To think teachers are actually better off than those in the private sector

(489 Posts)
coco44 Mon 30-Sep-13 19:53:33

(Mumsnet Bosses
Please may I rephrase the debate in a more measured way)

Or you could just read the many intelligent threads on this

Instead of starting a shit one

coco44 Mon 30-Sep-13 19:55:07

I recognise my previous debate was inflammatory but would really like to discuss the issues

janey68 Mon 30-Sep-13 19:55:07

Oh dear you really are bored tonight aren't you? Why not fill in few job applications to while away your evening?

HTH

NotYoMomma Mon 30-Sep-13 19:55:24

Jesus fucking wept

ILetHimKeep20Quid Mon 30-Sep-13 19:56:04

Ishooos?

jacks365 Mon 30-Sep-13 19:56:33

Those I know with degrees working in the private sector all earn over 100k so would be much worse off as teachers.

Your thread title is inane, inflammatory and makes no rational sense.

Why would anyone want to debate such a mind numbingly stupid and judgemental premise?

Fairenuff Mon 30-Sep-13 19:57:17

Help, they're spawning!!!!

Yorkieaddict Mon 30-Sep-13 19:57:38

Is that all teachers, better off than everyone in the Private Sector? Er, no!

coco44 Mon 30-Sep-13 19:57:41

janey Please can you not make this sort of comment.My job is neither here nor there except to say that I have NC ed because I may have clients whose family are teachers

MrsLouisTheroux Mon 30-Sep-13 19:57:52

Teachers terms and conditions are swiftly falling in line with the crappiest, private sector jobs out there and teachers enjoy about the same level of job security.
So, YABU I'm afraid OP.

hettienne Mon 30-Sep-13 19:58:11

Yes, they're better off than (some) private sector workers because they are a strongly unionised profession!

HRHLadyG Mon 30-Sep-13 19:58:16

What is your criteria to measure 'better'? x

echt Mon 30-Sep-13 19:58:33

Is this your better re- phrasing of your point?

Better off in what way(s)?

Who are "those in the private sector", precisely?

Snargaluff Mon 30-Sep-13 19:59:54

Yes, teachers wages are not too bad. I earn about 22000 and have a degree and a masters. I love my job (mostly) and like the break of working home in the holidays and having time to catch up on marking.

Why don't you do it too :-)

coco44 Mon 30-Sep-13 20:00:20

Ok I think public sector employees have a very good pension (at our expense), better job security than most in the private sector, and I don't think it is in the interests of anyone (other than incompetent employees) to not tie pay to performance.
I don't think teaching is a particularly difficult or skilled job.

janey68 Mon 30-Sep-13 20:00:36

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

ravenAK Mon 30-Sep-13 20:01:27

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

Johnny5needsinput Mon 30-Sep-13 20:01:41

Oh. You again. What was your job again?

thebody Mon 30-Sep-13 20:01:48

yawn!!

HRHLadyG Mon 30-Sep-13 20:01:50

So.....what is your criteria for measuring 'better'? x

MadameLeBean Mon 30-Sep-13 20:01:52

Did the other thread get deleted? Why? It wasn't a personal attack, just a controversial (actually not really in many circles) opinion

echt Mon 30-Sep-13 20:01:55

I can see why you've name changed with that attitude.

Pay is tied to performance

Why do you not know that?

mirry2 Mon 30-Sep-13 20:02:34

coco44 put your hard hat on grin

StitchingMoss Mon 30-Sep-13 20:03:06

So how would you go about tying pay to performance in teaching?

Euphemia Mon 30-Sep-13 20:03:08

The average UK salary for a female is about £24k. I earn about £25k as a teacher. Meh.

I don't do it for the money. I do it because I bloody love it. smile

I probably couldn't work in the private sector as I couldn't give a monkey's about profit.

echt Mon 30-Sep-13 20:03:13

The teachers' pension is self-funding, OP.

Orangeanddemons Mon 30-Sep-13 20:03:16

Ha ha ha ha. Dh gets bonuses, a company car, private health and other stuff. We don't even get our fucking tea or coffee bought for us.

Johnny5needsinput Mon 30-Sep-13 20:03:17

There is a much wrong with the syntax and sentence construction in your posts I don't even know where to start with them.

Snargaluff Mon 30-Sep-13 20:03:52

'I don't think teaching is a particularly difficult or skilled job.'

Again. You do it then. Otherwise why are you so obsessed with teachers? Weirdy alert

balia Mon 30-Sep-13 20:04:02

Mr Gove, please stop lurking on Mumsnet, you're not fooling anybody.

Euphemia Mon 30-Sep-13 20:04:38

How many years have you tried teaching for, to conclude that it's not skilled or difficult?

StitchingMoss Mon 30-Sep-13 20:05:08

Orange, don't forget we often buy our own resources too!!

coco44 Mon 30-Sep-13 20:05:36

Well how about debating the issues instead Johnny?

I think you might have to explain 'pension is self funding' to the OP as she doesn't seem to be able to grasp concepts easily.

StitchingMoss Mon 30-Sep-13 20:06:02

Are you planning to answer any of these qus OP?

HavantGuard Mon 30-Sep-13 20:06:19

grin Balia

Johnny5needsinput Mon 30-Sep-13 20:06:31

Ok let's start with the issues.

What's your job? That is considered to be the hardest to get in to, according to your last thread.

echt Mon 30-Sep-13 20:06:44

While I don't routinely quiz my acquaintances about their income, I cannot think of one, either in public or private sector who didn't get paid more than me. I was well paid as a teacher in the UK.

Souredstones Mon 30-Sep-13 20:07:55

Public sector employees only have a good pension because they pay more into it. You want a better pension, pay a higher percentage of your salary into one.

Mine is 5.9% of my salary so not that great compared to other parts of the public sector

yegodsandlittlefishes Mon 30-Sep-13 20:08:13

You can think what you like OP, no problem.

To say it, and pretend there is anything there to debate? Yes, YABVU.

sonlypuppyfat Mon 30-Sep-13 20:08:26

YANBU

StitchingMoss Mon 30-Sep-13 20:08:40

No answers OP?

motherinferior Mon 30-Sep-13 20:08:49

Even if it were true, would this necessarily be a bad thing?

I rather want my children to be taught by people with skills and intelligence and drive. I think those people should be decently paid. They are, after all, doing an incredibly important job. And actually I rate that job more highly than quite a few private sector jobs where ultimately you're working to make your boss rich.

paperclipsarebetterthanstaples Mon 30-Sep-13 20:08:50

Haha - oh op, i wish i had time to start lots of threads on ridiculous topics just to wind people up instead of just grabbing a 5 minute break from marking...

ChampagneTastes Mon 30-Sep-13 20:09:20

Sigh.

Teacher's pensions are paid for by teachers.

Is that easier to understand?

Euphemia Mon 30-Sep-13 20:10:45

Why do people get so incensed about teachers' pay and conditions.

My DH gets paid more than three times what I do, also in Education. He's much cleverer than me, but he's not in loco parentis of 25 children, he doesn't teach anyone to read and write, he works from home most days, and has nothing of the responsibility of my HT, despite being paid twice what she is paid.

No-one bitches about his profession.

coco44 Mon 30-Sep-13 20:10:52

What do you mean by 'self funding' - are you trying to say that the sate (as a teacher' s employer) pays nothing in?
They pay in more than the employee!

coco44 Mon 30-Sep-13 20:11:30

and why do teachers think they shouldn't have to retire at the same age as everyone else.I gather that is one of their major beefs

Johnny5needsinput Mon 30-Sep-13 20:11:46

What is your job coco?

HRHLadyG Mon 30-Sep-13 20:11:49

Op....what is your criteria for 'better'? You can't expect an objective debate whilst presenting such a vague, and ultimately, subjective question. x

Teachers'

Autocorrect trying to make me look stupid.

SPBisResisting Mon 30-Sep-13 20:12:13

Be interesting to see if the OP gets the pension thing.

Souredstones Mon 30-Sep-13 20:12:17

Where has the op gone? It seems her issue is with the public sector not teaching

Euphemia Mon 30-Sep-13 20:12:50

coco No-one wants to retire at 68, or have you missed other workers' recent protests?

coco44 Mon 30-Sep-13 20:12:57

'Why do people get so incensed about teachers' pay and conditions'

because they never stop moaning about what hard-done-by martyrs they are!!

Lilithmoon Mon 30-Sep-13 20:13:24

I think pretty much everyone is in this country is better off than millions of people across the world. What is your point OP?
It's shit for some people in the private sector so it should be shit for everyone else?
If you don't like it bloody well do something about it instead of spouting crap on here!!

misskatamari Mon 30-Sep-13 20:13:42

Oh god - teaching isn't skilled? Coco - become a teacher if it's so bloody easy. Your comments are ridiculous and you obviously don't have the first clue about what it means to be in education today. Until you do you might want to fuck off and bitch about another profession!

Souredstones Mon 30-Sep-13 20:14:06

Many professions retire early due to stress on the body

Police can't work past 50 or 55 depending on their role
Firemen retire early

Stands to reason teachers might but then should social workers, nurses, doctors? What age do you begin to out others at risk?

(Sorry for the random musing there!)

Fairenuff Mon 30-Sep-13 20:14:25

What's your job coco?

Johnny5needsinput Mon 30-Sep-13 20:14:44

What is your job coco?

coco44 Mon 30-Sep-13 20:14:47

You don't hear say council clerks whining all the time.It really is the incessant whining about how hard they work, how badly they get paid, how no one respects them, that does my head in!
You get 13 weeks off!!!!

Your opinion is wrong.

extracrunchy Mon 30-Sep-13 20:15:32

"I don't think teaching is a particularly difficult or skilled job"
Just wow.

janey68 Mon 30-Sep-13 20:15:33

You're the one moaning and whining OP.
And don't forget to tell us what your incredibly difficult degree subject was, and also your job title

HRHLadyG Mon 30-Sep-13 20:15:34

I'm not moaning. I love being a teacher and my colleagues are a happy bunch too.
Some people choose their careers for reasons other than material gain, that said I'm very happy with my salary too!

So......what's your criteria for 'better'? x

chosenone Mon 30-Sep-13 20:15:40

I think we would have more respect if you went and at least volunteered in a school and maybe shadowed a few people, the Senco, the nqt on friday last lesson, anyone teaching in inner city schools. Then come back and give opioions based on what you have seen and experienced. E.g. I could say being a GP Is easy , sat down all day googling symptoms, being a manager of Tesco is easy, delegating all the hard work, going to the loo when ever you want, being a finance manager is easy, sitting down and using a calculator to do the hard work....etc etc but I wont I can't compare because I am not well enough informed.

If you want your children taught by burnt out 67 year olds, your childs progress being used as a tool to decide whether or not they get a payrise, class sizes of 40, a curriculum based on eton and not recommendations of professionals, parents being fi ed for term time holidays, GCSE grade boundaries changing after students have set the exam then fine don't support the strike. We care about education that is the difference.

Cityofgold Mon 30-Sep-13 20:15:43

It is a bit daft to measure teachers against 'everyone' in the private sector. It is after all a free market and individuals in both sectors can change jobs if they wish. For those who think teaching is easy street, take out a loan do a PGCE and good luck. For those teachers who think they are underpaid; hit the job section of the papers.
My wife is seriously contemplating giving up her £60K+ job as a lawyer to retrain as a teacher. I would quite like to move out of the military and be a teacher - one of us needs to keep earning to pay a mortgage!
Of note my pension after 16 years service is already more that my wife's is projected to be in another 20 years. So the public sector is much better off in many ways - a bit less whinging on the part of public sector workers with how hard we have it might be appropriate.

Orangeanddemons Mon 30-Sep-13 20:15:45

Why don't you tell us what you do Coco. You know so we can all judge you..<feels to exhausted to carry on>

Souredstones Mon 30-Sep-13 20:15:55

Coco clearly you have an issue with the public sector.

Join it.

Then realise why public sector workers complain

Euphemia Mon 30-Sep-13 20:16:03

coco Does the same apply to firefighters, doctors, prison officers? Are they whinging martyrs as well?

Arisbottle Mon 30-Sep-13 20:16:06

They probably are better off than some people in the private sector.

I took a huge paycut to become a teacher and even though I am now a senior teacher I am still earning around 50% of my previous wage, when taking into account bonuses etc.

However I see more of my children, I get to do bugger all for twelve weeks a year and am much happier - that is worth more to me than a big wage packet.

So I think I am better off as a teacher than in the private sector even though there are no bonuses, share options etc.

balia Mon 30-Sep-13 20:16:17

Hmm, I'm guessing you didn't do very well at school and it was all your teachers fault, is that it?

I'm not surprised you're annoyed with all these teachers starting threads and moaning...

oh no, wait...

There are no teachers moaning about how hard done by they are - just normal moaning like everyone else does about their job

You just make shit up because you can't debate properly

soverylucky Mon 30-Sep-13 20:16:45

The whining is in response to statements like yours. Start a thread on how over paid nurses are and lots of people will wade in and start saying how hard they work.

How much do you want teachers to be paid?
What jobs are you comparing teaching to?
Do I earn more than someone on a checkout in Lidl? Yes. Do I earn as much as an accountant? No. Your debate is not a debate - it is a series of meaningless statements designed to upset and ridicule people.

YoureAllABunchOfBastards Mon 30-Sep-13 20:17:13

I got as far as 'I don't think teaching is a particularly difficult or skilled job to do'.

Come and do my job for a day - today I have led staff training, dealt with stroppy parents and poorly kids, planned a strategy for the latest idiocy of Gove's and taught four GCSE classes plus a morning session for exam revision. And today has been a good day, as no-one told me to fuck off. Well, not to my face, anyway.

I have worked in the private sector. I'd go back like a shot at the moment. I love teaching but Gove and the fact that every arsehole with an opinion thinks they can pontificate about what I do is seriously getting on my tit ends.

HRHLadyG Mon 30-Sep-13 20:17:29

And ......what about teachers in the Independent Sector? x

echt Mon 30-Sep-13 20:17:31

Yes, the government do pay in. They are the employer. That's how all pensions work.

Hang on though... Google "pension holidays by UK businesses" and see what the precious private sector has been allowed to do for years; not paying into their workers' pensions. Of course public sector pensions look better and so must be run down.

StitchingMoss Mon 30-Sep-13 20:17:36

You debates are pretty shocking OP - still dying to know what you're qualified to do!

Johnny5needsinput Mon 30-Sep-13 20:18:00

Isn't this a thread about a thread?

sonlypuppyfat Mon 30-Sep-13 20:18:13

They do moan a lot

Arisbottle Mon 30-Sep-13 20:18:46

I think there are some schools in which teaching is a difficult and particularly skilled job.

In my school it certainly requires a certain skill set but it is not that difficult tbh. But most jobs are not that that difficult if you have the right temperament.

misskatamari Mon 30-Sep-13 20:19:39

Coco teachers don't get 13 weeks off. We get 13 weeks where we aren't teaching pupils. There is a difference.

Teachers are no incessantly moaning about pay - most of us recognise that our pay is pretty good. What we are worried about is the many issues regarding pension and working conditions, the latter of which will impact of pupils learning. We are also concerned about the governments desire to privatise education and change curriculum at a whim. We are also concerned about the biased press coverage which further helps to undermine teachers and the profession.

Ihatespiders Mon 30-Sep-13 20:20:27

coco44, you have been asked repeatedly, and very politely, to reveal your job, yet you refuse to do so.

In my classroom I would haul you up for not showing sufficient respect to your peers.

janey68 Mon 30-Sep-13 20:20:33

WHAT JOB DO YOU DO, OP?

(Speaking very slowly and clearly!)

coco44 Mon 30-Sep-13 20:21:13

Yes but it is a done deal for most people, they just have to accept that is the way things are.
My job is very skilled I work long hours, it involves very unsociable hours and working sometimes in cold ,dirty conditions.I regularly get physically hurt. I love it though.Couldn't imagine doing anything else.
But it isn't easy.Teachers seem to think they are the only ones who have got it hard.And this strike has really peed me off
if I treated my clients the way, teachers are treating theirs, I wouldn't have a business.

Euphemia Mon 30-Sep-13 20:21:16

I would moan if I was a teacher in England. Michael Gove is ruining education there.

I teach in Scotland: no Gove, no national tests at primary school, no performance-related pay - I love it!

I still don't want to be kneeling on the floor with four- and five year-olds when I'm 67.

jellyandcake Mon 30-Sep-13 20:21:23

I discussed the strike with my Yr 11s, who, by the way, grasped both sides of the debate and were able to talk about it in a rational, reasoned, considered way.

The one point they were adamant about was that they didn't want to be taught by 68yr old teachers and felt it would be detrimental to their education to raise teachers' retirement age.

