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my ds 7 spend £700 on squirrel nuts

(102 Posts)
Jellybeanz1 Thu 26-Sep-13 07:02:20

We had massive shock when the bills kept coming in on an free ipad game for virtual squirrel nuts. Im delighted to see that on the news this morning that the gaming industry are going to put protection in place by law. We challenged this amount being taken from our account and it was eventually fully recovered ( 2 separate attempts to get it all back). I talked to my db recently and found out his ds had done something similar at young age and he hadn't challenged it. Just wanted to make sure everyone was querying this if it happens to them.

MrsLouisTheroux Thu 26-Sep-13 07:04:58

Block in app purchases in settings?

Crowler Thu 26-Sep-13 07:05:42

So, were the nuts advertised as free but then they charged for them?

FannyMcNally Thu 26-Sep-13 07:08:42

How did the bills keep coming in? After the first one you should have put a stop to it then!

SavoyCabbage Thu 26-Sep-13 07:09:34

I imagine the game was free.

Games that you pay for are better I I have found as they are not trying to sell you stuff in the game.

saintmerryweather Thu 26-Sep-13 07:11:22

i really dont understand why parents arent more careful about monitoring app purchases, there have been plenty of stories about this in the media already

ThePuffyShirt Thu 26-Sep-13 07:11:28

My ds spent about £200 on virtual doughnuts on The Simpsons Tapped Out game.

SoupDragon Thu 26-Sep-13 07:12:26

How did the bills keep coming in? After the first one you should have put a stop to it then!

This.

Block in app purchases in settings?

And this.

sheldor Thu 26-Sep-13 07:14:05

This why i have in app purchase password.Google use your email and password now to make it harder to crack.

NicknameIncomplete Thu 26-Sep-13 07:17:11

I think you were very lucky to get it refunded because it was your own fault that this happened in the first place.

How do people not know by now that if your DCs are playing these games you need to turn off in app purchases?

It's been on the news etc for months, there's no excuse not to know this by now.

kim147 Thu 26-Sep-13 07:22:44

I've just got a Smart Phone and was surprised to see the default setting for the Virtual Wallet was no password / PIN.

The default setting should be to prompt you for a password or to have In-App purchasing set to off.

Luckily DS is obsessed with Pokemon and he has to work hard to earn tokens to upgrade his trainer.

meditrina Thu 26-Sep-13 07:24:46

There are threads like this from time to time.

I hope that knowledge of the need to block inapp purchases is increasing, but it's clear people are still unaware. There's a BBC Breakfast item about this today.

This is an issue with the user, not the game designer/manufacturer (beyond complying with major retailer policy - eg App Store will bar games which do not make it clear in a child's game when you're buying something with real money).

If you think the game breaches those rules, report it as unfit for sale. If however it does make it clear, but as you haven't set the device restrictions to prevent inapp purchases and you're leaving a small child unattended with a game, then it's no-one's fault but your own.

This might be a good time to ask if you update your anti-virus software, and whether you have parental control filters on each device.

SimplyRedHead Thu 26-Sep-13 07:28:47

Sorry - how do you block in app purchases? I've looked in settings but can't see anything.

I've got an iPhone / iPad.

EmmelineGoulden Thu 26-Sep-13 07:33:59

Simply In Settings>General>Restrictions

Champlan Thu 26-Sep-13 07:34:39

I was careful to block in app purchases , but when
I upgraded the iOS on the iPad, it reverted the block without me being aware, until I got the bill.

cindersinsuburbia Thu 26-Sep-13 07:34:46
beachyhead Thu 26-Sep-13 07:35:27

In settings, general and then restrictions... I've only just found it!

Jellybeanz1 Thu 26-Sep-13 07:37:46

I posted as it was relevant to this mornings news/ I wanted to highlight it. Bills came in all at once in separate updates, Squirrel nut purchase £1.50 etc ... My dh was at work and caught up with his messages at work. He then phoned me. This was over 2 years ago and we have since learned how to block! We did feel relieved to have it refunded but the change in the law this morning is there because of incidents like this. I was just shocked my db didn't try to challenge his bill and wondered if others out there had this happen to them. Anyone who thinks they will watch continuously over a 7 year old playing a game isn't in my world.

ClayDavis Thu 26-Sep-13 07:47:26

I'd imagine he must have been left unsupervised for a considerable amount of time to run up a £700 bill £1.50 at a time. I'd consider myself lucky it's just money because potentially there are far worse outcomes than that.

Another poster asked, but I'll ask again, do you have an appropriate level of security on all your devices that are internet connected?

