To think the school need to support my child

(341 Posts)
mychildisnotnaughty Thu 10-Oct-13 19:02:38

DS turned 4 at the end of July so started in reception as one of the youngest. Hes been struggling and today I was called in because he ran out of the hall in a PE lesson then when the TA tried to get him back in, he had a tantrum. He then had to wear his PE kit the rest of the day as he refused to get changed and he had no top on as he refused to wear his t shirt.

They said he won't line up either and runs off, also had a tantrum when going to lunch. Also keeps trying to run off at the end of the day.

At the moment I feel he is not being supported, they just keep trying to put him in time out but this doesn't work, I said he needs ignoring but they said that isn't possible. To me it's all down to him being a summer born.

They also complained he's been annoying the school rabbit, this really upset me as at home he loves animals.

AIBU to think they need to do more to help than ring me, as he behaves fine at home so I can't do anything.

Sirzy Thu 10-Oct-13 19:05:48

I don't think saying you can do nothing helps. You and the school need to work together to find out what the problem is and find a way around it.

Shellywelly1973 Thu 10-Oct-13 19:08:52

Sadly this is very common. My ds is 5, June birthday. He struggled through reception class. Now he's in Yr1 its worse. I was told this morning the school are reducing his hours & if I don't agree they will exclude him.

He's fine at home. Follows instructions, understands house rules etc...

Im at my wits end & don't know what to do anymore. I feel for you!

mychildisnotnaughty Thu 10-Oct-13 19:08:54

I've told them strategies that work but they ignore them.

YouTheCat Thu 10-Oct-13 19:09:10

I saw it as my responsibility to prepare my dd (and my ds to some extent though he has severe SN) for starting school.

She knew she would have to line up, sit quietly, listen to the adults. If I saw a child of 4 regularly being unable to take part in the normal school day, I'd be wondering why tbh.

Sirzy Thu 10-Oct-13 19:09:51

But what works for you at home may not work for them or be transferable into a classroom setting.

noblegiraffe Thu 10-Oct-13 19:09:52

School can't ignore a child who refuses to follow instructions. That is just setting up problems later down the line.

How do you get him to comply with instructions at home? Perhaps suggest that to the school?

noblegiraffe Thu 10-Oct-13 19:10:49

Sorry x post. What have you suggested?

Shellywelly1973 Thu 10-Oct-13 19:12:20

I've done everything the school has asked of me. Including camhs & EP who both agree ds doesn't gave obvious sn.

Ultimately I can't control ds if im not with him. He hates school. His name is on waiting lists for any local school but I don't actually think that will help but I don't know what else to do.

EdithWeston Thu 10-Oct-13 19:13:29

Strategies that work at home may not be appropriate for use in larger groups. They cannot "ignore" a child, for that leads to 1, 2, then 5, 6 children, then maybe more, doing their own thing and then chaos follows. And the disruption from some ruins it for all.

Of yo believe our DS is not developmentally ready to be in a group, how about deferring him until January or even April? Perhaps worth talking it through with his teacher?

mychildisnotnaughty Thu 10-Oct-13 19:13:31

not engaging with him works best

Ignoring isn't a suitable in school strategy.

All but one of my DC are summer birthdays, including one on the 30th August. I really don't think its a factor.

You and preschool/nursery should have prepared him properly. You need to do work at home to get him behaving in school. What was he like at preschool?

Sirzy Thu 10-Oct-13 19:14:38

But that isn't possible when you have 29 other children around to. You can't just leave a child like you could at home.

If a child runs out of the hall of course they need to be followed, they can't just be left to run around school as they wish!

PMDD Thu 10-Oct-13 19:14:52

You may be better off doing only mornings for a while so that he gets older and more used to the routine that school requires. Also often in the afternoon schools do more relaxed stuff as the children are more tired. He will soon find out he is missing out on things that are planned for the afternoon and start wanting to join back in.

YouTheCat Thu 10-Oct-13 19:15:09

You can't ignore running off type behaviours - who do you think would be at fault if your ds had an accident at school because he had run off and been ignored?

Spirulina Thu 10-Oct-13 19:15:18

But if he runs off you expect them to not engage/ignore him?

mychildisnotnaughty Thu 10-Oct-13 19:15:38

I can't defer him as I am at collage

PMDD Thu 10-Oct-13 19:16:49

All my children are summer born and non of them behaved like this. My eldest has sn. However, they all went to pre school from 3 and they were a great stepping stone to preparing for school behaviour. How did your son get along at preschool? I think that is quite key.

mychildisnotnaughty Thu 10-Oct-13 19:17:11

He was Ok at preschool, he went through a bad stage once but grew out of it

NotYoMomma Thu 10-Oct-13 19:17:53

ignore a child who goes running off, tantrums and won't put his shirt on? sure, ignoring will be possible and won't affect others.

how can you expect support but then tell them to 'ignore him' when theybare trying to work with you?

PMDD Thu 10-Oct-13 19:19:01

That says a lot. If your son was better able to manage the routines and behaviour requirements at preschool, then he should be able to at school. Why don't you have a quick call to the preschool and see what they say, they may have learned ways to deal with your son that they didn't mention at the time but could pass on to the school teachers. Also, at least you can say to his school teacher that the preschool was able to manage his behaviour.

froken Thu 10-Oct-13 19:19:14

I would take him out of school until he lawfully has to go, he is obviously not coping with school at such a young age.

Spirulina Thu 10-Oct-13 19:19:36

Then college can wait, your ds is more important surely?

BoundandRebound Thu 10-Oct-13 19:19:49

You can't ignore a child in a school setting

You need to work with the school as he's clearly not happy

YoureBeingADick Thu 10-Oct-13 19:20:23

Get a cmer or nursery place- if he isnt ready for school then he shouldnt be there just because its convenient/ cheaper for you

RooRooTaToot Thu 10-Oct-13 19:21:06

Can you do role play at home, playing school with his toys, or reading a story together about starting school? You could also start a reward chart based on his behaviour in school that day with a little reward at the weekend if he gets five stickers.

ilovesooty Thu 10-Oct-13 19:21:07

I agree with other posters. he school has a duty of care and cannot ignore a child who is behaving in a way that endangers his well being and disrupts everyone else. You'll have to find some other strategies to facilitate engagement and learning.

mychildisnotnaughty Thu 10-Oct-13 19:23:08

I can't afford childminder, childcare is paid through my grant I get for being mature student and they won't pay for him while he can be at school.

ShadeofViolet Thu 10-Oct-13 19:24:57

Have you spoken to your DS about needing to line up?

If the school ignored him as you suggest, most parents would then complain that the school was not giving the child adequate attention. They cant win.

Also, they need to teach the other children that that behaviour is not acceptable, before they all start to do it 'because Jimmy does'

MrsWembley Thu 10-Oct-13 19:25:10

Tbf, it's not the school's fault if your child isn't ready and you can't say it's because he's summer born as they would be used to that and prepared to be more lenient. Teachers also have more than your child to worry about and spending more time with your DS because he's not doing as he's asked means less time with the child who sits quietly in the corner, not playing or making friends with anyone.

My DD is a June baby and behaves beautifully at school (better than she does at homehmm), partly because she loves learning but partly because her nursery prepared her for the routine.

Maybe take him out til Easter and in the meantime get him used to behaving for other people. You can't be with him all the time and he needs to know what is expected of him when you're not around.

Shellywelly1973 Thu 10-Oct-13 19:25:42

I feel a bit sorry for the op.

Yes she needs to realise school can't ignore behaviour that carries risk ie running off etc.

Realistically, what can a parent do if their child isn't behaving in school?

I've got a child with complex SN but it was easier to deal with that situation then my youngest ds behaviour.I have done eeverything asked of me. I supported school decisions I didn't agree with but ds behaviour hasn't improved- if anything its deteriorated.

Don't leave college, that a ridiculous suggestion.

If he behaved at preschool he can behave at actual school.

He's a 4 year old, maybe he has sn, but regardless, I doubt his behaviour is unmanageable. The school probably want you to do work with him at home.

Tell him to leave the rabbit at home, sort out some way of influencing his behaviour at school like a reward chart and work with the school. Find out what they suggest you do. Speak to the preschool for useful tips. Ignoring him is not a suitable option

ICameOnTheJitney Thu 10-Oct-13 19:27:13

How is his language and communication OP? does he play well with other kids when he's in a comfortable situation?

nkf Thu 10-Oct-13 19:28:07

This idea that they are fine at home therefore there it's a school problem doesn't really hold up. School is different and they have to learn different rules. I agree with the role play. I had a very young boy and we used to play (endless it seemed at the time) games with stuffed toys. Lining up, sitting on the mat, listening while he (as the teacher) talked. I would make one of the toys "naughty" to see what would happen. One poor bear was permanently excluded. Anyway, it was long winded and rather silly now I see it typed out, but somehow by articulating the rules himself, he seemed to get the hang of them. Hope you find a solution.

YoureBeingADick Thu 10-Oct-13 19:29:44

Well then you need to be doing as other suggest and getting him used to behaving for others, following rules, role play etc. you really cannot just ignore this.

Spirulina Thu 10-Oct-13 19:30:12

Assume ore school wasn't full time? School is.... There's the difference and that is probably your answer

brambleandapple Thu 10-Oct-13 19:30:13

What support have the school put in place? How has this been reviewed? It is the school's job to support your child. They have to spend an additional 6k and demonstrate this before they can apply for High Needs Funding. 6k equates to 12-16 hours 1to 1 support. So this could mean a TA supports him specifically at lining up times and with dressing. There are many strategies they could use, such as a timer with dressing, or even having him come separately into sessions without lining up, joining the line gradually at the back with a TA as he progressed.

Spirulina Thu 10-Oct-13 19:30:24

*pre

YoureBeingADick Thu 10-Oct-13 19:30:59

Also- when was his hearing last tested?

martinedwards Thu 10-Oct-13 19:31:06

Clearly it's all the education system's fault for having kids born in the summer in school.

TWADDLE!!!!

lots of good advice posted already about YOU preparing the child for school.

ignore him you say, OK, lets be the teacher.

one child has thrown off his shirt and run out of class, so we'll ignore him.

what do the other 29 kids do when they see that it's perfectly acceptable to throw off thier shirts and run out of the room?

hmmmmmmm

brambleandapple Thu 10-Oct-13 19:33:57

Clearly it's all the education system's fault for having kids born in the summer in school

Short answer is YES. Children develop at different rates for all sorts of reasons. There are established processes, in place, within the system, which the school can utilise to deal with this.

Ilovemyrabbits Thu 10-Oct-13 19:34:49

Putting the blame on the school is not the solution. Schools are generally used to dealing with young children. They understand that they need time to settle. If your child isn't coping, they will work with you to sort out as much as they can, but you have to accept, they can't ignore his behaviour. They have to do what's best for the school and the other children attending. I understand you're having a bad time of this, but take ownership of the problem and stop blaming the school completely. See what you can do to sort this proactively. The school will have experience and tips they can share and you would be wise to take on any advice you can. I hope it works out well for you both.

brambleandapple Thu 10-Oct-13 19:38:18

Ilovemyrabbits

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/primary/1862438-Teachers-do-not-adhere-to-Statemented-1-to-1-support-do-not-believe-in-sub-levels-make-APP-assessments-up-How-much-of-what-parents-are-told-by-schools-about-teaching-is-a-box-ticking-exercise

Read this thread. Then tell me you feel the same.

Thing is children receive actual Statements of SEN and funding, with support tailored especially for them and schools do not adhere to them

So in this situation how can we expect children to receive the right support? The money is there, the advice is there, the staffing is there but not utilised for the children it is meant for. If they progress from needing the support and it can be tailed off this is not communicated either, so there are less funds available to those that do need it. Mess the whole lot of it!

brambleandapple Thu 10-Oct-13 19:39:29

People seem to prefer to blame the parents or worse of all the children....

Floggingmolly Thu 10-Oct-13 19:45:09

They can't ignore him! It is not down to him being summer born either...
Did he behave like this at nursery?

frogspoon Thu 10-Oct-13 19:59:38

Sorry you're in a difficult position OP, but so is the school. Even if he is young for the year, unless he has a SN, having tantrums and refusing to follow instructions cannot be tolerated. The school cannot ignore his behaviour, because otherwise other children will see that he "gets away with it" and will start acting up too.

They are doing the best thing by ringing you to discuss his behaviour. You need to come up with better strategies and work with the school, not against them, in order to help your child.

brambleandapple Thu 10-Oct-13 20:16:55

You need to come up with better strategies and work with the school, not against them, in order to help your child.

The school needs to come up with better strategies. The OP is a mother not a teacher, she has advised to the best of her ability.

Fairenuff Thu 10-Oct-13 20:18:39

There are lots of things you can do to support your child and work with the school

1) Get him checked medically, especially his hearing

2) Make sure he has a routine at home, dinner, bath, bedtime story, etc.

3) Make sure he is getting enough good quality sleep

4) Make sure he has a good diet. Cut any junk food/sweets out of his daily diet and reserve them for just one day a week

5) Give him some simple responsibilities at home and make sure he does them, such as tidying up after himself, etc.

6) Be consistent with rules and stick to routines so that he understands they are not there to be broken

7) Give him lots of praise for his efforts. If hitting is a problem a school, make sure you don't hit him at home.

8) Tell him that you expect him to follow rules at school

9) Start a stamp chart for him to earn rewards

10) Tell him that if his teacher says he has not followed the rules, he will have a consequence at home (take away favourite toy, etc.)

11) Follow through.

brambleandapple Thu 10-Oct-13 20:30:42

hmm

Fairenuff Who says the OP has not done all that? or is doing all that already? Sounds very much like blame shifting to me...

The OP is managing her child's behaviour at home. The school needs to manage his behaviour.

ThisIsMeToo Thu 10-Oct-13 20:38:54

YY bramble

And why on earth should the child being punished twice? (Your No 10)
And how do you know she isn't doing all that already? She never said she has some issue with behaviour at home did she?

Ilovemyrabbits Thu 10-Oct-13 20:44:06

Brambleandapple I wasn't blaming the parent or the child. I was saying the OP has to take some responsibility to help with this. I know this because I work very closely with young children with SEN in schools. If it was an easy fix, trust me, the school would take it. If they have said there are problems here, they want to work with the parent to sort them. They are taking into account not just the needs of the child, but the other 29 children who may be in that same class.

School will generally look for solutions, but they can't cure problems overnight. They need parental support. In this case, the OP seems keen to blame the school for not taking the same approach she does, when clearly this won't work in a classroom environ. I rarely get annoyed about things at school but when parents just want the school to take full responsibility for a child who is struggling, I get pissed off.

ProphetOfDoom Thu 10-Oct-13 20:55:00

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

pixiepotter Thu 10-Oct-13 20:56:06

I would see if you can find a way of cutting his hours down to half days for a bit.It sounds as though he is totally hyper which makes me think he is too tired and too overstimulated with full time school

brambleandapple Thu 10-Oct-13 20:59:24

They need parental support.

The inappropriate behaviour is happening at school though. The OP is managing his behaviour at home. Support cuts both ways. Shifting the responsibility on to the parent for what happens at school is not support. The OP cannot actively parent whilst she is not present.

Again, how can you even presume your nice little list is not happening at home?

PortHills Thu 10-Oct-13 21:02:46

Have a look on this website and find your local branch:

www.parentpartnership.org.uk/

My DS has had difficulty settling in (not behavioural stuff, just wanting me) and they have been very helpful and good to talk to. Our school has been brilliant, and I won't fault them, but it is useful to talk to a 3rd party who have good ideas too. Plus helped me stop feeling so guilty.

hth

DIYapprentice Thu 10-Oct-13 21:02:56

This is not about him being summer born, if it was they would have experienced it more often. Some children just don't make the transition into school well, regardless of being summer born.