If things are bad in the private sector then that is something to get angry about, yes. But why insist that everybody's working conditions should be bad rather than raising the standards for all?

echt Mon 30-Sep-13 20:21:49

Annoyingly, private school teachers can benefit from the Superannuation scheme, too. As I never tire of mentioning when some one bangs on about how private education is truly independent. grin If private schools had to pay the same pension contributions to their staff as in the state sector, they'd soon feel the pinch.

Spider7 Mon 30-Sep-13 20:21:49

I don't think teaching is a particularly difficult or skilled job.

And what do you base this most ridiculous & inflammatory observations? Teaching is a VERY skilled job. For those who are not naturally skilled at teaching it can be difficult. Some satisfactory teachers can with guidance & effort can become good teachers.but that's a whole other debate. The job of a teacher is made difficult for all teachers due to the constant changes, the ridiculous amount of paperwork, duplication of data, micro management & all the other negatives already mentioned by others. It is an incredibly tiring occupation.

I know some very bright & very skilled people who can't teach. I know some averagely intelligent & skilled people who are good teachers. I know some who are very bright, skilled & CAN teach..... TEACHING is a skill in itself. It is a skill some can learn, some are natural at & some unfortunately will never be good at. Why do you think some teachers are better than others?

You are clearly up your own backside to come out with such a pathetic comment. Hope you get to see this before its deleted!

tethersend Mon 30-Sep-13 20:21:56

Which private sector?

The private education sector? With longer holidays, better pay and many perks such as accommodation and school fee discount?

Or another one?

Johnny5needsinput Mon 30-Sep-13 20:22:23

What is your job? You said on the last thread it was considered the hardest job to get into. What is it?

BillyBanter Mon 30-Sep-13 20:22:39

I seriously doubt this is true like for like but even it it was the answer would be to fight for better conditions in the private sector.

Why do so many people think the answer to them having a shit time is to make someone else having a shit time have a worse time?

janey68 Mon 30-Sep-13 20:22:43

YY, lots of descriptive writing there but WHAT IS YOUR JOB OP??

coco44 Mon 30-Sep-13 20:23:07

I am a bovine vet

Fairenuff Mon 30-Sep-13 20:23:31

I don't think teachers complain about their jobs. I think they defend their positions when attacked, which is a different matter entirely.

Sorry if I missed it OP, but, what job do you do?

YouAreMyFavouriteWasteOfTime Mon 30-Sep-13 20:23:38

coco44 My job is very skilled I work long hours, it involves very unsociable hours and working sometimes in cold ,dirty conditions.I regularly get physically hurt. I love it though.Couldn't imagine doing anything else.

so you are a teacher then? no?

grin wink grin

MymbleBaratheonBendsTheKnee Mon 30-Sep-13 20:23:47

Why not become a teacher if you think it's so wonderful and 'not particularly difficult or skilled'? hmm

I work for a private sector company. I receive an annual bonus, various corporate memberships and other perks, my Christmas party is paid for, other social events etc etc.

DH is a secondary school teacher in a catchment area with many social problems. It is a high pressure job which has made him ill in the past, but he came from a disadvantaged background and feels a responsibility to teach, this is why he is still in teaching and not the private sector despite considering a move many, many times. He receives a decent salary but there are no perks and his pension has been devalued since he started teaching 10 years ago. He says now that he would advise against going into teaching if asked sad

Arisbottle Mon 30-Sep-13 20:23:48

Coco where have teachers said that they are the only ones who have it hard?

I don't think I have it had at all tbh. I had the common sense to choose a job that allows me to enjoy my life rather than working every hour God sends and getting stressed.

Fairenuff Mon 30-Sep-13 20:24:00

Ah, x posted.

And what teaching experience have you got?

Johnny5needsinput Mon 30-Sep-13 20:24:18

If you are a bovine vet, don't you get paid for tb tests? So don't you take my money, as tax payer?

YoureAllABunchOfBastards Mon 30-Sep-13 20:24:51

Anyone can stick their hand up a cow's arse, surely?

tethersend Mon 30-Sep-13 20:24:56

"if I treated my clients the way, teachers are treating theirs, I wouldn't have a business."

Who are teachers' clients? confused

Arisbottle Mon 30-Sep-13 20:25:01

I suspect the average vet is cleverer than the average teacher. Well done OP.

echt Mon 30-Sep-13 20:25:30

There is so much ambiguity in that outline of your job, OP.

Spider7 Mon 30-Sep-13 20:26:08

Teachers also work unsociable hours! When do you. Think they get their marking, planning, reports, assessments, schemes of works, resources prepared.... done? Jesus! Go shadow a teacher for a week... if you can last that long! Shadow not just at school but go home with them too. Jesus!!

janey68 Mon 30-Sep-13 20:26:55

Bovine vet?

God that's a piss easy job. Fart arsing about in fields and sticking your hand up cows arses. Then whining about a bit of mud and dirt.

Job for failed medics isn't it?

(See, we can all play that game OP grin )

soverylucky Mon 30-Sep-13 20:27:29

Many teachers have a husband/wife/partner who is not a teacher. They often have parents who were not teachers. They have friends who are not teachers. They spend their entire day with people who will grow up to not be teachers. In fact some teachers actually get paid to give career advice to people who will not become teachers. Teachers do actually have a pretty good idea of how their job compares to others. Sometimes it is better and sometimes it is worse.

Johnny5needsinput Mon 30-Sep-13 20:27:46

I don't know any bovine vets who do no ministry work.

Hoist, op, by your one petard.

Arisbottle Mon 30-Sep-13 20:28:14

To be fair I would rather teach year 7 about the Battle of Hastings than stand in a cold field in the middle of the night with my hand up a cow's arse. I can see why you are bitter.

Fairenuff Mon 30-Sep-13 20:28:29

this strike has really peed me off

Good!

It is supposed to 'pee you off'. Doh!

Now are you going to moan about it or write to your MP?

Bit silly to just sit there complaining when you actually have the power to do something about it.

VioletStar Mon 30-Sep-13 20:28:44

I for one want to applaud the OP. How on earth after all the threads on here tonight can you remain so clueless? What do you do OP? I hope reading and digesting the written word isn't part of your job! And maybe folks OP has been let down by education and cannot access some of the brilliant, clear, erudite responses written by other more articulate posters than me. I'm off to drink wine, put my feet up and not do any planning or preparation, cos that's just a big fat whingeing lie. I might even have another whinge about how bad my lot is compared to my DH and his private sector job. You know the one where his employers pay twice what he pays into his pension, give him private medical care, private health insurance, company car etc. He works damned hard for this. But so do I for all I get.

soverylucky Mon 30-Sep-13 20:28:48

There is a shortage of science teachers. Shall I send you an application form for a PGCE?

HRHLadyG Mon 30-Sep-13 20:28:54

You have asked for a debate but don't seem to have anything to say. A most disappointing effort. Must try harder! x

YouAreMyFavouriteWasteOfTime Mon 30-Sep-13 20:29:11

janey I think you mean sticking your hand up cows fannies

BoffinMum Mon 30-Sep-13 20:29:14

I think she works in a coal mine or summat.

ravenAK Mon 30-Sep-13 20:29:26

"if I treated my clients the way, teachers are treating theirs, I wouldn't have a business."

You'd have some cows with shit hot GCSE results, though.

natwebb79 Mon 30-Sep-13 20:29:59

Bovine vet?! So you get paid a small fortune to stick your arm up cows' arses? Bloody hell I thought you were going to say you were a female James Bond or something. I'm really disappointed now...

Johnny5needsinput Mon 30-Sep-13 20:30:01

Ravengrin

soverylucky Mon 30-Sep-13 20:30:23

ah raven I love it!

natwebb79 Mon 30-Sep-13 20:30:50

"if I treated my clients the way, teachers are treating theirs, I wouldn't have a business."

You'd have some cows with shit hot GCSE results, though.

grin

Being a cow vet is very obviously easier than being a teacher

2 can play at this game with spurious, unintelligent comments.

ravenAK Mon 30-Sep-13 20:31:44

I don't think our replies are moo-sic to OP's ears, though.

YouAreMyFavouriteWasteOfTime Mon 30-Sep-13 20:31:55

So you get paid a small fortune to stick your arm up cows' arses?

fannies. grin

Ihatespiders Mon 30-Sep-13 20:31:58

A bovine vet? So you get shat on and stepped on and mooed at?

Sounds like a day in many schools my dear.

thebody Mon 30-Sep-13 20:32:41

sorry op but a bovine vet? what a fucking boring job. sorry to be rude but Jesus wept. can see why you are bitter to be fair.

YouAreMyFavouriteWasteOfTime Mon 30-Sep-13 20:32:43

coco do you stick your arms up cows arses or fannies?

on the archers its always fannies....

Johnny5needsinput Mon 30-Sep-13 20:33:06

Moosic, moothematics, Bov-ology, germoon, what else?

YouAreMyFavouriteWasteOfTime Mon 30-Sep-13 20:34:04

coco do you work with cows that live on grass or agribusiness cows?

MadameLeBean Mon 30-Sep-13 20:36:24

Teachers "clients" are .. The government . That's the problem - look at private schools - the clients are the parents/children

MadameLeBean Mon 30-Sep-13 20:37:04

Not denying that teachers work hard btw smile

cantthinkofagoodone Mon 30-Sep-13 20:37:11

The public sector has lower salaries but greater benefits than the private sector. It should be viewed as a whole package.

The private sector should level up towards the benefits provided in the public sector. As it stands, poverty in retirement is going to be terrible for a lot of people, when they actually get to retire.

Op, I hope you're not passing your lack of respect for teachers onto your kids. They will be a nightmare to teach -- but only marginally more so than most 13 year olds --

natwebb79 Mon 30-Sep-13 20:37:42

Arf at the word 'fannies'.

soverylucky Mon 30-Sep-13 20:39:01

What does a bovine vet earn?

mirry2 Mon 30-Sep-13 20:39:34

There are some very purile comments being aimed at coco44.

YouAreMyFavouriteWasteOfTime Mon 30-Sep-13 20:41:40

yes and I am slightly proud of mine...

did you see the OP's thread that preceded this one?

chicaguapa Mon 30-Sep-13 20:42:33

if I treated my clients the way, teachers are treating theirs, I wouldn't have a business

If Gove treats his employees this way, he won't have any teachers. And then the taxpayer is going to be even more pissed off as there won't be any decent free state education. Which is one of the things the public sector is supposed to provide!

So how about sticking some responsibility back onto the employer who doesn't give a flying fuck about his employees or his clients! angry

sonlypuppyfat Mon 30-Sep-13 20:42:44

It's very wrong to be nasty to a teacher, it makes them sad.

PurpleGirly Mon 30-Sep-13 20:43:31

A vet's starting salary is said to be £30k+ on various websites.

mirry2 Mon 30-Sep-13 20:45:08

The one point they were adamant about was that *they didn't want to be taught by 68yr old teachers *and felt it would be detrimental to their education to raise teachers' retirement age.

Jellycake you do realise that you are perpetuating ageist attitudes, don't you? I really don't like the idea that you have been engaging year 11s in a discussion of your proposed strike even if you have tried to do so in an evenhanded way.

janey68 Mon 30-Sep-13 20:45:12

You could always apply for a post grad teaching course and become a biology teacher OP . If you could hack it.

Johnny5needsinput Mon 30-Sep-13 20:46:06

Do you do ministry work op?

mirry2 Mon 30-Sep-13 20:46:31

coco44 is one person. You are all ganging up against her like a pack of wolves.

PurpleGirly Mon 30-Sep-13 20:47:49

Mirry have you read the thread, her comments and those on the precious thread that were deleted ?

PurpleGirly Mon 30-Sep-13 20:48:05

Previous not precious!

echt Mon 30-Sep-13 20:48:05

Why on earth shouldn't Jellycake discuss her industrial action with her students? It's legal, isn't it?

Johnny5needsinput Mon 30-Sep-13 20:48:54

I am expressing my own opinion. I am asking the op questions. I am not a part of any pack.

PurpleGirly Mon 30-Sep-13 20:49:09

You also don't know the context in which jelly cake had her discussion - a politics lesson, PSHE etc.

Fairenuff Mon 30-Sep-13 20:49:35

coco asked for a debate and has failed to debate anything confused

chicaguapa Mon 30-Sep-13 20:49:42

I've always been a bit confused by this bitterness towards contributing towards the public sector & pensions. I'm sure it's just an idea someone's read in the paper and it's just run and run.

Surely public sector workers are providing a public service, of which the public makes use, in return for their taxes, which goes towards paying for the public sector workers.

Are people saying they don't want to pay for public services?

Of all the things that taxpayers' money is spent on, I'd have thought there were worthier targets of protest than public sector workers' pay & pensions. hmm

mirry2 Mon 30-Sep-13 20:50:08

I don't care purpleygirl. It's still uncalled for.

HRHLadyG Mon 30-Sep-13 20:50:57

How did you learn to be a cow vet? x

jacks365 Mon 30-Sep-13 20:52:23

Purplegirly just been googling it too. Average starting salary is £21k plus perks which includes paid for housing and all bills which takes it up to £30k. You can expect that £21 to increase to £60k in 5 years plus perks again. We have a situation where teachers can't afford housing in certain areas so needed government help ie the key worker scheme and they are being criticised by someone in a profession that provides housing.

ravenAK Mon 30-Sep-13 20:52:56

My students are quite keen to discuss the strike.

Year 11 especially so, after Gove's latest stunt. It would be fair to say they are even more unhappy about it than I am.

soverylucky Mon 30-Sep-13 20:55:24

Perhaps coco shouldn't start two very insulting threads in a very short space of time. There is another thread that is debating the strike but she still decided to start two of her own.

echt Mon 30-Sep-13 20:56:07

mirry, if you look at what the OP has said, they have been very inflammatory and, while sneering at teachers, come over as a bit of a dim bulb; starting a thread to provoke debate, then not engaging in it.

And posting on AIBU.

YouAreMyFavouriteWasteOfTime Mon 30-Sep-13 20:58:05

if you say to think teachers are whiney hypocites out of touch with reality then want a serious debate.

its probably not going to happen. today.

Retropear Mon 30-Sep-13 20:59:02

I agree this thread has got a rather bullying tone too,not nice.

Nobody is bitter re contributing to public sect pay but I think many don't like the sense of entitlement from teachers at the moment.

I wish they'd be honest too.

At the end of the day this is about them,kind of getting sick of the it's all for the children bollocks.

Johnny5needsinput Mon 30-Sep-13 21:00:22

Retro - did you read the last thread from the op on this very subject before it got deleted?

sonlypuppyfat Mon 30-Sep-13 21:00:27

This is just how teachers talk though isn't it, down to you and sarcastic.

Grennie Mon 30-Sep-13 21:01:49

I don't agree with the OP. But these threads are the kind of things some people say as their honest views. The reaction to her seems a bit of a pile on.

mirry2 Mon 30-Sep-13 21:03:14

And, no doubt the decrepitude of 67 year olds. Are you aware of the changing demographics of this country? We are an ageing but healthier and fitter population that previous generations and to encourage young people to believe that the older generation have no place in teaching is plain wrong.

Retropear Mon 30-Sep-13 21:05:36

The arrogance really gets my goat,same arrogance in my dc's far less than perfect school.

soverylucky Mon 30-Sep-13 21:05:43

If this is just about me and not the kids would I purchase resources out of my own money so that everyone has a pen and pencil in class? Would I give up half term with my own children to take my pupils on an educational trip that I think will leave a lasting impression on them? Would I put my kids in childcare so that I can stay behind and run the debating club or revision sessions? Would I cut short a holiday to come into school to run a catch up session for some students who were falling behind and the only date they could do was when I was due to be in a hotel with my dh for an anniversary mini-break? I could go on but sadly some people are convinced it is all about me and my needs. Do I think I am special? No. Do I think I work harder than every other person on the planet? No. Will I defend myself when people who know nothing about me or my job accuse me of being self centred and ignorant.

echt Mon 30-Sep-13 21:06:29

I agree with you mirry, though it won't be too long before the complaints about oldie staff blocking promotions for the whippersnappers come rolling in. Expensive, too.

sonlypuppyfat Mon 30-Sep-13 21:06:29

I think an older teacher is a good idea they might know what they are doing by then and don't need any teacher training days.

ilovesooty Mon 30-Sep-13 21:07:39

This is just how teachers talk though isn't it, down to you and sarcastic

Great generalisation there. hmm

soverylucky Mon 30-Sep-13 21:08:19

Of course sonly - no other job has training sessions. Ever. You just start in a job and it never changes. Ever.

Lara2 Mon 30-Sep-13 21:08:22

OP, perhaps you should remember why you can read this thread and write replies; why you have your well paid job - oh yes, that would be because of teachers.

ilovesooty Mon 30-Sep-13 21:09:26

Teacher training days are mandatory for continuing professional development.

echt Mon 30-Sep-13 21:09:40

You again, sonlypuppyfat? How many times do you need to be told that the training days were forced on teachers?

They. Were. Taken. Out. Of. The. Teachers'. Holidays.

