To be a bit hmm about a person who said she couldn't get on with women?

(182 Posts)
TheRunawayTrain Thu 19-Sep-13 20:46:19

Apparently female friendships are bitchy (implied/said but not in those words) and so on hmm

I thought we were making friends too. Then I mention I'm friends with this woman who does x (she was talking about that subject so was relevant) and she starts.

AIBU? I asked her why she was writing off half the population (in politer ways) and the conversation carried on awkwardly as we both disagreed, but didn't get heated much. I can remember one woman at university saying something similar. I think dismissing being friends with people for their gender is hmm especially as she's a woman herself!

DesperatelySeekingSedatives Thu 19-Sep-13 20:51:34

I am always wary and like you, hmm about women who say "ALL women are SUCH bitches I'm only really friends with men!"

Not all women are total bitches and indeed some of the bitchiest people I've ever met/been friends are men grin

I've found women who complain about all other women being bitches are usually nasty people themselves and haven't so much chosen to not be friends with other women but had the decision made for them. Men don't as a rule think same way women do and don't always see bitchiness for what it is (I dont mean to generalise btw this is just my experience!) therefore dont have a problem with this attitude.

Or they just think they might get lucky so overlook it hmm grin

TheRunawayTrain Thu 19-Sep-13 20:54:59

Oh sorry, read a thread on somethig along the same lines as mine so this is being discussed on a much longer thread which I've jusy uninowingly copied. blush Sorry smile

DesperatelySeekingSedatives Thu 19-Sep-13 20:56:43

oops! nevermind smile

BasilBabyEater Thu 19-Sep-13 20:56:49

YANBU

Women who claim other women are all bitches and they can't get on with them, generally have major problems with other women. It's not the other women, it's them.

HaroldLloyd Thu 19-Sep-13 21:00:06

You are right, this is very fishy.

People I have met that have said this have done it to suck up to a man for some reason or another. I wouldn't find a man a good prospect if he said he couldn't get on with 50% of the population so its an odd strategy.

Its weird.

And saying things like "All women are bitchy" is beyond annoying.

MadBusLady Thu 19-Sep-13 21:02:08

YANBU. I used to say that when I was 14 FFS when there was every justifcation. You might as well say "I can't get on with people who have blue eyes."

NoComet Thu 19-Sep-13 21:02:12

I am a very nice person! I may be a bit sharp on here, but I'm very much for giving people the benefit of the doubt in RL.

Some of the bitchy gossip amongst the school mums is awful, so yes I do tend to talk to a couple of the dads who are much nicer.

And before you round in me, if dragging up a minor parenting fail from 5 years previously, isn't bitchy, especially when the mum has lived abroad for ages. I don't know what is.

MrsMongoose Thu 19-Sep-13 21:02:54

Anyone who says all insert-x-type-of-people-here is the bitch. Majority often rules. Women aren't all bitches, but it is likely that they just don't like you.

MadBusLady Thu 19-Sep-13 21:03:39

confused

Has there been thread x-fertilization?

MaidOfStars Thu 19-Sep-13 21:04:38

I used to be a girl who was only friends with boys. Not because I thought women were bitchy, but because my manner/interests/bluntness/--distasteful sense of humour-- more naturally fitted with 'man'.

Then I realised that there were probably other women who felt the same. And I could probably be friends with them. Basically, I grew up ;)

YANBU to query (what I view as) an immature attitude. Either she doesn't mix enough, or she's too busy basking in the glow of all the males she surrounds herself with. She doesn't want a cuckoo in her nest.

Have to agree that it's a more mature woman who will say her best friends are women

There's a touch of the simpering, lady Diana fluttery eyelashes about the women who say they get on with men the best - basically they like men to 'appreciAte' their bluntness and sense of humour while secretly enjoying their cadging a look at their tits

NoComet Fri 20-Sep-13 00:38:31

Laurie you obviously have never had anything to do with proper nurdy science student girls, many if whom find men far more interesting company than women.

Sadly far too few women study science and we get very used to make company. We certainly don't flutter our eyelids, or hope the men are looking at our tits.

It's you who needs to grow up, if you think sex has to be part of everything.

missingmumxox Fri 20-Sep-13 00:58:08

I always had more male friends than female, because i despise the whole hair, teeth, top shop mentality of some women, I don't dislike women for being bitchy, men are far more bitchy than women, they really are.

all of my best friends are women, as when you find a good one they are the best, challenging, interesting, funny (I find women funnier than men) and supportive, i have had the odd male friend who has tried to help when i am in a crisis, but if it falls outside the remit of giving a lift to somewher or fixing a shelf they are shit!

Childcare crisis, death in the family, close friend/family dealing with a unwanted pregnancy/much wanted pregnancy but problems or no money for baby stuff...it is my female friends all the way...

I love my male friend but they are fair weather friends, I will alway give more than they can...but at least they don't talk about diets all night...actually, scrub that now they are in their late 40's early 50's that is all they talk about! and exercise! time to move on me thinks smile

missingmumxox Fri 20-Sep-13 01:03:29

PS My Dh is a nerdy science type...as are some of my greatest female friends.
He was a molecular scientist? something to do with DNA anyway??

MummyBeerest Fri 20-Sep-13 01:04:10

I read this as "get IT on with other women. " And was very confused but clicked anyway.

YANBU. I think women saying that is their guarded way of warning you they're dramatic.

MistressDeeCee Fri 20-Sep-13 01:18:03

I dont care which woman it is - if as a woman all her friends are male then as a woman, not a man, this is what she has actively chosen to cultivate. These women gravitate towards men as male validation matters highly to them. Its not that they cant get on with women as women are all oh so bitchy. oh, ummm...except the 1 with all the male friends that is grin

Such women tend to see other women as competitors, are often found hanging around some bloke's relationship (added bonus if his partner feels uncomfortable about it, their ego trip is complete), and normally can waffle on about being great friends with a man, but strangely never ever friends with his other half. If mentioned theyre all wide eyed & indignant about how theyve always been friends with men, cant relate to other women, blah blah blah

Up to them how they live their lives tho, I just cant be bothered with their need to find another woman to boast to about it and generally be rude to a woman about women

Rare is the woman who wouldnt be able to have loads of male ' friends ' if they set their mind and life that way, so its no big achievement deal to brag about anyway smile

GrandstandingBlueTit Fri 20-Sep-13 04:32:35

YANBU - the sort of person who says this reveals an awful about themselves, none of which is particulalry good.

A load of women admitted being like this on the other thread, which begs the question: why would you join a site populated virtually exclusively by women, if you think women in general are no craic?!

Oddness. grin

sleepywombat Fri 20-Sep-13 05:18:20

The bitchiest people I've known have been men.

MrsMook Fri 20-Sep-13 07:01:04

One of my best friends is a man. It's quite a sibling like relationship. One of my other best friends is his wife. I introduced them. DH is also great friends with them. We met in the same social group, but I met the wife separately, became friends and introduced her.

Some people really struggle to understand mixed sex platonic relationships. I hang around with females more, but have several good male friends. It's just about people I click with, not about categorising by their sex.

Men tend to be more direct and less likely to do behind the back bitchiness. That doesn't mean women are all bitchy though.

