keeping my money for myself, but asking for some of the OH profit in house sale

(223 Posts)
Gingernutz Thu 26-Sep-13 13:11:45

So, before my OH and I got together, I owned a house and they owned a house.
We got together, I moved into THEIR house and rented my house out.
we BOTH paid into a joint account for about 7 years and split the mortgage payments and household/living expenses equally (based on income) on the house we were living in, and for the last three years i have been the sole contributor to the joint account, whilst the other house (my old one) ticked along paying for itself via tenants.
Last year I sold my house eventually and got a nice little sum of £'s.
We are now going to sell the house we are living in. My question..
AIBU if I keep all of the profit from my house AND expect a percentage of the profit the new house has made from the date i have been contributing/paying the mortgage?
My OH believes that we should also spilt the profit made from the sale of my house because we just happened to have chose THEIR house to live in, but I say, imagine that i had SOLD my house as soon as i moved out of it to move into the OH's house and the invested that money into, say, stocks and shares which then went on to make a nice profit (about the same as the profit i made on my initial investment in the house for instance!) would they THEN be entitled to that profit? I see the keeping on of the house as a continuing INVESTMENT of my money, so my OH has no claim on any of it, but when i started contributing to the mortgage of the OH's house, i TOO became a joint investor in THAT investment...
Emotion aside, what are peoples thoughts on this?
(sorry for length..and that something i NEVER thought i'd be saying)...

Inertia Thu 26-Sep-13 13:43:19

Sorry, I'm confused- who are the multiple people in the 'they owned' and 'their house'? Is there also an ex-spouse to be paid off?

I'm guessing saying 'they' so don't reveal gender, but my head hurts from it so good luck op.

flippingebay Thu 26-Sep-13 13:52:13

I think yabu.

Firstly, you wouldn't have been able to rent out your property, and in turn, have your tennants pay your mortgage (minus tax etc) without the help of your OH, ie living in his house. Ok you could have invested in stocks and shares, however the profit would be considerably less. Your choice!

So yes, I believe you owe him some of the proceeds of your house.

I also think you deserve to have a percentage of the profits from your OH house, as you paid into the mortgage, upkeep etc.

PatPig Thu 26-Sep-13 13:53:57

That OP would make more sense if you used the appropriate pronouns.

Then we could discuss things like why you have been the only contributor to the joint account (e.g., whether you are the father and 'OH' is the mother and hence not working for that reason).

As it is it's a waste of time.

ICameOnTheJitney Thu 26-Sep-13 13:54:26

Jesus. Is this your life partner you're talking about? Sounds like you have a business together not a relationship.

Gingernutz Thu 26-Sep-13 13:55:06

OK i figured it might me a little confusing, so sorry! I will try and break it down:
There are no other parties involved apart from ME and my OH.
Two houses, or 'investments'. Two profits.
One profit from an investment by ME on my own (no contribution from the OH at all).
One profit from an investment STARTED by my OH, but then jointly invested in by us both for the past ten years.
Is my OH entitled to any of the profit from the investment started by me?
Am I entitled to any of the profit from the investment started by them, but then jointly contributed to by us BOTH for the past ten years?

Does that simplify the question(s)?

Hegsy Thu 26-Sep-13 13:55:10

If you are buying a new house will all profits from both sales not go to new house? TBH if it was me I'd see everything as joint. It would worry me if you were my partner and this was how you were being.

onlytheonce Thu 26-Sep-13 13:55:24

I'm not quite clear on all the payments etc - have you been paying all of the mortgage and expenses for the last 3 years? If you had just been contributing to the costs then I would have seen it as in effect paying rent, but it puts a different slant on it if you have been keeping the whole thing going. But there's other issues such as: are you married? do you have kids? if you have kids has your OH stopped work?

PatPig Thu 26-Sep-13 13:58:15

Jesus.

No it is not broken down.

The only people that use 'they' to refer to their partner, in my experience are:

* men on mumsnet pretending to be women

* gay people not wanting to let on that they are gay

Now, which is it? My money is on the former, but do please tell.

MmeLindor Thu 26-Sep-13 13:58:39

I agree with flipping.

The reason you have been able to profit from the sale of your house is because you haven't needed to live in it.

Are you married?

I don't really understand this 'my money and his money' thing, tbh.

MissStrawberry Thu 26-Sep-13 14:01:02

It is clear to me that you feel you should benefit from the sale of your OH house as you have paid in to it. I agree but the percentage needs to be fair.

Your OH feels he should benefit from the sale of your singly owned house but you don't as he has never paid into the house.

Would you have been able to keep the house and benefit from the rental income if you hadn't moved into your OH house? ie would you have bought/rented somewhere else?

grin in camp patpig on this one.

You sound like a loving devoted couple.....not!!

I think YABU - you were quite happy to keep the money from the sale of your house so really, your OH should get to keep the money from the sale of his house. You would have had bills etc to pay regardless of whose house you were living in so that is a mute point really.

Beastofburden Thu 26-Sep-13 14:03:01

ginger much of your profit on your original investment was made possible by having tenants in it to pay the mortgage while property prices rose.

You would not have been able to do that without living in your OH's house.

You paid towards the mortgage, but you are claiming that as a reason for claiming part of the rise in investment in the "joint" property.

You can't make that contribution do two things at once. Was it rent, or was it co-investment?

i think that you can either:
Call it rent, keep your own profit and let your OH keep his/hers.
or
Call it mortgage, split the profit on the jointly funded property (pro-rata to the period where you co-invested) and pay your OH the equivalent of a commercial rental for the house you lived in, as his/her share of the profits on your investment.

CoffeeTea103 Thu 26-Sep-13 14:03:08

You wouldn't have been able to sell and make that profit in the first place if you were not living elsewhere, which was in your oh house. So firstly that should be shared. Secondly selling your current place any profit should be again shared. If you intend on living on a mine is mine way then I would think you have bigger issues than just this problem.

MmeLindor Thu 26-Sep-13 14:04:32

Ah, Patpig. Yes. That makes sense.

I answered thinking you were a woman, Ginger, so wasn't biased in any way.

YABU.

Ok I think OP is male. He moved into his DP home (previously a family home with an EX DH/DP). His house was rented and subsequently sold. Now DP house is being sold. He wants a share of that plus gets to keep the profit from his old home. That's because after living in the DP house rent free up until he sold his, he then paid towards the up keep and running of DP home.

Sorry if I have the gender wrong but it just simplifys things.

If I have it right and the timings are pretty equal (living rent-free / contributing) I wouldn't expect any money from the sale of the current house. Money spent on the house was part of your living costs. Unless you paid for an extension or new kitchen that increased the house price.

What was DP doing while you were the sole contributer?

MOTU Thu 26-Sep-13 14:06:18

I assume had your other half known you were going to have such a "mine and yours" attitude towards this they might have asked you to sell your house and invest the money in your now joint house, reducing the mortgage and making it a genuinely joint asset. Regardless, if this is your life partner then I personally would say all assets are joint and should be contributed to and shared equally but I'm old fashioned!

Beastofburden Thu 26-Sep-13 14:06:25

surely people trying to conceal that they are male/gay/martians would normally just lie and write "his" anyway?

anyway, we ought to be giving unbiased advice so I don't care which it is grin

Ah cross posted and got it all wrong, sorry ignore me.

DidoTheDodo Thu 26-Sep-13 14:07:38

My brain hurts.
But from the little I can understand, it sounds U to me.

In agreement with the notion that as you were able to live with your partner, your house was freed up to make a profit - and get your mortgage paid for you by the tenants. This wouldn't have been so if you were living in it.

LazyMonkeyButler Thu 26-Sep-13 14:08:08

So, in short you are saying "what's mine in mine and what's yours is mine?"

Why have you been the "only contributor" to the joint account for 3 years?

LazyMonkeyButler Thu 26-Sep-13 14:08:28

is mine not in mine. Obvs!

MoneyMug Thu 26-Sep-13 14:08:59

YABU

DidoTheDodo Thu 26-Sep-13 14:10:08

clutchingpearls your explanation made sense to me!

WilsonFrickett Thu 26-Sep-13 14:10:15

Surely in a partnership you share everything?
<head hurts>

PatPig Thu 26-Sep-13 14:12:16

My guess for what happened:

* Before they met, OP and his wife/partner had job and house each
* OP and wife decide to shack up - they move in to her house, around 10 years ago
* OP, because he was living in wife's house, is able to sell his house, making a profit, which he trousered entirely
*3 years ago she had a baby and gave up work to look after his baby
* Now he thinks she doesn't deserve the profits from her own house, which she owned before he met her, because he paid the mortgage for the last few years, ignoring the fact that she sacrificed her career to have his baby.

WhoNickedMyName Thu 26-Sep-13 14:12:29

YABU.

If you hadn't moved into your OH's house, then you wouldn't have been able to rent yours out.

You either split the proceeds from your sale AND from your OH's sale.

Or you keep your profit and your OH keeps theirs.

But you seem to want all yours AND some of theirs.

(I'm assuming you've been a sole contributor to the joint account whilst your OH has given up work for childcare/illness related reasons, rather than they just CBA working).

