To speak to the school?

(1003 Posts)
Orchwoid Tue 17-Sep-13 17:47:32

I've just been to collect my son from his school and he's told me that he won't be cast in his school Christmas play but all the other children will.

I am fumming. I am going to go and speak to his teacher first thing tomorrow morning but I am so angry that I can't work out whether I'm being reasonable or not.

BellaVita Tue 17-Sep-13 17:48:25

I think you need to calm down first and gather a few facts before you go storming in.

notapizzaeater Tue 17-Sep-13 17:48:27

Did he say why ?

SantanaLopez Tue 17-Sep-13 17:48:33

My niece told me that she found a tiger in the jungle at school today.

Calm down and find out if it is true before charging in all guns blazing.

Souredstones Tue 17-Sep-13 17:48:36

Calm down. He might have the wrong end of the stick

YouTheCat Tue 17-Sep-13 17:48:36

Why won't he be cast?

How old is he? You sure he is right? Or that he hasn't opted out?

LIZS Tue 17-Sep-13 17:49:05

Are you sure he hasn't got the wrong end of things ? How old is he and why does he think this ?

DontmindifIdo Tue 17-Sep-13 17:49:34

Is it a punishment for something? In which case, have you had a letter home about it?

Orchwoid Tue 17-Sep-13 17:49:44

He is seven. They told him that he can't have a part. I am fumming because it's no fair and surely they have to give him a part when the rest of the school has one?,

YouTheCat Tue 17-Sep-13 17:50:15

But what was the reason?

Souredstones Tue 17-Sep-13 17:50:49

Has he behaviour issues? Not handed homework in? Shy?

Doesn't sound likely - I would speak to the teacher to get the full story.

Could it be a threat/ploy ... IF you don't then you won't be in the play?

WorraLiberty Tue 17-Sep-13 17:52:18

I think you'll find all kids in the class will be given some sort of part in the production...whether it's singing in the background or helping with props etc.

They can't always find an acting part for every child.

As others have said, calm down and speak to the teacher.

DontmindifIdo Tue 17-Sep-13 17:52:24

Will "all" the other children be taking part, or just his friends?

Ask nicely what's the situation is. Say you think there's been some confusion, be smiley and nice until you know if there's anything to be fuming about.

HeySoulSister Tue 17-Sep-13 17:52:47

Talking to 'the school' won't get you far, after all it's just bricks and mortar.... The teacher might offer more information though, so I would try that first!

SoupDragon Tue 17-Sep-13 17:53:15

Do you honestly believe they have given the whole school a part and told your DS he cAnt have one? Really?

I don't know if you're new to MN or a name changer but if you'd been here a whole you'd know that things like this are rarely 100% true.

Orchwoid Tue 17-Sep-13 17:53:23

I have joined this website for some good advice. Hello Louise :-)

He said that they said he couldn't have a part but he didn't say why.

I am so fumming because it is a new school and there Christmas play is supposed to be good even though we don't believe in God and all that shit. I was looking forward to watching him.

TheCatIsUpTheDuff Tue 17-Sep-13 17:54:21

Check it out, but it's not impossible. In my last year of primary they promised a part to all of year 6; all got parts except my best friend and me (and we were reasonably good kids, it wasn't a punishment). BF's mum took it up with the school, mine didn't, it didn't make any difference. Life isn't fair. As it happens, neither of us was that fussed, we helped behind the scenes.

complexnumber Tue 17-Sep-13 17:54:32

So every other child in the school has a part, apart from your son?


Yeah, that sounds plausible.

SantanaLopez Tue 17-Sep-13 17:54:51

we don't believe in God and all that shit

Woah. Lose the attitude before you go in or you will not get far.

Caitycat Tue 17-Sep-13 17:55:18

What dontmind says, there will be an explanation which will probably make you feel glad you didn't show how cross you were!

Souredstones Tue 17-Sep-13 17:55:36

You sound delightful

Wonder if his attitude is similar to yours

kilmuir Tue 17-Sep-13 17:55:44


YouTheCat Tue 17-Sep-13 17:56:27

If he has no idea why, then I'd say he has the wrong end of the stick or has half heard something.

Instead of going in all guns blazing, ready for a fight, how about just asking his teacher about the Christmas production?

Take all things said by 7 year olds unable to explain why, with a huge pinch of salt.

Or you will be in danger of becoming the shouty parent that teachers don't take seriously when there is a real issue.

Floggingmolly Tue 17-Sep-13 17:57:36

What do you mean, he didn't say why? Ask him!!!!

Orchwoid Tue 17-Sep-13 17:58:49

He says its because I said he couldn't be in the play but I never said that. The schol haven't got the right to do this to him. . There is nothing wrong with my atitude.

SoupDragon Tue 17-Sep-13 17:59:21

Have you formally withdrawn him from collective worship?

redskyatnight Tue 17-Sep-13 17:59:35

It's September. Why on earth is the teacher even thinking about casting the Christmas play?

I am sorry you are fuming and their Christmas play is so good. But if you storm in there telling them you don't believe in God and all that shit they are unlikely to take you seriously.

I also seriously, seriously doubt ONLY your ds has no part. So calm down, go in tomorrow and ask, nicely, what the story is.

Then fume to your heart's content if the situation warrants it.

gordyslovesheep Tue 17-Sep-13 18:00:22

maybe he told them he didn't believe in God and all that shit - so they didn't think he would care

redskyatnight Tue 17-Sep-13 18:00:42

Ah ok, so maybe you said to your DS something about "not believing in God and all that shit", he has repeated it to teacher and the teacher has said that children who are not believers don't have to take part in the play?

Floggingmolly Tue 17-Sep-13 18:01:09

Purely on the basis of your posts; they may have felt you might lower the tone if you were part of the audience? Because it's a Christmas play so there's a possibility God and shit might be mentioned?

Souredstones Tue 17-Sep-13 18:01:10

The school can do what they like.

Your son isn't entitled to a part.

Drop the attitude.

WorraLiberty Tue 17-Sep-13 18:02:31

He says its because I said he couldn't be in the play but I never said that.

Well if he lied to his teacher, why are you cross with the school? confused

Floralnomad Tue 17-Sep-13 18:02:44

YABU and there is a problem with your attitude if the way you react in RL is the same as the way you are reacting on this thread . Simply go in and speak to the teacher in a non confrontational manner .

SantanaLopez Tue 17-Sep-13 18:03:03

grin at 'the right' to be in the Christmas play.

Has he been told he can help behind the scenes/ be in the chorus or something rather than an actual part?

TheOriginalSteamingNit Tue 17-Sep-13 18:03:52

I wouldn't normally be a spelling nazi or whatever, but 'fumming' is delightful because it conjures up such impotent and ham-fisted jumping up and down with rage.

Orchwoid Tue 17-Sep-13 18:04:27

He said that they said that I said that he couldn't be in the play

Souredstones Tue 17-Sep-13 18:05:10

Can you swap him for a westlife cd?

BrokenSunglasses Tue 17-Sep-13 18:05:18

Go for it OP. Go and fumm at the school, and tell then that you were looking forward to watching him because you are quite capable of ignoring all the God Shit.

OldBagWantsNewBag Tue 17-Sep-13 18:05:24

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

soupdragon could be right if you have withdrawn him from assemblies etc then that would include Christmas play - hence teacher saying you have said he can't be in it. It is only Sept so they are hyper organised to be casting already in which case a calm discussion might solve the issue.

FannyMcNally Tue 17-Sep-13 18:06:08

Please go in 'fuming' tomorrow! I'd love to see your face when they say you told him he couldn't be in it!

Groovee Tue 17-Sep-13 18:06:24

I would stop, take a deep breath, and in the morning, go in calm and ask if they can clarify what he has said and if what he has said is true, ask to remove the clause which you may have inadvertedly withdrawn him from. It may be that you have signed a form saying you don't want his photograph taken when you thought it was that it was giving permission for the photograph to be taken. My friend did this without realising and her son was withdrawn from everything without her realising until we did a photo with PTA members children and her son was part of that and the school questioned it.

SoupDragon Tue 17-Sep-13 18:06:39

Have you formally withdrawn him from collective worship?

HangingGardenofBabbysBum Tue 17-Sep-13 18:06:53

there Christmas play is supposed to be good even though we don't believe in God and all that shit

So out of idle interest, what exactly do you celebrate at Christmas?

PatriciaHolm Tue 17-Sep-13 18:07:02

Your attitude comes over as very aggressive, and way too ready to fume about something with on the face if it is quite absurd. Go into school and politely ask; say DS said this but you don't think it can be true, can they clarify?

If you barge in shouting the odds no one is going to go out of their way to sort this out.

SoupDragon Tue 17-Sep-13 18:07:16

Because if you have, then you have said he can't be in the religious christmas play.

emuloc Tue 17-Sep-13 18:07:23

Oh I see you said he could not be in the play. That explains it then!!

HooverFairy Tue 17-Sep-13 18:07:24

I'm guessing the lack of respect for the fact it's a religious event may have something to do with it. Have you made any requests for your DS to be removed from collective worship? At my school we would assume that parents who choose not to participate in religious events would also opt out of parts in the Xmas play - with it including religion and all that shit.

Seriously, calm down and speak to the teacher. If you go in all wound up then when there is a real issue they won't take you seriously. Your DS might have got the wrong end of the stick, maybe it's being used as a behaviour thing or something.

Orchwoid Tue 17-Sep-13 18:07:26

He doesn't go to assemblys because I don't want them to teach him about religion or make him be forced to pray or sing any religion songs. But I never said he dcouldn'tt be in the Christmas play because that is a really important part of the school year in my head. I am still fumming that they didn't ask me first and just told him. It is so rude.

SoupDragon Tue 17-Sep-13 18:08:27

Ok then. It is your fault he has no part in the religious celebration of Christmas.

Souredstones Tue 17-Sep-13 18:08:29

Last I checked Christmas was a religious festival

You have removed your child from collective worship of 'God and shit'

You do the maths

YoureAllABunchOfBastards Tue 17-Sep-13 18:08:38


If it is a religious play, and you have asked for him not to be in religious activities, then that may be the case.

I am amazed they are even thinking about it yet.

You do come across as rather entitled, by the way. I think you'll find the school can do what they like. And if you came up and spoke to me in the tone you're typing in, I'd make damn sure he never got a speaking part ever.

LookingThroughTheFog Tue 17-Sep-13 18:08:43

I think you're a day ahead to be fuming. First, you need to check whether your son hasn't got the wrong end of the stick. Assuming he hasn't (I suspect he has) you need to find out why.

If you start out fuming before you have all the facts, you're going to do yourself a mischief.

