to think this is very disruptive??

(972 Posts)

MNHQ have commented on this thread.

macdoodle Sun 13-Oct-13 15:52:21

I probably am being unreasonable and am prepared to hear it.
My DD1 has just started secondary school, she is in the "more able class" (this is what its called by the school hmm).
In this class, of about 20 odd, there is a boy with SN. He has an assistant for every lesson, and from what my DD tells me I guess he must have some form of autism.
But every single day, she is coming home with stories of what "X" has done. Thinks like having tantrum, which takes 20mins to calm down disrupting the lesson, shouting at the teacher, grabbing or hitting another child (and once a teacher), throwing all his books and stuff on the floor (numerous occasions), storming out of lessons etc etc.
Now the kids all seem to think this is hysterical (and great fun that almost every lesson is disrupted by "X"), but every day I am a bit hmm, it just sounds very disruptive, and DD is starting to sound more annoyed than thinking its funny.
She does however say that is is clearly very bright indeed.
I know he has just as much right to be taught, but at the cost of disrupting a whole class of children? AIBU?? I can't quite decide TBH, and so far it doesnt appear to be affecting DD1's abilities, but we are only a term in.

coldwinter Sun 13-Oct-13 15:56:34

YANBU This is very disruptive, especially for secondary school were they really should be knuckling down to work.

PeepingTomcat Sun 13-Oct-13 15:57:13

So you're basically saying he should be excluded from the class for having autism?

coldwinter Sun 13-Oct-13 15:58:32

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macdoodle Sun 13-Oct-13 16:01:40

Well I dont know peepingcat, if he didnt have SN (which I am supposing he must have), then clearly this kind of behaviour would not be tolerated at all.
On Friday he apparantly (though DD1 is not a liar, and no reason to, so am assuming its true), grabbed another boy on the collar and threw him on the floor.
DD1 says some helpers are better than others at controlling him, but sometimes half a lesson can be lost while he "plays up", or is taken out.
TBH I hear more about him than anything else.
There is actually a school for children with SN attached to this secondary school. Without knowing any details its hard to know what is appropriate, but surely my concern is for my DD1?

AlexaChelsea Sun 13-Oct-13 16:02:31

Teach your DD to work whilst ignoring disruption.


coldwinter shock DFO.

AlexaChelsea Sun 13-Oct-13 16:04:25

If he is the mainstream part of the school, then he has obviously been assessed by people more qualified than you and your DD as to his 'suitability' for your DD's class.

coldwinter Sun 13-Oct-13 16:04:36

The teacher presumably will be teaching the class? It is not simply a case of ignoring the disruption. It will be a case of getting less teaching.

macdoodle Sun 13-Oct-13 16:04:59

I have told her to ignore him, and clearly that is what they are all trying to do. Poor boy has no friends either sad
But sometimes both carer and teacher are engaged in calming him down or removing him (as he often wont go). So they are not being taught.
She is a bright, able, very sensible girl, and I have a lot of confidence in her ability to just get on with it. But this is Yr 7 so we possibly have a good few years to go.
I may talk to her form teacher at the first parent/teacher meeting.

Bowlersarm Sun 13-Oct-13 16:05:08

It would worry me OP, but I don't know what the answer is.

Alisvolatpropiis Sun 13-Oct-13 16:05:33

It's a class for very intelligent children. If he is in it, then he too is a very intelligent child. One who also happens to have autism.

The teacher and parents need to teach the other children how to work through disruption. It's a skill they will find invaluable as life goes on not just now.

macdoodle Sun 13-Oct-13 16:05:56

Alexa, yes but those assessing him will be looking at his needs, and not those of the other 20 children in his class?

CeliaFate Sun 13-Oct-13 16:06:03

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macdoodle Sun 13-Oct-13 16:07:15

Yes, I agree, it is a useful skill to learn to ignore things that distract you, but first term in Yr 7, in a class of children who are under quite a lot of pressure to achieve?

PeepingTomcat Sun 13-Oct-13 16:07:27

Fucking hell. I am honestly aghast at your opinion of this poor boy who has an ILLNESS!

I'm hiding the thread now sad

AlexaChelsea Sun 13-Oct-13 16:07:31

I'm actually in tears of disgust and bewilderment.

God forbid your precious child have some lesson time disrupted because of an SN child.

Imagine other parents started complaining about your DD, asking that she be removed as she was a disruption? How would you feel?

coldwinter Sun 13-Oct-13 16:07:36

Alis - Are you expected to do a piece of work at employment while someone has a tantrum or hits someone else? And the OP's DD is getting less teaching time as a result. Yes he is intelligent, nobody is denying that. And he should be taught at a level to meet his intelligence. But the other children matter too.

AlexaChelsea Sun 13-Oct-13 16:09:30

Exactly. And if it is really affecting the other 19 children, then presumably the professionals will move him to a more suitable SN part of the school.

They haven't, and probably for good reason.

If it was really as bad as you are making out, they would have.

Strumpetron Sun 13-Oct-13 16:09:36

I don't even know what to say because on this forum all you'll get is people getting on their high horses because he has special needs. He has the right to an education just as anyone else has, but sitting in this classroom is obviously not the right learning environment for him. He isn't learning, the other kids aren't learning so I would be very worried and I'd question why the teachers are failing the child with SN and the others.

macdoodle Sun 13-Oct-13 16:09:37

FWIW said pressure comes from school not me (though I expect my DD1 to achieve her potential). They have been told from day 1 that they are expected to achieve and perform to keep their place in this class. A lot for 11/12 yr olds, and then to have this constant distraction/disturbance...
And I get monosyllables about almost everything else but long tales of what X did today. They are fascinated what he gets away with, especially the hitting a teacher one!

macdoodle Sun 13-Oct-13 16:11:37

If my DD1 was as disruptive as this seems to be, I would most certainly be taking steps to address it. Are you saying the other children (including my "precious" DD1) are LESS important that this boy BECAUSE he has a disability?

CrohnicallyLurking Sun 13-Oct-13 16:11:51

It sounds like, for whatever reason, the boy's needs are not being met either. Otherwise he wouldn't be having a meltdown so frequently. Hopefully it is just a temporary blip while he settles in to a new school (remember children with autism often find change very hard to deal with) but if it is ongoing then YANBU to hope that they find some way to reduce the disruption- both for your DD's sake, and the boy's sake.

Jesus, my DS has AS and had TA support in a mainstream class, I suppose people talked about him like this. sad
YABU, your DD won't be as 'disrupted'by this boys disability as his life is!

Alisvolatpropiis Sun 13-Oct-13 16:12:02


I have worked with people who have Austin or other disabilities. And yes I was capable of and expected to carry on working if there was any issue.

Next question?

AlexaChelsea Sun 13-Oct-13 16:12:19

The people advocating the SN boy be moved/dealt with are obviously not people with any personal experience of SN. You are lucky, but fucking hell are you rude.

And if you do, god help them.

outtolunchagain Sun 13-Oct-13 16:13:00

The thing is the boy is clearly very stressed by the environment so it's not working for him either .

OP you are not being unreasonable but if he is needing that much intervention on a day to day basis then I should think the arrangement will already be under review and will hopefully be resolved

coldwinter Sun 13-Oct-13 16:13:22

I do have experience of autism. Please do not assume.

AlexaChelsea Sun 13-Oct-13 16:13:31

Yep, I manage to get through my life pretty well, by learning to adapt to 'disruption'. It's not that hard, really.

Strumpetron Sun 13-Oct-13 16:13:51

AlexaChelsea since you know so much, how would you go about sorting this out?

Floggingmolly Sun 13-Oct-13 16:14:30

Agree, Celia

Bowlersarm Sun 13-Oct-13 16:14:32

Alexa whilst I sympathise with you, I don't think the OP is unreasonable to worry about her own daughter.

CrohnicallyLurking Sun 13-Oct-13 16:14:38

Oh- and I wouldn't expect a student whether or not they have SN to 'get away' with hitting a teacher. I assume that things are going on 'behind the scenes' so to speak, that your DD is not privy to, and the boy will be getting more appropriate support to enable him to settle.

At our school, we have a 5 year old pupil with autism, and when he hit a teacher it was dealt with in a way that he could understand, not necessarily the way that other pupils would be dealt with, and it was used as evidence to get him more support.

macdoodle Sun 13-Oct-13 16:14:41

Sauvignon, I am sorry for your lad, and believe me I do not talk to my DD1, about it like this. I feel very sorry for the lad, he sounds very unsettled, and quite isolated. I am a doctor, and well aware of autism/ADHD issues, and these are what I tell my DD1, trying to explain why he is like this and to just try and ignore it. That doesnt stop me being concerned about the affect on her, am a parent surely that is allowed.

JumpingJackSprat Sun 13-Oct-13 16:14:45

is it just me or is there a glut of these nasty posts recently where rather than teaching their precious children to be inclusive and tolerant, the parents ie posters, see the SN children as a problem?

how do you know your daughter is giving you the full story?

AlexaChelsea Sun 13-Oct-13 16:15:41

Sorting what out?

Th child probably needs more time to settle into a new environment.

That's my very basic guess, based on little knowledge (even the op doesn't know if he has SN) and the fact I haven't met him, or know anything about him.

whois Sun 13-Oct-13 16:16:40

That's a shit situation. Inclusion can fail quite spectacularly.

Also, I don't know anyone (except on MN) who would think it was acceptable to have 29 children's learning disrupted by one child. It's shit for them, and it's shit for the child with SEN.

coldwinter Sun 13-Oct-13 16:16:42

I would be complaining at work if I was trying to do something complicated that required concentration, and a colleague was hitting another colleague or having a tantrum. And this kind of thing was happening every day. We are not talking about someone talking, shouting out or laughing. There is a level of disruption it is reasonable to get used to. This is not it.

This boy needs a good education that meets his high intelligence. But the other children matter too. Some of you are simply saying they don't matter and should just get used to this high level of disruption and less teaching time, on a daily basis.

macdoodle Sun 13-Oct-13 16:16:48

I certainly hope that there are things going on behind scenes, because its quite hard to explain to a 12yr old why some things are completely unacceptable for her, but to her appear are ok for others.
I was not advocating moving him, but am concerned.

Strumpetron Sun 13-Oct-13 16:17:05

How long is more time Alexa?

The boy obviously needs more help, so he and the class can learn. I don't think people should just have to merely 'adapt' and be expected to 'get along with it' in a situation that isn't nice for anyone.

Alliwantisaroomsomewhere Sun 13-Oct-13 16:17:15

OP, YANBU. I am with Coldwinter on this.

Clearly the boy in question in not coping well and needs a more suitable and more appropriate environment. From what OP said, the poor kid is completely stressed out and it is upsetting the entire class in some way or other. The situation is not fair on anyone, let alone child who was additional needs.

LazyGaga Sun 13-Oct-13 16:17:49


Agree with CeliaFate.

AlexaChelsea Sun 13-Oct-13 16:17:51

If your child's education is really likely to suffer because of a bit of disruption, then you could try alternative education - extra tuition, parent homework, even home schooling. Or move her to a different school.

macdoodle Sun 13-Oct-13 16:18:45

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Strumpetron Sun 13-Oct-13 16:19:10

I wouldn't call a teacher and a pupil being assaulted a 'bit of disruption'.

AlexaChelsea Sun 13-Oct-13 16:19:17

So, coldwinter' if you worked with someone with SN who hbehaved in the way you described, you'd complain about them?

Bloody. Hell.

5madthings Sun 13-Oct-13 16:19:36

Its very early in the term, all the children are still settling in. Hopefully this boy will get the support he needs to handle the transition to high school.

We cannot and must not exclude children or adults with special needs because those needs make life more difficult. As a society we need to be aware, to have some empathy and yes make allowances even if it does mean putting ourselves out.

Penny13 Sun 13-Oct-13 16:19:54

I can see both sides but I wouldn't know what to do. If the poor lad is being disruptive then surely whatever strategy the school is trying to put in place isn't working. I would talk to the teacher OP because as you have mentioned there could be years of this to come. Yr 7 not that bad but what happens when it is still happening when GCSE's are around the corner?

AlexaChelsea Sun 13-Oct-13 16:20:34

Her potential isn't going to be sacrificed because of a few weeks in year 7.

Imagine it was your DD that had SN. Please.

macdoodle Sun 13-Oct-13 16:20:43

Alexa, luckily my DD1 is extremely able and I give a lot of support and encouragement at home, are you saying all the other children should get extra support or move because of 1 child ?? Really, thats a solution.

Alisvolatpropiis Sun 13-Oct-13 16:21:04

Ah - teach them young to not tolerate people who are different that's an excellent lesson hmm

After half term things may be changed with regard to this boys level of inclusion as he sounds very stressed. Or he might be able to cope better with it.

All children have needs of course and it's not that his are more important than the others - he just has more needs.

Some posters here seem quite strikingly unpleasant.

froubylou Sun 13-Oct-13 16:21:15

None of the children are maximising on the lesson time are they? The boy with SN and the other 19 pupils.

Children with SN have as much right to an education as any other child. But there right to an education does not mean that other children miss out on even 1 minute of their education to accommodate another childs SNs. Otherwise you are discriminating against the children without SN.

And as adults and parents we need to be able to say this without being accused of being discriminatory. All parents of all children need to know their children are getting the same educational opportunities. And if 1 childs SNs reduce those opportunities for all of that class then something needs to be done.

coldwinter Sun 13-Oct-13 16:22:20

Alexa, no it is not about complaining about the child. It is complaining about the way the school is handling the needs of the different children in the school.

If this was a class of 5 year olds, there would be plenty of time to see if things settled down. But it isn't, the children are expected to knuckle down and achieve. And at the moment the school is not meeting the needs of the children in this class.

Bowlersarm Sun 13-Oct-13 16:22:57

Still agree with you OP. You should be concerned for your daughters education, and it shouldn't be derailed on a daily basis.

Year 7 doesn't matter too much, but the further up the school she goes, the more important it becomes.

AlexaChelsea Sun 13-Oct-13 16:23:29

No. Hopefully most of the other children will realise that everyone is different, some people have more needs than others.

You should actually be pleased that by getting to know someone with SN, your DD will likely be learning a more tolerant attitude than most people here seem to have.

The fact that she doesn't have this tolerance, or that is it is diminishing, is worrying. I'd be a lot more bothered about that, tbh.

ShoeWhore Sun 13-Oct-13 16:23:58

I certainly hope that there are things going on behind scenes, because its quite hard to explain to a 12yr old why some things are completely unacceptable for her, but to her appear are ok for others

Really? My 6yo seems perfectly able to grasp this concept and shows pretty good understanding and compassion towards the little boy with autism in his class.

I know quite a few (NT) children who are finding the transition to secondary school quite tough and stressful. It's not that surprising that this poor boy is taking some time to settle, is it?

coldwinter Sun 13-Oct-13 16:24:05

Year 7 is actually important for making up for any inadequacies in learning in primary school.

Thank for your concern OP but I fail to see why you 'feel sorry for' my son? confused
He's a happy, well-adjusted, clever, handsome young man who is enjoying starting sixth form.
He's sitting at my feet playing on his x-box, I shan't pass on your sympathy if you don't mind. hmm

macdoodle Sun 13-Oct-13 16:24:23

Jumping, well of course I don't know that DD1 is telling the full story. Sadly I suspect it is even worse, because as a typical 12yr old girl, I dont always get more than a yes/no/fine, but I certainly hear a lot of stories about X, every day, almost every lesson from what I can tell. She certainly has no reason to make it up, and the story is exactly the same from her friend in the same class.
So what do I do, ignore it for now, for how long? For ever? Is mentioning it to the form teacher at the first parent- teacher meeting acceptable?

AlexaChelsea Sun 13-Oct-13 16:24:59

Butt h school have obviously assessed his needs as best being fulfilled in the NT class?

So, what are you complaining about? That you think you know better because your 11yo DD is having some lesson time disrupted?

5madthings Sun 13-Oct-13 16:25:12
BeaverAbroad Sun 13-Oct-13 16:25:36

If your DD is correct (and at Yr7, I see no reason why she wouldn't be) then I think YANBU, Both the other children and the boy are being failed. The boy in question obviously isn't being supported properly and he is being failed. I'm sure he's not getting much in the way of education if he is not being supported and is struggling to cope. The other children are equally as important as him, and they are being failed too. He grabbed a boy by his collar and threw him to the floor. The children in the class deserve to be able to go to school and be educated without that happening. The boy deserves to go to school, be educated and supported so that it doesn't get to the point where he feels so trapped, this is how he reacts. If he is being violent (which is the result of his SN) then he needs to be supported, supervised and helped (so that there are preventative measures, not just acting afterwards) to ensure EVERYONE can access their education, the whole class, including him. He isn't the problem, what appears to be a lack off support IS.

roadwalker Sun 13-Oct-13 16:25:37

There are issues here about meeting all the childrens needs appropriately
The bit I love OP is where you said 'if my child were acting like that I would be addressing it' or words to that affect
My DD can act like that, she is brain damaged because her birth mother drank alcohol and injected heroin when she was pregnant
Please tell me how you would address it - I would love the advice

Strumpetron Sun 13-Oct-13 16:25:40

So the OP's daughter should be thankful her class is being disrupted because she's getting to know someone with special needs. Oh eff education hmm

I think thats quite patronising. I don't think the boy would benefit from this either.

I'm also worried about the boy and wonder if his parents know that he's being triggered so often in the classes.

AlexaChelsea Sun 13-Oct-13 16:26:48

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Alisvolatpropiis Sun 13-Oct-13 16:26:54


There probably are things going on behind the scenes. But the school doesn't have to tell you what they are.

You do sound genuinely concerned for all involved in fairness. Perhaps arrange a emerging to talk through your concerns with the class teacher? Being concerned is fine, demanding he be removed is not and you're not doing the latter.

It isn't ideal for your DD the lessons are being disrupted. But it's a whole lot less ideal for the boy and his parents. Perhaps he is desperately keen to be accepted but the whole high school experience has made it difficult to do so straight away.

Lots of children really struggle with the transition from primary to secondary school. It's a huge change.

coldwinter Sun 13-Oct-13 16:27:26

Road - I agree. It is not necessarily possible always to do more than manage behaviour like that.

CeliaFate Sun 13-Oct-13 16:28:07

A disrupted education on a daily basis, witnessing a child who is so distressed by his environment that he hits the teacher are not a prerequisite for a tolerant attitude.

You can be tolerant while still expecting to be taught at school without staff interrupting the lesson to physically restrain a child.

In fact I would argue that you would be MORE tolerant as both of your needs would be addressed if the boy wasn't in that class without enough support. Right now I expect a lot of them are really pissed off.

gordyslovesheep Sun 13-Oct-13 16:28:21

I'd love to know where my dd1 is supposed to go then - she can be disruptive and gets upset when she is frustrated or afraid - she has ASD - she is in year 6 and currently working at a level 7 in maths and English

what is suitable for her I wonder

Strumpetron Sun 13-Oct-13 16:28:36

No, her daughter has a low tolerance for classtime being disrupted and people being assaulted in front of her. There are severe failings on the school part if a classroom of 29 is expected to simply tolerate this and accept it as the norm.

I hope there is something going on behind the scenes because my sympathies are with the whole class.

Pagwatch Sun 13-Oct-13 16:29:08

The OP is a Doctor.

<gives up>

AlexaChelsea Sun 13-Oct-13 16:29:33

Ah, become more tolerant by hiding him away.

That sounds like a good idea.