Theironfistofarkus Fri 20-Sep-13 07:13:23

Not much of a sample I know but the only person I know like this is highly competitive with other women to the extent that she has never had a relationship with a man who was single when she met him. I did once know someone else who women in general did not seem to like. She was pretty but v intense and somewhat obssessed with what she looked like (in an insecure way). Men tended to like her but women tended to put her down.

geekgal Fri 20-Sep-13 07:23:13

Agree with op, women who say they don't like other women because they simply get on better with men are pretty much an avoid at all costs for me, it's one of the last forms of acceptable misogyny because it's a woman saying it - hey, maybe that's why they are mostly friends with men and think all women are bitchy...

ApocalypseThen Fri 20-Sep-13 07:35:37

It's a big red flag for me, too. It definitely suggests a woman who has internalised the worst stereotypes about women and is begging, pleading for men to validate that she's not like that, she's worth something.

It's quite sad.

HairyGrotter Fri 20-Sep-13 07:45:38

I avoid these types, nothing good has ever come from a person who 'limits' their openness to friendship.

I had only male friends from 11 to 14, due to my hobby of skateboarding, however, I love my female friendships, and cherish them dearly. Women are wonderful friends, as are men. Although, I've noticed male friends to be far more bitchy than my female friends!

geekgal Fri 20-Sep-13 07:46:45

Agreed ApocalypseThen - the validation thing is the bit that most amuses/irritates me. It doesn't even have to be about sex, it can just be the validation of " you're not like all these other women, you're better, you think more like a man", so it's like sexism and a superiority complex combined. Although they don't seem to realise by falling into the trap of thinking they are superior they're tacitly agreeing that men not only think differently and also are better than women, including them, which means they'll never win...

MrsWolowitz Fri 20-Sep-13 07:54:08

YANBU.

It's a very immature thing to say. It smacks of trying to be 'one of the lads' and I'm very hmm about women who make such a statement.

BinksToEnlightenment Fri 20-Sep-13 08:01:39

I prefer to be friends with men, but I do have female friends. My female friends are the type that prefer to be friends with men too.

I enjoy the rough and tumble banter you get with guys. It's nothing personal against women. I'm happy to hang out with women and be friends with them. I just find it easier to make friends with men.

BanjoPlayingTiger Fri 20-Sep-13 08:02:38

As a general rule I tend to get on better with men than women. However this isn't because I think all women are bitchy or anything else, but more that a lot of my interests are more traditionally male. I do have good female friends, I also have good male friends but tend to find it easier to form friendships initially with men as I generally have more in common with them.

Preciousbane Fri 20-Sep-13 08:39:17

I try and like human beings regardless of gender but am not in the least bit feminine. I actually think the women I work with are incredibly feminine. They really do talk about handbags and I do sit there with a
confused look but try desperately to feign interest. These women have quite openly said I am a bit odd.

geekgal Fri 20-Sep-13 08:48:10

You get rough and tumble banter with women, you even said it yourself, it's not a " male " thing - did you see the Christmas play thread?! grin

FavoriteThings Fri 20-Sep-13 08:57:12

I think that in certain circles and or occupations, more bitchy women exist. So if you are in that particular occupation and/or move in certain circles, then your perception is skewed.
But everyones' perceptions are skewed to a greater or lesser extent.

jasminerose Fri 20-Sep-13 09:03:43

Woman that say this are like women that say all mens are dicks etc. Its something wrong with them that they keep making poor choices

TheYamiOfYawn Fri 20-Sep-13 09:24:54

I have some friends who have very few female friends because they work in very male-dominated areas and have hobbies which tend to appeal more to men, and who have had a bit of a geeky style of social skills. In most cases they started making female friends when their male friends started settling down in long-term relationships and they started meeting women who were attracted to geeky men and so also enjoyed the company of geeky women but were un-geeky enough to be a more forward in the early stages of building a friendship.

LessMissAbs Fri 20-Sep-13 09:32:21

Well I guess that explains those women who change from ranting harridans to simpering she devils as soon as a man is around, like a switch has been flipped. Its pretty sad.

They've probably worked out that other women aren't going to run around after them in case they get a shag.

geekgal indeed you do get banter, but not with the permanent ego boost of thinking they all fancy you a bit (and that you understand them so much better than their girlfriends..)

;-)

Damnautocorrect Fri 20-Sep-13 09:35:09

I used to say that, and I used to have a lot of men as friends. But that was because my friendship experience was based on bitchy bully girls at school, so of course boys make better friends.
But now I'm a bit older I realise not all girls are like that.

specialsubject Fri 20-Sep-13 09:36:01

Laurie what nonsense. You are saying that women are only friends with men so they can be admired. Look to your own insecurities.

I generally find men more interesting company because they are unlikely to jabber about clothes, shoes, handbags, makeup, fake tan etc etc. But if they were jabbering about football I would also not be interested.

friend is a friend.If you have stuff in common, gender is irrelevant.

mercibucket Fri 20-Sep-13 09:36:36

a lot of people say their husband is their best friend, certainly it is true for me.
i also prefer 'banter' with men as it tends to just be lighthearted and cracking jokes. less women do that, but if they do, i like talking to them too

special

Not saying that at all, have plenty of male friends with whom I don't have that sort of relationship.

I was saying that women who only say that they want to be with men have dubious reasons.

Youre not saying that are you? That you only have male friends, that you can't be friends with women?

BinksToEnlightenment Fri 20-Sep-13 10:56:38

It's nothing to do with being admired. That would suggest that all men fancy me, which isn't the case at all. I'm making friends with people, not racking up ego boosters.

geekgal Fri 20-Sep-13 11:22:44

I think the banter bit can be a flirty ego boost or it can purely be preferring the type of conversation, there's nothing inherently wrong with either. But I tend to find the word " banter " refers more to work situations than close friends, and (wrongly) women are taught that there can be only one - they must compete with each other because they won't get the men's jobs, that's just a fact, so I find wherever I've worked women are usually on tender hooks a little more - after all, they not only have to compete with each other for the low paid jobs, they must be able to convince their superiors (mostly men) that they are " the one ". At the company I'm in now there are a lot of jobs, but only 3 that are traditionally held by women. There are as many women as men who apply for jobs with us, though, so no wonder the guys can all banter and the ladies seem to lack a bit of a sense of humor!! Their conversation probably improves a bit when they go home and complain about the crap job they can't get promoted from because some dood who's been there 2 days got promoted first!

But that's a whole different kettle of monkeys there...

SeaSickSal Fri 20-Sep-13 11:29:50

I believe it was me. And I didn't say I don't get on with women. I do have several very close female friends and am also close to my Mum and my Gran.

But I do find that more women are nasty than are not. I would say a good 65% of women are bitchy and horrible.

It takes me a long time to trust other women.

I find a lot of them will go all out to be vicious to someone simply because they 'don't like them'. Not that they've done anything wrong, just that they're not their cup of tea so they think that gives them the right to treat them like shit. And they actively enjoy doing it.

And to be quite frank a lot of people on this thread saying 'Oh well it must be there fault because if everybody doesn't like them they must deserve it' sound like exactly that type of person.

I do get on with other women but I'm extremely selective. I think as a society we encourage this type of behaviour.

SinisterSal Fri 20-Sep-13 11:35:33

I would like to point out to anyone who knows me I have not namechanged.

SeaSickSal and SinisterSal are two very different people!

DownstairsMixUp Fri 20-Sep-13 11:45:57

Men can be just as bitchy! Infact I have sometimes found my male friends are a LOT worse than the women i am friends with! I used to say that when I was 14/15 as i got bullied by only girls but obviously I've grown up a bit now, thankfully!