Gingernutz Thu 26-Sep-13 14:13:42

Wow! thanks for everyone fast response (at least the ones who were not slightly accusatory regarding my gender or sexual persuasion!).
I would say that a lot of you guys are focusing on the fact that the 'INVESTMENT' is a house and missing the point that, had I sold taken the money out of the house I owned and either frittered it away or invested it in something else that gave me as good a yield as property, would you all still feel that my OH should have some of that cash too?
I should point out too , every penny of that profit is going back into the NEW house we are buying. Together. As Wife and Husband....I don't want to seem like a complete selfish money grabber because if it was up to me it WOULD all go in the joint pot to be honest...

MillyStar Thu 26-Sep-13 14:14:28

Why does it even matter if you are lifelong partners?

Surely all of the profit from both homes will go into a joint account?

Very strange relationship IMO and you sound very greedy!!

MillyStar Thu 26-Sep-13 14:15:32

Sorry x post

If you want the money into a pot and they don't then I'd say its time to reevaluate the relationship

Fairylea Thu 26-Sep-13 14:15:51

You either share everything, or you don't.

You are not legally entitled to anything from your ohs house unless you are married or on the deeds..I know because I had all this with my ex who was trying to claim 20k from me because he'd paid towards windows... etc but basically little else. The solicitor in so many words said he could go fuck himself. Whatever you spent towards the property would have been spent renting somewhere and paying towards upkeep.

Or - you talk and both share some of the profits from both houses. Why should you get a nice tidy sum from your old property because you chose to move in with your oh and your oh gets no benefit from this? In a way he or she has enabled you to keep this going.

SuperiorCat Thu 26-Sep-13 14:16:23

Are you splitting up? If not I don't see the issue. You are a couple, just share everything.

If you are splitting up, then yes you do owe your DP some money from the rented house - living in the joint home enabled you to make money on the rented property.

MmeLindor Thu 26-Sep-13 14:17:13

Now I am confused. Is this a reverse AIBU?

Stop using OH and husband and wife and tell us the full story.

Using pronouns.

It makes it much easier to understand.

Are you investing the money from your house into the new house? Then why ask whether your wife should benefit from it?

Your investment into OH's house is dependent on the investment in your own house, because you could only make the investment by living there, or in a flat. So, to make it really short and sweet, your tenants paid the mortgage on your house, and you paid the rent in OHs house. So your tenants have a stake in Ohs house. wink

If you had not lived with OH, you would have paid rent somewhere.

To make it fair, you should have both rented somewhere together. Used rental income from your own properties to pay your rent. Then you would be in the same position as now. OH sells his/her house. You sell your house. You both keep your own profit and have no share in eithers.

Gingernutz Thu 26-Sep-13 14:17:22

to PatPig,
please see following post. I neither agree with your tone of post nor of your supposition of the facts. Both are well of the mark.
But thanks for your 'GUESS' and opinion

poppingin1 Thu 26-Sep-13 14:17:29

You sound greedy if I'm honest. and not the kind of person I would have a relationship with

As Dido and others have pointed out... "In agreement with the notion that as you were able to live with your partner, your house was freed up to make a profit - and get your mortgage paid for you by the tenants. This wouldn't have been so if you were living in it."

MmeLindor Thu 26-Sep-13 14:19:03

And I think you also have to distinguish between legal and moral responses to this.

If you are splitting up then your legal responsibility to your spouse will be different than the moral question of whether you are being an arse by withholding money from your family.

viperslast Thu 26-Sep-13 14:19:12

Assuming you were the only contributer for the last three years for good reason (dc, illness) rather than your current oh unilaterally deciding they cba to work then that is a non issue and should be treated the same as if equal contributions continued.

Therefore, technically (to my laymans eye) you are entitled to 50% of the rise in value of the shared home since you started to contribute. However your oh is entitled to the same on your property too. Your household income and outgoings included the rental and the mortgage payments for that time period.

You sound grabby and entitled. I really hope this conversation is because of a relationship breakdown because I would hate to think anyone could actually treat someone they love like this (pretty disgusting treating someone you used to love like that too tbh)

BreconBeBuggered Thu 26-Sep-13 14:19:39

My head might be hurting a bit now, I have to admit, but if as you say all your profit is going into a new house, what's the question about?

K8Middleton Thu 26-Sep-13 14:20:45

If you're married it makes no difference. When if she divorces you she gets 50% of the assets as a starting point. If you're married and playing "my money + my contribution = your money is my money" you should look up financial abuse and stop being a twat.

Of course I could be completely wrong and you're just playing "I've contributed more, aren't I wonderful and you're so lucky" or something else entirely because you have been deliberately obscure so who knows?!

One thing is certain, it's really annoying to ask for advice but not present the whole truth for debate.

MmeLindor Thu 26-Sep-13 14:21:26

Why can't you just be straight about the situation then, which would prevent us making assumptions and coming to our own conclusions.

Are you a man, and this is about your wife? Do you have children? Are you still together or splitting up?

MissStrawberry Thu 26-Sep-13 14:21:53

You ask if it is okay to want your own houses profit and some of your "OH's" too.

Then you say YOU want to put it all in one pot..

LazyMonkeyButler Thu 26-Sep-13 14:22:16

Is this a reverse AIBU? If not, I'm not sure I understand the "if it was up to me it would all go in the joint pot" comment.

If it is a reverse AIBU - why have you not been able to contribute to the joint account for 3 years? Are you either a SAHP or someone who is unable to work for health reasons?

People are only asking this because it does sort of make a difference as to the level of U.

MerylStrop Thu 26-Sep-13 14:22:22

Are you splitting up?

If not, why would you not consider all assets (profits???) as belonging to you jointly?

Alternatively, you could each look at the level of equity you each held in your respective homes and agree that is retained by each of you.

OBVIOUSLY this should have been sorted out many years ago, before trowing your lot in together.

(This must be a reverse AIBU)

K8Middleton Thu 26-Sep-13 14:22:31

Actually I've revised my position to "eh?"

poppingin1 Thu 26-Sep-13 14:23:34

I don't think anyone should assume the OP is a man or make guesses as to what the situation is beyond what OP has explained, which is enough to answer the question anyway.

Greed comes in all shapes, sizes and contexts.

Gingernutz Thu 26-Sep-13 14:23:42

Superoircat,
I actually agree with you and am not looking to "make money" from this at all and no, as far as i know we are NOT splitting up! smile
I can assure you, my ideal is just to plow everything I have and everything they have into the new house and whatever 'other' investments we can find to provide for OUR future and our childrens future. TBH it is my OH who wants to put figures etc on things because they were ripped off my someone many years ago and just don't want that to happen again.
To be clear, EVERTHING I have is going into the new family house...

Beccagain Thu 26-Sep-13 14:25:34

How many other halves do you have OP? Gives up on the rest of it

MmeLindor Thu 26-Sep-13 14:25:57

Popping
When I answered the OP, I was addressing a woman. I would have given the same answer to a man. It makes no difference to me.

The only think that makes a difference is that the three years of non-contribution - if that was because the OH was a SAHParent, then it should not be counted against them.

Or if they couldn't work for health reasons, obviously.

MerylStrop Thu 26-Sep-13 14:26:09

Yes, if you had taken out the money from the house and invested it elsewhere then I would expect the return on that investment to be jointly shared and owned.

Suggest you get legal advice, whichever party you are.

oscarwilde Thu 26-Sep-13 14:26:11

I agree with Beast of Burden at 14.03 regardless of your gender.
As to funding the joint account for 3 yrs. It's largely irrelvant to this question as you have not offered any reasons as to why and what you have gotten out of this arrangement so we have to ignore it.

If you are married or presume to be in a lifetime committment then all assets are joint assets in my view, regardless of what was brought to the table at the outset of the relationship. If you have not sought to protect them legally and discuss that up front, it would be presumed by any normal person that this was the arrangement.

onlytheonce Thu 26-Sep-13 14:26:52

I still don't get what's going on. If it's all going towards a new house together then isn't it all shared anyway? Or is there some sort of contract about who owns what proportion of the house?

Fairylea Thu 26-Sep-13 14:27:21

I find it all very odd.

You don't sound very committed... when dh and I decided to get married and begin our lives together I put dh on the deeds to my house (which I owned outright atthe time) and we remortgaged for exactly half, which in effect dh is paying for as I am now sahm to our ds and dh is paying for everything. So we will totally own everything half and half. I would not be comfortable doing it any other way.

I have been done over financially in a previous marriage to the tune of losing 50k and my old house but I truly believe holding your cards to your chest as you seem to is a receipe for disaster. I really believe you should share everything, investments and property otherwise you are just the equivalent of flat mates.

K8Middleton Thu 26-Sep-13 14:27:52

<changes tack> Do you have ginger nuts?

MmeLindor Thu 26-Sep-13 14:28:03

Ah, ok.

So is this the situation.

You want to put everything into the new house, one pot, but she is scarred by previous experience and would like to retain her 'share'. Just in case.

Is that it?

LazyMonkeyButler Thu 26-Sep-13 14:28:19

OK. Then what is the issue?

Is it that your OH wants the new house purchase to be legally split 60%/40% (for example)? Because if you are both putting all of your money into the new house purchase then I can't see your problem TBH confused.

Surely, if you are married, law will dictate who gets what in the case of a separation anyway?

WilsonFrickett Thu 26-Sep-13 14:28:28

But your OP was based on 'keeping my money for myself' so why does it matter if it's all going into the new house?

