to wonder why gentle parents are often anything but?

(105 Posts)
ohforblardysake Thu 19-Sep-13 18:36:22

I breastfeed, use cloth nappies, co sleep, baby led wean, etc etc. It's what feels right for me but I recognise that everyone does it differently and what works for one doesn't work for everyone.

I joined a few gentle parenting sites on Facebook and have one by one unliked them over the last few months as they are all so horrible! I hoped to see from them just posts and articles about things that interest me in terms of bfing, cosleeping,etc, but instead they are just judgey and horrible.

One recently had a thread absolutely slating women who have pain relief in childbirth. Another full of women going on about how they are having unassisted births and laughing at those who have hospital births as stupid scared,and hoodwinked and not understanding how birth REALLY works. The latest one full of horrible crap about formula feeding, here

https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Alpha-Parent/168640486536470

There is nothing gentle about any of them - they are judgey, spiteful and nasty. Feel quite disillusioned!

Nancy66 Thu 19-Sep-13 18:39:58

"Weak mothers act to satisfy their needs, strong mothers their duties"

as their mission statement/motto

They sound like a bunch of po-faced cunts to be perfectly honest

YouTheCat Thu 19-Sep-13 18:44:07

Not clicking on the link for the sake of my bloop pressure. grin

They do sound like a bunch of twats though.

DragonsAreReal Thu 19-Sep-13 18:45:12

Why would you think Alpha parents would be gentle? Alpha means top dog I think.

namechangesforthehardstuff Thu 19-Sep-13 18:46:13

Oh for God's sake this again?

Really?

Surely there can't be that many people out there joining 'gentle parenting groups' only to find themselves 'disillusioned' by the horrible bitches they encounter? Or have I stepped back in time to August?

Fairylea Thu 19-Sep-13 18:46:32

Well I'm the polar opposite of you in terms of choices smile .. I bottle fed from birth, babies in their own rooms from 8 weeks (yes I know and understand Sids advice before someone says), use disposable nappies, babies both hated slings and I tried loads so went straight into the pram etc etc....
Oh and I fed puree!
And had a c section by choice for non medical reasons.

BUT - I am completely open minded about people's choices. What worked for me doesn't necessarily mean it will work for everyone or mean that that is what other people should do. I'd never ever assume to tell anyone what they should do with their children unless they were literally doing them serious harm! smile

In my experience it is often people who are not entirely comfortable with their own choices who seek to bring down others... that or they are just bonkers and on some mission to save the world.

I'm a gentle parent smile I probably don't fit into any of your groups though!

FastWindow Thu 19-Sep-13 18:46:40

grin at bloop pressure.

ohforblardysake Thu 19-Sep-13 18:52:12

Gentle parenting is their term, not mine - obviously any parent could be classed as gentle, I'm just saying that it's a joke as they're so vicious!

Namechanges, sorry I don't know what you mean - perhaps there was another thread about this and that's what you mean.

DragonsAreReal Thu 19-Sep-13 18:52:21

I don't see why all this really matters tbh, I don't believe bf or ff impacts them significantly in later life, and I don't care what others did or do. I only care about what was best for me and my babies now children.

The only thing about different styles of early years parenting I have ever noticed a difference on (worked in nursery's that took babies from 6 months and my own and friends dc) is ones who promote independence or not. The ones who could self settle, entertain themselves to a degree seemed the happiest, cheerfullest (is that even a word?) and up the years most bright and intelligent.

TheYamiOfYawn Thu 19-Sep-13 19:00:37

I think YABU for expecting nothing but fluffy sweetness and light on a group consisting mostly of sleep deprived horizontally fluctuating new mothers on the internet.

namechangesforthehardstuff Thu 19-Sep-13 19:03:02

Yes, there was another thread about this.

It was very long.

People mostly seemed to come in to:

a. complain about people judging others' parenting
b. complain about how 'gentle parenting' types parent
c. complain about how the children of 'gentle parenting' types behave badly
d. complain about the how the children of 'gentle parenting' types behave like little Stepford children

There was no apparent irony in this.

It was very long.

Really really long.

But it was August so that was kind of OK because things usually settle down a bit in September.

Do please feel free to look for it. I would link but the will to live seems to have gone

PoopMaster Thu 19-Sep-13 19:05:35

Unassisted births as a choice? Are they mad?!! shock

I speak as someone who had an unassisted birth (no, wonderful as he was DH does NOT count), but that was just how it turned out. I don't even think we were particularly "lucky" that nothing went wrong, but still...surely it's just responsible to have someone there with equipment just in case!

parkin2010 Thu 19-Sep-13 19:08:41

Not judging but I bet before I click on the link they are all a bunch of mingers ;) ;)

namechangesforthehardstuff Thu 19-Sep-13 19:09:55

Must...hide...thread...