Like it or not, you may have to find a way to make this transition go smoother for your DS. A friend's DS had real problems settling, and they had to go half days for a long time, with one of the parents being there with their child for most of the time. It was the only way they managed.

Ilovemyrabbits Thu 10-Oct-13 21:05:00

I didn't put forward a nice little list. And the OP hasn't commented on whether she is following those actions. She hasn't said too much really. Which means I can only judge this situation to any degree based on the little she has said. And that makes me think she should be working with the school. We're not years down the line here and school are failing. We're barely 6 weeks into the new term of a new school and issues are being raised. They need to be sorted. Parents and school have to work together. Yes behaviour is poor at school, but that is sometimes because stuff isn't in place at home. Or because the child is tired, or over stimulated, or needs more help adapting to structure. That can be done by school to some degree, but has to be done at home too.

I see how these kids struggle first hand. I have been tasked to work with these kids a few times. It's not easy for anyone, but blaming school when you have so little information Bramble is as irresponsible as blaming the parents.

brambleandapple Thu 10-Oct-13 21:05:17

www.ipsea.org.uk/

Also these people can help.

Fairenuff Thu 10-Oct-13 21:07:02

OP has not said that she is doing all that, she has said there is nothing she can do. I have pointed out that there is, in fact, quite a lot she can do.

How is OP managing his behaviour at home? She says she ignores it. That is not possible in school, so OP could be more proactive at home by reinforcing - No, that is not acceptable behaviour.

She could put him into time out, the same as school does, to reinforce that there is a consequence for unwanted behaviour and school is no different to home.

OP wants to find a way forward, to help her son so if she is not doing some or all of the suggestions, she could perhaps try them.

She did come here asking for advice after all.

BrokenSunglasses Thu 10-Oct-13 21:11:49

YANBU to think the school should support your child, but YABVU if you think that they can just ignore a child in a school setting, and YABVU if you think this is down to him being a summer born.

Summer born children have been starting school at 4 for years. I can assure you they do not all have tantrums and refuse to wear clothes. You need to support the school with this, and maybe take things that they do at school into the home so that your ds gets a consistent message.

You sound like you just want them to get on deal with it without any input from you, and I think this attitude would be very wrong.

itsametaphordaddy Thu 10-Oct-13 21:21:45

So all summer borns should be allowed to piss around and behave as they like op? Have you ever looked after 30 children at the same time? On top of looking after them have you ever TAUGHT 30 children at the same time?

Blissx Thu 10-Oct-13 21:31:05

And how do you know she isn't doing all that already? She never said she has some issue with behaviour at home did she?

She does have an issue with behaviour, she just says she ignores it. What are you going to do, OP when he is 15? Still keep ignoring his behaviour then? Sounds like you are focusing a lot on your studies and hoping school will magically deal with your DS on your behalf (from what you have said in your posts).

brambleandapple Thu 10-Oct-13 21:32:23

There are usually TAs in reception. So 30 children to one teacher is not the norm.

The school do have a a Duty of Care to the child. Every child also had a right to receive an education. Even without parental support the LA is responsible for providing an education for this child and the school is accountable to the LA. They should be speaking to the LA if they feel unable to do this.

tshirtsuntan Thu 10-Oct-13 21:37:55

It's tricky, if you defer/take him out does that not give the message that this behaviour results in not having to do what you Don't want to? Ultimately he'll have to go to school? Also just wondering if he behaves fine at home why you have "strategies that work" at all?

BackforGood Thu 10-Oct-13 21:43:35

Yes Bramble - the school care, which is why they've approached the child's Mum to try to work together with her. As everyone has explained, ignoring a child while he does as he wants is just not a safe - nor sensible - policy in a school environment. If it's not happened before he started, then the OP needs to build a relationship with the school so they can work together on supporting her ds.
Being Summer born is not excuse enough for the way he is behaving, otherwise of course around 1/4 of the children in the class would be behaving like that.

brambleandapple Thu 10-Oct-13 21:45:16

tshirt so it is against the norm to ever have to use strategies to manage a child's behaviour at home? hmm I don't think so...children learn and will make mistakes. Adults support them, correct and manage their behaviour.

neunundneunzigluftballons Thu 10-Oct-13 21:51:30

Wow some harsh replies there. My daughter is summer born and struggled in some ways academically not behaviourally it looks like she has dx though. A school principal was recently telling me that the evidence does highlight much greater potential for issues with younger children, they need more support and learning difficulties are more prevalent. So OP I would think the summer born thing does contribute a lot more that the experience of others on the thread highlights. I think you need to work with the school to deal with his behaviour but I definitely think YANBU suggesting the school needs to support him.

brambleandapple Thu 10-Oct-13 21:53:19

tshirt so it is against the norm to ever have to use strategies to manage a child's behaviour at home? hmm I don't think so...children learn and will make mistakes. Adults support them, correct and manage their behaviour.

BrokenSunglasses Thu 10-Oct-13 21:57:06

Bramble, do you honestly think the LA is going to take the school seriously if they haven't even tried to engage the parent in dealing with an issue first? Especially when we are taking about a child who is a mere few weeks into reception?

ilovesooty Thu 10-Oct-13 22:02:26

The other children in the class have a right to an education too - one which is not compromised by one child's behaviour, which needs to be tackled by the home and school working in partnership.

brambleandapple Thu 10-Oct-13 22:03:54

The LA will not take the school seriously if the school has not put in place any strategies to support this child, themselves. Under the funding reform a school has to demonstrate a spend of 6k on additional needs individually for a child before High Needs funding is applied for. This equate to 12 to 16 hours 1 to 1 support. They receive extra funding upfront for this. This gives some idea of what actions lie within a school's powers.

BackforGood Thu 10-Oct-13 22:07:45

I think you are taking a massive leap into the future here Bramble - the child has just started REception. He is younger in the year, which can contribute to struggling a bit to settle, and they are trying to work with the parents to make life better all round for everyone. Absolutely the right thing to do.

Can you imagine the threads on here if someone's dc had all this extra support targeted at him in the first weeks of school, without the parents being involved in the planning of said support shock

schmee Thu 10-Oct-13 22:09:59

OP - I think you should be asking the school, in the most constructive way possible, what they would like you to do. Were they just informing you or were they asking you to do anything? Did you feel they were putting it all in your court? What support would you like from the school?

It's good that you know that this is happening at school, though, as surely you want to talk to your DS about it now?

MrsWembley Thu 10-Oct-13 22:11:28

Where is the OP?

She needs to respond to some of these suggestions - so many here are assuming things on both sides and it's going to end in tears...

brambleandapple Thu 10-Oct-13 22:13:49

I never said the parents should not be involved. Just pointed out that the schools are not powerless to act. Some time with the TA to support dressing and lining up should not be out of the question. The OP said her child has received no support, the school have offered up no strategies, apart from applying sanctions.

Fairenuff Thu 10-Oct-13 22:14:18

The school will be using strategies and supporting the child. They will have explained the rules and consequences. They will reinforce the rules, give lots of praise and rewards for positive behaviour.

They also have a duty to inform the parent if there is a problem that is more than expected for the age of the child. That is what they have done.

I was called in because he ran out of the hall in a PE lesson then when the TA tried to get him back in, he had a tantrum. He then had to wear his PE kit the rest of the day as he refused to get changed and he had no top on as he refused to wear his t shirt

What would you like the staff to do when he refuses to get changed or wear his t shirt OP?

They said he won't line up either and runs off, also had a tantrum when going to lunch. Also keeps trying to run off at the end of the day

He could maybe benefit from a visual timetable, showing the routine and expected behaviour. You absolutely can, and should, reinforce the importance of not running away from staff.

MissBattleaxe Thu 10-Oct-13 22:29:37

OP- interesting username.

There are several negative affirmations in your opening post. "It's all down to him being summer born", "I said he needs ignoring" and "I can't do anything"

Presumably your DS is alone with you at home and his behaviour is "fine" according to you. However, from your description it sounds like he behaves differently in a group. I think you need to stop being defensive and work with the school without making them your enemy. You both want to solve this, so make them your ally not your enemy.

PS one parent's definition of "fine" maybe not be another's.

brambleandapple Thu 10-Oct-13 22:30:53

Fairenuff explaining rules and consequences is not additional support, every child receives this.

Visual timetables might be a place to start, but the OP has not mentioned whether the school are trialling this. A TA may also be able to support a child within the line by holding his hand and taking him in or out first or perhaps last.

brambleandapple Thu 10-Oct-13 22:37:00

Btw a relative of mine's DC has started reception at the same time and half the class cry at lining up to go in, some refuse to do this at all without their parents. So not that unusual.

BrokenSunglasses Thu 10-Oct-13 22:37:51

Bramble you are being ridiculous. It is really quite extreme to be going on about what funding the school should be accessing and spending immediately when when they are only just at the stage of identifying a problem after the initial settling in stage and getting in touch with Mum.

And when you say that the OP says that her child had no support, do you honestly believe that the child has had literally no support.

Doesn't it make a lot more sense to believe that a child who is upsetting a class pet, running out of class lines, throwing tantrums, refusing to get dressed and has been put in numerous time outs might just be taking up quite a large percentage of the teacher and TA's time and attention?

brambleandapple Thu 10-Oct-13 22:40:52

The funding is relative, because the funding for quite a significant amount of additional support is available, immediately, from the school's budget, if needed.

brambleandapple Thu 10-Oct-13 22:44:33

Relevant^ typo

lougle Thu 10-Oct-13 22:45:58

Bringing this around to factual information, the SEN Code of Practice says:

"5:44 The triggers for intervention through School Action could be the teacher’s or others’ concern, underpinned by evidence, about a child who *despite receiving differentiated learning opportunities*:
-makes little or no progress even when teaching approaches are targeted particularly in a child’s identified area of weakness
-shows signs of difficulty in developing literacy or mathematics skills which result in poor attainment in some curriculum areas
-*presents persistent emotional or behavioural difficulties which are not* ameliorated by the behaviour management techniques usually employed in the school
-has sensory or physical problems, and continues to make little or no progress despite the provision of specialist equipment
-has communication and/or interaction difficulties, and continues to make little or no progress despite the provision of a differentiated curriculum." Pp. 52-53

So, it's clear from the SEN Code of Practice that before the child is considered to have SEN, they would have had to exhaust all 'normal' methods of intervention available within the school.

I agree with fairenuff that it is too early to be talking about the need for £6k of funding to be spent before the high needs block is accessed - you're not anywhere close to that.

This may well be simply teething issues (for example, my DD3 loves school but cries almost every morning at the door -she is having a differentiated strategy in the form of a sticker if she comes in smiling). It may not be, but the OP needs to engage with the staff to work out what can be done to support her DS from within the school's normal range of methods.

If the normal range of methods don't work and there are still problems, then it may be worth a shift to School Action.

Fairenuff Thu 10-Oct-13 22:51:54

I imagine that if a child is refusing to line up, he is not going to calmly walk to the line holding the adult's hand.

The school will be using lots of strategies. In fact, getting the parent involved is one of the strategies.

I have four children in my class with behaviour difficulties. Only one qualifies for 1-1 support. The other three need to be managed along with the rest of the class without any additional support other than the class teacher and one TA.

OP does your ds have an IEP? Have you spoken to SENCO about him? If not, I would suggest that you ask for a meeting.

brambleandapple Thu 10-Oct-13 22:53:06

There is no School Action and School Action Plus any longer, just Low Needs (taken from the school's budget) and High Needs support (top up funding applied for).

Yes, they should be exhausting normal methods of intervention. I too believe this is quite possibly teething problems.

However the OP says the school has called her several times, as what they are doing is insufficient for the moment. Low needs includes short term additional help, which may be all this child needs.

FortyDoorsToNowhere Thu 10-Oct-13 22:53:38

If the child gets FSM, there is funding for him.

There is things you can do at home, get a special sticker chart and when he earns 10 stickers in school he can have a treat. I suggested buying the stickers for the teacher ( she said it was fine as she has a bizzilion stickers)

I don't know how tight your budget is or your routines so these are examples.

Popcorn with a dvd, a colouring book with new crayons, magazine, a small toy, extra screen time, Go to the park, soft play.

It worked with my son who has ASD.

BrokenSunglasses Thu 10-Oct-13 22:54:33

You are missing the point.

What on earth would they do with funding before they even have a chat with the Mum?

The OP is strongly implying that she doesn't even the school should be phoning her when her child is having problems, and clearly stating that she can't do anything. Strangely, you seem to be supporting that attitude.

What makes you think they haven't had TAs lining up with him, or that they don't use a visual timetable? Our reception class does that very basic stuff as a matter of course, along with other normal things you do with four year olds. We'd still call a parent in for a chat if a child was consistently displaying the behaviours described.

Calling a parent can be in addition to other things that the school are doing. Spending funding on supporting a child with difficulties and discussions with parents are not two things that are mutually exclusive.

FortyDoorsToNowhere Thu 10-Oct-13 22:58:58

Both DC know if the teacher has a word about them it results in action being taking at home.

Positive words = postive action.
negetive word = negitive action.

Its been harder with DS as it figuring if symtom of his austism or general bad behaviour.

brambleandapple Thu 10-Oct-13 23:00:30

At the moment I feel he is not being supported, they just keep trying to put him in time out but this doesn't work..

I assumed the school would have told the OP of other strategies that they are using. The OP probably feels powerless to help as her advice was not appropriate for a school setting. She probably would have been more reassured if they had informed her of other strategies at their disposal.

lougle Thu 10-Oct-13 23:08:06

"There is no School Action and School Action Plus any longer, just Low Needs (taken from the school's budget) and High Needs support (top up funding applied for)."

brambleandapple, you are confusing funding mechanisms with SEN provision. School Action and School Action Plus are still in place and will be until September 2014, where the designation will change to 'SEN Support' as a catch-all category.

The funding mechanisms have changed and schools now get a higher devolved budget for SEN, from which they are expected to fund SEN Support for children on School Action, School Action Plus and Statements up to the value of £6k plus the AWPU received per child. Nominally, a 'high needs' statement is one that is valued at £10k plus because of this.

The school has called the parent several times because they are expected to work in partnership with parents and a parent can't support the school if they don't know the issue exists.

NCFail Thu 10-Oct-13 23:21:47

For what it's worth...

I am FAR down this line - child has ASD & challenging behaviour... we have been in a terrible school AND now in a very good school.

Challenging behaviour at school is not owned by either party - it is neither the school or the parents responsibility alone.

Communication is key - current school and I have concluded that we can not use the same strategies as they work differently in peer groups but we share information every day. I do a lot of background work around downtime, routines, sleep, etc and school use more formal approaches & interventions.

Neither of us have cracked it but we have it managed most of the time.

You tell a parent that she is solely responsible or she has to take her child out of school to solve the issue then you are basically giving her the message that SHE is to blame for the behaviour and school has no role to play in resolving this issue...

...which they do - WHATEVER is causing the behaviour. Yes even if the underlying cause is that he has no routine or preparation for school because who is better placed to be educating mum on how to help him best. By doing that they will find out that she is either doing it but its making no difference (which might be a red flag) OR mum didn't realise how big a transition it would be and after some support in school & at home it all settles.

Hang in there OP - request a meeting with the teacher and ask to come up with a plan for home & school with a review date. Also suggest a home / school book until the next review.