They did not ask for the training days.

Retropear Mon 30-Sep-13 21:09:46

Oh for goodness sake I was a teacher,my sister works in the charity sector,I have friends in all sorts of sectors.They all go that extra mile,change with the times and increase of expectations,frozen pay etc,etc.

Teachers don't have the monopoly.

Snargaluff Mon 30-Sep-13 21:09:50

I don't mind people saying the jobs well paid etc etc. what gets my goat is people going on and on about us being unskilled, underworked, lazy... And now arrogant! Find someone else to educate your children then. I'm no different to anyone else in work. We all work hard in any profession, I wouldn't start telling anyone else that they aren't entitled to their wages.
I am in 36,000 of student loan debt but not entitled to 22,000 a year? The mind boggles

ilovesooty Mon 30-Sep-13 21:10:19

And the training days were taken from teachers' holidays in the first place.

Fairenuff Mon 30-Sep-13 21:11:49

I think an older teacher is a good idea they might know what they are doing by then and don't need any teacher training days

grin grin grin

That would be good. Then teachers could have their holidays back which were taken to use as INSET days.

BoneyBackJefferson Mon 30-Sep-13 21:11:57

I think an older teacher is a good idea they might know what they are doing by then and don't need any teacher training days.

So says someone that does not understand.

But if this is true can I have the holidays that were taken for them back?

Fairenuff Mon 30-Sep-13 21:12:13

x post sooty

sonlypuppyfat Mon 30-Sep-13 21:12:33

I've learnt something new then thanks to a teacher smile

thebody Mon 30-Sep-13 21:15:35

I think it was very rude calling teachers unskilled.

I also think a bovine vet would to me be a freaking boring job.

opinions. don't post if you don't want to hear them.

Retropear Mon 30-Sep-13 21:16:40

Inset days began in 1988 so I'd have thought only those that signed contracts before then need anything given back.hmm

Retropear Mon 30-Sep-13 21:17:15

Opinions are one thing,bullying another.

chicaguapa Mon 30-Sep-13 21:17:28

*Oh for goodness sake I was a teacher,my sister works in the charity sector,I have friends in all sorts of sectors.They all go that extra mile,change with the times and increase of expectations,frozen pay etc,etc.

Teachers don't have the monopoly*

Perhaps you could point us to the threads attacking charity workers and people in all sorts of sectors. Then we can wade in and contribute.

tethersend Mon 30-Sep-13 21:19:29

I'm a teacher who works for social services.

<throws self on grenade>

Retropear Mon 30-Sep-13 21:20:21

Charity workers aren't striking.hmm Just quietly getting on with it.

Re conditions,you have no idea.

janey68 Mon 30-Sep-13 21:20:33

It's interesting that the whining and moaning on here is- oh wait- coming from those who are whining about teachers. Irony, much?

canutesauntie Mon 30-Sep-13 21:20:48

OP are you posting from the Tory party conference?
As a worker in the public sector ( not a teacher) I feel insulted by people in well paid professions saying I don't deserve my contributory pension.
A race to the bottom for salary and benefits isn't going to help anyone, ultimately it will impoverish us all.

thebody Mon 30-Sep-13 21:22:05

rude yes bullying no.

BoneyBackJefferson Mon 30-Sep-13 21:22:19

Retro

What are you going to make teachers do with the 5 days that kids are not in school?

If defending what you do has become bullying then there is little hope, but then it could be said that posting the same BS about a profession is also a form of bullying.

Snargaluff Mon 30-Sep-13 21:23:47

'Charity workers aren't striking. Just quietly getting on with it.

Re conditions,you have no idea.'

Why quietly get on with it? You don't have to!

Fairenuff Mon 30-Sep-13 21:25:16

Firemen were striking last week. I didn't see one single post on mn about the lazy fuckers. Did I miss it?

Euphemia Mon 30-Sep-13 21:26:33

I thought exactly the same, Faire. hmm

Retropear Mon 30-Sep-13 21:28:24

Op can start any thread she likes.

It is possible to discuss,disagree like mature adults instead of a pack of spiteful teenagers.You never know both sides might learn something.

Have it your way though- you're the most hard working,hard done by sector of society with the worse t&cs and every single one of you does an amazing job,works in an amazing school and doesn't need to improve or change what so ever.

Happy now?hmm

soverylucky Mon 30-Sep-13 21:28:27

Plenty of other people have gone on strike in the time that I have been a teacher. I have been instructed to strike twice in thirteen years. I have been on strike once.

soverylucky Mon 30-Sep-13 21:29:40

Who has said that retro and where? If they had said that then you may have a point...

ravenAK Mon 30-Sep-13 21:31:40

Oh I started one, about the lazy entitled fuckers, expecting to be paid for a spot of hose-waving & calendar posing.

Oh no hang on - I didn't. Because I'm not an ignorant arse who assumes I know better about their grievances than they do.

Fairenuff Mon 30-Sep-13 21:32:06

Retro just because you say someone posted that, doesn't mean they did.

janey68 Mon 30-Sep-13 21:32:37

RavenAK- am loving your posts tonight grin

Fairenuff Mon 30-Sep-13 21:32:51

All I ever see them doing is stand around polishing their engines.

Retropear Mon 30-Sep-13 21:34:16

Perhaps people do know about your grievances but simply don't agree.

Janey nice stirring.hmm

Fairenuff Mon 30-Sep-13 21:35:14

Perhaps they do, Retro, like the op who started a thread claiming to want a debate and then fucks off.

janey68 Mon 30-Sep-13 21:35:30

Aaargh she's after me again lol

jellyandcake Mon 30-Sep-13 21:35:55

Marry I'm not striking. Students asked about the strike in form time and I explained what I knew, other students chipped in with what they knew. I said nothing about older teachers working but the whole class were in agreement that teaching is not something that people can do into their old age. There are many jobs which 68yr olds would not be able to do and some of those have been mentioned. It isn't ageist.

Retropear Mon 30-Sep-13 21:36:34

I'm not surprised she has going by some of the posts on here.

jellyandcake Mon 30-Sep-13 21:36:37

Sorry Mirry.

chicaguapa Mon 30-Sep-13 21:37:20

expecting to be paid for a spot of hose-waving & calendar posing

grin grin

thebody Mon 30-Sep-13 21:37:47

Retro,, no one had said that? strange. no one had said all teachers are great and all schools are great as that wouldn't actually make any sense would it?

maillotjaune Mon 30-Sep-13 21:38:04

Retro the OP's 2 threads on this topic have been full of nasty shit about teachers being unskilled whiners. She is not being bullied, just told that she's talking bollocks.

Fairenuff Mon 30-Sep-13 21:40:20

That's the thing though, Retro, she's gone because posters wouldn't put up with her immature crap.

You, yourself are posting nonsense about teachers saying every school is perfect, etc.

No. No-one has said that. Why can't people just discuss or debate without insulting, belittling or making wild assumptions about the teaching profession?

thebody Mon 30-Sep-13 21:40:54

fireman!! huh working on their days off for cash in hand aye!

grin

although I have one protest, the ones who brought the fire engine to our school fete were well a bit past their sell by date. I suppose the fit ones were modelling AGAIN bastards.

ilovesooty Mon 30-Sep-13 21:42:27

I was a teacher for years. I work in the charity sector now. I can't see anyone bullying, but I do see an OP talking utter rubbish and teachers defending their position.

Retropear Mon 30-Sep-13 21:43:50

The tone on here and as for the Bingo thread.hmm

ilovesooty Mon 30-Sep-13 21:45:32

I don't see anything wrong with this thread as a response to the tone and content of the OP. You can of course report the bingo thread if you feel it breaches the site's T&Cs.

soverylucky Mon 30-Sep-13 21:46:23

Did you see the last thread the op started? Do you honestly expect to see a proper debate?

The bingo one is clearly a joke.

Retropear Mon 30-Sep-13 21:47:45

No I don't think it does(I gave up reading it) but the arrogance.hmm

mirry2 Mon 30-Sep-13 21:50:19

Well jellycake I hope you put them right on that then - that some 68 year olds will be very capable of teaching . how do you feel about people who have physical disabilities? Doyou think wheelchair users shouldn't/cant teach, or people with impaired vision? It really is important that young peole don't get a skewed view of what is possible and what will be possible in the future.
If we look back over the last 50-100 years there have been phenomomenal changes in what and how we learn and I think that we should be encouraging the younger generation to look forward to more enlightened times in terms what our whole society can contribute rather than encouraging them to believe that certain groups are not able to contribute

soverylucky Mon 30-Sep-13 21:50:31

such as?

soverylucky Mon 30-Sep-13 21:51:42

that was to retro btw

Retropear Mon 30-Sep-13 21:54:03

The whole thread(Bingo)belittling and taking the piss out of things that do happen and people post about in fecking education forums.

soverylucky Mon 30-Sep-13 21:55:10

Gives up.

BoneyBackJefferson Mon 30-Sep-13 22:04:25

Retropear
Op can start any thread she likes.
Who has said that she can't?

It is possible to discuss,disagree like mature adults instead of a pack of spiteful teenagers.You never know both sides might learn something.

So your responses are all well reasoned and any that disagree with you are immature, or bullies?

Have it your way though- you're the most hard working,hard done by sector of society with the worse t&cs and every single one of you does an amazing job,works in an amazing school and doesn't need to improve or change what so ever.

The only people that have said any of that are those that are having a go at teachers.

Retropear Mon 30-Sep-13 22:08:52

No posters that engage in pack mentality,sarcasm and belittling are bullies.

Evident in some posts towards the op,not me,as I said.

ravenAK Mon 30-Sep-13 22:11:45

Are you feeling deprived of sarcasm & belittling, Retrospear?

Sorry. We're on strike. You can have some on Wednesday.

Fairenuff Mon 30-Sep-13 22:12:28

posters that engage in pack mentality,sarcasm and belittling

And that is those posters having a pop at teachers, saying that they are unskilled, do an easy job, work 9-3 have long paid holidays, etc.

Not only are they misinformed but they are belittling and downright rude.

For all these 'debate' threads, there is a staggering lack of debate!

gordyslovesheep Mon 30-Sep-13 22:12:44

while those who point, tut and head shake at what they perceive as the above are not at all goady grin

I fully support the strike, I would, I am a post grad educated public sector worker earning the magnificent sum of £16k after 17 years service in a specialised profession - it's fucking ace being an over paid public servant hmm

CeliaFate Mon 30-Sep-13 22:15:23

OP, imagine you had a herd of 30 cows.
The ones that are too ill for you to cure, you are blamed for because you should know how to cure them.
The ones that are aggressive are your fault because you should know how to get them to behave.
The ones that are too docile are your fault because clearly they're bored and need stimulation.
The ones that run away are your fault because they're scared of you.
The ones that come to you are your fault because you're not challenging them enough.
Do you get the picture? To say that you don't think teaching is a particularly skilled or difficult job is as insulting to teachers as me saying all you do is shove your hand up a cow's arse.

Retropear Mon 30-Sep-13 22:15:47

Great,others don't.

BoneyBackJefferson Mon 30-Sep-13 22:16:11

Retropear
No posters that engage in pack mentality,sarcasm and belittling are bullies.

The OP has posted a statement against a group of people and that group of people have defended themselves and their profession.

If the OP had posted about some teachers it wouldn't have happened, but she posted generalised rubbish with an open ended statement that is blatantly untrue.

Retropear Mon 30-Sep-13 22:17:08

Some teachers do scare,some don't challenge....-just saying.

gordyslovesheep Mon 30-Sep-13 22:17:27

it's a wonder more people don't go into teaching if it's such a cushy number? Retropear come on you would be ideal for employment in a new private academy - why they don't even want you to have a teaching qualification - you could do it standing on your head I am sure grin

janey68 Mon 30-Sep-13 22:18:43

"Those who can, teach. Those who can't, start threads bellyaching about it ". smile

BoneyBackJefferson Mon 30-Sep-13 22:19:00

The keyword in your post of 22:17 retro is some.

CeliaFate Mon 30-Sep-13 22:19:55

*"My job is very skilled I work long hours, it involves very unsociable hours and working sometimes in cold ,dirty conditions.I regularly get physically hurt*"
Yes, so is mine. I am a teacher. I have had children throwing chairs, pushing me out of the way, I worked in classrooms that have a bucket to catch the drips from the leaking ceiling and smell strongly of stale urine and faeces because the toilets in the corridor are blocked.
You chose your career, I chose mine. So until either of us know a tad more about it, we should perhaps think before we open our mouths to slag the other off.

gordyslovesheep Mon 30-Sep-13 22:19:59

wouldn't last a day in the private sector blah blah blah grin

gordyslovesheep Mon 30-Sep-13 22:20:54

hahaha red wine - ergo wrong thread grin @# go to bed Gordy

Retropear Mon 30-Sep-13 22:23:11

Already done it.Considered going back but would have to do the back to teaching thing.Would prefer to use the op to do something new having spent most of my working life in schools.Not a lot out there though that uses your skills and pays a wage anywhere near the same.

thebody Mon 30-Sep-13 22:24:15

most teachers don't scare and most challenge!

gordyslovesheep Mon 30-Sep-13 22:25:16

good luck - no one wants the cost of experienced teachers in these new academies

CeliaFate Mon 30-Sep-13 22:25:45

Some teachers do scare,some don't challenge....-just saying Yes, and I'm just saying that we're damned if we do and damned if we don't.

As I mentioned previously, if teaching is so easy please pick up an application form.

JakeBullet Mon 30-Sep-13 22:26:42

I fully admit to berating you on your other thread OP because you dismissed an entire profession in a very insulting manner which irritated me on behalf of the excellent teachers I know.

Firstly not ALL teachers are on strike tomorrow...my DS is off on a visit to an environmental centre with his school and all teachers are in.

Secondly, the skills which teachers and other school staff use are fantastic and often cannot be taught. As an example they deal with the likes of my DS who is autistic and they handle his varying needs with understanding and support while also managing the needs of rest of the class. What is that saying about juggling several balls at once?

Thirdly many teachers DO work in the private sector.

Lastly, many if not most teachers will do many hours of unpaid work above and beyond what they are paid for. In the same way that those private sector employees might also do.

And their strike is not about pay either so comparing this to the private sector doesn't work.

And you were rude and dismissive about teacher training...perhaps apply to do the PGCE....I think you would be in for a shock.

CeliaFate Mon 30-Sep-13 22:27:20

If there's nothing out there that uses your skills and pays a wage anywhere near the same, why not do the back to teaching thing? Sounds like the easier option.

ilovesooty Mon 30-Sep-13 22:27:39

Some teachers do scare,some don't challenge....-just saying

Yes: there are ranges of competence in all lines of work.

I don't see as much bashing of any other profession though.

ThisIsBULLSHIT Mon 30-Sep-13 22:28:01

I double dare you to walk into my school and teach one of our classes. Oh and you could differentiate for all our SEN pupils to ensure they make measurable progress. As well as the children who have a 1:1 adult because their challenging behaviour means they can't access any teaching unless they have someone to help them through the day.

You could then have a meeting with a parent and social workers about how to best protect their child from an abusive family member.
Then you might like to plan a weeks worth of lessons in line with the new curriculum.

After that you could collect your own children and shovel tea at them, bath them and stick them in bed before you sit down at 7 and work through till about 10, making sure all your class receive detailed feedback on the work they did today. Also type up all the notes from your meeting. And finish your planning.

No. It takes no skill at all. It's not difficult to do. I am just moaning.

Retropear Mon 30-Sep-13 22:34:00

Celia I went from school,to teaching college to schools.When you get near a half century you get itchy feet.If I do/pay for a course I'd like to do something new before it's too late.

Having said that I do have a hankering to do something re supporting adult literacy with those struggling(not sure if such a job exits).

soul2000 Mon 30-Sep-13 22:37:15

Why are teachers so easy to wind up, you are like wind up clocks.

I used to be able to wind up every teacher when i was 16.

It was great fun!

You really should not feed the threads,let these threads run out of steam and die.

I believe this thread is a laugh for Coco 44.

Teachers are feeding Coco 44 dont do it.

echt Mon 30-Sep-13 22:40:53

Still so gleeful about baiting teachers, soul200?

Not moved on from being 16, then.

soul2000 Mon 30-Sep-13 22:44:25

Echt. Actually i have a lot of friends who are teachers.

Fairenuff Mon 30-Sep-13 22:45:02

Retro those jobs do exist but are usually outside the 9-5 to fit in with adults who work. I did adult literacy support as a volunteer in the evenings and loved it. Had to give it up when DH's hours changed.

Fairenuff Mon 30-Sep-13 22:45:57

Oh, I meant to say, check with your local colleges. You could offer to volunteer first to get some experience and see what the job entails before you commit. There are fewer vacancies though.

echt Mon 30-Sep-13 22:46:16

Which makes your crowing all the more inexplicable.

ParkerTheThief Mon 30-Sep-13 22:49:06

I'd love to see the OP teaching.