TheQuietCricket Fri 20-Sep-13 11:49:50

I'm now very wary of women who after sharing office space with them and naturally chatting over the days/months/years turn out to have absolutely NO close female friends. (No old school friends, no female Uni friends, no previous workplace female friends, no schoolmum type friends, not a single one)

I've worked with 3 such individuals over the years in a variety of workplaces and without exception they have all been, deep down, hard-nosed, selfish, unable to work in a team unless they are heading it up and given any opportunity likely to be quite deviously self-serving.

They seem to have the exterior of a woman but lack some traits common to women.

I enjoy relaxing/the banter of a group of men more than getting together with a group of women as the bitching about other women that can often be part of the group conversation makes me feel uncomfortable but my one-to-one female friendships are good and there are plenty of them.

No OP you are, IME, not unreasonable to be a bit Hmmmm about a female who can't/doesn't get on reasonable well with other females.

TheBigJessie Fri 20-Sep-13 11:52:24

Hmm.

Well, the sheer double-think involved is staggering. For a woman to say she has too little in common with 50% of the population for friendship and she prefers male friendship, means she must actually believe she is the one woman in history who doesn't like handbags!

She's proved herself sexist to women, and I bet she is also sexist to men.

I would say my friends are male and female, and the friendships rest on common interests like hero-worship of Richard Dawkins intellectual pretentiousness, and shared senses of humour.

I would also add that I once knew a woman who said I was her first female friend, and she didn't like other women, yada, yada. After a year, I got to work out why. Whenever there was a bloke around she fancied, she would start publicly putting me down, to boost herself in his eyes. And she would betray my private confidences in her to other women at the drop of a hat!

TheRunawayTrain Fri 20-Sep-13 11:54:09

SeaSick unless you currently live in Ecuador, it's not.

FavoriteThings Fri 20-Sep-13 12:00:49

Personally wouldnt put it anywhere near 65%, but there are a sizeable number imo.
Now apparently to be sexist, in the first instance, the hypothesis has to be wrong. But who can categorically say that any poster is right or wrong on this?

fwiw, I probably get on with men and women about equally. Probably prefer men if it comes down to it.

FavoriteThings Fri 20-Sep-13 12:01:52

Can I ask a question. Not sure if it is relevant or not to this discussion. Why in reality shows, are women voted off first on the whole and in the main?

geekgal Fri 20-Sep-13 12:14:52

The supposition that 65% of women are bitches is the hypothesis, until the poster can provide good evidence of this then we can all safely say it's not, since the onus is on them to prove it.

And women get voted off early for a variety of reasons, there have been loads of studies done on who the producers pick, why people view them the way they do, it's actually a really wide and varied subject (WAY too in depth though for MN, I'd suggest checking out Sociological Images and the Center for the Study of Women in Film and TV if you're interested)

coralanne Fri 20-Sep-13 12:15:44

A friend is a friend. Some of my friends are male some are female.

Some females are total bitches to work with as are some males.

My DB often says he feels more comfortable around women and generally has more women friends. That's because he grew up with 5 sisters.

FavoriteThings Fri 20-Sep-13 12:19:44

ooh. So if a poster says something, it is not true unless they can prove it? That sounds dubious to me.

Thanks for the film bit. I will have a read. If you have a handy link sometime, I would be grateful.

FavoriteThings Fri 20-Sep-13 12:20:49

<strokes chin> wouldnt it work the other way round too. If someone says something is not, they have to prove it too?

specialsubject Fri 20-Sep-13 12:21:37

laurie No, I didn't say anything that you suggest.

I can be friends with women, but after years in male-dominated occupations I don't know that many.

I am wary of new female acquaintances because the people who I have trusted and been hurt by have, coincidentally, all been women. It takes me a while to work out if this is someone I feel I can trust.
I have never been hurt or had my trust betrayed by a man, but then again nor have men become as close to me as the closest of my female friends.

Having mainly worked in male dominated environments I have naturally found friendships developing with men rather than women. My interests have tended to be more masculine than feminine too, so my spare time was spent in male dominated environments as well. I'm not really a girly-girl so can't relate to fashion/fake tan/fake nails/children discussions which doesn't help; I generally find I have more in common with men than women. But there is one activity I do which means I socialise with both sexes and I enjoy the company of both, although probably because these women aren't girly-girls.

Regarding bitchiness, I've only had that from women. When men have let themselves down it's been sexually inappropriate behaviour (from them) rather than bitchiness. The only times I've been bullied have been by females, but I don't assume all female co-workers (especially managers) are cow-bags because of it. However, I do find I'm naturally a bit less confident with women, as though I expect to be stabbed in the back, yet I never feel that way with men.

jasminerose Fri 20-Sep-13 12:28:42

I work with all women and we dont talk about fake nails, fake tan etc. Have half the people on this thread ever even had close women friends? hmm

squoosh Fri 20-Sep-13 12:32:49

Yes because all women talk about is fake tan and nails. Yep, that's the sum total of their subjects of conversation.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

PresidentServalan Fri 20-Sep-13 12:33:10

I relate to men more in RL - but generally that's down to a lack of things in common.

I do get on okay with women in real life sometimes but every female boss I have ever worked for has been terrible - if that makes me sexist, then it does.

stargirl1701 Fri 20-Sep-13 12:36:03

I think girls & women who are on the autistic spectrum find friendships with men easier. Less complicated. Fewer unwritten rules. Less emotional context within the friendship.

StuntGirl Fri 20-Sep-13 12:45:47

Most of my friends currently are men, it's just through sheer coincidence. A few years ago most of my friends were women, again through coincidence. Maybe in a few more years it'll be more balanced, or it'll go one way or the other again. Who knows.

StuntGirl Fri 20-Sep-13 12:47:43

Well yes servalan it does make you sexist hmm. All my worst bosses have been male, doesn't mean male managers are shit because they're male. It means I was unfortunate enough to work with a bunch of knobheads grin

passedgo Fri 20-Sep-13 12:53:03

I find close women friends completely open and excellent but I find a lot of female acquaintances have a kind of unpredictability like you don't know quite why they have said what they have or it is inconsistent with what they said before. There's a lack of integrity that I don't find so much with men. Men are just more straightforward.

For example I went out the other night, met lots of new people. The ones I talked to initially were men, they were easy to talk to, had something to say themselves and it was easy and amicable. It wasn't until after talking to them that the women seemed to open up to me and talk. If the men weren't there I'm fairly certain the women wouldn't have talked to me and I would have found it very hard to talk to them. By the end of the evening the men had drifted off and the women all talked together (including me), not about hair and make-up either. It was interesting.

So yes, initially men are easier to talk to socially and women are find as long as there is absolute trust and understanding. When insecurity and paranoia rears its ugly head I leave hastily, it creeps up on women astoundingly fast and I just don't get it. But in general, only women will give you a true long term friendship.

jasminerose Fri 20-Sep-13 12:55:34

Its easy to talk to new men and women ime. I think you are either the personality that makes friends easily or your not. Its nothing to do with gender.