SoupDragon Tue 17-Sep-13 18:09:01

The school is simply complying with your wishes.

MrsOakenshield Tue 17-Sep-13 18:09:07

YANBU to speak to the school, but please do so calmly. Sounds like there's been some confusion.

oh, and don't say anything about 'God and shit', you'll be doing him no favours whatsoever.

Sindarella Tue 17-Sep-13 18:09:08

That solves it then, you did say he couldnt be in it, its a play but also an assembly

YoureAllABunchOfBastards Tue 17-Sep-13 18:09:39

Ah, crossed posts.

The Christmas play does tend to be a little bit religious, you know. Ours often feature God and all that shit.

Orchwoid Tue 17-Sep-13 18:09:41

At Christmas all the family comes round and we have a chicken or a turkey dinner and give all the presents out from Santa Claus.

FannyMcNally Tue 17-Sep-13 18:09:43

I love the word fumming! I'm going to try and use it more often.

spiderlight Tue 17-Sep-13 18:09:55

I can virtually guarantee that there will be crosed wires here. Ask his teacher in the morning before you waste any more energy fuming about it. My DS came home one day last year and declared that he was 'Not anything in the Christmas play. Not Joseph OR Mary!' but he was actually one of the narrators. Every child in the Infants had a speaking part. I would be very surprised if (a) the cast had been decided yet and (b) your son had been excluded unless, as mentioned upthread, you have withdrawn him from collective worship and they've assumed that this means withrawal from the play as well.

TheProsAndConsOfHitchhiking Tue 17-Sep-13 18:10:03

I luff Mumsnet grin

Souredstones Tue 17-Sep-13 18:10:08

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Dominodonkey Tue 17-Sep-13 18:10:24

You have get to answer the question. Have you withdrawn him from collective worship? If you have then the school is being entirely reasonable to assume you would not want your child to take part in a nativity.

Buzzardbird Tue 17-Sep-13 18:10:25

My spidey senses are detecting some T-Rexing coming on...

YoureAllABunchOfBastards Tue 17-Sep-13 18:10:36

And hymns are a pretty vital part as well.

YouTheCat Tue 17-Sep-13 18:10:38

He said that they said that I said that he couldn't be in the play hmm


You have said then - if you have removed him from religious teaching and the Nativity comes under that heading. You can't have it both ways.

Souredstones Tue 17-Sep-13 18:10:49

buzzard mine too

SantanaLopez Tue 17-Sep-13 18:10:55

So he's right- you did tell the school that he couldn't be in the Christmas play.

TheProsAndConsOfHitchhiking Tue 17-Sep-13 18:10:57

Is Louise the new Sharon?

It sounds like miscommunication, for which you and the school are both partially responsible, Orchwold. I think you need to have a CALM discussion with the school, and make it clear that you are happy for him to be in the Christmas play. It is weeks 'til Christmas - there is plenty of time to rectify the situation, and include him in the play, if you deal with this calmly, politely and quickly.

Yes, go and have a chat with the teacher, and ask her how this situation can be resolved.

YoureAllABunchOfBastards Tue 17-Sep-13 18:11:41

Maybe they could do one of those modern nativities - with the T-Rex in it.

Sharon might do the refreshments, if you ask her nicely.

MrsOakenshield Tue 17-Sep-13 18:11:49

ah, just read your last post. So you have withdrawn your child from collective worship, and so unsurprisingly the school, and you son by the sound of it, think you don't want him involved in the Christmas play due to, I have no doubt, the religious aspect of this particular production.

Well, what did you expect? You can't expect the school to second-guess your inconsistencies. Either you don't want him involved in anything of a Christian nature, or you do. Make your mind up.

BrokenSunglasses Tue 17-Sep-13 18:12:11

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YoureAllABunchOfBastards Tue 17-Sep-13 18:12:21

Louise is Sharon's helper.

AvonCallingBarksdale Tue 17-Sep-13 18:12:32

He said that they said that I said that he couldn't be in the play

Oooh, that's made my head hurt!!
Perhaps calm down a bit, don't go to school fumming and try and find out what has actually happened, because, you know if little Orchwoid has gone in and said "My mum say I can't be in the play because we don't believe in God and all that shit", that might have something to do with it. Either way, find out - calmly.

CwtchesAndCuddles Tue 17-Sep-13 18:13:01

When you removed him from any act of collective worship you have by your own actions prevented him from taking part in the Christmas play.

You are being very hypocritical to complain about the school when they are complying with your wishes.

FlapJackFlossie Tue 17-Sep-13 18:13:36

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RedHelenB Tue 17-Sep-13 18:13:40

Well if he doesn't go to assemblies or sing hymns or hear/say prayersthen they are falling in with your wishes & YABU. Christmass plays usually feature religious songs (carols) & if it is a Church school in all likelihood paryers.

FannyMcNally Tue 17-Sep-13 18:14:16

Actually I'd be bloody fumming that they didn't know the difference between me wanting him out of assembly but wanting him to have a massive part in the Nativity. It's obvious isn't it?

kali110 Tue 17-Sep-13 18:14:16

Youve said you don't want him forced to have to do anything religious but you're upset that they've have followed your wishes? It sounds like they've just followed what you have said to them. Maybe its just because your angry, but you do sound really rude, i don't think they will be very helpful if you go in there with that attitude. People are usually more obliging if your nice.

Dominodonkey Tue 17-Sep-13 18:14:41

Unless the Christmas play is entirely secular and makes no mention of Christmas at all then yabu.

I do feel sorry for your son though.

Why do you ban him from assemblies and singing? Are you worried he will catch religion?

DaddyPigsMistress Tue 17-Sep-13 18:15:02

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mrsjay Tue 17-Sep-13 18:15:06

FUming really al the other kids are going to be in the play except your boy, calm down speak to the teacher dont fume I cant see a teacher leaving out one child just because, your son has got the wrong end of the stick

AvonCallingBarksdale Tue 17-Sep-13 18:15:53

I've got to ask, OP, is it a church school??

Can people stop making fun of a spelling mistake in the OP's posts. We all knew what she meant, and this mocking is Poor Form.

Groovee Tue 17-Sep-13 18:16:52

You've removed him from religious worship, then that includes the nativity. You can't pick and choose which parts he can partake in.

Redlocks30 Tue 17-Sep-13 18:17:30

This thread is hilarious! Please do go and fumm at the school tomorrow and let us know the outcome. Would you be letting him attend any of the Christmas assemblies where they learn all the parts and the songs or would he be learning them through osmosis?

HangingGardenofBabbysBum Tue 17-Sep-13 18:18:19

At Christmas all the family comes round and we have a chicken or a turkey dinner and give all the presents out from Santa Claus.


But what exactly are you celebrating?

mrsjay Tue 17-Sep-13 18:18:19

Oh just go and stomp up to school be very very angry and watch the teachers escort you out the door and have your cards marked as a trouble maker, and god and shit is only good at Christmas you are taking the piss right ?

Buzzardbird Tue 17-Sep-13 18:18:35

Will Sharon or Louise be getting the Christmas tree in the car?

SpottedDickandCustard Tue 17-Sep-13 18:18:56

This is definitely a wind up.

No one could be so dim as to wonder why a child who has been withdrawn from collective RELIGIOUS worship has not been given a part in the Christmas (ie RELIGIOUS festival) play!

Here have my first ever biscuit

ihearsounds Tue 17-Sep-13 18:19:03

Really. You cannot understand why he cannot be in the play?

Either your child is included in learning about religion or isn't.. You cannot chop and choose. Before you made a decision you should have thought about the ramifications of missing the assemblies, which will include all religious celebrations including the nativity, Easter parade and other celebrations that I cannot think of.

AvonCallingBarksdale Tue 17-Sep-13 18:20:10

No-one's mocking - fumming is the new hamwidge!

MrsOakenshield Tue 17-Sep-13 18:20:23

'I've got to ask, OP, is it a church school??'


sparkle12mar08 Tue 17-Sep-13 18:20:43

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penguin73 Tue 17-Sep-13 18:21:16

You have asked for him not to take part in religious activities, they are abiding by your wishes - so what is the problem?!

LynetteScavo Tue 17-Sep-13 18:21:22

I am so angry that I can't work out whether I'm being reasonable or not.

You Are Being Unreasonable.

iloveweetos Tue 17-Sep-13 18:21:53

As a child I would've been annoyed at mum if she didnt allow me into assemblies. I loved singing hymns and I'm not Christian.
But yeah YABU

greenbananas Tue 17-Sep-13 18:22:07

Perhaps they will relent and cast him in the past of the Angel Gabriel, so he can tell everyone the good news about Jesus being born as a baby.

After that, the school might not take you very seriously when you say you don't want him taking part in assemblies.

BrokenSunglasses Tue 17-Sep-13 18:22:57

Apparently so Sparkle!

I know I'm probably being mean, but I'm sure I can't be the only one pissing myself laughing at this - real or not!

namechangesforthehardstuff Tue 17-Sep-13 18:23:34

I don't think that you'd spell couldn't couldn'tt if you were misspelling it. Still less dcouldn'tt. I think it'd be the apostrphe that'd lose out in that particular word.

Just saying...

Turniptwirl Tue 17-Sep-13 18:23:54

If you withdraw a child from religious education and assemblies, then why on earth would anyone think you'd want him to take part in a religious play?

I disagree with children being withdrawn anyway, as I find the general message is a good moral education and learning about faith gives children the tools to make up their own mind when they're old enough. I'm not religious btw. BUT if you are going to do that then FFS be consistent!!! You can't refuse all things religious except Christmas! What the actual fuck?!

I hope the school are fuming right back at you but suspect they will limit themselves to eye rolling and a picture of you on the staff room dart board

First ever biscuit

JamieandtheMagicTorch Tue 17-Sep-13 18:26:23

Personally, I'd always take the word of a 7 year old about what's going on, get all furious and make loads of assumptions.

Fumming indeed

SoupDragon Tue 17-Sep-13 18:26:44

The part of Herod is probably appropriate for an atheist.

HappyMummyOfOne Tue 17-Sep-13 18:27:01

So you are willing to overlook the religious elements so little Johnny gets to be in the play yet exclude him from assemblies that often celebrate acheivemet etc. Love to be a fly on the wall in the staff room when you have ranted at the teachers for carrying out your wishes.

SilverStreak7 Tue 17-Sep-13 18:27:18

Ive not read it all but did you say all the children in the SCHOOL have a part ? Or the children in his class ? As somebody said, he could be helping with scenery etc .. . Its very rare by the way every child in a school has a part . . Most of my four have had years when they had no part to play in any Christmas play./nativity . .