And PLEASE stop with the RANDOM capitals.

DuelingFanjo Thu 26-Sep-13 14:28:30

this is a reverse thing yeah?

Beastofburden Thu 26-Sep-13 14:28:51

Hi ginger

I would say that a lot of you guys are focusing on the fact that the 'INVESTMENT' is a house and missing the point that, had I sold taken the money out of the house I owned and either frittered it away or invested it in something else that gave me as good a yield as property, would you all still feel that my OH should have some of that cash too?

Yes, that would be another good way to evaluate it. I guess what we are trying to quantify is the fair value that your OH has added to your investment by providing a place to live so that you could keep your investment in that specific property.

You could get a baseline for your own money- what you could have made without anyone's help. Take the market value of the house at the time that you moved in with OH, less the transaction costs you would have incurred in selling it, and see what the post tax profit would be if you had, say, invested that net sum in a cheap tracker fund. Compare that with your actual post-tax profit on the investment in property that you actually made, plus the post-tax rental income you enjoyed over the period (less costs). Any surplus is the bonus of having been able to be in property rather than any other investment.

Having established that surplus, how much of it is morally your OH's? I would say, the lower of: that surplus and 50% of the commercial rental value of his/her house.

What is a tad U is not recognising that your OH has made any contribution towards your investment. Yes, s/he has made it possible for you to have that specific investment, with all the benefits of tax free periods, reduced transaction costs and a stonking property market, rather than anything else.

I understand this is theoretical and I am glad as it does sound a little odd otherwise. Why do you want to establish this? is it to agree who owns how much of the new house?

DontCallMeDaughter Thu 26-Sep-13 14:28:55

My DH has an investment plan which will mature in about 5 years and give him a very nice lump sum. I have never contributed to this fund in anyway, he set it up years and years before meeting me. But when it matures, the money will become "ours". I don't expect him to cut me a cheque for 50%, or even put it in our joint account, but I do expect him to discuss with me what we use it for and make a joint decision about spending it (we already have it earmarked for home improvements but that could change...)

When we both sold our flats to buy a house together, my profit/contribution was over twice what his was, but we both put it all in the house and I consider it jointly & equally owned.

We're married, so it might be different, but everything is 50/50 in our household and if we were to break up, I'd expect it to get split 50/50 again.

I think YABU.

DuelingFanjo Thu 26-Sep-13 14:29:21

oh and why are you the sole contributor to the joint account?

MissStrawberry Thu 26-Sep-13 14:31:09

biscuit

BreconBeBuggered Thu 26-Sep-13 14:31:10

Your 'explanation' about your OH's wishes and your intention to plough all the profits from your house sale into a new joint property doesn't really match up with your thread title about 'keeping my money for myself', does it?

Gingernutz Thu 26-Sep-13 14:31:32

Blimey, I wasn't quite expecting this amount of abuse and conclusion jumping to be honest....
there are WAYYYY to many of you falling into the same thought process here. FORGET the fact that the investment i had was a HOUSE.
if we had both chosen to SELL our houses when we got together and jointly invest in another house, then nothing would be in debate. They would keep what profit they made on the sale of their house and i would keep the profit i made on MY house and WE would own the new house jointly so profit 50/50 from the new house. is everyone in agreement with THAT?

poppingin1 Thu 26-Sep-13 14:31:54

My comment was more to PatPig.

I just don't think it is helpful to make grande assumptions.

Although, I do suspect the OP is a bloke grin

I just think making assumptions may drive OP to disregard balanced opinions on the subject IYSWIM.

Is the "ripped off by someone" the ex wife? Who jointly owned the current house before your relationship?

Gingernutz Thu 26-Sep-13 14:33:17

DontCallMeDaughter,
as i have said, all the money i have made from the house HAS been invested into the new house we are buying, it is OURS, not mine....and to be honest it's actually the KIDS not even ours, we are just (hopefully) building on it for them!)

MmeLindor Thu 26-Sep-13 14:33:38

Ginger
The reason you are getting a bit of flack is that you are being evasive and not explaining yourself well.

You now say that everything should go into the same pot, but your OP said the opposite.

Beastofburden Thu 26-Sep-13 14:33:45

ginger do you accept my analysis?

I have tried to give you a fair professional assessment, I normally charge quite a lot for this kind of thing it doesn't feel as if you are listening.

Fairylea Thu 26-Sep-13 14:34:04

I'm not in agreement with that. Surely all savings and investments become shared when you are married??

ExitPursuedByADragon Thu 26-Sep-13 14:34:25

No.

Can you just make up your mind?

This is beginning to remind me of the leaves blowing outside, dancing hither and tither.

poppingin1 Thu 26-Sep-13 14:35:36

Ginger you seem to be chopping and changing from wanting one thing to another.

MerylStrop Thu 26-Sep-13 14:36:50

if we had both chosen to SELL our houses when we got together and jointly invest in another house, then nothing would be in debate. They would keep what profit they made on the sale of their house and i would keep the profit i made on MY house and WE would own the new house jointly so profit 50/50 from the new house. is everyone in agreement with THAT?

Not necessarily. Only if that is what you both agreed and decided at the time. It's not how it works in my relationship. Everything is jointly owned regardless of where it came from in the first place.

I repeat, get some legal advice

onlytheonce Thu 26-Sep-13 14:37:28

No I'm not in agreement with that ginger. Surely the profit from your respective sales would be going to the new house so neither of you get to keep anything. Unless you want to keep the cash and get a new mortgage but that seems a bit odd to me. Or you've got enough from your respective sales to buy the house outright with a significant amount left over.

Gingernutz Thu 26-Sep-13 14:38:43

BreconBeBuggered
no you're right, the original title may have been a little mis-leading, for which I apologise .
This actually stems from an issue my OH has NOT me insofar as (due to previous experience) they just want to make sure they don't feel 'ripped off' by not PHYSICALLY getting any of the cash i got from the sale of my house....It's a crazy thing tbh and it stems from some insecurity on THEIR part not mine....i 100% feel that we should be working as a TEAM on this and putting whatever WE can into the pot, they just don't want to do that as they seem to want a 'contingency'....

MummytoMog Thu 26-Sep-13 14:38:51

I don't understand this 'your' money and 'my' money thing, although I'm told lots of people do it. My OH bought his house on his own. When I moved in a few years later we pooled our money totally and in my mind and his, the house became a joint property (although not legally of course). When we moved all of his profit went into our new house which is properly jointly owned, but he would never have dreamed of asking for some kind of 'cut' to represent 'his' money. Crazy. Mind you I earn double what he does, so it's not worked out too badly for him in the end.

LazyMonkeyButler Thu 26-Sep-13 14:38:57

No, I am not in agreement.

Had both yourself & your OH sold your "previous investments" on meeting & then bought a new house "investment" together, you would both have had to use your profits towards the purchase, no? That "investment" would then be a joint one, which you would jointly own.

Much the same as you both putting everything you have into the new property now.

I'm still not sure I get this thread confused.

Beastofburden Thu 26-Sep-13 14:39:57

Giner- well if you dont mind and s/he does, why not give him/her 50%?

it's all theoretical, if you split the courts would decide anyway.

ICameOnTheJitney Thu 26-Sep-13 14:40:24

You and your OH have children...your money is not your money...it belongs to both.

viperslast Thu 26-Sep-13 14:40:33

It would depend if you both sold for the same amount, obviously!

Seriously you are both entitled to a share of profit from both properties whilst you have been together. Assuming both are similar of a similar value you will both be putting a similar amount into new property and it is a null argument. If one property is significantly more valuable get the calculator out for five minutes. It should be fairly simple to get a working figure.

The gender of any party here is irrelevant but it would be simpler to follow if you used "my oh" rather than they.

WhoNickedMyName Thu 26-Sep-13 14:41:11

If you'd sold your house immediately when you moved in with your OH and invested your profit into stocks and shares, then I would still think you should split it with your OH.

In this situation, the only reason you were able to make the profit, is because you moved into your OH's house.

LazyMonkeyButler Thu 26-Sep-13 14:42:39

Right, so is the situation that your OH is keeping the money from their house sale - plus wanting some physical cash from your house sale whilst the rest of the proceeds from the sale of your house form the entire deposit on the new property?

Please answer the question for a change.

Gingernutz Thu 26-Sep-13 14:44:22

beastofburden - Thank you, yes this is a somewhat less emotional breakdown and answer, so thank you for that...
I have to say, the facts are all there, i just didn't want to bog it all down with emotion but i see now that people have just drawn all the wrong conclusion about the issue and wanting to know the ins an outs of everything which was a little offputting for a first time poster!
Please do try to be a little less blunt people eh??

Beastofburden Thu 26-Sep-13 14:45:57

Hope it's a helpful way to analyse it and that your OH ends up with a result s/he feels is fair and reasonable.

MerylStrop Thu 26-Sep-13 14:48:28

Third and last time: get some legal advice

You are getting a lot of shit on this thread and here's why. You are being evasive about gender. This means that you believe we would be biased or judgmental based on your sexuality or gender. This happens in 99% of cases (stat made up in the spot) because the OP is either gay and thinks we are homophobic, or male and thinks we are biased based on gender.