Saffyz Fri 20-Sep-13 13:00:44

I have been bullied by various girls/women in my life but very rarely by men. I find myself feeling wary of meeting new women more than men, but do try to hard to overcome this. I wish it wasn't the case, as I'd love to feel comfortable meeting all new people.

geekgal Fri 20-Sep-13 13:08:53

Lots of sweeping statements flying around this thread! We all know different people and that will affect how we see others, it's just the generalisations that are disturbing - people saying I know 10 men and because they're all emotionally detached that means ALL men are - it's just your own small skive of life, not the ultimate truth!

And proof of ridiculousness is usually required - if I said something silly like most men are made of flour or most women like to sleep on their pianos I'd kind of expect people to ask for a small shred of evidence! grin

Links for you:

[http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/]

[http://womenintvfilm.sdsu.edu/research.html]

Hope that turns out ok, never put a link in before...

geekgal Fri 20-Sep-13 13:10:18
geekgal Fri 20-Sep-13 13:10:39

Yay!!! It worked!!!

creighton Fri 20-Sep-13 13:18:29

what are the 'interests' that are more male than female? none of my female friends spend their time talking about fake tan, false nails and handbags. we can talk about getting a bargain when buying bags/shoes whatever, but careers, politics, economics ,travel, drinking, computers/IT, films bit of sport etc are discussed as well

CuChullain Fri 20-Sep-13 13:31:55

Men can certainly be brutal to each other but that tends to be episodic, to flare, peak and die, sometimes even to be resolved with the proverbial handshake. Most blokes simply cant be arsed to prolong a confrontation for any length of time, its too much hard work, there are more important things in life to be getting on with, most just let it go or agree to disagree or just avoid that persons company.

In my experience, organised campaigns of cliquey bitchiness and underhand conspiracies to undermine someone, are very female. One only has to experience working in a majority female office to see quite how calculating, two faced, bullying and insidiously nasty some women can be to each other.

And one thing I've noticed in my life, but I can't speak for anyone else, is that whilst there is of course bullying of boys by other boys at a younger age, when men grow up they tend to be less self-concious socially and bullying seems to decrease. Strangely the biggest male bullies I have met since getting older have actually been the most effeminate 'campy' men with almost exclusively female friends who can be incredibly bitchy. BUllying amongst girls, on the other hand, does not seem to really decrease when they get older.

jasminerose Fri 20-Sep-13 13:36:21

I have only ever worked in predominantly female trades and cant say its anything like you describe cuchillian

Petal02 Fri 20-Sep-13 13:44:39

I also work in a mainly female environment, the majority of the women are great. But there are two colleagues (lets call them A and B), who are a truly toxic pair. Their activities include manipulation, game-playing, back-stabbing, ignoring, excluding, be-littling ...... the usual stuff. Strangely, colleague A is fine on her own, but when she's with colleague B, she stoops to her level. Colleague B is an evil piece of work. What a relief that women like this seem to be in the minority. But they really skew the dynamics of the office.

PresidentServalan Fri 20-Sep-13 14:11:56

I have never worked with or for a man who has stabbed me in the back. Most of the women I know are game-players and far too emotionally complicated. Not to say all women but I can only speak from experience. My life has been made hell by various women friends, colleagues and bosses throughout the years.

geekgal Fri 20-Sep-13 14:23:59

Ironic that all these nameless backstabbing women keep popping up on the same day Damian McBride has released his book about the (mostly male) backstabbing civil servants and MPs - remind me again how this is a female trait...?

SinisterSal Fri 20-Sep-13 14:28:42

Now lets see can we break down negative traits by any other arbitrary marker.

People with long ring fingers are more greedy.
i worked with some greedy sods in my time and -get this - quite a few of them had long ring fingers! Sorry if you think I'm a bigot

squoosh Fri 20-Sep-13 14:31:20

Wow, it's as though some people have spent their lives living in Falcon Crest or Dynasty. All these Alexis Carrington type bitches seem to have passed me by.

I've met utter tossers in my life, wouldn't have a clue as to what the male/female breakdown would be.

lisylisylou Fri 20-Sep-13 14:35:39

My Dh is the loveliest man but has a very dry sense of humour. His favourite saying 'human existence has long given up its right to exist!' He also says when people have annoyed him ''I hate people".

geekgal Fri 20-Sep-13 14:37:37

I met this guy once who had a long ring finger and he was like that, so it MUST be true - and you can't prove me wrong so I'm obviously right! And all he talked about were beer and mud wrestling, like ALL men...

SinisterSal Fri 20-Sep-13 14:39:28

<satisfied nod of agreement>

There ya go

geekgal Fri 20-Sep-13 14:40:27

lisylisylou - I say I hate people too! Maybe we should form a club. Except that I mostly hate people, so it would probably be pointless as it would involve, well, people...

FavoriteThings Fri 20-Sep-13 14:41:26

Ah Ha. Now the other side of this debate is on the back foot.
That is the problem with this debate. Even if one knows 50 women who are bitchy or not bitchy, it doesnt probe the debate one side or the other.

middleclassdystopia Fri 20-Sep-13 14:44:35

Wow the patriarchy has done its job well. Divide and conquer....

aquashiv Fri 20-Sep-13 14:45:03

I think its rather sad as she is saying she is not able to like or value herself.

squoosh Fri 20-Sep-13 14:47:40

'Why in reality shows, are women voted off first on the whole and in the main?'

Are they though? There have been lots of female winners of reality shows as far as I can recall.

TheYamiOfYawn Fri 20-Sep-13 14:48:31

In the case of my friends, the "more men than women" interests would include role playing games, martial arts, comics, medieval weaponry... Women are interested in those things to, but if you get a group of random people together who have those kids of interests, there are likely to be a lit more men than women, so women who like that kind of thing are a lot more likely to have predominantly male friends and find it harder to get chatting to random other women.

SinisterSal Fri 20-Sep-13 14:49:56

It's not even a debate, it's just daft

Categorising nasty traits by sex says feck all about male and female and more about the person doing the categorising

KatoPotato Fri 20-Sep-13 14:53:50

I'd tell her 'I just can't get on with people who make massive sweeping generalisations based on gender.'

MistressDeeCee Fri 20-Sep-13 15:03:30

I dont have any 'buts' in my life about friends. It seems strange to gender-differentiate. A friend is a friend, surely.

As a woman I mainly have female friends. I should think thats quite normal. I have 2 male friends Ive known for 20+ years. I dont feel oh wooooow theyre men Ive done so well. Theyre just my mates. I dont need to preen about being '1 of the lads' theyd probably burst out laughing if I tried all that. Im ok to be just me, we're comfortable with each other. Thats how it is between friends. Competitiveness based on ' Im a better woman than you because blokes like me more ' is just....cringe.

Men are men..if a woman wants to have or gather up male friends then there'll be PLENTY of men who will most certainly be her friends. smile its not rocket science

Women who say all women are bitchy and hard to get on with either have no concept of irony, or see something totally different when they look in the mirror (I dunno, some kind of elite alien hybrid species neither male or female, fish nor fowl...) grin

CuChullain Fri 20-Sep-13 15:03:48

"Wow the patriarchy has done its job well. Divide and conquer...."

Not really, a quick look at any of the "my DH does no cleaning/cooking/shopping/childcare/is emotionally retarded or dating threads to see that the mumsnet matriarchy are not exactly adverse to some sweeping generalisations of their own when observing male behaviour through prism of anecdotal evidence.

