.

Am I free to go?*

Are you vilified and socially isolated because of your one cigarette a day lone in the garden?

RunnerHasbeen Mon 14-Oct-13 13:06:29

It is partly that there are safe or good levels of alcohol drinking and food eating, but no such thing for smoking. However, I would argue that overweight people do come under the same kind of attacks when it affects other people (seats on planes or trains, for example), the way smoking affects other people.

The NHS cost thing is a bit "one step removed" for it to be the actual basis of people's reactions. The smell and presence of smoke is much more emotive.

FlapJackOLantern Mon 14-Oct-13 13:07:33

There will ALWAYS be something that people go on about as though it is the world's worst crime - at the moment it is smoking. In a few years it will be something else. In my younger days it was nuclear war and pollution. Then climate change. Now smoking.

Obesity is going to the biggest killer yet, but people don't care because "I can't catch anything off an obese person, but I hate the smell of smoke".

But then there is always someone who will go on about ANYTHING that they don't do/understand.

Redpipe Mon 14-Oct-13 13:09:07

No I am not a smoker
However, drinking causes no end of social problems and deaths
Addiction to food causes premature death and huge cost to the nhs?
Yes I have thought about this

roadwalker Mon 14-Oct-13 13:12:06

well I hate having to get close to a smoker
I would hate for my dentsit/hairdresser/nurse/workmates- anyone I come into contact with- to be smokers, they stink and thats the best thing you can say about smokers
I have a friend who smokes, she is very careful not to smoke around anyone but I left a jacket at her flat, it stank when I got it

Redpipe Mon 14-Oct-13 13:22:54

So smoking directly affects others but drinking and over eating doesn't? really? hmm

How many third party alcohol related deaths do you think there are? Think, agression, drink driving etc. That directly affects the innocent non drinker just as breathing fumes third party can affect the innocent parties health.
Walking down the street and getting abuse from drunk groups or avoiding vomit directly affects the non drinker.

Watching health deteriorate from food addicts directly affects all our pockets through taxation.

I agree about safe levels argument runnerhasbeen although it could be argued that although food is necessary alcohol is not, it is poison after all!

katykuns Mon 14-Oct-13 13:26:01

Smokers aren't allowed to smoke indoors, so the risk of making other people ill is pretty low. I think it is just a bandwagon people jump on to attack other people's life choices. The amount of tax smokers pay more than accounts for the cost on the NHS. I personally think its none of anyone's business unless they are having smoke being blown in their faces.

I do however think that it doesn't stop at smokers, people really seem to like fatbashing these days, even though it has absolutely no effect on their lives. I think people just enjoy being judgemental cunts frankly.

UriGHOULer Mon 14-Oct-13 13:28:19

I think irresponsible behaviour like drink driving, alcohol fuelled fights and violent behaviour are villlified actually, even more than smoking.

expatinscotland Mon 14-Oct-13 13:28:56

Rural, over-eating and over-drinking have VERY direct links to particular diseases the same way smoking has.

cuppachai Mon 14-Oct-13 13:30:51

because it kills people and it stinks.

HTH.

creighton Mon 14-Oct-13 13:31:32

one person's cigarette killed over 50 people in the tube station fire in king's cross. other people have mentioned the health impact, smoking also makes everything smelly,ugly and dirty. when smoking was allowed in public transport, the carriages were disgusting, people ended up covered in smoke and ash.

itsonlysubterfuge Mon 14-Oct-13 13:31:52

Someone drinking or eating next to me doesn't cause me health problems, whereas someone smoking next to me can.

Smoking is disgusting. I don't think most overeaters blow food at you or drop hot chunks of food on you. Yet there are loads of smokers who think nothing of blowing nasty chemicals in my face and dropping hot ashes wherever they please. When I was in a wheelchair during pregnancy, I got loads of people tapping there ashes in my face.

PlatinumStart Mon 14-Oct-13 13:33:07

Er you haven't thought this through have you?

M0reC0ffee Mon 14-Oct-13 13:36:53

I think it's still surprisingly accepted and tolerated. I think the opposite. Considering it is toxic, addictive, and costs health boards around the World billions, it is still not exactly a traffic-stopping sight, to see people smoking, even teachers near the school!! that' s just an example. nurses outside the hospital. people outside offices and restaurants. Nobody bats an eyelid

Redpipe Mon 14-Oct-13 13:47:37

Platinumstart

er ...yes I have.

People making analogies to people not blowing food at them is just silly. Overeating and alcohol affects us all in different ways to smoking but it does affect us all.

Just one example. A father who regularly drinks over his alcohol units and is over weight and does no exercise has an increased chance of leaving his kids fatherless through stroke and the like. He is unlikely to get vilified in the same way a smoking father would though even if the father never smoked around his children.

And that's before even touching on the amount of abusive relationships where the abuse is alcohol driven.

If we were a country of moderate drinkers I would agree with the arguments that smoking affects third parties to a greater degree than alcohol. However, I think we are not a country of moderate drinkers and alcohol has far and wide negative implications for third parties.

monicalewinski Mon 14-Oct-13 13:48:27

they stink and thats the best thing you can say about smokers

hmm

Really roadwalker??

I know quite a few smokers and I can think of lots of much nicer and better things to say about them.

Goldmandra Mon 14-Oct-13 13:54:02

Alcohol is tolerated in this culture but not in all. For the vast majority alcohol is not harmful, nor does it adversely affect others indirectly.

Eating is a necessity. Over-eating does cost the NHS money but it isn't possible to give up eating and avoid the temptation. Again, for the vast majority of eaters their habit is not harmful and does not adversely affect others.

The vast majority of smoking does have an adverse effect on others, even outdoors and it is always immediately harmful to the smoker. It also isn't an extension of a process we need to engage in in order to stay alive.

The less socially acceptable it becomes the better for all concerned. That applies to overuse of alcohol too of course. Drink driving happens less often now, partly because those who do it meet open disapproval.

Obviously other addictions are vilified and drug addicts are very much social outcasts once their addiction is apparent to others.

Kewcumber Mon 14-Oct-13 13:54:02

if you think people who are morbidly obese or who binge drink don't get comments about their size/drinking then you're living in a different country to me.

Crinkle77 Mon 14-Oct-13 13:54:10

Someone drinking next to you could have health implications particularly if they turn aggressive or violent.

DeWe Mon 14-Oct-13 13:59:13

I wonder whether we will find smoking dies out much more as our children grow up.
I know we knew it was addictive and could give you cancer etc. but it was much more accepted. I used to buy my grandad's cigarettes from age of about 8yo, with the age restriction at 16yo. The staff room would often billlow with smoke when you opened the door, you'd have people smoking in restaurants next to you, at children's attractions etc.
Then it was a frequently mentioned in children's books-villains often smoked "smelly" cigarettes, or cigars if they were an upperclass sort of villain.
If you read "Blue Door Theatre" the main "nice" children in there are smoking-I think as a plot device to show that they're older, but it's totally presented as "of course they all lit up".

Now I can go for weeks not seeing anyone smoking.

And I think it must be talked about at school. I've never really talked to the dc about it, but we came out of the shops the other day and ds (age 6yo) saw a group smoking and he said. "Do they not know that will kill them? Should we tell them?" I told him that they probably knew and he looked at me shock and said "You mean people choose to smell nasty and die earlier?!?"

RichManPoorManBeggarmanThief Mon 14-Oct-13 14:01:43

I'm slightly on the fence. Living next door to smokers (as I do, in an apartment building) is more annoying than living next door to people who eat too much (no impact) or drink alcohol because their food and drink does not waft through my air vents. Only a minority of people who drink alcohol are also violent/ abusive. Many people who drink have absolutely no impact on other people at all. However, it is hard to smoke in public and not impact other people.

Also, there's the fact that you can eat and drink in moderation, but you cant really smoke in moderation so these things are not directly comparable.

However, all that aside, I think people do go OTT about smoking. Currently, people in my building are trying to petition management to ban smoking in the communal garden because there might be children playing there. Well, so long as the smokers aren't blowing the smoke in the kid's faces, let them have a cigarette in peace FFS. It's legal, and should continue to be so IMO (as a non-smoker)

fluffyraggies Mon 14-Oct-13 14:02:13

I don't understand why people question why one thing is thought of as bad when they can think of other bad things.

Why do we hate smoking when we could be hating alcohol and over eating ..... confused Who are all these people condoning drink driving, alcohol related DV and eating disorders while 'vilifying' smokers then?

It's like saying ... why are we doing things about cruelty to animals while there is things still to be done about cruelty to children? It is possible to do things about both!

RichManPoorManBeggarmanThief Mon 14-Oct-13 14:04:00

Also, the increase in obesity and the reduction in adults who smoke are not entirely unconnected. The grim reaper's gonna get you somehow grin

So the overweight drinker dad might die young. But the parent who smokes round other people DOES force them to inhale the exhaled smoke (which is more heavily laden with toxins than the smoke the smoker inhales, or so I have been told), and to go home stinking of cigarette smoke.

It is this immediate impact of even one cigarette that is so much more unacceptable than the potential, future impact of one drink or mars bar that makes smoking such a vilified activity.

And I would disagree with your basic premise - that smokers are vilified far moe than people who,are heavy drinkers/alcoholics - there have been a number of programmes showing the chaos and disruption caused by binge drinking, and it's impact on the emergency services - so where are all the reality tv programmes showing the effects of smoking?

Heavy/binge drinking is heavily vilified in the press and the media.

Davsmum Mon 14-Oct-13 14:10:28

Smoking CAN kill the smoker. It doesn't kill ALL smokers.
It doesn't kill ALL bystanders either.

Its best not to smoke - for everyone's sake.

However, alcohol kills many people, directly, and also indirectly when a drunken idiot decides to fight people or mow them down in their car.

These days I don't often see anyone smoking around non smokers. Non smokers seem to be quite safe now since they banned smoking indoors. You can ban people smoking in your house too - so you are most at risk if you decide to go into a smoker's house who choose to smoke in their own home.

Redpipe Mon 14-Oct-13 14:14:41

I don't think binge drinking is vilified in the main. I think a lot of people in this country think it's hilarious. I would say most high streets at the weekend are full of people over indulging leading to all manner of problems and costs to society.

ivykaty44 Mon 14-Oct-13 14:26:23

YANBU Op along with smoking being very harmful so are a lot of other things but these others things seem to be ignored and they should not be ignored.

I would like to see eating and smoking in the street banned, I would like to see drunks being charged for being drunk and dissordely and fined large sums of money

YouAreMyFavouriteWasteOfTime Mon 14-Oct-13 14:41:58

I spent years having to wash my hair and all my clothes following a night out somewhere smokey.

even if it was not harmful, it would still be an unsocial habit.

pianodoodle Mon 14-Oct-13 14:46:43

I completely understand why tobacco is vilified it is dangerous.

I don't like the way people who are addicted to it are vilified though when most others with an addiction would receive patience and help.

There is support but at the same time there is support for people watching their weight too, and they don't expect to be subjected to comments like being told they are pathetic or disgusting.

The next stage will be that we have to eat chocolate fudge cake outside in the cold. I can totally see that happening. sad

ivykaty44 Mon 14-Oct-13 14:50:13

I wouldn't want to be a paramedic or nurse in a&e having to deal with drunks and druggies abusing and attacking staff, it is unsociable and a disgrace

PipkinsPal Mon 14-Oct-13 14:51:13

Smokers stink. I don't want someone talking to me just after they have had a fag and having to smell their fag breath. Smoking killed my Uncle at the age of 44, he had throat cancer. It gives them revolting teeth, stained fingers, cataracts, bad skin, it yellows white hair and gets ingrained in carpets and wallpaper. They litter everywhere with their used fag butts and children of smokers usually end up as smokers themselves. I'm glad they have to go outside in the freezing cold and pissing rain to feed their addiction but I wish they wouldn't hog the beer gardens on a lovely summer evening puffing away and making it unpleasant for non-smokers.

ovenbun Mon 14-Oct-13 14:53:59

Davs mum but it does kill one in every two smokers...which is pretty bad odds..