You are saying, albeit covertly, "could I have some advice, even though I think you are bigots, cheers?".

Gingernutz Thu 26-Sep-13 14:56:19

Thanks Everyone for a peak inside this mumsnet world, i think i will go and get a cup of tea now...I feel a little beaten and bruised if I'm honest.
Thanks to those who have offered their opinions but some of you guys need to chill the fek out and stop jumping to conclusions simply because i don't want to give EVERY SINGLE ASPECT (as in all my posts here, caps intentional to add emphasis since i don't have the time or inclination to do the 'correct' typograpical hoop jumping) of my life away.
Seriously.
Be Nice..
FFS..

Gingernutz Thu 26-Sep-13 14:58:06

MrsTerryPratchett
I think the tone of some of the posts themselves kind of make your point somewhat moot does it not?

You started it <stamps foot>

Seriously, it is some posts. Try the question on a male-oriented website and see if it's all suffragettes and sparkle dust.

sparechange Thu 26-Sep-13 15:01:46

No, YABU

And you are trying to have it both ways.
For the purposes of splitting the money, you want to count your contribution to your partners mortgage as you making an investment towards that property. But if you want to consider a mortgage without your name on it jointly yours, then you have to consider the mortgage without their name on it joint as well.

Because if you were going to play hardball and demand you keep your profit, then I would argue back that you've just been paying rent since moving in and aren't entitled to any of the uplift in that place.

Either way, it sounds like you have a pretty dysfunctional attitude towards money, so maybe you need to address that before buying somewhere together

DidoTheDodo Thu 26-Sep-13 15:03:04

I was in a complicated financial situation when H and I married so we drew up a pre nup agreement that we are both happy with, addressing the housing needs and ownership of ourselves and our families.

Too late for that?

onlytheonce Thu 26-Sep-13 15:03:42

Ginger,
The reason you've got grief is that you have been evasive. You might not want to give the details but those details are critical as to whether things seem right or not and will judge people's opinion.

By not answering these things it feels like you are being evasive to get the answer you want.

Oh, and writing in capitals comes across as shouty. Even if all you are meaning is to emphasise certain things.

By the way, I'm a bloke and have typically found mumsnet to be fair regardless of gender.

handcream Thu 26-Sep-13 15:03:47

I have completely lost track of this. I know the break up/divorce rate has shot up over the last 20 years....

I think its a sad fact that people dont stay with each other forever and dont presume they are going hence, the my house, his money etc.

As a warning - many many years ago my father and mother (both working) brought a house. My father put it in his name. He never revealed how much he earned and in those days the MAN filled in the tax return for his wife who was clearly too stupid to do it herself.

Mum thinks in reality they were both earning about the same. When they divorced 17 yrs later he stated that the house was his, and offered a solicitor to sort this all out in a friendly way.

The outcome was that Mum signed away what is now a £1.2 million house. He did buy a 50% share of a new house so effectively he had 1.5 house and Mum had 0.5. When we reached late teens he then forced her to move. She is doing fine although she has a mortgage until she dies (Lifetime mortgage with Halifax)

He now lives in one of those hoarders houses all bitter and twisted.

Gingernutz Thu 26-Sep-13 15:03:55

I don't think it matters what my gender or orientation are but, clearly there are people on here who DO have an agenda and will be biased you would have to agree. I assumed it best not to make it a battle of the sexes, and based on some of the replies my and my OH gender does seem to have some baring on the question. I was after a holistic answer to a somewhat theoretical question.
What i got was a barrage of supposition and, in some cases, abuse...

Turniptwirl Thu 26-Sep-13 15:04:58

I don't get it. OP is anyway regardless if gender or orientation.

If you're both putting everything into your new house then wtf does it matter?!

Without your oh you couldn't have made the money you did on your house investment. she they are entitled to some of yours if you want some of there's. Or you keep yours and they keep theirs and consider your contribution as rent.

But I don't get why this is even an issue since all the money will be going into one pot ie your new house . Pretty sure the issue is yours and you flipped it onto your oh when people said you were being an arse unreasonable.

onlytheonce Thu 26-Sep-13 15:06:07

You didn't answer critical information so people made assumptions. Lesson learned no?

Gingernutz Thu 26-Sep-13 15:07:34

onlytheonce i don't think i have been evasive, i simply have not spread my complete life in front of a bunch of strangers in one fell swoop...
sorry if my forum etiquette isn't up to par..

Gingernutz Thu 26-Sep-13 15:08:32

onlytheonce i Oh I've learned a grrrreat deal from this little social exercise.

MissStrawberry Thu 26-Sep-13 15:10:43

Your OP and further posts did not make sense.

Your title was not a little misleading, it was the opposite of what you later claimed.

You didn't answer fair questions and then start saying you have had abuse when you hadn't.

Make sense. Don't contradict yourself. Be concise. You will get plenty of advice then.

Gingernutz Thu 26-Sep-13 15:11:17

By the way, is it still law that if a married couple split up, then everything gets split 50/50 anyway (unless there are other agreements in place negating that)?

PatPig Thu 26-Sep-13 15:11:41

Yes of course your gender has a bearing on the situation.

In the OP you paint the scenario that your OH has mysteriously stopped paying into the joint account, after seven years. You give no explanation for this, but argue that this entitles you to a share of your OH's house.

Now it turns out that you have children.

I have suggested that you are the father and your wife gave up work to have children, as is very common with families, and 95% of the time WOMAN gives up her career, enabling the MAN to continue working, which otherwise might be impossible (if HE had to look after the children).

If your wife has made that sacrifice then she is contributing just as much as you are. The money that you are earning while she has been raising your children is equally hers.

onlytheonce Thu 26-Sep-13 15:12:26

Why not spread your life out, it's anonymous. And how can you expect a serious answer without answering things such as whether you have children with this person and if you are married?

self fulfilling prophecy. I thought you would all be sexist, I acted as if you would be, you closed ranks (unsurprisingly), now LOOK I'm right.

If you ask here, try to adhere to a little forum etiquette. If you want 'nice' for example, there is Netsmums...

cestlavielife Thu 26-Sep-13 15:14:59

it goes down to trusts of land act TOLATa
unless you both were named as joint owners on both houses then yes your hous was yours and their house was/is theirs and your profis are yours and theirs are theirs.

if you paid contributions it is more like you rented in their house - so unless your name was put on land registry/mortgage it doesnt matter under TOLATA what you paid, you have no right to their profit/equity. (only if you paid for eg massive extension or conservatoy or soemthing physical like that)

so unless you got married/civil partnership
or
had your name put as joint owner
then whats theirs is theirs an whats yours is yours

if they want to gift you anything - up to them.
ditto for you

if there are children for whom they have parnetal responsibility then there might be a claim for the children

you or they might be able to claim under TOATA as "a person who has an interest in a property but whose name does not appear on the Title to the property." you would ahve to to prove that inerest. but "renting" does not prove interest...I dont get any equity profit if my landlord from whom i rent decides to sell ....

see for example www.sleeblackwell.co.uk/page/cohabitation-or-living-together-agreements.html

TinyTear Thu 26-Sep-13 15:15:53

my head hurts!

but at least the OP used they and them and not ze said and zer house and zis house and things I saw on other forums that really made my head hurt!

cestlavielife Thu 26-Sep-13 15:17:07

that link says : "•That you can claim a share in your partner’s house which you have lived in because you have paid bills or have had children together: Not true."

Gingernutz Thu 26-Sep-13 15:21:35

PatPig - what usually happens, i wont pluck a percentage out of the air becuase that would be nonsense, is that whoever is the higher earner stays in work, that is basic economical sense. That is what happend in our case when yes, as a man (shock horror, i knew it was man, should have realised from the quote at the very end of the ORIGINAL POST that it was a man etc, etc) I continued working and my wife and I AGREED that it would cost us too much to pay for the childcare of two children if she and I stayed in full time employment, so being the lesser earner, she stopped her job (not ALWAYS the same a s a career i can assure you). I don't think i have ever said that my wife has 'not contributed' in any way so climb back down from that soapbox/high horse.
Please.

wakemeupnow Thu 26-Sep-13 15:22:03

I think legally , if you got married and moved into his house, then all your assets from before the mariage would remain your assets. You have been contributing to his mortgage and therefore are entitled to a share of the profits. I think that legally he's not entitled to any of yours.

However morally , given that he's your life partner I think it would be fairer to share the profits.

wakemeupnow Thu 26-Sep-13 15:25:45

Oh shit I shouldn't have just skimmed through the previous posts ... I see it's more complicated .. ignore what I just said ... !

onlytheonce Thu 26-Sep-13 15:27:49

Oh give over ginger. In your OP you implied that as you have been the sole contributor for the last 3 years you deserve some share of the house. Can you really not see that that is how it comes across?

And yes people on here can be touchy about this, because women in general get screwed over when they have kids. Your gender does make a difference.

Gingernutz Thu 26-Sep-13 15:30:05

wakemeupnow - i think you were wise to skip....
my original question/s were actually more to do with what is MORALLY right or wrong,not specifically legally wrong or right.
As i have said, this stems from my OH's desire to have something 'in reserve' if it all goes tits up which I too find pretty hurtful TBH, but there we go...
I am in this for the duration and so in the end, it's all going to the kids anyway (isn't that what we are ALL doing it for??)

lucidlady Thu 26-Sep-13 15:31:21

Ginger, was this meant to be a reverse AIBU, in that you are the one who wants to share everything but your wife is resisting?