SaucyJack Thu 19-Sep-13 19:10:32

What else do you expect? If they feel strongly enough about a perceived parenting style to want to spend all day on Fuckbook blithering on about it, then I doubt their opinions are going to be particularly moderate.

SaucyJack Thu 19-Sep-13 19:11:21

And "gentle parenting" is a stupid and offensive term.

parkin2010 Thu 19-Sep-13 19:14:25

Had a look. I can't tell if they are minging or not because every one has a profile picture of their child as they have now ceased to have a functioning identity of their own now they have had a kid ;) ;)
nothing to envy from that lot at all, I love the irony of their name too haha!!!

namechangesforthehardstuff Thu 19-Sep-13 19:18:26

They're just people making choices and talking about them. Like we do on here. I honestly don't get why there's another thread about this.

Is it just one person who's been savaged by someone with a sling?

Kamchatka Thu 19-Sep-13 19:18:41

From having been on here for years and years, it's clear that people who get frothy at the mouth about these things have undiagnosed mental health problems (most likely PND) and it comes out as an extremely strong need to control people extend what is consuming them most at the time (feeding, mainly) to all people, i.e. to try to make their environment fit them to make them more comfortable at a time when they feel lost in the world.

Clearly if you are un-joining these groups you most likely don't recognise that feeling, and tbh I would just let it all go and get on with life.

Bamboobambino Thu 19-Sep-13 19:21:35

I had planned section for my DTs, formula feed and use disposable nappies. I don't use slings.
I think I'd make them very upset indeed if I joined their little group smile

thebody Thu 19-Sep-13 19:22:13

I think some people just never really grow up and so need a support group to tell them what to do.

but like a parent really with a child only most if us grow up, do our own thing and understand others do what's best for them.

it's a bit sad really.

thebody Thu 19-Sep-13 19:23:57

to add the term 'baby led weaning, gentle parenting and attached parenting are all totally meaningless shite really arnt they? but sell books to the bewildered and sheep like.

namechangesforthehardstuff Thu 19-Sep-13 19:28:19

Zero irony. Zero.

thebody Thu 19-Sep-13 19:31:14

can I start a weak mothers group as I kind of like to satisfy my needs.

I need wine and cake any one join me?

parkin2010 Thu 19-Sep-13 19:38:44

Me!!!! Im a shit mother because I work and go to the gym and stuff ;)

thebody Thu 19-Sep-13 19:42:22

so do I and dds had Chips for tea. from the chippie !! day off today and mumsnetted most if it so didn't clean or iron.

dd 14 forged my signature on her planner as I forgot to sign it last night. resourceful girl!!

just had a glass on a Thursday night and couldn't give a crap.

RoonilWazlibWuvsHermyown Thu 19-Sep-13 19:44:22

I think there's quite a few women out there who need the reassurance of other nasty twats to feel like they are doing a good job. I see it on fb sometimes where they pile on to someone's status trying to "educate" someone who did not even ask for advice. I think its the only way some of them cope in the early days, by trying to make other people feel worse than they do.

Weegiemum Thu 19-Sep-13 20:01:01

Many many years ago ..... (2000) ..... I was in an "attachment parent" email group (do these even exist anymore?).

I was an EBF-er, cloth nappier, co-sleeper etc.

I got thrown off because there was a consensus that by vaccinating I was "violating" my children's integrity.

Fair enough - bye!

GogoGobo Thu 19-Sep-13 20:09:20

Just had a quick skim through.....felt particular warmth and empathy from the mum posting a few mins ago saying if you don't breast feed your baby should be allowed to die as you are too week to perpetuate.

Therealamandaclarke Thu 19-Sep-13 20:17:19

I never cease to be saddened and surprised by the horrible things that women say about each other. And in particular those things that one mother might say about another's parenting.

carovioletfizz Thu 19-Sep-13 20:36:42

Just seen the post about letting your baby die, too, awful.hmm

mrsjay Thu 19-Sep-13 20:40:26

say what you feel nancy66 dont hold back now grin

I dont go on any of these sites but I see some friends sharing stuff and tbh it is really aggressive and nasty and some of the comments about nonbreastfeeding mothers is down right insulting, gentle my arse

Oh my several gods. Just clicked on that FB link and found that three of my friends like the page!

