To tell dd she can't go on school trip

(56 Posts)
EvaBeaversProtege Fri 20-Sep-13 08:16:04

Dd (11) has already been on one residential this term. It was a class bonding trip as she has just started yr8 in a new school.

We had to pay £30 for the trip, even though it was labelled a 'residential' they didn't stay overnight, we're home by 4pm.

She came home last week, said she'd joined a sports team & as part of the bonding they had been asked on a residential. Same place, same cost, just with different people.

At that time I told her if she wanted to go she would have to do mOre chores in the house to earn the cost as we've been paying money left, right and centre for the last three weeks.

She agreed.

Day one, no chores, too much homework.
Day two, only one (unload dishwasher) and she didn't put the dishes away
Day three, again, too much homework hmm yet when I enter the study she's glued to YouTube.

Anyway, in my mind she didn't keep her end of the bargain, but yesterday it all hit the fan.

She has a mental block re: maths. Says she can't do it, hates it, her maths teacher 'hates her' and gets her name wrong all the time (have said teacher has so many new names to learn, cut her some slack)

But it's no coincidence that DH is amazing at maths, part of his job etc... So yesterday when dd was saying "daddy you'll have to do my maths for me, I font understand it" I said l

EvaBeaversProtege Fri 20-Sep-13 08:18:48

Shit, pressed too soon!!!

I said no, she doesn't listen in glass as she just knows dh will show her, she needs to take responsibility.

She yelled shut up mammy, just shut up!!!! To my face,

I told her she wasn't going on the trip. I was due to pay it today, but I wouldn't give her the money this morning.

I told her at 11 she needs to see all her actions have consequences.

Dh disagrees, he said we agreed she could go & then I moved the goalposts.


daftdame Fri 20-Sep-13 08:24:06

I don't think she should have to 'earn' her school trips at age 11. Set boundaries regarding what she can agree to without your consent.

The homework is a separate issue. She may be genuinely finding it difficult. If your husband can support her learning without doing the work for her for example show how to work out the same sort of problem but with different quantities, that may help.

Chores again IMO should be a separate issue. Look at her timetable and work out what doesn't take long and get her to do that. 5 or 10 minutes should not eat in to her time too much.

Shakirasma Fri 20-Sep-13 08:26:08

No YANBU, you made a conditional agreement and she failed to meet those conditions.

As for speaking to you the way she did, that needs nipping in the bud and I think you are quite right to make her see there are consequences for unacceptable behaviour.

You and your DH need to have a good chat and make sure you both sing from the same hymn sheet. Consistency is essential for clear boundaries. DD must be shown that she cannot divide and conquer.

DameDeepRedBetty Fri 20-Sep-13 08:26:31

Eh? Does DH understand that the trip was conditional on certain chores etc being performed, and those chores were not?

The rest of it's window dressing, yes she's being a pain right now, but being a pain/not being a pain isn't what the bargain was about.

You set a rule, she's failed to obey, end of.

Wowserz129 Fri 20-Sep-13 08:28:02

Personally if she just joined a sports team and all the other team mates were going on this 'team bonding' day, I would let her go. I think its a but harsh to not let her go but I would make sure when she got back things were done housework wise. Maybe she does find math difficult?

Mama1980 Fri 20-Sep-13 08:28:24

Yanbu you set conditions and she didn't meet them. At 11 she can easily understand that.

Plus if my children had spoken to me like that it would have been a straight no regardless.

cory Fri 20-Sep-13 08:29:29

Have to say I agree with daft. Separate issues. If you genuinely find the trips too expensive, you will have to tell her that. But don't make it related to school performance.

The maths- if someone has a mental block, then telling them they need to listen in class isn't going to solve it. You're not inside her head, you can't possibly know if she is perhaps listening and failing to understand it. If your dh is good at maths he should sit down and teach her.

My dd had a mental block about maths, mainly due to missing classes. We got a friend to tutor her, solved the problem in no time. But no amount of telling her off or punishing her would have done it.