If so then yes she is being unreasonable.

Gingernutz Thu 26-Sep-13 15:32:06

onlytheonce - well, it shouldn't make a difference to the facts but once emotion and 'female intuition and logic' gets in the way of facts it gets messy and somewhat biased.

fuckwittery Thu 26-Sep-13 15:33:08

If you have been married ten years and have children, everything is in the joint pot and should be available to you both. If you'd kept profit from yr house in savings for 10 years,it would still be available to your OH to claim against in the event of a divorce. Starting point equal division, with adjustment for needs, rarely is there enough money left over to think about who brought what in after 10 years, essentially doesn't really matter whose name it is in now unless you are separating and want to split the assets now, I'm not clear. Its an academic argument if you're still together. Family lawyer here.

Gingernutz Thu 26-Sep-13 15:34:26

lucidlady - Is she though?
she is feeling 'once bitten' and all that, which is a little understandable but why is there the expectation that we have of "whats mine is yours and whats yours is mine"?

Wuldric Thu 26-Sep-13 15:35:45

This thread is an abject lesson to women that:

1. Put not your trust in men. Put your trust in yourself
2. Do not give up your financial independence. 50% of marriages end up in divorce. If you give up your independence and get divorced, you're the mug who ends up hoping to goodness their exes will be civilised enough to pay what they owe.
3. Most people - not just men - are capable of believing they are in the right as they screw you over. Royally.

I don't know what gender the OP is, but nevertheless, he/she seems to me to be a miserly and niggardly person. You can delete me for this if you will MN. But the agenda is screwing the other person over, which is not a good thing.

Gingernutz Thu 26-Sep-13 15:38:58

I think it comes down to her wanting to have a 60/40% share in the new house because thats the kind of ratio we will be putting in financially.
I feel that it hurts a bit that she feels the need for this and her opinion is that its "just in case we split" and she needs to be able to provide for the children, as though I am going to be one of the arse fathers who basically take from the kids... like i would ever take the roof from my childrens heads...
Am i STILL the 'Twat' here then?

PatPig Thu 26-Sep-13 15:39:09

"but once emotion and 'female intuition and logic' gets in the way of facts it gets messy and somewhat biased."

lol.....

lucidlady Thu 26-Sep-13 15:40:22

Ginger, I think you hit the nail on the head when you said it is about your kids and your family. You are a unit - its all for one and one for all, in my view. Why would you have his and hers shares if it isn't done fairly? She can't hae it both ways. Either she keeps her money and you keep yours, or you BOTH share.

YouHaveAGoodPoint Thu 26-Sep-13 15:42:34

sad your OP is very confusing... I promise my opinion would be the same whatever your sex was.

I think you should both pool all the money/profits etc. It always seems odd to me that people will happily share their genetic composition but not their cash.

Share everything smile. (If each of your want your own little nest egg you could each take an equal amount to have as your own money)

Gingernutz Thu 26-Sep-13 15:42:35

Wuldric you have failed to grasp the whole concept of the thread and the direction from which I come which, unlike your own bitter direction, is one of wishing to have a holistic view of my relationship and finance. you seem to be both bemoaning the very same thing that you are eulagising about in the very same post! most strange...

lucidlady Thu 26-Sep-13 15:43:18

Just to clarify, I have been in this situation so I speak from experience. My DH and I originally bought our house on a 60:40 basis 5 years ago. It is now 50:50 because we made some major capital improvements to the house that he paid for, and I felt it only fair that his additional investment also be recognised from an equity point of view.

Gingernutz Thu 26-Sep-13 15:43:54

and Wuldric , i am most def. a man.
Not a he/she.

WilsonFrickett Thu 26-Sep-13 15:44:38

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

PatPig Thu 26-Sep-13 15:45:48

"I think it comes down to her wanting to have a 60/40% share in the new house because thats the kind of ratio we will be putting in financially."

I'm confused, who is 60, who is 40?

You and your wife are as I understand it buying a new house.

What proportion of the equity do you want for you both to have, and what proportion of the equity does she want for you both to have?

Gingernutz Thu 26-Sep-13 15:49:33

60% her, 40% me

MmeLindor Thu 26-Sep-13 15:49:58

If you had laid that all out in your initial post, then you would have got different answers, sure. Because we would be going on facts rather than bits and pieced of information.

Despite what you seem to believe, most of us are quite fair and would give an honest answer. I certainly did.

How about this as an alternative OP. I think the responses would have been different if you had written this, which is really what you are concerned about, imo.

AIBU to be hurt that my DW doesn't trust me?

I rented my house when we moved in together and have now sold my house, which I want to invest with her in a house that we buy together. She would prefer to ascertain exactly how much each of us is contributing financially, and keep her portion separate.

She was badly stung years before we married, and is reluctant to put all her eggs in the one basket. I understand her reasoning but am a bit upset that she doesn't fully trust me to not run off with her money, leaving her and our kids high and dry?

"like i would ever take the roof from my childrens heads..."

She is being very sensible.

If you read on here enough, you will find that 90% of men DO in fact not only take the roof from their own childrens heads, they forget they even exist, the moment they move on with some other woman. They will even favour new women's children over their own, and will be quite happy to kick out the mother of their children and their children if they can house a new love interest and her brood.

PatPig Thu 26-Sep-13 15:55:13

So where is the money from the house you sold before? Is that going into the new house?

Or is that as savings in your name?

I think savings + house should all be done 50/50. At least as a starting point.

But if you've said to her when you sold that house 'this money from my house [that you sold before] is mine', then naturally she's going to want a bigger share on the house now.

If you still have more than a few £k in savings then I can understand her position.

If there's nothing really left then the house should be 50/50.

YouHaveAGoodPoint Thu 26-Sep-13 15:55:30

What about you and your wife putting equal amounts into the new house and the excess from your wife's pot being given direct to the children.

It sort of adds up to the same thing but might be more palatable to your wife. ??

I would be upset if my partner of more than 7 years and joint parents of my kids wanted to retain money in case of divorce.

Let me get this straight. You say "60% her, 40% me" Because that is the equity you put in.

If you are unhappy about that, then you are already taking from the mother of your children, and you have not even split.

Ponder that one, for a game of soldiers....

MmeLindor Thu 26-Sep-13 15:56:04

I don't think a lot of men realise how often women find themselves in the situation that they have given up their career to raise a family, or struggled to get back into the workforce.

It makes one feel rather vulnerable. At present, if my DH had a midlife crisis and ran off to Tahiti, I would be fucked. I don't expect that to happen, and in my heart and my mind I know he wouldn't do that, but I do sometimes think that women who have a tiny nest egg are wiser than I am.

Generally speaking, the women are left with the kids so we feel we are having to secure their futures too.

Beastofburden Thu 26-Sep-13 15:57:40

Well look, ginger, here's what I would do in your shoes.

Let her have the ratio that makes her feel safe
Quietly double heck the figures using the method I suggested to you
If you separate (hope you don't) get a lawyer because the actual split will be what the law says it is. Long marriage, over ten years, 50 : 50 I think but I am no expert.

Gingernutz Thu 26-Sep-13 15:57:44

PatPig - every penny of everything i own is gone into the new house.

onlytheonce Thu 26-Sep-13 15:58:24

Ginger, I think you need to start a new thread because it was incredibly confusing to start with, and I can understand why you got the reaction you did.

Anyway, I would be put out too by things not being split evenly, and you'd have to check but I thought if you were married it doesn't really matter?

From a purely financial view, if you paid the mortgage 50/50 (or viewed her looking after the kids as contributing half) then the share would equal out as you paid the mortgage off. How would that be assessed? It all gets a bit complicated.

If she's had an experience in the past where she's been screwed over then her attitude is a bit more understandable even though it hurts. Would you be willing to let her keep a separate pot of money as a 'just in case' and the house to be 50/50?

Gingernutz Thu 26-Sep-13 15:58:55

YouHaveAGoodPoint - you have a good point...
however, we need to extend the new house to make extra bedrooms etc which is where we need the extra money from my wife from.

MmeLindor Thu 26-Sep-13 15:59:41

I agree with BeastofBurden.

If you ever were to split, this would be sorted out by a solicitor.

If it makes your wife feel more secure, what does it matter?

"every penny of everything i own is gone into the new house."

Would your wife say the same?

If so, she would be very vulnerable the moment you decide to boost your ego a little. She will find herself with children, no OH, children crying for daddy, no money, no job, while you ponce like a peacock without a care in the world.

If you are sure this would not happen, then I honestly dont see why you are objecting!

YouHaveAGoodPoint Thu 26-Sep-13 16:00:54

Blimey some of these posts are very depressing. Do people really need to be that cynical about marriage sad. Lots and lots of marriages do work out well.

Gingernutz Thu 26-Sep-13 16:06:50

I guess i should just go with what beastofburden says as i have no intention of it getting to a point where it is relevant anyway..
i have absolutely no intention, even if we did split, of 'expecting' half or indeed any more financially than I put in and, unlike the f*ck knuckles to which MmeLindor and others allude, I would walk away with nothing rather than see my children suffer in any way.