I think all those habits do get condemned but the thing is although alcohol and overeating do cause harm to self/others sometimes, smoking harms at least yourself, every time.

you can have a few units of alcohol without doing your body damage, and the occaisional food binge...but one little cigarette and you're filling your lungs poisonous chemicals...inhaling tar, killing alveoli..etc etc

Although alcohol related aggression/violence etc does harm people not everyone who drinks next to you will harm you, where someone smoking next to you does cause you direct harm..it might not be long term or noticeable harm, but you will be inhaling poisionous chemicals which will cause direct damage.

I cant believe anywhere sells the stuff anymore now that we know what it does to us, but thats the power of money I guess.

Also for those who smoke outside, away from people, if you're not changing your clothes and having a shower after every cig, your hair, skin and clothing are wafting around little doses of the lovely poision to all those who come into contact with you, which isn't great...

After watching my nan drown in her own lungs from a smoking related cause, I feel pretty angry with the whole thing...not that you'd notice of course smile

friday16 Mon 14-Oct-13 14:54:23

Smoking's great for the economy. People pay a large amount of extra tax while living up until around the time they stop paying national insurance, at which point they die relatively cheaply before they manage to collect much of their pension.

Secondary smoking's health effects are contested, and in any event smokers are now so restricted in where they can smoke that I don't think I've actually seen anyone actually holding a cigarette in their hand, never mind smelt their foul emissions, in weeks. So all that money's collected, and saved, without affecting me in the slightest.

The NHS makes a massive profit on smoking, and would do so even if it wasn't taxed: dying of smoking related illnesses is cheap compared to the diseases of old age, and particular now we have stenting even such treatment as is available is cheap too.

The economic case would be better if smokers could be encouraged to smoke dirtier, higher tar cigarettes, but as things stand, they're paying money into the tax system in order to die young and cheap. What's not to like?

ivykaty44 Mon 14-Oct-13 14:58:36

So if you took yourself to a&e and you were told that there is a queue for three hours and two hours of that queue is due to staff having to deal with drunks - would you all be happy?

I would rather the drunks were not there and I only had to wait an hour

tbh if the people want to smoke outside a&e and i have to walk through a smoke screen to get in that would be less annoying than drinks making the queue three times as long

YouAreMyFavouriteWasteOfTime Mon 14-Oct-13 15:00:05

What's not to like?

the smell and rubbish. is that difficult to understand?

wordfactory Mon 14-Oct-13 15:01:24

I think the difference with smokers is that if they smoke in public every fag is pretty unpleasant for non smokers.

Whereas most alcohol consumption in public, for example, will have little impact upon those around.

And let's be honest, without the vilification of smoking and the ban, many many smokers would have merrily continued to smoke anywhere they were allowed regardless of the feelings of others.

KirjavaTheCorpse Mon 14-Oct-13 15:03:42

Because my mother being obese affected me far less than her disgusting chainsmoking habit did.

ivykaty44 Mon 14-Oct-13 15:04:33

wordfactory - I think that people don't understand or know the impact that drunkenness has on them or how they are or will be effected. Drunkeness has more than a little impact on those around

SaggyIsHavingAPinkKitten Mon 14-Oct-13 15:05:23

I take it you aren't overweight OP?
Because EVERY visit I make to the GP ends up on the subject of my weight, my potential for health problems and how I need to loose weight.
Try being PG and overweight. I'd say us fatties are vilified at every turn.

Other posters are right.
Smoking stinks, endangers other peoples lives and is thoroughly antisocial.

friday16 Mon 14-Oct-13 15:09:32

when smoking was allowed in public transport, the carriages were disgusting, people ended up covered in smoke and ash.

But now they aren't, so they don't. Ditto cinemas (I can remember when it was smoking one side, non-smoking the other), pubs, restaurants, workplaces, pretty well everywhere. Where are these places where you're involuntarily exposed to other people's smoking? Surely you don't actually have smokers in your house or car? Why would you do that?

wordfactory Mon 14-Oct-13 15:11:04

ivy yes drunkenness does have an impact.

But most people when they are drinking are not remotely drunk.

Having lunch in a restaurant, most customers having a glass of wine will be of no consequence to me. Yet every single fag smoked used to!

And that's the difference. Most of us drink. Most of us will not be damaged by it. Most of us will never impact upon others. But smoking by its very nature cannot work like that!

wordfactory Mon 14-Oct-13 15:12:17

But Friday smokers would still smoke in all those places if they were allowed!

As far as I ca see smokers have never stopped smoking anywhere until it was banned ie vilified!

Davsmum Mon 14-Oct-13 15:12:38

ovenbun One cigarette is not going to harm you that much and I doubt anyone would sit next to a smoker these days, enough times, for it to harm them.
Where would they sit next to a smoker? Smokers cannot smoke anywhere these days.
I have had a relative die as a direct result of smoking (certainly NOT nice!) - but I have also had relatives who have died through drinking - and it was the drinkers who caused the most pain and misery for everyone else.
My ex husband smoked and he became an alcoholic after we divorced - It was his drinking that caused my children most harm and pain. I would rather he had smoked around them than died from alcohol.

TrueStory Mon 14-Oct-13 15:13:12

Redpipe, I'm afraid the reason is often - self-righteousness and sanctimoniousness!!! People just love to be self-righteous, especially on Mumsnet!

Unless it directly effects you, why do people get so angry? People say its dirty and smelly (I suppose it is a bit) but if you don't like it don't stand next to me.

And agree, alcohol probably causes a lot more harm to other people in reality.

And cars! New research shows that pollution created by cars is the main trigger for asthma, not cigarettes!

But I don't see people say - "Oh you have a car, how disgusting, it causes pollution and asthma attacks!"

zatyaballerina Mon 14-Oct-13 15:13:16

Someone gorging on crap harms their own self poisoned body, it has no effect on others environment, it doesn't poison the air in confined spaces leaving others feeling sick or nauseous, it doesn't give other people breathing difficulties and make them cough, it's fumes aren't dangerous to those who are asthmatic or have other illness which make them very sick around smoke, being in the long term presence of a junk food eater won't give you any of the diseases they're inflicting on themselves, second hand smoke causes cancer, heart attacks, asthma attacks....

Smoking affects everybody in the smokers area, it causes discomfort, health issues and disease for people who didn't choose those risks. Same can't be said for junk food. Alcohol is only a problem with a few drinkers who abuse it and behave badly, the alcohol itself doesn't endanger anyone else.

NoComet Mon 14-Oct-13 15:15:30

I have to watch my lovely DDad dying slowly of heart failure and realise his chain smoking may well play a part in my hearing problems.

Cigarettes are not my favourite things

friday16 Mon 14-Oct-13 15:16:00

Having lunch in a restaurant, most customers having a glass of wine will be of no consequence to me. Yet every single fag smoked used to!

Indeed, it used to. But it doesn't any more. You can go from one week's end to the next and not see, never mind smell, a lit cigarette. The odd occasions you do smell one you can console yourself that the economy is making a massive net benefit out of it. There's plenty of other ways to be a anti-social and self-destructive, but few of them are as heavily taxed as smoking.

TrueStory Mon 14-Oct-13 15:20:47

The only people who seriously got a health risk from secondary smoking were people who worked in clubs and bars, jazz musicians and the like.

Read up about the real triggers of asthma these days in latests research - its pollution from cars.

You cannot really smoke anywhere these days except your own home (and even then ... in rented flats you usually can't smoke as a condition of the tenancy).

Why people are getting so angry about something that doesn't even happen now in public life is weird to me.

I don't smoke and I'm glad I don't smoke, but I don't feel the need to go round being angry with smokers. Weird.

NotYoMomma Mon 14-Oct-13 15:21:32

shrug

it stinks, causes cancer, it stinks, looks horrible, stinks, lots of people smoke outside hospital doors not following rules, it stinks.

I don't like when people drink so much they end up in a&e or are sick either. because it stinks

sensitive nose in pregnancy

I have no time for other recreational activities such as casual weed smoking, drug taking, getting pissed (the occasional drink is fine as that doesnt hurt anyone or smell too bad)

....

it really does smell terrible

NotYoMomma Mon 14-Oct-13 15:24:03

are people sayong smokers dont congregate around hospital doors and restaurants or smoke in beer gardens or even play areas or bus stops? ive seen all of these examples

lets not delude ourselves that you all only smoke in your own houses or gardens

JaquelineHyde Mon 14-Oct-13 15:27:41

Redpipe being overweight is vilified just as much as smoking is.

I have had abuse hurled at me in the street by complete strangers just because I am over weight.

I suspect smokers occasionally get the odd tut or 'disgusting' comment said under the breath but because I am fat some people find it perfectly acceptable to shout the most hideous things at me, also look at me with utter disgust and then snigger or whisper stuff to friends once they think I am out of earshot.

wordfactory Mon 14-Oct-13 15:27:48

But friday the only reason we have reached this relatively pleasant state of affairs is because as a nation we have vilified smoking!

If we had continued tolerating it, smokers would still be smoking everywhere and anywhere they could.

friday16 Mon 14-Oct-13 15:30:01

The only people who seriously got a health risk from secondary smoking were people who worked in clubs and bars, jazz musicians and the like.

And even then, the evidence is pretty sketchy. The set of jazz musicians who spent a lot of time in smoky clubs but didn't themselves smoke is a pretty small one.

Why people are getting so angry about something that doesn't even happen now in public life is weird to me.

Quite. It's nasty habit that people really should get out of, but not one that affects me in the slightest other than in the massive amounts of tax that smokers pay and I don't.

friday16 Mon 14-Oct-13 15:32:31

But friday the only reason we have reached this relatively pleasant state of affairs is because as a nation we have vilified smoking!

That's true. But it's a solved problem now. Smokers cause almost no difficulty, and the tax that they pay is a massive, massive net profit for the exchequer. Why bother continuing to vilify them when they're doing us such a massive favour?

YouAreMyFavouriteWasteOfTime Mon 14-Oct-13 15:45:16

Why bother continuing to vilify them when they're doing us such a massive favour?

because the tax does not stop is smelling.

I have has to wash my clothes and hair - I guess hundreds of times in my youth.

smoke increases the chance of me getting a cold.

paying tax does not make the above acceptable to me.

friday16 Mon 14-Oct-13 15:50:18

I have has to wash my clothes and hair - I guess hundreds of times in my youth.

But in the last ten years? Not so much. It's a solved problem. Where are you going such that people are smoking around you?

smoke increases the chance of me getting a cold.

Leaving aside the implausibility of that, again, where are you going such that you are even in the same room as someone smoking?

Mumoftwoyoungkids Mon 14-Oct-13 15:56:02

But Youaremy The smell is no longer really a problem as (unless you choose to be in the house of a smoker) you are never in a room with a smoker.

My dislike of smokers pretty much ended on 1st July 2007 when they stopped being allowed to smoke near me when I'm inside. Before that I hated them - now I'm much less bothered.

Rubbish is still a problem but as someone who pushes a buggy everywhere I am far more annoyed by broken beer bottles on the ground that might give me a puncture.

Friday has a good point about the economy - smokers are basically selflessly laying down their lives in order for the rest of us to be able to claim our cheaper pensions. And they pay loads of tax for the privilege! And they no longer wreck my lovely pub lunch by smoking on the next table!

YouAreMyFavouriteWasteOfTime Mon 14-Oct-13 15:56:55

largely not in the last 10 years. but I am still glad they cannot smoke like before the ban. its the only reason for the change in behaviour.

where are you going such that you are even in the same room as someone smoking?

to stay with relatives, who say they won't smoke when we are staying, because DP has an auto immune disease which is adversely effected by smoke, but do anyway.

so as I said, I really like the ban.

friday16 Mon 14-Oct-13 16:01:31

to stay with relatives, who say they won't smoke when we are staying, because DP has an auto immune disease which is adversely effected by smoke, but do anyway.

So don't visit them, then. See, that was easy, wasn't it?

YouAreMyFavouriteWasteOfTime Mon 14-Oct-13 16:02:58

I bet you are the life and soul of a party grin

VivaLeThrustBadger Mon 14-Oct-13 16:04:43

Because a smoker directly affects me by been smelly and blowing smoke at me. Before the smoking ban it meant been unable to eat out due to the smell and risk secondary cancer if I went into a pub.

Yes an obese person may cost the nhs money and risk leasing their kids fatherless, etc but that doesn't affect me directly. Selfish but true.