So, I shall just tell the school that when my DS is 'being disruptive' to get take her out. So the other children don't get pissed off and less tolerant hmm

macdoodle Sun 13-Oct-13 16:29:53

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Strumpetron Sun 13-Oct-13 16:30:02

And it's patronising for the boy with Autism if his classmates see him as nothing more than something to be tolerated. What a sad state of affairs.

coldwinter Sun 13-Oct-13 16:30:15

OP - I would talk to the teacher. Don't blame the boy, it is not his fault. But concentrate on the disruption to your child's learning e.g. less teaching time and major disruption in lessons.

Same place as my DS I think Gordy, kept away from all the 'normal' children. hmm sad

AlexaChelsea Sun 13-Oct-13 16:30:46

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morethanpotatoprints Sun 13-Oct-13 16:31:37


It seems to me like they have just lumped together anybody with additional educational needs into the same class.
Unless I'm mistaken isn't "more able" the new term for G&T which is also an AEN.
I am not implying that this boy is not also "more able" as I have a dd who is both dyslexic and more able at some things.
It is wrong when a class is being disrupted for whatever reason and too long assessments have found certain dc to be capable of mainstream education because there is no alternative.
Everybody deserves a good education irrespective of bureaucracy, funding or any other issue.

Strumpetron Sun 13-Oct-13 16:32:09

Alexa I haven't said he should be hiding away, he needs more help in a way that is suited for him personally.

The school have a duty of care to the children and if they are being assaulted then it needs to be addressed, massive safe guarding issue. Being physically hurt or mentally abuse shouldn't be tolerated from anyone. Obviously a higher degree of understanding is needed in this case, but still.

It doesn't sound as though anybody in the class, pupils or staff, are having a very happy or successful learning experience. I think that I, as an adult, would struggle to ignore somebody being assaulted in the same room. I hope that the school are able to find a better way of supporting the lad in his classes, so that he feels able to participate in the lesson.

MrsDeVere Sun 13-Oct-13 16:32:21


Pagwatch Sun 13-Oct-13 16:32:23

The thing that irritates me is how quickly people focus on the child with SN instead of ocusing upon the fact that the class would run smoothly if all the childrens needs we're being met.

My child is in year 6. If she came home every day with gossipy tales of the behaviour of one child with SN I would be mortified.

JumpingJackSprat Sun 13-Oct-13 16:32:26

maybe you need to learnn tolerance too.

Strumpetron Sun 13-Oct-13 16:32:37

And now the insults on the OP's character and profession?

Put the claws away.

CeliaFate Sun 13-Oct-13 16:32:41

Nobody is saying hide him away.
What I am saying is nobody is gaining in the current set up.
The boy is being taken away physically by force - is that better than being in an environment where there are more staff, with appropriate resources that would cause him less stress?
Of course the boy deserves everything we all deserve - but he sure as hell isn't getting it at the moment.
If I was his mother I'd be fighting his corner, if I was the OP I'd be fighting for dd's right not to have to put up with this behaviour - regardless of its cause.

FanjoForTheMammaries Sun 13-Oct-13 16:33:04

How can people think it's right to post things like this..then others falling over themselves to agree..not on high horse..on disgusted horse.

nennypops Sun 13-Oct-13 16:33:15

I don't get why people go for the kneejerk reaction that the answer to this issue is to remove the boy in question from the class. Surely the reality is that the school needs to address whatever it is that is making him so anxious and stressed that he kicks off, to enable him to stay there without disrupting the others? As has been pointed out, it is common for children with ASD to have difficulty in coping with changes in routine, and starting secondary with its regular changes of classroom and teacher must be very difficult for this boy: but the way to deal with this is not to chuck him out but, for instance, to spend a lot of time preparing him for what is coming next and reassuring him. Or it may well be that he has sensory issues and has trouble coping with classroom noise and crowds, so steps need to be taken to minimise distractions and help him to develop strategies to help him cope.

Add message | Report | Message poster macdoodle Sun 13-Oct-13 16:14:41
Sauvignon, I am sorry for your lad, and believe me I do not talk to my DD1, about it like this
???? confused
Was the above post from someone else OP? hmm

macdoodle Sun 13-Oct-13 16:34:13

Ah ok I see now, my DD1 is less important as are the other children in the class.
Anyone who expresses any concern for any of the children including X, is unreasonable, nasty, intolerant, oh and insulting my perfectly reasonable and very kind DD1 is out of order, ta.
If you have a child with SN you are allowed to insult others with impunity, and make their concerns much less important, because your life is harder.
Just what I expected of MN, shouldnt have bothered really.

WestieMamma Sun 13-Oct-13 16:34:23

My daughter has AS, as do I. If she was behaving like this at school I'd be extremely angry with the school. It not right for an autistic child to be put in a position where they are that distressed every day. It's a terrible situation all round.

AlexaChelsea Sun 13-Oct-13 16:34:51

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Strumpetron Sun 13-Oct-13 16:35:00

OP, my final message, I'd go into the school and without asking for details because those are confidential, just ask if it is being addressed. That's all you can do at the moment.

Hopefully they'll all get the help they need, and the education they deserve.

Alliwantisaroomsomewhere Sun 13-Oct-13 16:35:20

Pagwatch has a good point.

Fuck, some of you people are holier than thou!!

CeliaFate Sun 13-Oct-13 16:35:27

How about the teacher's right not to be assaulted? Or the other children's?

Pagwatch Sun 13-Oct-13 16:35:37

Is observing that the op is a Doctor an insult?

I would have hoped it meant a modicum of understanding is all. But happy to be wrong.

FanjoForTheMammaries Sun 13-Oct-13 16:35:42

No you shouldn't have bothered. Crass, offensive thread

ShadeofViolet Sun 13-Oct-13 16:36:12

Why are there so many threads like this just lately?

CoffeeTea103 Sun 13-Oct-13 16:36:35

Yanbu, your dd has every right to be educated in an environment that is safe and she is not disruptive like such. Everybody seems to be focusing on the boy having sn and seems that you and your dd should be tolerant and accept it. You shouldn't! Her learning environment should not be sacrificed. It doesn't seem that this situation is the right one for the boy and the school should definitely be stepping in more.

FanjoForTheMammaries Sun 13-Oct-13 16:36:36

Happy to be called holier than thou by people who don't see why this thread is offensive.

Strumpetron Sun 13-Oct-13 16:36:37

pagwatch I was referring to She must be some fucking doctor if her diagnosis is based on tales from an 11yo

and following on from that now calling her daughter a 'gossip' hmm

Penny13 Sun 13-Oct-13 16:37:00

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Bowlersarm Sun 13-Oct-13 16:37:07

Still with you OP.

People angrily posting about their own children with SN have little to do with your justifiable concern over your daughter.

You need to speak to the school about the situation she is in.

This poor lad he sounds so stressed. I work with disabled young people, some really struggle in mainstream schools despite support. Stress, weightloss, absconding, tantrums etc etc.

I feel for him.

Dawndonnaagain Sun 13-Oct-13 16:37:18

In all of this, the OP hasn't mentioned the triggers, that I can see. What is triggering this behaviour, if it's high school, I strongly suspect that some of it is coming from within the classroom.

AlexaChelsea Sun 13-Oct-13 16:37:24

Your concern isn't for the boy.

It's for the disruption to your DD's education.

You've said this, very clearly, from the start. Don't try to change your intentions now.

And don't begin to comment on people who have children with SN, and their lives being harder, because you have no idea.

Pagwatch Sun 13-Oct-13 16:37:34

I have no problem with people being concerned if a class situation isn't working.
It should be resolved for the benefit of every child.

That's not quite this thread is it?

nennypops Sun 13-Oct-13 16:38:15

Must admit that as soon as I read the immortal phrase "political correctness" in one of the OP's posts I lost an awful lot of sympathy. Wanting a disabled child to be educated at level appropriate to his ability and with the right level of support really isn't political correctness, you know.

blueemerald Sun 13-Oct-13 16:38:39

I totally agree that everyone is entitled to an education but it seems to me that no one is getting one in this situation. The DD and her classmates, including the boy with autism, are all suffering. The boy is almost definitely suffering more than most.
More needs to be done to discover what he is finding it difficult to deal so strategies can be put in place. The obvious things to start with are sensory issues and variation in classroom routine/unpredictable behaviour but every student is different.

I work in an SEBD secondary school and many of our students are also diagnosed with autism. We have a clear and consistent classroom routine that we all use as much as possible so the students know what is coming every lesson.

lborolass Sun 13-Oct-13 16:38:42

The OP doesn't know the full facts but what seems clear is that none of the children in the class can possibly be learning at their full potential and to say that the school should be trying to find a better solution for the whole class isn't anti SN inclusion

Surely no one individual childs needs should trump all the others whoever that child is.

FanjoForTheMammaries Sun 13-Oct-13 16:38:45

My own child is not in Mainstream. .nor does she have disruptive behaviour.

Kids in her class do..I don't post threads bitching about them

Because they have SN and I have a wee bit of compassion

CeliaFate Sun 13-Oct-13 16:39:20

"Your concern isn't for the boy.

It's for the disruption to your DD's education.

You've said this, very clearly, from the start. Don't try to change your intentions now"

Aren't your concerns for your dc? Or do you include everyone else's dc's feelings into the equation whenever you're upset or angry?

Strumpetron Sun 13-Oct-13 16:39:33

Dawndonnaagain that's what I was thinking too. I wonder if the teachers have tried to establish if there any any triggers in the classroom to account for him feeling so uncomfortable.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

hermioneweasley Sun 13-Oct-13 16:39:38

If it truly is every (or most) lessons every school day and it's not improving, it doesn't sound like anyone's educational needs are being met.

And yes, I would be speaking to the school about it.

ShadeofViolet Sun 13-Oct-13 16:39:40

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

Alisvolatpropiis Sun 13-Oct-13 16:40:08

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macdoodle Sun 13-Oct-13 16:40:24

Right am going to say this one more time then I'm off I think.
I did not once say exclude or remove him?
My Dd1 is not "gossiping" or intolerant. I ask about her day, she says "oh maths was good, we learnt this..., so and so forgot her trainers and got a demerit, and X did this or that and had to be taken out again" the only constant is what X has done.
I am concerned in this order (1) my DD1 (she is my priority), (2) the whole class, which seems very unsettled, (3) X, he sounds like he is having a horrible time.
The personal insults on me and DD1 seems uncalled for, and much more nasty than anything I said.

Penny13 Sun 13-Oct-13 16:41:12

So are MNetters saying the OP should only be thinking about the lad in this situation? Not HER DD who's education will suffer long term when it doesn't have to?
I thought people were rational

Pagwatch Sun 13-Oct-13 16:41:13

Well it is gossipy isn't it?

My DD told me about a naughty girl in her class a few times. We very quickly had conversations about why that was not her concern, why talking about her bad behaviour outside the assroom wasn't very kind and why she would be far less aware of this girls behaviour if she was once treating on her own work.

Isn't that what we do? Not listen intently?

Branleuse Sun 13-Oct-13 16:41:16

There are very very few schools available for academically able children with autism, and the places in the ones available are incredibly hard to get a place in.
The closing down of specialist schools in order for "every child to be entitled to a mainstream education" has had huge repercussions.
Higher functioning autistic children are often the ones more unlikel;y to be catered for. An educational statement is incredibly hard to get if your child is academically normal, let alone excelling, yet social skills and disruptive behaviour can totally prevent the child from accessing a decent education, and also be disruptive for the other children in the class.
Im sorry this is affecting your child. This is something that many people have been concerned about for years, and is likely to only get worse with the removal of the educational statement system

PerpendicularVince Sun 13-Oct-13 16:41:25

OP, I understand your concerns for your child and YANBU. Everyone deserves an education suitable for their circumstances and needs.

It sounds like both the boy himself and the rest of the class are being failed. It's unfair that the rest of the class are having reduced teaching time and that the boy isn't receiving adequate support - both have equal rights and the posters suggesting your DD moves school etc are wrong.

A problem with MN is that discussions around SN invariably end emotively and angrily, there's rarely a rational discussion.

RavenRose Sun 13-Oct-13 16:41:26

It's shit like this that makes me dread dd2 going to secondary next year. She's also "more able" and has asd. Seriously sepress

So upset and angry they can't remember what they posted less that half an hour ago.

Add message | Report | Message poster macdoodle Sun 13-Oct-13 16:14:41
Sauvignon, I am sorry for your lad,

AlexaChelsea Sun 13-Oct-13 16:41:54

It's not about her being a doctor, FFS. It's about the fact she might be a doctor, or a cleaner. Doesn't fucking matter, she hasn't met the boy, or observed his behaviour. Her DD isn't a doctor.

celia - whilst I am concerned for my DC, like all parents, I do not consider them the centre of the world and therefore, yes, I do take other children's feelings into account. My children aren't always right, or the most important. They sometimes have to amen sacrifices for others.

RavenRose Sun 13-Oct-13 16:42:20

Seriously depressing thread.

Twiggy71 Sun 13-Oct-13 16:42:44

I work with children with sen especially children with autism and feel that this little boy needs a more nurturing and specialist environment to meet his needs. His current placement is definitely not working for him.
And meanwhile your dd's needs aren't being met either.

This whole situation needs reassessed where all the children's needs are met if I was you I would have a word with your child's teacher and tell them your concerns..

coldwinter Sun 13-Oct-13 16:42:54

There may be better ways to manage the child and any triggers so he can stay in the classroom. But the school need to be doing much better than this.

And no talking to your mum about your experiences at school, is not gossiping.

FanjoForTheMammaries Sun 13-Oct-13 16:43:38

A problem with MN is people keep posting intolerant threads about kids with SN

Strumpetron Sun 13-Oct-13 16:44:02

pagwatch personally I wouldn't do that because I think it's quite dismissive of your child perceiving people. I mean I don't go for the whole telling tales and gossiping, but if she's just telling her mother about a girl in school it's not something major? And if the girl did something that affected your daughter do you think she'd still come to you or would she group it all in the same boat?

Bit off thread, I apologise.

Alisvolatpropiis Sun 13-Oct-13 16:44:06

So op you say in your post that you know you're probably being unreasonable and are willing to hear it.

However you clearly are not.

macdoodle Sun 13-Oct-13 16:45:19

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mumofthemonsters808 Sun 13-Oct-13 16:45:37

I understand your concerns Macdoodle, my DD is also in year 7 and I would be worried about this situation. By the sound of things it does not seem to be working for the boy, the teacher or the rest of the class. Hopefully this situation will not continue into next term, if not I would then speak to her form teacher.

Ignore the nasty comments, your posts have been very reasonable.

AlexaChelsea Sun 13-Oct-13 16:45:42

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coldwinter Sun 13-Oct-13 16:45:53

I agree strump. She should not be gossiping about it in school. But telling her mother what happened at school, is normal.

sweetmelissa Sun 13-Oct-13 16:45:55

I am a parent whose sons were boys with with autism spectrum/learning disabilities/behavioural difficulties and some physical problems who continually disrupted lessons and other children's learning. Having adopted them as toddlers his horrific start in life could also be attributed to their problems too.

I believed it was in the interest of everyone that one of my children should not be educated in a mainstream school (what use were quadratic equations when he could not count to five). It was then, and still is, the policy for as many children as possible to be educated in a mainstream school (well it costs less of course). The education authority made their decision he must continue his education, with support, in the school where he was.

So my husband and I took over and fought for SEVEN years, going through to tribunals and eventually courts, it costs us a fortune in time and money, employing experts when necessary but devoting ourselves full time t winning our case. Eventually we did win and my son was able to be educated in a wonderful special school that could meet his needs.

Once there he eventually made his first friend, he actually had his first invitation and as his parents we were not shunned either. The children he left behind could no doubt, work better without distraction. But, as I say, it took SEVEN years. His twin brother we removed to a college that could meet his needs at the earliest opportunity too. I guess everyone breathed a huge sigh of relief when he left school.

I bet most of the parents of the children in his class felt as the OP did. What can I say, I agree, yes, I'm sorry. But my it isn't the child's fault, it isn't even the school's fault...and my heart breaks for this child and his parents who government policy dictates must stay where he is.

btw I am now fostering teenagers with many difficulties so have to face the wrath of the other children's parents all over ain't nice, but can I ask the OP what the alternative should be?

Sorry, going on, I know.

BeaverAbroad Sun 13-Oct-13 16:46:40

To be fair, Alexa* most people are primarily concerned with their own DC, because they're your DC. However, for schools, they should be ensuring school is a good place for every child in the class.

This boy is evidently suffering and not being supported enough, then this is affecting the whole class. The boy isn't the problem- he's a victim-, the school/not supporting him is (probably) the problem.

babydueinmarch Sun 13-Oct-13 16:47:36

YANBU at all to think it is disruptive or to have concerns about the progress of the other children in the class.

The problem is that inclusion, while working brilliantly for some, leaves others out in the cold. The one size fits all approach of "stick another adult in the class" doesn't work for all children.

I have no idea what to suggest as an alternative though but I would not be at all happy.

ChippingInNeedsSleepAndCoffee Sun 13-Oct-13 16:47:41

Was he at school with these children before this year?

How many of her classes does DD have with him?

Alisvolatpropiis Sun 13-Oct-13 16:47:47

Bye then <waves>

ShadeofViolet Sun 13-Oct-13 16:48:28

A problem with MN is people keep posting intolerant threads about kids with SN

^ this ^

The big problem round here is that a proportion of posters think people with disabilities shouldn't be allowed out, incase they take up a place on the bus that means they have to fold down their buggy, or make too much noise in a restaurant.

The problem is they don't see a person with disabilities as a person, they see them as an annoyance.

AlexaChelsea Sun 13-Oct-13 16:48:31

Ha ha righteous bitch?! That's new. I like that!

No, fucking hell I am not perfect.

But some things happened in my life that gave me some perspective, and though I'm not perfect, I am a much better person because of it.

CeliaFate Sun 13-Oct-13 16:48:42

AlexaChelsea you are very angry and insulting in your posts. Not very tolerant at all.

Strumpetron Sun 13-Oct-13 16:48:46

sweetmelissa I got a lump in me throat when you said your son made his first best friend! It's a bloody shame you had to go through such a battle to get him somewhere where he feels comfortable.

CeliaFate Sun 13-Oct-13 16:50:23

*The big problem round here is that a proportion of posters think people with disabilities shouldn't be allowed out, incase they take up a place on the bus that means they have to fold down their buggy, or make too much noise in a restaurant.

The problem is they don't see a person with disabilities as a person, they see them as an annoyance.*

This attitude really annoys me - who the hell has said any of the above in this thread? The op is concerned about her dd's education and the school clearly cannot cope with the demands of the boy with sn. Nobody's winning, a solution should be found. That's all!

FanjoForTheMammaries Sun 13-Oct-13 16:50:26

I cant imagine actually posting this even if I thought it..would be ashamed..strange how some people are gleefully piling in

AlexaChelsea Sun 13-Oct-13 16:50:56

celia I absolutely agree with you, I am very intolerant of people who think of SN people as an annoyance.

coldwinter Sun 13-Oct-13 16:51:02

"The big problem round here is that a proportion of posters think people with disabilities shouldn't be allowed out, incase they take up a place on the bus that means they have to fold down their buggy, or make too much noise in a restaurant.

The problem is they don't see a person with disabilities as a person, they see them as an annoyance."

Nope. This boy's neesd are important too. And of course people with disabilities should go out and about. Nobody has said anything different.

But the OP is right to care about her DD too. Why should her DD's education suffer?

CeliaFate Sun 13-Oct-13 16:51:30

sweetmelissa you've summed it up perfectly.

Twiggy71 Sun 13-Oct-13 16:52:20

Op your right to have concerns this is your own dd I think you have been unfairly judged here. I hope you get some resolution to the situation you dd is experiencing.