I know I couldn't stick my hand up a cow's arse in an efficient and effective manner, but of course every bugger's an expert on teaching

BoffinMum Mon 30-Sep-13 22:55:25

I used to wear my coat in class, it was so cold, and gloves too sometimes. In fact one year I ended up in hospital with a nasty infection due to being horrendously run down and cold all the time (no heating in my teaching block at all for the entire winter, just a little fan heater I had bought myself). Outdoors I used to have to supervise children for hours at a time in the freezing cold as well, every Thursday, being periodically pelted with footballs and so on.

On more than one occasion, colleagues were attacked by disturbed pupils. One year there were several arson attacks on the school. Once the school IT system electrocuted me and I was flung across the room.

Sometimes it was impossible to take a loo break for 8-9 hours, the job was so demanding. It was also difficult to have a coffee or tea or even a glass of water during the day, on occasion. Lunch was not always possible either.

In return parents used to moan and shout at me. Once I got a five page letter written in purple ink to the head teacher about my alleged inadequacies as a teacher, despite the fact that the child concerned had scored really well in her exam thanks to me coaching her for free in my lunch hour. FFS.

Guess what? I fucked off and stopped teaching thanks to all this crap. £18k a year I was earning after 7 years in the job. Even then there was no way you could live in London properly on £18k.

Working in the private sector as a journalist, and prior to that a temp, I experienced better hours, better perks, better money and a lot more breaks.

So do fuck off, all you teacher bashers. It is a hard job and you should be fucking grateful someone takes the trouble to teach your kids at all given how they are treated. If you don't like it, try doing it at home yourselves.

Retropear Mon 30-Sep-13 22:55:26

Ooo thanks Faire.Are there courses you need to do first?

soul2000 Mon 30-Sep-13 22:55:27

echt. I am not crowing, its just humour.

The stories i have heard from some of my teacher friends about how they would bully, their teachers are hilarious.

Fairenuff Mon 30-Sep-13 23:01:13

I had to attend a training course which was run by the college prior to being accepted as a volunteer. The qualified tutors lead the groups and I was just supporting.

Teaching adults is obviously very different to teaching children, for many reasons. It was fascinating, actually, and I learned a lot.

echt Mon 30-Sep-13 23:01:26

soul2000 when I saw your name as the last poster, I knew you'd say it was humorous.

Behave unpleasantly. Called on it. Oh, it was joke.

hmm

soul2000 Mon 30-Sep-13 23:10:53

I have a close friend who is a head of primary school another who is a
senior french /german teacher and another one who is head of politics at a well regarded 6th form college.

I know how difficullt the job is , i know gove is a "Dickhead" i know if i had my friends as teachers 25 years ago i would not have ended up with
4 Es and 1 D at Gcse in 1988.

However 1 ex friend of mine who was a P.E teacher actually got away with teaching without actually passing GCSE Maths . I am not Joking he
just lied about it and got away with it for 9 years. He was a joke of a teacher, thankfully he is not in teaching now. However he managed to wrangle a £ 20k settlement for unfair dismissal.

mirry2 Mon 30-Sep-13 23:15:08

soul2000 how important is it for a PE teacher to have GCSE maths?

soul2000 Mon 30-Sep-13 23:16:22

Its a legal requirement, surely?

ravenAK Mon 30-Sep-13 23:18:40

Doubt it.

I'm an English teacher & I don't have an English degree, for example.

Actually, I've only got one GCSE, thinking about it. In Ancient Greek as it happens.

mirry2 Mon 30-Sep-13 23:24:20

I know maths GCSE or equivalent is a basic requirement now for undergrad degrees and PGCE but I don't think it was always the case. Do you need a graduate teaching qualification to teach PE? Surely there are lots of other PE/Games related qualifications you could have instead?

PurpleGirly Mon 30-Sep-13 23:27:21

Raven what teaching qualification do you have then?

Mirry you need a PGCE to TEACH PE but can coach with coaching qualifications.

ravenAK Mon 30-Sep-13 23:28:10

You need a PGCE or equivalent to teach, & to get on it you need English & Maths GCSE or equivalent, subject-specific qualifications, & a decent first degree (precise requirements vary).

Unless you're wanting to teach in an Academy of course, when you don't need to be qualified.

PurpleGirly Mon 30-Sep-13 23:28:14

And yes it is a legal requirement to have a maths a GCSE to be a teacher (and English).

PurpleGirly Mon 30-Sep-13 23:29:19

Or Raven are you old like me and have O Levels!

ravenAK Mon 30-Sep-13 23:32:10

I have a PGCE in English, with History as my second subject, PurpleGirly.

First degree's in Classics - Latin, Greek, that sort of thing. Blagged my way onto my PGCE; they wouldn't accept me if I applied now, 15 years later.

I have lots of O Levels & A Levels.

But I've taught, for example, Geography & Drama...neither of which I studied past the age of 14. It's quite common practice to teach outside your subject specialism.

soul2000 Mon 30-Sep-13 23:41:55

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ravenAK Mon 30-Sep-13 23:43:32

Did he tell you all about his unfair dismissal payoff?

PurpleGirly Mon 30-Sep-13 23:50:19

I know a raven, I am an English teacher who has taught Drama, RE, History and ICT as well as a English.

soul2000 Mon 30-Sep-13 23:53:15

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

soul2000 Mon 30-Sep-13 23:55:51

I am sorry but this is the truth. The other teachers i know are great but not him.

ravenAK Tue 01-Oct-13 00:01:17

So this dodgy chap told you he got £40k as an unfair dismissal payoff after being sacked for what would clearly be gross misconduct, but you know he was lying & you know he actually got £20k?

I believe you on the boozing & the bullshit, though...

fcukpsector Tue 01-Oct-13 00:20:11

I think most of those working in the public sector don't realise how well off they really are. Would love to see how far they got striking in the private sector. I have no sympathies with any of them. If you don't like your pay, terms conditions etc go work somewhere else instead of moaning all the bloody while.

soul2000 Tue 01-Oct-13 00:24:18

Raven. I am not on the booze and the bull shit. The other teachers i know. know all about him and think he was a "Disgrace to Teaching"

Because things look like they are Shit does not mean they are. I could even name him but i wont.

ilovesooty Tue 01-Oct-13 00:24:48

I think most of those working in the public sector don't realise how well off they really are. Would love to see how far they got striking in the private sector. I have no sympathies with any of them. If you don't like your pay, terms conditions etc go work somewhere else instead of moaning all the bloody while

Interesting nc there...

ravenAK Tue 01-Oct-13 00:27:42

soul2000, I believe you that this guy was a disgrace to teaching. & now he isn't teaching, so that's good, yes?

I'm just a tad sceptical about the megabucks payoff. I know four teachers who've been dismissed in the last few years, & if any of them are quids in, they've kept remarkably quiet about it.

The management at the school would have to be extraordinarily inept to leave themselves open to such a claim.

FirstVix Tue 01-Oct-13 00:40:44

fcuk I DO Like my P&C - it's one of the reasons I don't want them to change drastically; not improve, just not change too much.

<must stop marking and go to bed!!>

soul2000 Tue 01-Oct-13 01:50:32

Raven Ak. All this is true but i have asked for a couple of threads to be removed because they might identify me.

The Management were inept.

The reason i know it was only half the amount he said because i was told the most he could get would be 6 months pay by somebody who is a education lawyer.

He used to say he was on £37k pa but knowing him it was more like £27k So even £ 20k was doubtful that is very intresting.

ravenAK Tue 01-Oct-13 02:15:52

£37pa is roughly what I get, at the top of a classroom teacher's upper payscale.

I think it took me 10 years or so to get there, all of them requiring evidence that I was doing a good job.

So unless Mr Bullshit had some sort of management responsibility, &/or many years of successful teaching, no, he wasn't on £37k.

Also, 'the most he could get would be 6 months pay' means if he'd been dismissed unfairly, & could prove it. Which would not be the case if he was pissed at work (gross misconduct), unless the management really, really spannered up gathering evidence, he'd be entitled to absolutely NOTHING.

So - & I'm not having a go at you, you obviously believed his shite & have just parroted it back - we have, in fact, an inexperienced teacher who was rubbish, lied about his qualifications, got fired, & in the vanishingly unlikely event that he did come out of it with a few quid, that was down to his particular school having the most incompetent management in education history - but given that he lied about his pay off, there probably wasn't one. At all.

& yet this gets somehow converted into 'However 1 ex friend of mine who was a P.E teacher actually got away with teaching without actually passing GCSE Maths . I am not Joking he
just lied about it and got away with it for 9 years. He was a joke of a teacher, thankfully he is not in teaching now. However he managed to wrangle a £ 20k settlement for unfair dismissal.'

...most of which is, not to put too fine a point on it, bollocks hearsay.

& yet there you go, repeating it as fact. Teacher...unqualified...was crap...big fat payoff.

& then people wonder why teachers get pissed off with being slagged off. FFS.

jellyandcake Tue 01-Oct-13 06:15:42

Mirry we have disabled teachers at my school. I don't see how on earth that is relevant.

Did I put them right? No, I listened to their well reasoned arguments and lot them reach their own conclusion. They weren't scorning older people as useless and incapable of work but they didn't believe teaching is a job that can be done until 68. From a personal perspective, I will definitely not be in the profession until then and I don't know any teachers who expect to be either.

englishteacher78 Tue 01-Oct-13 06:44:17

We have teachers that work past retirement age at my school. But it's not for everyone. I can see ways round that issue by moving staff from the 'front line'.
Not all subjects are equal. I share the Drama teaching with an older colleague (not at retirement age but who has had health problems). We are lucky to be able to split the classes so I do the practical teaching and she does the theory.

Fairenuff Tue 01-Oct-13 08:35:07

I think most of those working in the public sector don't realise how well off they really are. Would love to see how far they got striking in the private sector. I have no sympathies with any of them. If you don't like your pay, terms conditions etc go work somewhere else instead of moaning all the bloody while

I think most of those women working at home don't realise how well off they really are. Would love to see how far they got without men supporting them or trying to work themselves. I have no sympathies with any of them. If you don't like cleaning, cooking and changing nappies, don't expect a man to take you on, stay at home with your parents instead of moaning all the bloody while.

It's a good job mn wasn't around during the suffragette movement eh?

CloverkissSparklecheeks Tue 01-Oct-13 08:37:51

I just cannot understand your arguement. Yes some teachers may moan but then so do many people about their jobs, I don't see why they are not allowed to.

I know several teachers (heads of various things/SENCOs) and yes they do get lots of time off in the holidays, especially if they are organised with their preparation/planning but I also know that at 11pm/midnight during term time they are still doing paperwork as they have left work (not at 330 of course) picked their kids up from afterschool club, taken them to their various activities, cooked tea, put the kids to bed then started on their papaerwork for the following day.

That said, they may have a moan but they love their jobs, knew what they were getting into and for them the pros outweigh the cons.

I am not actually sure what you are saying, public sector workers are often lower paid but they also know that when they get into the roles, good pensions and other conditions are almost like a compensation for these things. I am a public sector worker and could earn at least £20-30k more a year elsewhere but I chose public sector as it is more flexible with my kids amongst other things. I don't really see why that sparks spiteful comments if people moan about their jobs though.

I do understand not everyone would agree that teachers are as hard done by as publicised or as all teachers may say, my friend is a uni lecturer (not in a core subject) earning twice as much as a teacher and working a lot less hours and they still moan which irritates me a bit but you are not actually putting together useful comments that anyone can debate on.

Oooh that was a bit of a rant!

CloverkissSparklecheeks Tue 01-Oct-13 08:44:14

None of the teachers at my son's school have ever gone on strike either, they value their jobs too much as realise they would be letting the children down. I really admire them for that, doesn't mean it doesn't mean as much to them as other teachers but they just would not do it.

Grennie Tue 01-Oct-13 11:40:21

Just wanted to say about uni lecturers. There are vast differences in payand workload. From prestigious unis where it is pretty cushy, to hourly paid teaching lecturers who often get a rough deal. You really can't compare from 1 person's experience.

icetip Tue 01-Oct-13 11:55:41

"Just wanted to say about uni lecturers. There are vast differences in payand workload. From prestigious unis where it is pretty cushy, to hourly paid teaching lecturers who often get a rough deal. You really can't compare from 1 person's experience."

What a pile of unhelpful bollocks, clearly derived from "1 person's experience".

DadOnIce Tue 01-Oct-13 11:58:14

Here's the paradox. Those who complain the loudest and longest about teachers going on strike will also be those who complain the loudest and longest if the educational "reforms" fail their children. And they'll blame teachers for it. headdesk

DadOnIce Tue 01-Oct-13 11:59:56

Going on strike does not mean you don't "value your job". Quite the opposite. It usually means you want the conditions under which you work to be those in which you can do your job properly.

Worried123456 Tue 01-Oct-13 12:10:58

Going on strike also doesn't mean you ware letting children down. Quite the opposite-it means you are fighting to not let the children be let down by the government.

Cloverkiss, do you want your children taught by over worked, miserable 67 year olds or people with no qualifications at all? Or would you rather a team of bright enthusiastic graduates who will stay in the job because they love it and will give your children the benefits of their experience?! Do you really think the people striking are letting the children down?!

Retropear Tue 01-Oct-13 12:11:31

But teachers are striking for themselves and some of the "reforms" are much needed.

Retropear Tue 01-Oct-13 12:12:47

Some schools/ teachers already are letting kids down regardless of strikes.

SuffolkNWhat Tue 01-Oct-13 12:19:27

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

cathpip Tue 01-Oct-13 12:31:01

I get really quite cross about people having a go at teachers, I know there are some utterly shite ones but. My mum may have had 13 weeks were she was not in a classroom teaching, but she was the only person sat by the pool on our two week holiday marking essays and lesson planning, I never saw anyone else doing their job whilst on holiday. Oh and the shock on people's faces when we said "no mums not a writer, she's a teacher" was priceless. My hat goes off to anybody who teaches, the amount of shit they have to put up with, they deserve double what they are paid.

CloverkissSparklecheeks Tue 01-Oct-13 12:33:15

Not necessarily, its still up to the individual.

I did not say I thought that, I said those teachers did sorry if my post was not clear. They may also have been lying about their reasons of course. I did not mention my opinion on it, I am not that silly on a thread like this as either way it would he jumped on. I just said I admire them for standing up for what they believe even if different from the majority.

I wonder if the difference is they are a very young staff team so it could be that they are not considering what the implications of not striking are.

Re the uni lecturers. I did not for one second suggest the case I mentioned was the same for all - what a ridiculous thing to say. Surely we are all drawing from our own experiences as opposed to speaking for everyone.

Retropear Tue 01-Oct-13 12:46:23

But teachers don't have the monopoly re working through their holiday.My dad was in the forces and always took his briefcase.Dp in IT often works on leave ditto sister in the charity sector.

Most sector workers work hard and put up with shite.

DadOnIce Tue 01-Oct-13 12:54:56

If schools (not most teachers, but the system) are letting people down, and other professions have it hard too, this is a reason to support strikes, not petulantly moan about them.

It's not a race to the bottom. People who have a voice should not silence it because others do not have one.

Retropear Tue 01-Oct-13 13:04:58

It's a word wide market,there is no money and budgets are tight.Tbh I think most are glad to have a job so get on with the pay freezes,less staff,more work etc.

It's life.

I personally don't want to pay more tax to fund these demands,would rather have more to put in our own pensions.

chicaguapa Tue 01-Oct-13 13:05:18

But teachers don't have the monopoly re working through their holiday

No but they do get told to put up and shut up because they get 13 weeks holiday a year. hmm

soul2000 Tue 01-Oct-13 13:05:28

Thank you Raven for putting me straight. a bit of background on the said person.

He worked in education from 1999-2010 he worked in different areas in
england the two incidents were 7 years apart

He was graded outstanding in two assesements by ofsted and the other gradings were good.

The whole of the P.E dept of that school was poison and at each others
throats.
He was recorded by a another member of P.E staff when i was there being goaded in to calling the management, the said P.E teacher then
played the recorded conversation of the hidden dictaphone to the senior
members of the management team.

A woman pe teacher who disliked him heard him swear at the boy, he denied he swore at the boy. The woman P.E teacher who told him she would not report it than joined in with the poison.

You can see what a department of poison it was.

I am not saying he was not a disgrace of a teacher but their are other facts as well.

P.S the school is located in one of the most deprived areas of the country
and he was always given the kids the other teachers could not deal with.

Retropear Tue 01-Oct-13 13:06:01

Actually Gove has improved some things in our school.

chicaguapa Tue 01-Oct-13 13:07:41

I personally don't want to pay more tax to fund these demands,would rather have more to put in our own pensions

Who's asking you to pay more tax? confused

Retropear Tue 01-Oct-13 13:10:27

There is no money.

Where do you suggest the funding should one from to pay for teachers to retire earlier than everybody else,have pensions we can't afford etc.