JamieandtheMagicTorch Tue 17-Sep-13 18:28:29


We atheists don't generally like to kill babies

How very dare you


Littlefish Tue 17-Sep-13 18:29:03

The school have followed your exact instructions. They are not mind readers. How on earth were they supposed to know that you meant your ds could not attend any religious events, pray or sing religious songs, EXCEPT the Christmas play, which is a religious event, with religious songs, and probably prayers.

You need to go in, explain your extremely flakey reasoning and hope that they understand (I have to say, I think you are being ridiculous! Either you have strong feelings about his religious education or you don't. At the moment you are just picking and choosing the bits that suit you.)

Tiredmumno1 Tue 17-Sep-13 18:29:25

I am actually speechless.

Silver read the rest wink

FlapJackFlossie Tue 17-Sep-13 18:29:38

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JamieandtheMagicTorch Tue 17-Sep-13 18:30:22


What an extremely organised school - sorting out the Christmas play a week after the start of term. Or is my school very disorganised?

ilovesooty Tue 17-Sep-13 18:31:14

You withdrew him from religious worship to keep him away from God and all that shit.
Now you're moaning because he isn't cast in the school Christmas play. Nativity plays generally feature God and all that shit.

Not only do I not see what your problem is I'm astonished that you see nothing wrong with your attitude.

YouTheCat Tue 17-Sep-13 18:31:33

As an atheist, I had faith in my dd's reasoning abilities that she'd be able to work things out for herself because she learned about all different religions.

She had a very interesting conversation with a doorstepping creationist last week. grin

AintNobodyGotTimeFurThat Tue 17-Sep-13 18:34:01

I would just phone them up and say to them that yes, you don't want to your child to go to the assemblies but you really would like him to do the school play, as it would mean a lot to him.

They have got their wires crossed, so don't go all guns blazing. Hopefully they will be able to place him in there somewhere. Who says there has to be 3 shepherds?

Ruprekt Tue 17-Sep-13 18:36:25

Wish I had had popcorn when I started reading this thread.

Tis fab!gringrin

Hope the OP has stopped fumming! shockPmsl

JamieandtheMagicTorch Tue 17-Sep-13 18:37:47


Before I did that, I'd check that they said what he said. 7 year olds aren't always that reliable

if only you had a friend at the school that you could talk to and check the facts

i don't think it is reasonable to decide to remove him from religious lessons and assemblies and then expect him to take part in a play

ilovesooty Tue 17-Sep-13 18:38:19

I don't see why he should get a part in
the school play if he's withdrawn from collective worship. If his mother asks for him to be cast she is a hypocrite.

sittinginthesun Tue 17-Sep-13 18:40:21

I was sure this was going to be reading levels thread. Far more fun.

OP, deep breath, calm down, decide whether you actually want your dc to be involved in religious stuff, and speak nicely to school.

If you go in all guns blazing, you will just look stupid and they will probably laugh at you.

FannyMcNally Tue 17-Sep-13 18:40:31

No, the school haven't got their wires crossed, they just haven't done the 'Mind Reading for Teachers' workshop yet.

Eggsiseggs Tue 17-Sep-13 18:43:42

Yeah Jamie, wildly impressed that the Christmas play is all cast!

Haven't even marked my books for tomorrow yet...

<misses point of ridiculous thread>

mrspremise Tue 17-Sep-13 18:49:56

Christmas? CHRIST mass. It's all about JC, you know, "God and all that shit". As a Christian I am offended by you thinking that your son has an inalienable right to a 'part' in the celebration of the Holy Nativity if you have taken the, frankly unusual, step of withdrawing him from all religious education on the imagined tenuous grounds of coercion. Please have a biscuit and calm down.

Buzzardbird Tue 17-Sep-13 18:50:58

Couldn't he play the part of the dead wasp?

Sindarella Tue 17-Sep-13 18:55:25


LIZS Tue 17-Sep-13 18:56:32

Are you sure he wasn't told he couldn't be in it unless you said differently ?

sittinginthesun Tue 17-Sep-13 19:03:17

Bet Louise is loving this. smile

FreeWee Tue 17-Sep-13 19:03:33

Love the idea of the Christmas play being cast 3rd week of term. And apparently there'll be some Jesus and Mary and shit what with it being a Christ-mas play and all. I'd be properly fumming at all that religious nonsense getting in the way of a good turkey dinner.

GhoulWithADragonTattoo Tue 17-Sep-13 19:05:34

I'm guessing the teacher has mentioned this so early so that you are aware of the significance of withdrawing your child from religious activities.

Euphemia Tue 17-Sep-13 19:10:42

Unbelievable! shock

treaclesoda Tue 17-Sep-13 19:15:11

this is my favourite thread ever. grin

JulieMumsnet (MNHQ) Tue 17-Sep-13 19:16:28


What a rainy night! smile You remember our talk guidelines? No? shock Comment on the post, not the ^poster.

Alisvolatpropiis Tue 17-Sep-13 19:17:44

Yabu. But hilarious. I'd like to believe it's deliberate but I suspect not.

How are we pronouncing fumming? Rhymes with erm bumming? Gumming?

ilovesooty Tue 17-Sep-13 19:25:06

The OP is guilty of demonstrating an aggressive self absorbed attitude with potential for hypocrisy. This is evidenced through her posts.

I hope that is within MNHQ guidelines.

NewNameforNewTerm Tue 17-Sep-13 19:25:55

AIBU. I told the school I don't agree with my child being involved in religion and worship and they've put him the nativity play. He has to sing songs that celebrate the birth of the son of god and acting about worshipping him. They know I don't want him doing this. I am fuming....

Have my very first biscuit

siblingrevelry Tue 17-Sep-13 19:25:56

Reap & ye shall sow...

Think I read that somewhere, vaguely recall a big book of 'god & all that shit'.

If you get arsey with your school about them trying to give your child a religious education, then don't expect it not to bite you on the arse when you want him paraded in the religious-themed play.

Why did you send him to a church school in the first place? Did it by any chance have the best results in your area, and therefore you thought you might pick the bits you like, but opt out of the 'shit' stuff?

exoticfruits Tue 17-Sep-13 19:30:19

He doesn't go to assemblys because I don't want them to teach him about religion or make him be forced to pray or sing any religion songs. But I never said he dcouldn'tt be in the Christmas play because that is a really important part of the school year in my head. I am still fumming that they didn't ask me first and just told him. It is so rude.

You really can't have it both ways. The Christmas Play will be teaching him about religion, it will certainly have religious songs and it is quite likely to have a prayer. Do you mean to say that you don't want this normally, but only when you are in the audience. Might your DC not be a bit confused? hmm

exoticfruits Tue 17-Sep-13 19:34:09

There is also the point that he would then need to go into assembly to practise the religious songs.

Dam58 Tue 17-Sep-13 19:34:57

I dont know hw many times i've gone into school and ended up with egg on my face.... Thats with my oldest. Children are SO PLAUSIBLE that ive even gone in a couple of times with my younger dd...much to my shame

If i were you i'd be very calm and non commital and have a casual convo!!

GoofyIsACow Tue 17-Sep-13 19:38:39

<fumms> has just made me squeak with laughter!!!

lisylisylou Tue 17-Sep-13 19:46:09

How can you celebrate Christmas the clue is in the word Christ otherwise it would be known as mass (oops). Isn't Santa also known as saint nick who was a revered catholic bishop in Myra in Turkey during the third century who was canonised after his death! Oh no I'm gumming now (bloody phone! But liked the autocorrect version so keeping it in lol) just too much religion aaaaarrrgggghhhh

sparkle12mar08 Tue 17-Sep-13 19:46:19

Why the hell was I deleted?! I did not comment on the OP specifically, I said that in general some people genuinely are really stupid. And they are. I notice you haven't deleted the post I quoted either!

JulieMumsnet (MNHQ) Tue 17-Sep-13 19:48:30


Why the hell was I deleted?! I did not comment on the OP specifically, I said that in general some people genuinely are really stupid. And they are. I notice you haven't deleted the post I quoted either!

Pointless to delete a post which repeats a PA and not the post. Give us a few minutes though, hey!

sparkle12mar08 Tue 17-Sep-13 19:53:28

So I repeat - why was I deleted, given that I did not comment on the OP specifically? I said nothing that was outwith the guidelines.

southbank Tue 17-Sep-13 19:54:00

Interesting thread op!
If you come back can you answer some questions for me please?
-is the school a faith school?
-are you atheists?
-why do you celebrate Xmas?
But most importantly
-who the hell is Louise?

ilovesooty Tue 17-Sep-13 19:55:29

sparkle I agree.

JulieMumsnet (MNHQ) Tue 17-Sep-13 20:00:29


So I repeat - why was I deleted, given that I did not comment on the OP specifically? I said nothing that was outwith the guidelines.

We do delete posts where a PA that we have been deleted previously or we are about to deleted has been written into the text.

lljkk Tue 17-Sep-13 20:01:58

This thread has been good entertainment. Ta to OP. smile

sparkle12mar08 Tue 17-Sep-13 20:02:41

To clarify then, I was not deleted for what I said, but for what I quoted, yes?

TBH, I wonder almost every day whether people really are that stupid when I read any number of posts on here. And then I remember. Yup. They are.

ilovesooty Tue 17-Sep-13 20:04:47

I've seen plenty of stuff on deleted posts allowed to stand on subsequent posts. It isn't always deleted.
I've seen far worse examples of PAs than anything on this thread as well.
I think sparkle is within her rights to ask.

JulieMumsnet (MNHQ) Tue 17-Sep-13 20:05:08


To clarify then, I was not deleted for what I said, but for what I quoted, yes?

TBH, I wonder almost every day whether people really are that stupid when I read any number of posts on here. And then I remember. Yup. They are.

Yup, we do delete posts that quote a PA from another post. It would be pointless to delete one and leave the other.

JulieMumsnet (MNHQ) Tue 17-Sep-13 20:06:51


I've seen plenty of stuff on deleted posts allowed to stand on subsequent posts. It isn't always deleted.
I've seen far worse examples of PAs than anything on this thread as well.
I think sparkle is within her rights to ask.

We're often reliant upon people to report any posts that break our talk guidelines to us as we may not see them otherwise. We have replied to sparkle.

BrokenSunglasses Tue 17-Sep-13 20:06:55

Mine wasn't a personal attack either though!

Granted, it wasn't very nice, but it wasn't a personal attack.