CeliaFate Sun 13-Oct-13 16:52:52

It's the behaviour that's the annoyance, not because he's a boy with sn. Deal with the behaviour (and I blame the school here if anyone, as they are the ones who should be managing this better) and the boy would be happier, surely?

Penny13 Sun 13-Oct-13 16:52:58

AlexaChelsea you are very angry and insulting in your posts. Not very tolerant at all.

I agree this is obviously a very sensitive issue but the OP wasn't insulting peoples children she was concerned with her own.

coldwinter Sun 13-Oct-13 16:53:00

And lets be clear. The OP is not talking about a child who talks or shouts out in some lessons. Or even a child who has a meltdown once a week. The OP is talking about a situation were this child is assaulting other children and the teacher, and disrupting every single day's of teaching.

neunundneunzigluftballons Sun 13-Oct-13 16:53:06

Every child needs to have their education tailored to their needs so far as possible within an education system. It is not clear to me, from the OP, that is happening for either the student in question or the rest of the class. A child having tantrums in the middle of a classroom is obviously not having his needs met but neither are the rest of the students. Perhaps it would be beneficial when the outbursts are taking place that the child is taken else where and returned to the class when things have calmed down.

I have yet to meet anyone who can study in a really disruptive environment so those suggesting the others need to get on with it are being completely unreasonable IMO. OP I definitly would support the school in attempting to put this child into a class matching his academic abilities but I would definitely ask them to come up with a more appropriate strategy for deling with these outbursts.

Pagwatch Sun 13-Oct-13 16:53:47


No, she would feel perfectly comfortable telling me if there was a serious incident, if she was struggling because of the situation or if she were directly affected because that's different.

If a child is settling, obviously struggling and there is disruption then just cataloging it ll the time would, to me, be gossipy. Because what is the point other than 'OMG - guess what he did today!'

She talks to me about everything and I find her perspective interesting. But it is just the daily detailing of a child struggling. I think she is kinder than that. If she isn't, she should be.

SharpLily Sun 13-Oct-13 16:55:05

There's a huge difference between saying that "people with disabilities shouldn't be allowed out, incase they take up a place on the bus that means they have to fold down their buggy, or make too much noise in a restaurant" and expressing justified concern that a child's education is being disrupted. SN shouldn't really be an issue here. If you are concerned about the behaviour of another child, bring it up with the school and let them deal with it - or are some of the holier than thou on here trying to suggest that because a child has special needs he/she is 'above the law'? Of course the child in question has the right to an appropriate education, but don't the other children too? Should his rights be put above or below those of the other 19 children? Ignore the special needs bit, OP, just gently inform the school that you've heard a lot about class disruption. It's not the OP's place to find a solution, only to seek the best possible education for her child.

AlexaChelsea Sun 13-Oct-13 16:55:17

Indeed, but I find her attitude insulting.

Coupon Sun 13-Oct-13 16:56:32

YANBU. All children have the right to an environment which is conducive to learning. A regularly disruptive environment is not going to be as good for learning as a settled environment. Obviously the other students will try and ignore the regular interruptions, but it won't be the same level of concentration as well as in a peaceful, calm environment. Of course disruption impacts on the other students in the class, even though it's obviously not the fault of the student with SN. This student should be receiving better support from the school, so he can be fully included and involved in the class, as it sounds like he's not able to fully benefit from the classes ATM. And it sounds like some of the calming down would be better to take place outside the class until he's able to join in again.

coldwinter Sun 13-Oct-13 16:56:47

I was a very shy child. Having another child biting or pinching me in class would have made me withdraw even more.

coldwinter Sun 13-Oct-13 16:58:27

Coupon, in fairness to the school, sometimes trying to remove a child from a class can actually be even more disruptive.

ShadeofViolet Sun 13-Oct-13 16:58:55

This attitude really annoys me - who the hell has said any of the above in this thread

Not on this thread Celia, but on others. We have had 'People with SN shouldn't go to the Cinema' 'People with disabilities shouldn't be able to park in the P&T spaces if the Blue Badge ones are full.

I could go on, but its depressing.

coldwinter Sun 13-Oct-13 17:00:03

Shade - Those threads are totally wrong. But nobody on here is saying that.

SharpLily Sun 13-Oct-13 17:00:38

"Not on this thread Celia, but on others. We have had 'People with SN shouldn't go to the Cinema' 'People with disabilities shouldn't be able to park in the P&T spaces if the Blue Badge ones are full."

So the OP should get an ear bashing because this is what other people have said? biscuit

Alisvolatpropiis Sun 13-Oct-13 17:00:58

If OP had been that concerned surely she would have posted in Education rather than the most vocal board on MN?

nennypops Sun 13-Oct-13 17:01:22

I agree this is obviously a very sensitive issue but the OP wasn't insulting peoples children she was concerned with her own.

On the other hand, saying that keeping the autistic child in the classroom was solely down to "political correctness" isn't exactly supportive, is it?

coldwinter Sun 13-Oct-13 17:01:40

I think you have been extremely unfair to the OP.

CeliaFate Sun 13-Oct-13 17:02:29

"*People with SN shouldn't go to the Cinema' 'People with disabilities shouldn't be able to park in the P&T spaces if the Blue Badge ones are full."*

Those are disgusting sentiments and should be shot down.
Entirely different to this though.

Dawndonnaagain Sun 13-Oct-13 17:02:48

A child having tantrums
Now, which bit of that don't you get?

FixItUpChappie Sun 13-Oct-13 17:03:24

People angrily posting about their own children with SN have little to do with your justifiable concern over your daughter.


I don't think it's nasty, disablist or wrong for the OP to discuss that there appears to be a good amount of disruption in her DD class and to wonder what some solutions could be to improve the situation.

people aren't allowed to discuss these things then without being horrible bigots then?

I don't think YABU to discuss with the school whether things could be managed better OP.

FunkyBoldRibena Sun 13-Oct-13 17:04:53

Taking Alexa's advice would surely mean all the other children being taken out of school; which begs the question...what then? Start another school for all the students that were taken out of the class with the violent SEN kid?

coldwinter Sun 13-Oct-13 17:04:57

Dawn - I saw Pag used the phrase autistic meltdown and I use that. 20 years ago when I worked with teenagers with severe disabilities, including autism, even trainers called it tantrums. Not everyone is up to date with the current language used.

buss Sun 13-Oct-13 17:05:19

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Khaleese Sun 13-Oct-13 17:05:48

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

CeliaFate Sun 13-Oct-13 17:05:50

You're right, it's not a tantrum. It would be helpful to give a more accurate and appropriate word, Dawn so posters don't offend.

(I'm being sincere and making a genuine suggestion, tone is hard to convey here. I'm not being arsey)

TrueStory Sun 13-Oct-13 17:08:37

As someone who feels re. SN and their families lots of positive feelings (as i'm sure many accused posters, i feel really dismayed and disappointed at the intolerant and sweary response to OP's post. She is entitled to have concerns without being told to "suck it up b*****", basically. really sad to see this on such an issue.

snakeweave Sun 13-Oct-13 17:11:49

khaleese has it ever occurred to you that the children in your kid's class who have SN might also have positive characteristics and actually contribute to the class? i find it absolutely heartbreaking to hear that a child with SN is seen as a problem.

Dawndonnaagain Sun 13-Oct-13 17:12:07

I have three children on the spectrum. We use the same as Pag it's an Autistic Meltdown. It's caused by a complete overload, noise, sensory issues, fear, light. Everybody, including everybody on the Autistic Spectrum is different, each person has different triggers. I strongly suspect the school are still trying to work out what this poor child's triggers are. Hopefully, somebody, somewhere is taking note so that the child concerned can get a decent and inclusive education. I have usually found there are one or two kids in the classroom situation who have found out before the staff what the triggers are, hence the meltdowns. Bet that's not being reported back to the parent concerned, sometimes because it's not obvious, and sometimes (particularly at 11 and 12) because it's not the overwhelmingly obvious thing to report.

DontmindifIdo Sun 13-Oct-13 17:12:08

Right, so this boy is being removed from class regularly? So he only gets access to education up to that point, then is removed and the rest of the class carry on with out him? I can't see that this is working for anyone - he's regularly missing out on large chunks of his education, the other DCs are regularly missing out on large parts of their education (although not as much, still really crap), the teachers are trying to teach through distruption and the boy in question is being left in a situation that's obviously stressing him out.

However, if some TAs cope better with helping him manage his issues than others, then this might be a problem that can be fixed with better training for the TA's who can't. (or could he be exclusively supported by the TAs who are good with him...)

I'd give it until after half term if there's no obvious improvement, then talk to the school about how they are going to manage covering the work your DD is missing in classes due to distruption. failing that, I'd ask her to be moved out of the 'more able' class, she might find being in a lower set with no distruptions is better for her. (Really, you can't fight for the boy to have the correct support, all you can do is focus on getting your DD the best education you can for her, it's shit if the school isn't able to support him fully, but not something you can alter, and I don't agree the best thing for your DD long term is to put up and shut up)

Orangeanddemons Sun 13-Oct-13 17:16:25

I taught a class like this last year. The ASD kid had a support teacher in with him. If he got too bad, she took him out of class. However, mostly the rest of the class, ignored/ worked round/ helped him. His behaviour was never an issue, we all just learnt to live with it

AmberLeaf Sun 13-Oct-13 17:16:32

Those threads are totally wrong. But nobody on here is saying that

Well, it could be suggested that this is where the intolerance can start.

Some people just don't want their lives inconvenienced in any way by people with disabilities.

whois Sun 13-Oct-13 17:17:01

Oh so the OP is a shit doctor, and her daughter is a nasty gossip now? Nice.

It's a normal thing to do, to chat away to your mum about school. And you talk about things that were exciting, upsetting or unusual in preference to boring every day things. So a boy having meltdowns and hitting the teacher would def be something I'd have told my mum about. Just like i'd have told her about anything else out of the ordinary.

samu2 Sun 13-Oct-13 17:17:49


I say that as a parent of two special needs children.

I am not offended by any of the posts here and one of mine has AS. I don't think this situation is fair on the boy OR the other children.

Obviously I am very tolerant of special needs, I fight tooth and nail for my children to get the help they need this situation is hard on the other children as well and something needs to be done, if it was my child I would be saying the same too.

Linking 'This is my child' doesn't change that.

You are justified in your concern for your child, as a parent with SN children I more than accept and understand that.

However, what the answer is I do not know.

blueemerald Sun 13-Oct-13 17:19:45

I would also add that I work in a school for boys who are statemented for social, emotional and behavioural difficulties (a statement that is nearly impossible to get so these are fairly extreme cases). I teach English. In a school of disaffected and challenging teenage boys this doesn't make my subject the most popular wink however

having [meltdowns] which takes 20mins to calm down disrupting the lesson, shouting at the teacher, grabbing or hitting another child (and once a teacher), throwing all his books and stuff on the floor (numerous occasions), storming out of lessons etc etc

rarely happens. Shouting at the teacher perhaps but the other things happen perhaps once a week because we have put measures in place to help these students.

This boy needs more help than he is receiving. I see nothing wrong with pointing that out.

samu2 Sun 13-Oct-13 17:20:07

Oh and one of mine has AS so I do have experience with it.

samu2 Sun 13-Oct-13 17:20:44

sorry, I already put that.


CeliaFate Sun 13-Oct-13 17:21:04

^Exactly this.

CeliaFate Sun 13-Oct-13 17:21:39

Damn, thread moved too fast. That "Exactly this" was to blueemerald's post.

Refoca Sun 13-Oct-13 17:21:57

Sorry, not read all the posts so may be repeating something already said here...why not talk to your dd about how she could include this other child? Maybe a sense of belonging would help him adjust to the new environment, and he'd settle down sooner. Maybe tolerance and friendship would be a more important lesson than a lot of the academic lessons happening in the class.

Trust in your child and this child, it is still early in the term and they will all do well with hard work and determination.

Willshome Sun 13-Oct-13 17:22:10

If she has only just started secondary school, so has this child with special needs (I don't think an argument is helped by reducing the description to initials). And the relationship with his helper will also be new. For such a child the change in circumstances will be even more distressing than a change of school is for the general run of children. I suggest you give the situation time to settle down, and your child and the rest of them time to find their own way to handle the situation. If he is indeed very bright, he may in some respects prove a useful benchmark of attainment for all the children.

shewhowines Sun 13-Oct-13 17:32:44

Parents of children with sn,having their child's best interests at heart + parents of nt children, having their child's best interests at heart = bunfight

No one is right and no one is wrong? Unfortunately in some cases it is difficult to combine the two. But each parent has the right to be concerned about their own child.

It is difficult to be rational, but it is not difficult to see both viewpoints. I do think that there is a lot of defensiveness by parents of children with sn. Understandable because they feel attacked, but if they want understanding, then they should also understand where other parents come from, instead of attacking them. Some posters of children with sn, do manage this. Others definitely don't though.

It does work both ways

Pagwatch Sun 13-Oct-13 17:37:26

I would agree with you shewhowines with the slight proviso that some of us of parents of children with SN and parents of children who are nt.

I see this from both sides.
The problem is when parents see it in terms of the chikdren rather than the classroom structure and support.

FanjoForTheMammaries Sun 13-Oct-13 17:38:18

I am feeling very disillusioned with MN.

We are seen as irrational and saddening because we object to all the anti inclusion threads and moaning about kids with SN.

Then someone posts 'my heart sank when I heard there were kids with SN in my child's class' and this is seen as OK.

if they said their heart sank because there were black kids in their child's class there would be outrage.

I am not irrational, or just thinking about my DD, who is at special school, or bitter that my life is harder, as people like to say to try to put us back in our boxes.

I can empathize perfectly well with people too

But all this moaning about inclusion leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Oh i'm not being PC or part of the SN brigade or any of that crap either.

Am going to step away from Mn a bit until these threads die down, if they ever do.

Maybe there are people equally horrified that people are posting these threads but they aren't very much in evidence, apart from a few.


SharpLily Sun 13-Oct-13 17:39:05

"the posters on this thread who think that boy shouldn't be in that class"

If he can handle being in that class then of course he should stay there. If not, which seems to be the case here, then what is the problem with finding a more appropriate place for him? Surely the same applies whether he is special needs or not?

Were the OP to have written about the problem without mentioning special needs, no doubt everyone would say she should definitely speak to the school. Throw in an emotive issue and everyone is so desperate to show how enlightened and inclusive they are that the crux of the issue goes out the window.

The problem is not that he is special needs, the problem is classes being disrupted. That surely needs to be dealt with, no matter what the source of the problem is?

coldwinter Sun 13-Oct-13 17:41:33

Fanjo - Assuming children with SN are going to be an issue in a classroom, is wrong. Many children with SN do perfectly fine in mainstream classes.

And some who don't could do with better management and support.

But some children with SN are never going to have their needs met in a mainstream classroom, or the needs of other children. Parents should be able to choose whether mainstream or specialist provision is more suitable for their child. For many parents this choice no longer exists.

Khaleese Sun 13-Oct-13 17:41:46

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persimmon Sun 13-Oct-13 17:42:01

I'm a teacher and I wouldn't expect 11 and 12 year olds to be able to ignore what sounds like major, regular disruption. That's not a decent education.
I don't have the solution but the situation sounds untenable and you should definitely bring it up.

shewhowines Sun 13-Oct-13 17:42:45

Most people don't dare post because their views are somewhere in the middle. There is a lot of attacking and unpleasantness from both "sides".

coldwinter Sun 13-Oct-13 17:44:59

"Both sides". I am not on either side. I am for inclusion when children's needs can be met.

shewhowines Sun 13-Oct-13 17:46:27

So am I but when that breaks down, as it often does in reality, then we have the problem as described by the op.

shewhowines Sun 13-Oct-13 17:53:19

And it is a problem because all the children's needs are not being met.

shewhowines Sun 13-Oct-13 17:56:36

So it's understandable that all parents are upset. Parents of all children are right to be concerned about the impact of that on "their child". A bit of understanding and compassion from both "sides " needs to be shown. Attacking each other is not the answer, though I wish I knew what was

lionheart Sun 13-Oct-13 18:01:38

To follow on from what Orange has said, I would think that some work might be done with the other children in the classroom, OP. That they find it 'hysterical' suggests that no-one has done a thing to help them understand inclusion, or to develop empathy, compassion, etc. in this context.

It's a new school, and a big transition to make for everyone, especially this boy, so I would suggest some patience.

FanjoForTheMammaries Sun 13-Oct-13 18:02:46

I am not on a "side"

My DD is not in mainstream education.

She IS in a class with children with SN eho are more disruptive than her.

But I don't post and bitch about them.

As that would be crass

FanjoForTheMammaries Sun 13-Oct-13 18:03:17

<goes to watch telly>

CrohnicallyLurking Sun 13-Oct-13 18:05:21

If class was being 'disrupted' by shouting out, happy noises, tapping, things of that nature, then I would agree that the Nt children need to learn to tolerate and to a certain extent ignore the disruption.

However, ignoring violence? When they may justifiably fear being injured themselves at any moment?

And what about the poor boy? As I said earlier meltdowns happening that often and of that intensity indicate that his needs are not being met either.

So no one's needs are being met in that class, clearly something is not working, I see nothing wrong in suggesting that things need to change. Maybe the boy would feel more comfortable in a different class, geared towards his difficulties, with the view to reintegrating him gradually back into mainstream over the year? Maybe his TAs need more training? Maybe his teachers would benefit from training? Maybe the classroom environment needs auditing to see if there is something (eg lighting) causing him sensory overload? There are many different things that can be tried. Saying that things can't continue as they are is not that same as saying 'I don't want that boy in the same class as my DD'.

Dayshiftdoris Sun 13-Oct-13 18:09:05


You describe my son - he's currently year5

I am facing the battle, yes battle to get him to specialist provision in Secondary

Do you actually know how many places there are in THE WHOLE COUNTY in my area for children with average attainment with Autism... That's unit provision to enable them to access mainstream and eventually GCSEs whilst balancing their integration carefully to reduce sensory overload.



that's places not intake, by the way and in my county all 23 places are taken and will be for intake Sept 2014 and possibly my sons intake in Sept 2015.

I am living in hope that admission criteria for other units change in the next year or so - that will take us to 38 places which are still all full.

There is a government agenda for inclusion - whether the kids and staff can cope or not.

So easy for you to look at the situation and judge that there is somewhere better for him to be educated.... When you have absolutely no idea what the reality is out there...

I wouldn't worry OP he'll probably fail miserably in mainstream then be moved or excluded hmmhmmhmmhmm

I am usually the first to say that yes all children are entitled to an education, etc but your sweeping generalisations earlier on about there being perfectly adequate special schools really gets my goat.

PolterGoose Sun 13-Oct-13 18:11:33

Everything what Fanjo said.

There seem to be more of these threads since the 'This is my child' campaign than before.

microserf Sun 13-Oct-13 18:19:18

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Khaleese Sun 13-Oct-13 18:19:58

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roadwalker Sun 13-Oct-13 18:21:54

Same here Doris
I would love my DD to be out of mainstream and in a school that can help her develop socially
Away from the pressures of 30 kids in a small classroom, distraction and noise and the ever increasing pressure of performance
Where are these schools and who will pay
I have heard it said of my DD- she shouldnt be in school
Well where should she be then?

shewhowines Sun 13-Oct-13 18:22:07

That makes me very sad dayshift as I agree that whilst inclusion is great for some kids, it isn't always the best option for others.

Like it or not kids always pick on others with differences be it ginger hair, glasses, being above intelligence etc. None of that is right, but it happens and is difficult to rectify. I should imagine it is very difficult to balance the emotional and social needs of a sn child with that of a good education.

Each case is individual and there should be enough provision in either sn schools or mainstream, so that each parent can choose the option that is best for their own childs social and academic needs.