Branleuse Mon 14-Oct-13 16:06:00

i dont get it either.

As long as the smoker is reasonable about it and keeps it away from non smokers as much as possible, I dont see why its anyone elses business

VivaLeThrustBadger Mon 14-Oct-13 16:08:11

Been on a crowded Oxford St the other weekend I was directly affected by smokers. Even dd was pulling faces as people walked along with fags at her face height in close proximity. It wasn't nice.

When I walk into work I have to run the gauntlet of patients smoking outside the entrance, literally have to go through a cloud of fag smoke. They're not meant to smoke their but in the past when I've nicely pointed that out I've had a mouthful of abuse. They can't be arsed to walk 15ft to the smoking area. And the smell comes through the window frames into the ground floor consulting rooms and makes them smell. I have opened the window mid appt before now and told someone to move.

specialsubject Mon 14-Oct-13 16:08:32

I'm not particularly enamoured of drunks that need to be picked up by the NHS and make many places so unpleasant. But they do tend to stick to certain times of day.

smokers light up all the time, leave rubbish everywhere and SMELL HORRIBLE. If you smoke, you and your clothes reek, and also your stinky stick is really unpleasant for anyone downwind. And there is no magic curtain to keep it outdoors - it does appear that smoking makes you very stupid too.

don't care if you die early, that's your problem.

YouAreMyFavouriteWasteOfTime Mon 14-Oct-13 16:09:29

branleuse - IME the level of consideration from smokers, is veerrrrry low.

so we have laws and good.

GrandpaInMyBlender Mon 14-Oct-13 16:12:12

I wish I could go weeks without smelling smoke! I walk everywhere and there's always some selfish fucker smoking while dawdling along. The amount of times we just stop and wait until they're long gone because its impossible to overtake them with a pram (narrow paths round here). Then there's the lovely neighbours who can't smoke in their rented house who do it right outside ours instead. So we can't risk leaving the windows open for fresh air.

I think the reason a lot if people dislike smokers more than drinkers or overeaters is its in your face much more in daily life. To see drunk people I'd have to be in a place where drunk people hang out. Its generally avoidable. Whereas smokers are everywhere.

FlapJackOLantern Mon 14-Oct-13 16:12:14

vive - well if authority hadn't taken away smoking 'places' and had given cafes/pubs the choice to be smoking/non smoking..........then people wouldn't be forced to walk down Oxford Street or stand outside where you work, would they? Tttch!

friday16 Mon 14-Oct-13 16:12:20

Because a smoker directly affects me by being smelly...Yes an obese person may cost the nhs money and risk leaving their kids fatherless, etc but that doesn't affect me directly

Smoking, like being fat, saves the NHS money. Oh, you want evidence? I've got Peer-reviewed papers and shit. The people who cost the NHS most are non-fat people who don't smoke. Smokers both cost less and pay in more, through taxation on cigarettes. Fat people don't pay as much extra tax, but the NHS is still hugely in profit because of their reduced life expectancy. And that's before we consider reduced pension costs due to lower life expectancy.

Redpipe Mon 14-Oct-13 16:13:04

jaquelinehyde
I'm so sorry to hear your story. sad

JaquelineHyde Mon 14-Oct-13 16:15:26

Jesus Christ there is some sanctimonious bullshit on this thread!

JaquelineHyde Mon 14-Oct-13 16:16:21

Oh don't worry Redpipe I have learnt to live with it and have recently lost 10 stone so the abuse is far less than it used to be. Although I am still large.

frumpet Mon 14-Oct-13 16:21:46

air pollution is a bigger killer than passive smoking , road traffic accidents and obesity . It doesnt say that it is a bigger killer than actually smoking cigarettes though . So smoking cigarettes is very bad for you , especially if you do it outside as you are hit with the double whammy of air pollution too .

pianodoodle Mon 14-Oct-13 16:21:55

*i dont get it either.

As long as the smoker is reasonable about it and keeps it away from non smokers as much as possible, I dont see why its anyone elses business*

I think it's because it's an easy target, and an acceptable one.

No one's going to disagree with someone if they post about how awful smoking is because everyone knows it's a health risk etc..

They aren't really saying anything new but it makes them feel better to know they are somehow superior (in their minds) to someone else in whatever small way they can find ;)

MurderOfBanshees Mon 14-Oct-13 16:27:48

I think it's more that if someone is sat next to you having one glass of alcohol then the chances of you being affected by it are slim to none. They'd need to have a few for their drinking to start affecting others.

But a smoker only needs to smoke one cigarette next to somebody for it to affect them. So it is antisocial even when in moderation.

Redpipe Mon 14-Oct-13 16:31:59

Jacqueline

Well done.

VivaLeThrustBadger Mon 14-Oct-13 16:37:51

Flapjack, did you read my post fully about the designated smoking area at the hospital less than 30seconds walk away which they ignore?

propertyNIGHTmareBEFOREXMAS Mon 14-Oct-13 16:38:55

I hate smoking with a passion. I loathe walking through cigarette smoke and consider those who smoke around children to be utter, filthy, selfish cunts.

YouAreMyFavouriteWasteOfTime Mon 14-Oct-13 16:39:52

to genuinely not understand why smoking is vilified

lets look at the effects of 2nd hnad smoke on children:

"Breathing in secondhand smoke is particularly harmful for children. Children who breathe in secondhand smoke have an increased risk of:

•cot death (sudden infant death syndrome or SIDS) – this is twice as likely in babies whose mothers smoke
•developing asthma – smoking can also trigger asthma attacks in children who already have the condition
•serious respiratory (breathing) conditions such as bronchitis and pneumonia – younger children are also much more likely to be admitted to hospital for a serious respiratory infection
•meningitis
•coughs and colds
•middle ear disease, such as otitis media (a middle ear infection), which can cause hearing loss"

www.nhs.uk/chq/Pages/2289.aspx?CategoryID=53&SubCategoryID=536

is that list insufficient to vilify smoking?

FlapJackOLantern Mon 14-Oct-13 16:40:32

Viva - most hospitals have done away with them. Ours certainly has. Now EVERYBODY has to walk the gauntlet.

Redpipe Mon 14-Oct-13 16:41:45

I think the first few replies to my OP sum up exactly the over sensitivity to the one vice.

Posters in disbelief that I can't see how obvious it is that it really is the work of the devil over and above any other vice in society.

I would personally say cars cause more deaths and illnesses through pollution than any smoker does nowadays. Also that alcohol probably wrecks far more lives than smoking ever will.

DontMentionThePrunes Mon 14-Oct-13 16:42:42

Well, it stinks, it makes people who don't smoke stink even if they are standing apart from smokers, and it makes people you love die slowly and horribly.
And I can't now sit outside a cafe with a lovely coffee in the sunshine minding my own business, because someone will come and light up next to me and make me stink. Cheers pal.

Redpipe Mon 14-Oct-13 16:43:21

YouAreMyFavouriteWasteOfTime

I don't think you fully read my OP

WinkyWinkola Mon 14-Oct-13 16:44:49

Not least because it stinks.

I mean you would grimace if you had to sit next to someone with B.O. and imo, fags on breath, hair and clothes really smell as bad, if not worse.

And people who work and have a fag and come back reeking - how is this professional? Is it professional to smell foul?

DontMentionThePrunes Mon 14-Oct-13 16:45:23

My mother (lifelong smoker all through pregnancies, my childhood, still smoking despite various relatives dropping dead etc etc, thanks mum) tells me there is no point telling smokers they stink because it just makes them want to light up to spite you.
So that's nice and mature.
I wish the smell could be described to smokers in language that would make them understand how badly they smell of it.

VivaLeThrustBadger Mon 14-Oct-13 16:47:07

Our hospital did away with them initially and everyone was meant to walk to the road to smoke. Of course nobody did. So they introduced a smoking bay but its still ignored.

trianglecirclesquare Mon 14-Oct-13 16:52:33

Plenty of people drink alcohol with no ill effect, either to them or anyone around them. Smoking always impacts the smoker negatively, and always impacts negatively on those around them.

Also, the result of anti-smoking laws has been: fewer people smoke where a ban is in place; the effects of second hand smoke have dropped to almost nothing outside a smoker's home; non-smokers can go out in public without coming home smelling of smoke. It's an easy public-health win.

Anti-alcohol Prohibition laws in the US proved not nearly as successful.

friday16 Mon 14-Oct-13 16:54:23

And people who work and have a fag and come back reeking - how is this professional? Is it professional to smell foul?

It's perfectly legal to refuse to employ smokers, and it's perfectly legal to write that into their contract of employment and sack them for breaching it. Even if they only smoke at home.

So it's even more reasonable to assume that if a company's staff reek of smoke, the company itself doesn't care, and act accordingly.

McFox Mon 14-Oct-13 16:58:34

I work in chronic disease management and of course it's vilified!!

Chronic respiratory diseases, including COPD (of which smoking is the major cause) is the only major cause of death whose incidence is increasing and it has a huge economic impact. The NHS spends almost £3 billion a year on treating the effects of it. Europe spends €100 billion.

This is part of the reason why the NHS is under financial pressure - treating people who continue to smoke is unsustainable. We just can't afford to continue spending billions on people who refuse to give up, and this is why over 50% of clinicians want to refuse treatment to smokers. Treating them is a waste of money, because not only are they actively doing something that will most likely kill them, some treatments given for other diseases they might gave will be less effective as a result.

So yes, it is vilified because it is downright selfish and unjustifiable and I find it shocking that a grown up who should understand basic scientific facts and economics should be throwing this kind of adolescent opinion about.

roadwalker Mon 14-Oct-13 17:02:08

monicalewinski - I did actually mean to say smoking stinks, I cant think of anything good to say about smoking. My lovely friend (who I can say lots of good things about) hates the smell of smoking even though she cant seem to find the willpower to stop

roadwalker Mon 14-Oct-13 17:03:27

I cant think of a good thing to say about smoking though
I watched my father die a horrible death of lung cancer and I have with people with COPD
Having to rely on O2 16-24 hours a day is not fun

propertyNIGHTmareBEFOREXMAS Mon 14-Oct-13 17:03:49

Round of applause for McFox. Very well said.

FrameyMcFrame Mon 14-Oct-13 17:05:25

Nicotine is the most addictive substance known to man.
Smoking it kills you.

It should be ILEGAL.

(Watched D ex P die of lung cancer last year. Please don't smoke)

My mother died from smoking related cancer. I always hated it and feel ill when forced to breathe in other peoples' smoke.

My mother also had a drinking problem, and while I agree that excessive alcohol consumption is a big problem, her drinking did not affect me 20x a day as her smoking did.

Social drinking (ie drinking which is not a problem) doesn't impact me, while social smoking definitely does.

I think it should continue to be vilified (along with binge drinking).

Retroformica Mon 14-Oct-13 17:08:17

Well you can smoke passively but your unlikely to eat or drink passively

My mum and dad both smoked like chimneys. Dad gave up when I was in my teens, but mum still smokes as much as ever. I am absolutely convinced that growing up in a constantly smoky atmosphere has led to long term effects on my health. Whenever I get a cold, it goes straight to my chest - even now - and I have lost count of the number of chest infections I have had.

I don't know how many parents smoke nowadays, but I bet not all of those parents who do smoke, smoke outside, so there are still little children breathing in second hand smoke - which increases the risk of childhood cancers and other serious problems such as asthma, and according to the American cancer society, this causes:

Between 150,000 and 300,000 lower respiratory tract infections (lung and bronchus) in children under 18 months of age, with 7,500 to 15,000 hospitalizations each year.

Breathing second hand smoke also increases the risk of SIDS.

Basically, a smoker who smokes around another person, is causing that person to inhale more than 7000 chemicals, of which 250 are known to be harmful, and 69 are known to cause cancer.*

* - American Cancer Society http://www.cancer.org/cancer/cancercauses/tobaccocancer/secondhand-smoke

PatoBanton Mon 14-Oct-13 17:11:17

What McFox said, too. Sorry. I hate drinking too - well, drinking to excess. I don't drink. I don't get it.

an issue with food or other substance that is required to function is different.

SatinSandals Mon 14-Oct-13 17:12:50

I don't think that smokers have any idea how vile they smell! I can pass one in the street and they reek of it. This is apart from the effects of their smoking in others. It is a proved killer so I can't think why anyone would persist in doing it.