RiotsNotDiets Thu 19-Sep-13 20:53:20

jeez! And we're meant to be a nest of vipers?

Lilacroses Thu 19-Sep-13 20:53:39

That site is so horrible. I was quite interested in it to start with but the tone is bullying and completely judgemental. I don't blame you at all for feeling like that.

Mothering is a marathon not a sprint. The aim is independence and being part of society in a useful way.

This? More bollocks than I can ever express in words.

Fuck off and get a job would be my advice to anyone using that page (including the friend that likes it..)

gordyslovesheep Thu 19-Sep-13 20:57:27

yes The Body grin I have wine and peanuts

thebody Thu 19-Sep-13 20:57:32

who the actual fuck are these parents/women?

letting your baby die??? Actually was setting out to laugh at this thread with op but but now am really shocked.

I often wondered about the nazi mothers living in the camps married to the guards who nurtured their own children and watched other women's children be starved and gassed.

sorry if that's ott but just shocked to the core by this.

EntWife Thu 19-Sep-13 20:57:46

sounds like rich pickings for sanctimommy

https://m.facebook.com/profile.php?id=523533471000365

HangingGardenofBabbysBum Thu 19-Sep-13 20:58:50

That's absolutely given me the biggest snigger I've had in hours.

Fabulous irony-free berks.

I cannot imagine their stomach-dropping horror when their wee one spits out the nipple, pops into the real world and cones back with a biscuit and some opinions.

Do you think they keep doing smug posts once the kids can formulate a sentence using the words 'own, saddo, life, get, fucking, your.'

gordyslovesheep Thu 19-Sep-13 21:01:21

although I may have a glass of 'man milk' confused since, according to that page, men can produce milk if they try hard enough hmm

thebody Thu 19-Sep-13 21:01:26

brilliant Gordy, lets turn faces to the sun and ignore the mentalists. grin

gordyslovesheep Thu 19-Sep-13 21:02:11

men and women can produce milk without having had a baby. It takes time and dedication but you can do it. I know I had barely any milk, from a csection for 2 months and had to use formula. However I kept with it and did not stop breastfeeding and now I have enough milk that she barely needs formula

Yup - lets all go back to the middle ages in terms of childbirth, that sounds utopian.

AmandaPandtheNightmareMonsters Thu 19-Sep-13 21:07:38

I am quite lentil weavey in my parenting. I don't blether about it because it is boring.

Honestly, the reason you get sanctimonious rubbish is that there isn't actually that much to say about most of these topics. Yes, you might have issues or questions from time to time, but you're better off asking as specific question on one of these boards. General facebook pages are always highly likely to be full of people obsessed and over-invested in how they parent. And when you are obsessed and over-invested, you tend to turn smug and bitchy. Which isn't pleasant to watch.

AmandaPandtheNightmareMonsters Thu 19-Sep-13 21:08:54

Man milk? That sounds like a horrid, horrid sexual euphemism gordy. <boak>

If men can produce milk if they try hard enough then I think that the blame (if any) for my DD being FF lies entirely with my DH for not trying hard enough. Though it would have been quite a hairy experience for DD.

namechangesforthehardstuff Thu 19-Sep-13 21:12:29

No, not them no irony.

<Gives up>

<Hides thread>

plentyofsoap Thu 19-Sep-13 21:23:36

Man milk. I will inform my dh as I am due soon.

GogoGobo Thu 19-Sep-13 21:52:17

But only if he puts a bit of effort in plentyofsoap!

thebody Thu 19-Sep-13 22:16:11

man milk!!! ffs

midori1999 Thu 19-Sep-13 22:32:10

I think the problem, OP, is that 'The Alpha Parent' is not a gentle parenting group at all. It started as a blog and the blog writer now also has a Facebook page. The clue is in the name...

I am a member of one 'gentle parenting' Facebook page and none of the mentioned bitching or nastiness goes on. Perhaps as its a smallish, 'secret' group so only those invited can find it and they have to be recommended by someone?

DuelingFanjo Thu 19-Sep-13 22:59:45

Wasn't there a thread exactly the same a few weeks ago?

DuelingFanjo Thu 19-Sep-13 23:03:44
DuelingFanjo Thu 19-Sep-13 23:07:46

Actually I meant this one.

thebody Thu 19-Sep-13 23:09:55

what's gentle parenting?

genuine question.

4 kids and we are late 40s. baffled by the term.