SinisterSal Fri 20-Sep-13 15:05:29

You know, that sounds as if it could be a clever observation CuChullain but actually it's a pretty empty statement.

myrubberduck Fri 20-Sep-13 15:11:15

Sorry have not read all of the thread but can I just say that I used to be one of those women who preferred the company of men- I felt that I had ASD around other women when I was younger- I always seemed to be insulting them, pissing the off or weirding them out with not a clue as to what I was doing wrong and I felt much easier to get on with men- it just seemed simpler.

I now have some very good female friends but it has taken a good while. So don't be too harsh on someone who says that they don't get on with other women as it might not mean what you assume!

CuChullain Fri 20-Sep-13 15:11:25

"You know, that sounds as if it could be a clever observation CuChullain but actually it's a pretty empty statement."

= I can't be bothered to actually challenge the assertion so instead I shall dismiss it with a glib statement!

geekgal Fri 20-Sep-13 15:18:57

Patriarchy = real and in power, matriarchy = doesn't exist, that's about the most simple way to challenge it. Unless suddenly over 50% of all government ministers, company directors and leaders of major organisations turned into women overnight and I never noticed.

I have yet to change the channel today so that could be the case...

CuChullain Fri 20-Sep-13 15:31:23

If we are talking about the wider society in general than I absolutely agree with you. I made reference to the 'mumsnet matriarchy' which I believe is very real. This site was founded by women for women and moderated by women, its membership (I dont have the figures) I would guess would be about 85% female with most of the topics discussed on here relating to very female specific issues. I would say that as far as this site is concerned women are very much at the helm in terms of control, leadership and moral authority. So I dont think my use of the term matriarchy in this context is misplaced.

FavoriteThings Fri 20-Sep-13 15:47:09

sqoosh, they most definitely are

SeaSickSal Fri 20-Sep-13 15:47:53

*I'm now very wary of women who after sharing office space with them and naturally chatting over the days/months/years turn out to have absolutely NO close female friends. (No old school friends, no female Uni friends, no previous workplace female friends, no schoolmum type friends, not a single one)

I've worked with 3 such individuals over the years in a variety of workplaces and without exception they have all been, deep down, hard-nosed, selfish, unable to work in a team unless they are heading it up and given any opportunity likely to be quite deviously self-serving.

They seem to have the exterior of a woman but lack some traits common to women.*

So basically what you are saying is that unless a woman wants to join your clique of women at work they are hated by all other women and have something wrong with them deep down and some kind of inherent personality flaw.

Congratulations, you are the 65% I was talking about.

FavoriteThings Fri 20-Sep-13 15:50:00

Mistress - ironic name A friend is a friend!

OrmirianResurgam Fri 20-Sep-13 15:51:43

She's meeting the wrong women.

squoosh Fri 20-Sep-13 15:52:34

FavoriteThings I maintain that there have been lots of female winners of reality shows because it's a fact. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, that women vote other women off tv shows because women hate other women?

I'm not privy to who votes on these shows so I can't make any judgement as to who votes and why they vote.

FavoriteThings Fri 20-Sep-13 15:52:39

SinisterSal. Sometimes people come to conclusions by looking around them and observing well.
Saying it says something about the person is generalizing, no?

FavoriteThings Fri 20-Sep-13 15:54:15

There have been lots yes. But probably, and someone else may have to back me up factually, there have been at least double that number who have been male.

squoosh Fri 20-Sep-13 15:57:30

I'm still not sure what point you're trying to make.

geekgal Fri 20-Sep-13 15:57:30

Maybe not in the context of MN but it could be argued that most of these stories aren't about women on MN, which is a comparatively small percentage of people overall, but about women in general, and that's where patriarchy kicks in. MN could be 100% women but it still wouldn't change the bigger picture much as the real power is still mostly wielded by men. I think the poster who said divide and conquer was pointing out that lots of gender divide arguments seem to go on between women, who are encouraged to do so by men, because it then distracts them from the real divides in society and nothing then changes. Hence patriarchy rules, the majority of women AND men lose...

geekgal Fri 20-Sep-13 15:58:01

Maybe not in the context of MN but it could be argued that most of these stories aren't about women on MN, which is a comparatively small percentage of people overall, but about women in general, and that's where patriarchy kicks in. MN could be 100% women but it still wouldn't change the bigger picture much as the real power is still mostly wielded by men. I think the poster who said divide and conquer was pointing out that lots of gender divide arguments seem to go on between women, who are encouraged to do so by men, because it then distracts them from the real divides in society and nothing then changes. Hence patriarchy rules, the majority of women AND men lose...

PresidentServalan Fri 20-Sep-13 16:01:57

When i was younger i was often the only female in groups of men (not deliberately - it just happened that way) - yes I was described as one of the lads - it wasn't about feeling special in any way, it just so happened that I dressed like them, behaved more like them and naturally fitted in with them. I do not have femininity - never have had. It's not about whether you are interested in hair and nails, I just don't have the emotional intelligence to deal with other females in RL. Way too complicated.

MistressDeeCee Fri 20-Sep-13 16:19:53

FavoriteThings oh its no good, I cant work it out

Mistress - ironic name A friend is a friend!

Whats ironic about my name?!

disclaimer: its not to do with me having 2 male friends blush it came from a pair of boots I bought in the 80s..I thought they looked really good. Mates (not the male ones!) thought they looked porno & took the p without mercy. Years later, they still wont let it go & the name's stuck..

FavoriteThings Fri 20-Sep-13 16:33:17

geekgal. I may not move in as sulubious a circle as you, but just who are the partiarchy group who do all this distracting. Are we talking about 5 or 50 men in Britain or 5 million?

mistress. "A friend is a friend". If you are married [perhaps you are a mistress], you just cannot go out with male friends twice a week and for there to be no eyebrows raised by anyone.

FavoriteThings Fri 20-Sep-13 16:38:47

geekgal. I have had a brief look at those links thank you. But I couldnt see that they answered my question.

What I am trying to say is women I think are the biggest voters on them. And women get booted off first on the whole. Why? Because they are bitchy against other females?

SPBisResisting Fri 20-Sep-13 16:47:28

I hate the word 'banter'

MistressDeeCee Fri 20-Sep-13 16:49:09

Favorite Things..ohhh, I see.

No - I said I have 2 male friends who've been friends for years & - not that I go out with them twice a week?! Maybe someone else said that in their comment.

Not married yet but in LTR; never been a mistress cant see the point of complicating life more than it needs to be.

come to think of it I wouldnt go out with male friends twice a week even if I wasnt in an LTR..much more in common with my female friends & that suits me fine

geekgal Fri 20-Sep-13 17:01:18

Hi FavoriteThings, these links will explain patriarchy (also known as kyriarchy) and who it is quite simply:

finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2007/03/21/faq-isnt-the-patriarchy-just-some-conspiracy-theory-that-blames-all-men-even-decent-men-for-womens-woes/

zingerella.livejournal.com/73987.html

If you go deeper into it the whole women voting thing becomes clear, it's not a simple answer I'm afraid! Those links I gave you before are a start...

Saffyz Fri 20-Sep-13 17:26:33

You do hear women saying they don't understand men, or generalising about men, quite often though. If a woman said she couldn't get on with men, would this attract the same indignation?