Oh well, this thread gave me a good laugh, so I won't fumm.

ilovesooty Tue 17-Sep-13 20:07:19

<self censors next post>

LegArmpits Tue 17-Sep-13 20:07:30

This is marvellous.

sparkle12mar08 Tue 17-Sep-13 20:09:07

I think we've safely managed to get across what we were saying Broken grin

BrokenSunglasses Tue 17-Sep-13 20:09:31


Sparklymommy Tue 17-Sep-13 20:10:45

My children are at a church school. That is because I CHOSE to send them there. M children love assembly and "religious shit" and have questioned the bits that don't sound plausible to them. They have also learnt about other religions and visited other religious buildings etc. It is important to learn about all cultures so that you can

* make informed decisions about your own beliefs

* understand others beliefs and cultures and accept them in a decent way

* not be bigoted/judgemental or scared of other people's ways of life.

Religion is a big part of many people's lives and forms the basis of many stories/traditions.

Excluding religious education from your child's school experience is likely to leave gaping holes in their understanding of the world around them and could leave them unable to be sympathetic to others. It is not a decision that should ever be taken lightly.

Rant over, sorry. Oh and have another biscuit

sparkle12mar08 Tue 17-Sep-13 20:10:56

Do you think the thread will spontaneously combust if MNHQ have to delete their own posts? grin

mrsjay Tue 17-Sep-13 20:13:50

redardless of faith school or not ALL school do a little bit of jesus grin I think it is madness to remove children from R E anyway, but to remove them to when it suits is just bonkers,

MrsDeVere Tue 17-Sep-13 20:14:11

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

ilovesooty Tue 17-Sep-13 20:14:38

I'm still posting and deleting here. I'm feeling really annoyed TBH.

mrsjay Tue 17-Sep-13 20:14:50

mrsdv I read that in Catherine tates Nans voice grin

Nettymania Tue 17-Sep-13 20:15:37

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ChampagneTastes Tue 17-Sep-13 20:16:07

I am very much enjoying this. grin

Salmotrutta Tue 17-Sep-13 20:23:31

Oh my!

And to think I nearly missed this! shock grin

I think you should get down to that school and give 'em what for OP.

Oh yes.

exoticfruits Tue 17-Sep-13 20:24:42

The only children that I have know to be withdrawn from assemblies are at least consistent - they don't suddenly make an exception for Christmas because the parent hasn't realised it is all about the very things she has withdrawn them from!

Nettymania Tue 17-Sep-13 20:25:54

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

exoticfruits Tue 17-Sep-13 20:26:48

OP could go in, with all guns blazing saying 'why have you obeyed my instructions? Didn't you know that you were supposed to ignore them for Christmas?'

AlpacaPicnic Tue 17-Sep-13 20:27:47

Ooh MrsDV got deletified! She is my mumsnet 'voice of reason'... I'm intrigued

Btw this thread is hilarious... Yes dear, you are being unreasonable. Very, very unreasonable.

KatyTheCleaningLady Tue 17-Sep-13 20:33:44

OP, perhaps your son can put on a one-man Festivus play?

friday16 Tue 17-Sep-13 20:35:47
VegasIsBest Tue 17-Sep-13 20:38:39

Best thread ever, except for TidyDancer and the wedding. Maybe the OP could offer to decorate the school hall beforehand?

WireCat Tue 17-Sep-13 20:40:51

'Kin 'Ell

If you remove your child from the religious assembly, it stands to reason that he won't begin the Christmas play. This is because it will have a religious stance.

Unlike the plays my elder 2 were in when they were in Primary. My son was cast as Spider-Man. We remember him from the bible. grin

WireCat Tue 17-Sep-13 20:41:13

Be in. Not begin.

MrsDeVere Tue 17-Sep-13 20:43:02

Why did I get deleted? I only said BOLLOCKS shock

mrsjay Tue 17-Sep-13 20:45:00

omg you did get deleted maybe reported you should have said Cunty instead Mrs dv

Blissx Tue 17-Sep-13 20:48:11

Oh please, MumsnetHQ, please add <fumm> as a new Smiley! Haven't laughed so much in ages!

hamptonedge Tue 17-Sep-13 20:50:54

They are already talking about the Christmas production??? We don't start talking to the chidlren about it until the beginning of December as they start to get hyper. Hopefully he will have got the wrong end of the stick, you wouldn't leave one child out and can never have too many travellers, stars, angels, musicians, trees etc!

Souredstones Tue 17-Sep-13 20:51:19

Fumming sounds like a dodgy sexual practice

sittinginthesun Tue 17-Sep-13 20:51:47

MrsDV, is that a first? I don't think you've been deleted before?

stiffstink Tue 17-Sep-13 20:52:13

My sister once had the role of Cilla Black in the Christmas play. That was fucking weird.

aristocat Tue 17-Sep-13 20:54:55

What would a fumming smiley look like? hmm

Could it be .... smoke coming out of ears/ head explosion?

kungfupannda Tue 17-Sep-13 20:56:01

Oh for goodness sake, OP, please don't go barging into the school and have a hissy fit. They're doing what you asked them to do - and they're setting out their expectations at an early enough stage for you to review your decision if you feel that it is going to impact negatively upon your child.

Very sensible of them imo.

I know people with strong views about religion in schools. All have spoken to the school, considered the matter carefully, including all the implications for their child's inclusion in various events, and reached a decision about how to proceed. It sounds as if you just jumped into a decision without actually working out what it meant.

If something is important enough for you to make a decision that, to some extent, singles your child out in the school environment, then it is important enough to be consistent about.

All you're doing by picking and choosing is teaching your child that your non-religious beliefs are just as moveable and negotiable as some people's religious beliefs.

JulieMumsnet (MNHQ) Tue 17-Sep-13 20:58:13


Why did I get deleted? I only said BOLLOCKS shock

We'll send you a mail.

Salmotrutta Tue 17-Sep-13 21:03:15

I've been deleted several times <proud> and I've never had an explanatory e-mail sad

JulieMumsnet (MNHQ) Tue 17-Sep-13 21:08:57


I've been deleted several times <proud> and I've never had an explanatory e-mail sad

If you're ever unsure then you're welcome to ask.

Groovee Tue 17-Sep-13 21:24:12

Juliemumsnet... What does PA mean?

BlackeyedSusan Tue 17-Sep-13 21:26:10

julie, you should ask for pay rise based on this thread... or a new computer when yours overheats... grin

JulieMumsnet (MNHQ) Tue 17-Sep-13 21:30:58


Juliemumsnet... What does PA mean?

Personal attack, like if I said 'JulieMumsnet is fucking stupid', that's a PA (and I'm not deleting myself for this!)

JulieMumsnet (MNHQ) Tue 17-Sep-13 21:32:19


julie, you should ask for pay rise based on this thread... or a new computer when yours overheats... grin


MrsDeVere Tue 17-Sep-13 21:33:41

I got the email.
I think you misinterpreted me MNHQ

It is a load of bollocks. That might be rude but its not what you think it is.

As if


AlpacaPicnic Tue 17-Sep-13 21:39:02

:: polishes MrsDVs halo for her::

LilRedWG Tue 17-Sep-13 21:39:24

Well, if you have said he cannot sing any religious songs or pray then he's not going to be able to participate in a religious play is he?

Christmas plays are about a religious festival - lovely for you that you celebrate Father Christmas, but the school play will be about Christ's birth.

LilRedWG Tue 17-Sep-13 21:41:04

MrsDV said BOLLOCKS? Shocking. ;)

Oh she's a pretty foul-mouthed wee bizzum, that MrsDV - didn't you know? [innocent]

TwoMuchTwoYoung Tue 17-Sep-13 21:44:19

JulieMumsnet don't be so down on yourself.
Would you like to talk about it?

rockybalboa Tue 17-Sep-13 21:45:03

Talk about drip feeding and being a bit bloody dense. You have withdrawn him from assemblies because you don't want him taught about religion or singing religious songs yet to avoid 'any of that God shit' (and despite not being vaguely religious myself I think that is a very offensive thing to say on a public forum) and you don't understand why they have told him that you said he couldn't be in the play? Really?! Think it through a bit..

greenbananas Tue 17-Sep-13 21:46:03

Perhaps we should start a whole new thread about whether Christmas is a religious festival or not.

thistlelicker Tue 17-Sep-13 21:46:57

If the op gets any more biscuit she will have a whole
Packet! Maybe she can share them with Jesus or Mary?

MrsOakenshield Tue 17-Sep-13 21:47:35

I'm really disappointed the OP hasn't returned.

PenelopePitstops Tue 17-Sep-13 21:48:55


Please come back tomorrow op

insummeritrains Tue 17-Sep-13 21:49:11

OP, YANBU. I would be absolutely fumming too, if i were you. In fact, just reading your post makes me fumm on your behalf. I am going to have to have a sit down with a cup of tea and a hamwidge to calm myself. I would have a swim in my pool but Pudseyduck and Sharon are already swimming in it.

LilRedWG Tue 17-Sep-13 21:51:46

So, JulieMumsnet, if I complain that I find, "don't believe in God and all that shit" to be offensive and inciting religious hatred, will I totally bugger up this thread?

<<<whistles innocently>>>

MrsDeVere Tue 17-Sep-13 21:53:59

I am not sure but I think I have just been personally attacked by SDT


MidniteScribbler Tue 17-Sep-13 21:54:53

It's been a long time sinced I've had a good fumming. I hate being single.

Moi? Didn't you see the innocent face? grin

LilRedWG Tue 17-Sep-13 21:56:28

Off to bed now, but this thread has cheered me up massively.

MrsDV - you behave now!

HoopersGinger Tue 17-Sep-13 21:57:51

Is this a reverse thread? Is OP the child who doesn't want to be in the play and is considering a ruse. He's going to tell the teacher his mum said no then tell his mum that the teacher said no because he told her his mum said no and he is here to gauge if this would make a cross section of mums "fumming" and blow his blag.

This explains why OP has not returned and is indeed fast asleep snuggled in a Skylanders onesie..

This is not very well thought out son.

youbethemummylion Tue 17-Sep-13 22:00:43

actually woke the DH up with laughing at fumming and when I explained about fumming he didn't even have the decency to find it funny! I am absolutely fumming!

nameuschangeus Tue 17-Sep-13 22:00:48

Maybe you could ask if he could have a small part as a fummer mummer. That is festive but not religious.

Where has the op gone?? Or has she just realised that Christmas is actually a religious festival and not just about Santa Claus and getting pissed???

I guess rockybalboa that she couldn't imagine that anyone would want to introduce something like religion into a party like Christmas, who would have guessed, next they'll be trying to introduce it into Easter too...

Turniptwirl Tue 17-Sep-13 22:04:37

I wonder if this kid will sneak into church as a teenage rebel while his friends sneak into pubs?

PelvicFloorClenchReminder Tue 17-Sep-13 22:07:54

I would like to nominate this thread for "Sometimes I Feel Really Sorry For Teachers" of the week.

thistlelicker Tue 17-Sep-13 22:08:38

Would be interesting
To know
If op celebrates Christmas, Easter and all major Christian holidays!