PatoBanton Mon 14-Oct-13 17:14:36

Btw I thought it was already a thing that clinicians could refuse to treat someone who drinks persistently to the point of self destruction.

My uncle is a case in point - he has had various transplants and is on dialysis, I don't know the details but he didn't stop drinking and they did stop offering certain solutions.

wordfactory Mon 14-Oct-13 17:16:46

Also, smokers will continue to devalue the opinions of others about smoking.

They will say we just want to feel superior.
That it is no longer a bother to anyone else.
That it's actually cars causing health problems...

And on and on and on and on and on...

Never will they seem to admit that others simply find it revolting.

janey68 Mon 14-Oct-13 17:21:22

OP- first and foremost because eating and consuming alcohol are not harmful per se (only when done to excess or unhealthily are they bad for you) whereas there is no such thing as a harmless cigarette. You are choosing to put toxins into your body and to pollute the air around you.

Secondly, I disagree that obesity and drinking to excess aren't vilified. I think they are widely regarded as socially unacceptable, particularly in terms of the financial costs to the NHS and emergency services, and the social impact of things like binge drinking

Thirdly you talk as though people who smoke, drink to excess or eat to excess are 3 distinct groups. Whereas in reality there are lots of overlaps. Thinking of the smokers I know (which admittedly aren't many as far fewer people are daft enough to do it) they do seem to be the ones who eat pretty unhealthily, for example. Which is kind of logical in as far as all these things are essentially about not caring about your physical well being

madhairday Mon 14-Oct-13 17:21:33

What McFox said.

My dad smoked heavily when I was little and I had repeated pneumonia and bronchitis, resulting in permanent scarring of the lungs leading to chronic respiratory disease which is life limiting and severely crap to live with. So yeh, I villify smoking. I don't blame dad, he had no idea of the effects on health at the time and he did later give up, thankfully.

Now I have to run the gauntlet of smokers every time I go to the hospital - the respiratory dept is the worst hmm and yes, it makes me ill. Most memorable time was being blue lighted in when pg after someone lit up next to me in a bus shelter and I pretty much collapsed. These are not mythical situations made up by people who like being sanctimonious. I believe in a free country and all that, but I reckon my right to breathe trumps your right to smoke, actually.

And, experiencing first hand the effects of degenerative lung disease, I get angry, really angry, with people who smoke because I know what it is like and I cannot imagine why these people would wilfully do something that may result in my experience. You don't want it, I can promise you, you don't want the feeling of drowning and choking and hideous pain and not even 02 making it better. It's just not worth it.

And let's not go with those who assume I've bought this on myself - 'that's a nasty cough, one too many fags' and much worse. I didn't, but many did, and that's what saddens me.

friday16 Mon 14-Oct-13 17:25:49

We just can't afford to continue spending billions on people who refuse to give up,

Yeah, we can. It's still cheaper than treating them for other things during the extra years they would otherwise live. See here: proper peer-reviewed evidence, not "won't somebody think of the smokers".

Figure 1.

Lifetime health costs at age 20, obese: 250k Euro. Lifetime health costs at age 20, smoker: 220k. Lifetime health costs at age 20, "healthy living": 281k.

Throw in the extra pension costs of someone living an extra seven years (healthy life expectancy at 20 is 84.4, smoker is 77.4) at about 8k Euro per annum and smokers cost the country over 100k Euro less. And they pay a shitload of tax, too.

There's lots of reasons to decry smoking. Costs to the welfare state are not amongst them.

pianodoodle Mon 14-Oct-13 17:28:33

an issue with food or other substance that is required to function is different

It's different because it isn't an addictive substance, therefore should be easier to cut down and no great hardship to simply stop over eating?

Yet it seems to be difficult for lots of people. If you take that nicotine is addictive then it is much more difficult to simply stop, unfortunately.

pianodoodle Mon 14-Oct-13 17:28:34

an issue with food or other substance that is required to function is different

It's different because it isn't an addictive substance, therefore should be easier to cut down and no great hardship to simply stop over eating?

Yet it seems to be difficult for lots of people. If you take that nicotine is addictive then it is much more difficult to simply stop, unfortunately.

janey68 Mon 14-Oct-13 17:29:50

And the argument about cars and buses causing more pollution and deaths is a red herring. Transport serves a necessary purpose, smoking doesn't. Also, cars being driven safely don't cause accidents- it is other factors such as carelessness, stupidity etc

Topseyt Mon 14-Oct-13 17:31:03

My parents are both smokers, and always have been. My dad smoked a pipe and my mum chain-smoked cigarettes. I grew up with it, although neither my sister nor I have ever smoked at all.

I am on the fence here, not because I condone smoking at all because I don't, but because they were still lovely parents and still are. Very supportive, and they always strongly advised us NEVER to take up the habit. They are both in their late 70s now, and I see them maybe a couple of times a year because of the distance we live apart (we phone regularly though). I do notice the cigarette smell when I visit their house now that I don't live with it. I wish that they had ever been able to give up for the good of their health, but at their age it is not going to happen.

True though that cigarettes and alcohol bring in a lot of tax for each successive government. Ironic, really.

janey68 Mon 14-Oct-13 17:37:57

The money argument is the weakest one of all IMO.

Even if smokers bring in more money in tax than they cost in medical treatment, that's hardly a favorable argument is it? It's hardly ethically right to suggest it's a good thing that some people choose to poison their bodies because actually it brings extra money into the public purse? hmm

Anyway, what kind of idiot voluntarily pays wad loads more tax to the govt through smoking? Don't they think they pay enough already??!

Icantstopeatinglol Mon 14-Oct-13 17:43:32

.....because my best friends husband at the grand old age of 35 is currently battling lung cancer brought on from passive smoking! He has never smoked in his life! Really? What a ridiculous thread!! If he had something related to overeating or drinking then at least it would be something he had done.
They have a 3yr old child.

ivykaty44 Mon 14-Oct-13 17:55:26

we are the least smoking nation in Europe bar Sweden and Finland, and there are a whopping 73 countries that smoke more than the UK, we smoke 750 fags per person per year compared with over 2000 for the top nations

Alisvolatpropiis Mon 14-Oct-13 18:00:44

I don't know why you care op.

I smoke and I make a conscious effort to avoid pissing people off when in public.

But I am one of those annoying smokers who smokes in the beer garden of a summer evening. I'm also likely to be found smoking in the beer garden in bleakest January as well. I don't sit next to people and light up. I sit away from them. If people then choose to come and sit next to me that is not my problem.

I'll give up at some point I imagine but until then <shrug>

ivykaty44 Mon 14-Oct-13 18:12:01

2.6 billion made from VAT on smoking

the cost of smoking to the NHS is 5 billion per year

so there is a £2.4 billion gap

but alcohol is just as bad

www.alcoholconcern.org.uk/assets/files/PolicyandCampaigns/HMT_-_alcohol_tax_and_price_review_August_2010.pdf Alcohol misuse is a costly business. Not just for individuals and their families but also to society, through unemployment, welfare benefits, health care costs and housing support. The cost of problem drinking to society as a whole is estimated at between £17 billion and £22 billion1. These costs will increase unless strategic action is taken.

Approximately £9 billion is collect in tax from alcohol sales.

alcohol is far more costly to the nation than smoking

friday16 Mon 14-Oct-13 18:25:29

Ivykaty, do you read the links you post?

£2.6bn in VAT. £9.5bn in excise duty. Less £5bn in cost to the NHS. profit: £7.1bn. What on earth makes you think there's a £2.4bn deficit? Why doesn't excise duty count?

PatoBanton Mon 14-Oct-13 18:54:10

It's different because it isn't an addictive substance, therefore should be easier to cut down and no great hardship to simply stop over eating?

That isn't the reason I had in mind.

ivykaty44 Mon 14-Oct-13 19:02:21

friday so which is costing more drinking or smoking?

friday16 Mon 14-Oct-13 19:10:27

so which is costing more drinking or smoking?

Don't know, don't care. The point is that, on the figures you yourself posted, the treasury is £7.1bn a year up on smoking, even before you consider the shortened life expectancies and the effect those have on pension costs. Smoking is good for the economy. More would be better. The deaths it causes are mostly of older, less well educated, less skilled workers who have mostly already retired, the to value to the economy of the lost years is zero.

Look, I think people dying young is bad, and the only reason I don't want yet more prohibitive controls on tobacco is because, in general, prohibition doesn't work (look at how fantastically successful it's been keeping cocaine and heroin illegal, for example). But of all the reasons to want to continue to reduce the number of people who smoke, cost simply isn't one: the country makes a massive profit out of the early deaths.

janey68 Mon 14-Oct-13 20:29:26

friday is correct in that statistically, the smokers who pour extra tax into public funds (ta very much!) are more likely to be less well educated and skilled and to die younger thus costing less in pensions and old age care. That's not making a value judgement, it's simply statistically true; smoking has dropped dramatically particularly among the better educated and more highly skilled.

Even so, it's not much of an argument for smoking, is it? That it bungs some extra money in the pot and bumps off a sector of the population...

Alisvolatpropiis Mon 14-Oct-13 20:39:03

I am clearly an unusual smoker in that I'm well educated just wilfully stupid but I can imagine those statistics are fairly accurate with 25's and under. Not so much older age groups.

friday16 Mon 14-Oct-13 20:40:30

Even so, it's not much of an argument for smoking, is it? That it bungs some extra money in the pot and bumps off a sector of the population...

Absolutely: it's an incredibly bad argument. But unfortunately, it's both the economic reality and a necessary consequence of the argument too many anti-smoking lobbyists make.

The argument runs:

1. IF smoking costs the economy money THEN it should be discouraged.
2. Smoking DOES cost the economy money
1+2=3: Smoking SHOULD be discouraged.

Unfortunately, point 2 is uproariously wrong. Hence by their own argument, we should be encouraging smoking.

No-one seriously believes this. Lives cut short are a bad thing, lives cut short with serious morbidity for a long time prior to death doubly so. But that's not because it's a cost thing, that's because longer, happier lives are generally a good thing irrespective of cost.

JaquelineHyde Mon 14-Oct-13 20:45:11

Two things I would just like to point out are

1) Compulsive overeating can be an addiction and is treated as such by most expert professionals who deal with its results on a daily basis. Because of this it is actually the most difficult addiction to kick because you can't go cold turkey from food like you can with all other addictive substances.

2) People who drink, especially those who drink to excess also stink! I would rather stand next to a smoker in a queue than someone who had had several drinks the night before because you may not realise it but the reek pours out of every pore in your body and it is not nice.

friday16 Mon 14-Oct-13 20:47:18

Not so much older age groups.

Nah. Smoking is inversely correlated with both income and education in all age groups. Better educated and more affluent people (and those from such backgrounds) are less likely to start and more likely to stop if they do start.

janey68 Mon 14-Oct-13 20:48:27

I think to be fair most people who are anti smoking are more concerned with the fact that its really, really bad for you. Just as eating crap every day or drinking to excess is bad for you. Most of us go to great lengths to try to instil good habits in our children regarding these things, and it just seems to go against the grain to smoke. Particularly for parents because statistically if you're a smoker, your kids are more likely to be too. And don't even get me started on the adults who think they're having a cheeky smoke without their kids knowing... I've known a couple of parents who think that...

The financial argument is pretty tricky to unravel because so many facts and figures are flung about, but in all honesty I don't think the average person is too bothered about that, it's more the fact that smokers smell rank

CharityFunDay Mon 14-Oct-13 21:20:34

...because my best friends husband at the grand old age of 35 is currently battling lung cancer brought on from passive smoking! He has never smoked in his life!

I hate to sound callous, and I feels sorry for your friend, but this is what's known as 'Roy Castle Syndrome'.

There is no way of proving that second-hand smoke caused his cancer, it's very unlikely that it did, and non-smokers get lung cancer too.

ivykaty44 Mon 14-Oct-13 23:01:40

friday no you don't care and you have no idea of the figures - look carefully I put in the link VAT - the cost of smoking is much more than the cost to just the NHS - it is nearly 14 billion, when you take into account lost days at work, early retirement, loss in productivity from smoking breaks passive smoking, house fires, even the cost of giving up smoking costs money etc etc.

onefewernow Mon 14-Oct-13 23:02:49

I gave up two weeks ago and never want to smoke again.