Lots and lots of marriages do work out well. And lots don't. I was lucky that my ex-H acted like a gentleman during our divorce. I asked for less than I was entitled to and he didn't quibble at all. That is NOT a lot of people's experience.

Hope for the best, plan for the worst.

MmeLindor Thu 26-Sep-13 16:07:46

Youhaveagoodpoint
I am not really cynical, but am quite realistic as I have gotten to an age where I see it happening to friends. I had a friend whose DH buggered off with a younger woman, leaving her with 3 kids. He went 'freelance' so that he could cook his books and say he wasn't earning much, so he didn't have to pay maintenance. When we met them a year before, they seemed like a close and happy couple.

I know that my DH wouldn't leave me high and dry, and I also know that I would be able to support myself but it would be a struggle.

So why are you objecting to letting your wife feel secure then?

Gingernutz Thu 26-Sep-13 16:08:20

QuintessentialShadows - you know women do leave men too right?
and not always because the man has been a nob.

Gingernutz Thu 26-Sep-13 16:10:20

QuintessentialShadows - and that cuts both ways does it?
god forbid i should be left emotionally and finacially pi**ing in the wind eh? Ah well, Men deserve it right?

MmeLindor Thu 26-Sep-13 16:11:00

Gingernutz
Don't get me wrong, I am not a 'all men are bastards' kind of person. I have a decent man, who would say exactly the same as you about the fucknuckles who walk away from their families. He was horrified by the behavior of our friend's husband.

I just think, that if this helps her feel secure, then it is worth taking it on the chin and not seeing it as a slight.

Gingernutz Thu 26-Sep-13 16:13:04

MmeLindor - i rather feel you are right. it's all wrapped up in bricks and morter anyway...
Fuck it, she can have the lot grin)

PatPig Thu 26-Sep-13 16:13:47

I am slightly confused by your language here.

You said in your OP:

'Last year I sold my house eventually and got a nice little sum of £'s'

So YOU sold YOUR house, in your eyes.

'We are now going to sell the house we are living in. '

But now WE are selling OUR house.

You don't say 'we sold my house' and 'we sold her house', you say 'I sold my house' and 'we are selling our house'.

My sisters ex husband withholds maintenance every time they disagree over something, as he likes to use money to make my sister do as he says. He even once retracted his signature for his daughters passport, so that she ended up as an illegal in her own home country (abroad) just to make it difficult for them. He has also stopped working, in order to pay minimum maintenance. Instead, he is living on commission on a something. He has built a mansion for his new wife, her two children, they have a maid. He would not buy new wellies for his daughter when she spent 6 weeks for summer with him, because it was my sisters responsibility as the resident parent to ensure she has all the clothes and shoes she needs. He let his own daughter wear too tight wellies so her feet hurt, for the sake of less than £20 to score points and "get" to his ex wife. (On disability benefit)

Once they loved eachother, you know. Like you love your wife and say you will never let your kids go without.

I know women leave men too. My friends wife left. He is a single dad of two kids now. She left with nothing.

MmeLindor Thu 26-Sep-13 16:19:28

That is horrific, Quint.

That is what I don't understand - you wouldn't treat your worst enemy like that, so why treat someone you loved so badly? Even if the love has gone. And that is before we get to the way that must make their kids feel.

oh dont get me started on what my niece feels.

If it was not for the fact that she now has a little sister, she would have cut contact. That, and the fact that her dads siblings are refusing to see her (and let her see her cousins) unless she stays in touch with her dad. [arses]

Calloh Thu 26-Sep-13 16:33:27

Ginger, you are right to want it to all go together. You probably need to talk to your wife and explain how it makes you feel (like she doesn't trust you etc).

But you probably also need to think why she might feel like this. You said in your original post that she hadn't contributed to her mortgage. As others have said she has enabled you to have children and keep your career so as you have been told many times, and acknowledged, she has massively contributed to the mortgage just not financially. Perhaps she is picking up on this and thinking that it is you who has a 'this is mine, this is ours' attitude and is therefore feeling insecure and financially vulnerable.

I am also insulted by your stupid comments about emotions and intuition. It is so irritating. I don't see much abuse directed at you merely frustration at your invasion and an apparent change in what you mean.

I agree with you that your original post clearly showed you were a male by your final comment so why bother with all the oH/they stuff?

Gingernutz Thu 26-Sep-13 16:34:13

QuintessentialShadows - I hear what you are saying and totally agree, the guy is a waste of space and I feel most sorry for the children who will eventually have to learn that their father is a complete arse. But we ain't all like it....

Calloh Thu 26-Sep-13 16:36:06

I meant evasion not invasion but tante as probably my hyper-emotionalism and feminine flutters making me lose my grip for a second.

Now I must take some smelling salts and go back to musing on kittens.

Calloh Thu 26-Sep-13 16:36:42

Oh fuck it, that and not tante. Bugger.

Gingernutz Thu 26-Sep-13 16:37:05

PatPig - don't worry, you just seem to want me to provide you with a misogyny stick to beat me with but thatsnot going to happen today, sorry

And it is because you are not like that, it does not matter how you split the assets now, as if there is a split you will both be reasonable and fair.

PatPig Thu 26-Sep-13 16:39:41

It's not about misogyny sticks, I'm just pointing out how it comes across. It's common for men to feel that they control the finances because they work and the wife does not.

Gingernutz Thu 26-Sep-13 16:41:43

Calloh - my remark was intentionally and misguidedly facetious for which I apologise and regarding my oh/they stuff, I actually forgot i put the comment at the beginning post and did actually find it somewhat amusing that so many people made suppositions based on nothing at all other than gut feeling and intuition.

handcream Thu 26-Sep-13 16:42:56

Wildric -I agree with you. With the high divorce rates and realtionship break ups please make sure you have your own independance. I see so many on threads claiming their partners would never leave them and often that their partners are paying their share of tax and NI enabling them to get a state pension whilst they are a SAHM.

At the risk of being flamed. I think you leave your self open....

Gingernutz Thu 26-Sep-13 16:44:22

yes, QuintessentialShadows but it also because i am like that , that i did not want to 'reveal' that i was a man because you yourself have shown that there is in some, yourself included to some degree, a bias based solely on the fact that i am a man and so 'this is what men do'....

Calloh Thu 26-Sep-13 16:45:01

Ok, fair enough.

I agree with you - it would be hurtful to think that one's spouse wanted to keep a portion of profit from their house sale whilst expecting the other partner to put all of their profit into the purchase of a new property. It is unfair regardless of spouse's former experience and I would think the best way forward would be a full and frank discussion and the reiteration that she should trust you as you're in for the long haul - like you said.

Gingernutz Thu 26-Sep-13 16:47:31

PatPig - but were the roles reversed (not as common but not unheard of by ANY degree) i just don't think the 'advice' would be slanted in the same direction is all.
Anywho, it's all moot in reality and we've all had a good time venting and passing the time when some of us should probably have been working a bit more, being the main breadwinner and wage earner and all... If jobs were lost then we'd ALL be up shit creak, 60/40 split of not!...

handcream Thu 26-Sep-13 16:50:03

All, 50% of people on Mumsnet will suffer a breakdown in relationship. Its easy to divorce especially if you have found someone else. The financial implications are dire.

A friend of mine gave up work years ago. Her ex wanted to concentrate on his career and not take any part in school runs, etc expect on an ocassional basis. He did very well. VP at a very well know FTSE.

She gave up work early 20's. He then found someone else. Said his wife didnt understand the pressures he was under and left a few years ago. She said to me 'there are no jobs I can do being out of the workforce for so long'. His answer was she could work in Tesco.

Whilst this was a high earning man, it could easily be the other way around (but often isnt).

Yes, very depressing but you only have to look at the lone parents thread to see this is very common.

JoinYourPlayfellows Thu 26-Sep-13 16:57:00

"and for the last three years i have been the sole contributor to the joint account"

So you are trying to stiff your wife that has given up her earning potential to look after your children?

It was a clear as day that your post was written by a manipulative, greedy man who wants all the money for himself.

If you aren't married to your "OH" she doesn't have to give you a penny of HER "investment" and if you are, then your investment is an asset of the marriage.

Lweji Thu 26-Sep-13 17:00:51

TBH, I initially thought you were a woman, and my thoughts were that you could split the value corresponding to the years you contributed to, not all. Presumably there was a deposit put in, which should definitely not be split if you kept the proceeds from the sale of your house.

It's not easy, because the one who rented their house presumably profited while was rented.
In contrast the one whose house was lived in didn't have that opportunity.
So, I think the profits from the rent should have been shared between the two, if not the value of the house sale.

It's not clear in my mind if you shouldn't have also shared the value of the house you sold corresponding to the years you were together.

If one was the sole provider for a few years because the other was at home taking care of the children, then it doesn't matter who actually paid into the account, as there was an actual joint contribution towards the family.

Gingernutz Thu 26-Sep-13 17:01:39

JoinYourPlayfellows - thanks for your view, but i am struggling with the part which says:
"It was a clear as day that your post was written by a manipulative, greedy man who wants all the money for himself"
When all of 'my' money is now invested in 'our' house and i do not have a single penny in savings now, plus all of the other comments i have made which no doubt will be the retort for the 'manipulative' bit..
But again, thanks for playing...