McNewPants2013 Tue 17-Sep-13 22:09:40

this thread is funny.

Can it go to classics smile

babybarrister Tue 17-Sep-13 22:30:13

At least the school are responding to your desire to avoid 'go and all that shit'. My parents put down they were not Christians and I was not allowed to be in Nativity even though they would gave been quite happy - I still yearn to be a shepherd grin

I'm late to this and must have missed out a few posts when I read the thread because I didn't notice anyone say the magic words. Allow me:

"interesting first post op"

"We atheists don't generally like to kill babies

How very dare you


I love MN. Really love it.

Also, as an atheist, I would actually like DD to be Mary in the Nativity (or a shepherd, I'm easy) and not be in assemblies. I'm loving the OP's work.

this thread is very much lighting the mumsnet touch paper isn't it?

how not to make a thread....

spelling mistakes
controversial opinions
drip feeding
pure idiocy

if i were the op i wouldn't be coming back either. hanging my head in shame.

NK493efc93X1277dd3d6d4 Tue 17-Sep-13 22:56:42

Yeah go on - perhaps march in there and demand to know why your child is the only child in the school to have been excluded from the Xmas play. Threaten to knock the teachers about a bit - that should do it! ....Are you for real?

Salmotrutta Tue 17-Sep-13 23:04:11

To NK493.... - how on earth do you remember your username for logging on?


NK493efc93X1277dd3d6d4 Tue 17-Sep-13 23:18:09

Hi Salmo - I don't! It just comes up pre-filled and I'd be lost if it didn't. Created by leaning on the keyboard whilst registering.

kali110 Tue 17-Sep-13 23:20:49

If you dont believe in jesus and all that shit ( im not much of a christian but even im offended lol) then why celebrate the birth of christ our saviour? Its kind of a big deal...

kali110 Tue 17-Sep-13 23:21:52

Nk49 never deleted your cookies!i have enough trouble remembering mine. I think i would cry if i had yours!

TheGoodAunt Tue 17-Sep-13 23:27:14

I am very confused. Who are Sharon and Louise?

Wuldric Tue 17-Sep-13 23:35:03

I don't know what fumming is, but I like the sound of it. Does it involve herbal substances that can be legally grown in the UK? Does it involve a pipe? If so, I am planning to come and fumm along with you. I don't believe in God either, if that is a pre-requisite for fumming.

QOD Tue 17-Sep-13 23:35:17

Love this thread

What a dreadful school, fancy doing exactly what you told them to do!

Worra fucking liberty!

I would be fumming that the school have left it until the middle of September to start preparing for the Christmas play. Surely they should be in dress rehearsals by now? shock

loving this
i swear this place gets worse smile

Orchwoid Tue 17-Sep-13 23:55:37

It was Louise who told me to come.Hello Louise :-) Which one of these will she be in? She just said try mumsnet because she could see me getting crosser and crosser at pickup.
I am going into the school tommorrow because I still think that this is so rude and they are horrible to not let him be in the play. I asked for no assemblies but this is different its like a whole term hes not allowed in. I expected this to be different because Mums are all supposed to stick otgether and stuff but this is like bitchs attacking everyone.

ilovesooty Wed 18-Sep-13 00:02:38

I asked for no assemblies but this is different


revealall Wed 18-Sep-13 00:13:18

Actually Christmas was Yuletide in Britian. Nothing about god and shit but just thank fuck the sun is coming back.

Put him in the play or they are discriminating against er pagans early Britian's etc tec

float62 Wed 18-Sep-13 00:14:30

Not all Xmas plays are centred around religion and I think that if the OPs understanding of the situation is correct, which hopefully it is not, that the school are losing sight of the fact that a 7yr old child is involved. Hopefully the OP will be discussing this calmly with the school tomorrow. And Orchwoid I do think that lots of mumsnetters have been meaner than they needed to be and that they too lost sight of the young child involved.

ukatlast Wed 18-Sep-13 00:25:07

As an atheist I would advise you to maybe reverse your position of withdrawing him from all collective worship for an easier life all round - all kids reach a certain age where they begin to question things...the tooth fairy, Father Christmas and often then Jesus/God etc exposing him to it, you simply allow him to make up his own mind in due course and knowledge of the bible whether you believe in it or not is part of our culture and useful when studying literature, history etc etc.

steppemum Wed 18-Sep-13 00:28:21

The reason you are getting such a hard time, is because you are contradicting yourself.
1. You do not want your child exposed to religious education
2. You are upset when he is excluded from something which is religious education

The school is respecting your wishes, and you are upset because they are respecting your wishes.

Christmas plays are usually totally religious, probably more so than anything done in assembly at any time during the year.

Please don't go in and shout at the school, who are doing EXACTLY as YOU asked them to.
I feel really sorry for the teachers who have to deal with you tomorrow, you are being very very unfair to them.

whenigrowupiwanttobeaunicorn Wed 18-Sep-13 01:11:03

Oh I hope Orchwoid's DS goes to my school!
I'm going to wait at the gate in the morning and watch for a fumming mother!
What do you think the outward symptoms of fumming might be? Just so I know what to look out for?

LoopyLoopyLoopy Wed 18-Sep-13 01:23:56

FWIW I agree with you, OP. I'd probably have a word and sort it out quietly, rather than 'fumm' (it's fuming, not fumming).

I withdrew myself from assembly as a child - got the grownups to write me a letter. There's a big difference between objecting to weekly religious ritual etc., priestly banging on, and the school nativity play, which is cultural as well as religious, and a nice bit of cute fun.

I'm sure if you explain that you want him involved they'll accommodate you. Surely that's the Christian way?!

kali110 Wed 18-Sep-13 02:15:04

Although i agree some posts have been a bit mean, you've gotten a hard time because people think you are being really unreasonable.
You asked for peoples opinions and now youre upset because nearly everyone doesnt agree with you.people wont always agree it doesnt make us all bitches.

lessonsintightropes Wed 18-Sep-13 02:22:12

Not a wind up, have a look at OP's other posts. This charming lady invited a disabled relative to a wedding who required a carer and didn't feed the carer. souredstones I think you and I might have quite different approaches to life and therefore would shy away from commenting, but think that you have answered your own question when you state that you don't want your child to be involved in the life of the school, including assemblies and all that God shit (or whatever) no room to bitch about him not being involved in the nativity play. If you're that bothered about it why not get up off your arse and set up an atheist free school? Plus point is as they are all parent led you can cast him in the leading role for every school play you decide to put on...

lessonsintightropes Wed 18-Sep-13 02:26:54

Apologies have realised am confusing the OP with another who has posted stuff and inappropriately referenced it here. Latter point of my post still stands though...

OP, I have only skimmed this thread, but can I just ask why do you send your DS to a religious school ?
It's clear you're not religious yourself, so why send your DC to a school which is religious then whinge about them ? confused

SugarMouse1 Wed 18-Sep-13 02:48:56

They did this to me at university.

It's was a small course and one lecturer orgnanised and cast a play for everyone except me.

I didn't care as in I didn't want to do it anyway, but it's hurtful to be publicly left out

And then, on the day of the play, I couldn't get out of going to watch it, and people kept saying to 'why aren't you in the play? Why aren't you in the play?' I wanted to die.

MammaTJ Wed 18-Sep-13 05:24:21

He doesn't go to assemblys because I don't want them to teach him about religion or make him be forced to pray or sing any religion songs. But I never said he dcouldn'tt be in the Christmas play because that is a really important part of the school year in my head. I am still fumming that they didn't ask me first and just told him. It is so rude.

CHRISTmas is about CHRIST! A very definite religious event. You have stated you do not want him to take part in religious activities. You now want to cherry pick which religious activities he takes part in.

It is not at all bitchy to point that out to you, just explaining that it is your decision, not the schools decision that has made him be left out.

ebwy Wed 18-Sep-13 05:34:13

better put my flame-retardant knickers on

in my family, we don't celebrate christmas. we celebrate the winter solstice, which christmas was based on. (we also celebrate summer solstice, and the two equinoxes as well)

I intend (after I persuade their father to talk sensibly to me about it, where he may change my mind) withdrawing my children from the "christian based worship" which assemblies are supposed to be about, as we are NOT christian.

However, I have no objection to them learning about religions, just being made to worship any god by default.

I won't object to my children being in a nativity play, any more than I would object to them taking part in a replica sedar meal for passover, or any LEARNING activity about any religion (except anything harmful to them, which I can't see a school doing anyway). I would object to them being told "this is what's true" about the beliefs involved. I would talk to my children afterwards to make sure they understood that it was just what some people believe.

I accept that the winter break is called the "christmas holidays" and thus the play most schools put on then is called the "christmas play" - while we aren't christian the fact is that all the countries which make up the UK are culturally christianity-based.

HangingGardenofBabbysBum Wed 18-Sep-13 06:38:31

My kid just started his new school
And they just think that I'm a fool
I'm fumming and I want a fight
I've never heard such a load of shite
First day, I sent him with a note
To say God and Jesus get my goat
And he's not allowed to be
In assembly or RE
Seems they're not right in the head
Cos they've only gone and said
That he's not in the nativity
That sounds like fucking arse to me
I'm going up school let then know
My boy deserves a part and so
He'd better get a leading role
Or so help me god I'll kick her hole
I hope it doesn't come to blows
But the ignorant cow does need to know
It's the Christmas play, so what has it
to do with God and all that shit?

Littlefish Wed 18-Sep-13 06:46:24

Orchwoid - the mums are "sticking together", but it would seem we are sticking together to try and help you see how unreasonable your behaviour is. Givens that the huge majority of the posters on this thread think that your anger and frustration is unwarranted, the sensible thing to do would be to take that on board, and consider how you speak to the school.

I'm sure that all you need to do is speak to his teacher about it and it will all be sorted. They are not being "rude" or "horrible", they are simply following your instructions.

Go in, be pleasant and think a bit more carefully next time about what yu actually mean before you make decisions about withdrawing your child from parts of the school day.

Bunbaker Wed 18-Sep-13 07:02:18

Orchwoid I think you started off on the wrong footing by being rude about religion ..."and all that shit". I don't care whether you are Jewish, Muslim, Jehovah's Witness, atheist, pagan, humanist, a witch or whatever, I wouldn't be rude and disrespectful of your beliefs, nor should you be rude and disrespectful of other people's beliefs.

You appear very narrow minded and not open to other views. By withdrawing your child from assembly you are giving the school the message that your child must be withdrawn from everything Christian, including Christian festivals.

You need to calmly talk to the teacher and ask why your son isn't in the play. Don't get angry as it won't achieve anything and you will just become known as a troublesome parent.