Rooners Thu 26-Sep-13 07:50:36

It isn't that simple so please stop having a go at her.

My child managed to buy several things the other week through Google Wallet which I had NOT activated on his tablet.

I had used it once online about 6 months previously, to pay for something on a website that didn't accept anything else.

They transposed my card details onto the tablet without my permission (I checked settings - it said I had not activated google wallet on ANY device) and also, even though it is password protected to the max, I had not realised that in the small print (where do you even FIND that) is a clause allowing purchases without a password for 30 minutes after the password is put in.

These things are a learning curve. Children are less likely to understand how clicking on certain things is not going to achieve exactly what they think it will (ds clicked on 'buy' to see the prices, not realising it would actually go ahead and buy this crap)

he told me immediately, it was a genuine error and made very easy by the app design. I do believe that some are designed to trick you.

They were using my debit card details though to ask him if he wanted to buy things, and I had never entered them onto the device...it's because it was set up using my gmail account.

I had no idea they could take this info and enable purchases with it on a device you had never used it with.

diddl Thu 26-Sep-13 07:51:40

Does this only happen with ipads?

I always assumedblush that a cc number would be asked for at some point-is this not so?

Rooners Thu 26-Sep-13 07:54:12

Oh and yes it is protected to the max, I am nervous of these things and had done everything I could think of to avoid this scenario - he only buys things using googleplay vouchers, normally.

And the amount he spent was under £10, thankfully.

It is NOT easy to prevent these things from happening, my son is 10 and was in tears at the thought he had done something terrible.

Anyone who is familiar with Facebook's constant changing of policy so that your setting become un-private every so often, without your consent, will know the sort of thing I'm on about.

Google make it very very hard indeed to keep on top of what they are doing.

"I always assumed that a cc number would be asked for at some point-is this not so?" No, it is stored in App store.

We just dont let the kids know the Apple password, which is required to download stuff.

Rooners Thu 26-Sep-13 07:57:32

Btw the games are shit anyway, I didn't really want him to have the tablet in the first place (Diddl - ours is a Nexus) but there is a lot of peer pressure, they all seem to have ipod touch and that sort of thing. My parents got it for him.

I swear at/about it daily.

I let him have it for an hour a day and even that is too much imo. I'd not trust a 7yo with it - well it's not the 7yo that's the issue. These are adult devices complete with all the tricks they usually try on adults.

Now much more limited than he was...we were lucky.

fortyplus Thu 26-Sep-13 07:58:18

If you're prepared to let a 7 year old have unsupervised access to an iPad then you're either irresponsible or naive. There's loads in the news re: grooming and cyber bullying of children as young as 8.

Be thankful that you have learned this lesson without even having to pick up a £700 bill, and be wiser about protecting your child in future.

Take some advice about parental controls and insist that your child is only using the device where you can look over their shoulder from time to time. Get her used to this at 7 and it won't be a problem when she's 13.

Rooners Thu 26-Sep-13 07:58:37

Quint, check the time period for your password though. You may only need to enter it once for it to be not required for another 30 minutes, anything bought in that time doesn't need it.

Not sure, we don't have apple/

ClayDavis Thu 26-Sep-13 07:59:14

I think you can change that setting on google. Buggered if I can remember how though. It has something to do with double layered security. You can then add specific devices. It's a good idea to do that anyway as if some one hacks your gmail account they have access to any cards linked to it. If you set specific devices then if you try to access from any other device it asks for a passcode which is sent at the time of request to a mobile number you have given them.

Pobblewhohasnotoes Thu 26-Sep-13 08:00:16

Surely it asks for a password? Unless anyone is daft enough to let their kids know the password.

Thanks for the tip Rooners, I will check it.

I guess it also does not apply to games you have already downloaded which requires you to get new credit/donuts/diamonds etc as the game progresses?

fortyplus Thu 26-Sep-13 08:01:31

ps don't think grooming and cyber bullying is something that happens to 'those' families - anyone can be a victim. My sons are 18 and 19 and a handful of their friends have experienced it - in one case cyber bullying led to a suicide attempt.

diddl Thu 26-Sep-13 08:02:45

""I always assumed that a cc number would be asked for at some point-is this not so?" No, it is stored in App store."

But that's what I mean-cc details have been entered.

Why is that?

I really don't understand why this keeps happening when it is relatively simple to block in app purchases, password protect or just don't link your card. I have used google wallet before and then removed the details or put a pin on them. glad those who needed to have got their money back but just don't understand how kids are spending hundreds and nobody is noticing until a bill rolls in.

