to ask how people who are anti-immigration feel when they hear about migrant boating disasters?(102 Posts)
I suppose it depends on how vehement they are. If they are very anti immigration then it probably won't bother them. They will probably blame the immigrants for putting themselves in that much danger
I suppose it's easy to judge others when you're coming from a position of comfort and safety. One half of the world doesn't know how the other half lives.
It was so sad on the news when they reported that some of the children had new shoes - signs of promise of a new life as they reported it.
I'd think they feel sad about the loss of human life.
Surely you can be anti immigration but still feel sad that people died?
Maybe I'm not understanding the question?
feel sad that these people are so desperate to get away from thier lives in africa that they will pay the earth to go on an unseaworthy boat and risk their lies for the hope of a new life by the way am not anti or for immigration have no real views either way, and very sad that so many people lost thier lives in a not very nice way
i do not think anti immigration means that you dislike or care for people from other countries though obviously some do but they are vile people who will probably have a hatred for a number of different groups of people
immigration is a problem. some parts of the country are struggling with the influx of immigrants (due often to people paying low wages to immigrants) wanting tight control over immigration does not make you racist or full of hatred
It's not unusual. Most of them just don't get reported here, I think on Monday six men died too.
People on Lampedusa have had enough. When the Middle East crisis was very bad, there were thousands of people landing every week.
Or you can be neutral about immigration but not be upset by the boating disasters. I don't feel anything when I hear about this sort of thing, tbh. Whether that's because I have become desensitised to it, I don't know.
Well, I think you can be oppose immigration without being completely heartless or a racist. So I would guess most would feel sorry for those involved in the likes of this disaster.
I don't get the assumption that opposing mass immigration automatically means you hate all migrants and either don't care if something terrible happens or actively wish ill on them. Of course some of those with more extreme view points might be totally unmoved or seek to blame the victims, but I hardly think thats common.
Incidently, I don't have any particularly strong views on immigration. I do believe there have to be some controls in order for it to work for everybody, but I don't have a problem with migration per se.
I feel about as sad as I do on hearing of a comparable disaster like a plane or train crash. What is your point?
Unless you open the country to a potential one billion immigrants, then people will do things like this, because there are far more people that want to come here than we can accommodate, and desperate people will do desperate things
So 'anti-immigration' to some degree or other is essentially compulsory.
OP do you mean that people who are anti-immigration should feel in some way responsible for this awful tragedy because if borders were open it may not have happened?
I don't think people who are anti-immigration feel responsible and I don't think they should feel responsible. I expect that most people feel the same sense of horror and futility that life is so unbelievably shit for some people that being an illegal immigrant in a rickety boat seems like the best, most promising option.
So if you think that boat disasters like this are a bad thing, it follows that you must favour open border immigration throughout the world?
you could tell us what you think OP about this. i am imagining you think you have the moral highground . TBH i think it is a dispicable line of questioning and insinuation, nasty, cheap.
No. It follows that I favour trying bloody hard to improve countries so that it's not necessary and to stop the gangs that make a huge profit from other people's desperation.
I wonder if the OP can say what she thinks would be the result of allowing anyone from Africa to move to Europe if they wanted to? It would be absolute chaos IMO. It would probably lead to racial war.
How could you have any form of benefit system or NHS if you had entirely open borders unless you operated a two tier citizen-access only and how could that ever work for health?
But surely most people would react in the same way to this as they would any other disaster? Some people are upset when they hear about disasters happening, others aren't bothered. I wouldn't imagine that the actual circumstances would make them react any differently iyswim?
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
If OP has seen similar comments to the ones I have sadly read on FB then I understand why she has asked the question sadly.
I've seen some vile ones, thankfully not people on my friend list but they have appeared on my feed when friends have commented on them. One particularly disgusting fucker said "See! Even nature agrees they should stay where the fuck they come from!"
I don't think it's unreasonable to wonder whether there is a correlation between the reason they were on the boat and people's attitudes to that, and the empathy felt for them. Or lack thereof.
BLimey, that is vile
One would hope they feel saddened by the loss of life, who would feel happy?
I don't know that I understand what the OP wants here, but I think the thread will not end well
OP are you in favour of open immigration? Allow unlimite numbers of people to cross borders, no matter the effect on health services, education, housing, not just for the people who already live there but also for those who move to that country for a better life?
Or do you think more should be done to improve countries for people already living there so that immigration is not the only route to a better life?