YANBU and she needs to learn now that she can't make a bargain with you and then not hold up her end and still expect to get what she wants, that makes for one spoilt and entitled little madam. Your Dh should be backing you up and telling her no just for the way she spoke to you, that would loose all kinds of nice things in my house.

mynewpassion Fri 20-Sep-13 08:30:35

If your dh can do a better job explaining it let him. He shouldn't do it for her though.

That's a different issue from the contract you made with her regarding the trip. Separate. So you combining them is moving the goal post.

The rudeness should not be tolerated.

Groovee Fri 20-Sep-13 08:31:11

Actually, yes I think you were right to do conditions for a school trip so soon after another one.

My dd came home with a trip to New York, we agreed but she's turned it down now as her friend had conditions and by day 2 had completely failed to meet them.

These trips all mount up and it's fair enough to say no if it gets too much or if the child expects that they can just go on them.

For maths practice try getting her on it's free and they cover just about everything.

BrokenSunglasses Fri 20-Sep-13 08:32:39

YANBU to stop her from going on the trip after you made an agreement that she didn't stick too, but I don't think you should have made an agreement like that in the first place.

She's only 11, and she's started at a new school when everyone else has already had a year to bond. She needs the opportunity to be involved as much as possible, so I wouldn't have made a trip like that dependent on behaviour, the fact that she's joined a sports team is good thing.

Sometimes they do get too much homework to want to do much else when it's finished after a day of school as well. If she's watching YouTube when she's meant to be doing homework then that's not good, but if her homework is done well I'd focus on that.

Did you spell out to her exactly what she needed to do and then encourage it, or did you just say more chores?

drinkyourmilk Fri 20-Sep-13 08:35:19

I think there are two different issues, the maths, and her behavior.

Wrt her behavior last night, unacceptable and there would be consequences.
Wrt the maths, I would let your dh help her understand. Why on earth would you think its ok to stop her father helping? Maybe she isn't paying attention in class, or maybe she genuinely doesn't understand. Unless you are present you will never know. If you are concerned, then maybe her dad could only be available during her favorite tv program or something? That way she would be less
likely to be simply acting out.

FlutterShyPinkiePie Fri 20-Sep-13 08:36:50

For what it's worth, I had a mental block re maths, still do actually. I tried so hard in class, had times tables pictures all over my wall, nothing I or my teacher did helped.
My father was fantastic at maths, it was only when he started to coach me I scraped past my exam, it made all the difference.
I think YABU

Sirzy Fri 20-Sep-13 08:38:40

How do you know she doesn't listen in class? If she struggles perhaps she just needs that extra bit of help to do it? I see nothing wrong with parents helping with homework - infact it is great that he is helping.

EvaBeaversProtege Fri 20-Sep-13 08:39:02

Sorry, I need to run to work here, but just quickly:

Re: maths block - this girl just came top of her y7 class in the transfer test, she got 2 marks less in her maths than her English.

I understand dd, she couldn't be bothered going her own maths homework & thought her dad would just do it for her.

I usually dont make her 'earn' trips, but the other one was just last week & it's a good bit if money for one child.

The trip isn't essential.

When I told her she wasn't going on trip she asked if she still had to do the chores!!!

I'll be back this evening. Thanks to advice (both sides!) so far.

geekgal Fri 20-Sep-13 08:39:56

I agree with daftdame that there are a few things you're conflating here. When you said " in my mind she didn't keep her end of the bargain" did you actually tell her that? Because if you didn't she's not to know. I don't agree that 11 is too young to learn you have to earn your keep (essentially that's what chores are) but because she's only 11 it won't necessarily be obvious to her that she's done a bad or incomplete job unless you tell her.