Diddle, if I remember correctly we had to give our card details when opening an account. It has been stored in the app store since we bought the ipad.

At least apple has not has the same problems as the android, their download app has been compromised numerous times and card details lifted.

I am not a big fan of this. hmm

ClayDavis Thu 26-Sep-13 08:20:52

I can't say how it works for apple devices but I think I know how it works on Google/Google Play.

If you link the gmail/google play account and download a paid for app or link a card number to it that card is then linked to both your gmail account and google play account until you actively delete it. If you then go onto another device and download a free app from the google play store using your account it is automatically linked to that card even though the app is free and you haven't used the card on that device. You don't need to enter the card details.

diddl Thu 26-Sep-13 08:25:12

I haven't got an ipad, but I'm pretty sure I've never put any cc details onto my tablet-but can still download free apps.

Ragwort Thu 26-Sep-13 08:34:18

If you're prepared to let a 7 year old have unsupervised access to an iPad then you're either irresponsible or naive. There's loads in the news re: grooming and cyber bullying of children as young as 8

Totally agree with this, I accept that many of you will think I am very old fashioned but I seem to be alone with fortyplus in thinking that young children just shouldn't have access to the sorts of games where you can buy stuff.

NanooCov Thu 26-Sep-13 08:36:14

With regard to apple devices, you must set up an Apple ID to download anything from App Store or iTunes. You must link a means of payment to the Apple ID which is then used any time you buy a paid for app or music from iTunes etc. Whenever you download a new app or paid for content, you will be prompted to enter your password. When you want to make an in app purchase you will be prompted for your password. So don't for your kids your password. As someone mentioned, if you enter your password to make a purchase you won't need to enter again for 30 mins (I suppose to make things like buying multiple individual songs from iTunes easier) so if you have entered your password, don't allow your kid to use the device for the next 30 mins.

Another way of preventing similar things happening is to not link a card as your means of payment but instead just top up your Apple ID periodically with apple gift vouchers. Then if someone gets carried away with purchases, at least it's only the gift card balance that will get depleted and not your credit card/current account. A friend of mine switched to using gift cards (not because if his kids but because his Apple ID had been hacked and there had been fraud).

ClayDavis Thu 26-Sep-13 08:38:01

I think you can download free apps from google play without entering a card. I went for months without linking a card. It's just that once you've downloaded a paid for app on any device I think I think the card is automatically linked to any other device or app which you use that account on.

PeppiNephrine Thu 26-Sep-13 08:38:04

I don't think its fair to blame the companies,they are running a business. YOU linked up your credit card and YOU let your child have free run at the game. I'm not sure why you think its not YOUR problem.

friday16 Thu 26-Sep-13 08:40:10

Out of interest, just how do the people who are surprised to find that free games are riddled with in-app rip-offs purchases think that the producers of the games make a living? Did they think they were cuddly loveable philanthropists giving away sweeties to the children? That worked well for Sparklehorse.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Thu 26-Sep-13 08:40:17

You can turn off the 30mins thing in the Ipsden settings..

YouHaveAGoodPoint Thu 26-Sep-13 08:47:49

Don't let your kid have your password

Set your password lock to immediate

Definitely don't let your kid have your restrictions password

Require an IMMEDIATE password for in app purchases

Block in app purchases

Have your iTunes emails going to a well used email account.

Don't have a credit card associated with your iTunes account - top it up with iTunes vouchers (also better value as you can get deals on iTunes vouchers)

Also, make sure your 'allowed content' tabs in restrictions are suitable for whoever uses the IPad

needaholidaynow Thu 26-Sep-13 09:01:35

This happened to DSD's mum when she was on her mum's iPad and her bill came to about £170. Glad she didn't as us to go halves on it or anything.

I never let DSD go on my IPad because I don't want that happen to us!

mrsjay Thu 26-Sep-13 09:41:49

woman on telly this mornings child had run u a grand bill now i am maybe old and fuddy duddy but are people not checking what their children are doing a one off mistake I can understand but hundreds of pounds worth of is not a one off, maybe get them off the ipads, yes I am being judgy

Rubybrazilianwax Thu 26-Sep-13 09:44:02

We had £400 of golden coins bought. Apple refunded and we learnt a lesson!

quoteunquote Thu 26-Sep-13 10:05:27
DeWe Thu 26-Sep-13 10:05:31

Well £700 at £1.50 a shot is over 450 purchases. Wow!

Rooners Thu 26-Sep-13 10:26:22

People aren't listening. Yes our mistake was only a few quid and sorted quickly.
BUT I had already done, or tried to do most of the things on the lists people are giving here.