Saffyz Thu 19-Sep-13 23:14:02

They're fundamentalist about their views, which gives normal parents who've chosen those options a bad name.

Rolypolyroll Fri 20-Sep-13 00:38:49

Agree it's not really a 'gentle parenting' site. Moto 'the snobby side of parenting'. FFS.

Rolypolyroll Fri 20-Sep-13 00:40:08

Duelling - there was another that went for pages too.

namechangeforareasonablereason Fri 20-Sep-13 00:45:16

I am in the local gentle parenting group. Alpha Parents is not a GP/AP site.

In our group we have breast and bottle feeders, sling wearers and pram users, hospital and home births all parents and other interested parties, grand parents etc, are welcome.

In the main Gentle Parents do not use harsh discipline techniques, such as the naughty step or time out - things that exclude a child for their behaviour and do not use controlled crying or cry it out techniques and absolutely no smacking, our group welcome those who have used those techniques and seek better methods.

There is no bitchiness and judging, in fact quite the opposite.

The one divisive topic is vaccination, so we don't chat about that.

I have had the most horrendous 20 months and this group has literally saved my sanity. Its about seeing children as people with views and feelings, and not wanting to train their emotions out of them.

namechangeforareasonablereason Fri 20-Sep-13 00:46:29

A blog such as this would be more reflective of gentle parenting.

here

ohforblardysake Fri 20-Sep-13 08:09:28

and this one probably isn't too gentle but is very funny and I love it.
www.scarymommy.com/

MiaowTheCat Fri 20-Sep-13 08:54:17

Its the alpha parent, probably the nastiest mummy site on the internet and one of the vilest trolls I've come across. She gets her kicks in distressing people and doing shit like photo shopping baby bottles in coffins or the one full of chips which just made me wonder what size teat you'd need to get them back out of there.

Basically she gets her kicks out of being a bitch and laying into anyone who doesn't achieve 100% parenting 'perfection'. I find that thinking her kids are running riot shoved in front of the telly while she engages in her internet mommy warfare to be a more amusing way to deal with the shit that site pedals, which inevitably gets picked up by others so becomes hard to avoid.

mrsjay Fri 20-Sep-13 08:54:29

*what's gentle parenting?

genuine question.

4 kids and we are late 40s. baffled by the term.*
I think it is where you do not shout and allow your child do grow and develop at their own pace whilst loving them and trying to be placid and kind,

a parent minus the cross face then grin

early 40s 2 grown up (almost) dds so glad there was no parenting styles when mine were babies,

mrsjay Fri 20-Sep-13 08:56:29

I have just clicked the link and i have just seen a friend has liked this page I am a wee bit hmm about it because i couldn't see the friend being involved with anything that is so harsh and down right abusive

PenelopePipPop Fri 20-Sep-13 09:44:19

That Alpha Parent page has to be a wind-up no? It is clearly written by a divorced 36 year old called Joel who lives in Austin Tx, works as a software engineer and only sees his 4 year old son Finn once a month because it takes so long to drive to Baltimore where his ex now lives very happily with her new girlfriend who lets Finn eat MacDonalds and watch the Disney channel for hours on end.

He writes it because he hates his ex so much for taking Finn away from him. So he wants every woman in the world to feel as shit about their parenting choices as he wants his ex to feel about herself. The tragedy being that now she isn't with Joel she feels just fine, and couldn't give a flying fuck about baby milk.

mrsjay Fri 20-Sep-13 09:47:20

nope it isn't I have been reading the facebook page like this shock horrible comments and really bizarre and sinister views

Charlottehere Fri 20-Sep-13 09:50:45

I too have breast fed, co-slept, carry DS in a sling often, had one water birth etc but that's MY choice. They are twunts.

I also have and do formula feed, had three hospital births, 2 fully drugged up grin, put DS in his cot to sleep if he will settle, mostly MY choice again apart from DS's birth...wanted to have him at home but had diabetes.sad

mrsjay Fri 20-Sep-13 09:51:01

actually reading some of the comments some of the women give the alpha mummy a pasting so maybe people liking the page is a good thing although If they dont agree with her ethos why do they like the page at all

Charlottehere Fri 20-Sep-13 09:51:08

Meant to say one water home birth.

TheBigJessie Fri 20-Sep-13 10:04:32

SaucyJack has it in one:

What else do you expect? If they feel strongly enough about a perceived parenting style to want to spend all day on Fuckbook blithering on about it, then I doubt their opinions are going to be particularly moderate.