There is no money fairy.

Grennie Tue 01-Oct-13 13:20:43

Are teachers pensions in line with local government? We can't retire till 67.

chicaguapa Tue 01-Oct-13 13:29:27

Retro Actually I'll be retiring earlier than teachers and other public sector workers and I pay less into my DB pension than them.

But you are concentrating on pensions when there have been posts and posts about the main gripes being about working conditions and detrimental changes to the state education system. So either you are being a bit disingenuous or a bit stupid. confused

Do you want your taxes to fund a shit education system or a better one? The money fairy can take its funding from the MPs pay & benefits or from the millions it spends on wars. I'd rather spend it on DC's education frankly.

<vows not to respond to anymore posts that seem deliberately goading>

Retropear Tue 01-Oct-13 13:42:05

Well considering the NUTs reasons for striking poster focuses on t&c only I'm hardly stupid so no need for rudeness.hmm

Some of the changes are well overdue and my dc have benefited,sorry.

Re spending money yes I'd like the education budget to go on buildings,more teachers and resources not PPA time,pensions we can't afford or a retirement age we can no longer afford.

We are living for longer everybody has to deal with that.

tethersend Tue 01-Oct-13 13:45:30

"People who have a voice should not silence it because others do not have one."

Very well put.

Grennie Tue 01-Oct-13 13:46:05

We are living for longer. But the amount of time we spend in poor health before death, is also increasing.

janey68 Tue 01-Oct-13 13:48:00

Who has said teachers are asking to retire earlier than everyone else?

It seems to me the strikes are very much a last resort because of t and c being eroded far beyond what is reasonable (given that yes, we're all having to get used to paying a lot more into our pension pots)
And as for the constant messing about with curriculum and exams... Gove is an idiot who doesn't look at what's going on under his nose.

The teachers I know ( whether they are choosing to strike or not) have Thought long and hard about this. None of them like the situation and its a very last resort because they fear for the future of education

Retropear Tue 01-Oct-13 14:03:02

Errr the NUT they don't agree with the gov raising the age you get your pension.

Soooooo just how are we supposed to fund everybody living longer but not working longer?

janey68 Tue 01-Oct-13 14:05:59

There are other professions (eg forces, police) where retirement age has been earlier than many others for years, so it's utter bollocks to say the teachers are asking to retire earlier than everyone else, as was stated upthread

CloverkissSparklecheeks Tue 01-Oct-13 14:08:55

For the record I have not said I do not support the strikes at all.

Grennie Tue 01-Oct-13 14:12:52

I support the strikes. But it is obvious that forces and fire fighter retirement ages need to be lower. You physically arenot up to it beyond a certain age.

janey68 Tue 01-Oct-13 15:10:18

I'm not disputing that grennie: I am disputing that teachers are asking to retire younger than all other workers as was stated . An astonishing amount of misinformation on this thread

Retropear Tue 01-Oct-13 17:13:53

The NUT is campaigning against teachers pensions being linked to the state pension at 68.

So when the rest of us retire at 68 what are they proposing teachers do?

It's ludicrous, just how to they expect people to have enough in their pension when living longer.

confused

englishteacher78 Tue 01-Oct-13 17:22:37

I object to the fact they've changed all 3 of the 'tent poles' of the pension. Given the situation I would happily pay more and work longer to get the pension I signed up for. But that's not what's happening.
Interestingly, many teachers take early retirement as it is (particularly those with a large amount of contact time). I think there are a range of imaginative solutions none of which are currently being considered.
Completely different issue but has anyone considered where all the new jobs for young people will come from if people don't retire? The graduate market is already very difficult!

Retropear Tue 01-Oct-13 17:26:54

It's only a few years extra,hardly a lifetime.

soul2000 Tue 01-Oct-13 17:38:11

Raven and everybody else. I have said i have 6 friends as teachers and i respect all of them.

You may of read a post of mine on the 3rd of september this year, about
the most brilliant person i know, on the forcing people to continue with maths and english until they achieve a C post.

If you have read my post, you will know that i admire my friend who at the age of 13 was deemed "Thick" and unteachable and 10 years after leaving education without a single qualification, decided to get an education and ended up with a masters in chemistry.

You will also know that she has gone in to the classroom to help pupils
like herself and puts herself out to ridiculous levels for a 2nd year salary of £23k.

My respect for my friend and other friends in teaching bar "HIM" is great.
I am pointing out that "OFSTED" are crap in rating him because he when needed could put a good lesson on and fool them.

Also i am just pointing out that like any profession/job 1 in 10 is not up to the job their are doing.

clam Tue 01-Oct-13 18:39:54

The thing is, unless you have actually done a teaching job, you have absolutely no idea how physically demanding it is. Yes, and for nurses too. Paperwork and preparation aside (and the poster who objected to PPA time has no idea of the direct and indirect benefits to the children from their teachers having a small amount of scheduled, ring-fenced time to plan, prepare and assess their work) from the minute the children arrive in school, teachers are on their feet performing. All day. Juggling behaviour, delivering lessons in a lively and inspiring way, batting a constant barrage of questions back with informed answers and thinking of inventive ways to move children's learning on. There's no let-up. No time to go to the loo or even grab a coffee many days. If you're feeling the slightest bit under the weather, there's no "well, I'll take it easy today." If you're on the premises and vertical, you're fair game and you have to produce the goods.

I think most of us will struggle to do that at 60, let alone at 67. I don't have any particular objection to working beyond 60 in principle, but not at the chalk-face, as I'm pretty sure I won't be able to do as an effective job as I do today. My friend who is a district nurse says the same thing. Office workers have the much easier physical option. I know that INSET days at school are immeasurably less tiring than days when the children are in.

soul2000 Tue 01-Oct-13 18:48:16

Clam. What if and i am sure there are some teachers of 67or 68 who still have the energy.
They want to continue teaching because they thrive and still love teaching kids "Maybe not the politics".

Would you say to them you have got to stop because your 68 or do you think they should decide when to stop.

However i do agree that for a lot of teachers 63-65 might be the right age to retire but everyone is different.

clam Tue 01-Oct-13 19:02:27

Then they should be able to continue if they want to.
But that doesn't mean everyone else has to be forced to.

gormenghast Tue 01-Oct-13 19:20:27

As a retired woman whose husband has worked all his life in the private sector, I have to say that out all of our retired friends teachers are on average the most affluent as shown by their homes, holidays and general standard of living.Of course there are the exceptions like ex BP directors, but they make up a very small percentage of the retired population as compared to teachers.
Teachers also have wonderful job security. My husband, like many fellow private sector employees has been made redundant (three times and on the last occasion we would have lost our house at age 60 had not my father died and left us some money.We have also endured pay cuts and not being paid for two/three months simply to keep the company going. This included the directors.Many of our friends who worked for small to medium sized companies have endured this lack of security, which also means that payments into pensions are put on the back burner, as money has to tide one over during the bad times.
Also, I don't know who the poster was who said all her private sector acquaintances earned around £100,000, because most senior people in small and medium sized firms don't earn anywhere near that figure.In fact if one looks at UK salary averages only a small percentage of the population earn that level of salary. I should also add that my husband is a graduate with a very good degree as are most of our private sector friends.

soul2000 Tue 01-Oct-13 19:32:43

Gormeghost. You are so right about everything you say.

As a percentage only 1% of the U.K workforce earned 100k or more
only 10% of the U.K workforce earned over 50k.

janey68 Tue 01-Oct-13 19:39:51

Quite a few of the schools in our area have had redundancies over the last few years so that's rubbish about job security

Retropear Tue 01-Oct-13 19:54:10

It's a masseeeeve procedure to make redundancies in teaching.I've been through it as a school but thankfully didn't have it happen to me.

In the private sector it can be instant,no discussion and you're at the mercy re individual companies as to pay.A few family and friends have been through it where they're told at a meeting and not even allowed to return to their desks being instead escorted off the premises.

Companies can do what they like when they need to save money.

janey68 Tue 01-Oct-13 20:06:30

... And that's a great way to treat employees is it?
Jeez, let's aspire to something a little more humane and professional

BoffinMum Tue 01-Oct-13 20:12:23

Gormen, how do graduate salaries compare in that age group (i.e. at the end of career)?

ilovesooty Tue 01-Oct-13 20:24:41

Teachers also have wonderful job security

Not since so many schools became academies and the new capability procedures were implemented last month.

Retropear Tue 01-Oct-13 20:31:23

Who says people don't.hmm

The fact is it's business,it's life in a lot of cases and in anything that has a security element eg finance,IT it could be argued as necessary.

Simply pointing out that previous poster was right,there is more security in teaching.

cardibach Tue 01-Oct-13 21:04:03

^As a percentage only 1% of the U.K workforce earned 100k or more
only 10% of the U.K workforce earned over 50k.^
soul what has this got to do with teachers? Sorry if I am missing something...
No classroom teacher, even on the upper pay scale, earns over £50k. The vast majority of managers don't either (I was Head of a core subject, responsible for 5 teachers and a TA, and my pay only just crossed £40k). Could you explain to what your comment refers?
Also, there is no job security for teachers. Redundancies can happen exactly as they do in the private sector - if there are too many staff due to pupil numbers falling, someone has to go. There is a process, but it is not difficult.

BoneyBackJefferson Tue 01-Oct-13 21:08:22

Retropear
"It's a masseeeeve procedure to make redundancies in teaching.I've been through it as a school but thankfully didn't have it happen to me.

In the private sector it can be instant,no discussion and you're at the mercy re individual companies as to pay"

In the private sector it is not instant, they have to follow set down procedures and its the same with regard to redundancy pay.

soul2000 Tue 01-Oct-13 21:43:24

Cardibach. My comment refers to Gormenghast remark about the perception of some that think people in the private sector are on 100k a year.

When many middle and senior managers in the private sector are probably on between 30-45k pa.

The comment was not aimed at teachers but in reply to Gormenghast.

englishteacher78 Wed 02-Oct-13 05:40:55

Well, all I know is I earn less than my fellow MA politics graduates - who went to work in Brussels. But more than my Cambridge educated scientist friend who works in education at London Zoo. However, the key thing is we all enjoy our work!
With regards retirement age the whole nation is going to have to get creative. Otherwise our youth unemployment rate will spiral out of control.

jasminerose Wed 02-Oct-13 06:23:23

Clsm - Its no difference to nursery managers/Child care staff who have much longer hours with the children. I know many all ready in 50s+ who are planning to do until 68. I dont see why its different for teachers.

jasminerose Wed 02-Oct-13 06:25:52

Also what about men doing building/labouring jobs I know plenty of them aged up to 70. People are much fitter these days.

englishteacher78 Wed 02-Oct-13 07:28:48

Generalisation. My mum had to take early retirement from the NHS. My dad never made it to his 'gold plated' civil service pension at 60, he died at 55.
Not everyone is the same. More flexibility is required in the system in general.

Grennie Wed 02-Oct-13 07:30:13

I know quite a few people in the trades. As they get older most have younger people who do the more physically demanding stuff, working with them. Or they are selective what jobs they take on. It isnt just fitness. For example, plumbers tend to have dodgy knees, labourers bad backs, etc.

People are living longer. They are also spending longer being ill or disabled before death. And the poorer you are, statistically the longer that time is.

If you are in Local Government, for most the pension age is now 67. I foresee those in the private sector with pensions in the future retiring before anyone in the public sector.

And women disproportionately make up the workforce of the public sector.At the moment, grandmothers are a key source of childcare for many mothers - especially low paid ones. This just won't be possible in the future and will have knock on effects.

Grennie Wed 02-Oct-13 07:33:27

Boney, I think everyone should get decent redundancy pay. But most people working in the private sector work in small businesses. Yes there is a procedure to go through. But with consultation it shouldn't take more than a month. And most people only get statutory redundancy pay which is pitifully low. I know because I have made people redundant, so know the legal procedure well.

janey68 Wed 02-Oct-13 07:37:34

... And I suspect if all labourers/ builders were part of a profession which takes a minimum 4 years to get into, requires graduate status and then requires you to pay 10% of your earnings for 40 years in order to receive an agreed retirement package, then I suspect we would see labourers striking in force

jasminerose Wed 02-Oct-13 07:45:34

Janey68 - You wont see strikers in labourers, nursery staff etc as they will work as long as they have to as no pension. I have a 2.1 degree and work up to 50 hours for 15k. I would never dream of striking. Its what I signed up for.

janey68 Wed 02-Oct-13 07:51:56

Well obviously if you don't pay into a pension then you're not going to be striking about them!
This isn't a race to the bottom you know, as to who has the best degree and works the longest hours for the lowest pay! Though I can see that for some, the thread has descended into that.

This is about a specific set of circumstances facing the teaching profession and as a parent I fear deeply what Gove is doing to the education system

Grennie Wed 02-Oct-13 07:53:27

Without strikes and unions, none of us would have paid holidays, maternity leave, etc.

Retropear Wed 02-Oct-13 08:48:55

God if people paid what teachers paid in for 40 years and got the same pension they'd be thrilled.

Many,many jobs involve degrees for less than teachers get.

Many nursery workers will have an early years degree.

Performance related pay is much needed so don't get the beef there.

Sorry a lot of Gove has brought in is much needed.

Free schools are a daft idea,not keen on some of the curriculum,think Spag has been much needed,but they're not striking about free schools or the curriculum.

Pensions,performance related pay and PPA cuts (also much needed going by the hours my dc are taught by non teaching staff) I thought.

Perhaps somebody could enlighten us to the exact reasons as laid out by the unions that teachers are striking for. They seem to differ from that discussed on the news and laid out by unions to teachers on MN.

pixiepotter Wed 02-Oct-13 08:49:45

Grennie These employment rights are imposed by the EU

pixiepotter Wed 02-Oct-13 08:53:28

I woyuldn't say builders were less skilled than teachers TBH .I could have a fair go at teaching a class , but I wouldn't have a clue how to build a house!

YouAreMyFavouriteWasteOfTime Wed 02-Oct-13 08:59:05

pixie i suspect your teaching might be as good as your house building grin

Retropear Wed 02-Oct-13 09:06:55

Oh and the tightening up by Ofsted,focus on progress getting rid of Outstanding for schools where teaching isn't has benefited my dc hugely.

Here's hoping it moves from the bottom quintile for everything.

We're starting to get more info,some of my children seem to be getting pushed more and parents are actually getting listened to instead of a blanket wall of arrogance.

Sorry but a lot of Gove's measures have and will benefit many kids hugely.I'd respect teachers and support them more if they focused on the crack pot measures such as free schools,the mad history curriculum etc.This frustrates many of my teaching friends too.

Retropear Wed 02-Oct-13 09:08:10

My Dp's best friend is a builder who has a building degree,he is very talented.

ChippingInNeedsSleepAndCoffee Wed 02-Oct-13 09:33:20

I am a bovine vet

Christ really?! After all that build up, that was the best she could come up with. Hilarious.

PurpleGirly Wed 02-Oct-13 10:04:18

Retro - you really dislike teachers don't you.

PurpleGirly Wed 02-Oct-13 10:07:53

Oh and your building friend who has a building degree has obviously done well for himself, but I am sure he would not manage a class of 35 top set Year 11 pupils wanting an A* in English, just as I could not build a house.

janey68 Wed 02-Oct-13 10:15:11

Purply- Retro said on this or one of the similar threads that she used to teach. I can't for the life of me understand why she's not still doing it as she thinks its such a fabulous deal and would love to be paying hundreds of pounds a month into a pension plan only to have the goalposts moved constantly. Not to mention the continual messing around with the schools, funding, exams and the curriculum (any one else got key stage 4 children who have just had the goal posts moved YET AGAIN wrt GCSE exams?)

Retropear Wed 02-Oct-13 10:17:24

Who said he could?hmm

Nope certainly don't hate teachers,I was one and mot of my friends still are.

I simply don't agree with this strike.

tethersend Wed 02-Oct-13 10:18:42

"Grennie These employment rights are imposed by the EU"

Don't be absurd, pixie; the Annual Holiday bill was introduced in 1936.

Retropear Wed 02-Oct-13 10:21:05

Time to move on,been in the school environment my whole life.

Wasn't aware one had to teach for life.

<whispers posters are allowed to disagree with the strike>

sashh Wed 02-Oct-13 10:26:18

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

Maggietess Wed 02-Oct-13 10:32:16

Wow I knew this debate would be difficult but suggesting another poster is a prostitute because she disagrees with your viewpoint is a new low for me. That's pretty uncalled for.

And for what it's worth I know plenty of professions who have "clients", accountants and lawyers being two of them.

Retropear Wed 02-Oct-13 10:37:11

My charity worker sister refers to clients.

I've been shocked re some of the bullying,nasty posts from teachers to some posters on threads.Had pms saying the same.

Thankfully I know from RL it isn't a true representation of all teachers(and their supporters).