I did NOT, EVER enter my card details into his tablet

I used google wallet ONCE online many months before we even bought the tablet. I had NO IDEA that google was going to grab these details and link them to the tablet. I did NOT activate google wallet on anything at all apart from my PC.

(I have now of course shut down google wallet as I didn't really want it in the first place.)

There is no option I can find to get rid of the password free period after it is entered. 30 minutes seems to be standard and obligatory - I keep ds with me after I have entered it so he cannot do anything else but he has learned a lesson from last time anyway, so he would not do it on purpose.

All the blocks I could put on the tablet have been put there from the start. Parental controls on the Nexus are almost non existent.

We bought it on the recommendation of a bloke who posted here - offering to advise parents on technology. He has a blog/website called TariffHound.

Nice bloke but he didn't answer my email about parental controls - I assume because he couldn't find any on the Nexus.

It is all about small print, quite often, and the in app purchases are built to look innocent and they make it very very easy for a child to do, even without intending to - ds came to me crying and panicking, when he bought this stuff, because he knew he needed a password normally and didn't intend to buy anything. It just happened with one click.

It turned out it was in the 30 minute period after I'd let him get a paid for app. (minecraft I think - we use his vouchers he saves up for, NOT a credit card - the only thing I used while setting up the Nexus was my gmail address. NO card details at all.)

It is literally like a minefield.

Rooners Thu 26-Sep-13 10:29:44

Could you tell me where to turn off the 30 minutes, anyone? I don't know what Ipsden is, is that just an apple thing?

CaptainCupcake Thu 26-Sep-13 10:32:01

Roomers have you got a separate user area for your children on the nexus? You can then control what they do and don't have access to. My toddler has his own user area on mine blush

CaptainCupcake Thu 26-Sep-13 10:32:19

Sorry, Rooners

NoComet Thu 26-Sep-13 10:37:26

iPods and kindle fires are easy, but I've no idea how to block DDs sodding galaxy ace, it just takes card details and never asks you to set up a password (fortunately that card is dead now)

Rooners Thu 26-Sep-13 10:40:19

Thanks Captain - no, I don't know how to use the thing myself, it belongs to ds1 so I have not tried that.

Maybe it is worth having a look - thankyou.

Rooners Thu 26-Sep-13 10:40:58

Could you point me at how to set that up at all?

Don't worry if you are pushed for time but would be massively grateful!

ClayDavis Thu 26-Sep-13 10:41:04

I hear you Rooners, the card is linked to the account, not the device. I don't know if Google make that clear enough at the time you enter the card details. I suspect they don't.

I think the only way out of it is to as you say, delete the card details from the account every time you use it. Or to create a separate google play account and gmail to download free apps only and never ever link it to any google account to which a card has been linked.

ClayDavis Thu 26-Sep-13 10:42:08

Or what captain cupcake said. grin

Rooners Thu 26-Sep-13 10:49:10

Thanks Clay.

We didn't have the Nexus when I used the wallet thing. I ordered some tiles from a shop online and it was the required payment system so I used it. I didn't know it would store everything and transfer the info to future devices iyswim.

It's like finding out that you've been making purchases using your Griffin Savers account from 1982.

Rooners Thu 26-Sep-13 10:51:14

Btw it is sneaky as the box comes up for a purchase and it's just the same as the one when you're using your balance. It's just it says 'card number ....' at the bottom in really small writing.

If you haven't added a card to the device it's bloody easy to assume it means you still have some voucher balance left. Very, very underhand really.

havingamadmoment Thu 26-Sep-13 10:58:16

It depends on the ages of the children but at any age over about 5 or 6 I would expect them to know that downloading stuff = money. It does CLEARLY say on most apps when you click to download add ons etc that you will be charged and how much. I always raise an eyebrow at the people you see on tv/papers that have 9 year olds who "accidentally" spent £1000 on in app purchases - yeah right.....totally blameless.

For younger children they should be with you passwords would prevent most purchases in any case.

We have a number of ipads and computers and 5 children and I would be LIVID if any of them took it upon themselves to buy things without asking. I dont think its too much to just say "you are not allowed to buy extra coins etc" and expect them to listen.

CaptainCupcake Thu 26-Sep-13 10:59:49

I am currently trying to ignore the bastard chicory episode of Mr Bloom for the hundredth time so only too happy to help!

Go to settings, under "device" there is a "users" option. In there will be the option to "add new user or profile". Choosing "restricted profile" is a bit like having a user area without administrative privileges on a windows PC. Once you've created it you need to tap the slider icon next to the new profile. You'll get the option to add a name and picture to the profile, but more importantly you can choose (by slider) which apps the user has access to. I'm investigating it again now because I didn't look too closely the first time, just chose the apps I won't let little one near.