Therealamandaclarke Fri 20-Sep-13 10:11:39

The thing is that some aspects of "parenting" are choices (approaches to weaning, types of nappies) and some might not be.
A woman might choose to have a home water birth and because of obstetric complications end up with an instrumental hospital delivery.
A woman might choose to ff, or she might choose to bf and find that for whatever reason, she ends up ff her baby.
It's so pointless to vehemently criticise someone on the basis of what type of nappy they use. It's like devoting a forum to slating each other's choice of skinny or boot cut jeans.
And it's so unkind, verging on cruel, to be critical about he method by which a baby is born. Given what I said above. IMHO.
There was a thread not so long ago where some posters were being derisive about the size of other ppl's changing bag. FFS. Will we never learn? What the hell is that all about?

Therealamandaclarke Fri 20-Sep-13 10:20:30

Think some of it is driven by evert islets. I have a selection of prams and slings. When I was shopping online for my first sling (which I loved- oh those early baby weeks) I felt like I was being enticed into a new religion. There was so much waffle that had nothing to do with informing me about the product (laundry temp or max baby weight) and everything to do with selling a lifestyle of baby wearing.
Formula adverts ate all about lifestyle. Subtle image changes in the C&G one "hint" at ff being the choice if you want to be you get and have more energy and not be shackled to your baby. The SMA one has a different message but it's all there, under the surface. I reckon we're being sold much of our attitude by manufacturers and marketing and it serves only to unline our pockets and turn us against each other.
<hops off soapbox> blush

Therealamandaclarke Fri 20-Sep-13 10:21:13

evert islets ?
Advertisers. Sorry.

Kamchatka Fri 20-Sep-13 10:25:24

It's about powerlessness.

You have your first baby and the feeling of powerlessness hits you like a brick. You have no autonomy all of a sudden, chances are your partner is out working and carrying on as normal, your past life continues without you, your brain is in tatters from hormones and lack of sleep...Who knows.

You need a bit of control. Feeding a baby becomes about control, birth choices, nappies, your kit, your environment: you can control all these things, and virtually nothing else. It incenses you to see people doing things differently because YOU have found the way to make it all good again, and how dare they challenge that? A laid-back parent who has decided that disposable nappies are great when you have gone to the trouble of sourcing an organic hemp nappy system and are doing five loads of washing a day: that is a challenge to what has become the only way you can assert yourself now. If someone doesn't see that the hours and hours that YOU put into breastfeeding are worth something dammit (perhaps by flagellating themselves regularly, or posting sad threads about how they have 'failed', as it is also known) then it feels like a personal attack on YOU and anyway there's a ton of skewed literature to back you up, isn't there? (Yes, but it is propaganda.)

So you cling to what you wrongly perceive as your power and prestige, and every refusal to go along with you makes you angry. But because you are trained not to show anger, and perhaps you don't understand that this anger is misplaced anyway, you channel it in the form of snippy, perhaps humorous but actually nasty and triggering comments to strangers on the internet.

ShowOfHands Fri 20-Sep-13 10:30:25

Oh lordy, they band together and hunt in packs do they? How interesting.

I'm about as hippy as they come. I'm made mainly of patchwork and reek of patchouli and knit my own muesli for breakfast.

But I have just had to hide somebody on FB for precisely this sort of tripe. She's just had her first baby, natural delivery and no drugs. Lucky lady, she enjoyed it, baby is well, I congratulated her. She's gone totally mad. If she'd posted any more links or any more statuses about how all babies deserve a mother who makes the effort to birth naturally and to say no to intervention, I'd have Said Something. Did you know that in this day and age, there's no reason to ever need a cs. We're damaging our babies by consenting to them and we just need to be stronger. I mean my emcs were because I had an undiagnosed problem with my pelvis which made birthing a baby vaginally impossible. But if I'd cared more, if I were stronger, presumably I'd have attempted some DIY orthopaedic surgery at the point my babies became wedged in my misshapen pelvis. It's only what they deserve.

I'm just resolved now to believe that people in any parenting camp can be ignorant or lacking in common sense. If they don't understand that people are different and choices are precisely that, then who am I to challenge the fabric of their existence. I like that they're banding together though. It's easier to ringfence them.

Kamchatka Fri 20-Sep-13 10:38:05

The birth one is complicated because the system is fucked up sometimes and some midwives are horrors, and really there's nothing wrong in wanting that to be better. But it is a political and a feminist thing, not a personal thing: going at it by denigrating what you perceive as the 'quality threshold' that women apparently choose (read that on the charming AlphaMummy page) is just lazy and unpleasant.