I started when I was doing my PhD twenty five years ago.

Make if that what you will ...

onefewernow Mon 14-Oct-13 23:05:11

Mind you, it's undeniably bad for you. My lungs are appalling.

AnandaTimeIn Mon 14-Oct-13 23:08:44

Yea, smokers are the new pariahs.

Never mind all those disgusting smoke-belching cars that do far more damage as you walk down the road... never mind all those wars fought over the oil

Some people have it all the wrong way round!

Ugh!

Icantstopeatinglol Mon 14-Oct-13 23:18:29

Non-smokers who reside with a smoker have a 24% increase in risk for developing lung cancer when compared with other non-smokers.

and this is not selfish? Really?
If I choose to eat ridiculous amounts or even drink too much it's not going to have an affect on those around me. Plus what about asthma sufferers, it annoys me that smokers have this 'its my choice' attitude but what about other people's choice not to inhale their smoke?
That is why it's looked down on.

Goldmandra Mon 14-Oct-13 23:21:24

I would personally say cars cause more deaths and illnesses through pollution than any smoker does nowadays. Also that alcohol probably wrecks far more lives than smoking ever will.

I don't know the figures for sure but I wouldn't mind betting that smoking causes more serious illness and death than exhaust pollution and alcohol combined.

HappyGoLuckyGirl Mon 14-Oct-13 23:25:22

biscuit

ovenbun Tue 15-Oct-13 08:29:12

Davsmum really sorry to hear about your experiences and loss, I can completely appreciate why someone who has been through that would feel that alcohol was very much worse than smoking.

Seperate from our personal experiences, one in every 2 smokers die from smoking related causes...alcohol addiction and death is just as terrible, but less common.

This report is pretty depressing..

*Deaths caused by smoking 2011 79,100
Smoking is the leading cause of preventable death and disease in the UK. About half of all lifelong
smokers will die prematurely, losing on average about 10 years of life.10 Smoking kills more
people each year than the following preventable causes of death combined: [figures for England
except HIV which is for UK and traffic accidents for Great Britain]
• obesity (34,100)
• alcohol (6,669)
• road traffic accidents (1,850)
• illegal drugs (1,605)
• HIV infection (504)*

its from ASH www.ash.org.uk/

so the fact that it kills double the people obesity does, and over ten times the people that alcohol does, doesn't really help with the public image.

friday16 Tue 15-Oct-13 08:40:54

If I choose to eat ridiculous amounts or even drink too much it's not going to have an affect on those around me.

Yeah, because car accidents, fights in the street and domestic violence are not in any way correlated with excessive drinking. FFS.

I can trivially easily avoid smoking, at any level that "the occasional whiff in the street". And although it's a nasty smell, the actual health risk associated with that is essentially zero (there are a lot of reasons as to why the quoted increase in the risk lung cancer caused by cohabiting with a smoker should be treated with caution, but even at face value, it means that ten seconds' exposure in the street is risk-free).

It's a lot harder to avoid the risk of drink drivers killing me, whether I'm a pedestrian, a cyclist or driving myself. It's a lot harder to avoid the risk of being assaulted by someone who's drunk. Both of those can have instant, life changing effects from a single event, which walking past someone who's smoking simply doesn't.

Goldmandra Tue 15-Oct-13 08:45:02

It's a lot harder to avoid the risk of drink drivers killing me, whether I'm a pedestrian, a cyclist or driving myself. It's a lot harder to avoid the risk of being assaulted by someone who's drunk. Both of those can have instant, life changing effects from a single event, which walking past someone who's smoking simply doesn't.

Both of these scenarios are extremely rare whereas having your life devastated by the loss of a friend or family member through smoking related illness is ridiculously common.

friday16 Tue 15-Oct-13 08:56:15

Both of these scenarios are extremely rare whereas having your life devastated by the loss of a friend or family member through smoking related illness is ridiculously common.

People who are killed or injured by drunk drivers did little or nothing to bring on their own fate.

People who smoke themselves to death have only themselves to blame.

As a mother to a cystic fibrosis patient. I hate smoking with a passion.

My son has no choice about his lungs degenerating and he has no choice but to fight for each breath so it disgusts me that people with perfectly health lungs and a choice still choose to destroy them each time they light up.

angry

bigbrick Tue 15-Oct-13 08:58:22

What people do themselves on their own is their business but when it affects others who have not agreed to the secondary effects then it should not be allowed

Davsmum Tue 15-Oct-13 09:32:43

It isn't allowed - that's why there are bans everywhere!

Goldmandra Tue 15-Oct-13 09:53:42

*People who are killed or injured by drunk drivers did little or nothing to bring on their own fate.

People who smoke themselves to death have only themselves to blame.*

Their friends and family suffer just as much.

friday16 Tue 15-Oct-13 10:02:59

Their friends and family suffer just as much.

Yes, that absolutely right. A small child killed while walking home from school by a drunken driver is exactly the same for their family and friends as the death at seventy of a man who would have lived to be eighty had they not smoked. Of course. Completely the same.

If you have family and friends that smoke, they're going to die young. You can either get used to the idea, or you can try to get them to change. None of that's true for the effects of drink driving.

pianodoodle Tue 15-Oct-13 10:06:24

I think the best thing you can do to get a smoker to change is to be supportive and helpful the same way you would with anyone else who had an addiction/problem.

Quoting facts that everyone knows, resorting to "you smell" type comments don't help. It doesn't show actual concern it just shows that you know smoking is bad - and everyone knows that already!

DarkVelvetySilkyShiraz Tue 15-Oct-13 10:12:02

Its the smell Red.

The smell makes me feel sick.

My Parents used to smoke, and it gave me migranes as I got older, the only way to combat that was to smoke myself. confused.

I gave up about 7 years ago for my DH then the DC's ( who came after).
I still have the odd fag, I have had four this year, one on holiday and three at a funeral.

Its also where people smoke, we usually live in cramped cheek by jowl housing so if you live next to people who smoke outside regularly you probably cant open your own windows, and could be affected quite severely.

Then there is the health side of it. Smoking next to me, directly, immeditalty affects me. Drinking next to me does not.

HTH

DarkVelvetySilkyShiraz Tue 15-Oct-13 10:17:52

BTW on threads like this - the impact of smoke is always wittled down the odd waft of smoke as you walk past a smoker.

Not so if you live in flats, terraced housing or anywhere where your windows are right by where people smoke.

Thats loads more smoke than a little waft as you walk past someone.

Goldmandra Tue 15-Oct-13 10:22:40

* A small child killed while walking home from school by a drunken driver is exactly the same for their family and friends as the death at seventy of a man who would have lived to be eighty had they not smoked. Of course. Completely the same.*

So smoking only kills old people who are of less value to their family and ready to die anyway hmm

We should clearly accept the contribution smoking makes to cot death then.

mummybearah Tue 15-Oct-13 10:33:36

I agree with UriGHOULer.

Alcohol related crimes and even greedy people are villified in society.. all in different ways.

Boo hoo smokers.

Goldmandra Tue 15-Oct-13 10:43:11

The difference with alcohol is that you can drink in a normal responsible way without causing damage to others. Those who do cause damage, e.g. by drink driving are vilified bug time.

It is very hard to be a smoker without causing distress to others either by the effects of passive smoking or by causing them to lose a loved one earlier in their lives.

That inevitably means that smokers are criticised and shunned, perhaps not as much as drink drivers but, quite reasonably, far more than drinkers.

"There is no way of proving that second-hand smoke caused his cancer, it's very unlikely that it did, and non-smokers get lung cancer too."

I worked in palliative care and have had lung problems, my Mum has lung cancer, I attend her appointments with her.
I don't understand why even though they have given her one bout of radiation, she carries on smoking.

I wanted to point out that there are different types and ways that tumours grow and "lung/cancer consultants" can make statements as to why people develop cancer, so " Roy castle syndrome" doesn't exist, people do get cancer from passive smoking. Consultants can tell why tumours develop and how they will grow.

I live in an area which has the highest rate of lung disease (North West), we know why people suffer from whatever lung problems they develop and what could of been done to prevent it.

Thanks to the under developed nations taking up smoking, we have gained better knowledge, as it isn't a coinsidence that we are seeing lots of problems that never existed before, without the use of cars increasing. China, for example has a high rate if lung cancer in those working in the lace trade, because they breathe in fibres, but it appears differently to a smoker.

Lungs are only one aspect, my Mums vascular problems and her needing to use a wheelchair is through smoking.

I don't have a strong opinion, two of my DD's smoke, my middle one is desperate to stop, because it is a waste of money and she likes clothes.

I think the financial argument is irrelevant, if smokers wasn't buying fags then they would be spending it on other things, or perhaps doing sports/hobbies which take up NHS resources, when injuries occur.

My hate of smokers comes from my hate of litter. Most smokers I know don't see themselves as littering.

I used to use sunbirds a lot when I was younger, but if I was short of money, I didn't. I found it hard to understand how my friends, who lived on Income Support and were good parents in every other way, could justify spending money daily on something so non essential and all round damaging.

But that is my thoughts to people that I care about, I wouldn't have an opinion on people that I don't know.

Friday16 - you said "People who smoke themselves to death have only themselves to blame" - and I would absolutely agree with you on that. The same goes for people who over-eat themselves into fatal heart attacks or strokes, or people who drink themselves to death.

But in all these cases, there is collateral damage. I didn't want my dad to die at 70, due to Congestive Heart Failure, caused by his decades of smoking - I would rather he was still here to see his grandsons growing up.

The daft thing about this whole debate is that is is being presented as an either/or debate, when the truth is that yes, we need to tackle obesity, and excessive alcohol consumption, and smoking, and over-reliance on cars - because all of these do have a negative impact both on an individual's health, and on their families and wider society too.

Perhaps we feel most passionately about the thing we have seen have an impact in our own lives. I am passionately anti-smoking, because I grew up in a smoking household, spent all my childhood and teens kippering in my parents' smoke (including in the car, even though this made me car sick - which my mother flatly denied, when I got up the courage to tell her), and lost my father earlier than I should have done, due to the effects of smoking. I have also worked on both medical and surgical thoracic wards, and seen for myself the damage done by smoking to people's lungs.

So maybe that is why smoking seems most important to me. Perhaps if I had lived with a heavy drinker, or had seen a friend or relative hurt or killed by a drunk driver, or if I lived close to a pub and saw a lot of drunken misbehaviour, then drinking would be my particular bete noire.

Sunbeds, stupid auto correct.

Based on a lot of the arguements here, perhaps we should make tobacco illegal and legalise cocaine.

friday16 Tue 15-Oct-13 10:53:13

perhaps we should make tobacco illegal and legalise cocaine.

I'd legalise all drugs and sell them through chemists, at cost price. Stamps out the illegal drug trade at a stroke, reduces deaths due to contamination and poor hygiene, massively reduces channels for AIDS and hepatitis, stops pretty much all acquisitive crime driven by addiction (and if it doesn't, you just subsidise it until it does), means that people taking relatively (about as dangerous as alcohol and tobacco) safe cannabis and MDMA derivatives aren't pushed towards more addictive and/or dangerous drugs, removes the "I'm so dangerous outside the law" glamour. What's not to like? Less crime, fewer deaths, less illness.

Threalamandaclarke Tue 15-Oct-13 10:54:07

Apart from the obvious effects to others (passive smoking, risk of being burnt by a cigarette, house fires, the general stench of smoke on anyone who has smoked that day, which they are often oblivious to) just on a purely numbers basis smoking is the biggest cause of mortality and morbidity in comparison with all the other things you mention (overheating etc.)
The tobacco companies are to blame IMHO. It is a disgrace that ppl have been exposed to this addictive poison. And that the myth is perpetrated that it's sooooo hard to stop (kept going by the nicotine replacement product pushers among others).
Smoking is rubbish. It's a mug's game.

Redpipe Tue 15-Oct-13 10:54:27

I am not sure why people are trying to compare passive smoking to passive eating or passive drinking and using the comparison to say smoking is worse.

Smoking = passive smoke and possible health implications for an innocent party plus it stinks.
Excessive alcohol = possible abuse, vomit on the streets, possible drink driving deaths, assaults and all these can have an impact on innocent peoples lives.