YABU, nasty, ignorant about the impact of immigration. A lot of the time, people's worries are economic, not racist.
I am not anti immigration as such, but I do have the foresight to see that Britain cannot sustain unlimited growth. Does that make me racist?
I feel the same sadness over loss of life as most others, I expect.
I think the op wants to paint those opposed to unchecked or illegal immigration as some kind if heartless automatons.
Another naive post with no response from the op.
I am oppossed to illegal immigration.
I am sorry that people die in the attempt at illegal immigration.
That OK with you OP?
Although there is an obvious connection, feelings of genuine worry and concern that your country cannot cope with large numbers of immigrants and feelings about people dying in horrific circumstances are two separate things.
It is perfectly possible to disconnect your feelings on these two things from each other. Being anti immigration for valid reason is highly unlikely to make anyone pleased that migrants have died in boating disasters.
OP, are you Wick from The Young Ones?
Perhaps some Y10s will have time before registration to congratulate you on a logical, well-thought-out question that really stuck it to the adults and blimming well made them rethink their whole blimming attitude to immigration.
I agree with Celia Lytton. I'd only heard about the migrant boat on BBC radio news where they were referred to as migrants, not illegal immigrants, although maybe you can't be an illegal immigrant until you land somewhere. I hate the gangs who make money out of people's desperation and encourage this and are overoptimistic about life in Europe.
Yanbu to asked the question.
I've honestly heard enough nasty comments from those who are anti immigration to suggest an entire lack of empathy.
to ask how people who are anti-immigration feel when they hear about migrant boating disasters?
I feel sad that their own country and their own government is so bad/ corrupt/unstable that they will risk their lives to get to somewhere better. I feel utter contempt for the people who herd them like sardines into sea unworthy boats and charge them huge amounts of money for the passage. That's how I feel.
As for immigration, I am FOR controlled immigration to benefit our country e.g. in low paid employment that you cannot fill and in very skilled employment that we have shortages in. This is how most countries work. And I say that as an immigrant in a country which relies on immigrants to hold up it's economy and has very, very little abuse in it's system because it is very tightly controlled.
I'd like to see some kind of centralised refugee location that is well run and fair that can process refugees and then find them a place to live in a country that has a quota to take them. That sounds a bit idealistic!
Furious that "gang-masters" take their money on the promise of a better life. Furious that they're sold paradise. Furious that it's 90% men who are on these boats and unable to understand why if they're fleeing political/armed conflict they don't fight tooth and nail to bring their wives/sisters/daughters/mothers with them. If my husband did a runner and left me I'd swim over to catch the fucker.
Since when did having anti immigration views mean having zero empathy for the victims of this tragedy? Wanting a strong border force and a controlled, sustainable and transparent immigration policy does not equate to taking satisfaction at the plight of these people.
A moronic OP if every there was one.
Bit of a stupid question really, I`m in favour of imigration, however, I cant imagine those who are not feel any different to me when they hear about disasters such as this.
I dont think its pro - want them to live, anti - dont care if they die.
My children have a minutes silence at school today for the people that died . This is in Italy . I take it OP that your children are doing the same seeing as its a ' European problem. '
I am anti illegal immigration but I am human.
Those posts answer your lower year High School essay question OP?
what a horrid thread.
People die in this way pretty much every day its just not reported if there are only @ few immigrants on a boat.
Wonder why it takes this many to die in before some one starts a veiled thread.
I don't like illegal- immigration but even if those poor souls were illegal, people died in a horrific way and that makes me feel sad. People are still people no matter what color, creed, culture or religion.
The question should be when the hell are we in Europe going to do something about it. Am in Italy as well and sat last night watching an interview with an absolutely broken couple from the island of Lampedusa who in their small boat went to the rescue and amongst a sea of bodies rescued a number of people from the water. There were a large number of women and children on the boat by all accounts. This is an EU problem and needs a coordinated EU response, Italy cannot deal with it on its own, we are just a frontier from Africa to Europe and as long as people just break it down to whether they agree with illegal immigration or not nothing will change. This kind of tragedy happens all the time, the only reason it is headline news now is because of the numbers. And people are going to keep dying half a mile away from their promised land as these did until we take collective responsibility for it and make it about the human aspect not about whether we agree with illegal immigration or not.
Aussie DH fits this category so I will answer on his behalf.