Therealamandaclarke Fri 20-Sep-13 10:38:09

Kamchatka I think there is some truth there. Good point.
I love breastfeeding. And at times it has been tough but I feel I've made a commitment and that's what I'm doing until DD stops. (fixated? Maybe)
But I was wondering if I might have made different choices if my circumstances were different. If we had anyone to babysit (ever) I might chosen to give some formula so I could go out, have drink, whatever. This is not an option though so there's really no significant personal benefit to me in ff. obviously if bf hadn't worked out that would be different. But our choices are complex. I can see why ppl want to talk about them and have their views validated. But it's so unpleasant to basically bitch about ppl who do things differently.

WaspInTheHouse Fri 20-Sep-13 10:38:19

Someone I know in real life posts on that Facebook page shock I wish I hadn't looked now.

WaspInTheHouse Fri 20-Sep-13 10:42:55

Kamchatka Interesting post, I hadn't thought in those terms before.

MoominsYonisAreScary Fri 20-Sep-13 10:44:45

How sad, some of them sound totally barking

Therealamandaclarke Fri 20-Sep-13 10:46:56

showofhands your post resonates with me.
(bith story alert. Sorry)
I really wanted a home birth with my PFB. I was determined to avoid admission to hospital, not because I felt it made me a better person, but because I knew that the postnatal care would be shit and ruin the early days for me.
Got to 7cm in pool at home. Loving it. The next thing I know it's ambulance - hospital - theatre - forceps - 3rd degree tear - permanently scarred baby, bla bla bla.
And then seven fucking hellish days in hospital with all my fears about on care confirmed. It still makes me cry when I speak about it.
I haven't been back to my local baby clinic since I encountered a woman boasting about how well she had managed. Maybe I was over sensitive and should have just been happy for her. Probably. Maybe not, given what some ppl in these groups are saying.I don't have a fb account. grin

Kamchatka Fri 20-Sep-13 10:49:17

Therealamandaclarke It isn't being fixated to actually do the thing. We're all doing parental stuff! But I think the word 'commitment' is interesting because it is very loaded. As you rightly point out, if you had needed or wanted to do things different, would that have therefore been less of a commitment?

I don't think so, myself.

ShakeAndVac Fri 20-Sep-13 10:50:03

I've clicked and had a quick read at that page. Then clicked off again as I could feel my blood pressure rising and I was starting to get the RAGE.
What a pile of bollocks.--Must sit on hands, must sit on hands--

ShakeAndVac Fri 20-Sep-13 10:50:25

Ooops, such a big rage I've had an epic strike out fail, lol grin

Therealamandaclarke Fri 20-Sep-13 10:55:59

Good point kam I used the word "commitment" because of a conversation with my friend last week about bf. we both bf our PFB for about 2 yrs. and I was complaining about not drinking grin
I know the odd glass is ok but it's often not worth the effort.i was missing being able to just sink half a bottle withsunday lunch. So in some ways, for me it has been a commitment to feed a certain way.
But I don't mean to suggest that this makes me any more committed as a parent IYSWIM.

I had a pain relief free first birth because a week's worth of on-off contractions had me fully dilated when we got to hospital and I realised I'd gone through transition in the car on the way there. (Whilst having to give dp directions as at 3am that morning the motorway junction for the hospital was closed!!). Each night when I phoned up the hospital in agony they said 'oh it doesn't sound like you're ready to come in yet'.

Waters had not gone, ended up at the end of transition stage having waters broken, blood tests taken off babys head while he was still up there, followed by ventouse as it was deemed quicker than getting me in for emergency csection.

The only pain relief I had through all that was a local jab for the stitching up after episiotomy!

Am I proud of myself? No it was fekking agony. Do I boast about it? Only in the most jokey way, cos I certainly wouldn't have had it that way if there were any other options.

When I found out I was pg with ds2 I had to have a counselling session with a midwife because I was so terrified of giving birth again. Then I had it put on my notes that this time I would be turning up at hospital from the first contraction.... so I'd be in time for all the industrial strength pain releif the hopsital could offer.

DS2 was a large transverse baby so I had elcs. So I guess I failed that time didn't I, if some people's idea of not failing is that you spend a week trying to push a baby out that's stuck sidesways confused

There is a mum like these at our school. Had another baby 2 years ago, it was always in a sling, didn't seem to get a chance to toddle round the playground like the other younger siblings! But then I saw her one weekend with baby in a PRAM at a supermarket in the next town! It was so funny how on seeing me she immediately pulled the baby out of the buggy and put it in the sling, then tried to make out the pram was for her older child to push her teddy round in grin

Kamchatka Fri 20-Sep-13 11:06:28

No, you don't sound like a swivel-nippled loon at all grin therealamandaclarke.