I think the trip now though should probably be off but not sure to the lack of chores, she screamed at you to shut up right in your face! There's no WAY a kid of mine would get that trip after that. She's 11, not 2, she needs to know actions have consequences. That's not moving goalposts, it doesn't really have anything to do with the chores, she's being punished for misbehaving. So YANBU (although not about the chores, you should probably still have told her as she was going along that she wasn't doing them properly to be strictly fair...)

Bluebell99 Fri 20-Sep-13 08:41:15

I like my children to have new experiences and think residential trips are good for their independence so if I can afford it and they want to go, they can go. I don't think it should be dependent on on chores or Maths homework, and yes, your dh should show her not do it, but your comment to her about listening in class is unhelpful. Maybe she takes after you rather than your dh, and finds Maths difficult to take on board.

Merrylegs Fri 20-Sep-13 08:42:22

But she is taking responsibility for her maths in a way. She is telling you she doesn't understand it. She is telling you she is struggling. Her solution was to ask her dad for help. That's a very good solution. Ok, he shouldn't do it for her but she has a great resource there that she can use.
Who knows how chaotic the classroom is and at what pace the teacher is going?

Shouting at you was Not On though obviously.

livinginwonderland Fri 20-Sep-13 08:42:45

I think you seem to be linking lots of unrelated things together here.

WRT to the maths - lots of people struggle with maths. Like your DH, my dad was great at maths and it really helped to have him go over things with me before I did my homework. It really helped me understand things. I think YABVU to not let your DH help his DD with homework! I think her outburst was down to frustration - she knows her dad can help and you basically said "no, DD, you have to struggle alone" which is v. unfair imo.

WRT to the trip - could you not just give her a list of chores that need to be done by X date in order for her to be able to go on the trip? Saying "do more chores" isn't really a goal for an 11 year old. Give her a checklist, and tell her she needs to complete the entire thing in order to go.

Merrylegs Fri 20-Sep-13 08:44:06

Oh, I have seen all the double posting on here and now I have managed to do it too - first time ever. How does that happen?!

BrokenSunglasses Fri 20-Sep-13 08:45:27

Of course she asked if she still had to do the chores.

You made the chores related to the trip, and now you've said she can't go on the trip. So it naturally follows that she shouldn't have to do them anymore.

If chores are part of what she has to do in life anyway, she wouldn't have asked.

thebody Fri 20-Sep-13 08:45:33

er at 11 she shouldn't have to help pay for school trips. that's harsh in my book.

her dad helping her with maths homework, yes why not, that's what dads do.

re her rudeness yes not in but she's 11 and probably about to start her periods.

you will need to cut her some slack over the next few years as hormones kick in or your house will be a battle ground.

mynewpassion Fri 20-Sep-13 08:45:43

Chores not homework was the deal.

kelda Fri 20-Sep-13 08:45:53

If she has jsut started secondary school, that is a big change for her. I'm sure she is getting more homework and also different homework.

Maybe she did find maths easy in primary but what she is doing now is probably very different.

I wouldn't ahve asked her to do chores at this time. I think she needs to settle into school first, get used to the new work and concentrate on homework. And any time left over, she needs to relax.

Either you can afford to pay for the trip, or you can't. I wouldn't make it conditional on anything this time.

mynewpassion Fri 20-Sep-13 08:46:50

Were you clear on what "more chores" mean?

Crowler Fri 20-Sep-13 08:51:28

I don't agree with making her earn this trip, unless out of financial necessity. It's part of the school day - it's not like (for example) a ski trip.

That being said, I would be battening down the hatches. She should not be telling you to shut up at 13 - imagine what that looks like at 16.

diddl Fri 20-Sep-13 08:56:15

I don't agree with her earning the trip either tbh.

You've either got the money or not!

How does her doing chores make money??

Let her dad help her with maths!

We were never asked to do chores above homework-& my teens still aren't tbh.

Disconnect the telly in the study??

But I agree that she spoke to you appallingly & there would be sanctions for that.

FrauMoose Fri 20-Sep-13 08:58:43

If children are normally quite able at a subject, it can really throw them when they don't understand. (This could be about a new teacher, a new syllabus, or simply a different topic that require a whole new set of skills.)