Threalamandaclarke Tue 15-Oct-13 10:55:48

Over eating. Not over heating.

I'd do a whole lot more anti-smoking, anti-drugs, anti-alcohol education in school, and put more money into programmes aiming to help people come off cigarettes, drugs and drink.

And I would put lots of money into integrated public transport systems, that are affordable and accessible for everyone, to get some cars off the roads. And maybe if the roads were emptier, more people would cycle to work/shops/school/wherever.

I'd bring back cookery as a school subject, so every child leaves school able to follow a basic recipe, knows what the main cookery terms mean, and can put together a healthy (and economical) meal plan.

Basically, Mumsnet needs to put together a political party, and we should stand at the next election in every constituency, win by a landslide and sort this country out once and for all. I think we could do it!

Redpipe Tue 15-Oct-13 10:59:02

Friday16

I like your thinking

Redpipe Tue 15-Oct-13 11:00:42

SDTG

grin

MurderOfBanshees Tue 15-Oct-13 11:10:05

You're not comparing like with like though when you talk about excessive drinking.

Someone having one cigarette will affect others nearby.
Someone having one drink is unlikely to affect others nearby.

Redpipe Tue 15-Oct-13 11:42:08

Murderofbanshees
*Someone having one cigarette will affect others nearby.
Someone having one drink is unlikely to affect others nearby.*

Whilst I agree with what you have written you have actually highlighted my point, they can't be compared like for like.

At the weekend many of our high streets are full of people having not had one drink but a skin full. Just this Sunday I tried to go to the cash point and there was a pile of vomit immediately in front of it and broken beer bottles around the floor.

Alcohol abuse in this country is rife and many people think it's hilarious.
I just don't understand why people get so upset about tobacco but not alcohol.

YouAreMyFavouriteWasteOfTime Tue 15-Oct-13 12:04:13

vomit immediately in front of it and broken beer bottles around the floor.

so how often have you had to wash your clothes/hair due to other people's drinking?

madhairday Tue 15-Oct-13 12:16:02

friday, you seem to deny that smoking can have any negative effect on passers by apart from a nasty whiff. Are you not reading posts by people like Titsalina and me who say how much effect it can have - an immediate and lasting one which could be every bit as fatal and devastating as being hit by a drunk driver?

Titsalina said 'My son has no choice about his lungs degenerating and he has no choice but to fight for each breath so it disgusts me that people with perfectly health lungs and a choice still choose to destroy them each time they light up.' - exactly how I feel. I just don't get why people would put themselves through this deliberately. I live with it day by day, every day for the rest of my life, through no fault of my own. Why on earth people would even risk it just dumbfounds me. They have no idea what they could be getting into sad

WinkyWinkola Tue 15-Oct-13 12:16:30

People DO get upset about the mental behaviour of drunk people though.

moanalot Tue 15-Oct-13 12:24:39

I don't smoke myself but am amazed at the seriously health conscious types who obviously don't smoke and probably hate anyone who does, but see no harm in jogging and breathing in all the dangerous carbon monoxide fumes from all the passing cars. Why can't they see that this is far worse than standing next to a smoker.

friday16 Tue 15-Oct-13 12:27:05

Huh? Titsalina is saying that they get upset at people ruining their good lungs, because her son has a lung condition. How is getting upset "every bit as fatal" as being killed?

AndysMildAdventures Tue 15-Oct-13 12:31:10

redpipe, do you not see even in your own post that one reason people dislike smokers and smoking more is the fact that the effects of alcohol (the vomit and bottles you mention) only bother people in the extreme while smoking is annoying even at the basic level? One drink won't make a person vomit and annoy people. One cigarette will invade peoples' space and annoy them. Alcohol is annoying yes but people have to have more of it to become irritating and affect peoples lives whereas smokers only need to light up one cigarette.

friday16 Tue 15-Oct-13 12:34:04

but see no harm in jogging and breathing in all the dangerous carbon monoxide fumes from all the passing cars.

What? About 15ppm? Of all the things to worry about in car pollution, CO is pretty low down the list. Dangerous? You know the bad old days when you could shut yourself in the garage with a running car and kill yourself? These days the car will probably stop running before you even get a headache. I worry about particulates from older diesel engines, but the gaseous emissions from modern engines are pretty much just water and carbon dioxide.

MurderOfBanshees Tue 15-Oct-13 12:39:59

I can't speak for others, but excessive drinking does bother me.

Quite capable of being bothered by more than one thing. It's not an either or thing.

But I'm not annoyed by drinking in general, because in general it doesn't affect others.

pianodoodle Tue 15-Oct-13 12:40:24

I think it's just all getting a bit out of hand now with people still wanting to have something to complain about.

I don't know anyone in RL who would get upset at walking past someone smoking in the street it just seems a bit much!

jammiedonut Tue 15-Oct-13 12:47:44

Where I live smoking, binge drinking and over eating are all vilified. I hate walking down the high street having to dodge the litter and detritus that follows a Friday and saturday night 'out on the town'm be it broken bottles, takeaway wrappers or cigarette butts. Watching/ hearing someone else eat sets my teeth on edge, as does walking through smoke to get into hospital, shopping centres and my own home (my neighbour likes to smoke outside, right next to my front door grrr). It's all unsociable and mildly annoying to me for the reasons above, and a lot of my friends would agree. It's up to the individual however to spend their money on what they like, I wouldn't dream off trying to dictate what others should and shouldn't do.

jammiedonut Tue 15-Oct-13 12:49:42

pianodoodle I can't stand it, the smell, even the faintest whiff brings the memory of morning sickness screaming back! I wouldn't ever tell someone to stop because of that though, if they can't smoke on the street where can they?!

myrubberduck Tue 15-Oct-13 12:51:34

I blame a creeping health fascism for the assumption that it is acceptable to vilify people for making poor health choices but wonder where will it stop???

First they came for the fags, then they came for the booze, then they came for the chocolate biscuits....

FWIW I don't think that the majority of non smokers do actually 'vilify' smokers although most non smokers do dislike it; there will always be people who are prepared to screech loudly about others making choices (and to continue to smoke is a choice, however addictive smoking can be) about which they disapprove, but IMO they are a minority, just a very vocal one.

Live and let live people smile

blahblahblah2014 Tue 15-Oct-13 12:54:35

100% of non-smokers die - FACT

I just wish smokers would actually smoke more instead of just dangling their cigarettes around at kids face level.

"I don't smoke myself but am amazed at the seriously health conscious types who obviously don't smoke and probably hate anyone who does, but see no harm in jogging and breathing in all the dangerous carbon monoxide fumes from all the passing cars. Why can't they see that this is far worse than standing next to a smoker."

Why the assumptions about what people who try to look after themselves, think?

but, No it isn't, if comparing like for like, otherwise anyone working or living in high traffic areas would be dying of disease en- masse.

Consultants don't just wake up and come up with their knowledge, there is massive amounts if research ongoing which includes cross cultural studies.

There isn't a point to staring smoking. We learn to comfort eat during childhood, most obese people have issues. Fat people are not because truly greedy, I more since I have gone vegan again. Being tipsy (or drunk) is fun, so are some drugs. We need transport. Smoking is nonsensical, it is an addiction, as opposed to being able to drink occasionally.

YouAreMyFavouriteWasteOfTime Tue 15-Oct-13 13:05:54

when we were staying at DFIL & DSMIL house, I went for a run to escape the smoke. lovely run. beautiful countryside.

got back, got in the shower..... got out of shower clean and refreshed, picked up towel......

....that smelt of cigarette smoke!

(I have a nose like a dog. cigarette smoke is a strong and irritating smell.)

elskovs Tue 15-Oct-13 13:11:00

Im not sure if smoking is seen as worse than over-eating. My husband writes off anyone at interview who is clearly overweight OR smells of smoke. He says both show lack of self control.

Alcohol is much more socially accepted, maybe because so few people abuse it. Everyone who smokes is an addict and risking disease.

I don't think it should be banned though.

elskovs Tue 15-Oct-13 13:11:38

I don't mind the smell of smoke actually, Im not a smoker.

redpipe Tue 15-Oct-13 13:13:33

"so how often have you had to wash your clothes/hair due to other people's drinking?"

Yet again you are trying to compare like for like. For me both having to wash my hair or having to tread around vomit at a cash point are both vile.

This is exactly my point! Why does washing your hair trump treading round vomit?

redpipe Tue 15-Oct-13 13:20:17

AndysMildAdventures

Does it really matter whether it's one fag compared to lots of alcohol. Both are anti social. I don't see swathes of moderate drinkers out on the weekend in the centre of towns. I occasionally see moderate drinking in a restaurant or bar but there aren't any smokers in there any more.

friday16 Tue 15-Oct-13 13:29:18

don't see swathes of moderate drinkers out on the weekend in the centre of towns.

What? You mean that if I go to Pizza Express and drink a bottle of beer with a pizza I don't exist...?

AndysMildAdventures Tue 15-Oct-13 13:35:03

Yes, redpipe it does. Its an explanation as to why smoking is more disliked in general. A smoker is annoying and invasive whether they smoke one cigarette next to you or twenty. A drinker becomes annoying and invasive when they have had many drinks and they become drunk. Someone sitting next to me having one drink doesn't affect me, someone sitting next to me having one cigarette does.

JaquelineHyde Tue 15-Oct-13 14:26:07

elskovs your husband is clearly a cunt and I feel sorry for anyone he employs!

Because other people vilify it. As long as you're in a crowd of people saying the same thing you must be right and good. It doesn't really matter if you are yelling at people for smoking or for supporting the wrong party or football team. As long as you join a crowd and shout when they do.

There are of course serious downsides to smoking, but the vehemence is out of proportion to the effect it can have on a casual passerby and no one wants to ban people from harming themselves or skiing would be illegal.

Some posters ask "but you don't get so hot about people drinking" and they get flamed because... well you can't shout about that. Everyone has friends or relatives who drink so it just can't be done.

My town center is off limits at night time because of the violent drunks. In the morning someone has to clear up the broken glass and vomit, but hey that's just being sociable and drink never hurt anyone right?

If your best friend regularly gets in the car after a drink you can't say anything can you - that would be rude. If he ploughs into a bus stop full of people that's just bad luck. But "oh god I saw a smoker in the park yesterday! he was 50 ft away, but I wanted to kill him". The hostility is just over the top.

The media don't help because when they print research results they don't explain them properly. When you see that "millions died of smoking" that won't be what the researchers said. "contributed to" would be more accurate. Those millions are the same people who died of obesity and the same people who died from heart disease, liver disease and so on. Because all of those things contributed to them dying earlier than they might have otherwise

After a bit people start making stuff up about it. Like the bogeyman gains more teeth and claws with the retelling.

There are people on MN who believe you can catch cancer because someone who visits you is married to someone who sometimes smokes and it gets passed to you on their clothes.

One poster had a sealed package delivered in a van in which someone had smoked when it was not being used for deliveries and she had to destroy the items in the package in case it infected her family.

It's not even helpful. Tell kids it makes them smell bad - which is true. Tell them it makes them out of breath walking up stairs - which is true. Tell them it greatly increases their chances of getting serious and terminal illnesses - which is true. Even tell them that they won't be very good at sex if they get out of breath all the time, but don't snatch them away from the road because a truck went by with a smoker in it. if they see people being irrational about it then they will dismiss all the warnings as lies and propaganda.

I wouldn't be surprised if most smokers now were the old people who started back when the same mob said that non-smokers were anti-social/miserable gits. It's not easy to stop once addicted.

MurderOfBanshees Tue 15-Oct-13 15:50:13

"But "oh god I saw a smoker in the park yesterday! he was 50 ft away, but I wanted to kill him". The hostility is just over the top."

Have you ever actually heard anyone say that?

Goldmandra Tue 15-Oct-13 17:01:52

*My town center is off limits at night time because of the violent drunks. In the morning someone has to clear up the broken glass and vomit, but hey that's just being sociable and drink never hurt anyone right?

If your best friend regularly gets in the car after a drink you can't say anything can you - that would be rude. If he ploughs into a bus stop full of people that's just bad luck. But "oh god I saw a smoker in the park yesterday! he was 50 ft away, but I wanted to kill him". The hostility is just over the top.*

What utter rubbish!