HoldMeCloserTonyDanza Thu 26-Sep-13 17:07:14

Why do you care for our opinion when you think we're a load of irrational sexists?

Gingernutz Thu 26-Sep-13 17:10:22

HoldMeCloserTonyDanza - i only think the irrational sexists are irrational and sexist not everyone....stupid is as stupid does, if it ain't you then don't feel aggrieved.

JoinYourPlayfellows Thu 26-Sep-13 17:11:33

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

Gingernutz Thu 26-Sep-13 17:18:09

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

Lweji Thu 26-Sep-13 17:23:18

<feeling very ignored> sad

FFS Ginger can you understand why coming into a mainly female space, you need to play by the rules and be just a little respectful? I didn't walk into the factories I used to go to for work and immediately start shouting the odds.

FWIW, if you think some people will be biased, ignore them. That is the nature of the internet, there are idiots everywhere, even here. Making your OP gender neutral implied all of us are biased. If you think that, don't ask, if you don't, stop being silly and just ask your question honestly and with all the relevant information.

By it's nature AIBU is a little 'hot'. By the nature of the population here, there will be a butt load more women who have been fucked over than the converse. And, if you have spent any time here you will know that some men come on here to goad, mansplain and generally be fuck-nuggets. You aren't one of them? Great.

Loopytiles Thu 26-Sep-13 17:29:52

OP, if you and your DP had concerns like this you should have got legal advice and made an agreement before moving in together and adjusted it when your DP gave up work and as needed.

There's what's legal (if you split up), what's fair (if you split up) and who has access to and makes decisions about your money (while you're together). It's not clear which you / your DP is concerned about.

<strokes Lweji>

Loopytiles Thu 26-Sep-13 17:31:54

Oh and YABU for SHOUTING and witholding relevant information.

Gingernutz Thu 26-Sep-13 17:34:33

sorry Lweji - thanks smile
I agree with pretty much everything you said but regarding profit on the rental of the other house, no the object (for tax reasons) was to pretty much break even and not make profit or extra income that was then taxable.
The point is, i sold that house and the profit from that is about 40% of our costs for the new house, and my partner will be putting in 60% of the costs of the new house. My original question was really (or should have been) if i owned an investment before my partner and i got together and then SOLD that investment 10 years after we got together, not having contributed anything myself financially to it either i might add, should my partner expect to have any of that lump sum?
Many people have said "but you wouldn't have been able to do that unless you moved in to your partners house" but thats not exactly true is it? we could have SOLD BOTH houses and gone 50/50 then but we chose to live where we were instead and pay 50/50 toward everything from then on.
i dont want money (contrary to some posters ideas) i simply was looking for, strangely given the title of the thread, confirmation if i am being unreasonable in not giving any of the investment profit to my OH (again, its moot anyway to a degree, because its not money i can do anything with because it is all needed in the new house!)

Gingernutz Thu 26-Sep-13 17:38:11

MrsTerryPratchett - i havent spent any time here, as i did say earlier this is my first, and likely last, thread.
You dont really do yourself or anyone else here any favours with that last post in my opinion and as i stated earlier and you state yourself, if my implications regarding bias dont apply to you then ignore the implication (weather it was there or not)

Gingernutz Thu 26-Sep-13 17:41:10

Loopytiles - if i typed everything in caps i would understand your petty gripe but really....you know... bigger picture?

Pinkpinot Thu 26-Sep-13 17:48:48

I haven't read everything
But I have a property from before I met dh
Been rented out, no profit

If we split I wouldn't expect him to receive any % from the profits of that sale, and I would expect 50% of the profits made from the house that we bought together

No idea where that stands legally, but that's what I think

But, you have not answered my question:

Why do you feel entitled to a share of your wife's investment? Why not just let her have it, seeing as you are insisting you will be fair.

You say you wont screw her over if you split, but it seems to me you are already trying to screw her over by wanting more out than you put in?

Why is this?

I still think you come across as greedy.

Why did you chose to move into HER house?

Was it bigger?

handcream Thu 26-Sep-13 17:55:57

If I may put from my own point of view which is the only one I really know is 100% correct!

I got married late in life. My DH was keen to have children. I wasnt so sure. He earns 3 times what I do and I am a higher rate tax payer with a very stable job.

There was NO way I was going to give all of that up and expose myself so we agreed that he would do his share. Of course I took a risk - he might have been fibbing but he was very good, he never booked any trips away without checking with me that I was able to cover etc. 16 yrs later it has worked out well. We had a 2nd child because I knew he would keep his promises.

What I think the OP is trying to do is to think 'well if we did split up how can I protect myself'. Quite understandable tbh in these days of high divorce rates. I suspect his DW might be thinking the same.

if my implications regarding bias don't apply to you then ignore the implication Au contraire. Post honestly and don't pay any heed to biased posters.

If you don't like MN, why not post in the 90% of the internet set up for, by and to meet the needs of, men? There is a Dadsnet, you know.

It just pisses me off when people come here and complain about it. There are a bunch of sexist, shitty websites. I just avoid them.

StuntGirl Thu 26-Sep-13 18:07:45

You don't have much of a clue about basic social interaction do you grin

People want details because there are nuances in the details that can change situations, and therefore answers. By being deliberately obtuse you've actually shone a massive spotlight on that lack of details, and made them more noticeable, and obviously more intriguing than the problem you're trying to address. When people deliberately hide information it makes people question why. Don't be mad at Patty for being right, or MrsT for trying to help you.

I think a safety fund is a pretty sensible option for anyone in a relationship, because life isn't a fairytale, but especially the one in the weaker financial position. I suggest you get some legal help to help you navigate this if you can't agree between yourselves.

garlicbaguette Thu 26-Sep-13 18:09:59

Well, no, you couldn't have SOLD both houses without getting somewhere else to live, could you?

If you'd both sold your homes when you got together, and bought a new one, you would presumably have divided the ownership according to who put what in. You'd have agreed between you how to pay the mortgage and bills, then revised that when you decided one of you should stay home with DC.

This has only kicked off because you both decided to live together in her house. Had you done it the other way round, can you honestly say you'd agree with DP that she should keep all the proceeds from her place, after renting it out and living at yours?

Would I be right in assuming her house is bigger/more valuable than your old place?

It's slightly worrying that you can't figure this out sensibly, between you. Are you sure you're ready to get married? Since you asked upthread, btw, all marital assets are owned jointly - that is, each spouse owns all of it (much like equal partners in a business partnership). If you split, assets are divided more or less equally with primary consideration for the children: courts often decide to leave the primary carer in the family home with the children, until the youngest DC reaches adulthood.

I think MmeL had it right earlier on. The big issue is that DP was shafted by her ex, and is understandably cautious about leaving herself vulnerable again. In demonstrating what looks like an attitude that "what's yours is ours, and what's mine is mine," you can't exactly be helping her believe that you're different. You should be able to figure this out sensibly, without emotion but with due respect to her greater vulnerability ...

JoinYourPlayfellows Thu 26-Sep-13 18:10:14

"confirmation if i am being unreasonable in not giving any of the investment profit to my OH"

Yes, YABU.

Because you expect her to give her investment profit to you.

Either you are financially independent, in which casey you have been paying her rent on her property instead of paying your own mortgage.

Or you are one financial unit, in which case you both share all your assets.

In my marriage we do the latter, I would not be interested in a relationship that was based on the former arrangement unless one or both of us had children from a prior relationship.

But under no circumstances would I be happy to be with a man who wanted it both ways - what's mine is his and what's his is his.

I've stopped trying to help now, StuntGirl, I'm grumpy now. grin

garlicbaguette Thu 26-Sep-13 18:13:01

Xpost, Quint. And YY, Stuntgirl, safety funds are a good idea. For both partners and for the children.

StuntGirl Thu 26-Sep-13 18:19:52

To be fair MrsT your help seems like it's falling on deaf ears so I don't blame you!

MmeLindor Thu 26-Sep-13 18:21:01

Stuntgirl talks sense. These inconsequential details are actually the important bits of information, that are required to make a decision. If you only tell half the story, how can you expect to get advice?

I also agree that you have to sit down and talk to your wife, honestly and openly and decide what you both want.

If she would prefer to keep things separate, then sit down with a financial advisor and divvy up your assets.

Don't see it as her not trusting YOU, but of her not trusting the vagaries of fate.

I am actually quite stunned by OPs attitude.

First he moves into her house. He rents his house out, the mortgage is paid down by tenants. He contribute to her mortgage (if he lived elsewhere he would either have a mortgage or pay rent). She has children with him, gives up her career to have these children and looks after them (nursery fees are HIGH, so she saves the family both child care fees, a cleaners fees etc), already leaves herself vulnerable by being a sahm (I reckon she thinks "I am safe, I own my own house at least")

He sells his house. When pooling the funds from both houses, he finds that her investment into the new house will be higher than his, and he kicks off and wants his share because he has funded them while she has gone through pregnancy, birth. SHE has looked after his children.

And this man is trying to convince us that he wont try and fleece her in case they split? When he no longer loves her? He is already trying it on now....confused

What the actual Fuck....

Or have I misunderstood something ?