TheBuskersDog Thu 10-Oct-13 23:41:42

brambleandapple you are talking about SEN and funding, isn't it more likely that this is a 4 year old who doesn't like having to do what an adult asks of them when they are asked to do it, quite possibly because they have never had to do so and they have not been taught that they should do so. In my school there is a whole class of summer-borns and whilst some allowances are made for their immaturity compared to the autumn-born children, they are not all allowed to run around doing what they want.

Parents often say they have no problems with behaviour at home, but we have all seen children behaving in an inappropriate way but whose parents seem to think their behaviour is fine, it's all subjective.

The OP may well be able to ignore her child and not engage with him at home if he is having a tantrum but school staff cannot do this. Most four year olds would not have a tantrum at school when told to do something, but just because the OP's child does doesn't mean he has SEN -he may just not have been taught that it is not appropriate behaviour.

PeppiNephrine Fri 11-Oct-13 00:00:20

Crazy to be in school at that age. I have one the same age and he's in preschool, he's far too young for school.

farewellfarewell Fri 11-Oct-13 00:02:50

sounds too young for school, that's all.

cory Fri 11-Oct-13 07:26:35

It is a tricky situation and I think there are various things you should be doing now, OP.

The first is to speak to your college tutor. Explain that you are going through a bit of a difficult patch and may need to take some time to sort it. In a sense it's not that different from if your ds had fallen ill in the early weeks of the term: it's a situation you need to be involved in.

The second is to speak to the school. Try not to sound defensive, try not to sound defeatist, try to sound as if you see yourself as a member of a team. But don't be afraid to ask (politely) for their suggestions and what measures they have put in place.

Basically everything NCFail said. Just don't forget to communicate with your college too. The more you keep people in the loop the more understanding they will be.

brambleandapple Fri 11-Oct-13 07:41:47

you are talking about SEN and funding, isn't it more likely that this is a 4 year old who doesn't like having to do what an adult asks of them when they are asked to do it, quite possibly because they have never had to do so and they have not been taught that they should do so. In my school there is a whole class of summer-borns and whilst some allowances are made for their immaturity compared to the autumn-born children, they are not all allowed to run around doing what they want.

I talk about SEN and funding because the school has not, as yet, informed the OP of any other strategies (apart from sanctions) at their disposal.

I agree, as stated up thread, this might just be 'teething problems'. However, I also think, if the school believes there may be a problem, they must be proactive with regards to solving it. If they only are informing the OP, and expecting her to have all the answers and take sole responsibility, they are not being proactive or doing all they can that is within their power to solve the issues. If this is the case, and I hope it is not, all they are doing is complaining.

tshirtsuntan Fri 11-Oct-13 08:10:55

bramble just wondered at use of the word "strategy" if a child behaves well at home the occasional distraction or explanation is sometimes necessary.wouldn't call that a strategy! In my experience of caring for other families children and my own there is usually one or two children who take a bit longer to settle into the routines and expectations of school,whether it manifests as the running around and disobeying here or crying. Half term is usually a good point to aim for as almost all will have settled by then,any drastic action ( removal from school, previously unneeded assessments) May be too soon and cause more issues.

brambleandapple Fri 11-Oct-13 08:22:00

Tshirt I'm not advocating 'drastic action' at this stage. My definition of 'strategy' is just taking any consistent positive planned action to solve an issue. So 'distraction' can be a strategy if used with forethought, in a consistent way.

Gileswithachainsaw Fri 11-Oct-13 08:36:20

In all honesty he doesn't sound ready for school. Schools always have the option to defer a term and fine offer the half day option.

I think you need to realise this and work around it somehow. Would it he possible to study from home in the afternoons, can a friend take him? I know college makes it difficult but honestly, you can't dump him into school when he's not ready and expect school to deal with it and do it all for you. Ignoring isn't possible, you need to instigate something else that is possible in a school setting.

wonderingsoul Fri 11-Oct-13 09:11:57

i dont think the problem is that he is to young.

i think the problem is more likely to be that he is used to being ignored at home for bad behaviour, so is expecting the same at school.

that is just not acceptable route at school, and i dont think it allways acceptable at home to.

op i would ask for a meeting and ask what t hey do at school. it could be some sort of chart.. like ours do a rainbow, sun and cloud. they strat at the rainbow each morning and depending on their behaviour they get moved to the sun or cloud, or stay on the rainbow.

the naughty/ time out space.

he sounds like he needs boundries, not to be ignored.

brambleandapple Fri 11-Oct-13 09:13:40

I think schools have to offer full time schooling - if that is what the OP wants. Her child has a right to an education. It is also possible for a child to receive flexible schooling with the parent's agreement.

Gileswithachainsaw Fri 11-Oct-13 09:20:27

Yes I know if the op wants it then they have to offer full time schooling. But should t what the child needs come first. Why make it so traumatic for him if it doesn't have to be. He can stay full time and become a nervous wreck, and struggle with the expectations, or she can make full use of options available and pick one that is right for him. She's hardly going to be able to attend college if she's being called in all the time. U know it's not what she wants to hear but sounds like he needs more time to prepare himself.

BrokenSunglasses Fri 11-Oct-13 09:23:43

Children do not have to be sent to school full time when they are in reception. Schools might encourage it, but the decision belongs to the parent.

It is pointless to compare school with pre school and it is virtually irrelevant whether a pre school could manage negative behaviour in comparison to a school. They are completely different settings, even when they are both following the EYFS.

Some children just aren't ready for school when they have just turned four, and it's down to parents to ensure their child is being cared for and educated adequately. If school isn't right for your child at four years old, then don't sent them, or at least don't send them full time. It is not compulsory.

brambleandapple Fri 11-Oct-13 09:28:37

the decision belongs to the parent

This was my point. He can have full time schooling , with additional support, if needs be, or he can receive flexible schooling.

However the decision is made by the parent.

brambleandapple Fri 11-Oct-13 09:29:46

Of course what is best for the child should be the top priority.

YouTheCat Fri 11-Oct-13 09:35:14

To those of you saying about additional funding - we don't know if the OP's ds has any SN to start with. Also do you think there's a funding fairy? Additional funding is very difficult to come by, even if the school is onboard.

brambleandapple Fri 11-Oct-13 09:37:43

YoutheCat read up thread, the link I made to the funding reform. Schools do now have funding for additional needs which may or may not be 'special'.

brambleandapple Fri 11-Oct-13 09:38:31

The funding reform legislation is operative now.

BrokenSunglasses Fri 11-Oct-13 09:45:23

If you agree that the decision lies with the parent, then why do you appear to be supporting this particular parent when she says she can't do anything and that all the support her child needs educationally should be down to the school?

YouTheCat Fri 11-Oct-13 09:57:51

Yes, there is funding but you still have to identify needs first and do a shedload of paperwork to access it. It isn't instant. And it is still difficult to get.

We have a number of children who need additional help and do not get it, not because the school has the money and is spending elsewhere but because the child has been assessed and deemed not to need 1:1.

brambleandapple Fri 11-Oct-13 10:12:27

BrokenSunglasses In law the decision does lie with the parent whether to have their child not attend school full time at this age.

The parent's powers to support her child's school, in managing her child's behaviour, remotely are limited, as she is not there to intervene.

The settings of home and schools are different, what works at home may not work at school and visa versa. If a parents strategies are working at home, the child is happy and well looked after, the parent is parenting successfully. The circumstances are different at home, problem behaviours may not even arise to the same extent. A parent, in their close relationship with their child, may be able to stop problems escalating, from their outset, almost subconsciously

YoutheCat One of the reasons for the funding reform was to enable schools to be more proactive and respond more rapidly to additional needs. If a child has been has been assessed as not needing 1 to 1, what strategies are you employing to manage their behaviour? Maybe there are some reasonable adjustments that your school could make, to make the learning environment more accessible to all.

YouTheCat Fri 11-Oct-13 10:18:55

As it isn't up to me, none.

Yes, the funding reform is great but it still isn't instant. I work in a school with many children with varying additional needs and behavioural issues and only the most in need get additional funding. The funding isn't a bottomless pit.

Without more information from the OP it is quite difficult to determine what the next step should be but I'd say there is a long road of the OP and the school working together first before any additional funding would be sought.

lougle Fri 11-Oct-13 10:19:34

" brambleandapple Fri 11-Oct-13 09:38:31

The funding reform legislation is operative now."

Yes, but the SEN Reform isn't in live until September 2014. It's the SEN legislation that determines the status of children with SEN. Until September 2014, the existing SEN Regulations remain. They specify three categories of children with identified SEN:

-School Action
-School Action Plus
-Statement

The funding reform has come into place. It is irrelevant to most children. Nothing has changed for them. They won't see anything different in practice. It is simply a more devolved system with lower retention of funds within Local Authorities and more responsibility for schools to administer funding as needed.

BrokenSunglasses Fri 11-Oct-13 10:22:00

Limited maybe, but parents are not completely powerless to influence their child's behaviour at school.

It makes a huge difference if parents engage with the school, sometimes all it takes is communication and a willingness to work together. If we can remind a child that's misbehaving at school that they will be able to go to X place this weekend if I can tell their Mummy that they behaved well today, and that improves their behaviour, then everyone's a winner. If we can give a child a sticker to go on the reward chart they have at home and that works, then brilliant. But that's two strategies that can be very effective only if parents engage and are consistent.

It is good for children to know that all the adults in their lives are on the same page. They can't be expected to behave well if at four years old they are allowed to do anything they want to at home with the only consequence being that they are ignored, when at school the same behaviour results in something completely different.

brambleandapple Fri 11-Oct-13 10:25:11

lougle I understand but the money is there, schools maybe have to wait the same amount of time assessments - that is all.

Schools which already have expertise will be able to put strategies in place. Schools which do not have the expertise maybe need to partnership up with these schools.

I know it is not easy but blaming parents and just leaving a child to fail is not a good option. Some action needs to be taken by the school.

brambleandapple Fri 11-Oct-13 10:33:17

It is good for children to know that all the adults in their lives are on the same page.

But what if they are not? What if the parent is just is not being listened to and the child has an additional and is being sanctioned for behaviour that is outside their own control?

Or what if the school is at fault and the teacher has ill thought out, or inconsistently carried out, class management systems or the quality of teaching is poor?

A double set of sanctions would be just like ganging up on a child, in these case scenarios, bullying them in fact.

I'm not saying this is happening, but it is a possibility. Schools need to engage with the parents, actively listen and respond to their advice, as well as a parent engaging with a school. It should be an equal partnership.

brambleandapple Fri 11-Oct-13 10:34:07

^ additional need (typo)

BrokenSunglasses Fri 11-Oct-13 10:39:31

Yes, that is a possibility.

But it's also a possibility that the parent is just not parenting very well, and needs some guidance from people with more experience of children.

You seem to be determined to jump to the conclusion that the school is at fault in some way and that the parent is entirely blameless.

I agree that it should be an equal partnership with the school and the parents engaging equally with each other, but when you have a parent saying 'AIBU to think they need to do more to help than ring me, as he behaves fine at home so I can't do anything. then it seems more likely to me that the problem lies with the parent more than with the school.

YouTheCat Fri 11-Oct-13 10:56:15

It is highly unlikely that a school would apply for and get funding for a child with behavioural issues unless there are SN (or a good suspicion of it).

At 4 it is unusual for a statement to be in place (and these are even more difficult to get these days anyway). My ds had a statement at 4 because he was very lucky to go to a brilliant nursery who recognised that he would not cope in a mainstream school at all. This was all fast tracked because I put in a hell of a lot of work as did an excellent Ed Psych.

Parent and school have to present a united front.

AllDirections Fri 11-Oct-13 10:57:47

I've known a few parents who have children who apparently behave well at home but not at school. Each of these parents has a totally different idea of 'acceptable' behaviour to what the school and most other parents have.

E.g. A child punching other kids at school so the school obviously sees this as a problem, child punching siblings at home and parent sees it as normal sibling behaviour. Another child who didn't cope with routine or rules at school just didn't have any rules or routine at home so was allowed to do what he liked and expected that at school too. Neither of these children have SEN.

brambleandapple Fri 11-Oct-13 10:58:04

but when you have a parent saying 'AIBU to think they need to do more to help than ring me, as he behaves fine at home so I can't do anything. then it seems more likely to me that the problem lies with the parent more than with the school.

Now who is jumping to conclusions? I explained up thread (10.12 post) why it might be a possibility that the child is fine at home.

The OP received a lot of criticism initially. My posts have countered this. Unless you are directly involved no one will really know who is at fault.

However blame really needs to be taken out of the equation, schools need to educate well without the parent's support. Otherwise they are failing children who have parents who cannot support the school, for whatever reason.

brambleandapple Fri 11-Oct-13 10:59:48

YoutheCat

It is highly unlikely that a school would apply for and get funding for a child with behavioural issues unless there are SN (or a good suspicion of it).

Please read the funding reform. Link up thread. Schools already have more funding delegated to them for additional needs.

wispawoman Fri 11-Oct-13 11:06:24

Why does everyone instantly suggest SN these days? The majority of children do not have them in the sense that they require extra funding and individual support. He is a very small boy who is finding it difficult to deal with a whole new set of stimulations and expectations. He may behave 'fine' at home where he is not confronted with these. The staff will work, hopefully with parental support, to get him to conform to these expectations. Yes, the dreaded word 'conform'. School and society require this, if you don't like it, home school!

brambleandapple Fri 11-Oct-13 11:15:20

wispa Additional support does not have to mean extra funding or 1 to 1 support. I mentioned this in terms of what schools have within their powers to draw upon.

I agree with you, the OP's boy is "...a very small boy who is finding it difficult to deal with a whole new set of stimulations and expectations. He may behave 'fine' at home where he is not confronted with these."

However previous posters were citing his behaviour as something which should not be expected or planned for, which, naturally, leads on to a discussion of additional needs.

The fact is additional needs, or not, the school has the resources to deal with this. Of course they should work in partnership with the parent, genuine equal partnership. However the LA still has the responsibility to provide this child with an education, regardless of his parent's actions. The school is accountable to the LA.

BrokenSunglasses Fri 11-Oct-13 11:42:29

I'm not jumping to conclusions by saying I don't think it's acceptable for a parent to think that a school shouldn't contact them when they have concerns.

You are right that blame shouldn't be in the equation, but whether you call it blame or identifying a root cause of a problem is irrelevant. The school need to have good communication with this parent to ensure the best outcome for the child, and if a parent is blocking that, and ignoring the fact that school cannot leave a child to behave how they want to, then they simply aren't doing what is in the best interests of the child.

The OP may think the child is fine at home because she expects very little of him, but either way, they child is not fine at school and the parent needs to be involved in dealing with that problem.

schools need to educate well without the parent's support. Otherwise they are failing children who have parents who cannot support the school, for whatever reason

I agree that schools need to educate well, but I think you are being unrealistic if you think that education is entirely down to schools. It isn't. Parents will always be children's first and most important educator. Parents have responsibility for their children too, it is not acceptable to just say that schools have to do well whether or not they have parental support. It's just never going to happen, school resources and time are not limitless, and they are not parents.

differentnameforthis Fri 11-Oct-13 11:55:38

The LA will not take the school seriously if the school has not put in place any strategies to support this child, themselves

Which it sounds like they have tried, but failed/are struggling with, hence asking Mum for help!! Call me stupid, but I would have thought that most teachers would be reasonably used to kids of this age running off, refusing to participate etc & have their own ways to deal with it, so I see the calling the parents is a last resort, as NOTHING they have tried is working!

The op suggesting they ignore him is a daft cop out! Not to mention dangerous..what if he ran into the road, do they ignore him them? hmm The only way ignoring would work is if they looked him in a safe space, THAT isn't going to happen.