Grennie Wed 02-Oct-13 10:41:53

Women who are prostituted do not deserve to be used as an insult.

sashh Wed 02-Oct-13 10:43:02

Greenie I am not using it as an insult.

janey68 Wed 02-Oct-13 10:50:03

There's disagreement but I haven't seen any bullying- apart from a few really nasty inaccurate threads started by people who seem to have too much time on their hands and a personal vendetta against the teaching profession

Retropear Wed 02-Oct-13 10:57:39

Vendetta - bollocks.Do you know the meaning of the word?

Posters are allowed to query/ disagree the teaching strike and what it stands for.MN is for mothers,to support,it has an education section and posters are free to ask for advice /support / question re their dc and education as much as they choose throughout the site.

The way anybody who disagrees with the strike or voices upset/asks for advice re their dc's education are getting accused of being teacher haters and running vendettas atm is quite frankly at best immature and at worst plain nasty.

Also the pack mentality,belittling,mocking,nasty posts to said ops and other posters was not pleasant to read.Going by pm I wasn't alone in thinking that.

janey68 Wed 02-Oct-13 11:00:11

You think the threads started by coco44 are seriously about debating important issues...?
Dream on ..

Retropear Wed 02-Oct-13 11:01:15

I actually had 1 pm from a poster too scared to post but thanking me for voicing what she feels.

Not MN at it's best to be frank.

Retropear Wed 02-Oct-13 11:03:51

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

AmyMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 02-Oct-13 12:10:49
chicaguapa Wed 02-Oct-13 14:24:25

<whispers posters are allowed to disagree with the strike>

Retro I'm not a teacher, but I do think some of your posts have been deliberately goading. Not what you're saying (because as you say you're entitled to an opinion and to disagree with the strike), but the tone and the brevity of some of your responses do make it seem that you are deliberately being provocative.

I think it has been established that the teaching profession has changed a lot over the years and it seems that even having been a teacher means that it's not completely possible to understand what it's like for teachers now.

For those who say they signed up for whatever working conditions, pay and pension they have that is worse than the teachers', fair enough. But the point is that teachers did not sign up for the working conditions, pay and pension that are being proposed, so they are fighting against them. Whether or not you agree with whether the proposed changes are reasonable is moot. You are not doing the job and therefore do not have the right to say whether they should be accepted by people doing the job.

There are a lot of double standards on this and other threads about this issue. Apparently it's not ok for your DC to miss a day off school but it's ok for their education system to be ballsed up and the teachers to sit around and do nothing about it? It just doesn't make any sense.confused

Retropear Wed 02-Oct-13 14:35:52

Sorry any poster has a right to say they don't agree with striking. Some posters may think they are justified,others don't.Considering how few teachers themselves actually voted to strike it's clear many in the profession don't agree with it,none of my friends do.They are perfectly entitled to say why without being accused of all manner of things such as goading.hmm

Posters also have a right not to be accused of views and beliefs they don't have.

At the moment any poster who disagrees with the strike and posts on threads saying so is accused of teacher bashing.confused

Oh and my dc haven't missed a day off school.hmm

janey68 Wed 02-Oct-13 15:11:12

Well if you can show evidence of 'stirring, belittling, mocking and bullying' in my posts, show it!
Thought not .

youretoastmildred Wed 02-Oct-13 15:13:40

We have to stop this infighting. Wouldn't it be nice if we could all have a better working life and good pay and pensions? If you are working your arse off in the private sector, have no job security or pension and earn £25000 there is no point gunning for the teacher working his / her arse off for £27000 with some pension. Everyone is at real risk of burn out, everyone is doing their best, everyone is facing the very real possibility of not making ends meet or getting some permanant long term healthy condition, and what then? That's what we're all scared of. None of us is secure. We should be, we work hard in a rich country. But we can't be, because security would impact the profits of those who use our work and own the properties we rent or buy from them.

I am tired on a personal level of some teachers - the ones who think everyone else has a cushy life because the office supplies teabags - whining. I am also tired of pathetic right-wing-propaganda fuelled whining about the public sector. Open your eys and see you are being used when you fall for this, just like when you parrot whines about the NHS and the BBC - this whining you are parrotting isn't going to lead to making them better, it is going to lead to them being closed down, and then everything will be a lot more shit.

I support the teachers' strike because I support all action by workers to protect a decent deal. I wish everyone was unionised and I wish everyone could do it. If teachers win, you aren't worse off. You should be inspired, not envious.

I work for a company with a US office and when I went back to work after mat. leave when my daughter was 11 months old, all the mothers in the US who I spoke to said something more or less obviously bitchy about my long maternity leave. Would they have liked it? Yes, that is why they were bitching at me, they were envious. Why? What purpose does that serve? By reproducing a negative attitude to long mat leave - an implication that I was spoilt, or lazy - they were playing into the hands of those who won't let it happen in the US.

when will we all bloody learn?

Retropear Wed 02-Oct-13 15:45:03

There is no money and we're living longer,that is the point.

If money was unlimited there wouldn't be an issue.

Retropear Wed 02-Oct-13 15:53:12

Janey read the thread"fart arsing about in fields sticking your hands up cows arses", capital letters,deleted posts,the group baiting,the derogatory comments......

youretoastmildred Wed 02-Oct-13 15:55:16

rubbish

there is money, this is propaganda

"The annual Sunday Times Rich List yields four very important conclusions for the governance of Britain (Report, Weekend, 28 April). It shows that the richest 1,000 persons, just 0.003% of the adult population, increased their wealth over the last three years by £155bn. That is enough for themselves alone to pay off the entire current UK budget deficit and still leave them with £30bn to spare.
Second, this mega-rich elite, containing many of the bankers and hedge fund and private equity operators who caused the financial crash in the first place, have not been made subject to any tax payback whatever commensurate to their gains. Some 77% of the budget deficit is being recouped by public expenditure cuts and benefit cuts, and only 23% is being repaid by tax increases. More than half of the tax increases is accounted for by the VAT rise which hits the poorest hardest. None of the tax increases is specifically aimed at the super-rich.
Third, despite the biggest slump for nearly a century, these 1,000 richest are now sitting on wealth greater even than at the height of the boom just before the crash. Their wealth now amounts to £414bn, equivalent to more than a third of Britain's entire GDP. They include 77 billionaires and 23 others, each possessing more than £750m.
The increase in wealth of this richest 1,000 has been £315bn over the last 15 years. If they were charged capital gains tax on this at the current 28% rate, it would yield £88bn, enough to pay off 70% of the entire deficit. It seems however that Osborne takes the notorious view of the New York heiress, Leonora Helmsley: "Only the little people pay taxes."
Michael Meacher MP"

youretoastmildred Wed 02-Oct-13 15:55:55

And a bit more

"Dear George Osborne

Today you said that welfare was 'hugely expensive'.

You said this either because you are ignorant or because you're lying. You must know that what is 'hugely expensive' at the moment is that the kind of economy you believe in has ground to a halt for reasons that are part of how it works. That's to say, the bankers speculated and lost. The UK economy relies on the banking sector because your party took a strategic decision 30 years ago to shift the GDP away from manufacture towards the financial services. So the bankers' crash has impacted on us all in two ways: we've bailed out the banks; the banks are in such trouble they are unwilling or unable to lend money to firms that could or would start expanding - so there is little or no growth, which means that the government revenues are not sufficient.

On top of this the superrich go on working the fiddles which enable them to deprive us of their due tax: they do it through tax avoidance, tax havens and finding non-dom status for themselves or their partners - business or husbands and wives. On top of this, they have just received a tax cut on their personal incomes, and get tax relief on their pensions.

So you say that welfare is 'hugely expensive'. Now, I wonder if you could calculate for us how 'hugely expensive' the rich are for us. How 'hugely expensive' has it been for us that the bankers could sell each other debt and speculate on foreign housing bubbles they knew nothing about? How hugely expensive per minute is it for us that the superrich avoid paying so much tax with dodges and tax relief?

You are doing all you can to separate the paying of taxes from the welfare that most people in society want and need. You are trying to do all you can to dismantle the means by which we care for each other. You think that you can leave the business of schools, health, social care and pensions in the hands of the kinds of people who speculated the system to a standstill.

This would be the most 'hugely expensive' gamble of all, because it gambles with people's lives and leaves people destitute and defenceless in the midst of your friends' phenomenal wealth.

More and more people can see the dangerous and nasty strategy you're working to. In the end, they will see that your policies and indeed, you yourself, are 'hugely expensive'.

from
Michael Rosen "

janey68 Wed 02-Oct-13 15:57:13

Oh you mean irony, on a thread which was started purely as goading by coco44- who then admitted that she was out of order! I see.
Anyway, this personal following me around and latching onto my posts is getting a teensy bit tiresome...

janey68 Wed 02-Oct-13 16:09:26

You'retoastmildred- round of applause for your posts.
You are absolutely right... Why should the fact that some people might appear to have a better deal, be a reason to begrudge and resent and bitch and complain. Because the chances are, their are other aspects of their situation which are tough.

Many teachers entered the profession not expecting the kind of salary they could command in other sectors, but with the trade off of a better pension deal. Then the goalposts get moved... Of course they are going to complain about their t and c

And you are spot on in your recognition that people living in different times and places will get different deals. No point bemoaning that fact- lets get on and work towards a better future for all.

I had 12 weeks maternity leave with my babies- that was what was on offer then. Did I bitch and moan that its not fair when 6 months, then 9 months and then a whole year were brought in? Of course not. Just because it didn't personally benefit me, doesn't mean I have a god given right to complain. I think it's great that times have moved on and mums (and dads) get better parental rights.

These threads just highlight the self serving nature of some individuals. It they aren't personally going to benefit from something, they sure as hell don't want anyone else to. And if someone is taking some last resort action which will affect their child or which they disagree with, they just get nasty about it.

I think probably 95% of working people deserve better than they're currently getting in the UK. We are a first world country fgs. It's outrageous that so many working people are suffering crap wages, pay freezes or cuts, changes to the pension that they pay hundreds into every month, and now expected to work til they drop too.
It's not something to be divided on- we should all be aiming for something better, surely ?

janey68 Wed 02-Oct-13 16:09:57

there

Oceansurf Wed 02-Oct-13 16:17:59

biscuit

Retropear Wed 02-Oct-13 16:52:20

"They just get nasty about it" there you go again.hmm

Posters not agreeing doesn't equal getting nasty.

There are also a lot of contradictions in your post.

janey68 Wed 02-Oct-13 17:15:36

Maybe just respond to the thread rather than constantly naming me as if on some personal vendetta (you see I do know what that means!)
This is about issues not a chance to stalk individuals around the boards

PurpleGirly Wed 02-Oct-13 17:17:25

Retro maybe your friends would strike - but wouldn't tell you about it! In my school only one person was against the strike, can't quite believe all of your teacher friends could be so happy with the changes ....

Retropear Wed 02-Oct-13 17:48:04

Ditto Janey

Purple it's not they're happy but some don't believe in striking and some just think it's moving the focus from the important stuff eg the sillier measures(some of which I agree with and some incidentally I don't).In the news you hear nothing re the educational decisions but only t&c so they're kind of right imvho.

Wasn't there only a tiny turn out anyway to vote on said strike anyway?

echt Wed 02-Oct-13 18:48:04

The unions can only strike about t and c.

They are not responsible for what the media chooses to report.

If a majority of the vote goes for the strike, then they strike. People who don't vote don't have more of a voice than those who do.

Retropear Wed 02-Oct-13 19:23:37

Nope but didn't only 27% or something vote?

indyandlara Wed 02-Oct-13 19:35:22

This will have moved on from first page but I don't have time to read all until later.

Yeah teaching is a piece of piss OP. Why don't you come and give it a go if it is so easy? Then you too can be underperforming, have loads of holidays, the kind of salary others can only dream about and that wonderful pension�� However, don't forget the copious unpaid overtime (I average 15 hrs unpaid a week. Holidays don't sound so great now do they?), the assaults and the never ending worry of how, in less than 12 months, you can reach those kids who have fallen through the cracks. And don't forget contributing (11%) to your pension which you will probably never claim fully as,hand on heart, how the hell are you still going to be doing this job at 67+?

It's not a race to the bottom.

chicaguapa Wed 02-Oct-13 19:52:33

And don't forget contributing (11%) to your pension which you will probably never claim fully as, hand on heart, how the hell are you still going to be doing this job at 67+?

To be fair, just because you take it early, it doesn't mean you won't claim it fully. The reduction is just to reflect the longer period it'll be paid for. So you would get 100% for an estimated 25 years or 75% for 32 years (for example). It's just spreading the pension you've paid for over a longer retirement. Retiring early is cost neutral, it's not supposed to be punitive (in terms of the what you put in and what you get out ratio).

The pension offer the unions have renegotiated isn't bad tbh and reflects what's happening in the pensions industry as a whole wrt the changes that have been made. I think it's a bit of a red herring and it's a shame that people don't understand it better. But I get that it comes under the pay & conditions umbrella and can't be separated out. Also the MP's pension scheme is significantly better and I think it's a bloody cheek! Not sure why people aren't telling them they're not allowed theirs!

As you were. grin

BoneyBackJefferson Wed 02-Oct-13 19:56:24

Retropear
"Nope but didn't only 27% or something vote?"

Didn't a similar number vote for the current government and gove?

How long is it since you taught retro?

A lot of old ex teachers that I know think the same way that you do.

BoneyBackJefferson Wed 02-Oct-13 19:57:25

the problem that I have with the pensions is that it goes against what the last government research says.

chicaguapa Thu 03-Oct-13 07:21:43

I don't know about that as I haven't seen the results of the latest valuation or even if it needs one being a state funded scheme. Do you have a link to something?

All I know is that the pensions industry is changing due to the change in life expectancy. It's not a 'the private sector all has DC schemes' comment at all (because they don't), but just noting that the reforms are a reflection of what's happening in the wider context of the industry, rather than an attack on public sector pensions. But I work in occupational DB schemes and understand the reforms to the pension scheme and the whole picture quite well. wink

That's not to say I support what the government is doing and the push back the government has had on the pension changes has made them improve on their original proposals. But I think the unions would be better representing their members if they concentrated more on a) ensuring the performance reviews were not an opportunity for HTs to reduce overheads when their budgets are being slashed each year and b)improving working conditions so the teachers don't all just up and leave one day and leave our state education in tatters.

echt Thu 03-Oct-13 08:03:09

Retropear Both NUT and NASUWT had a 40% turnout. The NUT had 90% of that turn out in favour of action. ALT was 83 % in favour of strike action.

2012 Police and Crime Commissioner electoral turnout = 14.9%
Local Election average turnout 2012 = 31.3%
By-elections 2012 average turnout = 21.9%
London Mayor 2012 = 37.4%

HTH.

DadOnIce Thu 03-Oct-13 09:48:54

Surely anybody who goes on strike for better pay and conditions could, if you wanted, be said to be "striking for themselves"? Where they are in a job serving the public it's surely rather more than that. Do we not want good, happy, motivated, inspiring teachers?

SuffolkNWhat Thu 03-Oct-13 10:25:55

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DadOnIce Thu 03-Oct-13 10:51:52

To be scrupulously fair, no government post-war has had a 50% majority - it's just the way our system works - and it's difficult to see what outcome was possible this time other than a hung parliament. But that's old news. Agree that union members need to exercise their right to vote. Some teachers have chosen not to strike, which is up to them.

Icantseeit Thu 03-Oct-13 12:39:01

I don't think teaching is a particularly difficult or skilled job.

Coco44 - that is a very ignorant statement to make. An appalling attitude, and a real insult to the majority of teachers working their socks off to give your children (if you have any) the best start in life!

slug Thu 03-Oct-13 13:28:42

I don't think teaching is a particularly difficult or skilled job

<<snort>> I used to get that particular comment a lot from the newly redundant bankers I used to mentor through their first teaching placement. None of them lasted the course because, in the main, it was too damn difficult and required too much effort for the (in their eyes) pittance of a pay.

youretoastmildred Thu 03-Oct-13 14:33:36

It is ridiculous that people can seriously say that.

1. On mn we hear all the time about how tiring and stressful it is to look after your children in Improving ways (anyone can put the TV on or let them slope off with a tablet, but everyone gets tired organising Improving activities). that is for about 2 or 3 children.

2. It is a truth universally acknowledged that big presentations, where you have to present complex material to a not-necessarily-engaged audience are tricky. Many people have to do these sometimes, and have lots of time to prepare for them.

Now take No. 1 + No. 2 + ALL THE TIME and = a whole world of pain

I don't exactly like teachers. But any idiot can see this.

handcream Thu 03-Oct-13 14:51:01

I dont believe teachers should strike. On one thread I was flaming (presumably because I didnt agree with the majority of the posters who I strongly suspect were teachers!)

I was asked what I knew about it. My DM was a teacher for 40 years. She still does 2 days as a volunteer at her old school. I have two DS's in full time education. But I was told 'no, I still dont know the real story'!