FavoriteThings Fri 20-Sep-13 18:05:45

ping

FavoriteThings Fri 20-Sep-13 18:13:32

patriarchy. Which men? Where? How many?

geekgal Fri 20-Sep-13 18:18:50

Read the links, it's written there, saves me trying to quote

geekgal Fri 20-Sep-13 18:22:28

And yes, it's annoying when women say they don't get along with men, you just don't hear it anywhere near as often so it hasn't become a trope, and since men hold the power they don't give a crap if a woman doesn't get on with them. We do because strength in numbers is the only way to redress the already skewed balance.

minidipper Fri 20-Sep-13 18:23:02

Sorry not read the thread and am knackered and a wee bit tipsy so not going to. But totally agree with OP - what is going on in such women's heads?Only woman I ever met who claimed this was in a social group I was in. We used to meet once a week and she'd always spend an hour telling us how stressful her life was because she had two huge houses to maintain and her darling son was off to Cambridge to read medicine so she was stuck with her daughter. Every week we women scampered around sympathising (when lots of us had severe real problems like domestic violence, miscarriage etc.) and keeping schtum about our own real problems, because hers were so much worse. Then she'd slag us all off for being bitches because we were women. In the end I couldn't stand her, so probably proved her right, as I became intolerant of her self-important, self pitying whinnying.

However, at DC's primary school I got in with an apparently wonderful bunch of mums who turned out to be really manipulative bitches, isolating one member of the group in turn, lying and backstabbing. I had no experience of such women, as all my female friends in life have been staggeringly warm, lovely, open etc. But these women were so good at it. There was a bunch of about four of them who played another dozen or so women really hard and cruelly. I got out and then watched from the sidelines when it was other women's turns. If I'd been friends at school with girls like that I might have felt odd about women,

FavoriteThings Fri 20-Sep-13 18:34:04

But you said "who are encouraged to do so by men". But that doesnt seem to equate with the links.

Your post 18.22pm Ah all is becoming clear. You group together with other women to have "strength in numbers" because "and since men hold the power they dont give a c if a woman doesnt get on with them"
Ah. It is actually you who doesnt get on with men. All has become so much clearer.

geekgal Fri 20-Sep-13 18:39:51

Actually it has - jump on anything vaguely feminist, refuse to do any background reading or pretend you don't understand it, then deliberately misread the post - you're either a troll or MRA or both - and I'm usually so good at spotting them!!

I don't feed trolls sorry, I'll engage with anyone else on the thread though since you all seem to be good faith posters smile

squoosh Fri 20-Sep-13 18:59:33

I would be equally suspicious of a woman who said she didn't get on with any men, or maybe I'd assume she'd had some horrific formative experiences that had left her scarred and wary.

jasminerose Fri 20-Sep-13 19:05:19

Its just as weird when someone says they cant get on with men/have decent relationships with men as they are all idiots etc. I dont think a billion people in the world can all be awful, so yes I would think the person who said it was a bit strange.

TheYamiOfYawn Fri 20-Sep-13 19:08:50

Favouritethings, one of my closest female friends is married and goes out with male friends at least twice a week. She has a regular pub night with DP and a couple of other guys, and usually goes out at least one other evening with one male friend or another. I tend to see her on Wednesdays.

FavoriteThings Fri 20-Sep-13 19:23:11

ha! troll! ha!
The ultimate word when you have lost an argument. Ha!

FavoriteThings Fri 20-Sep-13 19:24:45

Yami. I would be slightly worried about her partnership personally. I have seen that sort of thing happen before.

Saffyz Fri 20-Sep-13 19:49:00

> I would be equally suspicious of a woman who said she didn't get on with any men, or maybe I'd assume she'd had some horrific formative experiences that had left her scarred and wary.

Well that's fair enough if it works both ways.

But I'm sad to see on this thread that some people will write off a woman who may have had those bad experiences from other women (or girls when younger), finding it "hmm", "fishy" and saying they must be "nasty people themselves" or that it means you're trying to be "one of the lads" or will turn into a "simpering she devil" in male company.

Not the kindest descriptions of women who may just be wary of other women because they've had bad experiences too many times, and it has knocked their confidence in relating to other women to that extent.

Obviously there are many wonderful women in the world (not least here on MN!) But put me in a situation with new people, and my gut feelings will override this logic, and make me more wary of the women. This is definitely not deliberate, and I will make every effort to fight generalisations as much as the next person; but due to lifelong repeated experiences, these gut feelings of fear of connecting with other women happen anyway. I would love to find it easy to make friends with women and constantly do my best, but so far it has never come naturally.

So those who have no problem relating to other women, consider yourselves fortunate but please don't make negative assumptions about those who might not find it as straightforward. It's just not that simple.

samandi Fri 20-Sep-13 19:52:07

It's not about whether you are interested in hair and nails, I just don't have the emotional intelligence to deal with other females in RL. Way too complicated.

confused

Ahh ... haven't read the whole thread but OP, YADNBU. I find females that cannot deal with other females waaaaaaay too complicated. The utter illogic of their arguments baffles and bemuses me in equal measure.

samandi Fri 20-Sep-13 19:53:39

No doubt the poster quoted above lacks the emotional intelligence to deal with sarcasm and will take my post to be a typical bitchy female comment grin ... and so the self-perpetuating cycle will continue

TheRunawayTrain Fri 20-Sep-13 20:03:22

I know people with most or all male friens because life happens to mean that people who they relate to best happen to be male (not because of the gender), often because of the sector they work in, for example. And the same for women with women. And men with men. I can't care less who anyone is friends with, but I think writing off an entire gender for stereotypical reasons is a bit off. However, there are other circumstances which could be reasons (past history), but I mean labelling an entire gender bitchy or whatever.

geekgal Fri 20-Sep-13 20:08:41

Saffyz - your statement is fair enough then, as you have those formative experiences. I think the OP is more talking about women who will just come out with a random generalisation " all women are x,y,z " when x,y,z are either spurious or false or come from lack of experience. I wouldn't say it would make me dislike a woman who says that, you can never know their life stories, but it would make me wary based on my own past experiences of women who aren't friendly with other women. So in the end it's pretty similar to you, just different conclusions! smile

PresidentServalan Fri 20-Sep-13 21:37:18

Tbf I wouldn't write off half of the population by saying that all women behave in a certain way but I am more wary of women when I meet them. I can't help feeling that way. Fortunately I don't have friends in RL anyway, so it's less of an issue.

TheRunawayTrain Fri 20-Sep-13 21:43:55

No one can change how they feel instinctively. Nor should they have to.

squoosh Fri 20-Sep-13 21:50:37

But sometimes people's instincts are based on misinformation.

PresidentServalan Fri 20-Sep-13 22:13:15

But a lifetime of experience of something is hardly 'misinformation'! Everyone's experience colours the way they view the world.

squoosh Fri 20-Sep-13 22:16:26

Yes people's experiences colour the way they view the world but it's unlikely that every man or every woman that someone meets has been so awful as to turn a person off that gender completely.

More likely is that someone has some very bad experiences and those memories overshadow all the people that are nice/fine/ok.

FavoriteThings Fri 20-Sep-13 22:24:15

But some people think that they have met 65% have not been good experiences.

Are you saying that your experiences are valid and someelse's isnt??

squoosh Fri 20-Sep-13 22:39:43

Did I say that? No, I just made a suggestion as to why some people are able to write off an entire sex.

Do get back to me if you need further clarification.

utreas Fri 20-Sep-13 22:40:55

YANBU Anyone who claims they cannot get on with all women (or men) is socially dysfunctional is someway.