I ignore my dd when behaviour is less than desirable, but I wouldn't suggest her school do it.

4 is very to be in school, here they start reception at 5 & I must admit that both my girls have handled it well, far better than if they were 4.

Full time school is HUGE! He is probably exhausted too, which won't help.

brambleandapple Fri 11-Oct-13 11:57:24

Broken

Agree with you. Except schools do have responsibility to educate. Parents have responsibilities too. But LA's have to provide an education even when the parental support is lacking and schools are accountable to them. Parent's time and resources are not limitless either and they certainly cannot be in at two places at once, when their child is at school the school is in loco parentis.

If parents are a child's 'first and most important educators', shouldn't they be listened to and treated with respect? Their knowledge and expertise valued?

brambleandapple Fri 11-Oct-13 12:04:53

Redaing between the lines 'ignoring' may not be such a 'daft' strategy altogether if confrontation that causes an escalation in inappropriate behaviour. Of course it would be better to be able to avoid any triggers for the bad behaviour in the first place....that is if the child finds control difficult in confrontational situations.

YouTheCat Fri 11-Oct-13 12:05:14

I have read it. More available funding does not mean that a school will get allocated that funding for a behavioural issue in such a young child, before other options have been explored.

He has been in school for 6 weeks. It takes a hell of a lot longer than that to get anything sorted out. At 4, if there are no SN, it will be likely seen as an issue of maturity and learning to settle.

brambleandapple Fri 11-Oct-13 12:05:21

^Reading (typo)

YouTheCat Fri 11-Oct-13 12:06:52

Ignoring is not always possible in a school. If a child is endangering themselves or others do you expect the members of staff to just let him run riot?

brambleandapple Fri 11-Oct-13 12:07:46

YoutheCat School management issue though. Do not have to apply for additional funding externally (unless top up is required). So who is responsible for school management? The school and its Governors I would have thought.

YouTheCat Fri 11-Oct-13 12:09:52

You cannot avoid all triggers for behaviour and there is no way the OP's child is going to get through school with no confrontation of his behaviour.

What do you suggest the staff do with the other 20 odd children while everyone runs after OP's ds? If he has a problem with getting changed do you suggest they just let all the children remain in PE kit for the rest of the day. What about at playtime if the child isn't dressed warmly enough - should they then keep them in?

YouTheCat Fri 11-Oct-13 12:12:05

Staff costs money. School budgets are squeezed the same as everything else these days. That would require additional staffing and so would require additional funding and we come full circle.

You cannot expect a school to deploy its staff around one 4 year old.

BrokenSunglasses Fri 11-Oct-13 12:20:42

If parents are a child's 'first and most important educators', shouldn't they be listened to and treated with respect? Their knowledge and expertise valued?

Absolutely! But if the parents don't want to engage then the school doesn't have much chance to listen. They called the OP because they wanted to communicate, and the OP doesn't seem to want to give them the opportunity to listen.

And there's not much point listening when the only thing the parent is willing to offer is completely inappropriate in a school setting.

Confronting already inappropriate behaviour may escalate the situation for that particular child, but ignoring it is highly likely to escalate a situation for 29 other children who are too young to understand that adults think it's ok for one child to run out of the line and not get dressed but it's not ok for them.

Schools have to do certain things to keep some semblance of control. They cannot just ignore every child who is refusing to get dressed, or ignore every child that is tormenting the rabbit. They have to intervene for the child's own good.

I8toys Fri 11-Oct-13 12:41:31

In my opinion age has nothing to do with it.

DS1 was 4 in August when he started school with no problem.

However DS2, one of the oldest in class when he started, has had the same problems as you describe - not lining up etc. First time I heard there was a problem I was straight into the teacher and then head of year. We worked out together a battle plan to try and get him to behave. DS2 is quite bright, very inquisitive and gets bored easily - therefore doesn't like the queuing.

We had a behaviour chart that the teacher would fill in each week so that I knew what was going on at school every day and we then could discuss this after school with DS. This was coupled with a behaviour chart at home and reward for good behaviour. The teachers gave him some responsibilities in class and it has eventually worked although it has taken time. He is in KS2 now.

It is not just the school that has to support your child but you. You need to be pro-active and try to get on top of it from the start. It is still early days but work with the teacher to figure out what is best for him.

brambleandapple Fri 11-Oct-13 13:56:44

I'm all for parents contributing, a good equal working partnership. Where this does not happen the first point of call should not be 'blame the parents'. Blaming the parents is not an excuse for failing a child.

Even if school's budgets are squeezed, more funding has been delegated to schools for additional needs. So additional needs needs to be given a higher priority within schools. Schools do need to be proactive. There are mainstream schools which already have good provision in place, should the need arise. Perhaps this school needs to be talking to some of these schools.

Schools have had to deal with additional needs for years. They should be well versed in the strategies that can help. Maybe a rethink of how teaching is organised in Reception would make the transition a more gentle one and generally more accessible to a greater number of children.

Floggingmolly Fri 11-Oct-13 14:08:27

The additional needs funding is a moot point at this stage, surely? hmm
Op has not mentioned any concerns about the child actually having any special needs as far as she's aware.
Why he has had is a lifetime (literally) of doing as he pleased. When any behaviour failed to impress his mum, she simply ignored it, so he's now struggling with the notion that this isn't, after all, how the world works.
It'll be a huge earnings learning curve for him, but it isn't an additional need in the real sense; and the op very definitely needs to involve herself in finding a solution.

YouTheCat Fri 11-Oct-13 14:19:00

Bramble, if he is the only child having a problem then why should the school reorganise Reception around one child. It is not feasible or practical.

Every child is different. But every child has to learn to fit into some routines in order to get on in life generally.

brambleandapple Fri 11-Oct-13 14:20:22

When I talk about needs which are additional it simply means needs which are in addition to the norm. This does not relate into the route cause for this need. I didn't say SN or even SEN, just additional need, which schools have funding to deal with, whatever the cause might be.

brambleandapple Fri 11-Oct-13 14:27:06

YoutheCat There are reasonable adjustments that can be made, that only benefit one child, or a handful of children but do not have any detrimental effect on the other children, such as starting more gently with the new routines and adding them in gradually, instead of all at once, so the children are less 'bombarded' with the new, for example. Maybe they would not have to change fully for PE at this stage. Just a change of shoes for example. Maybe limit the lining up as much as possible. Maybe organise a managed handover for a child who find the transition from their parent to school and visa versa difficult (5 minute job). All possibilities.

In fact making the adjustments would benefit all the children as they would not have to put up with the disruptive behaviour.

helsbels03 Fri 11-Oct-13 14:31:52

I would make an appointment to speak to sendco. He is obviously having issues at the moment for whatever reason. He cannot be ignored at school it is just not possible or appropriate to ignore a child. You are his mum and know him best but you have to work with the school moving schools will only take the problem with him , unless of course you feel the school aren't being

helsbels03 Fri 11-Oct-13 14:34:47

Sorry-
Understanding. You don't want him to get the reputation as being the naughty boy and you the parent who won't work with the school. It is nearly half term, done children take longer to settle than others but I think the summer- born thing us an excuse. I have no doubt it effects readiness for reading and writing but not behaviour to this extent. By the way, yes I have been that reception teacher working with 30 children. I have also been the parent called in to deal with dd2 behaviour at school.

BrokenSunglasses Fri 11-Oct-13 14:45:59

Bramble, stopping children getting changed for PE would have a detrimental effect on all the other children though, as would making one member of staff available to the child when he comes into school.

They have only been at school for six weeks, they have only just had enough time to identify a longer term problem, let alone employ another member of staff. The TA that they already have needs to be available to all children, not be monopolised by just one.

Starting school is a big deal for every child, and it is well within the realms of normal to still need to assist children with the coming into school routine, reminding them where to put their water bottle, book bag, helping them with coats etc. an entire class of children will miss out if the member of staff who usually helps with these things is having to focus completely on one child to give them a managed handover for those five minutes.

As for getting changed for PE, it is normal for there to be at least one or two children in reception that can't get changed on their own. Even the ones that can get changed on their own often need to be taught to turn things the right way round, or to put tights on, or do up buttons on pinafores. It is usually at least half term before my reception class get more than 1/2 an hour of PE lesson, because the majority of the time allocated is taken up with getting changed. If we don't help them learn how to change themselves straight away, it will be Christmas before they can have a proper PE lesson while wearing the rights clothes. Plus, school uniform just isn't suitable clothing for some of things hound children do in PE.

YouTheCat Fri 11-Oct-13 14:47:18

Have you worked in a school, Bramble? School is all about lining up. You can't get from one activity to another with 30 children without lining up.

And getting changed for PE is a health and safety issues for some activities.

brambleandapple Fri 11-Oct-13 14:59:38

YoutheCat I have worked in schools before and with large groups of children for play activities and on residential trips, both professionally and in a voluntary capacity.

YoutheCat I mention the changing for PE because some schools don't fully, for the first term of reception.

lougle Fri 11-Oct-13 14:59:43

One question which hasn't been answered is whether the OP has tried to address any of these things at home.

For instance, my DD3 doesn't have SN (DD1 does, goes to special school and had 1:1 at mainstream preschool, etc), but she does have big issues with seams. She hates them. Before starting school she would only wear leggings with the labels cut out. She had rationed down her t-shirts to avoid any relief stitching, ruffles, edging, etc.

We haven't had an easy settling. She's had tears at the doors on most days. She's summer born. After the first week, when we'd had tears and tantrums consistently, something had to change. So I bought her seamless socks.

Seamless socks worked for one day. Then, the polo shirt label that had so far not been noticed because the socks were so annoying, became annoying. So I sewed down the polo shirt labels to make them flat.

Then, the pinafore label poked through the polo shirt. I sewed that down.

School also tackled it by making a 'smiley DD3' chart - sticker if she came in smiling.

She's starting to smile when she goes in each day.

It's a partnership and it won't do any good if one side of the partnership says 'well they're fine with me.'

Just like it doesn't help when my DD2 is stressed at home because school is a hard environment for her, and the school says 'she's fine here' - she's holding it all together at school and explodes at home.

Neither is beneficial to the child and the child should be the focus.

YouTheCat Fri 11-Oct-13 15:04:02

Bramble, that's just not the same as managing a class of 30 all day. Yes, I'm sure there are some small measures that can be undertaken by the school but, given the nature of the behaviour, I really don't think that is going to be enough.

Too many concessions to bad behaviour sends the wrong message to the other children.

brambleandapple Fri 11-Oct-13 15:08:21

Lougle I just feel for the mother. The boy might be fine with her. The environment will be different, so he might not get upset to the same degree. She probably feels like she is called to solve the situation with the school putting forward no useful suggestions.

Alas sticker charts or rewards and sanctions do not work to motivate all children, they just provide more stress. I do have experience of that. What these children actually need is some of the stress to be removed.

lougle Fri 11-Oct-13 16:17:35

brambleandapples, no one is saying that you can't feel for the Mother. That doesn't mean that the best response is to tell the Mother that the school should be spending money on sorting her child out. I appreciate that your overall intention is that she should be able to get support for her DS, but the issues go wider than that.

It may be that it is just teething issues. It may be that he is not used to demands and is used to being able to 'come around' to demands in his own time - if the parenting style is one of co-operative negotiation and a 'never say no' type style, then the child in question isn't going to be used to someone saying 'right, wear this, now.'

I know a fair few parents who feel that their role is to guide their child by being their eternal positive influence. That means never saying no, always explaining why they'd like the child to do x,y,z and never forcing them to, etc. If they hurt another child, the other child is told to 'just ignore x's behaviour because he's not feeling happy on the inside right now...' It's fine. It's ok to make that choice. However, when you then go to an environment where your child is not the centre of the universe, they may struggle (although these parents would say that their self esteem has been so bolstered by this style of parenting that they'll take everything in its stride).

The point I'm making is that you can't decide someone has SN because they aren't fitting in with a system, immediately. You can't decide the school isn't doing enough because they are asking the parent for help. You can't decide the child should have 1:1 support just because they are being disobedient and disruptive. You need to do the ABCs:

Antecedent
Behaviour
Cause

Work out what the issue is, then deal with it.

brambleandapple Fri 11-Oct-13 16:27:20

We agree on that lougle I am not deciding the child has SN, this is why I used the term 'additional needs' not SN. I do not advocate overly permissive parenting, at all.

I did challenge the notion that the school were 'powerless' to act, because they are not. I did challenge the assertion that the parent was to blame, because no one knows her circumstances well enough.

lougle Fri 11-Oct-13 16:51:32

He doesn't even have established 'additional needs'. You may be aware (or possibly not) that 'additional needs' is a term favoured by some as an alternative to SN and in fact is the term officially adopted by Scotland in their SEN strategies.

brambleandapple Fri 11-Oct-13 17:03:35

lougle In our LA additional needs is not used in that manner (not the same as Scotland), it covers children who receive FSM and for whom English is an additional language. Also it is used to describe needs which are simply additional to the norm, where no diagnosis of SN has been given, no SEN established.

So with my working definition, additional needs do not need to be established, they are just there. If the school decides to spend some of their budget to cater for these needs, they can do, within the purposes of the new funding legislation. It is the reason why the additional funding has been delegated back to the schools.

It is a decision for the school's SMT.

ConsideringTheFuture Fri 11-Oct-13 17:06:36

To think that this is 'all down to being summer born' is bu. He is 4. Plenty of children start part time school at 3 and plenty of others at 4 and this behaviour is not shown.

lougle Fri 11-Oct-13 18:06:15

I still think it is unhelpful to think of this as a funding issue or that the school 'should be spending money on this.'

The issue is that you have a child with school behaviour that either:

a)is not seen at home
or
b) is managed differently at home and therefore averted
or
c) is allowed at home and isn't seen as negative

They need to work together to find out which and decide what to do about it.

brambleandapple Fri 11-Oct-13 18:40:00

lougle I think it is a funding issue, because everything is. It determines staffing, outside support and expertise, training and resources such as nurture rooms. Schools complain when they haven't enough funding.

However also I do think parents and schools should work together. I have not disputed this at all during this thread. Only highlighted the need for an equal, mutually respectful, working partnership.

Floggingmolly Fri 11-Oct-13 18:52:03

A school's "funding" isn't a bottomless pit, bramble, to be plundered for Nurture rooms for children who likely as not have simply never been expected to follow instructions or do anything they didn't fancy doing before.
The onus is on the parent to send their child to school with some understanding of what's expected of him, behaviour wise.

brambleandapple Fri 11-Oct-13 18:59:40

I not saying school's funding is a bottomless pit Floggingmolly. However schools have had more funding delegated to them for additional needs and they need to be prioritising this money appropriately.

Floggingmolly Fri 11-Oct-13 19:09:47

As lougle has already explained; additional needs is the new, presumed to be less offensive term for what were called special needs before it became a term of abuse.
Children resisting the rules and rituals of school routine do not have official additional needs.

brambleandapple Fri 11-Oct-13 19:18:06

Flogging I don't mind what you want to call this particular set of needs. I have given you a working definition of my usage. It is up to the schools to make use of the extra funding available to them. It could be used to cater for needs such as the OP has described.

Bottom line is this child has a right to an education and the school has to be showing that they are doing all they can, within their power (they should be putting 6k aside for additional needs or possible SEN), to cater for his needs.

Anything less is failing their Duty of Care, their responsibilities as an education provider.