While he feels sorry for any loss of human life, especially when there are children involved, he does also feel that if they hadn't been on the boat in the first place then they would have been ok so, while he's not saying that it "serves them right" (he wouldn't say that), it's kind of "they knew the risks".
I am just desperately sorry for them that they feel the need to take such a massive risk to get to a western country.
Boatloads of immigrants coming into Australia all the time makes it a big political handle - our latest PM used it as one of his biggest campaign tactics, that he would "stop the boats". Can't see it, myself.
4 babies drowned.
If you don't get upset by that because of your stance on immigration then you are truly heartless.
Also if you don't understand why people.might want to emigrate from some places.
well said bananagio .. I wonder if in the next European parliament summit / meeting this will be given top priority ?. I doubt it very much .
I would probably be described as 'anti-immigration' by the OP, as I do believe it is a spiralling problem, and that as a pretty small island in an economic downturn, we do not have enough homes, a good enough infrastructure of health and social services, enough jobs and so on to support the nationals of this country as it is. Whilst I do think we have a duty to try to help those suffering due to conflict and famine etc overseas, I do not think allowing thousands upon thousands of refugees to settle here is the best long term plan, we simply cannot sustain that kind of scheme.
Given my views, I still feel immense sadness at this tragedy, as I would any other tragedy resulting in such unneccessary loss of life. It still does not change my opinion on immigration. All it says to me is that there needs to be a tighter crack down on these predatory gangs charging the earth and then allowing people to overcrowd these vessels and endangering so many lives. Better communication passed on in countries the refugees are fleeing from, letting them know that they will likely be held in detention centres, denied many rights and deported back anyway, XX number of people died over the last year trying to cross in these circumstances and so on.
Are you in Lampedusa Goldenhandshake?
I'm not anti immigration as such but do feel that Britain/UK is a SMALL ISLAND and can't cope with more people... but that's another post. I also work in a solicitors where we deal with immigration and some of the sols here are quite vocal re certain sectors working, claiming benefits etc even when the sol in person is a migrant himself...
when people die re migrating in a boat? how sick would you be honestly not to feel sorry/sad for them and their families??
I can't believe you're asking this question and it sounds a bit troll like.
Also totally agree with BananaGio, it is a wider European problem, and should be addressed as such.
Just No, but I have family there and in Sicily. I have visited many times and am familiar with local feeling on this matter, it is a massive problem, and many locals (my family included) feel Europe have washed their hands of the issue.
Well this is a truly shitty thread isn't it.
I have just realised why my post may ahve been a bit confusing, I was expanding on my views on immigration first, relatign to the UK, to demonstrate how I most likely fit with the OP's 'anti immigration' description. I didn't mean to imply the first half of my post was about immigration and Lampedusa (seeing as most of the migrants who do reach there intend to use it as a portal for wider Europe)
I do not think I have ever heard anyone be totally anti immigration, certainly not in the UK where we have a diverse and welcoming society, more so indeed than lots of other EU countries.
I think the UK is obviously suffering problems from too much immigration, that doesn't make people anti immigration,
Indeed it worries me that because on the one hand, we have open borders with the EU, that when you get really sad tragic cases, like those escaping from political persecution eg Zimbabwe then we send then back and use them as an example of being tough on " immigration". I would rather be able to provide safe haven for refugess like that.
I think the way in which the ops question is posed shows an inate understanding of the whole issue.Maybe op is a teenager?
"mis" understanding of the issue
There's an idea. Just allow everyone who wants to come to walk in unchecked and then nobody else would die in trying to do so illegaly. Perhaps lay on free transport to ensure only safe means of travel are used.
Don't think anyone is suggesting anything like that NK and it is a pretty ignorant, simplistic and offensive remark to make when half the bodies haven't even been found yet. Italy is having a day of mourning today. Granted some of our lunatic MPs in the Lega Nord are already trying to make political capital out of it but that is only to be expected by them. Everyone else here on all sides of the political spectrum are just recognising it for the human tragedy it is and are pleading for EU help to stop this "massacre of the innocents" as the President of Italy has described it. It is really not often that I look at the governing powers that be in Italy and feel they are taking the high ground over the UK et al, indeed I have spent most of this week despairing of them, but as I continue to be deafened by the silence of the response of William Hague regarding this latest disaster that is certainly the case today!