If it is a traditional nativity play how will you feel about your son being in it? How will you feel about watching it if you think it is a load of tripe?

rumpledtitskin Wed 18-Sep-13 07:03:23


Awesome, just awesome. grin

Morgause Wed 18-Sep-13 07:07:15

If you exclude your child from religious observances that would automatically exclude him from the Nativity - it's about religion. You can't pick and choose which religious bits you want. That isn't how it works.

If you go in with guns blazing you'll just make a fool of yourself.

VivaLeThrustBadger Wed 18-Sep-13 07:08:35

I will laugh if the OP gets him reinstated in the play and they cast him as Jesus or God. If I were the teacher I'd probably do that. grin

SoupDragon Wed 18-Sep-13 07:09:17

I still think that this is so rude and they are horrible to not let him be in the play

That may be but it is your fault. They are following your wishes when you removed him from god and all that shit collective worship.

JakeBullet Wed 18-Sep-13 07:15:37

Just lol at this thread.

The OP removes her child from collective worship and religious stuff.
Her child tells the school he is not allowed to be in the Christmas nativity play....which will be religious.
The OP promptly throws her teddy out of the pram and storms up the school full of self righteous indignation.

You couldn't make it up.

Am more concerned that the OP cannot even SEE that she has caused this.

exoticfruits Wed 18-Sep-13 07:26:45

I am not terribly clear on all this Orchwoid - is your intention to go into school and say that you have changed your mind and he will be going into assembly and learning about Christianity until the play is produced?
Will he be back in for Easter if you discover they are doing a fun thing?

NewNameforNewTerm Wed 18-Sep-13 07:27:46

With that approach the OP is in for a long, rough ride during her children's school career.
"Mums must stick together and agree with me because mummys = always good and right and schools = bad and wrong." Not sure where that places us teacher mums!

forumdonkey Wed 18-Sep-13 07:33:49

OP still does get the contradiction and hypocrisy grin hilarious.

Don't forget to let us know how your 'fuming' complaint goes. Poor, poor DC

YouTheCat Wed 18-Sep-13 07:34:10

Quite clearly we are all wrong and the OP is right about this monstrous school. hmm

I'd bet Louise was saying the same as us.

NewNameforNewTerm Wed 18-Sep-13 07:36:12

Wish it was my school is some ways. It would really entertain us when the head tells of the meeting at the next staff meeting.

YoureAllABunchOfBastards Wed 18-Sep-13 07:38:12

I bet Louise meant Netmums....

YouTheCat Wed 18-Sep-13 07:38:44

hahahaha grin

SoupDragon Wed 18-Sep-13 07:40:16

I can't help thinking that Louise isn't much of a friend if she said "Go and post about it on Mumsnet - use the "AIBU" topic, you'll get a lot of support there...'

Chelvis Wed 18-Sep-13 07:41:01

Bravo to HangingGardenofBabbysBum, that is hilarious!

exoticfruits Wed 18-Sep-13 07:42:09

At least it will give them all a good laugh at school. smile

Morgause Wed 18-Sep-13 07:42:38

Parental frothing at the mouth was always good playtime entertainment in the staffroom.

OP, please don't make an idiot of yourself, your child will never forgive you and the other mothers will remember it forever.

TheFallenNinja Wed 18-Sep-13 07:57:52

Bitches attacking everyone.

Sounds like a channel 5 movie.

Luff it

SissySpacekAteMyHamster Wed 18-Sep-13 08:09:08

Sorry OP, but unless you explain your wishes fully to the school, how on earth are they supposed to know what is going on "in your head"?

Exclusion from religious activities includes the Christmas play whether you like it or not.

You are going to look like a right nutter if you go in all guns blazing. How are you going to answer the question of why he isn't allowed religious teaching but you are happy for him to be taught about the nativity?

BrokenSunglasses Wed 18-Sep-13 08:12:07

OP, if you want to be able to watch your son take part in the Christmas play, what are you going to do if they say a prayer? They have always done that at Christmas plays at my dc's primary school, because it's CofE.

What about the songs they might sing? Are you going to go through the lyrics beforehand and only allow him to sing songs that don't directly talk about God or Jesus?

You have to decide one way or the other whether you want your child fully involved in school or not. You cannot withdraw your child from religious worship and still expect him to be in a CHRISTmas play.

Please come back and let us know what the school said. Please.

SilverApples Wed 18-Sep-13 08:22:23

You wanted him withdrawn from anything religious, and that is what they've done.
I don't see the problem myself, as a teacher, I've supported children who were Exclusive Bretheren, Muslim and JWs etc who were not supposed to take part in anything religious at school.
They were involved in creating scenery and props, but only non-religious ones, and only in consultation with parents.

ilovesooty Wed 18-Sep-13 09:23:43

You can't expect to withdraw him from worship and him still to take part in the cite fun bit.

BeckAndCall Wed 18-Sep-13 09:24:33

And my nomination for best post EVER on mumsnet goes to hanginggardens - rush and see on page 10 of this thread everyone!!

Brilliant work, hanging. I can imagine it set to music.........

mrsjay Wed 18-Sep-13 09:32:05

I am just impressed you are all still managing to post and not been deleted well done people keep it up grin

mrsjay Wed 18-Sep-13 09:34:54

r no assemblies but this is different its like a whole term hes not allowed in. I expected this to be different because Mums are all supposed to stick otgether and stuff but this is like bitchs attacking everyone.
Add message | Report | Message poster ilovesooty Wed 18-Sep-13 00:02:38

It isnt different it is all a little bit of jesus just on stage with tea towels (do they still wear teatowels) you have removed your son from religion at school you do not want him hearing about god you do not want him praying you do not believe your son needs to learn about god but it is different when it comes to a stage and the baby jesus eh

GoofyIsACow Wed 18-Sep-13 09:46:12

I am still laughing at <fumms>

Kinnane Wed 18-Sep-13 09:56:27

There are parts around the Christmas play which he could be in. Perhaps helping with the staging / lighting / makeup/costumes

OP,You don't believe in God and you don't want your son to learn anything in relation to religion. I hope you will think again - why they are doing this. I believe the school are following your instructions to the letter.

GoofyIsACow Wed 18-Sep-13 10:00:17

Perhaps OP's DS could run across the stage dressed as Ricky Gervais and perform the david brent dance, that way they can be sure there is no 'godnshit' involved... Also he wouldn't stick out like a sore thumb <inclusive>

Seriously though, learning about god isn't the same as believing in god?

PrimalLass Wed 18-Sep-13 10:02:39

I asked for no assemblies

Assemblies in school are about more than singing hymns. they are for school news, awards etc. Do you really, really want him missing out for years?

mrsjay Wed 18-Sep-13 10:04:17

Assemblies in school are about more than singing hymns. they are for school news, awards etc. Do you really, really want him missing out for years?

^ ^ that really assemblies are an important part of a school day they get to know what is happening

PrimalLass Wed 18-Sep-13 10:06:02

OK have just posted this in a very inappropriate thread by mistake (laughing too much and pressed the wrong button), but here goes.

*It's the Christmas play, so what has it
to do with God and all that shit?*

This should be one of the songs in the play itself.

forumdonkey Wed 18-Sep-13 10:12:13

wondering if OP is still ranting and fuming at the injustice of the school grin hmm blush What did you say OP? Did you demand he play Jesus?

Topseyt Wed 18-Sep-13 10:13:08

The OP is one of those people who are impossible to please.

Schools can do nothing right in such cases. Who on earth would ever want to work in a school?

Mind you, I came from a teaching background. My dad was a headmaster and my mum a teacher. Parents such as this provided endless entertainment, not just in the staffroom, but at home in the evening too.

mrsjay Wed 18-Sep-13 10:14:21

I have a vision of the teacher looking like this [confsued] as the op is ranting on then she is asked to leave the building

mrsjay Wed 18-Sep-13 10:15:08

people do go a bit loony over school plays though there has been countless threads about it, this is the best by far

Dobbiesmum Wed 18-Sep-13 10:25:01

This thread has cheered me up so much after a shit day so far!!
OP, just retract your request. It really is the easier option, DD's school assemblies are minimally achristian, a little prayer and a hymn then onto the school news and awards.
There's a chance that the play won't even be religious, I'm still slightly shell shocked 2 years after our school put on Snow White and the Seven Jockeys one Christmas... It was erm... Different...
Oh and I'm Pagan btw. We celebrate Yule and Christmas to accommodate everyone in the family! The season goes on for days in this house grin

Bakingtins Wed 18-Sep-13 10:26:31

hanging you are a genius.

OP you are either withdrawing him from collective worship or you are not. It is not pick and mix. Simples.

BionicEmu Wed 18-Sep-13 10:28:05


Bravo! <claps manically> grin

Definitely best post ever. Although I fear you've set yourself a precedent there, we will need more poetry on bizarre threads now!

cjel Wed 18-Sep-13 10:28:26

Have you been in to school OP?
Reminds me of the time my dad was a bank manager and wrote to ask a customer with no money going into her account to stop writing cheques. She stormed into the bank and shouted at him 'what do you mean I can't write cheques, of course I can, I have all these cheques left in my cheque book'smile

Helpyourself Wed 18-Sep-13 10:30:18

How did it go this morning,OP?
Tilty head and smiley- gwan, gwan

Dobbiesmum Wed 18-Sep-13 10:37:09

Oh and if you're worried about your Ds being indoctrinated in any way, my DS spent his whole primary school career going to assemblies and stopped believing in Santa and God in the same year.
He is however ambling towards certain Pagan beliefs grin

Orchwoid Wed 18-Sep-13 10:37:20

I saw Louise this morning and she said she isn't in this one which is good because the clouds hang out of all your arses. I have made an apointment to see headteacher after school because my boy is not getting all this shit.

SoupDragon Wed 18-Sep-13 10:41:39

it is your fault

Buzzardbird Wed 18-Sep-13 10:44:36

Those were my thoughts Soupdragon, Louise has resorted to recommending MN as she didn't want a full on barny at the school gates whilst she tried to explain to OP that she is in fact in the wrong.
OP, you really need to learn to see the bigger picture and maybe not make knee jerk reactions before you have explored the full significance of your actions. Learning about other people's faiths is a good thing and helps your child to have a wider understanding of the world and the people in it.
You don't have to believe to be able to observe and take part...just like Christmas for thousands of families.