Just scrolling down the list, you can take away access to the play store so they can't download any new apps, and also wallet, which I assume would mean no in app purchases can be made!

If you password/pin/picture lock your area it adds extra security.

I have no idea about the 30 min rule, I have never bought an app in the 5 months I've had it so never had reason to check it but I will investigate further.

Hope that helps smile

CaptainCupcake Thu 26-Sep-13 11:00:22

Totally non PA "hope this helps" and smiley there by the way!

Poledra Thu 26-Sep-13 11:02:20

Rooners, have a look here. DH set up our Nexus with separate accounts for the DDs. He is the 'administrator' account so sees all their emails etc without having to access their profiles (though we have access to their profiles also). Pisses me off that he can see mine too, mind angry. Anyway, it means that we can restrict what they can do within their accounts, and any apps they want to download, they have to ask DH and I do it for them.

Rooners Thu 26-Sep-13 12:00:34

Thankyouthankyouthankyou smile

That's all brilliant. I will look as soon as he gets in from school and shows me how to switch it on access 'device'. blush

As an aside it was hilarious when I closed the googlewallet account, and it came up with a huge list of things I'd no longer be able to do if I went ahead - things like 'see what you have bought using google wallet' shock hmm grin

Thanks again, both of you.

Jenny70 Thu 26-Sep-13 12:24:52

Just checked my tablet and it had CC saved from purchase years ago (pre tablet)... and whilst it was password protected, it used the computer login password, which kids know.

So have changed password and finally worked out (with google wallet) how to remove CC... google play should be able to delete stored patyment details... it seems each time you purchase you need to go elsewhere to remove stored details -waiting to catch you out or what?!!

BuskersCat Thu 26-Sep-13 12:39:51

Not 'waiting to catch you' at all. It is useful for many many people. If you are stupid, irresponsible, or naive enough to let a child use a device where the internet is running in the background, where one click can lead anywhere, then quite frankly, it's your own fault.

Rooners Thu 26-Sep-13 12:41:11

Blimey Jenny that is awful. See I told everyone it was sneaky!

There's no way it should be able to use information from before you bought it unless you deliberately link it yourself, when you set the thing up.

I hate google about as much as I hate facebook. I don't use FB either, as you simply can't trust it.

Rooners Thu 26-Sep-13 12:42:38

Buskers that is a hideous post.

BumbleChum Thu 26-Sep-13 12:44:44

well, i think you are not unreasonable OP. I used to be fairly tech savvy, but am no longer, and although I have put settings in place, I clearly don't know about them all. It is quite a minefield, and I can see how people are caught out. I hope I am not in the future, but I don't see it as impossible.

Rooners Thu 26-Sep-13 12:45:20

I expect google to ask my permission before sharing my financial details with a device on which I have not activated this system.

BuskersCat Thu 26-Sep-13 12:48:20

Not at all, it's what I think. Blunt maybe, but true. Why would you allow a 6-9year old alone with an internet enabled device for half an hour or more?

Rooners Thu 26-Sep-13 12:49:00

He is 10.

I think it was uncalled for to use the word stupid.

A massive thank you to the person who pointed out updating to ios7 changes your in app purchasing setting. Mine, which was set to off, had been reset to on. It never occurred to me to check!

Bogeyface Thu 26-Sep-13 13:09:17

Sorry but I agree with Buskers

We have various devices in the house and the kids are only allowed to use the tab under strict controls. No one, not even H, knows the apple password (I change it every 3 months) and there has never been a card attached to my google account in anyway. If I did need to do that then I would use my "internet" debit card that I use for online stuff where I credit my account with just enough to cover the purchases I have made in order to protect myself against fraud.

I really do have limited sympathy when it is a well known issue and is easily prevented. Most of these games dont need an internet connection to play them, just to purchase on them, so just disable the internet connection when the child is on it! Always assuming you havent got your password saved in the device and havent told the child because no one would be that stupid, would they.....?

Rooners Thu 26-Sep-13 13:39:54

It's only a well known issue because people know about it...I didn't, and the OP was trying to spread awareness and has got a massive bollocking for her trouble.

It's not easily preventable unless you are well on top of the things Google or whatever other company does...if you are a normal user thesethings may not occur to you.

I would not HAVE the internet if it wasn't completely obligatory nowadays. Telling me I'm stupid because I don't spend hours reading the small print about matters that should be intuitive is very bloody unfair.