Everyone knows why they try to get here, but it's difficult to see how we can stop this kind of thing happening. Aid is irrelevant to this. It's important, but no reasonable amount of aid is going to lift Somalia and Eritrea up to European living standards - so they will keep coming.
So how do we prevent these deaths? Italy already spends a lot of money trying to rescue people from sinking boats. So do we undercut the crooks by establishing a regular ferry service with good facilitities and no questions asked? Of course not.
Maybe the best thing is to make it as difficult as possible for people to get in once they have landed. Make sure everyone knows that if they come by boat they will be treated well but sent straight back. Perhaps that will reduce the numbers who try, and reduce the chances of something so awful happening again.
That's what they've been trying in Australia, CuChullain.
They are now putting out tv ads on Aussie tv to say "boat people WILL be sent back again, they will NOT be able to stay" so that anyone here who knows anyone thinking about illegal entry on a boat will try and put them off.
I doubt it will make any difference, tbh.
your question seems to assume that anyone who is anti-immigration is an inhumane heartless bastard.
i personally think immigration should be curbed but to hear of a boatload of people dying is just tragic.
Maybe I'm in the minority in that I know people who are vehemently anti-immigration and they are pretty heartless tbh. Guess that's an easy position for some people to take when they're living in comfortable circumstances.
Thankfully, yes, I believe you are in the minority.
I'm very open to immigration for skilled migrants and refuges. I love meeting people from cultures that are widely different to my own. I think it makes our lives in the UK are richer experience.
But I reported a potential student who had breached the conditions of her visa.
Is that why you started such a ridiculous thread then Alma?
You are entitled to your opinion SirChenjin but this is an open forum and it was a genuine question (and I'm not going to stop asking a genuine question because you think it is ridiculous!)
Alma, if you know people who think immigrants drowning is some kind of positive thing, I hope you can avoid them as much as possible.
I wouldn't go so far as to say they would openly say it is a positive thing but neither are they capable of empathising with the circumstances that drive people to take such risks.
You don't that people like that exist then do you?
If we want to have a welfare state then there must be controls on immigration.
This is a terrible tragedy and I feel gutted for these people and their families. I would have been on there if I were in their position.
this is an open forum and it was a genuine question (and I'm not going to stop asking a genuine question because you think it is ridiculous!)
Really? That constitutes a genuine question in your mind? Well, hopefully the posts above will explain in more detail why it was a ridiculous question.
Yes, really and I've read the other responses thank you SirChenjin. I was genuinely interested to canvas opinion rather than to stifle debate which seems to be your intention.
Excellent. So now you will realise that the general 'opinion' is that your question was ridiculous.
I have heard various people in real everyday life express strong views about immigration. I just wondered whether hearing of these disasters altered or had any bearing on people who have such views.
As I've said SirChenjin, I'm not going to allow you to bully or belittle me. Who do you think you are?
As has been explained to you, it's perfectly possible to be against uncontrolled immigration AND feel horror and revulsion at the news that so many have died.
I'm honestly surprised that anyone wouldn't understand that.
Alma, it was a brief and provocative OP, and then you didn't post again for some time.
alma123 - when I read this thread today I was shocked and appalled. in fact more than shocked and appalled. I was disgusted that someone could even think the way you do.
If you think England is some green and pleasant land full of all ENGLISH people you're wrong. Most of our ancestors are from abroad, Vikings, Romans etc... So where do you stop?? People don't tend to migrate generally because they want to it's because they have to - a need. They're (migrants) not all out to fleece society.
I read Mail online sometimes (for stories/celeb stuff etc) and I disagree/agree in some ways with their stances on immigration but they are extreme and right wing in their thinking on it.
Your question right from the start seems inflammatory and heartless and you may as well be a member of a far right group... To be honest I'm going to ask for this thread to be removed. Haven't feel quite so angry in a long time about someone like you.
and how are anti-immigration people meant to feel when they hear about migrant boating disasters? Are they supposed to be pleased, happy, dance in the streets or are they meant to be sad and have compassion like some normal person should feel.
what a horrid horrid question.
And yes, I perfectly understand that that is a possible response. However, can you honestly say that that is the only response. Are you now speaking on behalf of everyone on these forums?
You are a disgusting person OP.
You should change or educate the POV of these bigots you mix with, educate the mindless cretins.
have you never heard the saying about the company you keep? I can't think of it....