Dayshiftdoris Sun 13-Oct-13 18:23:06

Oh SN is a trump card...

That's why I am facing a potential legal battle to get my son the education he NEEDS confused

SunshineMMum Sun 13-Oct-13 18:23:29

YABVVU Don't you think that we parents of kids with autism wouldn't be biting the arm off of specialist provision for ours kids. It doesn't exist, you have to suffer it with along us under a system called INCLUSION, whilst we watch secondary schools champion the more academically able!

SunshineMMum Sun 13-Oct-13 18:24:14

for not of!

Morgause Sun 13-Oct-13 18:24:55

I didn't see anything contentious in your post Khaleese I hope you get an explanation from MN.

I don't think the OP is BU. Everyone wants the very best for their child and IMO should not be criticised for expressing concerns that their child's needs (whatever they are) are not being met.

Of course children need to learn to be tolerant of each other but violent behaviour in the classroom is very frightening for all children and a parent is right to be concerned about the mismanagement of such behaviour.

Lilacroses Sun 13-Oct-13 18:25:26

I agree with you Twiggy71 but judging by many of the responses on this thread this will be seen as disingenuous. Can't believe people are saying that because the OP has expressed concern for her Dd that means she isn't concerned for the young lad at all. She is concerned for her Dd and for him as far as I can see. I have taught in a highly inclusive and brilliant school for many years. When it works it works it is brilliant. Sometimes it doesn't work and it is stressful and upsetting for EVERYBODY.

PolterGoose Sun 13-Oct-13 18:26:06

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5madthings Sun 13-Oct-13 18:26:30

khaleese you said that 'your heart sank' when you heard there was a child with sn's in your child's class, that is disabilist. Hth

Lilacroses Sun 13-Oct-13 18:27:15

SunshineMMum, that is a very good point...many people probably don't realise that there isn't anywhere near the specialist provision needed.

shewhowines Sun 13-Oct-13 18:28:17

I agree lila

Good post

5madthings Sun 13-Oct-13 18:29:03

Oh it WS your second part, that was deleted, maybe because you said you knew 'they were sn due to their behavior'

They are not sn, they HAVE sn there is a difference. And a child being disruptive does not mean they have sn's.

Sparklysilversequins Sun 13-Oct-13 18:29:34

shock I am aghast at the amount of disablist threads to be found on MN at the moment. Wtf is going on?

Lilacroses Sun 13-Oct-13 18:30:09

Sorry, just saw your post DayshiftDoris.....23 places!!! That is so shocking and outrageous.

I think lionheart made an excellent point.

loveolives Sun 13-Oct-13 18:33:09

You ANBU IMO OP. I would be concerned too!

PolterGoose Sun 13-Oct-13 18:33:47

Here's a good thread all about how schools steal provision from children with disabilities, SNs and SENs.

If children with additional needs (for whatever reason) were supported properly from the beginning of their formal education, and received the support and reasonable adjustments they are entitled to by law, they wouldn't be displaying signs of severe anxiety (because that what a meltdown is) in the classroom in Y7. Well supported children whose needs are met are significantly less likely to exhibit these types of behaviours.

OneInEight Sun 13-Oct-13 18:34:21

Dayshift Doris ... 23 places - that's a heck of a lot better than our LEA which has the grand total of "0". Oh and they refuse to go out of area too!

ImperialBlether Sun 13-Oct-13 18:36:03

There's such a lot of anger on here and I find it really frightening. The OP wasn't saying anything like the things that were suggested here. She has every right to talk to her child about her child's day - to suggest that is gossiping (on either side) is really awful. Of course she has the right to stand up for her daughter and she was not suggesting this boy should be sacrificed at the alter of her daughter's learning. If half of her daughter's lesson is lost through anyone's behaviour then the school needs to look at whether the set up they have at the moment is working.

Just as an aside - if the OP sent her daughter to a private school, she wouldn't be having her classes disrupted by anyone. Those of you who send your children to private mainstream schools should think about your arguments up there - now that is discrimination.

PrincessFlirtyPants Sun 13-Oct-13 18:37:41

Wow, there really are some heartless posts on here. You do realise you are talking about a person! Someone's child?! FFS.

It really does seem that some people have no experience of SN.

I was out shopping today and there was a boy out with his grandma he quite clearly had special needs, and people were actually pointing I mean for fuck sake! Pointing!! What world do we live in. sad

SunshineMMum Sun 13-Oct-13 18:38:09

Violent meltdowns are often not always an indicator that a child cannot cope and that their needs are not being met. There are specialist interventions, such as speech and occupational therapy, but few have had anywhere near the access to these services if any. They are coping with a central nervous system which are often at screaming point, in overcrowded environments.

If people actually had a window into the world of autism/adhd and other disabilities, they would see that far from SN being a 'trump card.' parents and families are often fighting an uphill battle for their children's education and provision in life.

Pagwatch Sun 13-Oct-13 18:40:12

Anger is usually a manifestation of fear or hurt.

Pagwatch Sun 13-Oct-13 18:42:41

And we are not going to get into private schools are we?

I'm wading thought the McCann crap, the 'retard' thread and this. Private schools would tip me over the edge.

Khaleese Sun 13-Oct-13 18:43:48

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Strumpetron Sun 13-Oct-13 18:43:53

Don't tip pagwatch brew

YouTheCat Sun 13-Oct-13 18:44:54

I'd love to know where some of the people on this thread think we should send our children with additional needs?

Some of you sound like UKIP reps. hmm

Pagwatch Sun 13-Oct-13 18:45:19

Thank you Stumey smile

It's been a tricky day flowers

ImperialBlether Sun 13-Oct-13 18:46:05

The fact is that people are expecting the OP's daughter to put up with a disrupted education when a child in a private school wouldn't have to put up with it.

I have a hell of a lot of sympathy for the boy in the class who clearly isn't receiving the education he needs either. It doesn't stop me feeling for the OP's daughter, too.

morethanpotatoprints Sun 13-Oct-13 18:46:13

I think there are so many threads of this nature because clearly there is a problem. It is unhelpful to turn it into a battle of disablist comments whether founded or not.
The problem has to be with inclusion, and there are many parents who don't understand the system. When they say things like this child shouldn't be in school instead of jumping on them explain the system to them.
I H.ed my dd for several reasons one of which is the fact that school wouldn't test for dyslexia as she had average scores, this was because she was more able.
I come across so many children who mainstream education hasn't beneffited, dc with additional needs, whose parents are fighting for an education for their children. They H.ed not out of choice as I do, but because of no choice. This is wrong and needs addressing.
People need to listen to the problems other parents experience from both sides, it is the childrens interests that are most important.

Pagwatch Sun 13-Oct-13 18:47:52


That was meant to be Strumpey

I was aiming for friendly biput I just looked all doddery

Dawndonnaagain Sun 13-Oct-13 18:48:04

My Aspie son went to private school. Occasionally he disrupted a class. However, the school were aware of his needs and things were dealt with in the appropriate manner.
My dds both AS went to mainstream schools, they too have been catered for well, so it can happen in both environments.

Strumpetron Sun 13-Oct-13 18:48:15

I like Stumey grin

candycoatedwaterdrops Sun 13-Oct-13 18:48:19

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Pagwatch Sun 13-Oct-13 18:49:31

Fair enough imperial. But my children deal with their sibling their every waking moment. So perhaps you could not use that particular stick to beat me with?

PolterGoose Sun 13-Oct-13 18:49:59

I'd love to know where some of the people on this thread think we should send our children with additional needs?

Yes, where do we send our children?

I actually think children are mostly pretty inclusive, it's the parents who fuck it up. I've had parents who hate my child and have petitioned to have him removed at the same time as other parents saying how lovely he is and how much they like their chidren working with him. One child. Two totally opposing views. How?

Khaleese Sun 13-Oct-13 18:52:00

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hermioneweasley Sun 13-Oct-13 18:52:34

It sounds like a general issue (can't comment on the OP's circumstances) is a shocking lack of places in specialist provision. I have to confess ignorance on this, and when posters have pointed out the utter shortfall in places, it's shocking.

I remember a blind friend of mine telling me about her secondary education. She was mainstream for most of it, but went to a specialist 6th form. She says it was amazing, she realised what she'd been missing out on and she was quite pissed off with her parents for pushing mainstream.

It really made me wonder about the inclusion agenda, and whose benefit is it for. I think it does make kids more tolerant to be around a diverse (in all its senses) group , but are the children with SEN having their needs met?

Strumpetron Sun 13-Oct-13 18:52:51

Bloody hell.

candycoatedwaterdrops Sun 13-Oct-13 18:53:05

But you knew presumably knew nothing about these children except they had SN and yet you judged. hmm

YouTheCat Sun 13-Oct-13 18:53:54

I know of one woman who started a campaign to have a year 6 boy removed from her ds's class.

She is a vile cow. With some understanding, instead of bullying that he got from the likes of her ds, that young lad would have been fine and settled down.

Dawndonnaagain Sun 13-Oct-13 18:54:11

Khaleese not all children with additional needs are like that, are they? In fact it's really quite rare.

Mumzy Sun 13-Oct-13 18:54:15

OP YANBU I have been in your position and it did affect my ds2 learning and happiness in school when a child with SN who sat next to him was very disruptive in class. I had a quiet word with his teacher who told me he was glad I said something because he hadn't realised the full effect it was having on ds2. The teacher put in some interventions and got extra adult support for her. it improved the situation greatly. It's worth saying something as the school may not be aware of the full impact it's having on other children

hermioneweasley Sun 13-Oct-13 18:54:55

Khaleese, that last post is beyond appalling and I have reported.

Strumpetron Sun 13-Oct-13 18:56:14

Khaleese I haven't found offence in any of these posts but that was just... wow.

nkf Sun 13-Oct-13 18:56:32

Work through disruption. Are you mad? What if the teacher is in the middle of explaining the task? And he or she has to stop to deal with the disruption? The task doesn't get explained, the children don't know how to do it and time is wasted. Or the teacher or TA is working with a small group, clarifying information and, you know, teaching. And they have to stop and deal with the disruption. It's not fair and nobody benefits.

Schools work best when the majority are on board with its purpose. That way and that way only can the needs of the individual be met. If you start with the individual, particularly with the disruptive individual, nobody benefits.

lougle Sun 13-Oct-13 18:56:40

It shouldn't have to get this heated.

The question is: AIBU to think this is very disruptive.

The answer is: YANBU but it's not necessarily about the child.

The fairest, only, way to view this situation is that X is not having his needs met. It doesn't mean that the school is in the wrong, necessarily. The school will only just have met X and may need some time to come up with a better plan. It may be that the way X presented in Primary school was different and he isn't coping with the Secondary system, yet.

It may take another few weeks to get things settled.

It's not unreasonable of the OP to be unsettled by the effect this may have on her DD, either. She has a right to an efficient education. An efficient education is not one which is disrupted and half the lesson is lost.

The problem with this thread is that the disruption is being attributed to the boy himself and not the provision he has been given.

DD1 was highly disruptive in MS preschool, despite 1:1. Now, in special school she is considered a 'dream child' and a SW actually said 'I wonder why she's at SS?' The reason for that is that her needs are being met, so she doesn't react as she used to.

YouTheCat Sun 13-Oct-13 18:56:42

Khaleese, I know more NT children who steal and lie than children with additional needs.

How very judgemental. DO you realise with some care and understanding from classmates and staff, most children in mainstream can achieve well.

CeliaFate Sun 13-Oct-13 18:56:53

I have reported that post too, Khaleese. I'm appalled at your hurtful and inaccurate generalisation.

Dawndonnaagain Sun 13-Oct-13 18:58:34

but are the children with SEN having their needs met?
This is usually what is discussed when the idea is to move those with additional needs out of mainstream education.
The answer is, in the majority of cases, yes.

IsabelleRinging Sun 13-Oct-13 18:58:40

Report KHaleese as that was just beyond the pale.

candycoatedwaterdrops Sun 13-Oct-13 18:58:44

I wish MN didn't delete reported posts, just commented underneath them that they break T&C, so everyone can see what arsey comments some people make. angry

ImperialBlether Sun 13-Oct-13 18:58:58

Pagwatch, I wasn't referring to you at all and I'm sorry if you thought I was.

Whenever there's a thread on here about private schools there are a hell of a lot of people who say they would send their children to a private school if they had the money. I was just trying to point out they were hoping for something that the OP was hoping for too. The OP's daughter's classroom situation didn't seem to be benefiting anyone and I don't think she was being unreasonable.

lougle Sun 13-Oct-13 18:59:28

I think Khaleese was trying to say that SN is a red herring - any disruption would be a concern for her. Badly worded, but there you go.

alistron1 Sun 13-Oct-13 19:02:49

I think that you are only a few weeks into Y7 - as is this boy. For NT kids transition is traumatic, throw in SN and it's going to take time for him to get used to the school, and for them to manage his needs.

It does sound like the school are doing all they can at this point. I bet things will settle down.

SunshineMMum Sun 13-Oct-13 19:04:32

Could somebody just direct me to the holy grail of 'somewhere else' because I'd like to book a place there for DS tomorrow. Next we will have the 'I blame the parents', it's all down to crap diets, too much tv/computer games and general disinterest/ neglect wink

PrincessFlirtyPants Sun 13-Oct-13 19:04:56

Whoah, Khaleese. That was a disgusting post to make, most definitely reported.

Pagwatch Sun 13-Oct-13 19:05:35

It's ok Imperial.
I understand the point you were making.


Retroformica Sun 13-Oct-13 19:06:01

If he is autistic, getting to grips with all the change of a new school could be quite a big thing. Will take time.

If he has an assistant, they will be taking the brunt of any disruptive behaviour. If lessons are truly being disrupted constantly, it's best to raise the issue with the head. All the children including the boy with SN will need a more productive environment.

Retroformica Sun 13-Oct-13 19:13:15

I think it's ridiculous to expect kids to work through disruption by the way.

I think the boys needs are not being met. The other students needs are not being met either. Im sure with a little thought there will be a win win solution. May involve thinking out of the box though!

Ledkr Sun 13-Oct-13 19:13:27

khaleese you do realise that you have done serious misconceptions don't you?
I have also reported that horrible outburst.

lougle Sun 13-Oct-13 19:15:06

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nkf Sun 13-Oct-13 19:17:25

The things people think are acceptable. Shouting out. Shouting out!!! When another child is talking? Or the teacher is talking? No way. It won't work.

ImperialBlether Sun 13-Oct-13 19:18:06

Me too.

I wonder whether the boy is having difficulties because every class is held in a different room in secondary school. I know the ASD students I teach are always concerned about the class being held in the same room at exactly the same time; I was told quite firmly by one girl that she didn't like change and it would set her back if we changed rooms. I have to admit I panicked inside because my boss is a bugger for changing rooms round during the first half term.

nkf Sun 13-Oct-13 19:20:02

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SunshineMMum Sun 13-Oct-13 19:20:41

nfk 'Echolalia is the automatic repetition of vocalizations made by another person. It is closely related to echopraxia, the automatic repetition of movements made by another person; both are "subsets of imitative behavior" whereby sounds or actions are imitated "without explicit awareness".[1] Echolalia may be an immediate reaction to a stimulus or may be delayed.[1]'

lisalisa Sun 13-Oct-13 19:22:25

one of my close friends has a ds with autism. Having seen him through primary school he now does not believe in inclusion. Although his son is very bright he is non verbal and has a wide range of what they call behaviours that need constantly channelling and dealing with . As thjis friend says " what use is it teaching him advanced maths if he can't ask for a drink of water?" he is now looking at secondary schools and despairing.

All he wants for his son is that he shold be able to take care of his basic needs - to be verbal enough to articulate when he feels unwell and to be able to look after eventaully his own hygeine and domestic needs. " Do I want him learning french and scienece?" Of course not - I want him in a special school which will try and teach him essential life skills as well as how to try for form some basic relationships and respond to peoople.

He says inclusion is bound to fail as the autistic child is in an environment at all day which is not exclusivbely catering for their needs and is therefore frustatring and counter productive.

This boy is currently in my dd's class and goes to school maybe one qarter of the day assisted by a specailist hleper. He says it was easier when his son was young and he went to school for most of the day but now it is getting less and less as he finds the evironment harder and harder. I have to say howver thta the class were brilliant with him - he was invited to all parties and he attended most with his parents or a helper. He was always included in games and school shows and other activities and all the other children genuinely - and I mean genuinely - love him and understand his difficulties. I have never ever heard the children say one bad word about him ( lathough they say plenty about eachother!)

sugarman Sun 13-Oct-13 19:22:55

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nkf Sun 13-Oct-13 19:23:38

Thank you. My point is that shouting out will disrupt teaching and learning.

Dawndonnaagain Sun 13-Oct-13 19:25:38

Damnit, my dd has Aspergers, Tourettes, Echolalia. She did get A* for her GCSEs, should I ensure she is removed from her current classroom nfk the one in which she will probably get A* for her A levels, too?

YouTheCat Sun 13-Oct-13 19:27:12

So, back to my question - if you think that is too much disruption where do you suggest that boy goes to school? Or should he just not be entitled to an education?

nkf Sun 13-Oct-13 19:27:54

If it's managed and it works for her and it doesn't disrupt the learning of others, why would you?

My point was aimed at the people who think that children should learn to work through disruption. I think that is unfair.

YouTheCat Sun 13-Oct-13 19:29:29

I think it's unfair that that young man will have very many fewer options educationally than a NT child.

That is what is unfair.

TheBuskersDog Sun 13-Oct-13 19:29:54

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Alisvolatpropiis Sun 13-Oct-13 19:31:02

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Dayshiftdoris Sun 13-Oct-13 19:31:22

Whether that child was academically able to be in the class.

Having issues with social interaction is one of the triad of impairment which makes up autism. Most children on the spectrum are not disruptive but they are certainly not 'socially competent'

Therefore your DD's school is discriminating with their lesson for nice, clever children.

Alls fair in love, war and education

SunshineMMum Sun 13-Oct-13 19:31:33

So nfk given the holy grail of somewhere else doesn't exist, give me your strategies for these kids, detention? work in isolation? And how does provision for my child differ from that for those with physical disabilities?? I work around the clock to help him fit into a system that isn't shaped to fir him. One to one help with every aspect of homework, which more able children can do with no assistance, jumping through hoops, to get him to the SAT standard (or not) that the school requires.

nkf Sun 13-Oct-13 19:31:53

I thought the behaviours listed were taken from the OP but maybe I misread it.

Dayshiftdoris Sun 13-Oct-13 19:32:03

My last post aimed at Sugarman

nkf Sun 13-Oct-13 19:33:16

I don't know. I don't know anyone who does. I just don't think insisting that children should work through disruption is a strategy.

candycoatedwaterdrops Sun 13-Oct-13 19:33:38

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lougle Sun 13-Oct-13 19:34:02

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nkf Sun 13-Oct-13 19:34:43

I didn't read that post. I only read the one with the list. I agree that's a terrible thing to say.

lougle Sun 13-Oct-13 19:35:37

A child being black will have no direct effect on her child's education. A child with SN may do if the support is inadequate.

sugarman Sun 13-Oct-13 19:35:49

daydoris no discrimination. In fact they are at the forefront of education. social competency is considered more important than academic achievement in leading schools.

YouTheCat Sun 13-Oct-13 19:37:23

I overheard (couldn't help it as she was an awful, loud, gobby shite) a woman on the metro complaining to her friend that she was really fucked off that they'd let a child with a disability in her dd's nursery class because she didn't want her child to 'catch retarded'. angry

She was bloody lucky the train was packed because my ex and I wanted to 'educate' her, quite vehemently.