PatPig Thu 26-Sep-13 13:50:41

I don't think children can be liable for these purchases if it's done without the cardholder's consent.

Jenny70 Thu 26-Sep-13 13:51:57

The reason I think it is "waiting to catch you out" is that I have never put CC details into my tablet, never purchased anything with it. But it has accessed by CC details through google from a purchase made yrs ago. I find that devious.

Also, google play has no option to remove payment details, you have to use a separate program to remove them... so any purchase you then need to follow with a second program so the details are not stored by google play.... I find that a trap for people forgetting to clear their details each time.

It is not just a child that can defraud your account, you can have the device stolen and the payment settings used... I just think there should be a clear box which you can opt into or out of saying "store these details for future use" like many websites do. If you are confident and want the convenience of it being stored, then great. If not, simply uncheck the box....

Bogeyface Thu 26-Sep-13 14:07:29

I didnt see it as a massive bollocking, just that people were saying that she was responsible for supervising her child and as she didnt, she is partly to blame for what happened. £700 is a lot of money, this wasnt just a one off so it calls into question not only how long was he on this game unsupervised, but what else was he accessing without the OPs knowledge? This isnt just about the money but about a childs safety when accessing the internet.

And suggesting that it is unfair for saying you should have read the small print...well you should! Why is it that people will scour an Ebay ad for an item costing £5 for every tiny detail, but will happily tick the "I confirm I have read and agree to the T&C" box when putting in their CC details on the internet without so much as glancing at them?

I am sorry but if you are going to be so blasé about your financial security then you must accept a level of responsibility when a company or individual takes advantage of that. I am not saying that what they do is right, but I am saying that if you dont take steps to protect yourself, and that includes properly supervising your child, then you have to take a share of the blame.

JCDenton Thu 26-Sep-13 14:35:17

I can see both sides. While there's something to be said for restricting or even banning kids who aren't old enough to know better than be wary of these games (I wouldn't allow them to be installed on my device tbh) some of them are rather cynical.

There are plenty of cheap devices that play actual games instead of 'free' ipad games that aren't far off being malware.

hardboiledeggsandnuts Thu 26-Sep-13 14:58:49

letting young kids play unsupervised on ipads etc is just asking for trouble. when I was a child I had to make do with just a zx spectrum until I was 14.

Rooners Thu 26-Sep-13 15:59:26

'but will happily tick the "I confirm I have read and agree to the T&C" box when putting in their CC details on the internet without so much as glancing at them?'

There wasn't one as far as I remember.

If you are saying that there is something wrong in this set up though, and that not protecting ourselves from this makes us partly to blame then that is a bit, well, victim blaming isn't it?

diddl Thu 26-Sep-13 16:52:16

"If you are saying that there is something wrong in this set up though, and that not protecting ourselves from this makes us partly to blame then that is a bit, well, victim blaming isn't it?"

Possibly depends if you think that an ipad is for adults tbh, & not for kids to play on.

pianodoodle Thu 26-Sep-13 17:00:59

When the kids buy something this way, are they aware they're doing it?

Bogeyface Thu 26-Sep-13 17:07:02

I am so sick of the phrase "Victim blaming" being thrown about when the phrase should be "expecting people to take responsibility for their own actions"!

No, the system isnt perfect so it makes sense to protect oneself against any possible abuse of it.

We know there are thieves out there, so we take all reasonable precautions against them. If you leave your front door wide open and you get robbed then your insurance wont pay out, because they expect you to take certain measures to protect your property. This is the same. The OP didnt take reasonable measures to make sure her account couldnt be accessed by a child, so she bears some level of responsibility for what happened.

Blaming a woman for being raped is victim blaming. Saying it in this instance is just not wanting to accept that you fucked up and are now paying the price.

BuskersCat Thu 26-Sep-13 17:30:12

bogey said everything I wanted to, far more eloquently than I ever could.

Rooners Fri 27-Sep-13 08:06:38

'The OP didnt take reasonable measures to make sure her account couldnt be accessed by a child, so she bears some level of responsibility for what happened.'

It depends what you call reasonable measures and this has been my point all along - which you seemed to agree with in part just before my last post:

'I am not saying that what they do is right'

Rooners Fri 27-Sep-13 08:08:50

In fact it was ME who clicked on the 'buy now' box the first couple of times, and entered my password (which ds doesn't know) without realising it had somehow garnered my card details without my consent - only a couple of quid, and I took responsibility for this obviously but it was still set up in a way that fooled me as an adult.