Your daughter sounds unhappy. It is very trying when unhappiness comes across as challenging behaviour. My approach is simultaneously to say that particular words or actions aren't acceptable, but that it's understandable to feel frustrated. I think it is a lot easier to sort out and minimise difficult behaviour if the child feels you are on their side. Can they explain why maths has become difficult. Perhaps after your partner has helped her, he will have some insight into this?

How is she getting on at the new school? Why did she change 1 year after the upheaval of transferring from primary to secondary, and is she able to keep in touch with friends from her old school? Has the whole family moved because of work etc?

And you sound worried about money. Schools should be open to parents paying by instalments - and should be willing to discuss how trips are costed, and why they think they benefit the children's learning. Usually the phrase 'voluntary contribution' is used.

I've sometimes told my daughter that I'll pay for a particular trip, but that it will mean there is less for other treats/non-essentials.

geekgal Fri 20-Sep-13 09:01:03

Maybe my husband and I are from a different planet or something but chores should be done regardless of time of year, time of month, or to earn something or nothing! 11 is plenty old enough to have daily chores, and if you have to pay extra for a day trip it's not a regular part of her schooling so it's not a necessity. I was brought up in the US, lots of kids had actual paying jobs at age 11, and they still had chores at home, maybe that's why they rule the world...

ivykaty44 Fri 20-Sep-13 09:03:35

When I told her she wasn't going on trip she asked if she still had to do the chores!!!

you are being outsmarted by an 11 year old

your dd is smart and you want her to do well, you set some rules about if you go on the trip you have to do chores, you then changed the rules and made it homework as well.

it is fine to set rules, but think about the rules before you set them - will they work, liek your dd has worked out, now the chores don't have to be done as she is not going on the trip

don't change the rules half way through the process - it is just unfair and means that the rules are not real rules at all as your dd still may not get to go if she follows the rules as the rules may change

if your dd went on a trip last week and it is to much money to spend on a trip this week, then say so and say you can't do both.

Actions do have consequences, if you don't do your homework you get a detention. One chore one action. You have given several actions and frankly to many for one very big carrot and at this age it is far to much carrot for to many actions and it has failed miserably

ivykaty44 Fri 20-Sep-13 09:10:13

geekgal - in the UK it is hard to get a job until you are 16 due to insurance, shops etc will not and are not allowed to employee people if they are not insured to work as it is against the law.

daftdame Fri 20-Sep-13 09:24:23

On another note if you want to test how genuine her difficulty with homework is, if you really think she is wrapping her Dad round her little finger, why not offer to go in and see her maths teacher with her to get to the bottom of the issue?

In any case if her dad cannot help ie show her how to do the work, not do it for her, you will have to do this anyway.

geekgal Fri 20-Sep-13 09:26:22

I'm aware of that but chores are set by parents, not employers - it just generally makes for a better work ethic later in life, most kids I know who had them didn't have such a nasty shock when they left home as to what it all entailed! I truly believe chores are as important as school, it teaches you how to look after yourself, schedule tasks, the importance of cleanliness, even managing budgets when they get older and you task them with doing the weekly shop! I had to do chores, I didn't get any rewards for it, it was just something that I had to do, I want to make sure my kids realise that too.

But this is about the OP, and I think you're right that she needs to decide what she should be doing first and then try to stick with it, it means there is less chance of any kind of backlash from a stroppy preteen who is clever enough to pick holes smile

SanityClause Fri 20-Sep-13 09:29:55

IMO, household chores are things we all have to do. they are jobs the household needs done to allow it to run smoothly. So, they shouldn't be used to "earn" things.

WRT the trip, it doesn't seem to make sense that she gets it by doing work. What money is saved by her doing household chores that would free it up to do the trip?

Or is what you are saying "If you take it less for granted that I will do all the household chores, I will feel much more likely to want to put my hand in pocket to provide you with extras like school trips."