SunshineMMum Sun 13-Oct-13 19:37:25

so, we don't know how to solve a problem, but it shouldn't be happening and isn't acceptable, great answer!

nkf Sun 13-Oct-13 19:37:54

Sorry to disappoint.

YouTheCat Sun 13-Oct-13 19:38:56

That is discrimination, sugarman. A child with autism may well lack 'social competency' but might well wipe the floor with these 'gifted' children, academically.

Dawndonnaagain Sun 13-Oct-13 19:39:20

If it's managed and it works for her and it doesn't disrupt the learning of others, why would you?
Initially it did disrupt things. They've got used to it now, and because she is more relaxed, it doesn't happen as often. It was down to people giving her a chance and the fact that here and now we have inclusive education which is not, thank goodness up to the likes of Farage and his very obvious followers on here.

Alisvolatpropiis Sun 13-Oct-13 19:40:18


I didn't mean the deleted post, I didn't see it before it was deleted. I meant the one with the list. Which I was hoping was just badly worded. Maybe not though.

I don't have children yet. I have no idea what the future holds, they may be NT or have SN or could be NT and then after an illness/accident have SN. Anything could happen.

I hope that by the time any future children of mine start school there is more understanding, support and compassion for children with any SN. It seems woefully lacking.

Coldlightofday Sun 13-Oct-13 19:40:48

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SunshineMMum Sun 13-Oct-13 19:43:23
nkf Sun 13-Oct-13 19:43:29

I would have expected that a child who hit another child or a teacher would be excluded. For at least a day. And would be put on a closely monitored behaviour programme before coming back to school. It probably is happening. There is no reason for the OP's daughter to know if it is.

candycoatedwaterdrops Sun 13-Oct-13 19:44:32

The world is made up of so many different people. School is a microcosm of the real world. Children need to learn to live side-by-side with people from all walks of life. One day your child who is "disrupted" in the classroom, may very well be on a bus that's delayed because the bus driver had trouble getting the ramp down on a busy rush hour bus. I was on that bus and was horrified by the comments from suited and booted grown adults who muttered at the perceived inconvenience due to a person who was a wheelchair user. Perhaps they weren't taught as children to accept all sorts of people in the world.

Dayshiftdoris Sun 13-Oct-13 19:45:02

I challenge EVERYONE on this thread to write to their schools and their local MPs tomorrow and share their views

Because what everyone is seeming to agree on is that inclusion is not working as it was thought it would. Children are being affected adversely by the policy of inclusion, both with and without SEN.

Yet the funny thing is our Government think we need MORE integration and inclusion... Hence why my counties have 23 places for ASD children with provision closing and why other posters say they have none.

Given the fact that this thread has near on 300 messages in 4hrs it seems to me there is a strength of opinion that needs sharing with the powers that be.

Of Course you could just leave the battle for decent SEN provision to us parents it actually affects but you run the risk that our 13% of voices will not be heard because we have personal battles to fight for every scrap of our children's provision and we are so knackered we cant hope to find the energy.
But then if you turn your back you accept the situation for what it is and stop bloody griping about it...

PrincessFlirtyPants Sun 13-Oct-13 19:45:05

YouTheCat WTF???? I mean really, WTF!!!!!!

YouTheCat Sun 13-Oct-13 19:46:34

I know, I was raging.

nkf Sun 13-Oct-13 19:47:00

Being momentarily held up on the bus is nothing. Anyone who frets about that is an intolerant and unpleasant. But, for most children, school is their one shot at an education. And anything that disrupts that has to be seen as a problem.

Alisvolatpropiis Sun 13-Oct-13 19:48:06


You did well not to elbow people out of the way to throttle that woman. How appalling! angry

PrincessFlirtyPants Sun 13-Oct-13 19:48:24

I'm not surprised. It's ruling outrageous that someone would say that, it's 2013!!! shock doesn't even cover it!

Mumoftwoyoungkids Sun 13-Oct-13 19:48:27

Before we build the fire to burn her on I wonder if Khaleese meant that those are the traits of those particular children. Not the traits of all children with special needs?

It seems to me that the school is failing everyone but particularly the poor lad who is obviously seriously distressed and missing out on significant amounts of his education.

The problem with secondary school is it is often very "un joined up". So if over the 6 weeks of term he has had 3 meltdowns in maths, 2 in French, one in PE, 2 in drama etc etc then it may be (especially if some of the teachers / TAs keep quiet about them because they wonder if they are at fault) that no one has realised that that means that he is having a meltdown most days.

I remember when I was at school thinking "FFS - get out of X's face" at my history teacher when I was in Y7. He was giving off signals that I, as someone who spent 6 hours a day with him, could spot a mile away. I also knew that he'd been upset in science as his experiment had gone wrong. The history teacher - who spent two 35 minute lessons a week with him and was a bit rubbish - had no clue and so was upsetting him more and more by "encouraging him to contribute". As far as he was concerned the horrible scene where X tipped over his desk and ran out the room came from nowhere.

SallyBear Sun 13-Oct-13 19:48:41

IME - The majority of yr7 kids at my twins Academy tend to be quite ridiculous in the first term of Yr 7, coming from many little primary schools where they'd had one teacher and very little change to contend with. I suspect that the boy in question is struggling with the changes of classrooms, environment, huge amounts of students, routines and different teachers and TAs. What the OP fails to appreciate that though this child's behaviour may indeed be aggressive, there will be plenty of other little darlings who are also hitting out because of the little fish big pond scenario and they don't have a TA or a diagnosis or SN.

Dawndonnaagain Sun 13-Oct-13 19:49:22

Alternatively nfk the disruption could be seen as a learning opportunity. That, I think, was the point being made. hmm

PrincessFlirtyPants Sun 13-Oct-13 19:49:54


I do not even know where auto correct got 'ruling' from

Dawndonnaagain Sun 13-Oct-13 19:50:05

(Presumes our children are not to be afforded 'one shot at education').

SunshineMMum Sun 13-Oct-13 19:51:08

Absolutely well said Doris. Please also ask your MP to lobby for early intervention services so that these children are given the platform of speech and language, sensory and social communication strategies, that NT children take for granted. If we enable these children, before they reach secondary school, or provide provision for those who simply cannot cope, they have half a chance at integration.

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

nkf Sun 13-Oct-13 19:52:56

And that is the point I don't agree with. Anyway, I'm uncomfortable with the idea that some children have a role teaching other children about tolerance. Just by virtue of being there. I find that attitude patronising. I think school is where children go to learn. And loud noisy disruptive lessons are not conducive to learning.

PrincessFlirtyPants Sun 13-Oct-13 19:53:00

But nfk there are lots of 'disruptions' to education. Schools being used as polling stations/teachers strikes/sickness.

This is an opportunity to show tolerance, compassion and understanding. A life skill that no child or adult should be without.

Strumpetron Sun 13-Oct-13 19:54:15

Good post moominleigh

nkf Sun 13-Oct-13 19:55:44

Dawn, I said no such thing. When I say children need to be able to learn, I'm including all children. All of them. I just don't believe that children should have to work through disruption.

And I posted before I could make my last point -

- Obviously the answer is more schools who specialise in those with high-functioning disorders (I really hope no-one minds me saying "disorder", the words seem to change every day so I mean no offence with anything I've said). It's obvious that the boy is very bright, and needs to be somewhere where he can receive the same education as he'd be receiving in this class - but with staff who can give 1:1 care (I know he has his TA but they're clearly struggling), and maybe in a smaller class that isn't so overwhelming or triggering to his disorder.

The problem for all involved is that there aren't more of these available. It's a shit situation for everyone involved, but again - it's reasonable for people to be concerned about the welfare of their own children, whether they have SN or not. What isn't reasonable is encouraging intolerance by creating an "us and them" situation, whether that's by implying that all people with SN/AEN (as I say, the terminology seems to change so often) are disruptive and violent, or by insisting that the needs of people with SN need to be given priority over the needs of people without. Equality is never reached.

nkf Sun 13-Oct-13 19:59:15

Yes, okay. You're right. Polling stations once every five years. Disruptive lessons most days. The same thing. Bring it all on. Who cares? They can learn to work through it.

Some kids will. Some kids would stay focused if the roof fell in. But not all. It sounds as if the children in the OP's class are enjoying the disruption. That;s understandable. They're only kids after all.

Some kids won't though. Some need order and calm and quiet and throwing and shouting will derail their learning.

SunshineMMum Sun 13-Oct-13 19:59:39

Moomin there is no mass flocking, no bun fight, just the individual opinions of parents of children with SN/disability wishing to answer this;

'I know he has just as much right to be taught, but at the cost of disrupting a whole class of children? AIBU?? I can't quite decide TBH, and so far it doesn't appear to be affecting DD1's abilities, but we are only a term in.'

We are the only advocates for children who cannot argue for themselves and I am sick to death of navigating a system which is woefully flawed, whilst dealing with this kind of prejudice in real life.

FanjoForTheMammaries Sun 13-Oct-13 20:00:17

It's super patronising and insulting to say that people just see "SN" and start hysterically bunfighting.

And belittling of people's real feelings.

Cant believe people are applauding that sort of patronising telling off.

Definitely right for me to step back.

lionheart Sun 13-Oct-13 20:00:58

Well said DSD.

Sunshine maybe that's your opinion, but I've read the thread in its entirety and several posters - on both sides, I'm not particularly affiliated with either - seem intent to just insult and throw names about at other posters.

The majority of posts have been justified and well-spoken on both sides, it's just the vocal minority making it seem worse than it is. I know what you're saying, but - again, taking Alexa as an example - some of the things she was saying were cruel and unnecessary towards the OP's daughter, when the daughter doesn't seem to have said anything cruel about the boy, and I just don't think that's fair.

Alisvolatpropiis Sun 13-Oct-13 20:04:05

As I said in my last post moomin I am not a parent yet at all.

So I have no "vested interest" either way so to speak.

However I really dislike the way people speak about and treat children and adults with SN's/disabilities. So many people seem to lack the awareness that just because a person is born NT and physically able doesn't mean it will stay that way. An illness or accident could change everything. And then you're on the other side of fence feeling ashamed of your old attitude.

RhondaJean Sun 13-Oct-13 20:06:32

Can I ask a serious question?

If this was my son, I don't think I would want him to be in that classroom. Not when he was being so stressed. He is obviously not getting the best and most appropriate education for him, is he? For the parents who have SN children, what would be the best resolution to this situation from your point of view?

Fanjo again, jumping to conclusions. I'm not telling off or patronising, just giving my opinion - if you're entitled to do so, why aren't I? I didn't say everyone was doing it, I said a number of posters seemed to have just flocked in to throw insults and suggest that the OP had personally offended them - again, ON BOTH SIDES. The posters who did it all seem to have disappeared, but people are taking my comments as personal insults.

I'm a carer so I know how it feels to see comments being made and want to step in and call names and say "How would you feel?", but I realise too that there's no reasoning with people who have no experience of discrimination - first or second hand - and arguing will only make me angrier, and the next time I see a post, I'll go in all guns blazing again. Taking a step back and realising that these people need to be left to being small minded, because they'll fuck up some day and realise just what an idiot they were, is the only way I manage to keep my blood pressure normal hmm

AlexaChelsea Sun 13-Oct-13 20:06:59

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

FanjoForTheMammaries Sun 13-Oct-13 20:07:50

Moomin..implying people just fancy a bunfight is really dismissive of the fact they were hurt by the thread and comments on it.

And I said before not on DD is in special school.

It's insulting to say people just see words 'SN' and for a fight. Do try to empathise a bit

coldwinter Sun 13-Oct-13 20:08:03

I hate the assumptions been made. I am disabled, I do understand about discrimination.

Mumoftwoyoungkids Sun 13-Oct-13 20:08:33

Agree with moomin. Some of the things said about the Op's daughter - "she a gossip", "she's intolerant", "she should be able to work through disruption" are pretty unpleasant.

This is a 12 year old child!

AlexaChelsea Sun 13-Oct-13 20:08:37

If it's coming across as really nasty I do apologise. It's just a big trigger for me, after years spent listening to other children laugh and joke about the 'funny' hinges my DS had done.

SunshineMMum Sun 13-Oct-13 20:08:46

So tackle the individuals, there is a tendency to refer to the 'us and them' contingent, that seems to come up with every thread about special needs children. We are as passionately committed to our child's education as any other parent. The fact that the OP has referred to an implied disability, does not sit easily with me. I am equally dismayed by the reference of number of special needs children in classes. Ds is one of ten in each class. All of the children have to co exist and these opinions or prejudices filter from parent to child.

Trust me Alis, I know. Not SN, but bereavement, disability and mental illness. People think they're so fucking untouchable that they can laugh, belittle and patronise others, until it happens to them. Worst thing is, sometimes they just think it gives them even more right to carry on belittling others.

People are shits sometimes sad times like these I remember why I don't get into serious threads. Feelings are bad.

FanjoForTheMammaries Sun 13-Oct-13 20:10:34

No I am not jumping to conclusions.

I will not be told off like a child and accused of just bunfighting is all.

People always do that and it's really unfair to people who are genuinely hurt on these threads.

SunshineMMum Sun 13-Oct-13 20:11:04

... and OP's daughter may not be a gossip, but she is drip feeding back on the child in question.

nkf Sun 13-Oct-13 20:11:41

The thing is, at age 11, parents are the only advocate any child has. If she is in this special group and all the children are taught together all day long, it could end up pretty miserable if the situation isn't resolved. And nobody will learn much. It might get resolved. Lots can change. But, as a parent, I would expect to hear about it from my Year 7 child.

FanjoForTheMammaries Sun 13-Oct-13 20:12:29

I x posted. I see your point more now.

Fair enough abusive posts are out of order. .and should be deleted.

But a group of posters...not necessarily being you..always comes along and belittles the views of posters with children with SN as some "hysterical SN brigade" and it gets wearing.

In which case I'm sorry Alexa, I thought you were being serious about the OP's daughter moving schools.

As I've drip-fed blush in my comments, I understand watching someone you love beyond everything facing discrimination and discomfort and name-calling and so much more, and being unable to stand up for themselves. I think my original post was badly-worded and I apologise if it came across as patronising or offensive. From my (biased) viewpoint, it seemed like some posters were intent on causing an argument - but it might be skewed from times I've gone into a debate and been told the same, when really I've been so desperate to defend people. Like I said, it's why I avoid debates about serious stuff usually hmm

Again, I can only apologise.

RhondaJean Sun 13-Oct-13 20:12:38

Hold your horses one cotton picking minute.

Are some of you seriously criticising the ops 12 year old daughter for telling her mother what is going on during her day?

AlexaChelsea Sun 13-Oct-13 20:13:49

I agree. I would expect a 12yo to tell me this, if it formed a part of their day. Why not. I do apologise for using the word gossip, that was unfair.

I do think she needs to be taught more tolerance though, that the SN boy did something noteworthy shouldn't be the subject of hilarity.

FanjoForTheMammaries Sun 13-Oct-13 20:15:23

Moomin thanks

Trust me Fanjo, this is the first.... and probably last blush... time I'll enter any sort of debate, particularly one on such a sensitive topic. Like I say, my original post was worded badly - on first reading of the thread, it really did seem like people just saw the words SN and flocked in to attack, but on re-reading a few posts... and stopping and thinking about why I stopped posting about my own experiences... I realised that I can understand why you came to the post, to speak to the OP and to give her the viewpoint that the parents of this boy might have, and to give balance to the thread.

As I've said before, sorry to anyone I've offended. I'm more than happy to apologise.

AlexaChelsea Sun 13-Oct-13 20:17:16

Moomin thanks

I am the same. I am happy to apologise and again, will say I should not have called her daughter a gossip. I don't know her, and that was unfair.

FanjoForTheMammaries Sun 13-Oct-13 20:17:39

No offence taken here smile

SunshineMMum Sun 13-Oct-13 20:18:55

Yes, I think that twelve year old children and their parents are more than capable of prejudice and comments about special needs children.

SunshineMMum Sun 13-Oct-13 20:20:58

And thank you for apologising Moomin, the tone of your thread has encouraged those more than willing to put the boot in!

Dayshiftdoris Sun 13-Oct-13 20:25:04

I was only narked that there was a perception that there is a vast array of provision for 'these' kids... And there is not.

It's all about inclusion whether we like it or not

Mumoftwoyoungkids Sun 13-Oct-13 20:25:14

Alexa I read it as the thing that causes hilarity is the fact that they all get to have a bit of a skive while the teacher is trying to deal with the issue.

The secondary school day is very intense and a shock when you start Y7. I can remember being incredibly gleeful about a fire alarm that turned out to be an actual (very small) fire. I can remember walking down five flights of stairs and someone saying "I can smell smoke" and us all cheering as there was no way we'd be back in time for the French test now.

This was pre 9/11 days and it didn't occur to any of us that smelling smoke when still 4 floors up was not a good thing. hmm

PolterGoose Sun 13-Oct-13 20:25:56

RhondaJean you said

Can I ask a serious question?

If this was my son, I don't think I would want him to be in that classroom. Not when he was being so stressed. He is obviously not getting the best and most appropriate education for him, is he? For the parents who have SN children, what would be the best resolution to this situation from your point of view?

I have a child who suffers extreme anxiety and has been aggressive in school in the past, less now. What works is when school provide the support they know works, that has been recommended by professionals and that they are funded to provide. What happens in reality is the support slips, the teacher forgets to do stuff, the TA goes off to deal with another child, then my ds crumbles, it takes time to repair him every time this happens, probably once a term I have to remind school of their duties and obligations. This happens all the time, with many children, support in place, child starts to manage, support slips because the child is seen to be coping, everyone forgets that the child is only coping because of the support.

AlexaChelsea Sun 13-Oct-13 20:30:00

'But every single day, she is coming home with stories of what "X" has done. Thinks like having tantrum, which takes 20mins to calm down disrupting the lesson, shouting at the teacher, grabbing or hitting another child (and once a teacher), throwing all his books and stuff on the floor (numerous occasions), storming out of lessons etc etc.
Now the kids all seem to think this is hysterical'


That. Without question, implies that the kids think the behaviour is hysterical, not the fact they are getting a skive.

It's horrible, intolerant, and very triggering.

I totally don't get your fire alarm analogy but I'm probably being a bit thick grin

sweetmelissa Sun 13-Oct-13 20:31:51

RhondaJean what an interesting and insightful question.

I guess every parent of a child with special needs is different, just as every child is. In my case I had three adopted children whose needs were not being met by mainstream school (one of whom was probably disturbing the education of others, one of whom sat in the back of the class silently and never learnt a thing).

The system, the damn system insisted on inclusion, inclusion, inclusion, which sadly did not work for anyone, my children or the others in their class. In our case once the school had exhausted all the help it could give and all the local education authority could give, we took things into our own hands. As I described earlier one child, whose needs ironically were the most severe, we spent seven years trying to get him a rare place at a school that could meet his needs. We provided our own evidence, employed our own professionals, and eventually took the LA to court...and won. He was then immediately transferred him to the appropriate school and his life began. The second child we did the same, only knowing the system it took less time, and the third child we removed from his school completely ourselves because it was having a terrible/horrific effect on him. When the boys were in mainstream education they too had a terrible time - had no friends probably because they were 'too desperate' to make friends and be kind, could not take part in any extra curricular activities, were never asked to anyone's house to play or to a party. Teachers found the boys like marmite - very often a teacher would adore one twin but be unable to handle the other. I am sure they would have disrupted the education of others, but as the parents of children with special needs we were also left out and made no friends at the school gate - I do know we were referred to as the 'mental family'. I should say at the same time we had children without special needs so we could see the other side too.

I now foster teenagers and unfortunately have found the system has got even worse over the years.