Some people do get it arse-about-face though. It's cognitive dissonance played out in a public forum. I breastfeed, and I would not do a worthless thing, therefore breastfeeding must be extremely valuable and I MUST MAKE PEOPLE SEE THIS.

(For the record, I don't think it's worthless, it's lovely and a Good Thing and free etc)

mrsjay Fri 20-Sep-13 11:17:20

what gets me about THAT page and other views like it they go on about compassion but there is no compassion non whatsoever formula is poison not breastfeeding is child abuse, letting your baby lie in a cot on their own is neglect and damaging development, and the thing is they believe all that rubbish and they wouldn't know child abuse or neglect if it hit them in the face it makes me so angry

ShowOfHands Fri 20-Sep-13 11:23:56

Therealamandaclarke, my lovely, have you had any help with how you're feeling? I did the same as you. I wanted a home waterbirth because it was what was right for me. I went through the starting at home in water, whisked to hospital in a blue light ambulance, a load of intervention and a final emcs with a bleeding, torn, muscle-damaged little girl (she's absolutely fine now). And the postnatal care? Bwahahahaha? Care? Hmmmmmmmmm.

I think I probably went through a lot of what you're going through. I couldn't talk about the whole thing without crying (particularly the postnatal care which was shambolic). It robbed me of months of my life with my new baby because I felt all sort of things. Ashamed, shocked, traumatised, guilt-ridden. And when people talked about their beautiful, drug free, trauma-free deliveries, something inside me curled up and died and I weeped and ached for what I thought was my own failure.

It took me a long time to seek help and I should have done it sooner. I think what happens is that you fall into the tumbling chasm between what you wanted and what actually happened. And you end up raw and vulnerable and you have this massive, lifechanging thing happen to you and instead of being able to couch it in these positive terms, you physically can't talk about it because it wasn't what you wanted and expected and then you hear other people glowing about their own experiences and you are floored. The thing is, those people were lucky. They had a brilliant, positive experience and they want to share it. It's just you aren't able to hear about it because you're hurt. What I realised after a lot of help, time and some healing was that they are you. Just the you that you used to be. You went into the birth and delivery of your baby with hopes, with choices and an expectation of a level of care. And had it all worked out, you'd have skipped out of it all perhaps still feeling positive and glowing and singing the praises of that home water birth. Instead it didn't work out and you were let down by substandard care.

I am actually in a place where I can feel really pleased for people who had a good time of it because they really are bloody lucky. Silly people who make value judgements about other people on the other hand? They are just silly people. They merely have a new topic in which to wax silly.

mrsjay - EXACTLY. ff or bf, cot or co-sleeping - whatever! Really, any difference it might or might not make is fucking miniscule.

How about focusing all that effort on working with social services to improve the lives of neglected children if you want to feel superior to other parents? Obviously just not as 'fun'.

MiaowTheCat Fri 20-Sep-13 12:10:17

DD1 was in a sling loads - could see the approving glances from other women in the street as I passed them.

DD2 - by then I had a totally fucked pelvis and she hated (still does) being constrained in a sling or swaddle - the child could take up a full double bed sprawled out as a small baby... pushchair and looks of doom.

I don't believe I had a shite mother implant fitted between number 1 and 2 - I was just truly baby led and however much I loved slings and the like - the baby led me to where she could sprawl out and get what SHE wanted - but because I didn't fit into the narrow set of "good mummy" tickboxes by some evangelistic nutters - I'm a "bad mother" apparently.

Nah - I'd call forcing a child into something they didn't want to be in in order to make myself fit into some mummy clique (and that's all it is) being the bad mum.

The Alpha Parent is good for demonstrating how women's worst enemy can be and continues to be other women. I would say I'd like FB to pull the page, but actually I think it serves people better standing as an example of the vile level of the shit that gets hurled around the bloody internet when it comes to parenting choices.