PresidentServalan Fri 20-Sep-13 22:49:42

Everyone's experience is valid - if you have been shit on by, eg, 10 women and 0 men, you are surely going to trust men more. I don't get close to anyone now so it's less complicated now. I get on with work colleagues because its on a casual basis and there's a lot of banter.

PresidentServalan Fri 20-Sep-13 22:52:23

utreas Actually I get on with some women but prefer men but yes, I AM socially dysfunctional - doesn't make my opinion less valid though - I'm still entitled to it!

KaseyM Sat 21-Sep-13 09:25:06

YANBU OP. It smacks of someone pulling up the ladder after themselves.

And shows a total lack of awareness of how society works.

PresidentServalan Sat 21-Sep-13 13:55:05

Yes because people with a different opinion are obviously a bit stupid....

Still, this thread shows that anyone who thinks that women are generally bitchy must be wrong hmm

squoosh Sat 21-Sep-13 13:57:14

President saying that women are generally bitchy just makes you sound like a bitchy woman.

Maybe you should ponder that a while.

SeaSickSal Sat 21-Sep-13 22:44:51

Incidentally, to all the people claiming that women are lovely snuggly balls of wonderfulness and not at all bitchy.

I've just noticed the gluezilla tread has been resurrected again.

Okay the woman was rude but that thread was a gleeful crucifixion and pulling apart of her that way outdid what she deserved for being rude.

That thread illustrated exactly what I mean, a large rump of women who actively enjoy pulling another person to pieces and being bitches. It's like the women knitting at the guillotine.

SinisterSal Sat 21-Sep-13 22:50:35

who says that women are lovely snuggly bunnies or whatever snide little phrase you used?

Just that, women are ordinary people, like men! gasp - some are bitchy, some are funny, some are cowards, some have bad days. it's not about your knickers

seriously it's not hard to grasp.

yes, this is me being abrupt, because I'm annoyed, as people can be, not because my ovaries got loose

passedgo Sat 21-Sep-13 23:06:47

A few others on this thread have admitted to their inability to get on with 'fellow' women. I think it shows strength to admit that. I seem to be one of those people that just pisses other women off. I have some really good close female friends, but in a group of acquaintances I seem to just annoy them. In small groups it's better, but where there is any kind of jostling for position I end up at the bottom of the heap. I just dust myself off and find a man to talk to.

passedgo Sat 21-Sep-13 23:19:43

Actually over the years I have worked out that there are quite a few people like me and I am learning to focus on socialising with them and leave the pushy ones out. Only yesterday evening I was talking to someone, someone came and butted in, the woman I was talking to then dropped our conversation for the butter -inner's. I just turned and walked, had a very interesting chat with a woman standing alone nearby. Not long ago I would have stood by and smiled politely.

FavoriteThings Sat 21-Sep-13 23:20:00

There seem to be a fair number of annoyed women on this thread. Funny.

SinisterSal Sat 21-Sep-13 23:23:25

Why is it funny Favourite Things? just..as you'd expect really

Are you trying to make some sort of point or something?

passedgo Sat 21-Sep-13 23:23:53

I must say this is a weird thread, a bit like a vegetarian's conference about the correct way to fry a steak. Or something.

FavoriteThings Sat 21-Sep-13 23:26:03

grin

BewitchedBotheredandBewildered Sat 21-Sep-13 23:34:13

I am very wary of women who do not have long- standing women friends.
I don't understand how that happens.
All my best friends are deeply, bitchy, atrocious cunts.
We would and have swum oceans for each other.
Some of them are men, but most are women.

squoosh Sun 22-Sep-13 01:11:28

FavoriteThings without wanting to seem rude you do come out with an awful lot of babble. If there's a point you like to make please do so.

squoosh Sun 22-Sep-13 01:21:00

'to all the people claiming that women are lovely snuggly balls of wonderfulness and not at all bitchy.

Excuse me, what?

Women can be violent, women can be bitchy, women can be liars, women can be backstabbers, women can be manipulative, women can be conniving, women can be atrocious cunts.

All of the above is true but this does not sum up all women. Is that really so hard to understand?

Are all the anti-women women so very obtuse that they can't understand that having a vagina does not automatically mean that all of the above traits should be assigned to you? God help any daughters you are raising, you must have a very low opinion of them.

Tonandfeather Sun 22-Sep-13 02:50:14

Think some of the experiences talked about here show real bigotry towards women.

We've all met some asshats in our time. I'd defy anyone to say those asshats have never been men.

But there aren't any posts from the anti-women brigade saying "A few men I've worked with were horrible to me, so now I'm very wary of men"

Just hate it when women are expected to be standard bearers for good behaviour. That expectation is never, ever passed on to men.

FavoriteThings Sun 22-Sep-13 10:19:13

Personally I dont think any men I have worked with have been horrible to me.
Though we employ them, have done for years, so that might make a bit of a difference. Though, on the other hand, they could have been horrid, couldnt they?
If you treat men nicely, they are generally nice back.

BasilBabyEater Sun 22-Sep-13 13:24:21

Imagine saying this about gay people, or black people. "Ooh, I've never got on with any black person I've ever worked with, can't think why, it must be because they're all horrid".

That attitude would be treated with the contempt it deserves.

Tonandfeather Sun 22-Sep-13 14:19:50

Gah, if you treat ANYONE nicely, generally they'll be nice back. But there are always asshat exceptions and that isn't gendered. Beginning to think these people who've never met any nasty men must make far more allowances for male asshats than they do women. The sort of people who say 'He's a card!' when some tosser bloke makes a sexist joke, but say 'What a bitch' when a woman is assertive.

FavoriteThings Sun 22-Sep-13 14:44:08

There are exceptions to both are there not, which is the point.

A poster who says "men hold the power". What, all men?
And "they dont give a cxxx if men dont get on with them". Triple, really???

Why cant there be the same number of women who are not very nice, and men who are not very nice?
There we are, the perfect non sexist answer. [assuming the statement is true].

Tonandfeather Sun 22-Sep-13 15:16:47

Of course it's possible that the same amount of 'not nice' women exist as 'not nice' men. What seems hugely improbable is that people have only encountered nasty women and not nasty men. That suggests that those people make far more allowances for men than they do women and are less likely to frame their behaviour as 'bad' than they would if a woman behaved the same way. Plus there seems to be an expectation that women shouldn't behave badly at all, but if they do, they suddenly become standard bearers for their entire sex. That's a standard that is never applied to men.

Structurally, men DO hold the power, so that is factually accurate.

FavoriteThings Sun 22-Sep-13 15:33:32

Someone is saying the same sort of things about men, That is sexist is it not, assuming it is not true.

And no one has actually said what you have just written, as far as I know.

FavoriteThings Sun 22-Sep-13 15:37:14

Not sure my last post makes much sense? You might need to ignore that one smile

Men dont hold all the power, no. Though quite a lot of it, yes. But not so much in the home.

FavoriteThings Sun 22-Sep-13 15:38:08

And women have far more input into children, the next generation.

MollyHooper Sun 22-Sep-13 15:40:45

What are you on about?

BasilBabyEater Sun 22-Sep-13 16:54:58

Yes poor men, being deprived of having all that input into the next generation.