I suspect the only right answer was that I was a teacher myself and I agreed with everything everyone else was saying!

slug Thu 03-Oct-13 15:21:07

It's the swan syndrome. Everyone knows what teachers do, they've all been in classrooms at one point in their lives. It looks simple enough on the surface. What you don't see is the frantic paddling going on beneath the water and the meticulous engineering of time and resources that makes it look so effortless. The same thing happens with nurses. How often do you hear people complaining that they seem to spend their whole time at the nurses station instead of doing the physical work without realising that that is where the endless paperwork and admin is being done?

handcream Thu 03-Oct-13 15:33:55

Slug - not all teachers are like this tbh. We all know the bad teachers, the ones who get pay rises just for being in a profession for x number of years. That definitely should change and I know is. Some teachers dont want this. Wonder why?

My DS is at a private school. He is doing his A levels. He has two teachers for each subject. He knows the bad ones. One subject he wanted to do had a terrible teacher and having met him I can see why but he trudges on, luckily my DS didnt get him. If he had I would have stepped in.

Lots of us work hard. Some go for the money (and pay taxes accordingly), some go for a job they love even though it doesnt pay that well, some choose not to work at all and look to others to provide for them. There are just too many occuptions now wanting to be seen as exceptions. They want to retire early (on Final Salary Schemes) because they are different.

Well, their not.

chicaguapa Thu 03-Oct-13 15:49:47

Well, look on the bright side, if you're making it look easy, you're obviously doing it very well. flowers

In terms of striking, the idea is that it inconveniences parents and that's supposed to motivate them to look at the reasons why and put pressure on the government to support their DC's state education. Instead, the parents (not all) just start whining, the precise thing they're complaining about the teachers doing. hmm

The reason why the majority of the parents don't look to the government to resolve this is because the government spends £1,000s of our money on spin telling us that it's the teachers' fault, not theirs! And the gullible and uneducated among us don't even question it! confused

When the BA cabin crew went on strike and ruined loads of people's holidays, I thought it made BA look like a poor employer and caring more about their company than the service it was providing. So why aren't people looking at the government and asking:

What kind of way is this to manage our education system?
You were elected so why aren't you doing a better job?
Why are our DC missing a day of school?
Why didn't you do everything in your power to avoid a strike?

Instead, they just resort to the easy option and slag off the workers.

handcream Thu 03-Oct-13 16:08:19

You sound like a communist leader talking about the big bad corporations ripping off their workers...

BA cabin crew are extremely well paid for what they actually do, the role has changed considerably as is much much less glam than it was. I thought they were being greedy tbh.

For most people now flying is a means to an end, hence the rise of the low cost airlines. Do I care who I fly with on a short haul flight, not really. Would I pay a premium to fly BA because their crew are paid considerably more than say Easy Jet. No I wouldnt and I expect most on this thread agree.

clam Thu 03-Oct-13 17:29:59

handcream, with all due respect, you don't know the real story. My mother was a teacher for 40 years too. Her job was a million miles from what I do. In fact, she listens to what I do with incredulity. In fact, my own job today is very different from how it was even when I started out 27 years ago. Much, MUCH harder work, and not easy to continue to make my lessons as fun and child-centred as we were allowed to then. And as I work in the same area as I always have done, with similar catchment, I can tell you that the bar for behaviour has dramatically lowered in that time, so managing that effectively is way more challenging than it ever was.
And having children at school nowadays doesn't equip you to know the fine detail if what goes on, either although you wouldn't know it reading threads on here.

handcream Thu 03-Oct-13 17:32:29

Here we go again, as I am NOT a teacher I cannot possible know what it is like... If I was a teacher I guess you presume that I would feel like yo.u. Job done. We all agree with each other. Well I dont agree with teachers striking for their own ends. I really dont.

Retropear Thu 03-Oct-13 17:42:21

Erm teaching standards 40 years ago were hardly the glory days,sorry but you're talking about the 70s when standards were shite. My mother was also teaching back then and although far from perfect feels standards are better now.

janey68 Thu 03-Oct-13 17:43:58

If you constantly erode the rights of a professional body, move the goalposts, make their job more difficult and fail to make Performance related pay proposals reasonable, then you will drive excellence out . Whatever the profession happens to be .

That's why I support the strike and why I don't see it as teachers doing it for themselves; they are doing it for the good of our children and the children of the future. Being a teacher is a hugely important role and I for one want a profession which is treated decently.

handcream Thu 03-Oct-13 17:47:04

Err - no she wasnt teaching 40 years ago. She has retired but still does two days at her old school so not out of touch at all

clam Thu 03-Oct-13 17:47:36

"Here we go again, as I am NOT a teacher I cannot possible know what it is like"
Yes, that's exactly it! You can't, I'm afraid. In the same way that I don't know what it's like being a doctor, despite having been in hospital a few times in my life and my best friend being one. I have a bit of insider information from her, but would never presume to know much more. If she were ever to strike, I would have faith in her and her profession that things must be pretty bloody bad.

And if you read any of these threads properly, you'd know that the strike is NOT just for "their own ends." There is massive concern for the action Gove is taking that will affect YOUR children's education for the worse.

Retropear Thu 03-Oct-13 17:53:56

Some of us are speaking as parents now and as I said some of the new measures however unpopular have benefited a lot of children.Our children.Some won't and are barking but I think the unions are being sneaky.Listing official reasons but apparently striking for others.confusedSaying education needs to be saved,every new policy is wrong.Be more specific,I don't agree that every decision is wrong(let's face it there has been an avalanche of new measures) so plenty to pick through.

I don't agree with chucking the baby out with the bath water.Focus on the shite educational policies and I'd support the strike if I agreed on those in particular.

Posters are making valid points re the reasons against striking.

The whole pension system for everybody is changing,it has to.Performance related pay is needed imvho and things like PPA time tends to get abused imvho in some schools.

We haven't had a comprehensive official union list on here.

The fact is posters don't have to agree to strikes if we don't agree with the reasons listed and I don't.Sorry.

Retropear Thu 03-Oct-13 17:55:33

The goalposts need to be moved in some schools.

Just because some have dc in schools where everything is perfect or are teaching in a perfect school why should you begrudge improvements for others?

Retropear Thu 03-Oct-13 17:59:48

My kids are in the middle of everything.Will have missed all the new phonic teaching,maths expectations,standards/ expectations in everything are going to be higher so chances are they'll end up with lower exam grades a few years down the line.

Do I begrudge the children who will benefit from those further down the line?No.

Fairenuff Thu 03-Oct-13 18:26:08

Here we go again, as I am NOT a teacher I cannot possible know what it is like

Well, yes, of course. How can you possibly know? What do you know about safe-guarding, for example, or APPs? Those would be some of the very basic day to day aspects of teaching and there are many, many more.

Retropear Thu 03-Oct-13 18:41:19

So anybody without a medical degree isn't free to have an opinion on the NHS?

I cuts both ways.

Surely those not in teaching shouldn't comment either way if we're going by that rather narrow view.

clam Thu 03-Oct-13 18:52:00

I didn't say an opinion wasn't allowed about the NHS in general. The point was about knowing the intricate day-to-day stresses of someone else's job.

I wouldn't presume to know about anyone else's job other than something I've directly experienced. But the whole world and his wife seems to think that teaching's fair game, because they once went to school. hmm

Retropear Thu 03-Oct-13 18:55:39

So then really both sides shouldn't comment unless you think only those with positive views should be allowed to post.

handcream Thu 03-Oct-13 19:42:20

Fgs - do you realise how silly this is sounding. You can comment on teachers only if you are one and agree with me!

clam Thu 03-Oct-13 20:32:52

What? Who said that?

You said you knew all about teaching because your mother was one. I said that, no, that didn't mean you knew everything about it - meaning the job.
I'm well aware that many people have opinions about the ethics of striking. That's natural. Whether you can fully comprehend the frustrations and pressures of the teaching job if you've never done it, is another matter entirely. Which was my only point.

echt Thu 03-Oct-13 20:35:24

* handcream* and retropear, no-one has said you must agree with them, or that you shouldn't post your views, but you will be called on the quality/relevance of your arguments and observations.

clam is quite right to point out that commenting on certain aspects of teaching is compromised if you've not done it yourself.

Retropear Thu 03-Oct-13 20:55:58

Yes but the vociferous posts from posters who have never set foot in a classroom in a teaching capacity commenting on major teaching issues are equally compromised.

Retropear Thu 03-Oct-13 20:59:46

There are such posts on both sides of the fence,you don't seem to have a problem with those arguing in your favour.

We all have different things to bring to the party,seems to me it's obvious there will be all sorts of differing views.

handcream Thu 03-Oct-13 21:06:35

Did I ever say I knew all about teaching? What I do have is a close family member still in the profession and two children in full time education. Are you saying anyone who isnt a teacher cannot possibly comment on what is going on!

handcream Thu 03-Oct-13 21:08:46

Maybe I could say then that teachers really dont understand what its like to have 4 weeks holiday, they have considerably more so they cannot possibly understand the restrictions we are under when they strike, having to take a day off from our leave entitlement and such like...

chicaguapa Thu 03-Oct-13 21:08:50

DH is a teacher. That qualifies me to have enough understanding of what their job actually entails to support them. I am not a teacher so that doesn't qualify me to pretend to have sufficient understanding to criticise them.

I see that DH sits working every night until after 10pm. But I don't know what it's like to do that after a whole day's teaching. Jeez I'm exhausted enough after helping out on a school trip!

handcream Thu 03-Oct-13 21:10:22

Doesnt count chicagupa unless of course you are in favour of some of the views on here.

You arent a REAL teacher....

chicaguapa Thu 03-Oct-13 21:17:33

so they cannot possibly understand the restrictions we are under when they strike, having to take a day off from our leave entitlement and such like

That could be a fair point but it would only apply to those that went straight into teaching.

But if the strike's your beef, what do you think they should do, if they feel that the undermining of the profession will have a detrimental effect on your DC's education?

Do they have a responsibility to fight for their profession or do they sit by and watch it being pulled apart by someone whose head's stuck so far up his own arse he can't hear what people are saying to him?

And then shrug their shoulders and go and get another job? Would that be more less self-serving than striking? confused

echt Thu 03-Oct-13 21:19:11

Yes, handcream, you are right to say that teachers don't know what it's like to take time off from annual leave to cover for a strike.

Doesn't mean they shouldn't strike though.

junkfoodaddict Thu 03-Oct-13 21:23:40

My DH is paid £20,000 moe than me but has no more qualifications than me.
His pension is bigger than mine (predicted) and his lump sum is three times more than mine too.
He get BUPA with his job - I don't. I get the NHS like everyone else (granted, I and DS so benefit from this).
He works LESS hours AT work than me and doesn't bring work home - I do.
He gets a 5% pay increase EVERY year - I've had a 1% but my pension payment is increasing so technically I don't get it.
He goes up the pay spine - I don't. (HT always makes sure staff never get it!)
He gets a 25% bonus - I don't get a bonus - ever.

My school holidays are spent catching up with assessments, reading journals and updating knowledge and skills, resource finding and also catching up with sleep and recharging my batteries.

Oh, almost forgot school holidays are spent catching up with my toddler and finding out what is new in his life - probably mummy!

So, I ask you OP the question:
Is the private sector better than the teaching sector?

My answer is "depends on which industry you look at"

Grennie Thu 03-Oct-13 21:27:41

Teachers have it better than some private sector jobs, and worse than others. Everyone should be in a union and fight for better terms and conditions.

clam Thu 03-Oct-13 21:28:01

And of course, there are many teachers who weren't on strike this week, who had their own children at schools which were closed. They were, don't forget, unable to take leave during term-time.

soverylucky Thu 03-Oct-13 21:34:09

Greenie has it spot on!

soverylucky Thu 03-Oct-13 21:34:23

sorry - grennie

junkfoodaddict Thu 03-Oct-13 21:35:04

Oh and I haven't read all 400+ posts. I haven't the time I'm afraid. Just stopped for a break in the marking I am currently doing. grin

As for criticising teachers - go for it! Everyone criticises everyone and everyone's job when their actions and their job interferes with our own lives and stops us from getting on with what we need to/want to.

Doesn't mean that we're right though.

I won't try and stop anyone from having an opinion.

I for one hate it when people 'blame systems' for people slipping through the net with social services, the NHS, banks etc, etc and can give a right mouthful.

Doesn't mean I am right though or that I am in full posession of the facts. Just means that based on the knowledge I hold, I have formed an opinion.

One thing I will say (diverting) - educational standards HAVE improved in some areas of the curriculum but behaviour has deteriorated, stress amongst even our youngest children has increased - all due to the pressures and interference from governments' target driven force.

It's more than just pay and pensions - it's about childrens' rights to maintain their childhood and to enjoy an education (especially Primary) that is creative, free and moulded by them.

soverylucky Thu 03-Oct-13 21:39:02

I left this thread for a while and have come back to it now.
I think that there will be people who are against the strike. I work with teachers who chose not to strike and disagree with it. Not all teachers voted for the strike. However, the op is about how teaching compares to the private sector - not whether the teachers should be striking or not. I very much agree with the statement that unless you have done a job then you can't possible understand what it is like. I teach in a secondary school but spent some time in a primary as a volunteer when my youngest was in reception. I couldn't believe the job the teacher had. It was totally different to what I thought it would be like and very different to my role. Even I as a fellow teacher did not understand what it was like to be in a primary school.
By all means have an opinion of the rights of workers to strike and make observations on those you personally know who teach. To assume though that you understand the realities of being a teacher in 2013 without actually being one is not fair.

Arisbottle Thu 03-Oct-13 23:21:52

But sovery it works the other way, just as many people do not know what teaching is like, many teachers do not know what other jobs are like so we cannot make valid comparisons across jobs.

PurpleGirly Thu 03-Oct-13 23:40:46

But Arisbottle no one is on here commenting on other jobs now ... This thread is all about teacher bashing!

Hand cream did I imagine it or did you post that DC go to private school?

niceguy2 Fri 04-Oct-13 00:17:04

I've just seen this thread, haven't read all the posts I confess.

The exam question is:

"Are teachers better off than those in the private sector?"

I'm going to assume here that OP means in terms of renumeration because I don't think anyone would suggest that teachers get it easier workload wise or get less holidays.

So are teacher's better off financially than those in the private sector?

Clearly teachers are not better off financially than every person in the private sector. I doubt teacher's get paid more than say....Roman Abromovich or Wayne Rooney but they get paid more than Joe, the toilet cleaner. So I think all we can reasonably do is look at averages.

So are teachers on average better off financially than those in the private sector?

Well firstly teachers are public sector workers and on average they are better paid by 7-8% (Source: Guardian)

But teachers are such a big group it's really unfair to lump them in with all public sector workers.

According to 'This is Money'. The average secondary teacher earns around £35k with primary teacher's earning £32k. Data was drawn from HMRC data (Source: This is Money)

Now the average salary in the private sector is around £26-27k so on paper yes, teachers are definitely better off than your average private sector worker.

BUT

BUT

Teacher's are highly educated and skilled people. The private sector is a huge mix. Therefore we wouldn't be comparing apples with apples although I grant you that to many people they will consider teachers as very well off if they're earning minimum wage. It's all relative isn't it. If we compared teachers with other degree level graduates the gap would narrow considerably.

But the answer to the exam question is yes they are but the question was overly simplistic.

echt Fri 04-Oct-13 01:07:37

That data was interesting and your point about comparing apples with apples is a good one.

An aspect of the teacher's average pay is what happens when the pay for an HT, called a teacher, is part of that average. An HT does not do the same work that the public would think of as being a teacher. It would be interesting to see the average pay for a classroom teacher.

The top end for a secondary is 31,552, so I imagine the higher earning SMT/HT has been put in the mix.

Arisbottle Fri 04-Oct-13 01:48:18

I am sure that top end - post threshold is higher than 31,552

echt Fri 04-Oct-13 02:17:34

Not everyone gets the threshhold, nor is everyone a post holder. The rate for London, bands A and B, also skew the figures. That's why it would be interesting to know what went into the figure of 35K.

I've looked at the gov. website and for main grade they say 31,868 at the top end, with a start at 21,804.

Arisbottle Fri 04-Oct-13 02:37:43

But every teacher can go through threshold even without a responsibility point.

echt Fri 04-Oct-13 06:32:43

Yes, of course they can, doesn't mean they do, presumably some get knocked back.

englishteacher78 Fri 04-Oct-13 06:38:07

I've known people not go through. Ime they didn't prepare for the process properly. But then I always over prepare for things.

echt Fri 04-Oct-13 08:08:09

Here's a question, are the threshhold payments a one-off for that year, or are they consolidated, i.e. you have them forever?

mizu Fri 04-Oct-13 08:13:50

Haven't read the whole thread but hear hear junkfoodaddict

Same situation but swap husband for sister.