People who behave like that are just as harshly criticised as smokers, if not more so. They are also selfish and irresponsible.

One poster had a sealed package delivered in a van in which someone had smoked when it was not being used for deliveries and she had to destroy the items in the package in case it infected her family.

Clearly that's representative of people who don't like smoking hmm

Nobody on this thread has said that being within a few yards of a cigarette kills you or that drinking doesn't cause problems. The fact is that there are many more smokers than there are binge drinkers and drink drivers there is plenty of evidence that passive smoking affects the health of others, even now smoking indoors in public places is outlawed.

redpipe Tue 15-Oct-13 21:46:27

But people seem to think that breathing a tiny bit of smoke will cause lung cancer but people drinking one beer in pizza express is representative of alcohol use in this country hmm

Goldmandra Tue 15-Oct-13 21:59:40

But people seem to think that breathing a tiny bit of smoke will cause lung cancer

Who thinks that?

I have to confess that, at this time of year, a tiny bit of smoke does do me a degree of harm. I walked past a guy smoking outside a hospital today and the lungful I got set off a massive coughing fit. That doesn't help me feel well disposed towards smokers at all but I don't expect to get cancer from it.

I wonder what the average alcohol consumption is per person in this country. I wouldn't be surprised if it were one beer with a meal. There are plenty of idiots to fill the town centres on weekend nights but there are an awful lot more people at home not drunk when that's happening.

Beastofburden Tue 15-Oct-13 22:00:57

I don't think anyone thinks breathing a tiny bit of smoke causes cancer. They think it stinks.

Excessive boozing is disgusting and dangerous. I think it is vilified as much as smoking is.

My goodness there are some weird attitudes on here.

*If your best friend regularly gets in the car after a drink you can't say anything can you - that would be rude. If he ploughs into a bus stop full of people that's just bad luck. But "oh god I saw a smoker in the park yesterday! he was 50 ft away, but I wanted to kill him". The hostility is just over the top.*

This one takes the biscuit. Nobody except the very stupid, thinks it is bad luck if a drunk driver ploughs into a bus stop of people. Drink driving and causing death whilst under the influence are pretty serious offences. I wouldn't worry about being rude if somebody I knew tried to drive whilst drunk - it isn't rude to try and stop such as offence being committed and if the 'friend' took offence, they aren't much of a friend are they? You would have to be pretty pathetic to take that approach. Most likely the drunk driver would end up in prison and he would most certainly by vilified and rightly so. Smokers don't go to prison for smoking, even in a public place.

Nobody thinks binge drinkers are hilarious either do they? Nobody I have met certainly - may those who actually do it think it is funny but they aren't most people surely?

The point for me is that there is nothing good about smoking. It serves no useful purpose and even in moderation one cigarette is one cigarette too many. You have to eat, you can't avoid it so it is hard for a binge eater to give up binging (and of course not all of them are overweight and costing the NHS a fortune too). Fat people get vilified all the time. Social drinkers who drink in moderation and don't get howling drunk don't cause a problem either. A little drink in moderation is supposed to be good for you. That is never the case for smoking. Smoking affects people close to them because of the smell and the smoke. It isn't necessarily going to cause them harm in the short term or as a one off but it is anti social in any situation.

And just for the record, smoking does so much more damage than just lung disease and cancers. My father has Alzheimers and is registered partially blind both of which are directly linked to smoking. He could have got treatment for his eyesight but he didn't because he wasn't prepared to give up smoking. The effects of smoking are huge.

WinkyWinkola Tue 15-Oct-13 23:20:38

I couldn't care less what others think of smoking.

I only care about what the scientific proof says and what the HUGE costs are to the individual, to families, the NHS, to the tax payer etc.

Goldmandra Tue 15-Oct-13 23:29:14

I guess it's hard to accept that a habit you've had for years and which has been integrated into all aspects of your daily life, suddenly becomes socially less acceptable and forbidden in some of the places you feel you need it most.

That change, however, is progress and just as hitting children, drink driving and exploiting women have become less prolific as they have become less socially acceptable, this move should reduce the numbers of smokers and therefore the massive costs to society.

IHaveA Tue 15-Oct-13 23:37:11

Smoking = bad idea
Drinking to excess = bad idea
Eating to excess = bad idea
Drugs = bad idea

I don't do any of these things and I never have. i will polish my halo grin I understand there are sometimes other factors to consider but generally I disapprove of all of these things. I owe it to my family and myself to stay healthy and I choose not to do any of these things.

I find it soooo hard to understand why anyone would smoke and, even though I know that it can be extremely hard to stop, I don't understand why people continue to smoke. It is so expensive! and it stinks, really, really stinks

trixymalixy Tue 15-Oct-13 23:37:45

What a ridiculous post backonlybriefly

I would rip shreds off anyone I knew who drove drunk, I would have no problem with being extremely rude and hostile to them and report them to the police as well.

Fabsmum Tue 15-Oct-13 23:47:08

I'm amazed smoking is as socially acceptable as it is, given how smokers on very low incomes will often be depriving their children of decent food, holidays and entertainment in order to fund a drug habit costing maybe £20 or £30 a week.

The OP is insisting that nobody has any problem with drinking, over eating and addiction to other drugs.

I worry about ALL of these things. I think most of us do.

cory Wed 16-Oct-13 08:11:06

My quality of life has improved out of all recognition since smoking became socially unacceptable. I can attend parties, spend a whole day at work and travel on public transport without becoming ill.

Dh hasn't had an asthma attack in years: in fact, the "cure" of his asthma coincided exactly with the ban on smoking in public places.

If the price that has to be paid for this is that smokers feel judged, then I'm afraid that doesn't worry me all that much. Feeling judged is not as bad as watching someone you love unable to breathe- really, it's not.

wordfactory Wed 16-Oct-13 08:24:38

Breathing in a tiny bit of smoke won't cause cancer, but it can trigger an asthma attack!

struggling100 Wed 16-Oct-13 08:44:45

While I disagree with the OP on smoking, I read the original question as: why vilify certain types of unhealthy behaviour as irresponsible (smoking), and not others (obesity)?

Now I appreciate that social pressure (aka vilification) has a role to play in getting us all to make healthier choices. The government is pouring lots of money into 'nudge' initiatives to get us to make healthier choices at the moment. It has the advantage of being cheap. But I worry that it's just a sticking plaster that avoids deeper changes that are needed.

For instance, I am not sure that vilifying people who make bad food choices is as effective as solving the underlying circumstances that are contributing to those choices. Like poverty (or, at the opposite end of the social spectrum, time poverty). Or the work done by the food industry to create magical thinking around food ('this chocolate bar can make you happy, sexy, bright-eyed and fulfilled').

To those who say 'it's up to the individual to be strong', I say this: whenever there is a public holiday, and especially at Christmas, I am always surprised at the number of people I see out jogging. The moment people have time to do so, many do start to look after themselves. But if we fill people's working lives with so much stress and pressure that they can barely get through the day, then their capacity to live healthy lives is reduced, and they are more likely to reach for high fat, high sugar, high salt foods rather than healthier options. So I would argue that we need structural change - like getting workplaces and working hours to be healthier and more family-friendly, has to be a huge part of the battle.

StepAwayFromTheEcclesCakes Wed 16-Oct-13 10:18:41

errmm have you not seen all the press / Tv stuff about alcohol and drunks on the streets? all the stigma about drug users? all are 'villified' but smoking is the one that has the greatest affect on people who choose not to smoke or who live with a smoker.

Tryharder Wed 16-Oct-13 10:38:11

Ah yes, another fat hatred thread disguised as 'concern' for fat people's health or effects on NHS spending.

What about people who do dangerous sports? Or cyclists and other road users? It's their fault if they have an an accident after all and yet still use the NHS.

I don't think smokers are vilified other than being forced to smoke outside which the majority of smokers are quite happy to do. People are naive if they think that the Government wants people to stop smoking. Smoking is a huge source of revenue in this country.

And yet, my God, dare to be a stone overweight and according to MN, you are apparently about 5 minutes away from dropping dead of a heart attack and are personally responsible for NHS financial problems.

GruffBillyGoat Wed 16-Oct-13 11:26:18

Why is it ok to tell a smoker that they stink, but not fat people or those with poor hygiene? It's rude, I fucking hate the smell of perfume, but I don't tell anyone wearing it how offensive they smell.

tiggytape Wed 16-Oct-13 11:28:50

It isn't O.K tell someone they stink
But if they are making you stink then that's different

You say you don't moan at people who wear perfume
Presumably though, if they were spraying the stuff everywhere and loads of it landed on your skin and clothes you would then complain?

struggling100 Wed 16-Oct-13 11:32:19

I don't think this is a 'fat hatred' thread, and I do think we need a mature debate about how much responsibility individuals bear for their health problems. Not least because in some very high level meetings, some very powerful people are starting seriously to raise the idea that individuals should be made to contribute financially to healthcare for conditions that are due to lifestyle choices. So it's important that there is a wider discussion in society about individual/collective responsibilities for health, because some difficult decisions about how we fund the health system are around the corner.

(For the record, I fall into the camp of being extremely against individuals contributing financially in this way, partly because I believe that the determinants of ill health to a great extent structural, not individual).

DontMentionThePrunes Wed 16-Oct-13 11:32:30

I don't go around telling people they stink of cigarette smoke.
But...I think it's important that smokers are not allowed to minimise this. It is rank. If you were standing in front of me, emanating faggy smells, I wouldn't say anything, but I feel quite comfortable telling 'smokers' as a group that the smell is vile.

Minifingers Wed 16-Oct-13 11:35:04

Some commentary on the impact of a ban on smoking in public places:

"In April, 2010 the Canadian Medical Association Journal published a study evaluating the effects of a 10-year, three-stage smoke-free regulatory programme in Toronto. The study found that during the implementation of a restaurant smoke-free ordinance, hospital admissions for cardiovascular conditions declined by 39%, and admissions for respiratory conditions declined by 33%. No significant reductions in hospital admissions occurred in other cities which did not have smoke-free ordinances"

Sadly, it's still legal to smoke all over your family in your own home or in your car. sad

11000 people in the UK still die from passive smoking every year.

WinkyWinkola Wed 16-Oct-13 11:36:04

My HR director at my last job had to tell a colleague he had a body odour issue and could he attend to it.

She also said client facing staff could not go stinking of fags.

You can tell people they stink in some circs!

Minifingers Wed 16-Oct-13 11:41:40

Can I add - I don't blame smokers.

They are victims of addiction.

Nobody can exercise a truly free choice to smoke - the nature of addiction makes that impossible.

The only reason people smoke (who smoke regularly) is because they're addicted to it. Those people who say 'but I enjoy it' and 'it relaxes me' - yes of course it does. Because if you create an itch, then scratching that itch is going to make it feel better, and give you feelings of relief. And if you repeat that action thousands and thousands of times at moments of tension throughout the day you will soon come to associate the sensation of relaxation and relief in the face of stress, with having a fag.

I think the government should do everything it can to encourage smokers to release themselves from their addiction. The smoking ban and making cigs obscenely expensive is a good start.

friday16 Wed 16-Oct-13 12:11:27

Nobody can exercise a truly free choice to smoke - the nature of addiction makes that impossible.

They made a free choice to start. Here's a good idea for avoiding becoming addicted to something: don't start taking it.

DontMentionThePrunes Wed 16-Oct-13 12:20:50

I know smokers who love the picture of themselves as 'victims' and actually that line of rhetoric plays right into their hands. They don't consider themselves responsible and it reinforces how very very hard it is to give up. So they carry on and woe is me etc.

I don't think it's enormously useful. I'm concerned that we are supposed to show tolerance for this and help people feel better about themselves. Why? My father had throat cancer, consultant said he was 90% certain it was due to passive smoking (both parents then two wives smoked around him, he never smoked except passively). I'm not interested in whether or not the smokers are victims. They know this sort of thing happens, they know they are responsible to whatever degree, but people tell them it's all ok because they are addicted. It's not good enough.