I thought it was still using his voucher credit. I'd no reason to think it would be doing anything else.

kali110 Fri 27-Sep-13 12:24:58

Wouldn't let my child on my phone unsupervised. Think it was the moms fault and shes lucky she didn't have to pay the bill.
You can remove the in app purchasing of set it so after you've made the purchase there isn't a time delay after where it doesn't ask for the password again.

ThisWayForCrazy Fri 27-Sep-13 12:44:18

You have to put your apple password in on mine to buy anything. My kids wouldn't be able to do that.

Well the teenager would, but he wouldn't do it.

WhizzerAndChips Fri 27-Sep-13 12:47:38

Totally agree with this, I accept that many of you will think I am very old fashioned but I seem to be alone with fortyplus in thinking that young children just shouldn't have access to the sorts of games where you can buy stuff.

I don't think you're old fashioned, I'm exactly the same. What on earth do young children need access to things like Ipads etc for anyway with apps that can buy stuff?
WTF's wrong with Leappad type stuff, you know, actual things that are suitable for children?!
Unfettered access and left to their own devices on internet/apps type stuff is asking for trouble.

Rooners Fri 27-Sep-13 13:01:39

I don't disagree that littler children might be better off with a leappad or similar however try foisting one of those on your average 10yo and you will not be taken seriously.

There is a gap in the market for devices that are quasi-adult in their format but totally suitable for pre-teen children.

When we got him the nexus, for his 10th birthday, it was against my better judgment.

My parents wanted to buy him it - it was all he talked about for months and months before that, as several of his friends had an ipod touch and he wanted to be able to discuss the various apps and games with them.

I agree a lot of it is pointless for someone his age - it is awash with shite, especially a lot of the games (he asks me every time he downloads anything - he is never alone with it for very long) and he was upset and concerned when he bought something on it that he didn't think he could/wasn't trying to buy.

THIS is my point - it almost seems set up to test our competence and our cynicism. It tricked me twice before the one where he bought something.

It just isn't user friendly - and THAT is the problem, the deliberate attempts to get you to buy stuff in any way they can, even using fairly devious means.

I admit I have hated the nexus from the start and am considering taking it away completely - though I don't know what I'd do with it, I don't want it for myself either after my experiences with google.

Anyway as the thread is indeed about a 7yo child I will leave you to it but just thought another perspective might be interesting to some.

And if anyone can link to anything that a 10yo would embrace in this field then please do so...!

friday16 Fri 27-Sep-13 13:22:49

It just isn't user friendly - and THAT is the problem, the deliberate attempts to get you to buy stuff in any way they can, even using fairly devious means.

What's "it" in this context? The free games? How do you think the developers make money?

If you buy games and then they attempt to dun you out of more money, I think you have grounds for complaint. But I don't think it's at all reasonable to complain that things you got free try to make money by other means, any more than it's reasonable to complain that ITV has adverts or "free" holidays tend to involve being bludgeoned into buying a timeshare.

I admit I have hated the nexus from the start

So why did you buy it? The Nexus is possibly the worst choice for end users: it's an unmediated Android experience, intended really for developers so that they can run the latest release of the operating system without waiting for the tablet vendor to release their version of it.

try foisting one of those on your average 10yo and you will not be taken seriously.

What's that MN cliche? Oh yes: "No is a complete sentence". It seems being are willing to bandy it around in all sorts of contexts, but not to their children.

Rooners Fri 27-Sep-13 14:22:16

'It' is Google. I have explained why I think this, I don't want to again.

I've also explained why I bought it - it was recommended by someone who advertised his website on here and offered to advise parents on tech choices for their children.

Also, I wanted my son to be able to talk with his peers about the things they are interested in. I didn't want this device but I thought with proper, intuitive use it might be a good compromise - more use than an ipod touch, maybe for homework minecraft (so he isn't using my PC all the time) and so on.

He's never run into that sort of trouble on my PC. He's been using it for years.

I walked into the purchase after a fair bit of research but still found myself blindsided by the way it operates.

Yes, kick me when I'm down by all means - I have admitted it was a mistake. I'm not disputing that, but I am disputing that the people in charge of google aren't charlatans.

Rooners Fri 27-Sep-13 14:24:06

and I can CERTAINLY say no to him.

Rooners Fri 27-Sep-13 14:29:06

This is the website and we had an email correspondence.

He was a lovely guy. I think he meant well. I thought here was the best place to get recommendations for stuff I didn't know much about.

We all make mistakes.

Rooners Fri 27-Sep-13 14:31:07

'So why did you buy it? The Nexus is possibly the worst choice for end users: it's an unmediated Android experience, intended really for developers so that they can run the latest release of the operating system without waiting for the tablet vendor to release their version of it.'