That's why they dress up in Superman outfits and scale Buckingham Palace demanding the right to paid paternity leave and part time work as a standard for all parents of whatever sex and are demanding part time work in the same number as mothers are and insist that they're the ones who liaise with schools about their children and ensure that their packed lunches and PE kits and music stuff is all ready ferry their kids to the sports clubs and take their kids to GP and dental appointments and co-ordinate playdates and march in the street and lobby their MP's unceasingly so they can have those rights.

Oh, wait...

hmm

PolkadotsAndMoonbeams Sun 22-Sep-13 17:38:19

I think it depends on the group of people and the situation really, I find it very hard to believe anybody can't get on with all men or all women.

In general, I would gravitate towards women, probably because I'm more 'used' to them (I was at all girls schools, so all my very long standing friends are female). But when I was at university I started at a society where all the girls were very friendly. If you'd seen me at the beginning, you'd think I was more friendly with the boys there as for the first few months I'd speak to them more, sit with them if we went out as a group and hardly speak to the girls.

It wasn't that I didn't like the girls, but because they were a very tight knit group they were less likely to speak to me, whereas the men would. Also, I lived quite a long way away, so one of the men would often offer to walk me back, so I'd talk to them more and got to know them better. After a few months I knew people better, so was more confident to talk to everybody and they knew me better so would talk to me. I have some great friends from there, both men and women. Even though I'm very friendly with the girls, I'm still especially fond of two men, the ones who were friendly to me the first time I went.

Maybe I was just unlucky, and that the girls were clique-y while the men weren't really? That would probably look like I got on better with the men, but it wasn't really the case!

FavoriteThings Mon 23-Sep-13 09:46:40

I am intrigued by this thread. It is a bit fascinating. BBE, and others,what percentage of men do you think are ok?

I saw parts of Who Do You Think You Are, with Marianne Faithful. I cant remember which country her mum and gran were in during the war, an occupied one, possibly Austria. And the soldiers came and raped her mum and her gran and most of the women in the city. And after that,her mum and her gran turned to hate all men, which also had an impact on Marianne until she was 50. After that, Marianne realised where the hatred of men had come from.

HarrietIsHistory Mon 23-Sep-13 10:00:24

I mostly get on better with men because I tend to have more in common with them, went into a predominately male subject at uni. I wouldn't say that I don't get on with women, I just tend to get on better with men. It has nothing to do with attractiveness or anything sexual, certainly not in my case because I doubt any of my male friends have ever fancied me, I just not the fanciable type.

When I was in my teens and twenties, before everyone settled with partners it was easy to have male friends. Once those male friends got partners and I met my DH it became less appropriate to hang around and socialise with blokes in the same way and the friendships drifted.

Now, most of my friends are women that I have met through baby groups or school. I like them, but often don't feel the affinity with them that I used to find quite easily with my male friends.

I don't find either males or females more bitchy or anything though.

passedgo Mon 23-Sep-13 10:10:12

There was a great programme with that entrepreneur woman not Mary Portas, a while back where they did an experiment on gender. They put together teams yo eork on a project, one all male, one all female. The men competed with each other and decided that they knew better. The women quickly developed a social pecking order and placed popularity in the group before the effectiveness of the project.

When the worked in a mixed group there was a healthy balance of both effective outcome and people pleasing.

Women place more importance generally on being liked, being friendly with the right people. I think some women are simply not cut out for that and so in social situations they gravitate towards men, where there is less pressure.

FavoriteThings Mon 23-Sep-13 10:25:22

Interesting posts.

Would explain why men run businesses work better. They are out to compete with each other, whereas women care more about people pleasing. Hmm. Food for thought.

I loke to anaylise things. I must admit, I do have trouble spotting people pleasers in rl. It doesnt enter my head, so I dont spot it in others.

CakeForBreakfast Mon 23-Sep-13 16:26:02

I don't trust a woman who (says she) cannot get along with other women. I have met a few. They always claim it is nothing to do with sexual competition.

It is always about sexual competition. They need to be special.

Bitchiness is a red herring

SinisterSal Mon 23-Sep-13 21:05:51

who says male run businesses work better? that's news to me. got a link or is it just what you think yourself?

BasilBabyEater Mon 23-Sep-13 21:09:33

Favouritethings what an odd question

I've no idea what percentage of men are OK.

What's the definition of OK?

Tonandfeather Mon 23-Sep-13 21:12:14

News to me too. It's certainly not my experience. What odd ramblings indeed.

passedgo Tue 24-Sep-13 13:05:16

The experiment I referred to showed that projects are mre effective when run by a combimation of men snd women. Too much competition resulted in narrow minded thinking and resemtment from the 'losers'.

It proved that you need both for best results.

SarahStrattonIsBackForJustABit Tue 24-Sep-13 13:32:33

I'll confess I've not read the whole thread, but I'm one of those women who gets on better with men. Although, having said that, there's an awful lot of asshole men about.

I think I've probably just had bad luck, but I can count on one hand the number of women I've physically met (as opposed to all the lovely online MNers) in my life, who have not back stabbed, bitched, and been out to use me for whatever gain they can get.

I do appreciate that it's more likely that it's because I'm a massive pushover, and attract not very nice people, but I do completely understand what women mean when they say they don't get on with other women. I simply don't trust them. I trust men nearly as little, but I've never had a man back stab, bitch, or gossip to the extent that I have experienced with women.

I'll emphasise again, for good measure, that I'm pretty certain it's me that's at fault. And I'll confess that I don't really trust anyone.

passedgo Wed 25-Sep-13 02:06:28

Good god I never saw you as a pushover, how strange.

It might be that women don't like you because of your confidence. I usually precede the word bitch with'insecure'. The two go together.

The truth is that women are morr concerned with being popular than men, that comes before productivity, effectiveness or even morals.

Passedgo, that's an awful way to think about half the human race. Do you include yourself in that?

lavenderhoney Wed 25-Sep-13 04:04:57

We invited a couple round, my dh knew him from work. His dw came in, sat down, accepted a drink, and after about 10 minutes chatting said " I don't normally get on with women, but you seem alright"

I wasn't sure if this was a compliment or not tbhsmile I just laughed. She said women found it hard to accept she wasnt after their dh, tossing her hair back and giggling as she said so.

I'm afraid I laughed like a drainsmile it was quite entertaining actually. Her dh even said it was nice for his dw to find another woman who she could talk to as it was difficult for her as she was so beautiful. My dh nearly spat his drink outsmile

she was ok really, and didnt have dc. I think the reality of babies and needing women friends in her situation might change her, i don't know.

TartanRug Wed 25-Sep-13 04:11:22

How can anyone say that a percentage of women/men are a certain way, that's ridiculous.

I work with a woman who claims she does not get on with other women because she believes they are all jealous of her. Its actually because she's never particularly nice to the women at work yet bends over backwards for any of the men. She has also never shagged any of the women but will happily tell you which of the men she's shagging at that point.

Fecklessdizzy Wed 25-Sep-13 09:44:20

This thread has really opened my eyes. Every single individual that ever done me wrong was a human being of some sort. Bastards. I'm only going to hang out with lizards from now on.

NoComet Wed 25-Sep-13 12:57:48

Women as real friends are great, as colleagues and acquaintances they can be judgmental, competitive, gossipy and untrust worthy.

As casual acquaintances men are far nicer.

The only two real cunts I have ever met were, sadly, female.

NoComet Wed 25-Sep-13 12:58:35

Make that 2.5, I can think of another woman who tries very hard.

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