NotYoMomma Fri 11-Oct-13 19:19:57

why should they throw money at this child though who as far as we know has no additional needs?

surely this early in the game the school and Mum need to work together (yes mum, including suggesting ideas, preparing at home rather than saying 'he is fine here it is your problem') to combat this first. you dont often see a problem and instantly chuck cash at it like a plaster, you need to have a good look as to why it needs a plaster in the first place and see if you can fix the problem and stop it reoccuring

YouTheCat Fri 11-Oct-13 19:22:07

But, Bramble, there might well be extra funding available but that still doesn't say they would get granted any of it. The schools still have to justify why they need it and apply for it.

They are not failing in their duty of care at all. The child has been at school for 6 weeks. Do you even realise how long it takes to arrange assessments and ed psychs? They don't just turn up the week after you've asked for them. In fact you'd be lucky to see one after a 6 month wait.

brambleandapple Fri 11-Oct-13 19:23:13

NotYoManner They should be utilising resource because not all parents are able to adequately support the school from home.

These children, with this particular set of parents, still have a right to an education.

brambleandapple Fri 11-Oct-13 19:26:07

YouTheCat they have the funding upfront, in their budget, 6k individual spend, on top of AWPU. They do not need to apply for this. I thought you said you read the new funding legislation?

brambleandapple Fri 11-Oct-13 19:28:59

The initial funding lump sum may depend on lots of factors, Prior Attainment, FSM, School Expansion, sparsity....

YouTheCat Fri 11-Oct-13 19:35:23

So you think they should use that 6k for the benefit of one child? hmm

If it is for additional needs it will probably go towards a Lexia programme or some such thing that will benefit the whole school.

NotYoMomma Fri 11-Oct-13 19:38:14

but this OP hasnt even tried to support tye school at home, she has told them to ignore him which they CAN NOT DO

lets face it, if OP is having to ignore her childs behaviour anyway then he obviously isnt as well behaved at home as she would like us to think.

she should maybe stop ignoring her child and help the school with the root cause, throwing money at this with no parental input is a recipe for failureits like when parents dont read with their kids or ensure homework is done and then get pissed at the school because 'thats what school is for'

FanjoForTheMammaries Fri 11-Oct-13 19:38:20

SN or not (and my DD was like this at preschool because she had undiagnosed autism not because of my parenting. .nice to know the parents were judging my parenting as lacking) it's a bit rich to be ripping the OP apart and saying she is an ineffective parent on a thread where she is looking for support, flogging.

The school should definitely be working with the parent here and adapting their routines so that the child can learn to get used to them.

brambleandapple Fri 11-Oct-13 19:40:13

YouTheCat preventing disruption can benefit a whole class of children. Behavioural needs can be considered SEN or additional needs, which can be about supporting just one child, out of a class of 30. These needs by definition are held by a minority of children. The extra funding delegated to schools is for needs such as these.

So the short answer is yes.

rumbleinthrjungle Fri 11-Oct-13 19:40:21

A lot of the times you mention OP when he's struggling are transitions between one thing and the next. A visual schedule so he can see everything that's coming and what's happening next may help.

What does the teacher think he's communicating with the behaviour? Is there a message? Like 'I need attention' or 'I'm worried about this', or 'I don't want to do that' or no apparent trigger which might be excitement, anxiety, overstimulation? If she can get a feel for the message it might help pin down the strategies that will work.

Sorry you're handling this, must be very worrying.

FanjoForTheMammaries Fri 11-Oct-13 19:41:33

Also there is a place for ignoring behaviour. .it can be a technique in itself so I wish people would stop sticking their pitchforks in OP and pillorying her as an ineffective parent.

YouTheCat Fri 11-Oct-13 19:43:27

But the child has been there 6 weeks, Bramble. Can you not see that spending 6k without trying other things first is not a sensible use of resources at this stage?

And yes, ignoring some behaviours can be effective. But I really don't think it is practical when dealing with a 'runner' in a school environment.

Fairenuff Fri 11-Oct-13 19:45:37

they have the funding upfront, in their budget, 6k individual spend, on top of AWPU. They do not need to apply for this

Are you saying that the HT has £6,000 per child already in the budget, ready to spend?

Or are you saying that the HT has a total of £6,000 for the whole school, already in the budget, ready to spend?

I'm not clear on that point.

Interesting that the OP has chosen to ignore this thread rather than come back and discuss some of these issues.

brambleandapple Fri 11-Oct-13 19:47:04

YouTheCat The child may only need extra support temporarily...supporting the child will prevent a negative association of school being acquired by the child, which would only cause further problems.

If they need the support more permanently, providing it initially, will prevent problems from escalating and will allow provision to be put in place more permanently.

FanjoForTheMammaries Fri 11-Oct-13 19:47:16

Running to me is clearly a stress response and not a naughty one.

FanjoForTheMammaries Fri 11-Oct-13 19:48:59

No wonder the OP has run away. .people are blaming her parenting

YouTheCat Fri 11-Oct-13 19:50:31

Fanjo, I can see why you'd say that. My ds would have done the same at that age as he has ASD. But they need to establish if there is a reason for his behaviour. I have known some kids who do that because it's bloody good fun to make the over weight TA chase you all over school. grin

Fairenuff Fri 11-Oct-13 19:51:54

But people are not blaming the OP, or ripping her apart. There have been lots of helpful suggestions on this thread. All posters are saying is that OP should be working with the school to help her son.

What's so wrong with that? What's wrong with pointing out something which the OP herself might not have considered. Obviously she hadn't really thought through the 'just ignore him' strategy that she uses at home.

That's ok, no-one is saying she hasn't done anything right, just that there are other things to consider too.

brambleandapple Fri 11-Oct-13 19:54:39

Fairenuff the funding that LAs previously retained for a certain level of additional needs has been delegated to schools.

To apply for High Needs Funding top up a school now has to demonstrate an individual spend of 6k, on top of the AWPU, on additional need.

LAs vary in how they determine the initial funding to schools. 6K extra will not be given to a school for each and every child upfront, since only a small proportion of children have additional needs.

I have posted a link to the legislation details up thread.

brambleandapple Fri 11-Oct-13 19:57:16

So significantly more than 6k on additional needs for the whole school.

YouTheCat Fri 11-Oct-13 19:59:41

It won't be given without a hell of a lot of paperwork first. Where I work that 6k is already well allocated and more.

brambleandapple Fri 11-Oct-13 20:04:55

I would advise you to engage with your SMT YouTheCat. Not get engaged to them though, awful thought!

eddiemairswife Fri 11-Oct-13 20:12:40

Perhaps the fact is that he is not mature enough to be in school full-time.I realise that some Summer born 4 year-olds arrive in Reception reading Tolstoy and doing differential calculus, but many of them don't. You only have to read the threads on here about distressed children clinging to mummy, and little ones wetting and soiling themselves to understand that. He'll probably be fine eventually, but in the meantime I feel sorry for his Mum who was hoping to get underway with her college course.

Fairenuff Fri 11-Oct-13 20:18:21

To apply for High Needs Funding top up a school now has to demonstrate an individual spend of 6k, on top of the AWPU, on additional need

So the school can spend £6,000 on additional needs before they apply for extra (which there is no guarantee they will get).

£6,000 for the whole school? To be used for all children with additional needs?

In my school, based on the additional needs that you listed, such as EAL, that would mean at least 30% of the children in the school would qualify for extra support. That does not include those children already on extra funding.

That would mean that each child with additional needs, in my school, could have about £700 a year spent on them before the school reached the limit of £6,000.

£700 does not go very far in paying for a 1-1 worker.

merrymouse Fri 11-Oct-13 20:22:35

Sorry haven't read whole thread, so sorry if I have missed something.

Anyway, although I think it is important that parents work with schools, I also think that it is very harmful for a child to be in an environment where people who are in charge of him (the school) are giving the signal that they can't cope and that the child is in charge until the cavalry (parent) is called in.

Children do not suddenly display this kind of behaviour for no reason. and there are a significant number of children like the OP's child. If teachers can't cope with this, there is something very wrong with the school system, whether it is too many children in a class, a badly managed environment (e.g. classrooms with poor acoustics, too many flickering computer screens, too much noise at lunch time), too little training, too many part-time staff or too high staff turn over.

The current system seems to be that parents with resources home school/relentlessly badger the LA/privately educate children who have difficulty coping in school, and other children are left to fail (at the expense of children in their class who may have less obvious and loud difficulties).

So yes OP, the school should be dealing with it, but more than that the government needs to stop faffing around with history curriculums and address this wide spread problem.

FanjoForTheMammaries Fri 11-Oct-13 20:23:51

Some people are blaming her. That is probably enough to make her feel.rubbish

brambleandapple Fri 11-Oct-13 20:24:32

Fairenuff yes! the school has to demonstrate this spend before High Needs funding is applied for.

I don't know what funding your school receives upfront. Did they participate in the LA's consultation? Have you looked at their budget?

Have you read the funding reform, have the school advised the teachers or the LA your school?

Fairenuff Fri 11-Oct-13 20:24:36

Who is blaming her?

FanjoForTheMammaries Fri 11-Oct-13 20:35:45

Well i did address floggingmolly before who was going on about ineffective parenting and lack.of boundaries.

lougle Fri 11-Oct-13 20:38:35

No, no. There are crossed wires here.

The AWPU (Age-Weighted-Pupil-Unit) is a figure that is given per child to the school. All children get it.

The SEN block funding is a devolved budget, given to schools and based on a formula based on, among other things, deprivation.

This is with the exception of special schools, who automatically get £10,000 per child because each child is deemed to have high needs by virtue of MS school being unsuitable for them.

The actual SEN Budget for a school is not huge.
Take Swanmore Primary School

426 on roll. Total SEN Budget £47,257. Total per pupil: £110.93

Now, not every child will need SEN Support. Not by a long shot. But, do the maths:

If they spent £6000 per child who needed 'support' then they could only support 7 children out of 426.

Not everyone who needs SEN Support needs £6000 spent on them. Additionally, if a school finds that they are 'overburdened' with children with SEN and run out of funds, they can apply for extra funding.

My point is, that you can't just expect a school to spend their SEN budget on a child who hasn't adjusted to a new environment after just 4 weeks.

If the child had struggled through nursery a more extreme reaction may be needed, but as the OP has said that he didn't, apart from a blip, then it's likely a transient difficulty.

brambleandapple Fri 11-Oct-13 20:43:44

I actually think schools, in practice, will have to rethink the transition in reception, to make it more accessible for more children.

And rethink some of their behaviour policies....expectations and generally their other spending.

Fairenuff Fri 11-Oct-13 20:44:57

This post?

Floggingmolly Fri 11-Oct-13 14:08:27

The additional needs funding is a moot point at this stage, surely?
Op has not mentioned any concerns about the child actually having any special needs as far as she's aware.
What he has had is a lifetime (literally) of doing as he pleased. When any behaviour failed to impress his mum, she simply ignored it, so he's now struggling with the notion that this isn't, after all, how the world works.
It'll be a huge learning curve for him, but it isn't an additional need in the real sense; and the op very definitely needs to involve herself in finding a solution.

This is not having a go at the OP, it is pointing out what might be causing the problems and the poster has said that it will be a huge learning curve for the child. Which it will be.

Fairenuff Fri 11-Oct-13 20:46:53

bramble I am only talking about the £6,000 that you brought up.

You said that this money was available already in the budget to spend on OP's son. So I was illustrating that, in my school, he would only qualify for about £700.

brambleandapple Fri 11-Oct-13 20:49:56

Why is this Fairenuff?

lougle Fri 11-Oct-13 20:51:34

Nobody is blaming the OP. Some people are questioning the attitude that a school should sort the child out themselves because the parent doesn't have an issue at home.

FanjoForTheMammaries Fri 11-Oct-13 20:54:05

"A school's "funding" isn't a bottomless pit,bramble, to be plundered forNurture roomsfor children who likely as not have simply never been expected to follow instructions or do anything they didn't fancy doing before.The onus is on the parent to send their child to school with some understanding of what's expected of him, behaviour wise"

This post?

FanjoForTheMammaries Fri 11-Oct-13 20:56:00

NotYoMommaFri 11-Oct-13 19:38:14

but this OP hasnt even tried to support tye school at home, she has told them to ignore him which they CAN NOT DOlets face it, if OP is having to ignore her childs behaviour anyway then he obviously isnt as well behaved at home as she would like us to think.she should maybe stop ignoring her child and help the school with the root cause, throwing money at this with no parental input is a recipe for failureits like when parents dont read with their kids or ensure homework is done and then get pissed at the school because 'thats what school is for'

Or the above? Pretty blaming, no?

brambleandapple Fri 11-Oct-13 20:56:12

6K equates to 12 to 16 hours if 1 to 1 support. If you change this to small group support the cost goes down dramatically, this is only one example.

Children often do not need additional support continuously throughout the day, often they need support at transition moments. Changing these, transition experiences, lining up, changing for PE, drop off and pick up could significantly alter the school experience for these children.

FanjoForTheMammaries Fri 11-Oct-13 20:58:29

If I was the OP and I read the posts I quoted above I would feel pretty blamed.

NotYoMomma Fri 11-Oct-13 21:04:13

I ignore my own dd at times, its the only way to stay sane ime

what I am saying is now it has been brought to her attention that it is causing issues at school, the behaviour/ current strategies used by op May now need to be reconsidered for the benefit of both her child at school and everyone else.

what my point was was not to blame OP for causing this, but that now she should start to engage more with school to try and find the cause and other potential solutions.

sticking to the 'just ignoring him' stance at this stage without at least trying to meet half way isnt going to help.

the school may want to assess for additional needs and want to onow how he copes if different methods are tried etc, we dont know anything at this point really other than so far OP and others do not thibk he has SEN

even OP thinks it is a more summer born issue than a Sen one

FanjoForTheMammaries Fri 11-Oct-13 21:05:43

Well that is certainly putting it more kindly smile

Fairenuff Fri 11-Oct-13 21:06:30

Because at least 40% of the school are EAL and therefore, under the criteria you specified, they have additional needs.

lougle Fri 11-Oct-13 21:08:33

If the OP was phrased in a way that asked how she could support her child, it might get different replies Fanjo. That's all that people are saying.

NotYoMomma Fri 11-Oct-13 21:09:56

i've got a very bad habit of looking a cunt on the internet and not explaining myself properly wink

FanjoForTheMammaries Fri 11-Oct-13 21:11:46

Notyo..but you have a soft centre smile

brambleandapple Fri 11-Oct-13 21:11:57

Depends on your LA's policy though Fairenuff. How much do you know of the fine detail of where exactly your school's funding is spent?

Fairenuff Fri 11-Oct-13 21:19:47

bramble you said that the school had £6,000 already in it's budget to spend on additional needs, regardless of any other funding they might already be getting.

I am telling you that, if that is the case, about 40% of children at my school would qualify for 'additional needs' under the criteria you specified. Not SN or SEN or any other allocated or non-allocated funding.

Just going on what you have told me, OP's ds could qualify for about £700 a year. If he was later diagnosed or otherwise considered eligible for extra support, funding would be sought through the usual channels.

I am only going on what you have been saying throughout this thread, about the £6,000 available.

Do you think he would qualify for extra funding, based on what you know from the OP? I certainly don't, not at this early stage.

brambleandapple Fri 11-Oct-13 21:28:56

Fairenuff I never actually said that. I was ver carefully to point out that a school is expected to demonstrate an individual spend of 6k before High Needs Funding is applied for.

You would have to look at individual LA policy to find out what initial funding individual schools received on top of the AWPU.

Just to be extra sure I linked to the legislation. My point is there is a portion of money that has been delegated to schools from the LAs for additional needs. This portion of money needs to be prioritised as such.