I imagine you know a bit about this subject, but please don't assume everyone does. Obviously if I had I'd not have bought it...

and the game was pre installed. It's now been unequivocally uninstalled.

friday16 Fri 27-Sep-13 14:46:24

He's never run into that sort of trouble on my PC. He's been using it for years.

PCs: shared devices, and in 2013 most people have twigged that separate user accounts are a good idea.

Tablets: personal devices, without any serious concept of "users". Android is acquiring something vaguely like multiple users ("restricted profiles") but there are all sorts of implementation issues.

If you lent someone your phone, would you be surprised that they were able to read your email and look at the contacts in your address book? Remember: tablets are big phones, not small laptops. The operating systems are phone operating systems (with the exception of the Windows Surface, but that's hardly mainstream).

You complain about what happened to you "not being user friendly", but I think the equivalent mechanism in Apple-land is exactly user-friendly: I enter my credit card details once, and can then buy content on my laptop, my iPhone and my Apple TV without needing to re-enter the details. Now that's not what you want, because (I assume) you want to be able to have your son use a tablet registered in your name but not be able to do things that you can. But, I'm afraid, you're in the minority.

AgentZigzag Fri 27-Sep-13 15:38:34

Getting a bit of a panning there Rooners? grin

I'm generalising, but I think you can only understand technology vs DC situation when you've actually got them in the (roughly) 8-15 age group. (I know there must be parents on the thread who do have them in the age group and have got a handle on the technology thing, but that doesn't go for everyone)

Having children who are older and younger means you're only imagining what you'd allow them to do, maybe missing the unique situation the impact technology as it is now can have on DC/social relationships.

I could decide to not let 12 YO DD have any of it, or let have it all unrestricted, but neither are realistic. So I try to set boundaries of checking what she's up to on it, keep reminding her of internet safety rules, be interested in what she's up to on it.

But I'm totally guessing at what I should do, and how I should even go about doing it. There isn't a right answer because we've never had computers so embedded in our lives.

It's not Rooners being lax and everything would be OK if we all just keep on the ball. There are new things on the market every day, you can't possibly keep up with it all even with an interest in this kind of thing!

We got into hot water when DD first got her phone and it was a wake up call, but even knowing what I know now, DC and the internet can be like trying to pick up mercury with a fork.

Rooners Fri 27-Sep-13 17:23:39

Thanks, Agent. I needed someone to back me up and you have done it so well!

Friday - I get what you are saying.

We don't have separate user accounts on the PC. I think the sort of games on the nexus are kind of unique to that format, not the stuff we use on the PC - or certainly not the stuff I've seen him want to use on the PC.

I'd actually be really blimming surprised if I lent someone my phone and they could see my email because it's an old k800i and I've never looked at email on it let alone sent any...or accessed the internet from it.

I don't know much about smart phones and this is why I was so, so careful in setting ds up to use the nexus only with vouchers. I had seen a couple of threads about in app purchases and thought, ha, I shan't even enter my card details on it - only voucher codes.

Seems like there was a way around that for ye olde money hungry google bastards.

Anyway. Please try not to judge too much. I'm not a thicko. I have an IQ above 140 according to my mum but technology isn't something I am ahead of...I try to keep on an even footing with the stuff I come up against by choice though, because that's just what you do isn't it - and on this occasion I failed.

NanooCov Tue 01-Oct-13 11:21:18

I've read the whole thread and some interesting points have been made on both sides of the argument. But do me a favour and please please stop blaming Google! You've singularly failed to recognise how Apple ID and Google accounts work. The device did not grab your details. You GAVE the device your card details when you set it up with your gmail account which is linked to every other Google functionality you use including Google Wallet. Surely that's not a difficult concept to grasp? And please don't use the "I'm not tech savvy" argument as a shield. If you're allowing your kids to use technology (and I agree it is difficult not to) then you need to educate yourself.

Mckayz Tue 01-Oct-13 11:25:10

I have never worked out how this happens. My iphone and ipad ask for my password everytime I try to buy anything. I have not set anything up that is how they came.

So unless you tell your children your password I don't see how they can run up these bills.

YouHaveAGoodPoint Tue 01-Oct-13 21:33:28

The default factory setting on the iPhone/ipad used to be to ask for a password before a purchase but to NOT ask for it again for any purchases made within the following 15 minutes. It was also set up to ALLOW in-app purchases.

Ios7 default is to always ask for a password and to not allow in app purchases about bloody time

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