GoofyIsACow Wed 18-Sep-13 10:45:25

I wondered why i couldn't get my trousers to fit!

mrsjay Wed 18-Sep-13 10:46:35

I bet louise is pissing herself laughing at you OP she knew you would get a bashing and be told YABU is louise really your friend

Buzzardbird Wed 18-Sep-13 10:47:15

What the hell does the clouds hang out of all your arses mean? confused

Buzzardbird Wed 18-Sep-13 10:48:22

No...I've checked, it's definitely piles hanging out of my arse

Buzzardbird Wed 18-Sep-13 10:49:44

Oooo, I get it. It's the MNr's who put talc on their fanjos, when they fart there is a cloud!

impecuniousmarmoset Wed 18-Sep-13 10:51:49

OP aside, I'm amazed by the 'why did you send him to a religious school if you aren't religious' comments that always crop up in these discussions. Does anyone really think that the state school admissions system allows such choices?! In many areas, it's a religious school, private school (possibly - most of them are religious too) or home ed - hardly a realistic set of choices.

OP, just ask for him to be put in the Xmas play. Atheists have as much right as Christians to rank inconsistency.

cjel Wed 18-Sep-13 10:53:48

is it really possible to separate assemblies at all other times of the year to the christmas 'assembly' which takes the place of a play?

How has OP managed other school christmas 'assemblies'

I have checked and have nothing hanging from meconfused

sparkle12mar08 Wed 18-Sep-13 10:56:53

Yup, as I thought. Some people in general, not the OP you understand of course, oh no not her no siree, really are that stupid.

<covers arse in case of deletion>

ilovesooty Wed 18-Sep-13 10:57:12

If she goes into school with that attitude she doesn't deserve a minute of any teacher's time.

MotherofBear Wed 18-Sep-13 10:58:32

Hanging, you are freaking AWESOME!!

ilovesooty Wed 18-Sep-13 11:00:53

sparkle perhaps the person in charge
at MNHQ this morning will trust you to be sufficiently adult and intelligent to understand and comply with the guidelines.

Buzzardbird Wed 18-Sep-13 11:02:12

Oh sparkle you norty norty girl! grin

BeKindToYourKnees Wed 18-Sep-13 11:03:10

Sparkle grin

Morgause Wed 18-Sep-13 11:06:05

I think OP will be leaving the head's office with her arse in her hand, cloudy or not.

sparkle12mar08 Wed 18-Sep-13 11:06:45

Having just looked at my arse in my running leggings, I think I'm going to need a considerably bigger cover...

Katnisscupcake Wed 18-Sep-13 11:06:51

Sorry, nothing to add, other than I've woken the dogs up from laughing so much...

Hanging, just fantastic...

As you were...

ToomuchIsBackOnBootcamp Wed 18-Sep-13 11:09:10

Oh DO come back and tell us what the Head said, won't you OP?

I think Louise meant Netmums too. Or she is sparkle grin


Cerisier Wed 18-Sep-13 11:11:40

Hanging that is a great poem grin.

Clouds out of arses- what an alarming phrase. Piles, farts or perhaps an obscure reference to buttocks on show over trousers?

GoofyIsACow Wed 18-Sep-13 11:12:49

MN is giving me a stomach and cheek muscle workout this morning!!!

Sorry for posting about another thread but it emerges that following my request on site stuff for a fumming emoticon that fumming has an altogether different meaning entirely. I hope OP isn't still fumming when she goes into school.

There would be more than clouds coming out of her arse!

LilRedWG Wed 18-Sep-13 11:16:31

Is it wrong to hope that OP's son gets cast as the baby Jesus?

TeenAndTween Wed 18-Sep-13 11:18:32

OP - seriously. Please Don't go into the school complaining and full of indignation. Go in and simply say:

"I feel there has been a mis-understanding. Although I am not happy for my child to take part in religious assemblies, I am quite happy for him to take part in other Christmas/Easter activities, including a Christmas nativity with religious themed songs. I did not realise you would interpret withdrawing from assembly to mean withdrawing from the Christmas play."

tbh The school will probably be thankful as it is a real pain for them to manage a single child whilst the rest of the class/year/school are preparing for a play.

If you go in all guns blazing you will annoy them, as they really will believe they are following your wishes by him not being involved. You really don't want to destroy your working relationship with the school over a misunderstanding.

Dawndonnaagain Wed 18-Sep-13 11:18:54

Brilliant, hanging

Do please come back and let us know how the meeting with the headteacher went, won't you Orchwoid

Leopoldina Wed 18-Sep-13 11:19:00

It's at times like this that one realises how very difficult a head teacher's job is.

GoofyIsACow Wed 18-Sep-13 11:19:07

3bunnies perhaps Always would be beneficial other jizz absorption products are available

hippo123 Wed 18-Sep-13 11:21:15

whilst your with the head I would discuss what else you have excluded your ds from. There's a boy in my ds class who is a JW who doesn't make any Christmas decorations etc, I think you'll find your child won't be either. Personally I don't think you can have it both way. Let us know how the meeting goes.

LIZS Wed 18-Sep-13 11:22:12

where's the op ? hmm

kali110 Wed 18-Sep-13 11:25:56

Do u not think op if so many people think you are wrong then you may need to reassess?

Xmasbaby11 Wed 18-Sep-13 11:26:15

Best thread ever!

kali110 Wed 18-Sep-13 11:26:47

The school will prob just do what op says jyst to svoid the arguement

ilovesooty Wed 18-Sep-13 11:27:59

I don't really think she should have the option of the Christmas play if she's withdrawn him from worship.

ilovesooty Wed 18-Sep-13 11:29:29

kali if she's going to be bullying and aggressive I sincerely hope not.

Dobbiesmum Wed 18-Sep-13 11:32:13

Oh God I just googled Fumming...

OP you might also find that if your son's school do class assemblies for parents to watch that he will be excluded from these too.

Kinnane Wed 18-Sep-13 11:34:21

I feel sorry for the boy! Seven years old ....

friday16 Wed 18-Sep-13 11:36:42

Dobbiesmum indeed, Googling for for fumming is interesting.

Which gives a certain piquancy to this thread on Netmums.

SaggyOldClothCatPuss Wed 18-Sep-13 11:41:54

Okay! Which one of you feckers is Louise? <<casts eyes over thread>>
Did you send the OP here for our entertainment? You BAD girl! hmm wink grin

spence82 Wed 18-Sep-13 11:42:06

The bullying in here is awful. She was obviously upset and wanted to let off some steam but how dare she make a spelling mistake! We are all so middle class and intelligent to never make a spelling mistake.

Cut her some slack.

BlueGoddess Wed 18-Sep-13 11:46:32

Ewwwww googling fuming is almost as bad as dragon butter - you have been warned!!!!! shock

impecuniousmarmoset Wed 18-Sep-13 11:47:06

Hippo why can't she have it both ways though? As long as we atheist parents are forced to send our children to religious schools in this country, it's absolutely right that we should be able to pick and choose which aspects of religious worship in a school we can live with (making Xmas decorations and singing carols) and which we can't (fervent prayers to Jesus in assembly every morning).

wingardiumoffthesofa Wed 18-Sep-13 11:48:34

At my DC's primary school, the christmas play was a huge deal and preparations started early in the term. We had nursery with reception, yr 1 & 2, 3 and 4, 5 and 6. The plays would be run over the course of a day for the parents and all the kids would see the dress rehearsals. Significant amounts of school time in the autumn would be spent rehearsing, learning the songs, lines, costumes, staging etc - obviously with changes in emphasis as they got older.

The plays from year 1 up would always be proper plays with proper scripts and always very much looked forward to by children and parents alike.

BUT, the choice of plays was very varied - retelling of fairy tales, plays with a moral message, plays with a specific Christmas theme. So I've seen the Bossy Christmas Fairy, Santa's on Strike, Handsel and Gretel, Sinderella and many more. I think the choice of play had far more to do with the quality of the scripts, length, number of key parts etc than to what degree it reflected a specifically Christmas theme.

Most school assemblies I attended included a prayer addressed to God and no other deity, even though it is not a church school. So I guess if I'd had strong feelings about it (I didn't), I could have excluded my children. Some people did.

My point is that if I HAD excluded my kids from assemblies I would ABSOLUTELY have expected the school to talk to me about inclusion in the Christmas play rather than just assume they weren't to be involved. I'm not sure the OP said it was specifically a nativity did she? Just that it was the Christmas play - just as ours were always referred to as the Christmas plays regardless of the subject matter.

Dobbiesmum Wed 18-Sep-13 11:49:55

impecunious she can't expect the teachers to read her mind though. If the usual way is to withdraw a child from religious aspects of school life surely they will automatically assume (and most parents will mean) she meant the whole lot unless she specifically says "but I would like him to be in the school play"?

impecuniousmarmoset Wed 18-Sep-13 11:50:40

ilovesooty I'd quite like the genuine option to send my child to a secular school in my local area. While that doesn't exist, then the least they can offer is a choice within the school as to what I am and am not comfortable with. I'm pretty outraged at the implication that non-believers have to somehow adhere to a ridiculous 'all or nothing' attitude that is not in keeping with the cultural landscape we exist in. I don't believe in God, but do we have a Xmas tree and sing carols, and even go along to the odd nativity play? Of course we do, because Xmas is a major cultural event in the UK whether you are Christian or not.

ExcuseTypos Wed 18-Sep-13 11:52:21

It's too flipping early for Christmas Plays! They've only just gone back to school!

Morgause Wed 18-Sep-13 11:52:21

I cannot imagine any rational person would expect a child withdrawn for religious observances to be in a Nativity play.

Panto - fair enough. But the Nativity is all about religion FFS.

impecuniousmarmoset Wed 18-Sep-13 11:52:23

Sure Dobbies, and that's why I suggested that she just go in and ask politely for him to be put in the Xmas play. I was objecting to the idea lots of people are putting forward that it is somehow wrong and hypocritical for her to even ask for this to happen. It isn't.

ilovesooty Wed 18-Sep-13 11:54:17

Most ordinary state schools don't have fervent prayers to Jesus every morning.
And the OP has communicated in a thoroughly objectionable way
IMO she deserves all the criticism she got

impecuniousmarmoset Wed 18-Sep-13 11:54:19

Nope, Morgause, the nativity is a brilliant story that those from all religions or none might wish to participate in.

impecuniousmarmoset Wed 18-Sep-13 11:56:45

Ilovesooty - ours does! It's our standard local state school - our catchment school - but religion permeates every aspect of the curriculum, and they certainly do prayers daily, and not just in assembly either. Hopefully most C of E schools are not this crazily observant, but sadly from what I read on here, many of them are.

I agree the OP shouldn't have flown off the handle, and is not exactly helping her case, but some of the stuff on this thread (esp about her spelling) is really objectionable.