Your LA may not even deem EAL as an additional need, they may already award their schools a portion of money for these students.

brambleandapple Fri 11-Oct-13 21:30:48

Fairenuff What have your school / LA advised with regards to funding additional needs?

NotYoMomma Fri 11-Oct-13 21:31:01

ahhhhhh stop talking about money in fine detail. is it even appropriate to throw money at this yet at this stage? my head hurts.

Fairenuff Fri 11-Oct-13 21:33:50

Haha grin

I think it's clear bramble that the £6,000 is for the whole school and clearly not for one child or even just a few children.

And I agree that it's not appropriate yet.

brambleandapple Fri 11-Oct-13 21:36:14

Soz NotYo it is important though. This is the resource that can define the power to act, the schools have, at their disposal.

Why don't you like talking about it?

lougle Fri 11-Oct-13 21:37:09

The £6000 is a ceiling figure before which a school must manage from within its own funding. That's all. It's nothing more.

This isn't helping the OP.

brambleandapple Fri 11-Oct-13 21:38:41

Fairenuff the funding reform state quite clearly a demonstration of 6k spent individually on additional needs on top of AWPU.

What advise have you had, officially?

brambleandapple Fri 11-Oct-13 21:41:09

It is relevant if schools do not prioritise appropriately.

Why don't people want to discuss funding details?

Fairenuff Fri 11-Oct-13 21:43:22

When you say individually on additional needs bramble do you mean per child?

Because I've already asked you this and you said no, per school.

brambleandapple Fri 11-Oct-13 21:46:32

If I said this, it was wrong. 6k, individually per child, on a as needed basis, for additional needs.

Have you read the link I posted up thread, which details the legislation Fairenuff?

Fairenuff Fri 11-Oct-13 21:48:19

So the Head Teacher already has £6,000 individually, per child, in their budget, ready to use?

lougle Fri 11-Oct-13 21:49:07

No. They. Do. Not.

morethanpotatoprints Fri 11-Oct-13 21:49:16

Not sure if this has been suggested but legally your ds doesn't need to be in school yet, you could always defer and try again later.
There is also the option of H.ed, schools aren't always the best source of education for a child.

brambleandapple Fri 11-Oct-13 21:49:38

That is schools have to demonstrate an additional spend of 6k, for additional needs, individually for a child, before High Needs funding is applied for.

This must be clear now...

The document I linked to is quite straightforward, it even has examples.

NotYoMomma Fri 11-Oct-13 21:50:34

because it has been only 6 weeks and there hasnt even been a meeting of minds with OP and school to discuss issues and perhaps change strategies and put a plan in place?

I don't not want to talk about it iyswim I am just querying if other avenues should be explored and ruled out first before chucking money at it.

we are all getting distracted by ceilings and fugures and allocation of funds by appropriate bodies and it is extremely distracting

6weeks!
reception!

Fairenuff Fri 11-Oct-13 21:53:10

Ah, ok, so the school has to spend £6,000 on one child in order to be able to apply for further funding.

So, the head teacher has to choose which one child to spend it on.

Not likely to be a four year old who has only been in school for four weeks then is it.

brambleandapple Fri 11-Oct-13 21:53:22

This is what the school have to spend from their budget.

There budget is determined by the LA. There is variance from LA to LA.

However money was delegated to schools specifically for additional needs and should be prioritised as such. The 6k gives an idea of what the government expects from schools and how their prioritisation should work.

lougle Fri 11-Oct-13 21:53:27

NotYoMomma you are entirely right. This is all irrelevant twaddle in this case. The reason the £6k is set as a ceiling is simply to regularise Nationally what has been in place in many LAs for a long time. It should be irrelevant to parents of children with SEN, because regardless of how funding is arranged the child has a right to the provision that meets their needs.

This child is not established as having SEN. He is a 4 year old boy who has not yet complied with the school routine, 4 weeks into his first term there.

lougle Fri 11-Oct-13 21:58:02

"However money was delegated to schools specifically for additional needs and should be prioritised as such. The 6k gives an idea of what the government expects from schools and how their prioritisation should work."

That is simply not true. Every school receives a notional SEN budget. That budget is not ring-fenced. It is simply an indication of an amount from within the school's overall budget which is targeted towards SEN.

brambleandapple Fri 11-Oct-13 22:01:47

NotYo the mother feels her child needs additional support from the school. The schools predicament lies beyond her experience.

Children rarely have to line up at home and change in altogether a different environment. Should parents have to use strategies designed for use in school, at home, under different circumstances? They may not even have the same opportunity to use them since the same circumstances cannot be replicated. Also who says the school's strategies are correct or appropriate for the home environment?

brambleandapple Fri 11-Oct-13 22:02:53

But schools do receive a SEN budget. Shame it is not ring fenced.

Fairenuff Fri 11-Oct-13 22:07:57

Should parents have to use strategies designed for use in school, at home, under different circumstances?

In a nutshell, yes.

Children are often with others and have to queue to use the loo, or wash their hands or wait their turn for something. We have to queue in shops, for instance. Pre-schoolers can learn this.

I used to play a 'stop and go' game with my toddlers so that they learned to stop when instructed. We all have to change our clothes at times so OP could reinforce with her ds that when he asked to change at school, he should do so without a fuss.

Parents can practise giving instructions to their child at home, such as 'tidy up time' so that the child gets used to follow instructions. If the parent gives lots of praise, the child will feel good about 'conforming'.

brambleandapple Fri 11-Oct-13 22:12:15

Well parents do deal with these circumstances. I would have thought if the OP was not coping in these situations she would have either asked for help sooner, or said in her posts.

There does seem to something peculiar about a school situation that makes these situations more stressful for a portion of children.

FrightRider Fri 11-Oct-13 22:25:46

"Punishing twice" is the wrong way to put it.... following through on a school punishment has its merits. Its called supporting and working with the school.

My DS is HFA, he is obsessed with computers and gaming. His 'Golden time' reward at school for good behaviour is getting 10 minutes at the end of the day to play on the class computer. which he gets by achieving a certain number of 'smiley faces' on his chart over the school day.. the faces are given each time he completes a task without misbehaving or throwing a tantrum of any kind.

If he gets his Golden time reward at school he is rewarded at home with 1hr on the playstation.

If he fails to get his GT at school then i support that by removing his PS3 time at home.... It means to get the PS3 time at home, he has to have behaved and earned his GT at school.

His teacher also supports me by carrying through the same discipline method that we use at home from 1,2,3 magic so the control on him is consistant.

It does work if its arranged between teacher and parent and everyone is working from the same place and the child understands the 'trade' as well.

FrightRider Fri 11-Oct-13 22:26:40

and as a suggestion to the OP.

Have you considered asking if its possible to spend a couple of days in the class with your DS to help him settle and help the staff learn how to deal with these obstacles as they crop up?

blueberryupsidedown Fri 11-Oct-13 22:33:44

What I find strange about your post OP is that you say: BU to think they need to do more to help than ring me, as he behaves fine at home so I can't do anything.

There is a lot you can do, at home, to support your DS in adapting to school better. Do school role play, get him to practice taking his PE kit off and putting uniform on his own, play games such as 'Simon Says' to get him to follow instructions (you can adapt that game so that he has to follow two or three 'instructions' in a row); you can encourage more independence, practice turn taking, practice waiting for his turn.

Ask the school for a schedule of what he does at school and talk to him about it at home.

It's not a question of punishing your DS at home because of his behaviour at school, but of helping him understanding how school works and what is expected of him. You can work together with the school, but I think you are starting on the wrong foot by putting all the responsibility on the school.

lougle Fri 11-Oct-13 22:50:54

"But schools do receive a SEN budget. Shame it is not ring fenced."

Schools do not receive an SEN budget. They receive a budget and from that budget a notional SEN budget is derived. That means that the LA highlights which elements of the school budget are intended to support children with SEN within the school. There is no separate pot of money.

In practice the notional SEN budget comes into play when the school goes to the LA and says 'we haven't spent £6k on child x, but we have so many children with SEN that we've run out of money.' At that point the question may be asked: 'What did you do with the £47k that we identified as your notional SEN budget?' If the answer was 'well we have 10 children who all require 10 hours per week support, so we've used it all on those 10 children (£12.63 x 10 x 10 x38)' then the answer may well be 'show us the paperwork and we'll contribute some extra funds.' If the answer was 'oh well we thought a beautiful flower bed would help all the children feel proud of the school' then they may be less forthcoming with the funds.

brambleandapple Fri 11-Oct-13 23:00:40

Ah the flower bed....it explains a lot.

I'd quite happily put up with plain Tarmac playgrounds, if it meant a more inclusive school.

To be honest, on the surface of it, it doesn't sound like he has been best prepared for school. You say on one hand that his behaviour is fine at home but on the other hand you say you manage bad behaviour by ignoring. Well that might work fine with a 2 year old going through the temper tantrums stage but by 4 year olds they need to have learned that they simply HAVE to do some things and that they are non-negotiable. This should have happened at nursery. A good nursery will not have kids wandering off at tidy up time refusing to do it, or refusing to sit quietly on the mat. OP, was your son managing to do this sort of thing at nursery? Or if it were a very laid-back playschool kind of environment, were they just letting him wander round as he chose? If he is not used to boundaries or expectations from either you or his nursery setting then he will really struggle with the expectations of Reception.

I wish people hadnt brought up the subject of SEN. Fro
What the OP is saying, the school is behaving exactly as it should and in the first instance trying to work WITH the parent to try and discover any possible reasons for such severe behavioural difficulties before they even start thinking about referring for SEN issues. I have no doubt that the teachers are now thinking "well, maybe that is an explanation - the parent is ignoring bad behaviour at home and this is simply an inappropriate strategy for a 4 year old and will result in the child assuming he can do as he pleases."

OP, I don't know where you have gone, but you will know whether your child is able to follow clear and firm instructions to do this or that at home when he is told to by the adult in charge, or NOT to something when you tell him not to. All you have told us is that YOU think his behaviour is fine and that when he displays bad behaviour you ignore it. What you think is acceptable and fine in your house may be very different from what the school, and indeed wider society, think is acceptable. You need to give us more info about his behaviour at home before people start on about SEN issues.

lougle Fri 11-Oct-13 23:08:10

The flower beds are why it is in a school's interest to deny a child has extra needs.

Think about it:

A child needs 5 hours TA support (1 hour per day). That uses £2399.70 of the school's budget. That £2399 could have been spent on a resource that would benefit all children in the school. Instead, it's been devoted to one child.

It would be tempting to downplay difficulties for the 'good of all the children'. No?

I don't think that's happening in this case, however.

merrymouse Sat 12-Oct-13 06:20:14

I don't think it's likely that 29 children are able to cope with PE and the 30th child finds PE so difficult that his mother has to be called in, purely because she hasn't done enough role play/set the right boundaries with him.

brambleandapple Sat 12-Oct-13 07:42:30

lougle

A child needs 5 hours TA support (1 hour per day). That uses £2399.70 of the school's budget. That £2399 could have been spent on a resource that would benefit all children in the school. Instead, it's been devoted to one child

That TA would be benefiting all the children through supporting just one child, if this prevented disruption to their lessons!

mrsmuffintop Sat 12-Oct-13 07:56:52

OP, 4 is pretty young. Is it possible that he is just not mature enough and not coping? Have you thought of pulling him out and starting again next year? I know that in the UK children to stat school at 4 quite often, but where I live (Australia) they usually start at closer to 6, this is thought to be particularly beneficial for boys. It might be something to consider.

Squeakygate Sat 12-Oct-13 10:09:17

I have an Autumn born boy - he struggled to settle in reception class, ime the school were not helpful. My own suggestions were rubbished and even actively discouraged. I felt a little bewildered - why on earth would a school not want children to settle asap?
He would cry every day and say that he was sad because the class has no x's. Ds has / had a strong attachment to a particular type of toy (due to where we live) and the reception class had none. The teacher was happy with my suggestion to buy some of these items, the headmaster overruled her and said no.
I bought some of the items and sent them into his class and the nursery class. It was like flicking a switch and he settled immediately knowing there was something in the classroom he particularly enjoyed when it was time to play.
Could it be something as simple as he misses a person from nursery / (& probably you) or a toy?
I know that might seem silly but it was something that made such a difference to my ds.
Hope you come back to the thread op.

Fairenuff Sat 12-Oct-13 10:29:20

merrymouse no-one has said that the other 29 children are able to cope and, to be fair, that's irrelevant to the OP. She only needs to know about her child, no school would discuss another child with her.

brambleandapple Sat 12-Oct-13 10:50:21

no-one has said that the other 29 children are able to cope and, to be fair, that's irrelevant to the OP. She only needs to know about her child, no school would discuss another child with her.

Although not quite irrelevant. Having this type of information allows a person to assess whether additional needs or SEN or SN are likely.

brambleandapple Sat 12-Oct-13 10:52:54

What child development research shows a 4 year old should be able to do this?

Fairenuff Sat 12-Oct-13 11:02:12

Do what bramble, stand in a line?

brambleandapple Sat 12-Oct-13 11:12:35

Any of the standard classroom routines for reception.

NewNameforNewTerm Sat 12-Oct-13 11:14:32

I would question the mum's advice on ignoring the child's behaviours as a school's duty of care is to keep the child safe; running from a room may put a child's safety at risk and school do need to address this.

Why has this automatically turned into a special needs debate? There is no automatic assumption that a child must have SN if they cannot conform to school expected behaviours. It is detracting from really important issues about SN support and funding by assuming school are not offering staged support for a very young child having tantrums; the child has only been in school a few weeks and the reaction of talking about school spending SN budgets and Higher Level funding is extremely inappropriate and unhelpful to the OP.

A stepped response of working with parents and the TA supporting is happening. If this doesn't show improvements then the support can be stepped up. It must be frustrating for the OP, but I believe from the information given the school is supporting her child. What does she actually want? School to follow her instructions on ignoring tantrums which could put her child at risk, other children at risk when they see the behaviours are not challenged and could lead to an undisciplined classroom, or an instant label of high level SN that needs fulltime one-to-one support?

Fairenuff Sat 12-Oct-13 11:18:54

I agree wholeheartedly NewName and this is how most posters responded to the OP at the beginning of her thread.

Unfortunately, she hasn't been back but hopefully she will have read the suggestions and will find some of them helpful.

brambleandapple Sat 12-Oct-13 11:24:00

The OP said she wanted more support for her child NewName. Earlier on in the thread there were quite a few posters that argued this type of behaviour is not the norm, which naturally leads on to a discussion of additional needs, SEN and SN. Many also asserted that the schools were powerless to act, which naturally leads on to a discussion concerning funding.

If you read between the lines, 'ignoring' tantrums could in practice mean not escalating the situation through confrontational behaviour, which can be relevant in any school management, or any conflict management for that matter.

shewhowines Sat 12-Oct-13 11:26:42

There are lot of reasons for the behaviour and lots of strategies to use available, and the school is not being unreasonable to inform the op and ask for them to work together to solve the problems.

That's it basically. The rest is irrelevant.

brambleandapple Sat 12-Oct-13 11:29:22

I agree with a 'stepped' response also. However this involves positive action from the school and a willingness to change tactics if the strategies are not working. Or possibly more perseverance, if they think the strategies will actually work over time. This does NOT mean complaining to the mother every time a strategy does not work, with the expectation that she will solve the problem, without the school having to do anything. I only hope this is not the case for the OP.

NewNameforNewTerm Sat 12-Oct-13 11:31:58

Lots of parents want more support for their children, doesn't mean the school are not supporting in the way they see fit at that moment looking at the big picture of everyone's needs and the constraints of finances.