Therealamandaclarke Fri 20-Sep-13 19:43:09

Showofhands no, I haven't had any help with it. Can you tell? grin
Thank you for your kind words.
It gets better over time. And I know I am very lucky to have two healthy (touch wood) DCs. I am genuinely pleased for anyone who has a trauma- free or even pleasurable birth. I just wish that it wasn't seen as a sort of failing or character flaw to have needed some intervention. You know, if I had tried harder i could have just pushed him out.
Thank you.

namechangeforareasonablereason Fri 20-Sep-13 20:06:44

a mummy clique - love it - thats all it is is it

I find the GP mummies amazing, when every one else let us down, when every one else turned away, this mummy clique, this group of strangers opened their arms and their hearts, picked me up and helped put me back together again

I have found, that because they are more in tune with feelings - because they are a "bunch of hippies", they are also more accepting, admittedly this is just one small GP group, in one small part of the UK, but they are the least judgemental parents I have ever met

The home birthing group I am in also encourages mums who have had birth trauma, and hospital birth - we dont turn our backs on people you know

I find the turning up your nose at people just because they dont parent the same way as you wrong and there is a lot of it going on on this thread

Kamchatka Fri 20-Sep-13 20:32:09

therealamandaclarke - it's upsetting that people can be so wrong as to imply that anyone giving birth hasn't done anything other than the best they can in the circumstances. It just defies belief that people can't imagine that their nicely-positioned baby and lovely encouraging midwife whose shift coincides with their whole labour is actually not a gift that is given to all women. Birth is fantastically complex at the best of times, and with the best will in the world, aftercare tends to be poor. I hope you do find a way to exorcise the whole experience and lessen its power somehow.

Therealamandaclarke Fri 20-Sep-13 21:24:20

thanks Kamchatka

NayFindus Fri 20-Sep-13 22:08:09

I breastfed, co-slept, did baby led weaning and cloth nappies. I had to put lemon juice on my breasts to get the little blighter off them at 2 yrs 3 months. She screams if she wakes up and I'm not there. She eats sod all but Magnum ice creams, which dh doles out like wet wipes and which appear to have given her an allergic reaction to dairy products. And I was too bloody tired to use the half ton of cloth nappies I have in the end, or the Didymos slings at £100 a time.

I'm still knackered. And I want a divorce. I mean too knackered to join Facebook, but it's no wonder they're all bitches. I could quite happily kill people. Really. Quite happily.

namechangeforareasonablereason Fri 20-Sep-13 22:37:42

Nay that made me laugh - sorry if it wasnt meant to - spec they are all bitches.

I shall cling to my group - they are all lovely.

ShowOfHands Sat 21-Sep-13 09:43:05

Nay. grin Oh dear. If I put lemon juice on my nipples, 2yo ds would feed even more. He loves raw lemons. I'm going to nip across to one of these groups on Facebook and ask them what bitter, non-poisonous substance they all recommend to use to induce bfing aversion.

You wouldn't have to kill everybody you know? Today, I'd take half.

carovioletfizz Sun 22-Sep-13 16:09:45

Just noticed the Alpha Parent has a forum.
www.thealphaparentforum.com/viewforum.php?f=9&sid=b59001f7eb9fbc1c41b0b06dad77afc5
If you think their FB page is bad....
There's a section on crap parenting.
One of the topics is, having children by many different fathers.
I've left my own comment on this on their FB page. Horrors.
https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Alpha-Parent/168640486536470

neunundneunzigluftballons Sun 22-Sep-13 16:21:41

There is absolutely no need to go on gentle parenting sites to watch women sling mud at one another you can come on here instead. The irony of this thread. Women on the internet are very judgmental. In fact I have experienced many judgegy pants men on other sites to just not parenting ones. Should we be concerned that men don't engage in competitive parenting on websites? Or maybe do they not give a shit how Dad next door is doing it.

carovioletfizz Sun 22-Sep-13 16:41:03

I do see what you are saying neu, that it's judgy to judge other people for being judgy.

The difference is, I'm not judging these women for their parenting choices. I'm judging them for being so completely vicious and horrible about how other people bring up their children.

JerseySpud Sun 22-Sep-13 16:43:14

Join Santicmommy.

It helps m Blood pressure dramatically

carovioletfizz Sun 22-Sep-13 16:44:35

will have a look!

neunundneunzigluftballons Sun 22-Sep-13 17:04:15

There are plenty of people engaging in the same behaviour on other threads on this site though carovioletfizz. There are downright nasties on the internet who I do not believe would act like that in real life. I like you went onto one of those gentle parent sites even though I have ff kids as well as bf ones. The ff went into their own room earlier than probably necessary, I always use disposable nappies. But a bit like here there are posters I ignore completely, threads I don't read but I have definitely have gotten the best bf info on those sites which is why I use them.

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