Gingernutz Thu 26-Sep-13 18:27:42

just because i question peoples impartiality does not mean I am lesser for it.
stuntgirl, the details dont matter really as it is the facts that are pertinant, the rest is emotional guff that , as i expected, has clouded peoples view of the situation anf my motives and intentions.
I'm done now.
Thanks to those with helpful advice and to those who are just nosey baised and bitter, i wish you all that you deserve.
You all know which category you fit into, whether you chose to admit it to yourselves is not my concern.
I'm now off to cancel my 'mumsnet' subscription..It's been...an experience.

How do you know I am not a man?

From your responses in your last post, I can see that your wife would be very wise to

a) insist to keep her 60% share
b) buy a house without you.

garlicbaguette Thu 26-Sep-13 18:31:21

Well, that's another eight minutes I'll never get back ...

garlicbaguette Thu 26-Sep-13 18:31:55

Yup, Quint sad Hope she sees this thread!

nosey baised and bitter? Would that be 'nosy, biased and bitter'? <passive aggressive smile >

handcream Thu 26-Sep-13 18:33:18

I think he is protecting his interests and I suspect she is protecting hers.

Very sad tbh. I actually think the breakdown of marriage is key here over the last 30 yrs. People think it fine to have children BEFORE making the real committment to get married. Its all the wrong way around. There are tons of studies that say children do less well in single parent families. I know its not a popular view but why do people think having children is not the real committment - marriage is.

Prepared to get flamed but relationships without being married have a far higher chance of breaking down....

I dont get how he can on the one hand insist he wont leave her bleeding if he leaves, yet on the other hand insist he gets a share of her assets NOW.

It is not a reasonable request.

StuntGirl Thu 26-Sep-13 18:40:20

OP don't be silly, you didn't get the answer you wanted so you're going to flounce? Come back and listen to some very wise people who are trying to help you out!

The details matter because for example - the three years not paying towards the mortgage. It could have been because the 'OH' was dossing around doing bugger all, or not earning due to illness, studying at university, or because they were lazy and wouldn't look for a job.

As it happens it's because the 'OH' was your wife, who was not financially paying towards the mortgage because by being a stay at home parent she is contributing in another way, namely by supporting you to earn the money you do.

See how the details make a difference? If the reason you'd put all your money into this house was because you were shacked up with a lazy cunt who expected you to work and support her while she did nothing and contributed nothing, believe me you'd have got entirely different answers.

When my children were nursery age (the are 11 and 8 now) so a good numbers of years ago, we paid £900 per month nursery fees for two children part time. I understand fees are a lot higher now.

I assume nobody forced you into parenthood? By being a sahm your wife has not only saved you money, she has facilitated that you can progress your career and your earning potential. She has supported your career ambitions, to the detriment of her own.

In the interests of fairness I am going to admit to nosy.

I agree with StuntGirl it is very important what the details are in this. I know someone whose DH didn't work for years and they had a cleaner and childcare while he did nothing. Not the same as a SAHP doing all the childcare/housework. It is also important what both your feelings are about marriage and divorce. And, whether her house was worth more.

I am inclined to believe that someone who comes on here and asks for advice has their reasons. This smells like a person who wanted AIBU to go a certain way (ammunition from women to argue with DW?) and didn't get what they wanted.

OP, why not write an honest, heartfelt OP, with all the facts, name change and put it in Relationships? See what happens. If the evil nest of vipers attacks you again, you can have your flounce confirmed.

MmeLindor Thu 26-Sep-13 18:48:21

Exactly, Stuntgirl.

And it is a bit rude to flounce without even acknowledging that you made a mistake in not being open about the situation in your OP.

Refoca Thu 26-Sep-13 18:53:24

Ahh, here I was all ready to reply with a sensible answer, and I read ol' Ginger has wandered away...

Just in case...

How about taking initial investments into each house as 'own' then split everything else 50/50...I would say from the point you moved in together, but I'm guessing nothing was valued then and you have to take some pragmatic stance.

Might be 50/50, 60/40...who knows? If it's a joint tenancy it literally will not matter, so insist on tenancy in common to 'protect' the proportions.

Good luck! And please resolve this quickly so you can get on with enjoying the new house :-)

20wkbaby Thu 26-Sep-13 18:57:06

Turn the situation round to imagine you are in your OH's position and they are in yours.

Do you still think it's fair?

If my DH had rented out a property while we both lived in 'my' house and contributed to the mortgage, and he then sold that property I would expect a contribution based on the fact that if I had known this from the beginning I would rather be the person moving in with him rather than vice versa.

UptheChimney Thu 26-Sep-13 19:03:47

Ooo I love the smell of mansplaining in the evening. Give Gingernutz a gold star for mansplaining efforts beyond the call of duty.

We also dont know the sizes of the properties.

What if Gingers property was a 1/2 bed flat, and his wife's property a 3 bed house?

Did she already have children prior to meeting Ginger, seeing that he mentions she has been burnt before? He does not say. .. But this could be the reason why he moved in with her...

Calloh Thu 26-Sep-13 19:08:54

Gingernutz - you've probably gone. But you've re-framed your question. again.

This time you've said if you had a investment (instead of a house) that pre-dated you getting together with your current partner and that neither of you have paid into since you married, would your partner have a right to a share of it when it comes to fruition after your marriage.

Yes she would.

Marriage is sharing assets unless you have previously agreed not to.

If either of you want a safety account then agree it between you in advance otherwise when you married everything became each other's too.

On a practical note, as others have said, the partner who gives up work to look after children stops bringing in money but saves a massive cost. Unfortunately this can leave them feeling financially vulnerable.

You do not sound like you have accepted the huge saving your wife has made the family by not working, you seem to feel that she has not contributed towards the mortgage. If this is true in real life then she may well feel a very real need to protect some cash for herself as you are not acknowledging that she has a right to half your salary.

You don't seem very able to handle not getting the answer you want or viewing it from your partner's perspective.

But you've probably long gone.

nightowlmostly Thu 26-Sep-13 19:10:26

handcream do you not think that maybe it's the other way around? As in, relationships where the people are prepared to marry are more likely to last than ones where they don't make that step? I don't believe that being married is in itself a guard against relationship breakdown, I think that people who decide to get married are more likely to stay together anyway. In general, obviously there will be exceptions.

OP you've gone about this all wrong, as others have said. Be honest and people will try to help, put a new thread in relationships. But it does seem like you don't value the contribution your wife has made by being at home. The emphasis by you of the fact she wasn't paying the mortgage, with no reference to the fact that this is because she was home looking after your children, makes this quite clear.

Maybe have a think about your attitude towards your wife, and have a proper talk to try and sort this out.

pootlebug Thu 26-Sep-13 19:11:23

I am calling you A&B because your pronouns are very confusing.

You happened to choose to live in person A's house and rent person B's house out. You shared the costs of living in A's house, and B's house paid for itself via rental income.

If you had lived in person B's house and rented out person A's....what would have happened then?

JoinYourPlayfellows Thu 26-Sep-13 19:49:20

Just asked DH this question, also gender neutral, as in:

"Say we got together and each owned a proper and one of us moved in with the other and then rented the other house out."

He had a think and said "Well, if you weren't married... then there's an argument that each person should keep the profit from their own house. Or obviously, you could split the profits on each house. Those are your two options."

Then I said, what about a third option whereby the person who moved in got a share of that property because they had "invested" in it, but got to keep all of the profit on their own property.

He looked like this hmm

"Er... no. That's bullshit. If you take that argument they've both been investing in both properties because the rented property could only be rented because of the cohabitation."

Then he said

"Shit, you wouldn't want to be in a relationship with someone who would try to get one over on you like that."

AND he's not even an "irrational sexist"!

Lweji Thu 26-Sep-13 19:59:53

If you are still reading, I'm not sure you really got what I wrote.

And I got even more confused with your explanation.

Calloh Thu 26-Sep-13 20:05:40

Well I'm totally with Join and her DH and everyone else.

I'm really annoyed with this thread, it's got under my skin with all the twisting and turning and I really hope the OP is not so greedy and unappreciative in real life.

JoinYourPlayfellows - Now, that is a reasonable mans response!

K8Middleton Thu 26-Sep-13 22:10:05

Let us know when the article's published. It will be intererrsting to see which scenario you pick although I'm fairly sure the misconceptions about the people, especially women, on this thread will be repeated as fact and bits chopped out as "evidence". There will be no mention of the op's fudging of the truth and dripped information because that doesn't fit.

There is an agenda. We can't win.

You mean we will be mansplained in print as well? <twirls>

Retroformica Thu 26-Sep-13 23:06:03

I think you Both keep the profits from your own houses. Consider what you have paid towards bills etc as normal living costs. Including some rent money - you don't get a share if his profit.

UptheChimney Fri 27-Sep-13 07:30:47

the details dont matter really as it is the facts that are pertinant, the rest is emotional guff that , as i expected, has clouded peoples view of the situation anf my motives and intentions. I'm done now. Thanks to those with helpful advice and to those who are just nosey baised and bitter, i wish you all that you deserve.You all know which category you fit into, whether you chose to admit it to yourselves is not my concern

And this attitude may well be why his wife is looking at protecting her financial interests, particularly after a period of -- according to Gingernutz -- "not contributing" (because bearing & raising children is obviously nowt).

And why many women are sensibly cautious about the personal economic costs of giving up work.

Oh, the mansplaining and arrogance. Delightful!

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