Mimishimi Wed 16-Oct-13 12:32:14

I do think the other habits/NHS burdens you mentioned are equally vilified. My maternal grandmother died of lung cancer due to her smoking (four cigarettes a day). She was only 62. She had about eight months to live after they discovered the cancer. When I was a child, I thought she looked incredibly glamorous with her long ebony cigarette holder. Her death when I was 11 made me realise the not so glamorous health effects. She was so beautiful with a good business and it's such a waste.sad

Mimishimi Wed 16-Oct-13 12:35:52

Forgot to add that she refused to cook with microwaves as she was convinced that they cause cancer but she still smoked! Sadly, I think she thought that only smoking four cigarettes a day instead of a whole pack wouldn't have any harmful effects.

NotYoMomma Wed 16-Oct-13 12:36:50

victims?

victims? eyeroll

I am a victim of nailbiting. it is terrible, woe is me I can do nothing about it. where does it end honestly

and you do stink. I may not be hugely polite to tell you to your face, but you do!!!

Minifingers Wed 16-Oct-13 15:56:37

"They made a free choice to start. Here's a good idea for avoiding becoming addicted to something: don't start taking it."

Apparently in Wales the average age people start smoking is 12. sad

I don't know what it is for the rest of the UK but I don't imagine it will be radically different.

Most people start smoking when they're young and stoopid. By the time they've grown up and realised what a fucking awful habit it is they're well and truly hooked. Many will spend the rest of their lives trying to rationalise their addiction, before about half of them go on to die from smoking related illnesses.

Minifingers Wed 16-Oct-13 16:00:57

"victims? eyeroll"

Apparently 70% of smokers want to stop, and each year about half will try to quit. Only a tiny minority will succeed, despite knowing the habit is putting their lives at risk.

None of the people I know who smoke are what I'd describe as weak willed. I am weak willed on the other hand, and yet I managed to kick a 12 year 20 a day habit overnight. I don't know why I could do it but other people who I consider stronger and more determined than me haven't been able to stay quitted.

There really is more to defeating addiction than how strong your will is.

NotYoMomma Wed 16-Oct-13 16:06:51

I know its just the term victim is a bit ott

yes you are struggling with a terrible addiction (I have my own addictions - cake and coffee and coke) but I wouldnt say I am a victim.

its just such an ott turn of phrase imo.

if someone had mugged you for your cigs then you would be a victim. it just feeds into the woe is me I am so vilified and can't help it mindset

Minifingers Wed 16-Oct-13 18:13:44

"yes you are struggling with a terrible addiction (I have my own addictions - cake and coffee and coke) but I wouldnt say I am a victim.

its just such an ott turn of phrase imo".

If you are addicted to a drug which has a 50% likelihood of killing you, you want to give up and find yourself unable to, you are a victim. And so are your family.

cory Wed 16-Oct-13 18:17:06

I have no problem with the term "victim" and I am sure it is a terrible addiction

but that doesn't mean smokers have the right to force their drug onto innocent bystanders/workmates/family members

an alcoholic is also a victim of addiction

but nobody would feel that excused him force feeding alcohol to other people nor would anybody feel that complaining about anti-social behaviour caused by alcohol addiction was a case of unjust vilification of drinkers

exposing other people to smoke is anti-social

Minifingers Wed 16-Oct-13 18:41:15

I agree Cory.

I'd like to see a law making smoking indoors around under 18's and vulnerable people illegal.

In any enclosed space containing children actually (so cars too).

NotYoMomma Wed 16-Oct-13 20:03:50

I just find people use the term to be half hearted about quitting and try to excuse the awfulness of it because they are a victim.

I used to work in a tabacco shop and just. does it have a 50% of killing you? confused

no idea.

friday16 Wed 16-Oct-13 20:33:06

I'd like to see a law making smoking indoors around under 18's and vulnerable people illegal.

And you'd enforce that how, roughly? With what sanctions? How are you going to define "around"?

NotYoMomma Wed 16-Oct-13 20:38:15

there should be smoking areas and anyone smoking elsewhere should be open to fines

they have smoking stands in Tokyo shrug

let them all stink together

Minifingers has it about right. I was 13 when I started smoking. Stupid, yes, but also very young. The cravings coming off fags are in no way comparable to giving up coffee or cake. I think a lot of how easy or difficult you find it is down to whether you have an addictive personality, or maybe just a particular susceptibility to nicotine.

I've never ever heard anyone 'excusing' smokers because it's an addiction though. It's really shit to go through life knowing you're a pariah, trying not to breathe around people, knowing you stink and are a walking health risk to others, and that your habit is costing a fortune and has a 50% chance of killing you ... but still be unable to stop.

Really though, I've just popped onto this thread to let any lurking smokers know there is hope! After 30 years on the fags (barring 2 pregnancies), and trying just about every stop smoking method invented, I've switched to an e-cig and have gone 2 weeks now without smoking. If anybody feels like taking the plunge, there's a thread here with lots of support and advice.

Fluffyears Wed 16-Oct-13 22:05:01

I grew up with chain smoking parents and was teased by peers 'ew you REEK of smoke!'' It had an effect on me and I now have paranoia over smelling. I shower twice a day and carry 2 deodorants everywhere convinced I still smell. I am extremely anti-smoking and find it sad seeing those people outside like slaves to their addiction.

I find most sm

Fluffyears Wed 16-Oct-13 22:08:13

Aargh posted too soon.

I find most smokers quite selfish, they walk down the street wafting their stinky smoke behind them into other people's faces. Last week in a queue for the cash machine the guy in front of me was merrily puffing away not caring that he was affecting everyone in that queue. Your lungs, your choice, my choice is not to spend a fortune on something that will kill me x

Minifingers Wed 16-Oct-13 22:28:47

Pleased for you Plenty! :-)

WinkyWinkola Thu 17-Oct-13 00:51:31

Plenty, well done. That's really brilliant news. You should be really proud of yourself.

Tobacco companies spend ££££ on making their products as addictive as possible.

Give them the finger and spend that wasted fag money on something that makes you truly happy.

WinkyWinkola Thu 17-Oct-13 00:55:12

And fwiw, I really think cigarette addiction is a pretty bad addiction. There are so many chemicals in a cigarette that are introduced by the manufacturers to create and maintain addiction.

But I reckon if I can kick my devoted fag habit, anyone can.

I personally can't understand why there isn't more outrage about this foul product that kills and has zero benefit for anyone apart from the shareholders of BAT and Mr. Ken Clarke.

friday16 Thu 17-Oct-13 07:23:20

this foul product that kills and has zero benefit for anyone apart from the shareholders of BAT and Mr. Ken Clarke.

BAT employ quite a lot of people. I suspect they prefer it to unemployment.

YouAreMyFavouriteWasteOfTime Thu 17-Oct-13 07:32:45

but surely if people did not smoke, they would spent the money on something else?

creating different jobs.

TiredDog Thu 17-Oct-13 07:42:56

I don't personally care if someone smokes tbh as long as they don't do it around me. Smoking laws have been brilliant.

I spent some time yesterday chatting to a patient who has just been diagnosed with lung cancer. He is newly retired and planning to use his early retirement to spend time with his grandchildren, garden, travel and enjoy himself. He told me all of this whilst I waited for a suitable opportunity to discuss the results of his recent tests... He announced that the problem which had caused him to have these tests had made him seriously consider his health and he'd given up smoking the same day of the test. Too late sadly. I listened to all this, knowing what I had to tell him. So on that very sad and uncomfortable level I was wailing internally at the waste of life caused by his smoking. Lovely bloke, positive outlook and looking forward to his future until I crushed all of that. That doesn't make me view smoking so tolerantly.

Over eating. YANBU
Alcohol. YANBU

These are the new lifestyle choices that will affect people's health.

However everyone has a choice and no one can claim they don't know the outcome so I don't judge. I do however wish people would make their personal choice but not condemn their children to a similar lifestyle

People who smoke around children...yes I judge you. Selfish and harmful

TheGhostofAmandaClarke Thu 17-Oct-13 09:34:58

I smoked for years.
Then I read Allen Carr's "Easyway to stop smoking" and quit.
Five years ago. It was the (secondony to having my DCs) the best thing I ever did.
The withdrawal was minimal. I am slimmer now than I was then, I am obviously much healthier.
At the centre of his book, for me, we're these truths:
1. Smoking is nothing more nor less than a way to feed a nicotine addiction.
2. Smoking does absolutely nothing for you in terms of confidence, stress relief or concentration.
3. It's actually piss easy to stop smoking.

I am pretty evangelical about it. I am shocked that I spent so many years poisoning my body and literally burning money.

WinkyWinkola Thu 17-Oct-13 12:56:16

Friday16, so we should continue to manufacture and peddle this stuff because it creates jobs?

Oh okay then. I guess it keeps the nurses and doctors busy too, treating lung cancer, emphysema etc.

And the revenues + employment created by spin off tobacco substitute products.

Everyone's a winner.

I have now seen the light and think everyone should be made to smoke in that case. hmm

MyCoilPicksUpGaydar Sun 20-Oct-13 21:16:56

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MyCoilPicksUpGaydar Sun 20-Oct-13 21:17:38

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

WinkyWinkola Sun 20-Oct-13 22:29:33

Facts are high horses?

What total crap.

Tiredmumno1 Sun 20-Oct-13 23:05:15

mycoil I just wondered if you had read this thread

Just in case it was of any help to you, although you may have tried ideas like this before, so just ignore me if you don't think it could help. It seems to have helped lots of others including my DH, just a little idea for you smile

MyCoilPicksUpGaydar Mon 21-Oct-13 00:11:59

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MyCoilPicksUpGaydar Mon 21-Oct-13 00:18:54

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

bigbrick Mon 21-Oct-13 00:18:59

MyCoil you are keeping the smoke away from others & I wish everyone could be as thoughtful as you in that respect. You will stop when the time is right for you.

WinkyWinkola Mon 21-Oct-13 06:50:15

I have every sympathy for someone who has suffered the way you describe.

But the post was about why smoking is vilified. That is what I and most people are responding to.

Tiredmumno1 Mon 21-Oct-13 10:09:42

well done for trying though mycoil, and as bigbrick says you will do it when you are ready smile . I certainly am not judging people can live their lives as they please, nowt to do with anyone else.

WinkyWinkola Mon 21-Oct-13 10:11:16

Unless they affect other people's quality of life that is.

Tiredmumno1 Mon 21-Oct-13 11:29:46

Obviously.

TheGhostofAmandaClarke Mon 21-Oct-13 12:09:40

mycoil I am certainly not judging you. I save my rage for the tobacco companies peddling their shit.

But on the subject of smoking and quitting I can honestly say that there is almost no difference between stopping now and stopping when the "time is right".

It's a mistake to think that cigarettes offer any kind of help or relief from the stress you're going through. And the nicotine replacement manufacturers and the makers of e cigarettes are of course very happy to perpetuate the myth that nicotine is really hard to give up. It's not. It's a bit niggly at first, resisting a few days worth of cravings.
Most smokers go all night without a cigarette, many last a whole day at work dealing with challenging situations without having a cigarette. It's a myth that smoking offers any kind of relaxation or stress relief.
The strength required to stop smoking is minimal. Certainly nothing in comparison with the strength you've had to muster.
So.if and when you want to stop. Read that book and stop. It won't hurt a bit. I promise.
Or don't.

<steps off soapbox>

Allen Carr's book didn't work for me. The first time I read it I managed to stop smoking for about a month, then I had 'just one' on an evening out and was back smoking as normal within a week. I re-read the book but didn't last out a day without a fag. Everybody was raving about his method though so I thought it must be me, so I forked out to go to one of his sessions. I lasted two miserable days after that. I don't know if they still do, but back then if you went to the session and didn't manage to stop smoking you could go back for a follow-up session for free, so I did that. There were people there who were back for the seventh or eighth time and still hadn't managed to stop.

I'm really pleased it worked for you, TheGhost, but I think it's important to acknowledge that no single method will work for everybody - and I'd say the same about ecigs too.

TheGhostofAmandaClarke Mon 21-Oct-13 13:15:18

That's a good point that one method doesn't work for everyone.
But there are undeniable truths in his book.
It's defninitely worth a read IMHO.
His instruction is to about never, never, ever partaking of nicotine in any form because of course, if you do, then you're right back off the wagon and on the fag bus. I didn't follow that properly after reading the first book. blush
Then I read the second book and didn't touch it after that.the second book really worked for me.

Yes, definitely worth a try, the book has a fairly high success rate, IIRC.

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