Boobybeau Sun 13-Oct-13 20:36:12

doris your previous post really hit the spot. I truly hope everyone goes back and reads it as its superb and is what we should all be doing for the sake of all our children's education, SN or not. It seems that the consensus is that the noone is benefitting from the current arrangement but unfortunately there just arent enough SN provisions. It's up to everyone to make a stand on this, not just the exhausted parents of children with SN

PrincessFlirtyPants Sun 13-Oct-13 20:36:13

When the boys were in mainstream education they too had a terrible time - had no friends probably because they were 'too desperate' to make friends and be kind, could not take part in any extra curricular activities, were never asked to anyone's house to play or to a party.

That is just heartbreaking. sad

zzzzz Sun 13-Oct-13 20:36:36

SS can cost £50000 a year or more. I think it's in all of our interests to make inclusion work.

The child has earned his place in the class based on his academic ability. The behaviour resulting from disability is no more reason to exclude him than if he smelt because of some gastric problem. Yes it is less than ideal, but most people with some compassion could get over it.

If the daughter was coming home talking about how many spots the child with acne had or how long it took the child with the stutter to answer, her mother would tell her it wasn't interesting and ask about other parts of her day. It is no different just out of most people's experience, because in previous generations people failed to see the child behind the behaviour and saw only "different" and excluded.

I despaired at how often this has to be explained. Children with disabilities are massively disadvantaged. They have the same right to be anywhere that you or yours do.

Mumoftwoyoungkids Sun 13-Oct-13 20:38:05

You may be trying to get more out of it than it is worth! My basic point is:- kids like to skive.

nkf Sun 13-Oct-13 20:39:31

I always find it interesting how differently people interpret posts. That description of the kids finding it "hysterical" - I read it as a group of young children enjoying the drama. Some will find it scary, some will enjoy it, some will be annoyed. I don't think there is necessarily anything mean about it. They may like the disruptive student very much. Sometimes disruptive students are actually quite popular with their peers. It can be a negative sort of popularity but it exists. But, whatever is going on, it needs to be stopped. For everyone's sake.

marriedinwhiteisback Sun 13-Oct-13 20:39:56

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

YouTheCat Sun 13-Oct-13 20:40:19

Sweetmelissa, the system is an absolute shambles.

Even getting a statement is nigh on impossible these days.

nkf Sun 13-Oct-13 20:40:54

How are spots the same as disruptive behaviour?

PresidentServalan Sun 13-Oct-13 20:41:39

YANBU - it's not something that can be solved easily but the other 29 children are not less important than the one child - they all have the right to be educated.

PolterGoose Sun 13-Oct-13 20:41:59

School is perhaps 13 years of a person's life, we need to get inclusion right before adulthood because we do all have to live together, work together, shop and play together in the 60+ years of adulthood.

SunshineMMum Sun 13-Oct-13 20:42:52

Lucky you married, I don't know what else to say to that hmm

AmberLeaf Sun 13-Oct-13 20:44:52

If this was my son, I don't think I would want him to be in that classroom. Not when he was being so stressed. He is obviously not getting the best and most appropriate education for him, is he? For the parents who have SN children, what would be the best resolution to this situation from your point of view?

Something that isn't going to happen any time soon tbh.

This will probably be my son this time next year, except minus the 1-1 support as he doesn't have a statement.

There aren't enough places in SSs for children like this, there aren't enough places for children like him who are capable of achieving well academically but who need support.

AmberLeaf Sun 13-Oct-13 20:47:45

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YouTheCat Sun 13-Oct-13 20:49:02

Amber, there aren't enough places for those children who aren't capable of achieving academically either.

There just aren't enough places fullstop.

RhondaJean Sun 13-Oct-13 20:49:37

Thank you for your answers.

There is no easy solution, I can see that. Melissa, your post in particular moved me almost to tears there.

Can I just say that even nt teenage brains are hard wired to be self centred and not necessarily think about others before themselves, and this is just a normal and necessary (and bloody exasperating) part of parenting teenagers. I don't think it's fair to attack the 12 yo dd or the rest of the class here. Yes you can try to teach them compassion and to some extend you will succeed but I don't think they will really GET it until their own brains mature.

I'm also all for inclusion and integration but there has to be a point where trying to enforce it is not serving the best interests of anyone, as Melissa described. Polter tells of a nightmare situation where when things improve the support that made it better is taken and there's a complete circle going on.

I wonder if a half way house, with inclusion in some classes and at other times separate in order to reduce over stimulation would help everyone - the SN child might be better equipped to deal with shorter periods in the full class and the nt children would get a chance to know them when they aren't completely stressed out which might help with making friends?

I am sorry so many of you have had such bad experiences and had to fight so hard for your children.

AmberLeaf Sun 13-Oct-13 20:50:09

Oh I know YouTheCat.

But children like mine with few issues with academic attainment are at the bottom of a very big pile.

Coldlightofday Sun 13-Oct-13 20:50:10

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

sweetmelissa Sun 13-Oct-13 20:50:41

PolterGoose - you are so very correct. Education aside, I know the lack of socialisation/friendships my children had during their school years, has lead to HUGE problems in adulthood and left them very vulnerable to abuse.

FanjoForTheMammaries Sun 13-Oct-13 20:51:52

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blueemerald Sun 13-Oct-13 20:53:00

For god's sake, this boy is suffering! It is not (only) the DD's education being sacrificed on the alter of inclusion but also this boy's education, mental health, self esteem, physical well being, social well being, relationship with family (don't think he's going home from this daily horrendous experience and not taking it out on those at home) and so on and so on.

People trying to out politically correct each other are not helping this child. I, given the power, would put this child on a part time timetable from tomorrow with him going to his favourite lessons and working with a TA 1-1 otherwise, including working on what he needs to succeed in the classroom and a plan to build back up to full time.

Coldlightofday Sun 13-Oct-13 20:53:09

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

marriedinwhiteisback Sun 13-Oct-13 20:53:26

SunshineMMum what don't you know what to say. Do you mean you don't think children with SN should have much better access to those who are fully qualified to meet their needs either within or outside the mainstream. Do you mean you wouldn't be prepared to pay more tax to ensure they have better specialist services? Do you mean that you want all children to suffer because services for those with SN is woefully under resourced and inappropriately organised at present.

I don't know if the children in my dd's state school class had special needs or not - I only know that they were uncontrollable, badly behaved and entirely disruptive. There was little the school could do. It was ludicrous and it was wrong that a hard core of five or six were allowed to consistently disrupt, bully and ensure that the majority could not achieve their potential.

YouTheCat Sun 13-Oct-13 20:53:29

That is true though, Amber. So true.

My ds's autism is very much at the severest end of the spectrum which has made it much easier to fight for, and get, specialist education for him. But I still had to fight. Every single statement review the LEA tried to take away his 1:1 support.

Dayshiftdoris Sun 13-Oct-13 20:54:13

Thank you BoobyBeau smile

bundaberg Sun 13-Oct-13 20:54:44

hooray! this is what I have to look forward to in 2 years time.

this is exactly why I would LOVE a specialist placement for DS1... however I am highly, highly unlikely to get that.
so he will end up in mainstream, unable to cope with the stress of the classroom. And I will be the parent everyone hates because my child affects their NT child. Their child who has all the opportunity in the world.

My kid doesn't. Doesn't matter that he's intelligent. Doesn't matter that he deserves a good education in a school that will help him fulfill his potential.

fuck off

blueemerald Sun 13-Oct-13 20:55:38

PS I know the suggestions I made are almost impossible in mainstream education (almost, I have seen it happen). That's why I work in special education.

RhondaJean Sun 13-Oct-13 20:57:35

Blue, you have suggested what I tried to but I may not have phrased to correctly.

bundaberg Sun 13-Oct-13 20:57:52

all of the people saying "he'd be better off somewhere they could meet his needs"....

do you have any idea how this works?
do you know how few placements there are in specialist schools?
do you realise how hard it is to fight for, and get, a statement saying that's what your child needs?
do you realise that the best specialist placements are usually private and that getting the LA to pay for that is like getting blood from a stone?

what it's like knowing that however hard you fight, the only way to "prove" that your child needs extra support is by allowing them to "fail" at a mainstream school- and all that "failing" entails?
knowing that your child is likely to never reach their full potential because, at the end of the day, no-one wants to pay for it?

I think this is the first time I've ever been reduced to tears by a mumsnet thread

AmberLeaf Sun 13-Oct-13 21:00:22

flowers bundaberg.

I understand exactly how you feel sadly.

PolterGoose Sun 13-Oct-13 21:00:52

bundaberg (((hugs))) and flowers

sweetmelissa Sun 13-Oct-13 21:00:58

Me too Bundaberg - the tears I mean....

SunshineMMum Sun 13-Oct-13 21:03:20

Married, have you actually read the whole thread. Laying aside those that can afford to pay for specialist education for their children, of course I would willingly pay higher taxes for specialist provision for my son.

As it is DH works and pays tax, whilst I am DH's carer. We have paid for as many services as we possibly could (actually more than we could afford). I spent many an hour on the floor on my stomach teaching DS hand over hand as he as only really had functional language from the age of about 8. I have been actively part of the Lamb enquiry and the Bercow review. The government are not about to provide specialists for my child, in fact the school would not even support us in applying for a statement, possibly because we were able to provide 'some' services for our son. He is one of the lucky ones.

So here we are, broke, with a child with a late diagnosis of autism, in a great big pool of inclusion. We have to tolerate bullying and prejudice, daily taunts of 'retard' which I gather is quite acceptable these days. So yes these children must learn to co exist with mine.

GuiltRiddenAsIam Sun 13-Oct-13 21:04:00

I'm a teacher. With a child who has SN. He does things that disrupt his class sometimes. Most of the time he brings a lot to them and is a big and valued part of the learning the class does.

OP. I would contact the form tutor if you feel that this is something that is genuinely upsetting your DD. If this child is as academically able as your DD thinks, he must have proved his abilities in some way for her to know; it can't be all bad and the 'top set' should be the right place for him. I'd be asking about the support the teacher is getting to help make things better for this child. If this has been going on since the start of the year things don't seem well managed or supported at all.

As an aside, there is pressure on top sets to achieve at secondary school. However, I'd say that from Y7 onwards there's more pressure to show progress in the mid-low sets, as it's the A*-C %s that secondary schools live or die on. It's the D-C sets that feel the most pressure, not the upper ones ime.

I feel like curling up and dying when I hear about children who are of an age that should know better finding the distress of another child 'hysterical'. That's My Child they might be laughing at. I'd expect much better of my Y7s.

Also, afaik, Baroness Warnock hasn't changed her mind about Inclusion. She just directed her anger at those who use it as a lazy short cut. But I'm happy to stand corrected!

RhondaJean Sun 13-Oct-13 21:04:14

Bunda I hear you. For me, I wanted to know what the best thing would be.

My next question would be, is there a national campaign for properly supported education for high ability SN children?

MidniteScribbler Sun 13-Oct-13 21:04:31

Twice exceptional children very often go unidentified in mainstream schooling, so the fact that this young boy is in the higher standard classes means that someone (or a team of someones including his parents, previous teachers and professionals) have done a lot of work to help him achieve that level.

Right now, his needs are not being met. There are many teachers who do not understand twice exceptional children and how to provide appropriate stimulation and expectations in a classroom to enable them to achieve. The shift from primary to secondary is a massive change for all students, let alone those with additional needs. To go from a single classroom and teacher who knows him intimately and is able to provide the right experience for him, to being expected to fit in to a mainstream secondary with class changes, different teachers and teaching styles for every lesson and to not expect it will have an effect on him is naive. Hopefully the school is working closely with his parents and even with his primary school to put strategies in place in enable him to reach his full potential.

GuiltRiddenAsIam Sun 13-Oct-13 21:05:14

flowers bundaberg .

bundaberg Sun 13-Oct-13 21:07:03

i have no idea about campaigns.

the fact is that in theory inclusion into mainstream should work. those who need it should get a statement, which should hopefully include whatever is needed for them to function at school (either specialist or mainstream)

in reality though it just doesn't work like that. there isn't enough money or enough places. LAs know this and dig their heels in over statementing kids... it's a farce.

CatherineMumsnet (MNHQ) Sun 13-Oct-13 21:09:36

Hi all, can we remind you of the This Is My Child campaign....

Dayshiftdoris Sun 13-Oct-13 21:10:49


This is exactly why I ploughed in... People have no idea.

I was close to tears earlier too.
It needs raising on a National level and not just from SEN parents... From everyone hmm

I already am the parent that no one wants their child next to in class... Even friends have had quiet words to ask teachers to not put their children's class / table hmm

Apparently, as a SEN parent we not only responsible for facilitating our own children's education but everyone's else's too because quite frankly I've not seen petitions and Facebook rants about improving provision for SEN or even the change in funding or law from any of my friends with children without SEN.

Plenty about holiday fines though sad

RhondaJean Sun 13-Oct-13 21:12:15

I get so pissed off at our school system - it fails so many people - if there isn't a campaign there certainly should be.

thanks bundaberg

zzzzz Sun 13-Oct-13 21:13:37

Bunda No crying. It doesn't help. These threads are not representative of all, and whether people like it or not it disabled people are part of MS. Visit the SN boards if you feel wobbly, they are a lovely bunch.

Nkf Acne, worse and more unpredictable during puberty, flares in response to stress, is unsightly and embarrassing, is not the "fault" of the sufferer, can be life long or cause little problem in adulthood, ...... Just off the top of my head, but I wasn't expecting the analogy to be taken further than "talking about this child's disability to the exclusion of all else is inappropriate". HTH

bundaberg Sun 13-Oct-13 21:14:16

also would like to address a point made by someone saying about being able to afford (or not) a specialist placement.

I've done so much research. Found several places "local" to me (ie, within an hour's drive) that would suit DS1.

NONE of them allow you to self-fund. Obviously I can see why... they want the places to go to children who need them most, not just to people who can afford it, which is fair enough.

Just wanted to point out that even if you can afford it, doesn't mean you'll get the education you want for a child with SN

marriedinwhiteisback Sun 13-Oct-13 21:14:42

I am sorry. I would happily pay more taxes to properly support children with SN and think everyone should be prepared to do that. The system is a shambles.

bundaberg Sun 13-Oct-13 21:15:41

zzzzz I know, i know

i guess I was crying more about DS1's future than the opinions on the thread iyswim? It's close to home right now as I've been thinking about it a lot lately, and researching how I can get him the best school place so this just kind of tipped me over the edge!

SunshineMMum Sun 13-Oct-13 21:24:13

Married I have possibly been unkind here, as I have been very involved with this for many years. Of course most of us would pay more tax to provide this care, but the government and the previous one have decided that most children with special needs need to be educated in a main stream system. The previous government did conduct million pound enquiries into the current system (hooray) but I have yet to see/hear of significant differences for the provision of children filtering through the system behind mine sad.

I run a small, local support network and I see the end result of inclusion, ie kids who have been drowning in main stream for years, with few or no qualifications and no plan for their transition into adult life. the system is convoluted, a mine field to navigate and frankly a post code lottery for services and provision. The services we do get here are provided by a charity, who are struggling in vain to plug the shortfalls in provision.

I think it is great that you care enough to comment, for those like you I would urge you to put pen to paper and lobby your MP about this intolerable situation, as Doris suggested earlier.

bababababoom Sun 13-Oct-13 22:26:57

"The people advocating the SN boy be moved/dealt with are obviously not people with any personal experience of SN. You are lucky, but fucking hell are you rude. "

My son has Aspergers Syndrome. I actually think that children's needs are often not met by the education system when they have special needs, simply because it is cheaper to placethem in a mainstream classroom without much support and let them flounder. It sounds like the boy's academic work will be suffering as much as anyone else's, and he will certainly be struggling socially.


bababababoom Sun 13-Oct-13 22:31:19

Bundaberg, I completely understand and agree. It's the reason I withdrew my son from school and home educate him. The main reason anyway, there's so much I could say about the education system. Your son has something amazing though, he's got a mum who will fight his corner and absorb all of this for him. A mum who understands and doesn't limit him. For that reason I think he is going to be fine.

Pigsmummy Sun 13-Oct-13 22:31:56


My DD has missed her whole year of Reception in mainstream and all of Yr1 so far. I refused to enroll DD into mainstream until the LEA provided the support for Aspergers Syndrome, Sensory Processing Disorder and Hypermobility that she CLEARLY needs to enable her to cope with school every day. I've spent the last 12 months fighting tooth and nail just to get DD assessed for a statement. Now we are going through that process and are looking for a mainstream school all we are hearing is "this isn't a suitable environment for your child". Every time I put the phone down to a school lately I weep.

However there is NO WAY she will get specialist provision until she fails, repeatedly in a mainstream placement. It's too expensive and places are few and far between. People I know have personal experience of this and the LEA have been direct in their views on that too.

Until then I home educate DD to the best of my basic ability, learning to teach 'on the job'. That isn't best for DD either because she is not receiving the academic learning that she craves but I can't face putting her into an environment where she will be labelled 'that child', where people start complaining to the staff about moving their children away from DD for whatever reason, where other kids take the mickey out of her because of her obvious facial tics and being the kid that never gets a party invite because she is 'wierd'. DD is just a small child who has no understanding of what awaits her in the real world. She is loved, she is beautiful and she makes no judgements on other people.

OP YANBU to be concerned about your DD's education but some of the posts in reply to this (and other threads in recent days) have reduced me to tears. My DD will always have these conditions but I won't always be here to help guide and protect her. I am not sure I can trust society to either guide and protect her.

Sorry if Im OT a's just all rather upsetting to read this.

Boobybeau Sun 13-Oct-13 22:44:34

Does anyone know if there is a campaign running? If not how do we go about setting this up? Let's not just 'talk' about it, we all agree that the system isn't working for the children so lets act!
I'm rubbish with this sort of thing and wouldn't know where to start but surly pulling together is a good place?
Anyone good at writing letters? If we write up a template for everyone to print of and sign and send would that be doable? Like I said, im not great at this kina stuff but things need changing and it's got to start somewhere so why don't WE start it?

ImperialBlether Sun 13-Oct-13 22:44:50

I feel really awful, reading all this. I didn't realise it was so hard to have a child statemented.

5madthings Sun 13-Oct-13 22:49:43

Even once you get a statement it doesn't mean a child will actually get the provision they are supposed to sad

coldwinter Sun 13-Oct-13 22:50:45

Sparkle, so sorry to read that about your DD. Young children don't tend to care about stuff like tics, although sadly some parents might.

roadwalker Sun 13-Oct-13 22:51:09

It is incredibly difficult to get a statement
My DD has a full statement which means she has 1-1 assistance for the whole school day
She has this because she is violent, not all the time but she is unpredictable and the level of violence is scary
She has this to protect the other children not to help her develop
I want, and expect other children to be protected from her but if the environment were not so stressful then she may actually have a chance to develop
The children with SN but who are not a danger are worse off in some ways because they can be ignored

coldwinter Sun 13-Oct-13 22:55:41

Yes it makes me think of one girl with autism I worked with. She would occasionally scream, but a lot of the time was in her own world and pretty quiet. It was my job to engage her and get her interested in different things. And when you did, she did engage. She could easily have been sat at the back of a class and totally ignored.

sweetmelissa Sun 13-Oct-13 22:55:42

SparkleSoiree - a wonderful post that I sadly understand completely. It's awful, isn't it?

You are so right that you cannot always be there to protect and guide your DD. My sons are now adults and if anything it gets worse as society expects them to conform into a world that they cannot. However, I hope by home educating your DD you are giving her the love, strength and support that she needs, that you are protecting her NOW - which hopefully you can build on together. I wish you all the luck in the world.