Yes I agree that early posts argued about SN / "non norm" behaviours, but I find it so frustrating that it has become (almost) a school is failing to meet his SN debate, rather than a support the OP in understanding school and how to work with them to help her child adjust his behaviours.

brambleandapple Sat 12-Oct-13 11:34:25
NewNameforNewTerm Sat 12-Oct-13 11:39:24

But working with parents isn't blindly following the advice parents give if it isn't appropriate in a school setting.

I am not denying there are shortcomings in support provided for some pupils with SN/AN, what I am frustrated (and offended) at is the assumption by some posters that it is all schools failing all children with these needs and jumping to conclusions that this is the case as soon as a post is made that may support their arguments that this is universally true.

brambleandapple Sat 12-Oct-13 11:41:38

Ditto parents blindly following the advice of teachers.

Btw I don't think all teachers are consistently bad, just that there is some awful practice going on.

NewNameforNewTerm Sat 12-Oct-13 11:48:06

"Ditto parents blindly following the advice of teachers" - exactly.
The number of parents evenings I have sat in with parents debating why children are well behaved in school but little monsters at home. What can they do to change home behaviours. I can offer suggestions linked to what we do in school, but I can't guarantee it will work... my own kids are proof of that! I often feel totally inadequate as a parent compared to as a teacher! confused Thank goodness OFSTED don't inspect teachers in their own homes!

brambleandapple Sat 12-Oct-13 11:49:38

grin

FrightRider Sat 12-Oct-13 12:33:10

maybe its just me, but i think parents who say their kids are perfectly behaved at home are telling fibs.

I know my DS isnt perfectly behaved at home or at school, its why his class teacher, her TAs and I work very closely together to keep him on track in both places!

sturdyoak Sat 12-Oct-13 12:34:22

What child is perfect?

Viviennemary Sat 12-Oct-13 12:39:42

It just sounds as if he is a bit too young to have started school with all the lining up regimentation and so on. I think mornings only would be a good idea. I don't think the answer is ignoring him. As the other chidren will think it's fine to run off.

Retroformica Sat 12-Oct-13 12:54:46

It sounds to be like he is exhausted and would be better off with a part time time table. Can he do mornings only or three days a week if he is so exhausted?

Yes I do think the school should be ringing you. You need to work together.

Retroformica Sat 12-Oct-13 12:56:59

At the end of the day your boy will just have to conform. I can understand why ignoring him is not a practical option for the teachers

YouTheCat Sat 12-Oct-13 13:30:23

You can't ignore a child who is running out of the class, running around the school and generally causing havoc. It is not practical or sensible.

You can bet your bottom dollar the parent would have something to say about it if her child came to some harm whilst being ignored.

merrymouse Sat 12-Oct-13 14:25:23

merrymouse no-one has said that the other 29 children are able to cope and, to be fair, that's irrelevant to the OP. She only needs to know about her child, no school would discuss another child with her.

Well if more than 1 child is doing a runner, they really have problems!

My point is that running out of class is an extreme reaction, not something caused by using the 'wrong' parenting technique. Children come from all sorts of backgrounds and manage to do P.E. without running away. Children with good communication skills, self control and no sensory difficulties do not have problems joining in with this kind of class.

My initial understanding of the OP was that they had been called in to take the child home early, (which I think is bad because it gives the impression to the child that the school can't cope and disruption = home time). On re-reading, it now seems to me that the the school just wanted to begin the process of discussing the problem. I sense that the OP either felt defensive, can't face the logistical difficulties of temporary part time school, or is going through the difficult process of realising that something is wrong, which often happens around reception/year 1.

I think that either this child is too young to be in school full-time, or this is part of a wider problem (and if the OP is honest with him/herself, this isn't the first time that additional difficulties have been apparent).

However, fundamentally schools have a responsibility to educate all children, not just the easy ones, and including those with 'bad' parents.

Fairenuff Sat 12-Oct-13 15:05:51

There are four children in my class who might 'do a runner' at any time during the day. Only one has a 1-1 worker. It's increasingly common in young children. More and more are starting school unwilling or unable to follow instructions.

Even if the child has SN, even if they have full funding, the parent still needs to work with the school to help implement an action plan.

It is possible to restrain children, if the staff have been specifically trained for this, but it would be a last resort. OP's son is only four but as the children grow bigger, the problems, if not addressed, become more and more difficult to manage.

This is why so many children go 'off the rails' during their teenage years. They are too old to be confined to time out. They have learned that, actually, there is nothing adults can do to stop them doing whatever the hell they like.

Once they become adults, they can of course be arrested and forced into 'time out' via prison, but no-one would want that for any child. It's so important to face up to the problem now, whilst he is young enough to learn and change.

Saying that school should ignore him, that works best, is not a strategy suitable for school or, indeed, for the parent, long term. He needs to be taught to comply and that means parental involvement, if it is to be successful.

Yes, the school have a duty to educate him and they will do that as best they can. But in seven short years he will be gone from that school. The parent is best placed to help him, support him, teach him and guide him through his young years so that he can grow to be a well balanced man who understands how he fits into the world and his responsibilities towards others.

sturdyoak Sat 12-Oct-13 16:07:57

However, fundamentally schools have a responsibility to educate all children, not just the easy ones, and including those with 'bad' parents.

I agree with this. If we are ever to deal with social inequalities this must happen.

wispawoman Sat 12-Oct-13 16:21:35

Genuine question - why are we seeing an increasing number of children unable to comply with what is being asked of them? Avoiding 'confrontational' situations - I suspect that this frequently means actually asking children to do things they don't feel inclined to do and have been used to getting away with refusing. I gave up a long career in teaching young children when I realised how much time I was spending coaxing children to do what I had asked, and how much teaching time was wasted, and how enthusiastic I was supposed to look when they actually deigned to comply.

sturdyoak Sat 12-Oct-13 16:25:55

wispa It happened in the old days, except we were smacked or humiliated sad and were genuinely petrified of the teachers. The ones that couldn't cope would leave the school.

nkf Sat 12-Oct-13 16:49:59

Sometimes children are well behaved at home because at home, they are never asked to do something they don't feel like doing. So, their wishes and the world around them are not in conflict. Anyway, children have to learn how to handle all sorts of situations.

The idea of regimentation and so on. Unless things have changed hugely in the last 10 years, reception is pretty much learning through play. Unless you've sent him to military academy or a prep school.

wispawoman Sat 12-Oct-13 16:51:26

I only left a couple of years ago and I'm not that old - the days of smacking and caning were long, long behind us, thank heavens. I saw the change over 20 years of teaching; it was once very rare to have a child refuse to do anything and it when it happened it was the top topic of the staffroom! It is now increasingly common and I can only assume it because children are now asked their opinions on everything and so find it very difficult when they are expected to do something just because they are asked to do so at school. Perhaps their parents spend their days negotiating with their children; there isn't time at school and certainly not with 30 children at a time!

sturdyoak Sat 12-Oct-13 16:52:40

I went to school in the 70s. Old? blush

sturdyoak Sat 12-Oct-13 16:55:38

I don't spend my day negotiating with my DC. Very valiant attempts are made but I'm the grown up version of them! Can't kid a kidder! grin

NewNameforNewTerm Sat 12-Oct-13 16:57:24

ODD
conduct disorder
PDA

None of this was talked about or even medically recognised when I was training.

NB Not suggesting this is OP's child!

sturdyoak Sat 12-Oct-13 17:03:32

I think in the 70s (and later) the teachers were less stressed. They could get away with a lot thinking back. We could spend whole lessons doing practically nothing in infants with no one batting an eyelid, unless you were really obvious about it. I had the same reading book for the whole of Reception, even though I could read.

I think some of the stress over 'standards' passes to the children and they are pushed a whole lot more.

sturdyoak Sat 12-Oct-13 17:04:37

We used to just get taught to text books or do very free play as well.

sturdyoak Sat 12-Oct-13 17:16:10

We were genuinely scared of most adults though. Most parents smacked their children. I don't think this was a good thing. I was very shy as a child and really worried if I thought I would get a strict teacher. One hit me because I got a sum wrong sad.

No I wouldn't go back to those days, even if it was a more pleasant job for the teachers.

lljkk Sat 12-Oct-13 17:18:21

DS2 is a PITA child but almost only in groups. Give him 1-to-1 attention & he is transformed into near angel. I've met a few like that.

He has several siblings at home so we see plenty of his worst behaviour, but if he were only one at home I might be baffled, too, by school difficulties. I wonder how many kids are like that.

Fairenuff Sat 12-Oct-13 19:23:40

I have definitely seen an increase in challenging behaviour over the last ten years. The biggest difference is those increasing number of parents who do not support the school rules.

Uniform, hairstyles, jewellery, lunchboxes - these are small daily breaches of the rules. We see threads time and again on mn about parents bemoaning the 'lunchbox police', etc.

Then there are those parents who don't want to hear that their child has been rude to staff, or unkind to other children and try to excuse it by saying - he's only 5, 6, 7 < insert age >

More serious are those children who cause consistent, low level disruption by being noisy and/or messing about in class. More and more teaching time is given over to behaviour management.

In the past, if the teacher had to speak with a parent, the child would be worried about what their mum would say. Now, so often, parents just say, well school have dealt with it, instead of reinforcing at home.

Parents are more than happy to praise and reward their children when they receive good news from school but when it's a complaint from the teacher, many parents turn their backs on the school and refuse to address or, sometimes, even acknowledge it. That's the biggest change I've seen in schools.

It's a shame because, ultimately, it's the children themselves that are held back. They become unhappy when things don't go their way, they fall out with their friends and are not very resilient to knock backs. They are not very well prepared for real life.

Like I said, the school only have them for a few years but they have to live with themselves their whole life.

lougle Sat 12-Oct-13 20:23:51

I agree, Fairenuff. DD2 was put on the 'pitstop' this week. Knowing DD2 as I do, I would say that she was a victim of her own quirky logic. I suspect she has SN, but so far she is 'under the radar' at school.

The situation is this:

DD2 is meant to be tidying up.
DD2 sees the fruit bowl. The fruit bowl holds fruit, and each child can take a piece of fruit for break time.
DD2 is hungry.
The fruit bowl has one apple left.
DD2 thinks 'If no-one else wants that apple, I could eat it.'
DD2 takes the apple.
DD2 starts to eat the apple.
Teacher sees DD2.
Teacher removes apple.
Teacher tells DD2 off.
Teacher tells DD2 to put herself on the pitstop.

My choices are:

Think 'Oh the poor darling, she has a quirky mind. How mean of the teacher.'

OR

Think 'Oh the poor darling, she has a quirky mind. I must make sure she understands why her teacher thought (rightly!) that she was stealing. I must make sure she doesn't do it again.'

I choose the second one. Because at that moment it doesn't matter why she thought she should take the apple. She shouldn't have done. She needs to understand why her teacher was cross, and why she should never do it again.

Later, I can deal with the fact that she may get herself into trouble with her logic in a different way. My hope is that the teacher will start to see a pattern. A child who isn't a trouble maker, but makes some very odd decisions (because her logic is very odd).

It doesn't do a child any good to be allowed to continue making the same mistake over and over again. Somehow, they need to be taught how to do something different.

sturdyoak Sat 12-Oct-13 20:34:30

My Granny never agreed with the teachers (nuns). Proper Bohemian. Let mum and all her sisters play cricket in their cellar. The whole school had to pray for my aunt. They all used to do each other's homework and run a book on the results.

Must have worked they were pretty highly educated, well after spending a period of sunbathing on office roofs instead of doing their work in the 60s...

sturdyoak Sat 12-Oct-13 20:40:36

I adored my Granny.

sturdyoak Sat 12-Oct-13 20:47:26

Fairenuff We had a teacher who all the children adored. Didn't report anyone to anyone, was just so interesting. He walked into the room and silence fell to see what he would say next.....we hung on his every word.
No sanctions were needed. Laugh a minute. I remember him stopping us one day and telling us to "MAN THE WINDOWS AND DOORS" because somebody.... "FARTED!!!" Chemistry was never so interesting.

Fairenuff Sat 12-Oct-13 20:51:24

Nice anecdotes sturdy but I'm not sure what your point is?

merrymouse Sat 12-Oct-13 20:58:03

I don't know about 10 years ago - I've only had children for 10 years, but in the 70's when I was in primary school:

- Never mind worrying about restraining children, any problem child was sent to the headmaster where they would get the slipper.
- Never mind children doing what they were told, women did what they were told too as equal opportunities legislation hadn't yet been passed and shows like 'Mind your language' and 'Black and White Minstrels' to say nothing of 'Jim'll Fix it' were on TV.

We have all changed since then, so it isn't surprising that children have changed.

However, there are still 30 children in a class, and demands on children and teachers have increased. When I was in reception we didn't attend whole school assembly, lunch was strictly monitored by dinner ladies (eat every last bit of gristle) and there were no school trips. The school day was predictable and calm. There was no computer flickering in the corner, no SATS, no world book day, no science week, no world week, no sports week and no sports day until further up the school.

On the other hand, although I definitely received a good education and had brilliant teachers, I am not sure that everybody in my class benefited in the same way as dyslexia and other difficulties weren't on anybody's radar (but never mind, send lazy children to the headmaster for the slipper, and if all else failed there were plenty of manual jobs).

Maybe I am lucky to have only had experience of schools where children who struggle do have SEN, and other children fit in and parents support the school. However, I think society has changed, but maybe schools haven't changed enough, which isn't surprising as that would take an awful lot of money.

merrymouse Sat 12-Oct-13 21:00:04

I think the point of sturdy's posts is that there was no golden age of compliant children.

sturdyoak Sat 12-Oct-13 21:04:27

Yep merry we come from a long line....grin

Well educated though, numerous 1st Class Degrees and post grad qualifications, prizes etc.

Fairenuff Sat 12-Oct-13 21:16:03

It's not the children that are the problem necessarily, merry, it's the parents. So quick to complain, so slow to support. So many parents think that turning a blind eye to certain behaviour is ok. It's not. It is failing the children.

And it's their own children that they are failing. I don't understand why they do it. Take a favourite toy off a child as a consequence of their behaviour? Oh no! Shock, horror. You can't do that...

There is a woman on another 'strike' thread at the moment saying 'My 5 year old won't be happy at having to go to school when his older brother is having the day off. How can I explain it to him, he won't understand. I am livid with the teachers'.

What? This is a five year old child!!

Tell him that he will do as he's told by his mother because she is the adult in charge, or blame the teachers for striking?

When children feel that the adults are not in control, they try to take control themselves. This is why they want to do things their way. Why they don't like to follow instructions. They have learned, very early, that they cannot rely on adults. That is the sad face of today's young children in school and it's too much for them. No wonder they break down sad

sturdyoak Sat 12-Oct-13 21:20:30

Each one of us from non-auspicious beginnings. My mother used to wee in the Wendy House wipe each day at school because the teacher told her they weren't allowed to go to the toilet in lesson time. My father was sent home regularly, in reception, by himself, for soiling his pants, my teacher told my mother I was 'dull'. My Dad became a successful engineer, my mother worked for one of the largest newspaper groups in the 80s. My cousin was put in remedial classes only to do all her qualifications after she left home and became Head of Youth Services for quite a significant area.

Teachers don't know everything...

sturdyoak Sat 12-Oct-13 21:25:41

Fairenuff I suggest you stop relying on the parents to make your life easier and take control yourself.

It's like telling tales, get a grip woman!

I don't go running to the teachers if my child is naughty at home! I deal with it.

Fairenuff Sat 12-Oct-13 21:30:03

Thanks sturdy, a classic example of head in the sand parenting.