MissDD, I'm about as far away from right wing as you could possibly get but I have, as I have expressed above, heard very strong views expressed in real day to day life - as a few others have done so on this thread.
I just wondered whether such disasters had a bearing on people's views and perhaps made them reconsider their positions.
If you (or more importantly the Mumsnet team) believe that this question cannot be asked, then go ahead and ask for the thread to be deleted and I'd be interested to know on what grounds.
Alma- the decent and appropriate response at this juncture would be to acknowledge that your thread was inflammatory, inappropriate, inciteful and ill-judged, and apologise.
MissDD, how can you say I'm a disgusting person? Now that constitutes a personal attack - perhaps that will give you the grounds to have the thread deleted
Yes, sorry ModeratelyObvious, I had other business to attend to.
how ON EARTH can you think this post was correct and not inflammatory??!!
I've already reported this post and you to MN.
a lot of what you'd posted here would get you deleted at best on other forums.
wonder away but I think you are a troll. and I shan't be feeding you any longer.
Totally agree SirChenjin - OP only made it worse when she talked about her friends/acquaintances having similar bigoted views...
SirChenjin, you would be the last person I will apologise to.
For the other posters, if I have upset you, I am sorry. I didn't mean to cause offence - far from it. I was genuinely very upset by this disaster.
Ok. If you have to post and run on something provocative again, worth saying that's what you'll be doing in your OP, if possible.
I'm not a troll. When I mentioned other views, they were in fact views expressed by older family members not in relation to this disaster. I have nothing to do with any far right groups - as I've said, I was genuinely upset by this tragedy.
OK apology accepted. But seriously I would think carefully about the company you keep and try to educate them. but that's JMO.
"I have heard various people in real everyday life express strong views about immigration. I just wondered whether hearing of these disasters altered or had any bearing on people who have such views."
Well, let's imagine how the people of the island of Lampedusa might feel, as they're right at the chalk-face of this. They've possibly been feeling swamped by the sheer scale of the influx of desperate people landing on their shores. Yet they've now experienced first-hand this dreadful tragedy on their doorstep. I imagine they feel awful. Much more so than we do, watching the news footage from the comfort of our own homes.
Hard to do that when it's family members but yes, their views do make me angry.
Yes, I'm sure you're right clam.
I think what I will take from this though is that a question can be posted and then be interpreted in the complete opposite way from which it was intended. That makes my mind boggle a bit but I shall try to word my questions more carefully in future.
I wonder if the OP can say what she thinks would be the result of allowing anyone from Africa to move to Europe if they wanted to? It would be absolute chaos IMO. It would probably lead to racial war.
Hmm, yes, well.....
Racial war has been going on for centuries....
Apartheid anyone, to mention one...
People from Africa etc. would really prefer to stay at home you know....
Thing is, this is a much bigger problem of how one part of the world is fucked in war and poverty and are desperate to get out while another part is hung up on ridiculous sleb news and bullshit.
If we don't do the right thing it will get worse and worse. Wars, terrorism.
We are ALL part of the problem, and we can all be part of the solution too.
It's the politics that are crap - all over the world.
Alma, if you'd put in your OP "family members are really winding me up on things like this" or something, it would have been a different kind of thread.
I feel the same as when I hear any similar news in a country that's not this one - mild interest for a minute or 2 & then I tune back into the news that actually affects me....
Oh, yes, I forgot - WWII was a racial war too by the way. (apart from the gays and handicapped/political dissidents - hardly racial, but you get the drift).
I feel differently comingalongnicely - I do really think about these issues - some might say too much. But I sort of think that the attitude of 'it doesn't affect me' is why there isn't a focus on resolving these issues.
Pope Francis, visiting Assisi, described Friday as "a day of tears" for the victims and condemned a "savage world" that ignores the plight of "people who have to flee poverty and hunger".
That sums up my thoughts on this matter
The loss of life is very sad. I'm not necessarily anti-immigration but I am against any sort of immigration which would encourage the people-smuggling trade, especially if they are coming from a country which is not actively trying to exterminate or prevent those people from leaving in order to kill more of them. It's not illegal to seek asylum but I do see the need for greater scrutiny of those claims. It's not enough that they are poor in their own country, sorry.
Join the discussion
Registering is free, easy, and means you can join in the discussion, get discounts, win prizes and lots more.Register now
Already registered with Mumsnet? Log in to leave your comment or alternatively, sign in with Facebook or Google.
Please login first.