One little word of warning though. I am now a foster carer working with difficult teenagers (perhaps teenagers are ALL difficult actually) and I know their individual one to one supports (much easier to get with a child in care) makes them stand out as different, meaning they are often bullied. I have only positive things to say about one to one support in the early years, but am recently struggling with the effectiveness of a one to one with my foster children.

Having been through the statementing process four times now, if I can help please contact me incase I can be of any help.

You sound a wonderful mum xx

shewhowines Sun 13-Oct-13 23:06:54

I think there is an online petition that you can set up - maybe named number 10 downing st petition or something. If they get more than 400? people signing up then the government are obliged to respond. It maybe possible to link this thread?

It was a while ago that I signed one but I am sure someone could find out how to do it.

Trigglesx Sun 13-Oct-13 23:13:49

This is mostly for those who think "well, if the child with SNs can't cope, he needs to go into a specialist school." Let me just give you an example.. and this is not even an extreme example....

DS1 was in mainstream school for Reception and Year 1. Within 3 days of him starting Reception, I was called into the Senco's office and told there was a concern that he had special needs of some sort. I literally sat and cried with relief - we had been bringing up our concerns with the various GPs at our surgery for the last 2 years, only to be fobbed off repeatedly and told "oh children develop at different rates, blah blah."

Senco recommended we go to GP and get referral to paediatrician for assessment. In the meantime, school puts 1:1 with DS1 fulltime, out of their own budget (while applying for additional funding as well) because they felt he needed it. We were lucky. Not many schools will do that with no statement.

GP refused to refer to paed, as she stated that ASD and ADHD (our concerns) were "mental health issues" and referred us to CAMHS, who promptly fired back a letter to GP stating she was basically off her rocker as DS1 obviously needed to see a paed. We got a referral from the school nurse and DS1 finally saw a paed, who then referred him to other appropriate specialists (SALT, OT, PT, etc).

Anyway, school assisted us in applying for a statement. Again, we were lucky - our school was brilliantly proactive and bent over backwards to support DS1.

By the beginning of year 1, it was becoming clear that DS1 was not coping in MS school. He had sensory problems as well, and because he could not cope with the noise and movements, he had to leave the class up to 20+ times per day to calm down. Thankfully, the children were very tolerant of his needs and treated him very well. (Some of the parents, however, were a different story. hmm)

We spent that entire year fighting with the LA to get him into a local specialist school that stated very clearly that they could meet his needs. He is very clever, on G&T lists, and the LA said no way could he go to specialist school as he was "too able." However, they claimed that he could cope with the MS classrooms, and when they sent a woman to the school to discuss it with myself and the Senco, the Senco recommended she view him in the classroom so she could see how much he struggled - the woman refused. She said "it's not part of my job to see him in class." hmm

We had to appeal their refusal, prepare for tribunal. We had paperwork from literally EVERYONE that worked with DS1 (paed, OT, SALT, teacher, TAs, headteacher, Senco, etc) stating that he would do better at the specialist school and still the LA refused. They finally agreed on the very last day of school of Year 1, which of course meant DS1 wasn't able to go through a transition time to the new school (which was recommended by the paed, the specialist school, and his MS school).

He is 7yo and happy at the specialist school now. There is no way he could have dealt with junior school in MS.

Does this even clarify it a little?? We fought and fought, had the backing of literally everyone working closely with him, and STILL the LA refused and wanted him in MS even though everyone was telling them he couldn't cope with it. Do you have any idea what it's like to see your 6yo falling apart in front of you and not being able to do anything about it? We HAD to send him to school, knowing he couldn't cope, and being utterly thankful that at least his MS school was doing their best to minimise the damage to him.

And by the way... he is DISABLED, he is not a "special needs child." Just to clarify.

Trigglesx Sun 13-Oct-13 23:16:25

Really, you can't fight for the boy to have the correct support, all you can do is focus on getting your DD the best education you can for her, it's shit if the school isn't able to support him fully, but not something you can alter

But why?!?!?! WHY can't you fight for children to have the correct support? Doesn't that benefit everyone? I'd be thrilled to see parents saying "That's it, I'm talking to the school, obviously they need to support that child better." Rather than them blaming the child or the child's parents.

I will NEVER understand why people can't step up and demand better support for children when it's needed. I can guarantee you if more people did, it would probably make more of a difference. Parents of disabled children are often left to fight alone.

5madthings Sun 13-Oct-13 23:24:06

triggles its awful that pareymts are having to fight so hard for a basic right for their children sad

Re disabled/special needs, I would say a child with special needs or with a disability (I think I think of disability as more of a physical issue tho obviously autism etc can be just as disabling? Is that a word?). Earlier on this thread? A poster said it is not referred to as special need now, but as additional needs?

I dotn have children with any extra needs (tho there are issues with ds2, have seen camhs and are debating a re referral, add and odd have been suggested) anyway what I am trying to say is I a, not all that au fait with all the language etc but would hate to cause offense. So you would say your child has disabilities and would prefer others to use that language?

I frequently see see special needs on mnet, occasionally additional needs, I just dont want to be causing offense.

SunshineMMum Sun 13-Oct-13 23:26:37

5mad you are right it is the fight for everything which is more exhausting than the actual care of the child. I used to be outgoing but now I am just worn down with it all. Hope all goes well at CAMHS.

Trigglesx I understand fully the frustration and time consumption involved in the process you endured. We have numerous professional reports and STILL had to go to tribunal just to get assessed - even the panel there were a bit confused as to how it got that far. Not looking forward to the coming year or two, I KNOW we will end up going to tribunal again. You sound like a fab mum. smile

coldwinter and sweetmelissa Thank you. smile

Trigglesx Sun 13-Oct-13 23:31:52

5madthings no no, you're not causing offense. But I wanted to make a point.

I've been watching lately, and when "special needs" are mentioned, you can practically see some people doing an eye roll. It's starting to have distinctly negative connotations.

Many of these children that have special needs are actually disabled, and I have seen that there are less negative attitudes towards the idea of a child who is "disabled" as opposed to a child that has "special needs." I suspect part of it is the term "special" which some (myself included) find a bit wearing as many people utilise the word "special" in a derogatory fashion.

I have also come across people that dismiss "special needs" as simply behavioural problems, rather than understanding that behavioural problems are often just a symptom of special needs.

DS1 is actually disabled. So therefore I am trying to be clear in this. That's all, really.

5madthings Sun 13-Oct-13 23:32:06

Well not sure re camhs, last time their attitude was that we were coping with him and using appropriate strategies so they were happy just to leave us to get on with it...

He as just started at high school tho and its proving difficult. He is happy but organization, homework etc is a nightmare.

5madthings Sun 13-Oct-13 23:34:41

Thanks triggles and I agree there is def an attitude when special needs are mentioned and the word 'special' is used negatively, its something I have noticed on mnet and in RL sad

Trigglesx Sun 13-Oct-13 23:35:04

Sparkle exactly right. And that's why I was clear that we were very lucky. We had a very proactive MS primary school that went well out of their way and dug into their own budget to make sure he was supported as best they could. So many do not have even that. And so many have to fight much much longer than we did. I cannot imagine it - we were absolutely worn down, exhausted, and horrified by it all.

SunshineMMum Sun 13-Oct-13 23:35:04

Aren't they always, it took us years to get the correct diagnosis for ds! Whatever the label the difficulties you describe are blooming hard work flowers

SunshineMMum Sun 13-Oct-13 23:35:22

Aren't they always, it took us years to get the correct diagnosis for ds! Whatever the label the difficulties you describe are blooming hard work flowers

YouTheCat Sun 13-Oct-13 23:35:23

True Sunshine. I lost a fair few friends because I couldn't just change plans/come out/manage ds's behaviour outside (he can be a danger to himself and others). You do all the fighting and there isn't much left after that.

The paediatric doctor we saw with ds (between age 2 and 4), took 2 years to diagnose my non-verbal, no eye contact ds with 'mild autism' hmm

He's 18 now and is still non-verbal. She told us he'd speak when he was ready. Still waiting.

Hope it goes well, 5mad.

SunshineMMum Sun 13-Oct-13 23:37:33

Yep with you there too youthecat. 1st year dream baby, in the midst of lots of lovely Mums and babies, who gradually feel away as the going got tough. Communication is the toughest frontier!

YouTheCat Sun 13-Oct-13 23:38:29

At age 13 he went to a specialist assessment centre where he stayed during the week for 6 weeks.

The experts there diagnosed ds as one of the most complex cases of autism they had witnessed. Even their very well trained staff struggled.

Madmum24 Sun 13-Oct-13 23:59:00

I speak from the POV of a parent with a child with autism.

YANBU. It is not fair for this boy or the other children to be educated in this setting which seems to be very distressing for him.

Sadly many parents with autistic children struggle to get them a place in an appropriate school which is fully equipped to deal with their anxieties/fears due to lack of funding. It is cheaper for the government to keep them in mainstream with an assistant (who are often not specialized in dealing with behavioural issues)

birdmomma Mon 14-Oct-13 02:39:39

I am a professional specialising in working with children on the spectrum at school. I would be very concerned that this boy is so continually distressed. It is not ok for people with autism to be put in a position where they are having meltdowns on a daily basis. Clearly something or many things about the structure of the class, the lessons and the way he is being taught are very wrong for him. I would expect the SENCO to involve a psychologist or behaviour specialist to look in depth at what the causes are for his distress and to address them immediately. It shouldn't have to be like this. You can't just chuck a person with ASD into a mainstream class without making all the modifications that they need to make it a safe environment for them. A series of learning support assistants is not the answer.

OneInEight Mon 14-Oct-13 06:29:36

Have been putting off filling in the forms for secondary for my boys(AS). We have the following option:

Mainstream secondary which based on primary school performance we expect the boys to be excluded from within days due to violent behaviour - that's if we can even get them there in the first place (we have lots of school refusal)

A Behaviour Emotional Social Difficulties Secondary where they could come out with at most 3 GCSE's at low grades despite being already at level 6 in Maths and level 5 in Literacy.

Home schooling, however, last time we tried this ds2 retreated into his bedroom, refused to do any work or go out of the house . I have already been forced to give up my job due to school difficulties so at least I would be around to do this.

A specialist ASD school - the LEA have already refused this for primary - the annual fees are upwards of £50,000 even for the cheapest one so I think they are going to say no to this one as well.

These are the choices parents of AS children with challenging behaviour have. It is not easy

giraffesCantGoGuising Mon 14-Oct-13 07:11:56

There have been some horrible threads about people with disabilities on MN - I don't think the op is an example of this. I think she is right in that the current set up is not working for anyone in that class. The boy deserves more support - I am unsure what would help so am just using he word support to encompass anything that might change to help him.

I wonder what training teachers get now in working with children with SN. 10 years ago when I did my teacher training we got none. That;s right NONE. I had to select additional support needs as an option - and only 12 of us did! Even then it was mainly dyslexia it focused on.

I think the system needs to change and allow for inclusion by providing better support and training. Without it everyone in classes like this are suffering - and by everyone I mean ALL pupils, it sounds extremely hard work for this boy, I hope he gets the help and support he needs.

FanjoForTheMammaries Mon 14-Oct-13 07:23:30

Oh this has been one of the horrible threads too..due to comments by others, which have rightfully been removed for being disablist.

The OP wasnt directly but I still.maintain it wasn't a pleasant thread to start.

FanjoForTheMammaries Mon 14-Oct-13 07:28:57

Which is why I vowed to step back a bit from MN..all these horrid threads..

So off to spend the school holidays with DD.

RedHelenB Mon 14-Oct-13 07:32:30

OneiunEight - look at choice 2 - the fact that they are doing well academically may well mean that they will do so there too, Presumably it is smaller classes & more support?

Morgause Mon 14-Oct-13 07:39:49

Sometimes the only way to get a lazy HT to accept there is a problem is when parents complain about the management of the behaviour of a particular child. I've known teachers who have had concerns about particular behaviour ignored by HTs who tell them to "manage".

But when parents begin to complain to the governors and the LEA and threaten to remove children HTs can't ignore it and it can kick start the process of getting adequate support.

It isn't disablist, imo, to have concerns that inadequately managed behaviour is impacting badly on other children in the class.

YouTheCat Mon 14-Oct-13 07:42:10

I think what gets me about the OP is that she didn't see it as much of a problem until her dd stopped finding it funny - well, that's how it reads to me anyway.

roadwalker Mon 14-Oct-13 07:43:59

I dont think the OP is wrong to bring up the issue of meeting all childrens needs
But, further down the thread she said that if her child were acting like that she would be addressing it
This is the part I find insulting. The boys parents have probably spent many years ' addressing ' his issues

marriedinwhiteisback Mon 14-Oct-13 07:50:08

<<gently whispers<< If I heard teachers campaigning about this and striking over issues like this; like unacceptable resources for those with the greatest need - I would be far more minded to support them over their pensions and workload.

As you were.

YouTheCat Mon 14-Oct-13 08:03:22

I'd say this comes under workload. Paperwork involved in order to even begin to access appropriate provision is just mad for a start.

WandaDoff Mon 14-Oct-13 08:09:09

<hides thread>

Strumpetron Mon 14-Oct-13 08:11:00

marriedinwhite I think they first deserve fair conditions before fighting for other causes, that really other people should be fighting for.

FanjoForTheMammaries Mon 14-Oct-13 08:17:25

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

5madthings Mon 14-Oct-13 08:24:46

other people? what other people? the parents of a child with sn's who are having to battle just to get their childs basic needs met?!!

actually it should be everyones battle, we as a society should look out for those who cannot fight this battle themselves.

redhelen i dont think its as simple as

Beautifulbabyboy Mon 14-Oct-13 08:27:31

I am with OP, I would be massively concerned if my children's education was being disrupted by anything.

Lesson times and plans are set. If a significant period of time is spent dealing with one pupil then the lesson objective isn't met and the childrens' education will suffer. This isn't about learning about life, that happens from the moment you are born until you die, at school you need the best eductIon you can have so the next 50 years of your working life are not crap.

5madthings Mon 14-Oct-13 08:27:54

posted to soon....

i was saying i dont think its as simple as choosing a school for sn pupils as you cant just choose them, the spaces are limited and placements a battle to get.

RedHelenB Mon 14-Oct-13 08:53:15

5madthings - i was replying to oneineight about her options.

5madthings Mon 14-Oct-13 08:56:12

yes i know and i also meant to add why should she have to consider a school that is not going to meet his needs, a school where he may only get three/four gcses when he is clearly an able child. he wont be able to get anymore gcses if they are simply not offered or taught in the school which is often the case.

marriedinwhiteisback Mon 14-Oct-13 08:59:05

Laugh on fanjo and then start justifying why the potential of every child in the country should not be able to fulfil their potential. This is absoltely about every child - Every Child Matters - remember that. Every child is entitled to a properly funded system where they can learn and fulfil their potential. Every child is different (whether having a or a combination of protected characteristics) and one size does not fit all whether the children are neuro typical or otherwise.

zzzzz Mon 14-Oct-13 08:59:35

The OPs child is doing ok work wise according to OP.

Strumpetron Mon 14-Oct-13 08:11:00
marriedinwhite I think they first deserve fair conditions before fighting for other causes, that really other people should be fighting for.


If there was a child in you dc's class who wasn't being fed, would you expect us as a society to be addressing it? Children with disabilities are just children, they deserve exactly EXACTLY the same chances as anyone else. The only way for them to get that is for us to accomodate them. They are already making the extra effort. Many of the Mums on the SN board get up at 5 every day just to have their child ready for school by 9. Just for that child, not siblings, or lunch boxes or a load of washing or a shower. The average income for a family with a child with disability is about 15K. Many of us cannot work because there are no afterschool clubs/activities, or our children just can't cope with it. We're just like you, you know. The same mix of graduates/professionals/high and low achievers. If you don't help us educate these children YOUR children will have to support them throughout their lives.

FanjoForTheMammaries Mon 14-Oct-13 09:28:31

I'd never dispute that married.

Just think it's important we are all clear on the real reason you suddenly want teachers to campaign for better resources for supporting kids with additional needs.

In case anyone thinks you have gone all just want them to shut up basically.

AmberLeaf Mon 14-Oct-13 09:37:04

^ Every Child Matters - remember that. Every child is entitled to a properly funded system where they can learn and fulfil their potential^

Except every child does NOT get what they are 'entitled' to.

Ours don't.

ouryve Mon 14-Oct-13 09:48:56

This could be my DS you are describing, macdoodle. The only secondary special school options for him in this county don't even offer GCSEs. Unless I win my current quest for the LA to fund a £54000 place at an independent special school in another county were he won't simply be babysat and left to rot, where the hell am I supposed to send him?

AmberLeaf Mon 14-Oct-13 10:02:44

I think the important point for parents of NT children to take from this thread, is that us parents of children with SNs simply don't get very much choice of where our children are educated.

Often it is a toss up between unsuitable school 1 or unsuitable school 2 and deal with the consequences.

ithaka Mon 14-Oct-13 11:04:47

My DH works in an internationally renowned secondary school for young people with additional support needs. Inclusion is not always best for young people, regardless of their academic ability. DH's pupils go from very bright (advanced higher) to vocational life skills, what they all have in common is that mainstream education is not right for them.

It is an independent school, so about half of the pupils are self funded - fees are comparable to a really good private school, which I know from other threads many on MN can afford (we certainly couldn't).

The rest are funded by the local authority and here is the rub. The LA will always contest any recommendation to send a child there and uses good legal firms to fight their case. Which means the LA funded children either have incredibly clued up and combative parents who have fought like hell for their child, or the child's behaviour is so very extreme they have been excluded from every other school - this school can usually manage very extreme behaviour, there are enough trained and resources staff and facilities.

I think is is unreasonable to have a pop at the OP for being unhappy with the current situation, but sadly it appears her daughter and the boy in her class are the victim of the current restraints on public spending. This is the reality of the current government policy.

The school is expensive for the LA, but you could argue saves society a fortune in supporting all to achieve whatever potential they are capable of (including the OP's daughter & classmates, who shouldn't have to tolerate disruption to their education) and thus contribute more to society in the longer term.

marriedinwhiteisback Mon 14-Oct-13 11:13:31

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Trigglesx Mon 14-Oct-13 11:17:45

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AnaisHellWitch Mon 14-Oct-13 11:25:19

I didn't see this one yesterday and have only read the first few posts and skimmed the rest.

JumpingJackSprat, you're not wrong. There is a glut of anti-inclusion threads at the moment. Must be the time of year for them. It's bloody depressing.

hazeyjane Mon 14-Oct-13 11:34:54

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marriedinwhiteisback Mon 14-Oct-13 11:37:32

I have seen exclusion panels held over a barrel when a clued up parent has requested assessment after years of insisting the child is neuro typical. Parents paying for independent dyslexia/discalculia/organisational assessments to get their dc an extra 15 minutes in exams, etc. It does go on and it detracts from those who really are in need.

FanjoForTheMammaries Mon 14-Oct-13 11:38:32

I am so bad at stepping away.

To be honest I am just seeing lots of posts now where people try to word it nicely and sensitively but they do not want the non NT kids there being educated with their kids.

That is the bottom line.

FanjoForTheMammaries Mon 14-Oct-13 11:39:33

Unless they can act NT or be sat on by a TA all day to keep them in line.

FanjoForTheMammaries Mon 14-Oct-13 11:40:54

Married you are just coming out with nicer and nicer opinions.

Trigglesx Mon 14-Oct-13 11:43:33

To be honest I am just seeing lots of posts now where people try to word it nicely and sensitively but they do not want the non NT kids there being educated with their kids.

Oh.... apparently I've missed the ones that were nicely and sensitively worded. hmm

I have seen exclusion panels held over a barrel when a clued up parent has requested assessment after years of insisting the child is neuro typical. Parents paying for independent dyslexia/discalculia/organisational assessments to get their dc an extra 15 minutes in exams, etc. It does go on and it detracts from those who really are in need.