NewNameforNewTerm Sat 12-Oct-13 21:33:32

"I don't go running to the teachers if my child is naughty at home! I deal with it."

Not all parents do, though. Lots ask me to sort out problems like refusing to go to bed, eat certain foods, hitting their baby sister or getting dressed in the morning. I do try to be supportive, but can't say I'm much help.

How I read Fairenuff's post is that it is a team effort; school and parents, if it is really going to work. What bugs me is a parent telling their child in front of me they wouldn't get a comic at Tescos tonight because they x, y & z-ed at school, then following morning find out from a TA who witnessed it the child had a tantrum in the shop so got one.

sturdyoak Sat 12-Oct-13 21:35:46

Fairenuff if a person doesn't want to be prepared to seriously consider a parent's advice, they shouldn't ask for it.

The OP's advice, whilst not entirely appropriate, did have some merit. Pushing a confrontation can escalate conflict and there may be fallout, the OP avoided that. Perhaps she was used to spotting triggers and played down mistakes in order to move on.

Complaining, without seriously considering advice or taking proactive steps to prevent negative occurrences yourself, is pointless. If this is all that happens, as a matter of course, it will become like white noise to parents.

sturdyoak Sat 12-Oct-13 21:39:23

My head is certainly not in the sand Fairenuff, I just have the ability to think and make decisions for myself, informed ones at that.

Fairenuff Sat 12-Oct-13 21:44:09

I very much doubt the school are complaining to the OP without 'taking proactive steps to prevent negative occurrences'. I expect they are informing the parent that there is an ongoing problem which she, as the parent, has a right to know.

What merit did the OP's advice have? Schools cannot ignore disruptive or dangerous behaviour.

Fairenuff Sat 12-Oct-13 21:45:14

Head in the sand parenting is when you don't want to hear anything negative.

You told me to stop telling tales. Same thing isn't it. You don't want to hear it.

sturdyoak Sat 12-Oct-13 21:54:02

I call it the courage of my convictions.

Fairenuff Sat 12-Oct-13 21:59:07

I don't understand your stance, sturdy. If your child was causing disruption in the classroom or putting themselves in a dangerous position, would you not want the school to tell you?

sturdyoak Sat 12-Oct-13 22:07:43

Informing is different from complaining. I would expect a " x has happened. We did x to deal with this. We will keep you informed of further incidences, but do not worry, we have x, x and x at our disposal. We are keeping our eye out for any problems. Please tell us if you deal with this is a particular way at home or have anything else to add."

I would expect this at the end of the day, or at a meeting if more serious, not a blow by blow account over the phone over every small misdemeanour. I would only expect a call if my child was very distressed, or if something very serious had happened.

NewNameforNewTerm Sat 12-Oct-13 22:14:30

Some parents feel like you sturdyoak, others demand a blow by blow and are most upset and complain we are not involving them in their child's education if we don't. That is where school's struggle; respond in the wrong way to the wrong parent and get it in the neck!

Fairenuff Sat 12-Oct-13 22:17:28

Then it looks as though you would be happy with the OPs school, sturdy because that is what they have done. Schools will inform parents and ask for their support but, of course, it is not always forthcoming.

It is sad, though because, with the best will in the world, schools cannot fill that parenting role which all children so desperately need, and deserve.

sturdyoak Sat 12-Oct-13 22:19:52

I would certainly not want school to attempt to parent.

sturdyoak Sat 12-Oct-13 22:21:06

My child deserves much better.^

NewNameforNewTerm Sat 12-Oct-13 22:22:17

Unfortunately, with some children if school doesn't do some parenting they don't get any. Sad world we live in.

sturdyoak Sat 12-Oct-13 22:33:30

Part of the role of being a teacher NewName. They don't call it a 'vocation' for nothing. You need the Divine to be moving through you, in order to make a half decent job at it. Par for the course...

sturdyoak Sat 12-Oct-13 22:36:18

So any assertions as to expertise is hokum...floundering in the dark, a lot of them.

merrymouse Sun 13-Oct-13 04:33:17

Once you exclude children who have behavioural problems because of special needs (or perhaps too young to cope with full time school) and children who have difficult backgrounds that you can't change (illness/poverty/previous trauma/at risk) are you honestly saying that there are a significant number of children in your class who disrupt classes because of well intentioned but lax parenting?

Of course some parents are daft - being daft is no bar to having children and if takes all sorts to make a world, but in significant numbers, really?

It seems particularly strange to me that problems with standing in a line would be due to lack of pre school training rather than lack of maturity/sensory difficulties as so many children start school having attended a nursery.

sturdyoak Sun 13-Oct-13 07:35:43

This thread has been interesting.

Many said the OP's child's behaviour was not the norm so then the possibility of a SN was mentioned. Schools said, they had no funds, their hands were 'tied'...

Until it was pointed out there were funds at their disposal for additional needs. Then they all pointed out that this type of behaviour did not necessarily suggest SN or additional need and those funds should be spent on a flower bed for all the children....

Then it was asserted this child was simply not ready for school. However the parent can insist on full time education, if they wish to. Oh dear, well of course the child should come first, the OP's child must stay at home...

The parent might not want this, bad selfish parent. 'Bad parenting' was claimed to be the cause of this predicament. Except children with 'bad parents' deserve an education too...

All the while, those who insisted on their expertise, claimed it was not within their capabilities do anything much about this sort of thing...

And round we go again...

SoupDragon Sun 13-Oct-13 08:12:04

It may all have been talked round and round and come back to the beginning after contradicting everything that was said but the fact remains that you can't ignore a child who has run out of class as the OP suggested. That is bloody stupid.

lougle Sun 13-Oct-13 08:34:00

"Until it was pointed out there were funds at their disposal for additional needs. Then they all pointed out that this type of behaviour did not necessarily suggest SN or additional need and those funds should be spent on a flower bed for all the children...."

sturdyoak, apologies if you have got that impression. My DD1 had special needs, she goes to special school, I am a convenor at two schools (both special) and I know the SEN Code of Practice like the back of my hand. I was giving a hyperbolic explanation of why some schools may be reluctant to identify SN in children.

lougle Sun 13-Oct-13 08:34:51

governor, not covenor

sturdyoak Sun 13-Oct-13 08:49:04

SoupDragon He is being ignored, in terms of not much being done.

Been spoke about and one strategy trialled, 'time out', unsuccessfully.

The parent, who is not a professional, will not necessarily know what works in school, all she knows is what works at home. Her experience suggests some form of avoiding confrontation prevents an escalation in behaviour. This is useful information, its suggests prevention (in terms of triggers) is needed, at least for the time being.

merrymouse's comment was interesting about most children attend nurseries before school. Maybe the nursery experience has not prepared the child adequately for school. Maybe it doesn't generally, as a few have pointed out, behaviour has (apparently) got worse in the past 10 years. So maybe it is the professionals who should perhaps be altering their approach... for making a more streamlined transition into reception.

SoupDragon Sun 13-Oct-13 08:51:43

That's clearly not what the OP meant though, is it?

sturdyoak Sun 13-Oct-13 08:53:40

What bit Soup? Sometimes you do have to read between the lines. The scenario I have suggested seems believable to me.

SoupDragon Sun 13-Oct-13 08:56:27

The OP said "he needs ignoring".

sturdyoak Sun 13-Oct-13 09:23:06

I am reminded of this post I read a while ago

*swallowedAfly Mon 07-Oct-13 17:34:20

....... gut feeling this is wrong but not having the buzzwords or the knowledge of pedagogy or agendas or inspection frameworks to articulate how those gut knowings interact with expert 'knowings'. .... a standard comment on how all professions/trades/institutions etc have their own terminology which silences people who aren't fluent in it. you could be a genius with a fantastically spot on assessement of what is wrong with your local school but still lack the language and awareness of policy, strategies etc to articulate that in a way that will be heard by educationalists.*

FrightRider Sun 13-Oct-13 09:27:07

Over the years when I've supported the teachers will labeling the kids clothes, taking them home when they have headlice to treat them and not returning them until they were clear, obeying the quarantine rules around chickenpox and getting them to hand me my non sick child at the gates while the poorly one stayed in the car, abiding by the 48hr sickness rule and supporting them when Ds has shouted or got physical, all i hear is "I wish more parents were like you"

The issue isn't the kids, its the parents apathy. If the parents don't give a shit, the kids wont either.

sturdyoak Sun 13-Oct-13 09:30:07

Frightrider

The issue isn't the kids, its the parents apathy. If the parents don't give a shit, the kids wont either.

Now how is this helpful, ever? Might as well write them all off now eh? This statement is apathetic, if you don't intend to help, in any form whatsoever.

sturdyoak Sun 13-Oct-13 09:33:48

^help in a situation such as this, that is. It does no good just writing off whole sectors of the population like this, what do you want? Eugenics?

sturdyoak Sun 13-Oct-13 09:34:58

I think the post I quoted earlier is more telling, here it is again,

*swallowedAfly Mon 07-Oct-13 17:34:20

....... gut feeling this is wrong but not having the buzzwords or the knowledge of pedagogy or agendas or inspection frameworks to articulate how those gut knowings interact with expert 'knowings'. .... a standard comment on how all professions/trades/institutions etc have their own terminology which silences people who aren't fluent in it. you could be a genius with a fantastically spot on assessement of what is wrong with your local school but still lack the language and awareness of policy, strategies etc to articulate that in a way that will be heard by educationalists.*

bunchoffives Sun 13-Oct-13 09:44:25

I think you are absolutely spot on Fright. Actions speak louder than words and if you are backing up at home the authority and validity of teachers and school then that communicates itself to children as respect for their teachers and school when they are there.

Sturdy you seem to have some romantic notion of non-conformity - which is fine in a high-achieving, educated family like yours. But when you are talking about a kid dragged up with no positive family culture to speak of, school norms might be the closest that kid gets to anything decent or sane in their young lives.

And fairenuff you sound so sensible and kind - I'd have loved to have my kids taught by a teacher like you - and in fact was lucky enough for that to have been the case in the main.

pixiepotter Sun 13-Oct-13 09:51:54

The running off might be described as a stress response, but the refusal to get changed and put on his T shirt and teasing the rabbit sound like plain naughtiness to me.
What do they mean when they say 'time out is not working'. They have to sticK with it until it DOES work.For example kid sits in time out until he will put on his shirt.

sturdyoak Sun 13-Oct-13 09:53:20

bunchoffives The OP is studying, how is she supposed to increase her own and her child's chances for a better future? She'd get just as much stick if she stayed at home.

Dragged up indeed, perhaps that is because people, like some of the posters on here, prefer to keep people in their place and write them and their children off as feckless.

YouTheCat Sun 13-Oct-13 10:17:14

No one said anything about keeping her place.

But if her ds's behaviour is that bad (and she did give quite a few incidents as examples) then she needs to work with the school and be proactive in helping them find out if there are any SN, as many strategies used with NT children just will not work if a child has SN.

Just telling them to 'ignore' him not helpful at all.

sturdyoak Sun 13-Oct-13 10:28:29

YouTheCat She is not a professional. She will not necessarily know what will work in school. The teachers have not got this cracked either. They cannot blame her for trying. Again I am reminded of this post,

*swallowedAfly Mon 07-Oct-13 17:34:20

....... gut feeling this is wrong but not having the buzzwords or the knowledge of pedagogy or agendas or inspection frameworks to articulate how those gut knowings interact with expert 'knowings'. .... a standard comment on how all professions/trades/institutions etc have their own terminology which silences people who aren't fluent in it. you could be a genius with a fantastically spot on assessement of what is wrong with your local school but still lack the language and awareness of policy, strategies etc to articulate that in a way that will be heard by educationalists.*

Professionals are reminded in the SEN CoP of how difficult it can be for parents to discuss things with teachers, SN or the possibility is, a very difficult emotive issue. Cut the OP some slack!

merrymouse Sun 13-Oct-13 10:36:12

I don't think the OP gave enough information to find out what is going on here. I agree that you can't ignore a child running away and the school may just have been trying to open a dialogue.

However I don't think it's helpful to assign the cause of problem behaviour to bad parenting because even if it is caused by bad parenting, the school's responsibility is to the child; children from 'problem' backgrounds also have sn; and many dedicated, responsible, boundary setting parents have children who find it difficult to function in school.

I think there is some oversimplifying of the problems that some children have on this thread. Perhaps people would have responded differently to a less defensive OP.

YouTheCat Sun 13-Oct-13 10:39:02

The point is they need to be working together.

If all the parent will offer by way of solution is 'ignore him, it works at home' then that is not helpful.

merrymouse Sun 13-Oct-13 10:40:58

And I also agree, about cutting the OP some slack. The defensiveness is a natural reaction to being told that things are going significantly wrong at school.

YouTheCat Sun 13-Oct-13 10:45:44

My own child's behaviour was so extreme that he was excluded numerous times in year 5, and this was at a special school. School were struggling. We were struggling. But we worked together to find a solution that worked. It was the only way.

There would have been no point in me getting defensive. That wouldn't have helped my ds to attend school and get much from the experience.

sturdyoak Sun 13-Oct-13 11:33:34

Schools can be defensive too....it's their professional reputations at stake.

Fairenuff Sun 13-Oct-13 11:46:19

Thank you bunch smile

nkf Sun 13-Oct-13 12:41:39

Based on the evidence in the OP, the school has done nothing wrong. They are faced with worrying and unacceptable behaviour and they have tried a strategy which has failed. They have, quite rightly, contacted the child's parent. The parent has, so far, contributed nothing useful.

The school will probably other approaches. Not sure what the OP intends to do.

nkf Sun 13-Oct-13 12:41:57

try other approaches.

sturdyoak Sun 13-Oct-13 12:58:14

The OP has done nothing wrong either except trying to suggest what might help. OK she failed, but is not a professional, what can work at home does not necessarily work in the classroom. The school failed to in their approach.

Meanwhile all this will be very worrying and frustrating for her, she can see her child is not happy.

sturdyoak Sun 13-Oct-13 12:58:39

^too (typo)

theothermrssoos Sun 13-Oct-13 14:58:04

They have to legally be at school once they hit 4 - whether parents like it or not.

My DD1 is summer born and we've not had any problems (other than when me and her Dad split up and she refused to leave my side, but that was a home issue and not a school one.)

Maybe go in and watch what hes like in the classroom?

pixiepotter Sun 13-Oct-13 15:05:17

They have to legally be at school once they hit 4 - whether parents like it or not

honestly! why do people assert such rubbish when they haven't a clue.

theothermrssoos Sun 13-Oct-13 15:08:35

That was in response to YoureBeingADick

And that is exactly what my DD1s school told me last year when I threatened to pull her out. Had letters from the LEA and the headmaster.

"asserting such rubbish when they havent got a clue."

RUDE.

pixiepotter Sun 13-Oct-13 15:24:41

'that is exactly what my DD1s school told me last year when I threatened to pull her out. Had letters from the LEA and the headmaster.'

were they delivered by flying pig?

Fairenuff Sun 13-Oct-13 15:26:58

Do you mean that, if she missed reception, she would go straight into Year 1 when she started back to school after turning 5?

lougle Sun 13-Oct-13 17:19:06

The legal obligations for the school and the parent are different.

Parents:

Legally have to arrange education in the term of the 5th birthday. That may be by sending the child to school or home educating.

School:

Has to accept children from the September of the Academic year in which they will turn 5.

There is no obligation for a 4 year old to be at school. However, once registered at school, the parent is expected to comply with the attendance rules of the school.

Willshome Sun 13-Oct-13 17:32:40

Agree with those who suggest taking him out of school if he's not ready for the discipline for another year. Better than setting him up with a sense of himself as a "naughty" child.

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