In which case, say it! Let her know her actions have consequences. She wants to sit watching YouTube, rather than doing a few household chores? Fine, but you will be less likely to want to fund school trips, if she's already had the evening off to watch YouTube, while you were scurrying around loading the dishwasher.

As regards the maths, I think it is lovely at your DH can and will help her. Thats what parents do. But perhaps you need to talk to him about making sure he shows her, but leaves her to do the work, if you are concerned that he will just do it all for her.

Yesterday, DS told me he had 12 really hard maths questions. We looked at the first one. He realised that he did understand how to do it, and that the rest were all the same. We discussed it for a bit, then he got down to them and finished them in no time.

Crowler Fri 20-Sep-13 09:31:15

I totally agree geekgal. I am guilty of not imposing many chores on mine, because they do a horrible job.

Apart from emptying the dishwasher, I find it hard to find jobs they're capable of.

kali110 Fri 20-Sep-13 09:34:10

Yanbu. You know your dd told her she had to do chores. She didnt. She didnt do her homework(maybe she was struggling,) but youve pointed out that you feel she may have been trying to get your dh to do it.
Get the feeling she knew she was in the wrong and threw a tantrum..
After screaming in your face i def would say no trip thats completely unacceptable. There will allways be trips, but agree she needs to know there are consequences of her actions..

kali110 Fri 20-Sep-13 09:38:20

Plus i dont see anything wrong with doing chores in return to go on a trip. She'll learn she has to work for things she wants.
Btw out of interest is it that hard now for a 16 to get a job?i got one as soon as i turned 16 .

Sirzy Fri 20-Sep-13 09:40:24

'chores' should be a general part of being a member of the household though not in return for being able to go on a school trip. Children need to learn (IMO) that the jobs need doing so you do them not you only do it if there is something in return.

wigglesrock Fri 20-Sep-13 09:44:10

I don't think YABU. This particular trip isn't part of the regular school day - it's an additional trip linked to a school sports team. Additional trips = having to be earned.

She should be doing jobs around the house anyway. Fwiw I was terrible at maths, I never got it, it was always a struggle for me. My dad's really good at it, he used to do my homework with me on a seperate piece of paper, talk me through it, take the paper, bin it and then I had to do the homework in my book (no computers in my day smile ).

I have a lot of sympathy for your dd re the maths, but not about shouting shut up.

whatever5 Fri 20-Sep-13 09:45:08

If she is 11, isn't she in year 7, not year 8? Has she just started secondary school? I think that you're being far too harsh. Starting a new school is stressful and being in a new environment is tiring. Adding chores during the week on top of homework at this stage is unreasonable full stop IMO.

Your DH shouldn't be "doing" her maths for her but it would certainly be a good idea to help her understand it better. I can't understand why you would stop him doing that. You're not doing her any favours.

daftdame Fri 20-Sep-13 09:45:58

geekgirl I actually found it easier when I left home. No nasty shocks, parents arguing over the standard of washing up / cleaning the my room or kitchen. No telling me to do stuff when I needed to study.

I lived in student accommodation and standards could get quite low grin. We all managed though and no one got ill through it.

daftdame Fri 20-Sep-13 09:47:22

Ditto cooking. Liked the food much better actually.

geekgal Fri 20-Sep-13 10:43:11

Yeah, my youthful cleaning skills were pretty shoddy initially, especially when I wanted to get it done quickly so I could go and listen to tapes in my bedroom (wow am I old!)!! grin

ivykaty44 Fri 20-Sep-13 10:47:27

geek I was brought up in the US, lots of kids had actual paying jobs at age 11, and they still had chores at home,

I was just explaining that paid work for children is not something you can do in the UK due to regulations

geekgal Fri 20-Sep-13 11:57:19

That's true, ivykaty, I was more using it for emphasis, most kids I knew in the states didn't get their first jobs until they were 14 or 15 - I just lived for a while in farming country so you could get paid work mucking out much younger than that. You could even drive at age 10 so long as it was only a tractor!