Oh FFS. Seriously. Because a parent is going to go to the time and expense to get their child an extra 15 MINUTES on an exam and you think the child doesn't need it IN YOUR OPINION. If the child was NT, then I think most parents would simply spend that time and money on a tutor instead. What a ridiculous statement.

FanjoForTheMammaries Mon 14-Oct-13 11:45:50

Triggles..yes I said they are trying to word it sensitively...not that they succeeded wink

Trigglesx Mon 14-Oct-13 11:47:37


AmberLeaf Mon 14-Oct-13 11:51:14

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MidniteScribbler Mon 14-Oct-13 12:02:48

Say what now?

You did not seriously just suggest that?

::head desk::

OneInEight Mon 14-Oct-13 12:04:12

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YouTheCat Mon 14-Oct-13 12:11:17

Well my ds is autistic just for a laugh and all the extra resources hmm

Some people have no idea how hard parents of children with additional needs have to work to get listened to in the first place.

Trigglesx Mon 14-Oct-13 12:17:56

so much for me trying to illustrate that point in my previous post. hmm

YouTheCat Mon 14-Oct-13 12:33:23

I thought you illustrated it well.

Spider7 Mon 14-Oct-13 12:43:31

Mainstream teachers do not get very good training to cope with SEN kids. They get very little prep time, very little assessment time, very little support. In an idel world inclusion would be a great idea. The world is not ideal. Disruptive students... due to SN or just bad behaviour..... DO disrupt lessons. It is almost impossible to have them permenantly removed to a more suitable environment even when all know this is what would be best for the child.

An outstanding teacher or one with superb classroom management skills... Who has a natural ability to empathise & engage with all may well be able to handle this sort of situation. These teachers are rare & with the lack if adequate training & time to consolidate & build on this training, it is unlikely that the majority of teachers will ever be able to deal with these situations. Inclusion can only work if adequate funding, training & support are provided. Currently they are not. This means nobody wins... the SN child loses out the most though.

Keep in mind that teachers are becoming ever more disillusioned & beginning to look at other career options. Soon there will be even fewer teachers capable of dealing with these types of situations.

Teaching. Such an easy job.

Clearly an important one.

Maybe time they and the kids they are in charge of are given the support & recognition they deserve & more is done to encourage the bet people to become teachers. Which means money & desirable working conditions.

Make your voice heard OP. Both the boy & your daughter are being let down.

Pagwatch Mon 14-Oct-13 12:50:21

Of course the really stupid thing is the shortsightedness.

Children with SN need a decent education for all our sakes. Because every tiny step towards independence as adults will save everyone a huge amount of money down the line.

Thnk the lord, my son is at a special school. I am going to care for him as best I can until I die but the cost is huge.
Every single word he learns, every time he manages something alone it reduces incrementally the cost of his care in years/decades to come.

The cost of all these children who are being marginalised under the banner of inclusion is going to create a monstrous bill for the taxpayer down the line.
If people don't genuinely start embracing the idea that inclusion involves all parents working to get schools and LEAs to provide genuine and effective support we are screwed. The thinly veiled 'point at the kid with SN because he's the problem' attitude is going to end up fucking over everyone.

I understand anxiety about our own child. I really do. But the child with SN isn't the problem. Provision and effective support and a dearth of special schools is the problem.

ouryve Mon 14-Oct-13 12:54:52

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Pagwatch Mon 14-Oct-13 13:18:37

I thought this might be helpful from the This Is My Child Campaign

Myths about parenting children with special needs

The aim of our This Is My Child campaign is good old-fashioned consciousness-raising about what it's like to be the parent of a child with special needs.
It also aims to debunk unhelpful - and incorrect - assumptions about how children with special needs behave - and suggests how we can all challenge those assumptions to help alleviate the stress this places on parents.
With our campaign partners, Every Disabled Child Matters, Contact A Family and Mencap, and with help from the National Autistic Society, we've pulled together six common myths about children with special needs.

*MYTH 1: Behaviour disorders are a fashionable excuse for bad behaviour and poor parenting
MYTH 2:If your child has a disability, you're given lots of easily accessible support*
MYTH 3:People who get disability-related payments for their children are scroungers
MYTH 4:Language about special needs doesn't matter
MYTH 5:People with autism are unaffectionate geniuses

ouryve Mon 14-Oct-13 13:28:12

Grrr. I think the mumsnet server hamsters are asleep again!

Quite, Pagwatch. DS1 has the potential to become a higher rate taxpayer.

He also has the potential to become a very large burden on the taxpayer.

One of those options requires a little investment, over the next decade, but the default option is the one that costs half as much, now, but is likely to cost a great deal more for the next 5 or 6 decades (or more) of his life.

ithaka Mon 14-Oct-13 14:32:35

*DS1 has the potential to become a higher rate taxpayer.

He also has the potential to become a very large burden on the taxpayer.*

Actually, I think this is true of all children. It is really the point I was trying to make in my post. Government cuts mean LAs will fight tooth & nail for the cheapest option, not the best option. The best option will be best for all young people, those who need a specialist environment and those who don't. Anything less than that is a short term saving with long term consequences for society.

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Wannabestepfordwife Mon 14-Oct-13 16:25:35

This thread has really brought a tear to my eye. You would think in an era where sn are being diagnosed more the government would start to invest more money in dc with sn rather than funding free schools in areas where there's already enough school places.

Op Yanbu to want the best education for your dd its what every parent wants. It's not even the end of the first half term the boy needs longer to adjust- it took me till Xmas and I'm nt.

This may sound really stupid and ignorant but I've always thought it would be better if TAs were funded by the lea but employed by the Dcs family so the family could interview and employ who they think can support their dc the best, the dc gets the same TA throughout school, I thought this would make the transition to secondary easier if dc have a familiar presence and someone who knows and understands their triggers.

alwayshome1 Mon 14-Oct-13 16:49:44

Just a note of support to all the parents of children with disabilities, your love for them comes over loud and clear.

TBH I was complacently living in my cosy bubble when the anger of some posters on mumsnet about the treatment of their children with SN caught my eye. I didn't get it at first and thought they they were too aggressive. Then I started to look and listen in RL and read more here. A penny dropped somewhere. I have heard awful things said by my own friends. I challenge that now.

And if a situation arose in my son's class of an obviously distressed child then I hope my response would include compassion for that child, maybe an offer of support to their parents, lots of talk with my son, contacting the school to ask them what was being done to help this child.

Pagwatch says the real problem is shortsightedness, and it is of course - but not simply on the financial side of things. Compassion matters - all our children will rely on others generosity and goodwill in their lives. My son will be less than the person he could be, less happy, with poorer relationships, if he learns to believe he is being disadvantaged by others who are 'different' from him.

It might seem like you are banging your head on a brick wall talking about your child and their disability here - I just wanted to say someone is listening and I am surely not alone.

PolterGoose Mon 14-Oct-13 16:55:30

always that's such a lovely and genuine post, thank you flowers

zzzzz Mon 14-Oct-13 16:55:30

At the end of a long long day, that is really such a very good thing to hear, alwayshome1. Thank you so much for posting.


Wannabestepfordwife Mon 14-Oct-13 16:56:18

alwayshome1 your post has said everything I wanted to say just struggled to articulate

KittiesInsane Mon 14-Oct-13 16:59:50

having a meltdown, which takes 20mins to calm down (if we're lucky), shouting at the family, throwing all his books and stuff on the floor (numerous occasions), storming out of mealtimes...

I've altered this a bit from the OP as I refuse to type 'tantrum', but that is my son at the moment at home. He is stressed to the hilt and so are we, and his 11-year-old sister, who adores him and with good reason, lives with this shit. She stays awake at night worrying about him.

At least, OP, your daughter leaves it behind at the end of each school day.

KittiesInsane Mon 14-Oct-13 17:00:39

Sorry. Not much to the point. But today is one of those days when I just want someone to sweep in and make it all better. Please.

PolterGoose Mon 14-Oct-13 17:19:33

Kitties brew and cake and maybe wine for later?

KittiesInsane Mon 14-Oct-13 17:21:28

Thanks Polters.
DD is in fact making cake right now to cheer up both her brother and me. She's a star (and would appear to be bringing herself up that way while my attention is elsewhere).

AmberLeaf Mon 14-Oct-13 17:40:34

alwayshome1 flowers for you.

PolterGoose Mon 14-Oct-13 18:14:44

Was just thinking about your post alwayshome and wanted to say that just one person thinking differently and having a bit of empathy and understanding makes it worth engaging on these horrible threads. I think sometimes people forget we are talking about children, not demons.

BoneyBackJefferson Mon 14-Oct-13 18:41:43

this is a situation in which no-one wins.

I am reminded of something Stephen Shore said
"If you've met one person with Autism, you've met one person with Autism"

FanjoForTheMammaries Mon 14-Oct-13 18:42:26

Agreed. .always feel a bit let down on these threads that no one with NT children speaks out in support so thanks ..means a lot thanks

coldwinter Mon 14-Oct-13 18:46:25

Fanjo - women with NT children have spoken out in support. Nobody thinks children with SN should have the poor standard of support or education that many currently receive.

As I said upthread, there should be a choice. For some SN children, aminstreaming with good support works brilliantly. And that should always be an option. But some children never do well in mainstream schools. They need a smaller and more specialised environment.

sickofsocalledexperts Mon 14-Oct-13 18:48:10

I am mum to a severely autistic boy who spent 3 years in mainstream. I have a slightly different point.

I actually think the law is quite a sensible one in the case mentioned by the OP.

Every child in the UK has a right to a place in mainstream school, whatever their needs or disability ( I am quite proud of our country for that: it is certainly NOT the case in many many other countries, far from it).

However, the education of a child with SEN must not be "disruptive to the efficient education of others"

If it is proving disruptive, as in the OP, the school must take "all reasonable steps" to adjust to the SEN child's needs - this could mean giving him/her a quiet room/desk in times of stress, or a differentiated curriculum, or more training for the TA (often the best starting point)

It is the same principle as - don't just tell the kid in a wheelchair they can't attend the school because of all the stairs, put in a lift to enable them to access the mainstream education which is tbeir right.

However I don't think it is fair for the situation in the OP to go on forever, to the detriment of the rest of the class

That is to place the rights of one child too far above the other 29

When my boy was noisy or disruptive in class, I fully expected him to be taken out so that everyone else could hear the lesson

I also worked (and work) very very hard every hour of every day on his behaviour, such that he can access as much of the world as possible. But he has to learn, eg, to be quiet in the cinema, otherwise it is not fair on everyone else. If he isn't, I take him out. Then he learns to keep quiet, as he wants to watch.

But I think it is good that these issues are debated and I think there have been some very supportive posts on here


FanjoForTheMammaries Mon 14-Oct-13 18:49:00

Yes I meant very few..not none.

My daughter is at special school. .you don't need to not all children thrive in mainstream smile

BeaverAbroad Mon 14-Oct-13 18:49:05

I think quite a lot of people with NT children who have spoken out in support (sadly there were also quite a lot of disablist and ignorant people with NT children too).

coldwinter Mon 14-Oct-13 18:50:12

sick - Our local cinema also has screenings for autistic children and their families, or similar SN. Children can get up and wander around, scream, etc and no one will complain.

FanjoForTheMammaries Mon 14-Oct-13 18:51:10

X posted..I was addressing coldwinter

muchadoaboutsomething Mon 14-Oct-13 18:56:16

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sickofsocalledexperts Mon 14-Oct-13 18:56:36

Yes coldwinter, i think the autistic screenings are great, but I am a stubborn old one and I want him to learn how to behave in the "normal" cinema, theatre etc

Much of my time I have in mind "how will things be for him when I am dead" and I want to give him as much independence as possible, and teach him to adapt to a mainstream world

muchadoaboutsomething Mon 14-Oct-13 18:57:54

Oh and if only every school would put in a lift for the child in the wheelchair. They won't if another school has one and is suitable, as it is not a reasonable adjustment under the Equality Act.

sickofsocalledexperts Mon 14-Oct-13 18:59:55

I thought wheelchair access was a must in every public building ? Perhaps only state schools?

coldwinter Mon 14-Oct-13 19:01:52

sick - If you can get him to do that, I agree it will make his life easier.

sick - Lifts are only required if it is a reasonable adjustment.

Some of the posts on this thread have made me feel sick to my stomach. sad

It doesn't help that I'm already feeling low after being informed DC2 has been having meltdowns all day (NOT TANTRUMS!!!) because he forgot to bring in his homework. He's also on a last chance at jiu jitsu because he has been disruptive since starting his new school class last month, the change has unsettled him. He's in Y5, I'm dreading the transition to highschool.

I'm sorry my ds causes disruption but what fucking choice do I have? We can't get a statement basically because he is too intelligent and his education isn't suffering, but socially and emotionally he's a wreck. I'd love some help but there isn't any.

DC3 also has autism but she is very quiet and "daydreamy",she hasn't got a friend to her name and she keeps asking me why, but hey, at least she's not disruptive.

DC4 (also ASD) has just started YR1 and it's starting all over again, people are noticing now school has become more formal and less play based.

Where do some of these posters think these special school places are exactly?

AmberLeaf Mon 14-Oct-13 19:13:11

Yes coldwinter, i think the autistic screenings are great, but I am a stubborn old one and I want him to learn how to behave in the "normal" cinema, theatre etc

Much of my time I have in mind "how will things be for him when I am dead" and I want to give him as much independence as possible, and teach him to adapt to a mainstream world

I get what you are saying.

But I worry about what my son will be about to do without me 'managing' him.

I don't think everyone with autism is able to 'learn' to just be quiet, so it would be good if people would just learn to accept the presence of people with disabilities and put up with a little bit of inconvenience.

sickofsocalledexperts Mon 14-Oct-13 19:21:05

Yes amberleaf, but while I do agree that people should be way more accepting of my boy's autism and learning difficulties, it is not right for me to expect a whole cinema audience to put up with him screeching so loudly that they cant hear the film. If I can teach him to be quiet, his autistic rigidity is such that he will learn "cinemas are places where I don't scream" and this may help the carer who goes with him when I am gone. That is the theory anyway

Agree niot all can learn that, hence the autism screenings are a very good thing

EeTraceyluv Mon 14-Oct-13 19:27:59

It would be nice if my daughters school would provide a sound field for her hearing disability or even remember she can't hear very well when I have been in numerous times to tell them. Ok, it's not a big disability but it impacts and i get fed up with her (although not often, but once is too often) telling me she 'struggled in class today' because of two or three tiny weeny adjustments that would affect no-one else.

YouTheCat Mon 14-Oct-13 19:33:29

Tracey that's bloody awful. It is tiny adjustments sometimes that make all the difference.

We have several children with hearing impairments at our school and things are adjusted to suit. One young man is deaf and he has a TA who signs. In fact his teacher and whole class learned to sign too.

samu2 Mon 14-Oct-13 19:35:07


Thank you for your very good, non hysteric post.

You are spot on.

samu2 Mon 14-Oct-13 19:36:22


bundaberg Mon 14-Oct-13 19:42:56

muchado really feel for you with regard to school.

I was talking to someone from DS1's school recently and saying how bloody unfair it was that people with disabled children get so little choice in their school.

I live in a large-ish town and we have 6 secondary schools.

everyone with an NT child has their pick of the bunch. They have options.

I don't. OK, I could technically choose any of them, but he will NOT cope in mainstream- so that isn't realistically something I can do.
So my "choice" is to send him to the ONE school that has a specialist unit. Only that isn't really a choice either, because unless I can get him statemented he can't go there either hmm

lionheart Mon 14-Oct-13 19:49:55

always, that is a lovely, intelligent post.

Some of the other comments on here, not so much. angry

Nicknameinvalid Mon 14-Oct-13 20:04:40

This could be about my ds tbh.. He's autistic and is currently having a meltdown every day.. Only his meltdowns are aggression to himself - but the kids still talk and laugh and point sad

But I KNOW he can cope in mainstream as he did last year and the year before that.. But I also know it takes a good 3 months for him to settle and find the routine.. He is very bright and wouldn't be eligible for a SN school.

Threads like this make me sad as I can jmagine one being written about my ds.. I know it's not great for other kids to see a child in meltdown.. I assure you it's worse watching your child do it.

alwayshome1 Mon 14-Oct-13 20:57:12

Thank you for the flowers and very kind words. Very much appreciated.

Kleinzeit Mon 14-Oct-13 21:06:48

I don’t know if you’re still here OP and I’m not sure what you want us to say. Because if this boy is taking up as much of the teacher’s as time and is being as disruptive to the whole class as all that, not to mention aggressive to the staff, then do you really imagine the teachers have somehow failed to notice?

So it doesn’t sound like the kind of situation where your input to the school would be of any practical help to anyone, including your DD, unless you think she is somehow more affected than any of the others and the teachers don’t realise.

its quite hard to explain to a 12yr old why some things are completely unacceptable for her, but to her appear are ok for others.

Well at least explaining that is very easy – he can’t help it, presumably your DD can. Simple as. If your DD doesn’t know that by now then you really do need to spell it out to her.

bundaberg Mon 14-Oct-13 22:23:56

omg. I think our new headteacher must be reading this thread!

collared DP at school this morning and mentioned that she really wants to start the statementing process off for DS1!!!

i am like this shock and grin

YouTheCat Mon 14-Oct-13 22:26:58

That's brilliant, Bunda. smile

AmberLeaf Mon 14-Oct-13 22:29:50

Great news bundaberg

ouryve Mon 14-Oct-13 22:35:39

Headfirst - he's not too intelligent. My boy in year 5 finished year 4 assessed at 4a in Maths and an overall 3a in Literacy, despite his initial language delay and communication difficulties. Children with multiple exceptionality are no less in need of support than those who are achieving below average. If he needs support that cannot be provided without a statement, he should have a statement.

ProphetOfDoom Mon 14-Oct-13 22:38:53

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

bundaberg Mon 14-Oct-13 22:39:02

i'm so pleased. she's a qualified senco too, which is good, and she said that over the last x number of years she's only had ONE statement refused. which is, quite frankly, amazing. the one that was refused, she appealed and got.

fingers crossed!

ouryve Mon 14-Oct-13 22:41:33

sickof - DS1 prefers the ASD screenings, not because he can walk about (because he doesn't - he merely spends most of the time after the first half hour asking if the film's nearly finished) but because he strongly Disapproves of adverts, and the ASD screenings are ad free (and they've learnt to give warnings if the film comes with a bundled short or trailer)

bundaberg Mon 14-Oct-13 22:44:50

headfirst i agrfee with ourvye.... your son should (technically) be considered for a statement regardless of his academic ability.

someone on the SN board pointed me towards this site which i've found pretty informative and useful

bundaberg Mon 14-Oct-13 22:47:51

and nickname too... my son copes ok in his mainstream primary (but its a very small school, only 12 in his class) in terms of mostly managing to do some work and basically getting by. He tends not to have too many meltdowns now, he just goes and withdraws into a corner instead which while less disruptive to the rest of the class is just as disruptive to his learning as having a meltdown would be in terms of time out of his learning

But you know, coping with school isn't good enough. Our kids deserve an environment where they can do more than just "get by".. they deserve to flourish!

lisad123everybodydancenow Mon 14-Oct-13 22:58:01

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

We did apply for a statement, but it got refused basically because he wasn't failing academically.

It was 2 years ago now, I want to reapply, also for my youngest 2 who have only recently been diagnosed. He is more disruptive now (or at least as his peers have grown it is more noticable) I so want him statemented before high school.

Really need to speak to the SENCO.