She earns more than i do in the private sector, never takes work home and gets regular pay increases (two this year of 5%... 5%!!!!!) - the last one I had was in 2007, oh apart from the 0.7% last year which got swallowed by my pension contributions.

I have been a language teacher for 18 years and my full time salary, if I worked full time would be £26,968. FE sector so may be more if i worked in a school.

Sis gets an hour lunch break every day. As a teacher working in a college you are lucky if you can get to the toilet, no lunch breaks here.

I love my job and never went into it for the money. Threads that claim we have it better than those in the private sector need to spend a few weeks teaching me thinks.

Fragglewump Fri 04-Oct-13 08:34:33

I've worked in both sectors and in the private sector I earnt double my teaching salary, had a company car, pension, private health scheme etc. I rarely had to worry about work or plan/prepare once I had left the office and holidays were real holidays. I also did not face attack and hostility from customers like I do from parents. But I chose to do something that fulfills and challenges me more. It is 100% more demanding and exhausting than any other job I've done so much so that if I work full time it is totally overwhelming. So I work in school 3 days a week (and at home 1.5 days a week). I'm proud of myself because I make a difference to children. I'm learning not to be bothered by people who criticise and attack me. I hope that all of the haters on here have brilliant teachers for their own children.

niceguy2 Fri 04-Oct-13 09:24:15

I don't think most reasonable people are attacking and hating teachers because they think teachers have an easy peasy job.

But on this occasion I think the majority of public do not support the teacher's strike because the main issue seems to be their pensions. A pension that is incredibly generous when compared to the rest of the UK, will continue to be very generous, is unaffordable by the govt and a pension that the vast majority of us can only dream of.

So your average man in the street who is also working damn hard to make ends meet, hasn't seen a payrise for years and being told his pension is going to be so shit that he's likely to starve isn't feeling very sympathetic towards teachers.

Banging on about how hard teacher's work isn't going to garner much traction since we all think we work hard. No-one goes to work and comes home and thinks "Hey...what a piece of piss".

And it's hard to imagine why teachers should be a special exception case given that other public sector staff like police, firemen, nurses even MP's have all had to stomach significant pension changes.

Fragglewump Fri 04-Oct-13 09:33:43

I think that teachers pensions have already been significantly changed have they not? I was under the impression that in the glory days a teaching pension was indeed fantastic but the terms have changed several times and the most recently qualified teachers certainly have the crappest pensions. Disclaimer: I am not a pensions expert I fact I am not even a pensions amateur!

GangstersLoveToDance Fri 04-Oct-13 09:44:12

I have no intention of trailing through all 18 pages, so I will ask for something to be repeated.

Can someone explain to me factually why teachers are striking? IS it mainly the pensions? And if so, what are the changes?

I find it remarkably difficult to locate any solid information about why this is even happening.

Retropear Fri 04-Oct-13 09:54:35

Gangster I've asked 3 times for the official Union reasons and got nowhere.

Apparently officially t&c( exact details not listed on here despite asking) but actually this isn't the case it's to save education(again exact details not listed on here).hmm

chicaguapa Fri 04-Oct-13 09:58:45

Info here on why teachers are striking. There are 2 posters summarising the reasons, but in a nutshell:

Conditions - too much paperwork and red tape reducing ability to actually teach
Pay - resistance to move to performance pay due to uncertainty that HTs with increasing budget restraints will be fair and the concern that performance is related to results and that no-one will want to teach the classes that have behaviour issues or lack of ability to improve
Pensions Move from a final salary pension to career average, increase in contributions and extension of retirement age

Whether or not you agree with the changes is moot. These are the t&cs that teachers signed on joining the profession and they have to be consulted before they are changed. Basic employment law.

chicaguapa Fri 04-Oct-13 10:06:23

I've asked 3 times for the official Union reasons and got nowhere

You could have just gone to the union websites. Any newspaper article on it will give you their names; NUT and NASUWT.

More info here <--- makes it easy for the less motivated

Retropear Fri 04-Oct-13 10:10:02

The NUT site is extremely vague.

Re pensions no sympathy.

Re performance pay what actually has been mooted?Is performance going to be judged on progress?How does threshold fit in with all this?Think I have a couple of threshold points actually so interested to know.Surely the Unions aren't actually still in favour of pay increase based on the number of years you've been teaching regardless of performance.

Re paperwork - what exactly?

GangstersLoveToDance Fri 04-Oct-13 10:12:32

Agree that the NUT site is vague. I have looked at it and I still can't find the 'actual' reasons for strike.

Lots of general propaganda-type messages of 'let's all stand together' and 'let's improve education/working practices/outlook' - but no actual clear information.

Retropear Fri 04-Oct-13 10:14:00

NAS far better.

Sorry not a lot of sympathy re inspection and accountability either as my dc have benefited from it.

Not a lot of sympathy re pay freezes everybody I know has had them for far longer.

GangstersLoveToDance Fri 04-Oct-13 10:15:07

Plenty of people in my organisation have just been moved from their final salary scheme to a defined contribution scheme. No agreement was needed from them.

I can assure you that my employer would NOT breach employment law. So your 'fact' about T&Cs of employment not being able to change is incorrect. It can and does happen.

GangstersLoveToDance Fri 04-Oct-13 10:16:20

What retropear said.

chicaguapa Fri 04-Oct-13 10:20:56

So you've said what you have no sympathy for, but are there any bits that you do?

Do you genuinely feel that the profession should just shut up and put up? And that schools won't suffer? confused

Or do you genuinely feel that Gove is 'improving standards' with his reforms?

chicaguapa Fri 04-Oct-13 10:23:36

I can assure you that my employer would NOT breach employment law. So your 'fact' about T&Cs of employment not being able to change is incorrect. It can and does happen

It also happens where T&Cs can't be changed without consultation. FACT. It happened where I work when proposals to close the FS scheme were put forward and the unions threatened to strike. So they kept it open. This is a private sector company.

Retropear Fri 04-Oct-13 10:29:07

7&8 on NAS

10 too(but it takes both sides and I think the unions need a reality check).

I also think free schools,academies(although Union behaviour makes me see why Gove wants to acadamise everything in sight)and some of the new curriculum are bonkers but you say Unions aren't allowed to campaign in any way against them.hmm

Retropear Fri 04-Oct-13 10:37:07

Not happy with education cuts(but unless Unions except reality there will need to be more)or a longer school day/less holidays.All of these would be detrimental for children imvho.

Free schools hack me off as a masseeeeeve waste of money,letting mc parents such as Toby Young play schools in areas they aren't needed whilst children in other areas have no place.

I would have supported any strike that focused on the above(as would many parents) but this didn't.

chicaguapa Fri 04-Oct-13 10:51:20

Maybe some of these things you've listed do come under 'conditions', I'm not sure though.

But I think that they have all contributed to an overall feeling of the profession being under attack and teachers are more likely to want to stand up for any changes in their T&Cs because they mistrust the government's intentions.

That's how I read it anyway.

Retropear Fri 04-Oct-13 10:56:31

Everywhere is under attack because there is a massive deficit to pay back.

chicaguapa Fri 04-Oct-13 11:05:58

But 'free schools' hasn't reduced the deficit, but has reduced the need to be a qualified teacher (in those schools).

Are you saying then that the new pay reforms might not lead to 'rewarding good teachers' after all but are in fact a way of reducing school budgets to help pay off the deficit? So will in effect lead to a pay reduction for teachers?

I actually agree with you over the pensions issue to an extent as that's my field and I see what's happening in the pensions industry as a whole. But I think for anyone to focus on this is a red herring as there are bigger issues they're standing up for too. And they have made some progress on this front anyway and I don't think they'll make any more ground there.

niceguy2 Fri 04-Oct-13 13:02:48

As per chic's post, the reasons officially are:

Conditions, pay & pensions.

Let's take conditions first of all. Really? I've heard this for over a decade now. Why strike now? I think most of the public believe this is simply a smokescreen for the other two reasons. I like many suspect if the government moved on the other two reasons that teachers would happily stop strike action and return to work.

So what about pay? Teacher's dislike the idea of being rewarded for good performance and they fear that their boss (ie. the head) will set their targets unfairly.

Sorry but that's pretty much how the rest of industry works. I get targets to meet. My boss gets his targets from his boss. There are elements of my objectives I hate and I also have grave concerns about the way our team are measured. Frankly it seems like another issue that the rest of society already put up with and teacher's are resisting. There probably will be some teachers with unrealistic targets, most will probably be fair. Some will be too easy. Such is life. It doesn't make the entire principle unfair. In short parents want high performing teachers and the way it comes across is that teachers don't want to be held accountable for their performance.

So lastly pension. Again this is something that the rest of society have already had to stomach. I do have a certain amount of sympathy that the pension you signed up for in good faith is changing for the worse. But ultimately the government is skint and cannot afford the status quo. To put it another way. Let's say it was a private company. It promised pension x to it's employees during the good times when money was plentiful. Now it's making a loss. It can't pay that pension anymore. What's the point in going on strike? What will it change? It simply can't pay money it doesn't have!

Sadly I think it's mainly the latter as to why teacher's are really striking. Go for it. Get it out of your system. Vent your spleen, show your anger then get back to work please. Our kids deserve better than to be saddled with crippling debts in the future to pay unaffordable pensions promised now.

BoneyBackJefferson Fri 04-Oct-13 16:25:15

niceguy2
so a pension that was deemed affordable when last checked is going to be responsible for our "children saddled with crippling debts"?

niceguy2 Fri 04-Oct-13 17:29:11

Affordable is such a relative word isn't it?

The government pay the equivalent of 14% of a teacher's gross salary into the pension fund. The teacher pays around 7-9%. So in effect the vast majority of the fund relies upon government money. (Let's ignore the fact that teacher's salary is also government money for now.)

I don't know if you've been reading the news recently but the government is rather skint at the moment. In fact not only is it skint, it's borrowing money like a drowning man trying to grab a lifevest.

So tell me how a pension can be deemed 'affordable' when it's relying on massive contributions from an entity that has no money?

I'm not trying to say that teacher's pensions alone is responsible for saddling our kids with debt. Clearly the government today and of yesteryear are all responsible. But we do need to tackle the pension timebomb and teacher's need to play their part in this if we don't want to sell our kids short.

handcream Fri 04-Oct-13 17:46:12

I had a final salary pension. I now have career average. Its fair tbh because it stops people getting large pay rises at the end and the pension being based on a larger salary. I think with us all living longer that a career average IS better. I could live until my 90's.

There are some terrible teachers out there. Its difficult to get rid of a bad teacher. Why should these crap teachers automatically get a pay rise just for being in place for longer.

Teachers need to get into the real world and recognise they are no different than the rest of us who are also working longer hours with stacks of paperwork.

chicaguapa Fri 04-Oct-13 18:31:47

But we do need to tackle the pension timebomb and teacher's need to play their part in this if we don't want to sell our kids short.

Tbh the real pensions time bomb is that the vast majority of this generation will not have enough money to live on in retirement. So whichever way you look at it, our kids' tax will be funding someone anyway.

Either it's the public sector pensions now or the impovershished private sector with their crap DC pensions and insufficient retirement income.

Even as a private sector worker, I would question why we should be more deserving of state money in the form of benefits than the public sector who are providing a service of which the private sector is benefitting.

My personal view is that most of these debates come down to ideology and whether you value public services and if they are deserving of state money. Your own comment that teachers' own contributions is state money too makes your views clear on that front. Obviously the fact that their work their arses off for their salary still doesn't make it their own money.

chicaguapa Fri 04-Oct-13 18:36:23

To clarify, I mean benefits that the private sector will ultimately need to support their meagre retirement income. Because unless we intend to be stepping over homeless people in the streets, there's going to have to be a whole new tier of benefits for these people. Because they simply won't have enough money to live on.

Grennie Fri 04-Oct-13 18:36:27

Yes I think there are going to be a lot of very poor pensioners in the future. Those inheriting expensive houses will be okay. Those who don't inherit will largely be up shit creek.

Retropear Fri 04-Oct-13 18:37:23

In an ideal world we'd all be paying less tax so we can put more into our own pensions.

I personally would rather do this than pay more tax to fund a few in upper class pensions the rest can only dream of whilst cutting teaching jobs so we have fewer on pay we can't afford to maintain.

Family households have to cut their cloth,the gov are no different.

Grennie Fri 04-Oct-13 18:39:17

Unless you start young, you have to put a lot of money in every month to get anything much of a pension. Most people can't afford that - even with tax cuts

Retropear Fri 04-Oct-13 18:42:41

Well the money fairy aint going to wave it's wand so that is what people will have to do.

ilovesooty Fri 04-Oct-13 19:27:08

* Its difficult to get rid of a bad teacher. Why should these crap teachers automatically get a pay rise just for being in place for longer*

Automatic progression has gone now. And it's possible to get rid of teachers HTs want out in weeks as from last month.

handcream Fri 04-Oct-13 19:43:55

So last month it was easier to get bad teachers out. Previously it was impossible. What a great time a bad teacher must have had, yearly pay rises, no real chance of being fired and more money for just turning up.

soverylucky Fri 04-Oct-13 19:45:40

Teachers are accountable. First we have the Ofsted reports that any person can access and read about the performance in that school. Then there are exam results and league tables. On an individual basis most schools will send home reports/level statements regularly. Parents can easily see whether their children are making progress with a particular teacher or not. This can be compared to national averages. An individual teacher will also have their results scrutinised by their line manager or head. Most PM targets will involve lesson observation and the vast majority of schools also have their own internal inspection system in place.

ilovesooty Fri 04-Oct-13 19:50:14

Previously it was impossible

No it wasn't.

And not all the teachers being forced out were bad teachers.

handcream Fri 04-Oct-13 19:52:07

I am interested now. How many teachers over say the last 20 years were fired because they werent up to the job?

Retropear Fri 04-Oct-13 19:52:28

Not if you're not given those levels,aren't told what good progress should be,aren't given info and have a weak head.

soverylucky Fri 04-Oct-13 19:54:27

Any parent can contact a school and ask for that information. If the school failed to provide it I would wonder what my children were doing at such a school and would search for an alternative.

Retropear Fri 04-Oct-13 19:54:35

We've just visited a school where a head has just got rid of half a department after years of trying.

That is years of kids being let down.

Retropear Fri 04-Oct-13 19:58:48

Sovery well as many schools are graded Outstanding or Good one would kind of presume the progress and teaching would be.

It is very hard and not very pleasant to get info out of a school if they don't want to give it.

And as for moving kids that isn't easy either.hmm

handcream Fri 04-Oct-13 19:59:15

Is this figure correct?
'17 duff teachers axed in 10 years '

I dont mean for example teachers that have been fired for say dating their pupils or for fighting. I had a collegue who hit one of our customers (who was a horrible, bullying bastard) and he was fired immediately even though the guy had pushed him just too far

handcream Fri 04-Oct-13 20:00:58

That's the worrying thing. It is difficult to fire a bad teacher. It shouldnt be but is. No wonder they want to keep their T&C's!

ilovesooty Fri 04-Oct-13 20:06:42

Those are only the ones struck off by the GTC. Of course the real number of teachers leaving due to competency proceedings is higher than that.

BoneyBackJefferson Fri 04-Oct-13 20:24:35

"niceguy2*

"So tell me how a pension can be deemed 'affordable' when it's relying on massive contributions from an entity that has no money?"
when you tie the above ^^ with
"(Let's ignore the fact that teacher's salary is also government money for now.)"
it actually means that the government is spending money that is from the teachers pension fund. So I for one will not "ignore the fact"

BoneyBackJefferson Fri 04-Oct-13 20:33:40

handcream
"That's the worrying thing. It is difficult to fire a bad teacher."

Its no more difficult than in the "real world". In order to fire anyone you have to make a case to do so and as with all jobs you have to prove that you have tried everything within reason to improve that persons skills or they will sue the company for wrongful dismissal.

(unless its gross misconduct but you still have to prove that they have done it)

chicaguapa Fri 04-Oct-13 20:51:04

So when all these bad teachers have been easily sacked, where are the new teachers coming from? Seeing as the profession has such a bad image and poor attrition?

Certainly the ones coming in wringing their hands with anticipation at the short days and long holidays aren't going to stick it out for long. Agreed get rid of the dead wood and the water treaders, but you then need to make it an attractive profession to attract the good teachers in and keep them.

Is it not the responsibility of the people in charge of state education to do that too?

echt Fri 04-Oct-13 21:26:22

Hard to see why handcream is going on about it being difficult to sack a bad teacher when it is, as of 1st September, far easier. As ilovesooty pointed out.

I've seen teachers get the chop, it's a very detailed procedure, and so it should be; the same procedures protects someone who is being picked on. I've also seen incompetent management who mishandled capability, then whinged when the unions came in to support a teacher who had been treated unjustly. This then becomes "unions supporting crap teachers" instead of "unions supporting just and legal treatment of union members".

It boils my piss when I see managers who won't manage people. It IS hard, but that's what they're paid to do. Well, part of it.

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