FredFredGeorge Fri 20-Sep-13 12:04:37

You told your DD that she couldn't ask her father for help with her maths homework? YABU.

PresidentServalan Fri 20-Sep-13 12:12:42

I would definitely stop her from going - you made an agreement and not only has she not bothered to do her part but she shouted at you??? No way should she go!

Saffyz Fri 20-Sep-13 13:09:24

Maths is important, but I understand the problem of not being able to learn if you really don't get on with the teacher. Could you say she can go on the school trip, as long as she agrees to have some sit-down maths tuition from your DH?

FrauMoose Fri 20-Sep-13 14:37:58

If I had been unable to ask my father for help with my Maths O-level I probably would not have passed. I had a teacher who was basically not very good at finding different ways to explain things, but had been put in a set with people who seemed to be picking up concepts without difficulty. As I was quite able I felt quite panicky at suddenly not knowing what I was meant to do. Although I listened and asked the teacher for help - the teacher just thought I was being awkward and difficult.

I do think parents need to be able to help children when there are difficulties of this type - supporting them with the homework and also liaising with the school when a child is struggling. If I was the original poster's daughter, I could imagine getting really angry if one parent told me I couldn't ask the other one for help.

Saffyz Fri 20-Sep-13 17:23:49

There's a new requirement that children who don't achieve at least a Grade C in English and Maths will keep studying them until they are 18.

Saffyz Fri 20-Sep-13 17:24:01

GCSE that is.

EvaBeaversProtege Fri 20-Sep-13 17:58:01

Hi all, OP here.

Thanks for all the advice & I can see where those who say I'm U are coming from.

We're in NI, she's y8 & they sit transfer (11 plus) in p7 (last yr of primary)

The thing with the maths (and I'm not making it up) dd can do it. It wasn't even maths as such, she had to write down correlations positive & negative ones - no numbers involved. Ie: sunny weather/sun cream sold etc...

Anyway I'm getting off the issue:

Dd is my only daughter, she doesn't have regular chores, she doesn't even lift her towel after a shower (my fault I know) so the point of her having chores wasn't to earn money, it was simply for her to 'earn' the trip, which isn't essential.

I have no objections whatsoever about her asking her daddy for help, he generally does, the only reason I put that in the post is as its what caused her to tell me to shut up.

Thanks for reading & taking time to advise, I'm on phone so can't name check, but I'm going to relook at how I relate things to each other. It began with 'do the chores, earn the trip' a) she didn't do the chores (which weren't big, unload dishwasher, bring washing from her room which she should be doing anyway)

I do know changing to big school is a big thing, but she's a good mixer & has had no issues.

(whilst typing this she said mammy I told E & J I couldn't go on the trip as we had an argument & I spoke to you in a rude way. E said she wouldn't be allowed to go either)

sashh Fri 20-Sep-13 19:42:53

I think with the maths, get dad to help with the concept, with work sheets that are similar from elsewhere, then she should do the home work on her own.

If she is having genuine difficulty she will be encouraged as she will be doing the maths homework herself, if she just wants dad to do it she will start doing her homework.

I think you are right re not going on trips if she hasn't earned them but I think earning can be chores, jobs, working hard at school, finishing all homework on time etc etc.

greenfolder Fri 20-Sep-13 20:57:44

i dont think you are being harsh- she is just not used to being held to account. my dds would try the same stuff.

maths is easy to call her bluff. offer to write in her book that she didnt understand it and can the teacher go over it? that usually brings those that can but cant be bothered to their senses- dont want to be embarrassed in front of the teacher/their friends.

if she is rude to you and wont muck in- very valid reasons for no trip. next time she will know you mean it. in the meantime have a proper conversation at a quiet time. you expect her to pick up her towel, put stuff away because she is old enough/should be- but you and husband need to be on the same page

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