MidniteScribbler Wed 18-Sep-13 11:57:30

If the OP complained to me, I'd cast her son as baby Jesus. grin

Dobbiesmum Wed 18-Sep-13 11:57:35

I get you, I do see the Christmas play as being different to other things tbh, I've had to dress up mine as Angels, shepherds, a bookie, trees and various woodland creatures in the past without being particularly concerned about the fact that I personally don't believe in it.
Going in calmly and correcting the teachers would have been the way to go rather than the way the OP seems to be handling it..

Morgause Wed 18-Sep-13 11:58:07

Not in my experience in teaching (40 years). I can't remember a single child withdrawn from religious stuff ever taking part in a nativity play - or any parent wanting it.

ilovesooty Wed 18-Sep-13 11:58:44

Why would you even want to go to a Nativity play or sing carols if you're an atheist? Is it because you like a good tune and want to see your kids being cute?

impecuniousmarmoset Wed 18-Sep-13 11:59:32

Ilovesooty - yes, that's it exactly!

Bowlersarm Wed 18-Sep-13 12:00:14

I'm with Morgause.

The nativity play has to be about the most religious event of the year. How can you want to be a part of it if you want to withdraw your child from all other religious events? Just a little hypocritical to cherry pick.

impecuniousmarmoset Wed 18-Sep-13 12:01:20

Sooty, there was a thread the other day about a woman not wanting her DD to sing religious choral music in her sixth form choir. The replies were something along the lines of 'pretty much the entirety of the choral tradition is religious, and the vast majority of atheists are entirely happy singing it'. You can't expect that just because I don't believe in God, I therefore entirely divorce myself from 2000 years of the cultural traditions of this country!

ilovesooty Wed 18-Sep-13 12:01:27

A C of E school is not a standard state school though.

impecuniousmarmoset Wed 18-Sep-13 12:01:55

Not of course that the UK has been Christian that long, but you get the gist.

ilovesooty Wed 18-Sep-13 12:03:40

Well enjoying a good tune and watching your kids being cute has nothing to do with centuries of cultural tradition.

impecuniousmarmoset Wed 18-Sep-13 12:03:59

Sooty if a C of E school is not a standard state school, what do you call it then? It's our catchment school - the only one - and most years, such is the demand for places, there is no option whatsoever to get a place at a different school anywhere in the city, even if you were willing to travel 3 miles to school. If local people want their children educated in the state system, then a C of E school is it.

SoupDragon Wed 18-Sep-13 12:05:15

A C of E school is a church school.

impecuniousmarmoset Wed 18-Sep-13 12:07:15

I should think most parents enjoy the nativity because it's full of good tunes and has lots of cute kids in, whether they are Christian or not. And what do you mean, enjoying a good tune has nothing to do with centuries of cultural tradition? I have sung choral music at a high level for 20 years because I enjoy a good tune - ok, I can put it in more high-level terms than that - like that there's nothing on earth like the experience of singing the Mozart requiem in an amazing 200-strong choir, and that it is transcendental in a way that has nothing to do with whether or not I believe in Jesus, the holy Trinity or all of the other trappings of the established church. But a good tune is where it all starts!

impecuniousmarmoset Wed 18-Sep-13 12:08:24

Soup - er, yes! So what? if it's also your only option for a state education, then it's a standard state school. Leaving aside the fact that a daily act of religious worship is a compulsory part of the curriculum for all state schools...

ilovesooty Wed 18-Sep-13 12:08:59

It's a church school where the Diocese influences the policies and procedures and you would expect religion to be factored in.

A state school which is not a church school is very different. I taught for years in both.

youbethemummylion Wed 18-Sep-13 12:09:55

have just googled fumming! Im so upset I was going to try an include fumming in conversation today but I have now decided against it. Who knew there was a word for that!

LozzaCro Wed 18-Sep-13 12:10:50

"Tue 17-Sep-13 18:05:10 - Can you swap him for a westlife cd?"

Literally PMSL!! wine

ilovesooty Wed 18-Sep-13 12:12:00

The daily act of worship in standard state
schools often has a very tenuous link with religion.

spence82 Wed 18-Sep-13 12:12:19

Don't you think the fumming thing has gone on long enough?

SoupDragon Wed 18-Sep-13 12:12:36

Soup - er, yes! So what? if it's also your only option for a state education, then it's a standard state school.

Except it isn't a standard state school. It may be your local school and the only option but it is not a standard state school. It is a church school and tied into the church.

impecuniousmarmoset Wed 18-Sep-13 12:12:51

I know that they are different, Sooty, but the question is, so what? if I don't have the choice of which one to go to it's not terribly relevant is it?! Many people's experience of state education in this country involve a compulsory religious environment, surely that's the relevant point, not nit-picking over whether it is 'standard' or not.

SoupDragon Wed 18-Sep-13 12:13:46

DDs primary is a standard state school with no religious affiliation at all beyond the requirement of a "broadly Christian" act of worship. We would not have got into our local C of E school because we don't go to church.

MulberryHag Wed 18-Sep-13 12:14:26

Tidydancer and Gluezilla beware! I can see this hitting FIVE threads!!

SoupDragon Wed 18-Sep-13 12:15:07

Not sure why you're saying "so what?" when you asked Sooty if a C of E school is not a standard state school, what do you call it then? confused

impecuniousmarmoset Wed 18-Sep-13 12:15:21

And before anybody says 'oh but you can withdraw from religious worship' - actually I think it's a hobson's choice. Withdraw from religious worship, and have your child excluded from a major part of the life of the school, including things like a nativity play that all the children will be excited about for months at a time. Hurray, that's precisely the kind of choice I think parents should have to make if they are entitled enough to want a state education for their children! Oh, wait.

MulberryHag Wed 18-Sep-13 12:15:35

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

impecuniousmarmoset Wed 18-Sep-13 12:16:53

Ok, soup - well, I was trying to point out that it's a 'standard' state school in the sense that it is the local school that you can either go to, or home school. I wasn't trying to imply there were no non-religious schools, or get into a nit-picking discussion about what 'standard' means.

exoticfruits Wed 18-Sep-13 12:17:08

I keep thinking that I must leave MN, it is such a time waster, and then a funny thread like this one comes along and reminds me why it so addictive!
I wonder if Orchwoid understands the point being made-it doesn't seem so or she would be using the appointment to tell the headteacher that she had changed her mind. I would love to be a fly on the wall when she says my boy is not getting all this shit.I do hope that OP reports back.

impecuniousmarmoset Wed 18-Sep-13 12:18:20

"DDs primary is a standard state school with no religious affiliation at all beyond the requirement of a "broadly Christian" act of worship. We would not have got into our local C of E school because we don't go to church."

- I'm delighted there was that choice available to you. In our city, in our catchment, in most years, there isn't.

ilovesooty Wed 18-Sep-13 12:18:53

There is not much fervent religious stuff going on in ordinary state schools.

And I still believe that if you withdraw your child from worship on religious grounds it's hypocritical to expect to coo while you watch him warble Away in a Manger while being third shepherd with a teatowel on his head.

YouTheCat Wed 18-Sep-13 12:23:20

This thread just keeps on giving. grin

As an atheist I would not expect to pick and choose aspects of a religion. You either go with all of it in a respectful manner (whether you believe or not) or you go with none.

impecuniousmarmoset Wed 18-Sep-13 12:24:34

ilovesooty, for crying out loud! I am talking about a situation, as is the OP, where our ordinary (local, no other choice available) state school IS fervently religious!!!!! Great and fantastic if there exist some, or even most, that aren't, but that is not the situation we are discussing here!

And I don't much care what other people think is hypocritical of me - it's my own conscience I need to live with, not yours.

impecuniousmarmoset Wed 18-Sep-13 12:25:25

YoutheCat, so you reckon it is morally wrong for me as an atheist to want to sing in the Mozart Requiem?!

impecuniousmarmoset Wed 18-Sep-13 12:25:59

...but not to want my child to give fervent prayers to JEsus every morning?

ukatlast Wed 18-Sep-13 12:27:43

I'm sure with an older child you can have a more flexible approach. At my very ordinary school in 1970s which was minimally religious there was a Jewish girl who sat on the balcony during assembly so if anything offended her she could immediately leave. She never did leave so I think her parents were idiots for having her constantly seated in such a different place. I doubt she was the one requesting it.

friday16 Wed 18-Sep-13 12:30:22

"but not to want my child to give fervent prayers to JEsus every morning?"

I'm as atheist as you like: unlike Dawkins, I'm not recovering from childhood fervour. However, I both attended myself and had children at CofE schools, and I'd be very, very surprised if "fervent" was a reasonable description. Leaving aside that the CofE is generally the opposite of fervent anyway, most schools are very careful to avoid getting into doctrinal disputes because very few will have more than a small proportion of parents who are anything more than cultural Christians.

impecuniousmarmoset Wed 18-Sep-13 12:31:39

Arg! Friday, I've been saying for what feels like the last 50 posts that fervent prayers to jesus is exactly what I am talking about in our local school. I'm delighted to hear that this isn't standard, but sadly it is our local reality!

YouTheCat Wed 18-Sep-13 12:31:46

No. But I think the OP should make a choice. Either her ds is taking part in religious activities or he's not.

impecuniousmarmoset Wed 18-Sep-13 12:35:29

Well, for the purposes of this thread, I'm arguing that I think she can be as hypocritical as she likes, if that's how you want to see it. She didn't choose the religious character of the school, so it's her prerogative to pick and choose which bits of it she is and isn't comfortable with.

ilovesooty Wed 18-Sep-13 12:38:09

I have difficulty believing that the worship
iin the only primary school in the area is so fervently religious. How are other faiths accommodated in the area?
And it seems that the majority agree that picking and choosing so that your child can be cute in a Nativity play isn't really a
desirable way of behaving.

friday16 Wed 18-Sep-13 12:40:38

that fervent prayers to jesus is exactly what I am talking about in our local school

Based on what index of fervour? Or is it that, as an atheist, you're nervous about them all? As ilovesooty says, if it's the only school in the area, how does it accommodate people from other faiths?

ilovesooty Wed 18-Sep-13 12:43:29

Of course hypocritical behaviour like this sends a very confused message to her child.

'We'll opt out of assembly because oof the God shit but we want to see you looking cute in the Nativity so we're changing our minds for that. '

MummyPig24 Wed 18-Sep-13 12:44:03

Oh how did I miss this yesterday? It's a belter of a thread. I wonder if op is still fumming today.

YouTheCat Wed 18-Sep-13 12:45:23

She is mummypig. I very much look forward to the update after she's seen the head.

Kinnane Wed 18-Sep-13 12:45:42

I wonder what the situation was last Christmas.

I think it will all end happily. Schools do everything in their power to make every child feel included.

Perhaps OP could give the school a list of events she would like her child included in.